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You Cannot Run with the Hare and Hunt with the Hounds
44 Plays4 months ago
In this episode Andrew and Patrick discuss authenticity and what it means to be true to oneself.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Concept
00:00:00
Speaker
and the brave new world begin begins when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the coffee book headings with terror and slaughter eternal
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello, everybody, and thank you for joining us for another episode of the Copybook Headings podcast. If you're a new listener, just joining us for the first time. This show is inspired by the poem by Rudyard Kipling called The Gods of the Copybook Headings. so And every week we take an old saying, proverb or maxim, and we break it down to see what we can learn from it and see if there's still any ancient wisdom that's still relevant today.
Weather Talk and Transition
00:00:48
Speaker
I'm your host, Patrick Payne, and with me as always is my co-host, Andrew Stevens. Andrew, how you doing, man? Hey, I'm doing great. How are you tonight? Oh, you know, uh, same old, same old here today. Not, not much to report yeah usual day work, whatever. Oh, it's been cold here up in Idaho. I don't know if you got a cold snap down in Utah where you're at, but it's, uh, for June it's stinking cold out today. Yeah. It just, it just blew in for us this afternoon. It was, it's been pretty warm and then we've had like really high winds all afternoon and and now it's pretty chilly and it, uh,
00:01:25
Speaker
i was I was pretty upset, though, because it knocked most of my plums off my plum tree. They're still young and green. So everything like on the north side of the the tree got blown off, because that's where the wind was coming in. and I mean, we we always get some kind of windstorm this time of year that always thins them out. But it was extreme this year, I thought. So sorry, neighbors, you won't get as many plums from us. It's that Mountain West weather. You never know what to expect. Next next week, we're and yes we're supposed supposed to be in the 90s here. And today, it was like 50 and windy and cold. So who knows? Oh, wow. but Yeah, we're not supposed to get that cold. That's but something else.
00:02:07
Speaker
Yeah, it was chilly. Anyway, all right. um Well, if we have nothing, no more small talk to make, nothing else to report. We'll jump right into the podcast, or jump right into the proper. ah Yeah, so this is one, this is one you selected, right? You wanna tell us about it?
Exploration of the Proverb
00:02:24
Speaker
That's right, you cannot run, oh gosh, what was there? you You can't run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. Yep. That's this one, as you all already know from the title of this one. It's ah is is another one that goes back to to England. I found 15th century ah with the works of John Lydgate and the familiar John Haywood that we've come across before. So yeah, this is just ah
00:02:57
Speaker
like i think like the last one we did it's it's one that was a little unfamiliar but it you're right away there's something that that catches you about it that that sounds familiar reminds you of other proverbs um but i just i just like the uh i like the framing with the the the hunting you know the hunting and the countryside kind of uh kind of thing so yeah that's why i grabbed this one yeah it's a good one and that haywood i mean he had his book of proverbs from
00:03:28
Speaker
1546. Is that the book that you have? You have a book of Proverbs? That's not that one. Is it? ah It's a different one. That's not that one. I need to, I need to get a beat on that one. cause So I want to want to find that. I'm sure it's on some, you know, PDF site, some scan of of an old copy of that. I need to find the track that down because I'd really love to to read through that because yeah, he keeps coming up. Any English proverb comes through him really. So totally. I'd like to get a copy of it too. If I can, fact if we can hunt one down, I'll have to look at that because yeah, like you said, we keep, we keep bumping into to John Heywood over and over. So, uh, yeah, it's pretty cool. I wonder if it's, it's probably 1546, probably in the old spellings and stuff would be kind of cool to read. They're kind of fun. to yeah
00:04:15
Speaker
um Yeah, so his version, I think, of this one was, who so hunteth two hares looseth both? That's what I found okay for him. So it's a little different, but different same kind of, and that one actually might even be the more common one. I feel like that one's more familiar to me. is it more is that one What do you think about that? I don't know that I've ever heard that one. Okay. um Just the concept of like, you know, whoever chases yeah the the dog that chases two rabbits loses both. Like I think I feel like I've heard that more but um but this version that we're doing I think it's cool too. You can't run you cannot run with the hair and hunt with the hounds.
