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The Yards Between Us with RK Russell
2.9k Plays6 months ago
Bi+ book season concludes with a returning guest, the first out NFL player to identify as bisexual, RK Russell!. We discussed his new memoir, The Yards Between Us, and he also has a new men's journal out called Huddle. It was great to check in and see how RK's bisexuality and artistry have evolved since we last spoke in 2020 -- don't miss this one!
There's no bonus content for this episode, but you can still see the full video exclusively on Patreon. Thanks for your support, and see you next season!
Visit RK’s Website
Follow RK on Instagram
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Transcript
Celebrating Pride Month and Season Finale
00:00:00
Speaker
🎵
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Welcome to 2Bye, guys. Happy Pride. It is June. It's Pride Month. Happy Pride, everyone. I'm so excited to celebrate Pride here in Los Angeles. Well, here in WeHo this past weekend in Los Angeles for LA Pride next weekend in New York in a few weeks for New York City Pride. And wherever you're celebrating Pride and whenever. Happy Pride. I wish you the best.
00:00:38
Speaker
Today is our season finale, finally, of book season. I can't believe we finally made it to the end. We stuck in another whole season in between, the middle of book season. So we've really done two seasons back to back, or like a little sandwich one season inside the other. So thank you for bearing with my scheduling and the timing of all that.
Bi Literature and Upcoming Interview
00:01:02
Speaker
I really love both of these seasons, both interviewing the subjects from my book and chatting with them a year or two after we did the interviews for my book, Bisexual Married Men. And I also loved chatting with 10 other bi authors about their new bi books. And it's really amazing that we have 10 books. I mean, they're not all specifically bi, but 10 books that address these themes. And many of them are very specifically bi.
00:01:30
Speaker
And it's just great to have all this knowledge and experience sharing in the bi community. In a minute, I have an amazing interview with R.K. Russell. He's back on the show. He was here in season two. He wrote a memoir called The Yards Between Us and we're going to chat about it. It's an awesome interview. You don't want to miss it.
00:01:50
Speaker
And all of the interview is here today. It was a little bit of a shorter interview. So I'm just giving it to you all. No bonus content on Patreon as a finale treat.
Podcast Evolution and Host Changes
00:02:00
Speaker
Before we get to that, a few things. First, some changes to Two Buy Guys. The first change is the new logo. You may have already seen it. I kind of soft launched it accidentally by uploading it to the feed earlier last week. And if you've seen it, you know that this show is now Two Buy Guys by One Buy Guy.
00:02:20
Speaker
So we're still called two by guys everywhere when you search for us. That's the name of the podcast. I didn't really want to change the name. I didn't want to change the brand. I loved the simplicity of it. But at the same time, I started this podcast with Alex Boyd. It was amazing to begin it with him and I couldn't have started it without him. But he, as you all know, has moved on to a job at the Trevor project. He rare. Hopefully he'll come visit here and there. But
00:02:47
Speaker
He's not here most of the time. And so people kept writing me messages asking both of us questions. And it's just me mostly. So I just wanted to change the name slightly to reflect that. So we are two bye guys, bye one, bye guy. And what I like the most is that every other word in the title is bye. The feed is the same. The social media is the same. Nothing changes except the logo. And I love the new logo. It's redesigned.
00:03:16
Speaker
by the same person who created our original logo, my friend Caitlin Weinman. I love the job she did with this one. It looks so different from the old logo but of course in the spirit of the show and with the colors that we love, the bi colors and a little bit of yellow for Pan. So thank you Caitlin for making that logo and I hope you all enjoy the new name.
00:03:39
Speaker
Second, this is for the future. I'm not really sure how this is going to work yet, but just to tease it a little, there may be some changes to the podcast happening after the hiatus
Comedy, Coaching, and Podcast Philosophy
00:03:50
Speaker
I have coming up. I'm going to take a little bit of a break. This season has been incredible interviewing by authors, but it was quite a bit of work for me. I did have to read an entire book before every interview.
00:04:03
Speaker
And I'm glad that I did that, but I just can't necessarily do that every time. So moving forward, I am hoping to just have some more low-key conversations, not necessarily about someone's life's work, which we can certainly touch on and which will frame any conversation. But I want to just chat about stuff. I want to talk more about current events. I want to talk about buy stuff in the news and how it's impacting us as a community on an evolving basis.
00:04:31
Speaker
I want to talk about whatever is coming up for my guests in the moment and just explore new stuff. And at the same time, I'd like to infuse some more comedy into the show. As you have probably seen on social media, I've started doing stand-up comedy. I always had been wanting to do that for many years of my life.
00:04:50
Speaker
But I was always too scared. I never felt prepared. I actually think doing this show really helped prepare me because I've always kind of known how to write jokes. I've written comedy. I've written jokes for other people. But now that I'm very comfortable talking about myself and sharing anything about myself,
00:05:09
Speaker
Now I can write jokes for myself. And so it really couldn't have happened sooner. And this opportunity to talk to you guys and share stuff about myself really helped set me up to do this comedy stuff. And I'm really very much focusing on a lot of the same things that I talk about on this show, which is
00:05:29
Speaker
fluid sexuality, fluid gender, gay sex parties, and intimacy, and fetish, and kink, and polyamory, and non-monogamy, and all that kind of stuff. So stay tuned to my social media for more on the stand-up, but I'm hoping to infuse that a little bit into this show. And so if you know any bi comedians, let me know, because that would be cool to do some episodes like that.
00:05:57
Speaker
I also may infuse some of my coaching into this podcast because I'm learning so much by doing that and it feels so related to the work that I've been doing for this podcast and for my book over the past five years. You know, my coaching philosophy, like I do believe that we can create the world we want to live in, both on a societal level, which takes a lot of time and prolonged effort, but we can move that forward inch by inch.
00:06:24
Speaker
but also on an individual level. And that also takes work, but on that level, you might be closer to achieving the worldview you want than you think. Like I do believe that we can each control ourselves and how we view what happens to us and everything around us. And your own mindset and mindfulness are a huge part of getting comfortable with your sexuality and living authentically.
