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The Time of the Bisexuals with Lewis Oakley
2.1k Plays2 months ago
Happy Bi+ Visibility Day / Week / Month! In this episode, I chatted with Lewis Oakley, a Bi+ Activist in the UK, co-host of the Bisexual Brunch podcast, and author of a new book, “Bisexuality: The Basics” from Jessica Kingsley Publishers. We chatted about his recent appearances on cable news (where he had to prove he was a “real” bisexual), and then we dove into his book and the complicated, nuanced questions he poses in it for people who are navigating sexual fluidity. Stay tuned at the end for one of my stand-up sets! More with Lewis next week.
Follow Lewis on IG: https://www.instagram.com/lewyoaks/?hl=en
Visit his website: https://lewisoakley.com/
Buy “Bisexuality: The Basics” https://us.jkp.com/products/bisexuality-the-basics
Listen to Bisexual Brunch: https://bisexualbrunch.buzzsprout.com/
Lewis takes on Piers Morgan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wndJdXwK558
Lewis debates bisexuality with Laurence Fox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=MWGO5mxGluU
Visit Rob's website: https://www.robertbrookscohen.com
See more of Rob's stand-up comedy: https://www.youtube.com/@RobCohenComedy
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Transcript
Introduction to Two Bye Guys and Lewis Oakley
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of Two Bye Guys, another Across the Pond podcast has been around. Please welcome, I'm so excited to chat with you, Lewis Oakley, to Two Bye Guys. Hi, Lewis. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. It's so nice that we can have this biconic conversation.
00:00:41
Speaker
Yes,
Origin and Evolution of Bisexual Brunch
00:00:42
Speaker
indeed. Finally, we've been ah chatting for years and I like ah feel like we started around the same time. When did Bisexual Brunch start? Oh my God. A sort of pre-pandemic. So it would have been 2020, 2019 maybe. Yeah. Because i yeah the only reason I agreed to do bisexual brunch is because they really sold it to me. Like, we're going to be chatting about bisexuality, but what we're going to do is going to be brunch. So we're going to go for brunch in different, um like, fabulous restaurants all around London and all around Manchester, and it's going to be wonderful.
00:01:12
Speaker
And I was like, okay, so this is just basically me getting a free lunch and then the pandemic hit and they were like, we're going to do it remotely for now. And I've never, we've never recorded one out in a restaurant. Amazing. Okay.
00:01:28
Speaker
That's funny. Okay, wait, I have a question about that, but I forgot
Meet Lewis Oakley: UK Bisexual Advocate
00:01:31
Speaker
to introduce you. For those who don't know, Louis Oakley, he's one of the leading bisexual advocates in the UK. He regularly appears across radio, TV, podcasts, and in print. He's kind of everywhere. If you visit his website, you'll see him everywhere. He's making sure bisexuality is included in national discussions. He was featured as a cover star on attitudes Attitude Activists and Allies issue in 2020.
00:01:57
Speaker
been nominated for a Pink News Award and LGBT Campaigner of the Year Award, among others. He's a host of Bisexual Brunch, and he has a new book, Bisexuality the Basics, which is now available already from Jessica Kingley, Jessica Kingley Publishers.
The Concept of Bisexual Brunch and Pandemic Impact
00:02:13
Speaker
Cool. We'll talk about the book in a minute, but I was going to ask you about Bisexual Brunch and the title because I was like, is there something bisexual about brunch, which I think there is, but it's interesting that it was just like you were going out for brunch and then doing the podcast except that that never happened.
00:02:29
Speaker
Yes, that was the initial concept. was like We go for brunch, we talk about bisexuality. like it was like It was going to be like a hallway ASMR thing as well. like You'd hear us crunching and you know stirring our coffee and it was going to be great. but yet but I mean, look, it's going really well. we can't and We can't be upset because it's got a great audience. We're getting to really talk about some good issues, which I'm really loving. and cool but yeah But I'm not getting free meals, which is what I was promised.
00:02:59
Speaker
What a shame. I mean, that's why we get into podcasting is for the free food. I mean, that's why I did. So like that's, that's too bad. And that's why I'm drinking coffee as we chat to have some a little ASMR. I'll see. I should have grew up in Illinois.
00:03:14
Speaker
Well, it's like it's too late. well it's It's still coffee time for me, but you can't have coffee at six p.m. Exactly.
Humorous Insights: Is Brunch Bisexual?
00:03:23
Speaker
Don't do that. But to me, I thought there's something kind of bisexual about brunch because like breakfast is breakfast is nice. You get eggs and coffee and all that. But like lunch, you might get a sandwich and some bread and I don't know, there's good things about bre but about lunch. And then brunch,
00:03:41
Speaker
just like bisexuality combines the best of both worlds and you get it all all in one life experience. So to me, brunch is very bisexual inherently. What
Length and Depth: The Art of Bisexual Discourse
00:03:51
Speaker
what do you think? Oh, we should have had you write the description for the podcast. but That's so much better than what we were thinking. Well, I can make anything bisexual.
00:04:04
Speaker
Uh, that's my superpower. Um, and your episodes, you guys do long. I was looking like we both started in 2019, I guess, cause I started in 2019 also with Alex and you've done like 50 something episodes. I think we've done 70 something, but your episodes are like twice as long. So you've actually produced a lot more content. How do you do like two hour episodes? I mean, I know there's, there's segments, but is that, isn't that a lot?
00:04:34
Speaker
They are mammoth. So yeah, so they have, we have segments. So that's great. So I don't actually have to talk for three hours, but still when we do the recordings, like, you know, Ash is always telling me, oh, we just do an hour. We just do an hour. And then it's sort of two hours. You're like, Ash, you said an hour. um So they they, you know, but there is so much to talk about. And what I love about um doing a podcast and doing it with two other bisexual people,
00:04:58
Speaker
i It's the one place where I don't have to know all the answers.