Personal Insights and Political Views
00:04:57
Speaker
um
00:05:00
Speaker
Do you have to pick a side right you have to pick Yeah, who you're gonna be and and what you're gonna do. Yeah, that's kind of what I and understood from it is that you can't, you can't play both sides. Yeah. Yeah, because but with the the other formulation with like going after two hairs, I think that's just a different problem. I think it's conceptually different enough that we could probably talk about that separately, because, because these ones, they're opposing sides, right? It's not like you're trying to choose between two things, and you don't, and you lose them both. But this is like, um you know, yeah, like say you can't play both sides, you can't,
00:05:36
Speaker
you know, fight a war on on for both sides or things like that, right? you This is one where it's it's a stark contrast. Yeah, and that's a fair point. um Yeah, it really is. It's like you can't be... ah Like, because Chase and Rabbids, both of those could be going after two simultaneously good things and you have to pick one of them. Whereas this is not. If if if the Heirs are the good guys, then the Hounds are the bad guys, or vice versa. It's like, you can't do good and do evil. Like, you have to pick one. Yeah. Now, when I suggested this one, did anything come to mind um from your experiences? this and Anything that rang a bell for you?
00:06:26
Speaker
um
00:06:29
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, some some ideas of like, what came to mind was just, you know ima I was raised in a religious home, you know ah going to church, that sort of thing. and And when you decide to live your life in that way as like a religious person, there's things you have to give up and things you have to avoid. And if you don't, then that kind of hypocrisy can cause all sorts of problems. So that's kind of what came to mind for me is,
00:07:01
Speaker
by choosing one, you're you're not just unselecting the other, you're kind of working, you're kind of declaring war on the other, right? You can't say, yeah, I'm in favor of these hounds, but I kind of like the hairs too. It's like, no, like those hairs are gonna get torn up if you're on the side of the ah the hounds, right? And if you're on the side of the hair, those hounds might go hungry. Like it's it's one or the other. Someone's gonna win and someone's gonna lose. And you have to be, there's no there's no sit in the fence on this one. And so um yeah, I guess I guess the first thing that came to mind was that just living your life and like the religious concept of it. Yeah, that's great. because That's, this is kind of a rephrasing of, you know, something from the New Testament, right? That you can't serve two masters. Yeah, that you can you can love God or you can love mammon and, and not both. So yeah. Yeah.
00:07:59
Speaker
How about you? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I thought of that too. um You know, one thing. Yeah, I guess one thing that came to mind, it's it's somewhat silly, but it's something gets on my nerves. But so I'm, you know, a somewhat conservative guy. I tend to i vote Republican. I suppose that probably does not surprise any of our listeners. Um, so here in, in Utah, pretty, it's a pretty rough Republican state, pretty single party state. Um, and there, and come like primary election time, there's always this kind of this tension because people, there's not a lot of Democrats. So really the choice comes down in the Republican primary. That's those are your choices, right? That's what but really where the big vote is. And so, you know, one strategy with people who are.
00:08:52
Speaker
more lean Democrat is, okay, well, we're going to register as Republicans and help choose the Republican candidate to kind of push things the way the direction we like. Um, so you have a lot of people who would normally be Democrats signing up as Republicans and it just, and, uh, you know, there's nothing illegal about that, but I, I find it kind of. Personally, ah I don't like that as a, um, on the on the moral grounds, I guess. It's a fair play. I don't think it's ah it's a ah fair way to play, but it's explicitly not disallowed. So that ah kind of um but kind of duplicitous, in my mind, um responding a way to go about that, i just that's what came to mind with this one for me.
Values vs. Workplace and Integrity
00:09:39
Speaker
It's kind of being a... you know And maybe it doesn't even line up right, but that's that's kind of what I thought of.