00:06:50
Speaker
And I know it's not easy because of everything we've been taught, which is often extremely homophobic and biphobic, and we internalize those things. But these are things that can be unlearned and new pathways can be wired in your brain that allow you to live a life that makes sense for you.
00:07:09
Speaker
And that's a theme of this podcast and it's a cornerstone of my coaching practice. So hopefully somehow I'm not sure yet, but hopefully you'll hear more about that kind of stuff and maybe even hear some live coaching on this podcast feed in the future.
00:07:24
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But before that happens, I will be taking a hiatus for the
Summer Hiatus and Coaching Offerings
00:07:28
Speaker
summer. I need to enjoy my pride. I need to take a little break after basically doing two seasons back to back. So stay tuned. I am not exactly sure when we'll be back. Definitely not in June, maybe later in July, maybe August, sometime toward the end of the summer.
00:07:45
Speaker
In the meantime, I am still coaching on an ongoing basis, and I really loved working with my first round of clients over the past few months. We've made a ton of progress. All my clients are moving forward with whatever they came in with. You can see a few testimonials on my website. If you want to hear from my clients directly, more testimonials will be coming soon because I am finishing up with a handful of clients. So I offer a nine session package. I recommend that to really
00:08:15
Speaker
get a full view of what's going on in your life, address those things, and move forward and make some plans and progress. I'm finishing up that nine session package with a bunch of clients who I started at the beginning with, so I have new spots available for new clients. If you are interested, head over to my website, robertbrookescohen.com. There you can book a free intro call for 25 minutes. We can talk
00:08:39
Speaker
about what's going on and decide if coaching with me would be good for you. And you can have a chance to get coached by me for a short time and see and feel what that would be like. I've already talked about how I coach in other episodes of this podcast. You can go back and listen for more if you want to hear me talk about that more. I believe it was the episode with Renee, the last episode of my book series, so about five episodes ago, the one that says Renee.
00:09:09
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That one has like a 20 minute explanation of my coaching philosophy and how it works. But basically, I'm going to follow you. I'm not giving advice. I'm following where you're going and we're addressing what's blocking you and
00:09:22
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your energy around this stuff because there can be external blocks and those are things we can work on in sort of practical ways. But a lot of the time, maybe most of the time, people think that the external blocks are holding them back and actually it's something internal. If you're not internally ready to move forward, there will always be external blocks.
00:09:45
Speaker
And when you are internally ready and you have addressed whatever is blocking you internally, you will find ways to deal with those external blocks. So that's the work of coaching. You can see my rates on my website. If you're ready to skip the intro call and just book a session or book the package, feel free. You can do that on my website as well.
00:10:04
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And I'm also offering group coaching. It is only $35 a session. We've been going up to two hours with up to six people. It's been going really great. Everyone who's come to my group sessions has really loved it and got a lot out of it. You get coached by me in front of other people for a short time, about 15 minutes.
00:10:24
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And then we kind of debrief and people reflect and we share. And it's really interesting for people to see other people get coached and to see people struggling with similar things and to watch them work through it. And so there's a lot of value in just coming and being present and watching other people get coached. I have been doing the coaching on Thursdays at 7pm Eastern, 4pm Pacific.
00:10:48
Speaker
I'm gonna stick with that for now, but I may add more if we can, if we start filling up. Check my website for more details, robertrookscon.com, and as always, follow at 2ByeGuys on Instagram for updates. Whenever I do group coaching, I will post on 2ByeGuys the week before and leading up to if there are still spots
Bi Men's Workshop and Minority Stress
00:11:11
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available.
00:11:11
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Also, in addition to group coaching, I'm developing a workshop. For now, it will be one time, but I'm hoping we offer it again if it goes well. I'm doing a workshop called Celebrating By Men and Beating Minority Stress, and it's going to be me and a guy named R. Scott Boots co-hosting this workshop. It'll be about three hours on a Sunday. I think it will be July 14th. Don't quote me on that.
00:11:37
Speaker
When we officially launch the signups for this, we will have an official date, but I think it's going to be July 14th. It's going to be sometime in July on a Sunday. The seminar will be different from my group coaching, which is very client focused and we go wherever you want to go. At this seminar, Scott and I will both sort of do a presentation and then we'll do a lot of group work to sort of discuss it and debrief it.
00:12:02
Speaker
I will be doing a talk, basically an overview of the landscape for bi men. I will be sharing some findings and research from my book, helping participants create awareness about the challenges and opportunities that show up in the daily lives of bisexual men. We'll talk about desires, possible roadblocks, and create practical steps toward living our most authentic lives.
00:12:24
Speaker
The second half of the workshop is R. Scott Boots's Minority Stress Self-Care Wellness Seminar. It's really great. It focuses on stress management techniques for minority groups like us and how to think about that and how to approach that. He did this workshop with By Request a year or two ago, maybe both a year and two years ago.
00:12:48
Speaker
And it was amazing. Everyone at Buy Request loved this workshop and got a lot out of it. And I think it's sort of the perfect complement to what I'll be talking about. He'll go through a series of exercises to help you better understand yourself and the journey and to create healthy self-care goals. So we haven't officially launched that yet, but follow too. Bye, guys. Check my website, robertbrickscohen.com.
00:13:12
Speaker
all of that info will be posted as soon as we officially launch signups in the near future. I think that's it. That's all I can think of. Again, happy pride. Remember there's no bonus content for this episode, but you can see the full video on Patreon and bonus content for all other episodes. I'll hopefully post some bonus clips during my hiatus as well. That will be kind of fun.
00:13:35
Speaker
If there's anything else you'd like to see on Patreon that I'm not putting there, please let me know. I'd love to put some more stuff on there. Thank you so much to everyone who has subscribed on Patreon. It really means so much to me, and it is really helpful in this podcasting industry, which is very much in flux, and the ad revenue goes up and down. The Patreon has been really amazing to help me keep this going, so thank you so much to all my Patreon subscribers. I love you.