Bisexuality's Diplomatic Nature in Media
00:05:02
Speaker
Whenever I go on television, or whenever I write an article, or especially when you write a book, you kind of have to have a position and know what you're talking about. Whereas with the podcast, it can be more of a, you know, I come at it from this this point of view and and what do you guys think? And it's something that I think a lot of bisexuals don't ever really get to have, which is being able to bounce off other bisexual people.
00:05:23
Speaker
and maybe not even reaching a consensus sometimes, but just kind of sharing your own experience and just kind of being able to put your experience into perspective amongst others. And that takes turn out. That's why they're three outlets.
00:05:36
Speaker
Yeah, and that actually is is, I mean, I'm making everything bisexual, but that is kind of a bi thing to do to like have a point of view that is kind of somewhere in the middle and more nuanced and not like a hard right or left thing. And so, and that I mean, that's like something that's lacking in media outside of this topic as well is like this nuance and space for Well, that's you and do you yeah that's why I think I do well in media and I keep getting invited back to go on TV and radio is because they miss the bisexual perspective, which is I'm not going to play science. It's not about left or right or whatever these issues are. Like, actually, we're also going to have to live on this planet at the end of this discussion at the end of the day. So we have to kind of find that middle ground and actually being able to see things from other people's sides.
00:06:23
Speaker
And I think bisexuals may be a better place to do that because we have sort of had years of living in between different cultures, whether you're living in the straight world or the gay world, that the bisexual culture in the middle doesn't exist as pronounced as it does for maybe the gay culture, where there are you yeah bars and there's lot you know gay people tend to know lots of other gay people, whereas with bisexuals, the amount of people I meet that are bisexual that have never really met any other bisexual people, don't even have any bi friends,
00:06:50
Speaker
and so you constantly are sort of in this world where it's like well that doesn't really relate to me the way you weird little straight people do things but then the way you weird little gay people go on doesn't really relate to me. So I think it makes you more diplomatic to be bisexual and then if ah you can bring that to national discussions about God whatever they have me on to talk about I think that they i think that i think that they're lost by it but they they keep inviting me back so it must be all right.
00:07:15
Speaker
Yeah, I love the weird little straight people and weird little games. That's a great little, great little phrase. and Yeah, particular let's call them particular. We could call them weird sometimes. I mean, not weird is okay.
00:07:31
Speaker
uh that's so funny and like yeah um even among vibe people what's interesting is like you can have a different experience or different point of view and yet it's understood in in those spaces i'm in like there isn't this need to figure out the answer there's an acceptance of maybe there is no answer and maybe there's just ah lots of possibilities and so like the by discussion group i've i used to go to and still sometimes go like everyone says different things and sometimes i'm like no that's not me but everyone's very free to express that and feel safe not having to like come come down on a certain side which is kind of nice yeah look at us if only the buys were more listened to there'd be no problems in the world
00:08:18
Speaker
Indeed. Listen to us more and take our subtlety as gospel.
Navigating Last-Minute TV Debates
00:08:23
Speaker
I actually want to ask you, before we get into the book in a minute and your and your whole life story, like you i I just watched a few clips of you on TV. it's It is cool that you keep getting invited to these things. I'm jealous of that. But yeah I saw this clip of you on Piers Morgan, and it's exactly what you're talking about. like He's very like What's the deal? like is by you know Tell me about bisexual. He's very like left and right and going into this woke versus anti-woke and trying to kind of like pin you down on these topics. And you handled it so well. I loved best. Yeah. I mean, he's he doesn't seem easy to chat with necessarily. But I loved your facial expressions while he's asking you questions, just kind of very like,
00:09:11
Speaker
very stone face like hmm okay like your facial expression said a lot you know what i can't help it my facial expression my other half is always like we'll just be sat in a room quietly watching tv show what on earth are you thinking about because my facial expressions are like going for it sorry what was your question well what was it like going on that show how did you handle that intensity So I think maybe the thing that people don't understand about some of the TV debates like that is you get asked very last minute to do these things. It's sort of like we are recording in three hours, you know, what is your opinion on this and would you be up for doing it? And then sort of the next thing you know, you're in a taxi on the way to a TV studio. A lot of times you don't get a lot of ah prep for most of it.
00:09:56
Speaker
and ah And that debate came up and I kind of, you know, you sort of set back and have a little think about it because I can talk about bisexuality literally for three hours at a time and not bore or or get tired. But this debate was about LGBT people in general. So you kind of want to get a sense of what the debate is about and then think, you know, can I argue this? And let me just kind of argue it. Can I bring some perspective to the discussion? Can
Facing Piers Morgan: A Nerve-Wracking Experience
00:10:19
Speaker
I give something to it that someone else wants? Then you kind of OK it. And it was the first time I went on Piazza's show. um and sort of, you know, you go into makeup and they make sure you look pretty and then the producer comes in and depending on what producer you get, you know, sometimes they're like, and yeah and that's and that's when you grab the glass of water and you throw it over Peter's and you say, you're an evil monster. No, they're not that far. But sometimes they're like, you know, sometimes they'll come in and be like, you know what, he can take it so you can throw him what you want, just don't swear.
00:10:49
Speaker
ah Wow. And so then basically next thing I know I'm sort of backstage waiting to go on and they cut to an outbreak. And I sort of went into the studio, I sat down next to Piers and I was kind of like ready to you know throw my hand out and say, how are you? And all that kind of stuff. And he just sat there absolutely silent looking down. And I was just like, everyone else has sort of disappeared. It was just us in this really quiet studio. And I was just there like, oh my God, like,
00:11:18
Speaker
This is really awkward. And then I started to think to myself, oh, my God, he can't look at me because he's like prepared to take me down. Like this is going to be his plan. He's going to say he's going to absolutely like destroy me. And so then I'm getting more worked up. Like this was a bad idea. You're going on live TV like what? You didn't have to say yes to this. why did Where is the exit?
00:11:38
Speaker
um And then all of a sudden he looked up and he was like, Lewis. And it was sort of like he was back in the room because I realized then he was, he was listening to what the producer was telling him in his ear. And he was looking down at getting, I was just there for two minutes being like, Oh my God, I'm being ignored. This, this is a bad sign. Okay. Okay.
00:11:59
Speaker
And then he was, so then we did the debate, which you guys saw and he was fine. And afterwards, you know, he was really nice and said, thank you for coming. Shook my hands and everything. And it was actually really fun. The producer messaged me after that and said, um, he's kicking himself that he didn't go harder on you. And I was like, next time. Um, so yeah funny you know what? A lot of these.
00:12:21
Speaker
people that have personalities and media, I find that, especially the ones that get the bad rap of like, they're bad people, blah, blah, literally, usually the nicest people, at least when they you come into their studio. I mean, you know, I can't say for all of their views, and Piers and I definitely disagree on a lot of things. and But a lot of the times, i felt it's the weirdest things, I found that the people in TV that have the bad rap are usually the nicest, and the people that have the nicest rap are usually me. Interesting, weird. in My opinion.
00:12:49
Speaker
Yeah, he does have a bad rap these days. that is That's good that he was nice to you. It's funny hes to imagine him sitting there. His producer is probably in his ear being like, so there's this thing called bisexuality. There's a bisexual man sitting next to you now. Don't look at him.
00:13:06
Speaker
But let me explain it to you. That's funny. He wanted to go harder at you. It's like, I mean, it was it was funny because that segment wasn't even right. You're right. It wasn't even like about does bisexuality exist. It was it was more about like the hypocrisy of companies during Pride Month and yeah as if like you're a representative for those companies. Like how could you have gone harder at you? you're You're just like a person who doesn't represent those companies. So that That was interesting. And then there was another one that was funny that I just watched. I never heard of this person, but on GB News with Lawrence Fox. Do you remember that one?
Unexpected Positivity with Lawrence Fox
00:13:45
Speaker
So that one is a really funny one. So Lawrence Fox, especially in the UK, for those who don't know, light has, I mean, a really bad rap now. He's he's since been let go from GB News. So he doesn't have a shit anymore.
00:13:59
Speaker
and So what happened? And me going on GB News as someone that's bisexual, i think there are people that have problems with it because it's seen as a right wing channel or whatever. But I'm very much people. That's where we need to be. like that's No point me talking to bisexuals or us.
00:14:16
Speaker
like but We need to go towards a people that disagree. It's brave that's brave of you. I mean, it's like it it's going into hostile territory. But yes, to a certain extent, that that is where we should need to be. Yeah, if you can if you can handle it. So with Lawrence Fox, so this was the very first time I've done GP news.
00:14:34
Speaker
um And I had done a lot of TV and radio before. this I think this was after the P.S. Morgan thing, or maybe around the same time, I can't remember. um But basically, Lawrence Fox had had someone on his show and talking about something not to do with bisexuality at all. And and they kind of got to almost the end of the interview. And then Lawrence turned to this guy and said, and apparently youki you've been telling people that you're bisexual.
00:14:56
Speaker
um and he was so And this guy was like so put on the spot because it wasn't what he was there to talk about or ask or be asked about. He didn't expect to be asked about his sexuality. And then Lawrence, I can't remember the exact quote now, but basically was like, there's no such thing as bisexuality. I think you're just greedy, blah, blah. You don't you know, all the old tropes.
00:15:12
Speaker
um and like the like the guy just didn't know how to defend himself because he just wasn't listen prepared for that question. um So I wrote to his producer the next day, because I know a lot of people in that TV space, and I sent the producer an email like, if he wants to have a proper debate and conversation about bisexuality, like I am ready to go.
00:15:35
Speaker
the producer then emailed back, perfect, we've got you in for seven o'clock on Friday. And I was like, me and my big mouth, what have I got my mouth to do again? And you know what, I got to say that was probably out of all of the TV work I've done, the one I was the most nervous about, because not only did Lawrence Fox have a reputation, as you know, people seem as very anti-woke, and like, you know, he's he's not going to take anything, bob blah, blah, blah.
00:16:00
Speaker
And I just thought to myself, my God, like, what have I got myself into? Like, this guy has known i he's no I've been booked for five days, so he knows I'm coming. This isn't a last minute thing and he's going to be scrambling for notes. He is going to have thought about this. He's going to have researched it. He's not going to let me just waltz into his studio and make him look like a fool on national TV. And like we are fundamentally arguing the basics of bisexuality here.
00:16:24
Speaker
um And I remember sitting outside the studio and I like i hadn't gone in yet and I was like, God, I am nervous. I really am nervous this time. and But anyway, I went in and I kind of took it with humor. And you know what? The interview couldn't have gone better. And just to kind of say, because I think they at the moment, I don't read any negative stuff that people say to me on Twitter, but but this is this our system. So I don't read any of the negative tweets. Ash reads them and then WhatsApps me to tell me what people are saying about me online. I don't read these. I don't care. um
00:16:58
Speaker
Good. I was just saying people are actually having a go about you being on GB news on online. This was literally like yesterday. um My thought was very much that. I can see that poor little bisexual kid that is living at home with their with their parents because they may be a teenager and their parents have got this show on and the host of the show has just said there's no such thing as bisexuality you're just greedy and then I can imagine you know the dad sniggering and the mom maybe saying bisexuality you're just gay and and that kid's retreating and being like oh my god and I just thought how
00:17:34
Speaker
impactful and necessary it would be for me to go there the next week and have that debate with them and then you know even if it's not going to spark a discussion in those houses around being like oh my god like the host Lawrence Fox just said obviously of course he like understands that bisexuality like exists and actually like he like they're talking about some specifics now and all that kind of stuff and I just thought that is what's important that is why these That's why I go on these channels sometimes with with debates like that. It's like, well, I'm sorry, but maybe you're the people that we need to have these debates for. But what I will say in Lawrence Fox is um that was kind of how it all sort of began in a weird way, because after the cameras ended, so the cameras cut like TVs, it was actually the end of his show. I was the last segment.
00:18:17
Speaker
And I put out my hand and said, thank you very much for having me on. And he grabbed my hand and pulled me in and gave me a hug. And he was like, thank you so much for coming on. And I was like, oh, fine. Thanks for having me, like, repeating myself. And he literally put his arm over my shoulders and walked me out of the studio and was like, I know people think I'm a bad guy, but like, honestly, like, blah, blah, blah. It was sort of defending himself to me. I was like, I haven't said anything to you.