00:09:47
Speaker
No, I think it does like you got some you got some hounds and hairs clothing, you know, they're coming. Yeah, they're saying they're one thing. Yeah, no, I understand what you mean. Like you said, there's nothing illegal about it. But it does seem kind of kind of dishonest and sleazy. It's like, if you have an opinion, you should stand on the party that yeah, that where you belong rather than trying to fool people into thinking you belong to another party. so you can you know and um And not only just voters do that, I'll bet there's political candidates that would fit in oh yeah far better in in the in the opposition party in another state, but that there is no opposition party where it's really weak. So rather than trying to you know stand up for what they
00:10:24
Speaker
but what and being truly open about what they want and and joining the party and lose, they want to win. So they're they're kind of so being sneaky. I couldn't do that. i couldn't I couldn't see myself joining the Democrat party the in the states in a blue state to try to move it. I i don't think that would happen. Yeah. and it's um And yeah, there are people who, who take it as far as like standing for office or, or being involved in the, the elections on on a more local level. Yeah. And it's like, I don't know, it would it would be rough to, I, I, yeah, I also could not do that where, um, you kind of have to justify it to yourself and justify it to your neighbors that like, Oh, well, you know, um,
00:11:12
Speaker
do I stand for what this party stands for? Well, kind of, but, you know, just you get into the technicalities and and and having just, and not just only in that circumstance, in any circumstance where you're in that situation, where you put yourself in that situation, you kind of start to tear yourself apart, I think. And i like so and it's just not good mentally to to do that. That's why I think this really comes down to with this proverb is that it's an admonition to to avoid that kind of thing, internal that internal conflict that arises. Yeah, 100%. It has ah actual harm on you when you live your life in a duplicitous way. When you when you have when you're trying to play both sides, when you're trying to try to you know live live a double life or or or even just be someone that you're not, it has a it's gonna have a negative effect on you. And it might not show up right away, but I mean, it's like,
00:12:11
Speaker
yourre I don't think your soul can remain intact. You're gonna have some sort of personality crisis or some sort of issue or or it's gonna make you weak. like I just don't think you can be the kind of person that's not honest for years and years and years and and then have it not affect you. um So yeah, you're doing yourself harm. ah i I mean, going back to to my to my my faith tradition, I see people sometimes that will, you know, I tend church with and then they're, they're espousing ideas that I know are contrary to what, to what the faith teaches. And so I don't know kind of where they how they justify that or I even know some people that will fully admit they don't, they don't believe in, in the faith, but they go because of social pressure or because their parents want them to or because it's easier to just not rock the boat in their, in their, in their family. I find that just kind of horrifying, frankly.
00:13:09
Speaker
Yeah Now what do you think like to to give the benefit of the doubt for this, you know, what about when it comes to um You know being fully honest about what you believe when it comes when it conflicts with something like work right when the value your personal values conflict with The people who might hire or fire you right like you might not um You might not openly go against what you believe, but you might hide it a bit, right? Like, do you think that has the same effect like internally of ah ah being damaging? Yeah, I do. I do. I think so. And I mean, I don't know how to articulate a hard and fast line there. I think that's something that everyone's going to have to make for themselves. But I mean, I'll just tell you my story.
00:14:03
Speaker
um ah Growing up as a younger man, I wanted to work in and the intelligence business. I thought, you know maybe working in the CIA or and NSA or you know was one of these intelligence gathering agencies for the, one of these three letter agencies that works for the government. That's what I wanted to do. yeah And so I started studying studying social sciences and foreign policy, that sort of thing, thinking it would get me there. I even you know did a year of ROTC in college thinking I would go military route, maybe go become an intelligence officer or something like that. And along the way, I started reading every book I could on the agency, the CIA, that sort of thing. And and I discovered that that's not a place that I wanted to work. um there was There was just a too much stuff going on. Not that everyone there is bad, but man, there's a lot of bad stuff that goes on there to the point where I just didn't think I could do it.
00:14:50
Speaker
and it was it was That was the point I was graduating from college. it was It would have been time to start applying for jobs in some of these places, and I never did. I never applied for a single one because I was like i just i just had decided that that those places didn't align with my values. they They were a totally different thing than what I thought they were. I thought they were these tireless patriots that were going around the world, you know working hard to you know protect freedom at home. you know like Yeah, it was Jack Ryan, right? yeah Exactly. Yeah. You see these movies and you read these books and you think, hey, man, that guy seems cool. It seems like an honest guy. And and Jack Ryan was an honest guy in the books. you know He was considered the Boy Scout. And he would blow the whistle on bad things happening. And you're like, yeah, that sounds great. And then you read books of that aren't fiction that are true. And you see this stuff and you're like, man, this is this is brutal. So yeah, i I think you raised an excellent point. that I don't think you can work a place that do does fully does not it align with your values.