00:14:02
Speaker
And now here is the season finale of book season. Enjoy my interview with the first out by NFL player. Now he's a writer, artist, poet, R.K. Russell. Thanks for listening.
00:14:29
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Welcome to Two Bye, guys. Welcome to the season finale of book season. We finally did it. We made it through my book. We made it through 10 other bye books. And I'm so excited. We have a repeat guest today back. He was here in season two. He's back now, four years later.
00:14:47
Speaker
My guest today is a published author and poet, an artist, a social justice advocate, and a former professional football player in the NFL, playing with the Dallas Cowboys and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. In August of 2019, he made history by becoming the first out active NFL player to identify as bisexual.
00:15:09
Speaker
And since then, he's written about his experience as a Black queer man in sports for The New York Times, The Guardian, The LA Times, Out Magazine, and many more places. His new-ish memoir, we're a little bit late, but his new memoir is called The Yards Between Us. It was published in 2023. And his new book, Huddle, a Men's Journal, is available now. Welcome back to Two Bye Guys, R.K. Russell. Hello. Hello, hello, hello. Thanks for having me back.
00:15:39
Speaker
Thanks for coming back. It's so good to see you again. We have to hang out in person someday since we live in the same city. The same city, but different cities. We've talked about this. LA is so spread out. I just learned that you're like over an hour away from me. So like, do we really live in the same city? Does that count? I don't know.
00:15:58
Speaker
But I also read in your book that during the pandemic, you went on the Wisdom Tree hike behind the Hollywood sign, Griffith Park a lot, which is I live right over there. I do that hike all the time and I get why you like that hike someday. Someday we'll do a hike together.
00:16:15
Speaker
So welcome back. I want to get right to it and get into your book because I love your book. I read the whole thing and we don't have too much time today. So last time you were here was August 2020. You were just starting to write and pitch that book and I remember you had mentioned that you wanted to write a memoir. So what's happened since then? Like what was the process of the book like and what did you learn about yourself as you wrote it?
00:16:46
Speaker
I mean, jeez, 2020, I'm like, I was just a little baby bisexual at that point. I was like a year out. Yeah, the dream of wanting to write a book was so romanticized in my mind and so glamorous. And I mean, it is those things, but it was also
00:17:04
Speaker
one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, and that's coming from someone who played multiple years in the NFL. It was a labor of love. It was both excruciating and extremely rewarding, I think, to be able to take a step back from your life and look at it in this very...
00:17:29
Speaker
intimate and reflective in deep and honest way is something that I want or I hope for everyone. It's very rare, especially as men, that we really stop to reflect on our traumas, on our past, on our relationships that we have with other people and with ourselves.
00:17:49
Speaker
especially as a bi person who lives in a heteronormative world or society who has compartmentalized so many parts of his own life and experience. It was so healing to see it all as a whole in this one piece of work. I realized that even in
00:18:05
Speaker
Outside of just my day in life, even with personal life and work, I've separated so many parts of myself. And this book physically made me put them all together and see me as one whole person. So it was extremely healing.
00:18:22
Speaker
And you know, there's days when you get up and you don't want to write and there's days where you stay up and you can't stop writing where it becomes kind of a compulsion. But it's all in all, I think, is one of the greatest accomplishments in my life as well. And I want to write another book.
00:18:37
Speaker
I have continued to want to write books, so it has not scared me off. Anyone that has a desire to write a book, I say go for it. It will only make you a better person and have a better understanding and relationship with yourself, which I think we all could use.
00:18:54
Speaker
Yeah, that's amazing. I love that. And I'm glad to hear all that. And I know what you mean. The writing the book is like, Oh, my God, it's a years long process. You don't even realize like, how much time it actually takes to sit down and do it, and then revise it and then revise it again. But I did what you're saying makes so much sense. Because I, I found it to be quite an easy read in the sense that you're so direct and you're so like,
00:19:24
Speaker
open and vulnerable, that it's just a page turner. Like it really is so clear. And so whatever work you did to get that clarity and write it so simply, you know, you're not obfuscating, you're not hiding things. So I really liked, I really liked the style of it. It's just very, very direct. Which I appreciate, which is also, that's also like a whole nother thing that's kind of jarring as a writer. Like you said, we spend years sometimes writing books, and then like,
00:19:54
Speaker
I put this book out in May 16, 2023. May 17, people were DMing or messaging or commenting me, just finished, couldn't put it down. I'm like, it took me a year to write this. You read it in a day. I'm like, it's the biggest compliment, but I'm also like, wow.
00:20:14
Speaker
Right, that's amazing, but it's also like, you could take a little more time and digest it a little more. I'm like, I don't know, read it again? I don't know. Like, what's the next book? I'm like, okay, this is why. But no, thank you, I do appreciate that.
00:20:31
Speaker
That's funny, that's funny. Actually, I wanted to ask you, and I want to get to that idea of bringing all the parts of yourself together. That's the big theme I noticed that I loved. But before that, you mentioned the response. We talked last time, it was about a year after you came out very publicly in this ESPN article, first by football player.
00:20:54
Speaker
Now we're about a year out from when you published this book. We're a little late, but better late than never. What has the overall response been? And you really let people in in an even bigger way than just saying you're by. You let them into a lot of other stuff and personal stories and trauma and healing. What's it been like to share that and how has the response felt? The response has been
00:21:24
Speaker
So amazing and so welcoming for me, which was kind of the same thing with coming out. I mean, people really have gotten to know me on a deeper level. And in my experience, when you allow people to know you, you allow people to love and support you. When you allow people to know you deeply, you allow for them to care for you deeply. And that's kind of what has happened with me and my story. It's also going beyond like the headline, right?
00:21:52
Speaker
So many times in the limited representation that we have for queer people, for people of color, for women, the affirmation or the coming out or the grand stand is like the ending.
00:22:07
Speaker
I even felt that with my coming out. It was like I came out and it was like, you did the thing and okay, it's over. And that's not the case. A lot of it doing the thing, yeah, there's a process to get there, but that's like the beginning. There's beauty in telling the process, which is this book. And there's also so much work to be done after, which is still the life I'm pursuing now.