00:18:44
Speaker
And then he took me out back to his producer and was like, I really want this guy back on. Like he's like a good conversation. And so then she was like, do you want to come back on in a few weeks and we can discuss like just the news topics? I was like, well, I guess. I mean, you know, and for me, it's like, you know, I think there has to be a balance as well, too. I can't just go on and every time talk about bisexuality because people don't want to talk about that every day. But actually, if you can be introduced as, you know, host of the bisexual brunch or the writer of bisexuality, the basics,
00:19:13
Speaker
It's just that little nugget of like, oh, bisexual, that we're not getting your media.
Spreading Bisexual Awareness Across Platforms
00:19:17
Speaker
And then it's like, and then we're constrained to talk about politics and stuff like that. That was how like that kind of stuff started, just doing one good interview with someone. war And look, I've since not stopped following Lawrence Fox since his viral video where he set fire to the pride flag.
00:19:34
Speaker
and because i kind of felt like I was making headway with him. And then I saw that video and I was like, Oh, I don't think you've changed his mind. But that's interesting contexts on how those things come out. And I do think as well, because I do, there are people out there that can look at me and judge me and be like, why are you getting on these channels and blah, blah, blah.
00:19:52
Speaker
you know they keep a lot of people employed and there are a lot of nice people that work there and as I said some of the hosts you know you might get a certain impression of them like when you're watching them but generally they're nice people like behind the scenes um but also I think just my bit of that story it was I was absolutely terrified to go in I've been doing this for like eight years and know my stuff it's like people out there sometimes are putting themselves in uncomfortable situations because they're trying to do what they believe is right and have conversations with people that they think need to be had and to then kind of come back to your own community and they'll be like why you shouldn't have done it it's like you know what you can go I don't know if you swear on this podcast but you can go away
00:20:32
Speaker
yeah Yes, you can swear on this podcast, but I i take your meaning. and and Yeah, I think it's cool that you went there. and what i mean What I loved about it was like how fast you flipped the script on him. like so he I wrote down the way he started the interview because I was like, so like oh my God. He literally said, he like welcomed you. and Then he goes, bisexual, no such thing, change my mind.
00:20:59
Speaker
just like Wow. so What a way to start. Yeah. And then you kind of basically said, well, like, I'm i'm real. I'm here. Like, you can touch me. Like, if, you know, bisexual isn't real, what am I? And then very, very quickly, like, maybe the next thing he said was, well, everyone's a bit everything.
00:21:19
Speaker
And then and then like a minute later, he said, we're all on a bit of a spectrum. So he basically like very quickly acknowledged that this isn't binary. If it's a spectrum and we're all a little bit everything, which I don't necessarily agree with, but like he acknowledged that there's this center space very quickly so like and by the end yeah he seemed to be like on board that it exists and actually talking about the details of it so you did exactly what what you're saying you set out to do it was great and i think that that is this is my thing i do think like it is that it is the time of the bisexuals because especially in media like there are later people that i see going to these tv shows that i know are bisexual even though it's maybe not something they talk about um but i do think
00:22:07
Speaker
my approach with people like that of not going in and be like, how dare you say that you're a bad person? But actually sort of what I try and do is sort of, you know, keep them calm.
00:22:19
Speaker
but make sort of factual points that they can't really argue with, and then find something that completely blows their mind to flip the script. So usually I will go to, you know, and the LGBT community doesn't really like bisexual people. And then that sort of froze them. And then they sort of go their where they they sort of don't know where they are. And then you can sort of get more points. Have it down to a bit of a science when it's those kind of debates now. Right, right.
00:22:45
Speaker
I also think, I think you mentioned and also something I like to mention is that, yeah, like people can acknowledge it's a spectrum and then you say like there's a ton of straight identified people who are not 100% straight because like statistically that's where most of the fluid people land is like a one or a two on the Kinsey scale, at least how they self identify. And they'll sit and they identify a straight. And that also kind of throws people where it's like, because I feel like this guy, Lawrence, ah I feel like especially now that I know he hugged you on the way out and like, did all this, like, he might be a one or a two on the Kinsey scale, you know, it feels like he identifies, there's more people who identify with that than who identify with the word
00:23:31
Speaker
bisexual and it it feels like you got to him in ah in a certain way and you can get to through those those statistics that are not just like yay rah rah bisexual but actually like the complicatedness of it. It's so weird it is just so weird what I found like the word bisexual just has it's almost like throwing like um like a shield in someone's face and they just have so many preconceived notions and yeah such a ah bit of a weird understanding of what it is even though it's not something they were ever taught in school or not something that they're really informed of it's just sort of this sort of background prejudice that's still there and in an age where people are trying to get rid of like prejudices it's like how is it this is the only one still standing
00:24:14
Speaker
that hasn't really been tackled. But once you actually talk to people about it, and once you get into nitty gritty, people are often like the most fun things I hear is like, I never thought about that. or Oh, that's right. And, you you know, it's almost like I almost don't want to I do want to use the word bisexual. But obviously, if it's like if you didn't use the word, you just kind of put these arguments and points in front of them, they would so get it. It's like yeah just so weird that when you then put the bisexual on top of it, people are like, ah,
00:24:43
Speaker
Yes, so it happened exactly. It's a bit of a catch-22 because we want to be visible with the word, but at the same time, there's stigma to it and there's much more acceptance of the stuff underneath the word and the fluidity. and and And like the younger generations, I feel like they're understanding all of that, all of that middle space and fluidity, even though some of them are sort of not attaching themselves to the word. They don't want to attach themselves to any word is something I'm seeing more of like, no, don't label me. I'm not straight. I'm not bi. I'm, I'm whatever I am. I'm me. I'm Rob or whatever. Like that's, that seems to be the trend, which is kind of cool. And at the same time, it's like,
00:25:29
Speaker
Also nice to have a word to be able to talk about what that is. Yeah. So it's a catch on to it.
00:25:42
Speaker
Let's talk about your book and and all the and the stuff about bisexuality that's in there. Your book is called Bisexuality the Basics. It's out a couple of months ago, I believe.
Writing the Book: An Advocate's Journey
00:25:55
Speaker
Tell us, like, ah how did it come about and why did you want to write this book?
00:26:02
Speaker
So um whenever I go on television um and talk about bisexuality or radio or whenever I write an article because I really started out writing articles and I think that the reason I got cut through was that I was able to write for national publications about bisexuality, you know the metro, the telegraph, the Daily Mail, like things just unheard of for covering bisexuality or really any LGBT stuff outside of you know crazy gay persons assaulted someone because they didn't like them or whatever. you know yeah and And again, that mix of left-wing and right-wing publications. And I think that that was what really set me apart was that I figured out ways to pitch them ideas for stories and then get in there. um And I took my top off a lot, so that helped. Yes, I saw a lot of those pictures.
00:26:54
Speaker
whatever you have to do. um yeah Whatever sparks a bi awakening in someone, some for some people it's text, for some people it's for most people it's a photo. you know So and the weird thing I found after that was how clogged my inbox would be.
00:27:11
Speaker
and it would be from bisexual people literally from all around the world. I've been saying postcards from like Canada and South Africa and different like places where people are like, oh my god, I've never read about bisexuality in the mainstream media or some people that I've never even heard of another bi guy and it was so reassuring to read your piece or some people feel that I read your piece about bisexuals and relationships and oh my god, it made me feel so not alone and blah, blah, blah.
00:27:36
Speaker
a lot of them would come with questions. And so I would, you know, do my best to, you know, reply to the questions, but I do have like a full-time job and lots of side projects and children and basically like replying to all of these emails and the questions. And especially when you want to give it thought as well, like some people are literally, it's like, they're opening up to you for the first time. They've never told anyone else they're bisexual. They're really struggling with something. They don't feel like they've got the anyone else to turn to except some guy that they read their article on the internet. So they're kind of like long emails to write. And also you're kind of like, I don't know your life and I don't know your partner. like So anyway, yeah, and I just couldn't keep up with it. And I always felt bad where I'd read an email and just be like, I just just I don't have time to reply to it. Or I mean, you know, i'd always be I'm gonna reply to this. And then three months later, be like, Oh, my God, look at these 18 emails I didn't get back to. So what I eventually did was I pitched um
00:28:31
Speaker
the idea of an advice column to buy.org where I could take these ah these questions, generalize them. So usually the name and age and location has changed a little bit just to protect people's anonymity and respond to them publicly. So then there would be this bank online of me answering these questions. So a lot of them are similar. um so So that was what I kind of did. And I've been doing that three or four years now.
00:29:00
Speaker
And then this publisher, you know, found me and we were sort of talking through ideas and do I want to write a book and would a book really work? And there's lots of other books on bisexuality, like what would make this one different? And it was actually the publisher that said, look, what we really love is your advice, Colin.
00:29:17
Speaker
um and actually like pulling all that together into a book form where we generalize. So it's not sort of, you know, um Rob from New York asking a question, it's just sort of general like, I'm in a relationship and I'm worried about this. Yeah. and they really thought that that could work. So I basically had to write like a introductory chapter and some chapter titles and things like that. And then they were like, yeah, you've got a book deal, get it done within nine months. So I'm like, yeah what have I, I mean, it's always the way I'll be like, yes. And then so I'll be sat i didn't have even studio or sat with a contract on my desk, like, oh my God, I've got to write a book. like
00:30:03
Speaker
Yeah, the the writing of the book process for me was a lot harder than the than getting the book deal, actually, which was surprising. I thought it would be hard, harder to get the deal. But somehow it came about and then and then like you actually have to sit down and do it. And that was intense.
00:30:20
Speaker
um But your book is great. It's very like easy to read and and I like all these like questions you ask because it's like it's it is sort of in a Q and&A format and you can kind of skim and find the like a question you have and and read your answer. So it's very it's a great ah book for people approaching the subject and looking for answers and looking for advice.
00:30:43
Speaker
Um, I want to ask you a few of the about a few of the things you talked about in the book because some of it was Really interesting and like there there is basic stuff like what is bisexuality, right? And yeah, we we're we're a little beyond that you I want the book to appear to everyone right? So you're going to take them right from the beginning If you're listening to this podcast, you probably know what bisexuality is. But there were also a lot of questions that were really, you know, next level. So I want to ask you about some of those.
00:31:12
Speaker
but god you're going to expect me to remember everything i wrote if yes if you if my shape you better have the same answers as what are in your book because you better be consistent there you shouldn't have uh changing feelings over time that would be not normal that doesn't exist no everyone has to choose on everything i'll tell you what was interesting we write in the book so it sort of it was a very abmany thing to do because I sort of went back through the column and generalised some of the things I've been asked. And then I went back to some of the old articles and things like that.
00:31:47
Speaker
And then I had to kind of separate them out into chapters. So this fits in health, this fits in relationships, whatever. Then I had to try and build out like, okay, what are some of the questions that I've maybe been asked ad hoc that I haven't publicly responded to and what people said over the years. And then I had to start writing them and I would go back and look at some of the old things I said and was like, hmm, my thinking on this has changed actually. and It was really weird to see that I was disagreeing with myself throughout a lot of it.
00:32:14
Speaker
actually like a bisexual book in print is kind of um uh what's the word it's kind of counterintuitive or or and like uh by definition not what not what should exist because how can we put our thoughts into a book in print that stays fixed as it is forever when our feelings are constantly changing over time uh like you get a second book Yeah, i guess so I guess so. We need like the those Harry Potter books that just kind of can magically change as a new thought comes to you. um and And just the type just changes later as as our feelings of evolve. Okay, so the the book kind of start, well, towards the beginning, there's a section on coming out that I
Misconceptions and Proving Bisexuality
00:33:03
Speaker
liked. And there were two questions in a row that
00:33:07
Speaker
separately, they're kind of like questions I've seen before. But together, it it made me think like about something which is one question was, how do I prove to the haters that I'm not secretly gay? And right, that's like a big question for bisexual men is like people are going to think I'm gay. It's so common. you know And I know I'm not gay, but I'm afraid if I come out, people will think I'm gay. But then the the next question was, how do I make sure the world doesn't just see me as bisexual, which is something I've struggled with and probably you especially being like public bisexuals. But I think other people too, like once you start to come out,
00:33:46
Speaker
that becomes this like thing that defines you and you're the bi person in your friend group and every time you hang out with people that's what they talk about so it's this how do you navigate that like when you come out you don't want to be seen as gay so you hit the bi thing hard but then you're almost too bisexual and that's the only thing that defines you how do you navigate that Yeah, it's really hard. I mean, it always comes down to the individual. Like some people like me love being seen as the bisexual guy because that's kind of my thing. But I think for me, it's about having, if you don't want to be seen as too bisexual, then you have to have other things going on. So it might be that, you know, I'm bisexual, but actually, oh, Lewis just does not stop talking about Star Trek and how much he loves Star Trek. He's going to the Star Trek con and he's posting pictures of himself in the Star Trek uniform. So think it's about making sure that you have other things going on outside of your bisexuality, that people are, oh, he has this taste in music or whatever where actually, whilst people know that about you, actually you're then moving on to your other interests and you'd be other things going on in your life. Oh my God, Lewis just always has like the most dramatic stories from his weekend or whatever it is. You know, think about what you would have been known for and what you want people to remember about you and then lean into that as much as you do the bisexual stuff.
00:35:04
Speaker
Interesting. I like it. All right, I'm gonna have to develop some new interests besides women. ah And then, okay, and then there's a series of of questions that I think is like what so many people ask. and And like you said, like with this podcast and now my book, I get those messages too, not in an email, but on social media, usually people often writing a long story about their journey and usually just like saying thanks for for doing this stuff but sometimes asking questions and and I want to I try to respond to them but you're right like. Don't you feel awful when you can't get to them all? Someone's literally open up their soul to you and you're probably one of the only person that they can talk to about this and you just didn't get back to them it's just an awful feeling.
00:35:49
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes i go I find it like a year later and I had had forgotten and just like it it slipped by. And I usually try to write back to people and just say, thanks so much for writing and like thanks for sharing and good luck. And I don't really get into it, but I try to just acknowledge that they that they sent me something or say you know something. but But so many people ask about this, which is like family stuff and coming out to family. So some of the questions in your book are like, is it worth coming out to my family? Is it too late to let my wife or husband know I'm bisexual? What's the best way to come out to my kids as bisexual? So I'm curious if you want to share like your family situation and and your coming out.
00:36:38
Speaker
to to them or like what do you recommend to people? Yeah, um well i can I can talk about my family situation. um So I live in London, but my family is from a place called the Midlands in the yeah UK by Birmingham, although we pronounce it Birmingham.
00:36:55
Speaker
um and Basically, I just felt like I was living two separate lives. It was like, they don't need to know who I'm dating. like I have my life in London, and what does it matter? and I definitely was probably in that space of like, there's no point coming out and risking trouble if I then end up with a girl anyway. like what's the point like I'll let them know if like I end up with a guy, and then that's that. What actually happened? I mean, I come out to different people in the family over the years, but my big problem probably coming out moment was really when I met my fiance.
00:37:27
Speaker
And I think this is the one thing we've coming out that no one ever talks about. So I think when people say come out, like, um <unk>s so there's sort of like this pressure to come out all the time, right? And, and oh, you know, your bi said you're bisexual, quick, out of the closet. It's like, no, actually, sometimes people aren't ready. And I remember early days when I was like hours, but I'll never forget one of my ex's boyfriend's friends said to me, you don't get any 30 year old bisexuals, do you?
00:37:52
Speaker
and i was so like not confident in my sexuality kind of made me thought there was something wrong with it that was like oh yeah i guess you know what i mean and it was like i i kicked myself now that i like wasn't strong enough to stand up for myself back in those days i think sometimes you need to be in that space where you feel strong enough to come out or or sometimes like I've had enough. Like, okay, if you can't accept me for this, then like fine, I'd rather not have you around or whatever it is. For me, the motivation with light Bright, I'm coming out to all of them was that I was in a relationship with a girl that I knew I was gonna go the distance with. And it suddenly occurred to me where I was like, oh my God, if I don't come out,
00:38:36
Speaker
they're gonna think that I'm straight my entire life. I'm gonna always have to play straight for them. And the fear of that is what forced me to come out where it was like, by the way, I'm dating this girl, but I just want you to know I'm bisexual. I don't wanna be seen as of a straight for the rest of my life. And yeah that that for me was like, oh, after all these years of sort of dating people and it being ambiguous, it became this thing. so um That's funny that the that the thing that prompted it was finally like finding a life partner of the of a different gender where you could the thing that you thought would allow you to not have to come out ever actually made you want to come out finally.
00:39:22
Speaker
Yeah, life's funny like that. ha so um but um So I would say that. and my My tip on coming out, and I think I say it in the book as well, is I would say build up your experience with coming out with people that don't matter.
Advice on Coming Out: Start Small
00:39:37
Speaker
If you're thinking of coming out, don't go to the most important person in your life because you have no experience in coming out. I would say come out first to a stranger in a bar. You know what I mean? Actually deal with like questions from people that don't matter. go Go to your friend that you don't actually mind if you you know don't see each other again. You know what I mean? like go and Go to the lowest people in your life first. And then if they have questions, then you're kind of like, oh, I'm prepared for it. And build your way up to the most important people in your life. I think so many people start with the most important people in their life. And and that, I think, is um is my hot tip on coming out.
00:40:14
Speaker
Oh, that's actually really interesting because I've talked to some couples who like the guy comes out to his wife for the and that's the first person who shares it with and she like wants a lot of answers and is really confused and wants reassurance. And he's like, I don't know. um and No one's ever asked me that. I'm not really sure. And so actually what you're saying makes sense and kind of reminds me. I mean, I wasn't in a serious relationship when I came out, which I think was kind of helpful for me because it took some pressure off of the coming out process. But I realized I like
00:40:48
Speaker
I thought i you know my friend one of my friends was the first person I came out to. But actually, I had been coming out to a lot of guys I was hooking up with secretly for years. And they had asked me a bunch of questions. And then then I went to this discussion group where I met 30 strangers and talked about it with them. And I knew none of them. So it felt very easy and safe in a weird way. And actually, that all helped prepare me for when I came out to closer friends and family. and I never really thought about it that way, though. that's Especially if you're in a relationship already or married already and thinking about coming out, it can seem like, how do I talk to someone other than my partner first? That's that's weird, and I should go straight to my partner, but I think that's actually pretty interesting advice. Yeah. Have a whole night of it. Go to a bar where you don't know anyone and just tell yourself, I'm going to come out to three people tonight. yeah You know what I mean? Interesting.
00:41:46
Speaker
And especially because that that one about how do I come out to my wife is probably the most common question I've been asked. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and it's not easy, and it really does not go well a lot of the time. So you kind of have to have a real game plan for that. You really need to be ready for all those questions that are going to come your way.
00:42:04
Speaker
right? Yeah, I'm doing like some life coaching now for for bi men. I mean, I'm coaching anyone but most of my clients are bi men and most of them are either about to come out to their wives, most of them are married to women and about to come out to their wives or recently came out to their wives and are discussing it or came out but want to sort of negotiate or integrate it more into their lives. So it it is probably the most common struggle I've seen. and And it really does depend on each person and their partner and where you are. And like you have to meet your partner kind of where they are at first. Well, I found the two most the two biggest factors to remember in all of that.
00:42:45
Speaker
Number one is, no matter what she says to you, what she's really going to be asking is, how is my life going to be changed by this news? And you need to have a really strong answer on that. It can't be, I don't really know. You need to be saying You know, this is just an FYI because I want to be honest about who I am and close with you. um This is, um you know, actually, I would be open to exploring an open relationship if you're interested in it. But actually, if you really aren't, then that it's not a necessity or, a but or you know, ah you know, I need to explore this and I hope you're okay with that. so
00:43:22
Speaker
And there's lots of different things outside of those, for example. i gave So I think number one is you have to be you have to have a really clear vision for how is this going to change your partner's life. That's what she's going to want to know. And the second thing to always get across, I think, is you have always been married to a bisexual man. It's just that now you know about it. So reminding them of the relationship before. This isn't completely throwing everything out of the water. They've already done it. They've already been in a relationship with a bisexual man all this time.
00:43:50
Speaker
Right. Interesting. Yeah. And it's just becoming open and honest and they're you're you're learning something that was there. Yeah. where when When you met your partner, were you out quick? like what When did you come out to your partner? I guess you were already out and very publicly, right? So this wasn't an issue for you?
00:44:10
Speaker
um Well this was kind of before a lot of the bisexual stuff got started like publicly but um I didn't have to come out to my other half because we met at a house party and um basically it was through a mutual friend and that mutual friend had said like who she would meet at the house party and she was like oh you meet Lewis this is bye guy bo blah blah um And not only that, and she maybe saw me a little bit in action with a guy that I was there with at the time. So she thought there was like no hiding it. Cool, cool. And she was cool with it the whole time? Or was there any like,
00:44:48
Speaker
conflict you know She was totally farmed with it. like She knew what she was getting into um with a bi guy. um I don't think that there were ever any issues with me being bisexual. I think that the there are some maybe situations that all bi people can sometimes fall into when you go from dating a guy to a girl. So just for content, I dated a guy.
00:45:12
Speaker
I was single for six months and then I went into dating a girl and I think maybe just bringing some of that like well this is what it was like when I dated a guy and attitude into dating a girl is not always um it doesn't always fly and you do have to think about it. Like I said, gay and straight people in particular, they have particular ways they like you to do things. So, you know, like the example I always give is, you know, um when I was with my ex-boyfriend and he messaged at 2 a.m. drunk on the way home, was like, I'm on the way home, like, blah, blah, blah, I'm on the bus. You know, my idea of being a good boyfriend would be like to wait before starting the next episode on whatever I was watching on Netflix.
00:45:56
Speaker
when your girlfriend says that, you go to the bus stop and you wave her to get off and you walk her home. ha And you know things like that, there are different, but even like you know just being involved in the gay culture, which is very handsy and very you know gay guys always trying to kiss you and stuff and all that kind of stuff. And my other half being like, but if a straight guy was kissing me and hugging me, like would that be okay? And kind of being like, oh, I guess maybe that wouldn't, but then why do I think that wouldn't?
00:46:23
Speaker
So it can be kind of challenging. so So I would say maybe there were some cultural differences when we started dating that we had to iron out, but nothing like fundamentally with me being bi. Yeah, interesting. That actually sounds like me and my relationship with one person because she transitioned her gender. And like, actually, we had to culturally sort of change some things that like, I assumed we could keep doing the same things because we were the same people. But actually, she part of her transition was like, she wanted to be treated more like a woman, obviously, which makes sense. And like, so
00:46:59
Speaker
I didn't go from one person to another, it was the same person, but we kind of did have to transition the the way we related to each other in some ways because that was, she preferred that. Oh, that's really interesting that there is a book. Yeah, yeah. But it's exactly like what you're saying with two different people in the in terms of the culture, but it was just with one person. Yeah.
00:47:29
Speaker
Hey everyone, thanks for listening to this episode of Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy. There's more with Lewis Oakley. We recorded a longer interview and I decided, again, to split it into two. That just seems to be the way this season is going. Weekly but all divided into two, so essentially the same as biweekly but not divided into two. Anyway, I don't know. Is it working? Is it not? Who cares? Or maybe you do care. Give me some feedback. This workflow works for me, so there's more with Louis Oakley coming up next week. Since this half ended up being a little bit short, I've decided to pad the episode out a little. As you know from last episode, or maybe just from social media, I've been doing some stand-up comedy lately.
00:48:10
Speaker
It's very bisexual. I also talk a lot about having an open marriage and being polyamorous and a lot of the kind of stuff that I talk about here on the podcast. So if you've already seen it, maybe on Instagram, maybe on YouTube, then you can fast forward, ignore the rest of this episode. But just in case, I'm gonna put one of my sets here at the end of this episode for you to enjoy. Just in case you haven't heard the full set or you don't know where it is on YouTube or my website and you're listening to this podcast feed,
00:48:39
Speaker
Here it is. I'm making it easy for you. I'm doing shameless self-promotion because it's my podcast and it's just me. And so I can do whatever I want. I edit it and I can edit it how I want.
Rob's Comedy Debut: Bisexuality and Identity
00:48:49
Speaker
So here you go. This is my first ever show that I did. I took a stand-up class and this was our class showcase. So I had done some open mics, but this is the first real show I ever did.
00:49:02
Speaker
It is on YouTube. It is on my website, robertbrokescohen.com. But here it is. It's about six minutes. Enjoy. Thanks for listening to this episode, and I'll see you next week.
00:49:35
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I'm Rob. And hi. Hello. I'm Rob and I am bisexual. um Or as my wife says, gay.
00:49:48
Speaker
are um
00:49:54
Speaker
um
00:50:01
Speaker
I was straight for a while. I thought so. I didn't start exploring with men until my late 20s. And it's really scary when you're just starting to explore because you can out yourself unexpectedly before you're ready. Like this one time I went to a gay masturbation party.
00:50:22
Speaker
Anyone ever been to one of those? um And I went and I wasn't out yet and I spotted a co-worker there. And I was terrified. I barely even looked at him while we were jerking each other off. um
00:50:43
Speaker
I used to think that being with men would be this like wildly different experience, but it's actually surprisingly similar to being with women. like Regardless of gender, kissing feels the same. And regardless of gender, there's an emotional connection. And regardless of gender, they always ask, is it in yet?
00:51:02
Speaker
um
00:51:08
Speaker
Even the courtship process feels similar. Like with women, before you have sex, you have to look into their eyes and listen and be attentive to their feelings and their desires. And with men, you have to look into their eyes, and that's it, actually. um
00:51:27
Speaker
Most bi guys are not out, so if you do come out as bi, a lot of other guys will start coming out to you and only you. This has been happening to me a lot lately. I feel like a priest.
00:51:43
Speaker
They're all like, bless me, Robert, for I am bi. It's been three days since my last anonymous blowjob. I'm truly sorry for not reciprocating, but I still think that dicks are kind of gross. um And I'm like, OK, get down on your knees and give me five who's your daddies. um
00:52:08
Speaker
But I'm not just a gay priest. I'm also Jewish.
00:52:15
Speaker
are thank you What's weird about being Jewish is that the most extravagant parties you ever went to in your entire life were all during the seventh grade bar mitzvah circuit. Like, when I was in seventh grade, I went to a bar mitzvah on a yacht that circled the Statue of Liberty with a 15-piece band and a caviar buffet. So yeah, sorry, Tiffany, that I'm not super excited about your rustic barnyard wedding.
00:52:48
Speaker
but Those bar mitzvahs really set me up for a lifetime of disappointment, which is a core Jewish value, so it worked. um
00:53:00
Speaker
I don't have kids yet, but most of my friends do. Isn't it weird seeing your friends' annoying qualities get passed down to their kids?
00:53:13
Speaker
Like, my one friend, he's so stingy, and now his eight-year-old won't even loan me money. I'm also married, I've been with my wife for five years.
00:53:28
Speaker
We have an open relationship, but sometimes when we want to spice things up, we'll try monogamy.
00:53:40
Speaker
The craziest thing, we're poly, so we date other people, and the craziest thing about that is helping your spouse through a breakup with someone else. um Like, recently, my wife was telling me about this guy that she broke up with, and she was really upset, and she was like, he never talks about his feelings, and he only texts me when he wants sex, and he wants me to do kinky things in bed, and I was like, oh, babe, but that sucks. Can I have his number, though?
00:54:16
Speaker
It's hard explaining an open marriage to your parents. My mom was really confused. She was like, if you love each other, why bring other people into it? And I was like, well, you and dad love each other, and you brought me into it. And she was like, oh, honey, no, we stopped loving each other long before we had you.
00:54:44
Speaker
um I am codependent with my mom. um I used to hide things from her that she might not approve of, but then she'd be even more mad that I kept a secret. Like, she was totally cool that I was bi, but she was upset that I didn't tell her sooner. So now I just check in with her whenever I try something new.
00:55:07
Speaker
um Last week I called her and I was like, hey mom, I'm at this party and I'm about to get Eiffel Tower. That's when, oh, you've heard of it. um Yeah, both holes, that's right. um Well, thank you, but I wasn't asking for your permission. I was just letting you know. Yes, mom, I'll remember to tickle the balls. Ew, I do not need to know how much dad likes that.
00:55:38
Speaker
Thank you guys, everyone.
00:55:45
Speaker
Give it up for Tickling the Balls. um
00:56:02
Speaker
Hey guys, hope you enjoyed that. That was my first stand-up set.
Upcoming Content on Two Bye Guys
00:56:06
Speaker
I have a few more, maybe I'll include them here, but you can go watch them right now on my website or on YouTube, robertbrickscon.com. That's all I got for today. Stay tuned for more with Louis Oakley next week. And if you're listening to this on the day it comes out, Happy Bisexual Visibility Day, or as it's also known, Celebrate Bisexuality Day, whatever you want to call it, be visible, be bi, do crimes,
00:56:32
Speaker
and enjoy the rest of Buy Visibility Month and the rest of September. See you next week, and thanks for listening to Two Bye, guys. Bye, one bye.
00:56:43
Speaker
Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our new logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Mincer. To help support this podcast, visit Patreon dot.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen. You get early access, bonus content, and full video episodes. Visit RobertBrooksCohen.com to learn more about my coaching, my book, and my stand-up comedy. And thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys by One Bye Guy.