00:15:46
Speaker
And I mean, it's going to, it's going to tear you up. Um, yeah but you know, that being said, I mean, I don't know if it's possible to find a company that agrees with me on every issue. So I don't know. there's and That's where the gray area comes in a little bit, I guess. Yeah, I guess that's right. Yeah. It's that where everyone becomes an entrepreneur and, and, uh, but then you run into the same question that, well, you know, what do I agree with my clients? Do I drew agree with my customers? Do I, you know, yeah. There's a ah point where you just kind of have to let things go as far as other people's opinions.
00:16:24
Speaker
Yeah, and and I think for the sake of, I don't want it to make it seem like you have to be overly hostile all the time. like we can We can get along with each other, and but I think you should be honest. And there's ah there's there's ah something to be said for just keeping your mouth shut. like It's like, okay, is there gonna be any value for me spouting off and saying, I disagree with all of this and in a board meeting or something? It's like, it yeah if it doesn't matter much, maybe just go along to get along sometimes. ah but if But if you're asked, if you're pressed on it, I think 100%, you should be honest. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, because you know I think a lot of you know a lot of companies, the leadership at will have a certain viewpoint and um it's you know it's it's acceptable to to to
00:17:12
Speaker
mirror that when you're lower down.
Social and Internet Pressures
00:17:14
Speaker
but so And some people have the good sense to just be quiet if they don't agree with it, but then there's some people who just do not have that good sense and they just have to to to kick against the pricks, I guess. And and to yeah and and to go back to like the the the party, like the Republican party thing here where I live, like, yeah, I mean, these are a lot of these people are like my neighbors, for example, and they're great neighbors and I enjoy being around them, but it's just, yeah, so that one little pet peeve where, um, I wish they wouldn't do that. So, um, yeah, when it comes to, yeah, go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say, I have a lot more respect for somebody who, who's really just very clear about their opinions. And, and even if it doesn't try to, doesn't try to, you know, modify it or or change it to kind of fit in more, but yeah, yeah that was the point I was going to make. What were you going to say?
00:18:10
Speaker
Well, I was just gonna kind of shift like we often do towards you know the next generation and um and your experience in um modeling this for your kids or or teaching them explicitly about and you know saying what you basically saying what you believe and believing what you say and and all that. What do you what do you think? um Yeah. um Honesty is huge for me, and and we work really hard to teach our kids that. Some kids are just kind of naturally naturally that way. they're and they they don't there's In them is no guile, as I said, right? um And some kids, are you know they'll tell a little fib. You're there, and you've got to kind of watch them with it. and and you know
00:19:00
Speaker
you know, I don't want to like, pick on one or the other because everyone's got their strengths and their weaknesses. But um you know, certain things that come naturally to certain kids, that's great. And some things that don't, but you might need to work with them a little bit. But yeah, we, we, um we, I mean, really repetition, just ah making sure kids understand what the what the standards are. And, and, and i've I've talked to my kids about, you know, if in school, whether it be another kid or a teacher or something says something that's against their values. Like they have every right to say they don't agree with it and they shouldn't be afraid of.
00:19:36
Speaker
being ostracized by friends. I shouldn't be afraid of a teacher calling them out or giving them a bad grade or anything like that. And so um I don't know. I don't know if they'll do it. um you know It's tough when you get into those situations, but we i've I've tried to prepare them and say, hey, look, if someone's telling you something you don't agree with, you have every right to respectfully say, I don't agree with that. And and I hope that they they have the courage to do it. That's a tough thing sometimes to know. Am I remaining silent to try to keep the peace? Or am I remaining silent because I'm too afraid? You know, it's like, yeah i should I speak up here and am I doing and not doing it out of cowardice? Or should I not speak up and just is it is it the prudent thing to to remain silent? And that's a difficult thing. I've wondered that myself. I'm like, I'm not saying anything. Is it because I'm, is it because I'm really deep down? I'm scared because I don't want someone to, I don't want the backlash. Or is it because I'm trying to be, be a nice guy? That's, that can be hard.