00:22:26
Speaker
And it's important to humanize these topics. It's important to see people beyond the headlines. And I think books allow you to represent people that are underrepresented and allow people that don't look like you or know your experience to kind of have that
00:22:42
Speaker
experience. You might be tweeting about something that you don't have the experience of, and this allows you to come at that with more empathy. It's no longer just a talking point. You see it as a person, a heartbeat, something that lives and breathes and bleeds. That's something I think, as a society, we could all use more of, is empathy. The response has been great.
00:23:07
Speaker
That's kind of like all the little things. My book has also been optioned by Sony Pictures and Gabri Union to be turned into a TV show. So that's kind of, I say go beyond the headlines. I'm like, that's kind of like the big headline of this. And I'm excited. I'm excited to take this story and bring it to a different medium and continue to be a storyteller. I'm co-executive producing with Gabri Union, co-writing. So I also get to write more.
00:23:34
Speaker
in a different form. So the book continues to change my life. The more that I share, the more my life continues to grow. And that's just been awesome for me. It's been amazing.
00:23:45
Speaker
That's so awesome. Yeah, I love the second act for you or second out of many and like I had heard that news about about it getting picked up, you know for development and as I'm reading it, I'm like, yeah, I could see this as as a series like there's so many vivid scenes and I don't know how you're gonna write it, but I can imagine it jumping back and forth to the childhood stuff and then the NFL stuff, you know, if you need ideas, let me know.
00:24:14
Speaker
The thing about coming out, let's talk about that because it also makes a lot of sense. And I like the way you phrased it, like it's allowing people to know you and love you deeper. And I think what before we've come out, it often feels like this burden on us that we have to overcome. And we don't often think about the positive
00:24:36
Speaker
you know, effects and the joy on the other side. And the gift it is that you're giving to other people. And so I have a lot of quotes from your book that I want to, you know, I'll just share a few of them, but I liked how you wrote about coming out and you wrote the process of living my truth was gradual. And you wrote about sort of practicing by coming out to strangers or coming out on a date here and there as bisexual, and that you're saying it
00:25:06
Speaker
with pride, each exposure gave me confidence. And it's like this, I identified with that step by step process. And then what I want to ask you about is, is coming out to your mom, because it's such a beautiful scene. And there's a part earlier in the book where you're not ready to come out to her. And you said, you know, you still didn't fully understand it. And so you weren't ready yet to share it, which makes sense. Like it's hard when you're still figuring it out.
00:25:33
Speaker
But then later, the ESPN article set a deadline for coming out to your mom. You had to do it before she found out from the press, which was also basically my coming out story. I recorded a TV show coming out, and it was coming out six months later. So then I had six months to tell everyone. So can you tell us a little what it was like coming out to your mom and tell us
00:26:02
Speaker
or to other people in general, but that story was really beautiful. Yes. I mean, to speak to the first half, coming out being this gradual thing, I do believe as humans, we are creatures of experience. The reason coming out is so hard is because before we even understand truly who we are or really have
00:26:24
Speaker
Not even understand it before we have the vocabulary to say we're bisexual or to claim an identity or to be educated about this identity because there's very few and far resources for us as young people to be educated on it.
00:26:39
Speaker
where they don't allow us those resources when we're young. We have so many experiences that are innately homophobic that are innately telling us this is wrong. You don't want to be this that are misogynistic that are sexist. So you already have all of those built up negative experiences. My attempt as an adult who was
00:26:59
Speaker
determined to then claim my identity with pride was to create, hopefully, positive experiences. To have these micro dates or experiences of claiming identity and being proud and, you know, not every date had to be magical for it to be a positive experience, but just someone being like, okay, that's cool.
00:27:17
Speaker
What else? What do you like? Tell me more about yourself. And that's in and of itself to understand that you can say the thing and still be seen as human and whole and loved and accepted and the ground won't open you up and swallow you whole or everyone in the restaurant isn't looking at you. And it's not this big, scary, daunting thing that life exists beyond this fear.
00:27:44
Speaker
And like you said, that there is joy and love and connection beyond that. That there's actually this wall that you've put up that isn't only detrimental to you, but to everyone in your life. Because you're not allowing them to get to know you or the light that shines in you is not being shined on everyone. So that was kind of my gradual attempt. Coming out to my mom and setting the deadline is kind of
00:28:06
Speaker
how I was living my life back then, I very much was like, collision course planning, which, you know, we do the best that we can with the things that we have. So that was going, looking back, I'm like, okay, probably not the best, but we got there. And, you know, me and my mother,
00:28:31
Speaker
We are so close. She's my best friend. We talk every day on the phone for at least an hour minimum. She loves me inside and out. And I wasn't a question of whether she would love me or not. I think for me, it was just, I felt almost guilt that I hadn't shared it with her earlier. It felt like,
00:29:00
Speaker
I don't know, she had done so much for me and we had shared so much. It felt at one point irrelevant and also at one point like I had held it so long that I had made it this thing. But you know, it was time. And when I finally did share, it was on a phone call the day before this huge interview was about to drop. So I was also like, of course she would go into shock. It's like,
00:29:27
Speaker
you hear this big thing about the person that you're closest to in your life that you literally held in your womb and created, then the whole world's about to know in less than 24 hours than you know. So it was really the perfect storm. But we got there.
00:29:45
Speaker
She, you know, I don't want to spoil things if anyone hasn't read the book yet. She, her initial reaction was not the greatest. It wasn't the worst. But she had concerns as a mother. I tell people all the time at that point, I was 27. It had taken me 27 years to get to that point. I had given my mother like five minutes of a phone call to try to get to that point.
00:30:07
Speaker
You know, she wasn't going to do the 27 years of work I had done in that five minutes, but I will say my mother did fortunately come around quickly. I'm so fortunate that we're able to show a journey.
00:30:23
Speaker
that a parent cannot say the perfect thing and can learn and can leave with love and can come back and be stronger than ever. And I think to me, that's more valuable because that's a little more real and a little more relatable for a lot of people. Of course, you would love to say the perfect thing, but we're not perfect people.
00:30:43
Speaker
No, that's what I thought too. And that's what I thought was so beautiful about it was that like the first conversation was like, it wasn't the worst. It wasn't like, you know, she was saying mean things to you, but she was scared. And, you know, she was worried for you. And that's, you know, understandable. And then and then later, there's that conversation where she kind of basically says, like, I'm sorry for how I reacted. I was scared. And she explains it. And you have this
00:31:11
Speaker
once you've both processed this deeper connection, which I thought was beautiful and very resonated with my story too. My mom was supportive, but she was kind of sad. I couldn't tell her sooner. And there was that kind of rupture. And also what you said earlier about coming out to other people,
00:31:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's cool when you come out and they're supportive or they don't care. And it's like, okay, cool. But it's also kind of helpful when you get a bad reaction and you get through it and you survive and you realize, okay, I'm still me. And like their bad reaction is on them. And I've learned something about them. Yes. It's, it's, it's easier when the people are kind of like,
00:31:55
Speaker
a little more two-dimensional in your life. And you're just like, oh, okay. You're kind of like a person I wouldn't want in my life anyway. I think when it's like family or people that are so cemented, the decision isn't that easy to just be like, oh, okay, well, I don't really want to associate with someone like that anyway. This is like, okay, you are like a pillar in my life. Right. Then you have to have those multiple conversations and really process it and help them through it sometimes. But it's hard.
00:32:31
Speaker
I want to read your dedication page because it's about coming out and it's sort of a message to people. You know, it's like we can't force anyone out and it's everyone's decision, but I liked how strong this message is. I'll read it. It says, I offer this to those still reluctant to come out. There will never be a perfect time, only time you waste living a lie and time you cherish living your truth.
00:32:56
Speaker
we don't know how much time we have on this earth so cherish it. Can you tell us a little like why you chose to include that in the dedication page? Of course, my story and a big catalyst for me even going on what I would say like is my coming out journey or my self discovery journey is the loss of my best friend Joe Gilliam and I don't want anyone else's
00:33:22
Speaker
journey of self-love or acceptance to come at the cost of someone's life or at any really big cost. Like so much of our stories, whether it be real life stories or portrayed in media or film or books are off the back of like egregious tragedy. And I just don't want that to be the case for us. I don't want that to be the norm for us. And if you have
00:33:53
Speaker
the power or the will or the bravery or the opportunity for that to not be your story, I really encourage you to take it. I want to be the person that went through it so you don't have to be. I think it's really important for young queer people to hear that. You don't have to have the trauma story. You don't have to go through the low lows to reach the high highs. It doesn't have to be like that.
00:34:22
Speaker
And also for the people who do think, you know, who are kind of like the spreadsheet people who are the people who are like, once I get this, this and this, I can do this. I wish life was work like that. I do. But it doesn't. And a lot of the times the things that you want are on the other side of the thing that you fear. A lot of times the peace and the happiness and the joy and the love are on the other side of
00:34:53
Speaker
of the thing that you fear and that you want to overcome. So that's kind of my message to everyone. Take it as you will. The life is beautiful once you come, once you are truly living it for you.
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. And it's definitely the big message that stuck with me at the end of it is that the things that we fear the most, there's so much actual power in them in confronting exactly those things. That whatever it is that you have that fear of, actually that has a key that's going to unlock.
00:35:33
Speaker
other things that you think might be unrelated and so you talk a lot in the book about duality and like two sides of you or more than two sides of you and your life kind of fracturing into these different things that you kept compartmentalized
00:35:52
Speaker
I actually want to read another quote and then ask you about this. Because you're an artist, you're a writer, you're a poet, and then you're an NFL player. And it's about as different worlds as you can get. And then the sexuality on top of that is a whole other layer.
00:36:13
Speaker
So here you wrote, I was trying to be smart and articulate when I took my helmet off, but to be masculine, strong and almost animalistic when I put it back on, but also to never let the two cross. And in dating and love, I was trying to be soft, vulnerable and loving.
00:36:28
Speaker
And then you wrote on a different page, duality was a tricky beast. I didn't yet know that I would only feel right when I brought my two sides together. And in fact, the possibility of those two sides coming together was my worst fear. So can you tell us, like, why, how did that feel before? Why was it so scary to integrate that? And how did you get there? Oh, my gosh, before it was literally a mess. I just
00:37:01
Speaker
There's already, I think, as a person of color, so much information and data and observation and code switching and fight or flight and survival instinct that goes into just existing in this country and in this world. And when you throw on top of that identity and sexuality,
00:37:31
Speaker
in sports or in Texas where I grew up, it felt like the perfect equation to be accepted in different arenas, different classrooms, different spaces. And I think as an athlete, there were things that were valued that weren't valued as a student, that weren't valued as just like a citizen. There were things in
00:38:01
Speaker
as growing up as like a young black man that weren't valued, you know, in other places that actually like put me in harm's way or in danger in other places. So it literally in every room that I walked into, I was calculating which parts of myself to show that would give me the best probability or chance to be accepted, loved, valued, or at the bare minimum seen as human in this space. And, you know, as a young person,
00:38:31
Speaker
who has not even really figured out who they are, this is just a lot of constant evaluation compartmentalization and self-fragmenting that's happening constantly. And it's traumatic, it's damaging, and then on the other side of it, there's times where I'm also trying to use it to my benefit. So it's also warping my own view of myself.