00:20:28
Speaker
Yeah, I'm thinking back, you know, when I was when i was younger, like, you know, this I think this is a big one for teenagers, um kind of deciding what kind of crowd you're going to run with. And right, because you you grow up in your younger years, and you're part of like your family culture and your family's values. And then you get to a point where you're kind of, you can experiment with that and whether and you can you can push back against it or you can can accept it and and And I think that's something that happens a lot of time in high school, kind of picking your friend group. Maybe it's different than maybe you like you ran with the church kids when you're in middle school, but then you're in high school and you have a different crowd on your, your football team or whatever. And that's kind of really where you're, you're testing, you know, tested with, with who you're gonna, who you're gonna align with and what your values are going to be. Um, and.
00:21:27
Speaker
I don't know, I ran into that personally and I think I made good decisions, but that is something I think about with my own kids, like looking forward and in, you know, as they become their own social creatures, like what are they, like what of what I teach them, are they going to accept and what are they going to reject and um who's going to have an influence on them? Yeah. um When you were saying that, it made me think also of you know the like the the the different friend groups and sometimes the kids will act differently in different groups and and and kind of bounce back and forth. And and um not to be too harsh on kids because they're kids and they're they're learning. um but yeah But that is something that you'll want to grow out of. That's something that you know isn't isn't ah
00:22:17
Speaker
a trait that a good man wants or a good woman wants that's an adult. You want to know who you are at some point in your life and be like, okay. Maybe that takes a little bit of trying things on for size and especially if you didn't have a strong upbringing that gave you certain guidelines and values, you may bounce around and figure out where you fit or what you believe and what you don't. and You know, i've I've certainly changed my opinions on on on various things, but but yeah, you you see that as kids, you see that in junior high school and high school ah where kids will act one way with one friend group, then act another way with another friend group, and and they they just haven't really figured out who they are, but that that's a, there's probably a saying, I think, in that case and in many others, um you just, you can't, you can't do both forever. yeah At some point you're gonna have to stay.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. and And even like between the groups, right? Cause you got the, you act one way with one group of friends and another way with another and eventually that'll clash, right? And you really do have to kind of pick, pick the one way of being or the other. Yep. Yep. I think so. Um, this is usually kind of when we bring up the, the gods of the marketplace. You have any thoughts on that? Um, you know, I, I think, I think people understand and accept this one, but then,
00:23:48
Speaker
um
00:23:51
Speaker
well, I mean, and there's, I guess there's there's, like with anything, there's enough, enough people out there that you get a good sampling of everything, right? But so, you know, on the one side you've got people, the way people are online, if they're anonymous, they act differently. um, and in person versus online. And and I think that, that is the same kind of conflict that can be like that internal conflict that can be damaging to a person. Um, but I also think in the broad culture, there's like, you know, you, you do need to be, you do need to pick between, between one, the two, but you need to pick this one, right? Like, um, the other way is not acceptable. You are.
00:24:36
Speaker
you are a hound, you have to be the hound and you can't be the hair because the hairs are bad and and and vice versa. So you um there's there's I think there's a lot more pressure these days to, or at least in in certain directions to to pick to the exclusion of the other just because you're not allowed to be the other. So I think that's right. And I think, I think, uh, This one might be taken too far. um Yeah, which kind of what I was thinking was you were talking is like just the sometimes the tribalism where you have to if you're gonna run with the hounds you have to eat sleep and breathe hound all the time. You know, yeah.
00:25:18
Speaker
You can't do anything different ever. And and if if you're not with us 100% of the time, you're against us. So I think this can be taken too far. I think this is this is wonder if you take it too much to an extreme. Everyone's an individual and everyone's going to have some so some varied views and no no two human beings are alike. So when you're in a group, um you know, everyone coming to the same conclusion on everything is is just like a statistical impossibility. And yet, we talked about political parties, you see people in parties all kind of thinking the same way. And you're like, all right, well, a lot of them are probably just thinking that way. Because their party thinks that way. And they haven't really examined every one of these issues. Because if everybody had, you'd probably have a little bit more variance in, in you know, how people think on things. So um so yeah, i I think this one is good advice generally.
00:26:07
Speaker
uh you need to know where you stand you need to know what your values are and uh and you need to stick to them um but but yeah it can be it could be abused if taken if taken to an extreme yeah what the like the all the various like subcultures you run into now that the internet facilitates feels a lot like the high school clique right where um you have to you kind of get my It's demanded you're all in, but it's, but it ends up being like a weird, ah weird subculture that doesn't make sense to anyone else outside of it. You know, like, like your parents, when you're, when you're going through your goth phase in high school, your parents are like, what's going on? But, but, you know, but people are doing that, you know, for their whole life now. Yeah. And with politics, it's a big one where you got to be all in with, you know, whatever your, your party is doing. And it didn't used to be like that, but that's kind of what the the times demand now.
00:27:04
Speaker
and it makes for a lot of what attention in society. Yeah, I think that's right. um I'm trying to think if, okay, if we could if we could kind of distill this down a little bit and to give, like if you had a young person coming to you and wanted some advice around this, I'm trying to think if there's a way we could make it make it a little more modern or or accessible. Any thoughts on that? I'm trying to think of something here. If you if you don't think of anything, I'll, maybe I'll be able to come up with something. I just was was curious about that.
00:27:45
Speaker
Oh, I might be able to, but I didn't hear your thoughts first. So I was just thinking something maybe like, um, uh, kind of being true to who you are kind of thing or, or, or being true to your values. Um, And yeah, and not not avoiding hypocrisy, doing doing the things that you say that you believe in, you're doing, you know. um you know, if you're the kind of guy who's online posting about, you know, you should be, you know, investing all your money, but then you're broke, and you you spend all your money, you know, invest that like, it's like, that wouldn't be, or if you're like, you should be working out every day, and then you don't like, you know, um yeah, I think you should be true to what you're saying, I think you should say what you do and do what you say. I don't like, I can't make worded as well as this, but I was just, ah
00:28:42
Speaker
Um, maybe it doesn't need to be maybe maybe i'm trying to reinvent the wheel. We've already got a good problem for this. Yeah Well, maybe well, I like I like where you're going with that because um I think what that does it It enforces the the idea that you really need to be doing this like in real life, right? You have to Figure out who you are in real life and deal with people in real life um and that's where you'll solidify things because You can be fake on the internet and everyone can be fake with you on the internet and you have no idea. But if you get out there in real life and and meet real people, you can, you can figure these things out real quickly, whether someone's legit, whether they do what they say. And you can also be that kind of person to other people. You can, you can demonstrate whether you know what you're talking about. And, and I think that cuts out a lot of problems.
Conclusion and Personal Integrity Emphasis
00:29:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think you're right. I've met people sometimes that I've had known online and sometimes they're exactly the person, like who's yeah like the exact person. and Sometimes they're a little different, you know. um I think I'm probably not, I mean, i maybe I'm probably a little more harsh sometimes or extreme online, ah but i did have ah I did one time have dinner with a guy that I met online and and afterwards, some guys were joking in one of our group chats and they were like, are you sure it was him? And he's like, it was him. um I was sure. So like, okay, hopefully I'm not too different. Like he was just, he spotted me like immediately. So, uh, but anyway, yeah, no, I think that's good. It's good to be, good to be true to yourself. Good to be a genuine person and, uh, and don't have any guile in you, but yeah, this was a good one, man. I liked it. Yeah, that was great. Thank you.
00:30:23
Speaker
Yeah, all right, well, that's about all the time we have, guys, but thanks so much for listening, and remember, you cannot run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. You gotta pick one or the other. And in the while you're doing that, make sure you subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast subscription service, and we will see you guys all next week. All right, we'll see ya. There are only four things certain since social progress began, that the dog returns to his vomit, and the sow returns to her mom. and the bird through the bandaged finger goes wobbling back to the fire. And that after this is accomplished and the brave new world begins, when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sin, as surely as water will wet us, as surely as fire will burn, the gods of the copy were hideous, with terrors,