00:38:59
Speaker
You know, there's times where like on a date, you say you're a football player, but like now I'm being a little more articulate and I'm showing off. So someone knows like, Oh, he's like, he's the smart jock. Like, okay, this is a little more, you know, this is, this is a little more attractive world. He's like a little artistic, but he's, he's got like a rougher edge to him. Like this is a little, you know, there's now I'm like showing off. So now, so now I'm not only think that this is normal. I now think that this is like my super power, um, being able to kind of chameleon and you know,
00:39:29
Speaker
When it's your choice and when it feels natural to you and when you feel inspired to let your gifts and your personality and different talents shine, of course that's fine. But when it comes from a place of wanting to be loved and accepted and to survive, that is when this is something that's born from toxicity. And not being able to differentiate the two because it starts so young is what the true like
00:39:59
Speaker
crux was for me as a young person so yeah uh that's kind of why my initial reaction was it was a mess because there was just so much going on in my head and then at the end of the day you have the nfl knocking on your door and you're like okay i can't even figure any of this out because now i need to really just throw all of this
00:40:22
Speaker
in the closet, you know, no pun intended, and focus on playing football. Right, right. Yeah, that's so interesting. It makes sense. And it reminds me of another sort of topic that I wanted to talk about, which is like this idea of
00:40:38
Speaker
by, especially by people sort of doubting themselves. And it's like a hard line to find because you need to have self-reflection and examine yourself to realize this and to come out and to accept it. But then there's also like a certain level where for by people, especially because it's so not accepted and visible,
00:40:59
Speaker
that we can overthink and over-doubt ourselves. And so I saw you kind of going through that process in the book and it's really cool to read it as it's happening. And you talk about the healthy reflection of starting to think about who you're interested in and who you're dating and
00:41:19
Speaker
what kind of porn you like and you know I liked how you wrote like you know guys you wrote guys got turned on seeing another guy having sex even if the girl is the main attraction and you found that you needed both actors to attract you to watch a scene which like makes a lot of sense to me I wonder if it makes sense to other people and they just don't want to admit it or actually reflect on it yeah
00:41:41
Speaker
And you wrote, you knew perfectly well when men are good looking. It's like, yeah, you can tell. But then you wrote, the more you're getting into this and doing it in secret, you wrote, I was good at doubting everything about my place in the world. That comes easy when you have no compassion for yourself. And then later you wrote, did it even matter? What if I married a woman? And this was all for naught, especially in the NFL when there can be
00:42:10
Speaker
downsides big downsides you were the first one so who even knows what would happen so can you talk a little bit about like that struggle of of overthinking and and how you dealt with that almost yeah I mean especially at that point like being a young adult a lot of
00:42:28
Speaker
A lot of our validation, unfortunately, is external. Hopefully, you get it from a loving home and foundation. Hopefully, you get it from education and resources. As a bisexual person, there isn't really a lot of that, or there wasn't a lot of that when I was coming up. Everyone that I met, straight and gay, bisexuals don't exist. They're like, that's not even a thing.
00:42:56
Speaker
I already had such a toxic relationship with myself because it was either no sense of identity or the sense of identity that I did have. I had so many reasons, so many negative reasons on both ends to not embrace my sexuality, to not embrace my race, my culture, to not embrace so many things about myself. So my own image of me was already so skewed
00:43:26
Speaker
And then in this haze of trying to figure me out, there's no place that's just like, hey, it's OK to not know. And it's OK to sit in that. Everyone kind of knew. You know what I mean? Even as much homophobic hate that I saw put on,
00:43:56
Speaker
gay students or gay classmates or peers or there was kind of like this pride that I saw them carry and like, hey, I know who I am and you don't like it. And that's a you thing, but I know, you know, I didn't really have that. And that's not a whoa is me thing. It's just a different experience. And I couldn't claim that. So, I mean, the whole process is just so, so twisted. And, you know, unfortunately for me, it's like,
00:44:27
Speaker
um, seeking, uh, identity, education and resources through porn probably like, isn't the best place. But it's what happens. Yeah. Maybe not. But it so happens to a lot of people. That's the first, you know, Yeah, I mean, that's the easiest thing. I was like, men and men, like, let's see what happens. Um, but yeah, I just hope like I said, that's why I just hope there are more stories, especially for
00:44:56
Speaker
for people on all spectrums of identity, you know, and more education because there is so many components to just figuring out who you are, not knowing who you are, and it being one, okay, and two, there being just so many resources to be like, hey, you can be attracted to
00:45:12
Speaker
people of the same gender, people of different gender, people who don't adhere to any gender. I think that's a big thing about looking back to this book now too was like even my thought process back then was like so binary and now like I don't really adhere to a binary at all so like that's a whole different thing.
00:45:28
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. And also, I get the overthinking as you're going through it and you wrote about it really beautifully, but it also seems like you do have that confidence now in the identity and in who you are.
00:45:46
Speaker
Maybe, I know from my experience, it doesn't always feel like it's fully figured out. There's always stuff to explore and uncover, but you write about it with a lot of confidence from this point now, so I love that.
00:46:08
Speaker
There's a theme in the book about crying. Like it comes up a decent amount that I noticed. And I did a whole episode of this show with a guy who wrote a book about crying and how our tears reveal things to us. And so I thought it was interesting. There were a few points in the book where
00:46:25
Speaker
You held back your tears. You didn't cry when you might have. You wrote that you cried at movies when you could cry at nothing else. And maybe there's like a stigma about crying in front of people and you don't want to be seen as weak. But when you're alone in a screen, you can.
00:46:42
Speaker
But then at a certain point, the narrative turns and you do, you know, at Joe's funeral, you wrote, I wanted to cry badly, but I didn't think I deserved to. But then by the end, you do. And then same with coming out to your mom, there are tears there. I'm curious, like, what did you learn through your tears or through writing about them? I'll be honest, my relationship with crying is still probably not great.
00:47:10
Speaker
Interesting. In full transparency, I cried the other day, but I am a reluctant crier. I need to work on this, but we're being honest. This is my thing currently as of today.
00:47:32
Speaker
The whole process of crying, I do not enjoy. I find myself to be an ugly crier. I find the congestion of crying that instantly happens to me to be both annoying and disgusting. I instantly get a headache as well, which is terrible. And yeah, it's just, I don't enjoy it.
00:48:01
Speaker
at all. I'm a, I'm a very emotional person, like deep down. Uh, I feel like I have a very like stoic exterior and I, you know, I think I'm able to see a lot of different perspectives and be logical, but when things really hit me, they really hit me.
00:48:23
Speaker
But I try to find other ways to express my emotion without crying. I'm like, there's ways to get my toe in and come out without fully submerging in these tears. But I find that sometimes the experience and the cathartic relief that comes from crying is something that is inevitable for me. So yeah.
00:48:48
Speaker
I am more left in prior. But there are times where just you have to give in to it. As I get older, I find my own relationship with control, especially over myself, to be tested by tears. And you know, there's so much in my life that was beyond my control. And I found myself to be the one thing that I have been able to control. And I find that
00:49:17
Speaker
to be constantly represented through my emotions and specifically my relationship with crying. And sometimes my tears are like the one thing where they're like, you can't control us. Eventually we're gonna get out of here. And that's when I kind of gotta be like, okay, I need to just throw my hands up and like, let my emotions in my body do what they're gonna do.
00:49:38
Speaker
Yeah, well, I'm thank you for the honesty and the vulnerability and that that answer makes sense. And it's like, yeah, it's like, it's still a spectrum of how comfortable we are with these things. And when are we going to let it take over us versus keep ourselves in control. But
00:49:55
Speaker
I did think there were multiple points in the book where you really feel the catharsis because of the crying. And I get what you're going through because, yeah, maybe you couldn't control it anymore and it had to come out and there's some feeling and reconciliation with someone else or acceptance of something that's going on that leads to the crying and those scenes are beautiful.
00:50:24
Speaker
There also feels like there's also, there's a bit of like no meter almost to crying sometimes. Like, yeah, there's just like my logical brain. Maybe this is my overthinking. My logical brain can't, it can't really, it can't compute. Cause I'm like, I cried at my best friend's funeral. Why am I crying about this? Like my mind's like, these two things aren't equal. So don't cry.
00:50:48
Speaker
But my body's like, but we want to cry about this. Like, this is affecting us. Like, we want to. And my mind's like, but we should. Like, you know, it's a bit of that. My mind is just like, I think that comes back to like, nah, I don't deserve to cry. I think I've moved away from that. And to people just like, you've been through worse than this. Like, it's almost, I don't know, maybe it's maybe it's, I don't want to say toxic masculinity, because I feel like I've kind of stepped away from that.
00:51:18
Speaker
Maybe it's rooted in that. I don't know. Now I'm like having a therapy session. It is a bit of like, you should be tougher than that. You've handled worse than this. It's the thought that like you've built up an emotional fortitude where like crying should be reserved for this. And that's just not the human experience.
00:51:44
Speaker
Right. I think that may be residual toxic masculinity stuff that you kind of mostly shed, but it's still there's still some of it because we're so ingrained with those things and this being tough and especially like it with being in the NFL, like there must be that sense of like, oh, you know, tough, you can handle it. Whatever's going on, whatever injury you have, you get out there, you play the game and like,
00:52:07
Speaker
you compete. And so that's a theme in the book too of how to be tough and how to get through that, but then that also sort of separates you from your real feelings sometimes. And you've clearly done the work to reconnect there, but I think this
00:52:26
Speaker
It just shows that even with these cathartic moments, it's not like, oh, now it's easy. Now I cry whenever I want. It's still tough, and it shows you stuff that you're struggling with when that comes up.
00:52:49
Speaker
So I want to talk about now transitioning back to the arts. And you wrote about you had this in you your whole life and that you had a creative side as a child. You wrote that you hid it from your teammates. Quote, I worried that a young man who wrote poetry, drew pictures, and enjoyed slow songs about love would be seen as less masculine and therefore less of a football player.
00:53:14
Speaker
But then now you wrote, which I thought was really interesting because I'm starting to go to open mics and do some performing, you wrote about going to open mics and reading poetry. You wrote, sharing poems under the dim lights with a crowd of strangers is the closest I felt to entering a stadium and playing under the lights.
00:53:33
Speaker
It's a combination of thrill, fear and instant connection. So I'm curious, like, what's it been like to make this transition and how do you use your unique experience as a football player and everything you sort of learned and trained for? How do you use that as an artist?
00:53:55
Speaker
Yeah, I love that question. There's this boldness that comes with being an athlete that you've trained your body and your mind and going out there and displaying your artistry through the movement of your body and in the force of will. And I find that very similar.
00:54:19
Speaker
in artistry, in poetry, in open mics, and in sharing and performing, but in a way that to me is almost
00:54:29
Speaker
I don't want to say braver, but just a different sacrifice. I feel like on the field, it's a sacrifice of blood and body. I feel like in these performances, it's a sacrifice of vulnerability of heart, which for me was just so different and so scary because it was the opposite of what I was trying to do my whole life. I was trying to hide that vulnerability in that heart.
00:54:55
Speaker
Football in sport as a foundation has taught me time and time again that I can exceed my own expectations, that I can break my own boundaries and barriers, and that I, at a time when I reach my limit, can move that limit again and again. There's so many positives that I've learned from sport, which is why even being the queer man in sports and even knowing all of the negatives that can come from it, I know that the sport itself has so many positives that the LGBTQ plus community, especially queer youth,
00:55:26
Speaker
can use a need specifically. That's why I don't throw the whole sport away as a whole. That's why I'm like, we just need to change the culture and get the toxic people out of the sport because this is something that's actually really beautiful for our society and our community. So with that being said, I feel like this foundation that sport gave me in really the trust in myself and the value it gave to me in me.
00:55:47
Speaker
stripping away all of the other toxic bullshit is invaluable. And I put that in my art sheet because I know that I can be bold. I know that I can be greater than just the sum of my parts and I can exceed my own expectation. And, you know, to be vulnerable is something that I brought into it outside of school. And I continue to do that. After coming out, whether it be writing this book, whether it be doing TV and entertainment, whether it be poetry, whether it be art,
00:56:17
Speaker
Everything that I've said yes to after coming out, I either had no idea how to do, or was completely terrified of doing, or my knee-jerk reaction was no. My knee-jerk reaction was to hide. My knee-jerk reaction was like, people will see more of you, and they might not like that. You might not be good enough. This isn't for you. You don't deserve this. So I said yes, because I know none of that is true.
00:56:45
Speaker
because I know that that voice is a voice that was created to lie to me. And the further that I get down this road, the quieter that voice gets, the further I get there on this road, the less of those things I hear. And I really do believe that that is something that sport gave me, that when my body was hurting and when everything in the world was telling me to stop,
00:57:14
Speaker
The athlete in me was like, no, do one more rep. No, make one more tackle. No, do one more play. So I do think the two are connected. And I do think they're connected to me. And I do want to see more of that connection in the real world because I think it exists.
00:57:31
Speaker
Yeah, beautiful. I love that. And it's like, I love that idea that it pushes you to just, you know, put yourself it's a different way of putting yourself out there. Because, you know, football is like, you know, what you're supposed to sort of do the play can change, but everyone knows what everyone's doing. And you can, you can be the best at it, you can get better. But when you're getting on stage, it's like,
00:57:55
Speaker
Who knows? There's a lot of unknowns. You might share stuff that no one expects and you're waiting for a reaction that could go many different ways. Not just cheering and booing, but there's other things too. And it's scary, but I like that that experience is pushing you to just sort of push yourself further and further.
00:58:26
Speaker
Last question. You wrote at the end in that blog, I know now that I'm more than a football player and my most significant accomplishments are still ahead of me. I read that last night. I almost skipped the epilogue, but I thought it's so beautiful. And you also wrote about California that this seemed like my only chance. It was where my memories, dreams, hopes and fantasies lived. So what do you see? I know there's some unknowns and that's there's beauty in the unknown. But like,
00:58:56
Speaker
What's your mission now? What do you see in your future? What are your fantasies or hopes for your life or career? Oh my gosh, yeah. Life is really good.
00:59:12
Speaker
Which sounds so cliche to say, but there was a time even while writing this where I felt good, but I didn't know where I was going. I had just come out. I knew I wanted to write a book. I knew I wanted to make a difference. But I didn't really know how I was going to make money. I didn't really know how I was going to do
00:59:37
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't really have like a plan. Like I also didn't come out with like a business plan. It wasn't like, it was just like, I want to come out to be free and just figure it out. But like I was saying earlier, the universe really has allowed me the opportunity to use all of my gifts and my talents and my abilities to live dreams and lives that I never thought I would.
01:00:00
Speaker
So I do, I want to continue to tell stories. I want to continue to tell stories that are underrepresented, undertold. I'm going to continue to platform.
01:00:10
Speaker
voices that have been marginalized, that have been pushed to the wayside, that have been silenced. I want to make shows. I want to make movies. I want to create art in all mediums and all forms, both big on big commercial scales and on small independent grassroots scales. I think both are very important to artistry and to storytelling. I love L.A. I want to stay here for as long as it serves me.
01:00:39
Speaker
My partner and I are still together. I wrote about him in the book. He's a huge part of my coming-out story. He's a huge part of my happiness. I want to start a family with him. I would love to be a father one day, which is something I never really thought about before, but I'm like, okay, we could do it. Two is my limit. He was coming up with five. I was coming up with one. We've somehow compromised on two. Don't do the math. It doesn't make sense, but I'm happy with it.
01:01:09
Speaker
Yeah, but no, I really want to continue to help people feel seen, loved, respected, and equal, all people. Because at the end of the day, whether it is racism, sexism, misogyny, homophobia, all of the isms,
01:01:30
Speaker
all of the hate, we're all fighting bigotry. We're all fighting the idea that we can treat people as less than or subhuman because of who they love or how they're born or how they look or who they believe in or the God that they choose to worship. And that is not true. And that is not right. And that is what we're all fighting against. Um, so that's the mission statement. I believe that we can do that in fun and exciting ways. And I believe we can do that in community. I believe that we can do that and still celebrate and enjoy our lives. And that is what I'm committed to.
01:01:58
Speaker
Beautiful. I love it. Beautiful note to end on. And everyone should read the book because there's so much more about a lot of the stuff we talked about and then some and a lot of other topics that I love to talk about, but we don't have time. There's the book, The Yards Between Us. Do you want to tell us where can people find it? And do you want to tell us a little about Huddle, your new book, and where to find that? Yeah, I should have.
01:02:25
Speaker
I need all my stuff. Okay, so I mean the Archimedes, this is really simple. This should be available anywhere that you buy your books. If you're indie books, I'll just not have it. Just ask them. I'm sure they can order it. Literally available anywhere. If you have to go through Amazon, go for it. 20% off at Target, I believe, too. So the Archimedes, Archi Russell, anywhere you get your books. I just came out with a journal.
01:02:52
Speaker
called The Huddle Men's Journal. This is a guided journal, 180 prompts. If you've never journaled before, this is a great place to start. It is a men's journal specifically not to exclude anyone, but to make men feel included
01:03:07
Speaker
to encourage men to journal and to get in touch with their emotions, to begin to self-reflect, to break your own boundaries, to explore your personal depths, and with hopes to understand yourself so that you communicate with others and the people in your life. So this is a collaboration I did with Baron Faye. They're an amazing journal company and thought piece company.
01:03:27
Speaker
You can order this online at baronfic.com. The link is also in any of my socials, but this is Huddle Men's Journal. Go to baronfic.com. The Art of Phoenix. Anywhere you get your books. Awesome. I'll put the links to all that in the show notes. It's so great to have that Men's Journal stuff geared toward men and masculinity, and that's another huge theme in the book is about your journey with
01:03:52
Speaker
expressing masculinity and finding your your version. And so that's another thing you can read about in both books. And I love that you're doing this work. It's beautiful. We need it. And yeah, thank you again for coming back here. It's so great to talk to you again four years later and hear the evolution and read your book and learn all this stuff. And I can't wait till we meet in person.
01:04:17
Speaker
Yes. We gotta go on a hike now. Now it's gotta happen. Yes. I'll see you at the Wisdom Tree. Perfect. Alright, thanks again for being here. This was lovely. Great to see you. Thanks for having me.
01:04:32
Speaker
Two Bye Guys is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Mincer. We are supported by the Gotham, and we are part of the Zencaster Creator Network. Visit patreon.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen for bonus content, early access, and exclusive video episodes. Thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys.