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00:00:01
A Man Convinced Against His Will is Of the Same Opinion Still
62 Plays4 months ago
In this episode Patrick and Andrew are joined by Adam Ebberts, podcaster and licensed therapist to discuss how human beings process information, how to communicate effectively online, the problems with most modern therapists, and how to use the Socratic Method to uncover truth.
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Transcript
Introduction & Inspiration
00:00:00
Speaker
and the brave new world begin begins when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the coffee book headings with terror and slaughter eternal
00:00:28
Speaker
Hello, everybody, and thank you for joining us for another episode of the Copybook Headings podcast. If you're a new listener, just joining us for the first time. This show is inspired by the poem by Rudyard Kipling called The Gods of the Copybook Headings. And every week we take an old saying, proverb, or maxim, and we break it down to see what we can learn from it and see if there's any old wisdom that's still relevant today.
Guest Introduction: Adam Eberts
00:00:47
Speaker
I'm your host Patrick Payne and with me as always is my co-host Andrew Stevens. Andrew, how you doing buddy? Hey, I'm doing great. How are you? Excited. We got a, we got a good guest, too and another guest episode this time. Yes. So I wish we had more guest episodes. We're going to have to get on that and do more of them because I think they're really fun. So, uh, we, we are joined today by Adam Eberts. Adam. You're welcome. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for inviting me. I'm stoked to be here.
00:01:12
Speaker
Yeah. ah Do you want to start? Maybe tell tell our listeners who don't know who you are a little bit about you. I know you've you've ah worked on on a and another podcast in the past with our one of our former guests, Tanner Guzy, and then you have a podcast with your wife currently, correct? Yep.
Family Podcast: 'No Small Vision'
00:01:27
Speaker
Yeah. with ah So Spiritual Arson with Tanner that ran for about two years. and We're currently on hiatus. We'll pick it up at some point. And then my wife and I do one called No Small Vision where we just talk about, like I said, just kind of the decisions we're making as parents and some of the things that we're doing. We've got eight kids, to big family. And so a lot of what we do is unconventional and and just trying to make it work. and
00:01:52
Speaker
trying to justify ourselves a little bit in the podcast so that our kids at some point can go back and listen to why we made these terrible decisions on their behalf growing up. And what was that all about? And they can go and kind of listen to our rationale, whereas now they're not all old enough to be able to have those conversations with us. So it's kind of the premise there. We get into a lot of current events and just other sort of ramblings, but um It's a lot of fun cuz these are the conversation she and I have all the time and so we just yeah were like Let's just record them throw them out there for people to listen in on I guess so other than that I just ah you know post crap on Twitter and piss people off and
Therapy Insights: Adam's Perspective
00:02:30
Speaker
You do that? sometimes that's for sure it's easy easy to do Not justified um but in in your day job, you're a you're a therapist, correct?
00:02:38
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, licensed, licensed therapists. Okay, sweet. So if we have any ah therapy sessions, a little little meast therapy session here, is that cool? If I tell lay on the couch and tell you what's wrong with me? Oh, sure. Yeah. we can Break out the cocaine and do it old school like like Yeah um Well, um, so sorry, what's this is what's this podcast rated? yeah Yeah So I know we're gonna we're gonna come in at e for everyone ah Yeah, so uh, but you you selected the proverb this week and I love it when our guests do that sometimes people are just like, yeah I don't care, you know, whatever
00:03:20
Speaker
You pick one for me just kind of to get the conversation going but but you selected this one and I I love that So you want to tell us what it is? Yeah, so so the saying is when I use a ton I've tweeted it a ton It's it's something that I just kind of live by it's a man a again um a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still And I've always heard this attributed to Benjamin Franklin, but it it actually came way before him. I did a little research when he invited me on. I was like, where does this actually come from? Because I doubt he coined it. And I think the earliest reference I've been able to find to it was like 1638 or something like that printed somewhere. And even then it appears as though it's a quotation. So who knows where it comes from?
Proverbs & Personal Beliefs
00:04:01
Speaker
Um, there's a similar one that I kind of threw at you too, which was you can't wake a man that only pretends to be asleep and it's kind of related to that. Um, the principle is the same for both of those, those sayings. So a man convinced against his will is of the same opinions to like joke all the time that like, you know, there's old lady cross stitch, like home, sweet home plaques that they hang on their wall. You know, i I want one with this quote printed on it and we're stitched into it and hung on my wallet at home and and at my office. So, um, But yeah, wait how how do you wanna attack it? i'm Well, I'm curious, how'd you come across that one and...
00:04:37
Speaker
and And what resonated with you? um So I don't I don't remember the first time I saw it, i but I believe it was a Benjamin Franklin quote. And um Benjamin, like Twitter was made for Benjamin Franklin. Like he would kill it on Twitter because he's he's pithy. He's you know, just a lot of kind of quick quips and stuff and um lots of phrases and statements and things like that. So I like found it with him. And it was at a time, I think, where I was just kind of getting into my career, uh, doing therapy, you know, prior to that, I'd done some other things, but really kind of getting into therapy and it just kind of resonated with that. Um, cause there's, you know, there, you have to be kind of careful with therapy and and that's a whole rabbit hole we can kind of get down. But, um,
00:05:29
Speaker
The people people are resistant to ideas that that don't start in their own head, right? And so if you come at somebody with an idea and try to convince them of something, they're they're way more likely to reject it just because they have kind of preconceived ideas and whatever. And so it it requires a little bit of finesse to um help people see things differently than they currently do. And and so from from a therapeutic standpoint, I share this with clients all the time that like i'm I'm not here to convince you of anything. I can't convince you of anything. In fact, if I tried to convince you of something, you would reject it and fight against it. and I noticed this kind of early in my career before I really knew what I was doing. um A lot of therapists kind of fancy themselves as like advice givers, which is awful. If you're seeing a therapist and they dispense advice, fire them and find a new one.
00:06:17
Speaker
ah it in Instead, it's it's something else that we're doing entirely, like or should be doing anyway. um But I noticed that when you kind of threw out advice, even well intentioned and even sound advice, it gave people an opportunity to kind of pit themselves against it, and and to sort of argue with it. and And this this therapy session that's supposed to be sort of a collaborative effort to find solutions to your problems ah becomes this sort of adversarial process that I just I was like, what what are we even doing in here? Like, this is stupid. and And I, you know, stumbling across that quote, just really kind of like, okay, like, that's kind of what's going on here. You can't change somebody's mind who doesn't want to be changed. And you can't convince somebody of something that they they're they're comfortable for whatever reason. And there's hundreds of reasons we
00:07:06
Speaker
maintain kind of the status quo, right? Maintaining stasis and coming at it directly just almost never works. So I hope that answers
Persuasion in Therapy & Sales
00:07:17
Speaker
your question. um Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. This one resonated with me a little bit too. Just. by By trade, I'm a sales rep. so i mean i I talk to people about things all the time, and and it's the same thing. people Sometimes they're afraid of sales reps because they don't want them to try to like change their mind, but I'm like, I literally can't. like I can present information, but i I can't do some Jedi mind trick on you and change your mind. like All I can do is just have a conversation with you about it, figure out what you need, and see if a product that we offer fits that need.
00:07:44
Speaker
um So yeah, it resonated with me a ton, especially someone who's very online. like We heard that like you know you've been in some argument with someone at some point you know about something, and and it's it's usually a waste of time to try to to try to change their mind. Yeah, and and I apply this to Twitter quite a bit, too. um Kind of early on, I'd get in there and get scrapping with people, but it's pretty easy right away to sort of discern. I hate arguments, and I hate, like, freaking academic arguments. Like, they drive me insane. People are like, well, actually, you're you know and getting into the I just, it drives me nuts, because you're just two people talking past each other, just trying to dunk on each other.
00:08:25
Speaker
Thinking you're making your your point and even if the other person has to like concede the point They do it grudgingly and they're not actually convinced of anything And and i've just come to really kind of loathe argument for the sake of the audience I don't really like that at all Because nine times out of the ten the audience also has their mind made up about something or another, right? Like we're seeing that right now if I can get a little political, right? Uh old man goes out there and completely bombs a press conference. And then you see people who are like, oh, that was so amazing because he didn't poop his pants on the stage. Right. Like, OK, like you're you're already convinced of something and you're going to find the evidence to sort of support that. yeah um And so when I'm engaging with somebody in Twitter, or somebody just kind of comes at me with something stupid, it's like I can tell right away that it's going to cut it's going to take way too much work.
00:09:12
Speaker
to even get you to a point where you might even be willing to say, okay, you have a point, but you're you're still not gonna accept it. And that's not with everybody. You have to kind of discern these things. But you know it's the convincing someone against their will. they're not They might give it lip service, but nothing changes about their they're thinking. Nothing changes about what they're doing. and And so why am I spinning my wheels to engage in that? And I'm just kind of over it. you know So. Yeah, I like that. I agree with this. I have a question for you. So in your opinion, if um trying to convince somebody to see something something from your point of view, or trying to get them to to change their mind is is generally fruitless, is there a different philosophy that you kind of follow or a different kind of strategy that you think is is better?
00:10:00
Speaker
Yeah, and I might upset some people. So I'm very Socratic. so like And and i I do this naturally. This wasn't like I didn't pick up the Socratic method, Socratic questioning and be like, oh, that's a good tool. I realized when I learned that kind of in in therapy, you know they they teach you some of these things. Not very well. Grad school's largely a waste of time. But you need it to get licensed. Right. um But when I when I learned that strategy, it's like, oh, that's something that I do instinctively anyway that I do naturally. I just go in and like.
00:10:32
Speaker
act like, first of all, maybe I have a traumatic brain injury and I don't really understand what you're saying and so please explain it to me like I'm five. um But I ask these sort of questions and and I go in with what I call rabid curiosity, which is, tell me how that works, explain that to me. And most of the time what ends up happening is somebody hasn't really thought this idea all the way through. and And they wind up at some dead end. And you didn't do that, right? Like, I'm just asking you the questions. Your efforts to answer it and to make it make sense kind of exposes that it doesn't. And at that point, you're going to do the work. Like, I don't have to convince you of anything at that point. You just walked into it yourself and say, oh, well, I guess it's not quite like that. But then the idea germinates with you, right? Like the the idea for change, the the
00:11:22
Speaker
the new kind of concept you have to sort of create or or reach for or whatever. And if you're, you know, humble, maybe I can offer, well, what if it's more like this or what if it's more like that at that point? But you kind of have to be at that point where we're you're sort of out of options. Um, you've talked yourself into a corner and all I've done is asked you again and again and again. Well, how does that work with this? And how does that relate to this? And I don't go in with an agenda. Um, I really just go in to understand it and kind of map it out for myself, but it's that sort of like 3d mapping, that collaborative mapping that exposes people's half baked ideas and, you know, like, like.
00:12:06
Speaker
the the flaws in kind of what they've committed to. And you find out a lot of us don't actually have like really strong belief systems, which is kind of kind of funny. um We just sort of a ah adapt what works in the moment and that's good enough until it's not. And then we have to recreate something. But a lot of people really don't have kind of hard and fast, solid belief systems that stand up to to a whole lot of scrutiny, which is really interesting.
00:12:32
Speaker
I've noticed that too with others and in myself like I have some hard and fast beliefs on some things But on other things that I thought I might have I've noticed they're a little shakier um andt there this are the I don't think necessarily a bad thing. I think it comes from Recognizing that you don't know everything, you know, you know, right you're not an expert on every topic Well, ideally, that's that's the case, right? Like, I don't have a hard idea about this because I've never really thought about that. And if you give me time to think like, ideally, that's great. You encounter an awful lot of people ah who, even if they've never thought about it before, just in their effort to not be wrong, to not get dunked on, to not whatever, will just start making crap up.
Critique of Modern Therapy Practices
00:13:09
Speaker
and act as though they've always had that belief. And it works like this. and And that's that's where like I don't like arguing with people, but that's where it gets kind of fun, especially on Twitter, because then you can start to eat and dunk in and like, check out this you know, whatever. And that's I have to repent and do better than that, because that's not that's not good. um But, you know, old habits die hard. So try not to dunk on anybody too hard anymore.
00:13:39
Speaker
Yeah. um in in ah You mentioned that you know using that method of trying to convince people doesn't work in therapy. Is that what you just described? Is that kind of typically how you do things in therapy? I'm just curious. It's just kind of as as as a sidebar because while I'm not a therapist, you know so we still do run into interpersonal issues where people will tell you stuff or this, that, and the other. And and kind of knowing some good strategies on how to deal with that might I think could be helpful. Yeah, I mean, it kind of depends on on what the situation is, right? Like when when people come in, but nine times out of 10, it's not what you're going through that's the problem, it's what you're telling yourself about what you're going through that's the problem. And so so there's some inner monologue, there's some inner dialogue happening.
00:14:19
Speaker
that, uh, you know, cause you and I can, we can, we can both be in the same car driving down the highway, have a wreck. And I can come out of that feeling super grateful that I'm not dead. And you can come out of it feeling like your whole life is ruined because of what happened. Right. But we went through the exact same thing. What's the difference? The difference is I have a different story to tell myself. I'm i'm I have a different narrative that I'm able to draw on. and And so most of the time when we're doing therapy, it's really just about the story that we're telling yourself. And and so I ah explore the story and I ask these questions. I'm like, well, what does that mean? And where does that come from? and
00:14:54
Speaker
You know, it's it's um a lot of us are future oriented and some of us are only kind of moderately future oriented. Some of us are way down the line kind of future oriented. And so a lot of what disturbs us is what we anticipate will happen. What are the second, third, fourth order consequences of of this thing that just took place? and And so I just I spent a lot of time just kind of exploring that and saying, how likely is that to happen? Actually, you know, let's kind of walk that back a little bit. and see where we're actually at. So no I don't know if it's effective. I mean, people come back. So maybe it is. But like, you know, I hope it is. I've been doing it a while. i've Been screwing up a lot of people if it's not so. But I'm ah i'm also kind of old school in in that sense. Like in the in the therapy world, I'm ah i'm a straight up heretic. ah Like I'm an apostate because I I don't subscribe to affirmation therapies. I don't subscribe to any of that. Like
00:15:51
Speaker
And, and when I say old school, when you look at like, and I know this isn't about therapy, but whatever I'm going here, cause it's something I like to talk about. Yeah. go from When you, when you look at like the old kind of approaches, cognitive behavioral therapy, rational emotive behavioral therapy, you know, Gestalt was Fritz pearls and all this, like. All of it is kind of looking for the same thing. and it's It's this question of like what's disturbing you. It's not your circumstances. and It and it kind of doesn't really care about the circumstances. In fact, in REBT therapy, rational emotive behavioral therapy, um it doesn't it doesn't care at all about your history. It doesn't care at all about how you got here. It only cares about the story you're telling yourself.
00:16:30
Speaker
and You contrast that today where almost all therapy is kind of directed outward, that you are kind of a victim, that you are you know victims of of of circumstances or of oppression or whatever. It's been completely overrun by sort of Marxist and conflict theories. and that that everything that disturbs you, you are good and perfect no matter what. It's your surroundings. It's the people in your life. It's a very isolating kind of approach because it's you need to go live your truth and be around people who respect that. It's all about changing your environment. Whereas the old school approaches, which I thought were way more effective, are about changing what you can change about the way you're thinking about this, right? Changing where you can change and not alienating everybody you know out of your life because they're not observing your
00:17:16
Speaker
boundaries or whatever, like it's okay to have some boundaries, but like if everybody in your life is toxic, it's your therapist who's toxic. so I was going to ask you about that term boundaries because it gets thrown around so much. I was just wondering, you know, what, what's the deal with that? Well, yeah, it's, it's, it's just that it's a buzzword. Most of what What you hire a therapist for today is to give you a vocabulary to to alienate everybody, right? like and Like narcissism and boundaries and toxic and all these other things. like most Most therapists are just equipping their clients with vocabulary to to be prickly you know and to keep people kind of at a distance.
00:18:00
Speaker
it's It's really silly. Now, like I said, boundaries are good. um In fact, there's there's but another another phrase that I really like, which is, ah benevolence without boundaries is always self-serving. And that's another one that I use when we have like codependency and all these other things where people just give and give and give and give. um So boundaries are good. you You can say no to people. you can express kind of your wishes and wants and desires and in things, right? Where it gets into trouble is I have boundaries about what you what what you can do. What we have today is you're encouraged to set boundaries against people who make you feel something, right? You make me uncomfortable and so I'm gonna set a boundary here rather than addressing what it is that makes you uncomfortable. Nobody makes you anything. The only thing we can give each other is information.
00:18:51
Speaker
and So, so if I come on here and I'm like, you're a dork and I don't like you and I think you're stupid and your breath stinks, right? Like, okay. Now that might cause me to feel something, but it's not my words that do that. I'm giving you information, but then you're processing that information and causing yourself to feel something. If we could actually make people feel things, we'd have figured out a long time ago, how to make everybody feel happy, right? Like all the time, or what I would do is make everybody feel really generous so that they just wanted to hand me money. If I could do that.
00:19:21
Speaker
you're You're feeling very generous towards me. giving Give me some. Absolutely. No problem. We can't do that. we We just exchange information. That's all it is. We're just bumping into each other with information. But what I do with that information is what disturbs me. And and a good therapist is going to examine that and say, what is your process? Why are you disturbed by everybody around you? Why why do your conservative parents piss you off so much right and and make you so miserable? You're not going to be able to change them. But modern therapy says, yeah. And if you can't, you cut them out of your life. You draw boundaries. You keep them at a distance. You you you alienate them from you because you can't have that in your life. We've been learning how to deal with each other for centuries, right? Like eons. We've dealt with people that we don't like for the sake of of whatever, you know, going on to getting along and and for the sake of society. so
00:20:17
Speaker
It's only a recent thing that that's totally intolerable. So anyway, I can, I can rant on this stuff all day. Maybe I should start a podcast where I just complain about that. Well, I feel like going in too many, really well too many of the questions and Andrew, what what do you got for, for Adam? Well, uh, you're coming back to this proverb. Um, yeah, I can see, you know, it being old, I can see maybe there's, there's some humor in here with, you know, of the paradox of being convinced against your will, right? like yeah um But I do, the first thing I was thinking about with this one is,
00:20:54
Speaker
um you know, there's something to the idea of if you convince someone or at least, you know, pressure them to do things, um you know, to say certain things to do certain things, people will adopt those, you know, that kind of the Stockholm syndrome type thing, right. um So I guess I kind of wanted to hear your thoughts on on that aspect of thing, like that repetition of action or or words that actually does convince people does change people and and their opinion.
Belief Change & Repetition
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's ah it's an interesting question. like um because can Can you drill it? right Can you drill a ah different perspective? and yeah i don't I don't know how effective that actually would be unless you you already had kind of some fertile ground for that. you know so i I guess maybe I have to qualify that a little bit. like um i'm I'm thinking of like affirmations in therapy, for example, right? So these affirmations, you wake up every morning, you look in the mirror and you say, you're great, everybody loves you, you're gonna have a good day. and And for a moment, that kind of works, but but you know emotions are deeper than that and and they're kind of uncontrolled and they just sort of exist independent of you a lot of the time, right? and And you are designed to experience a multitude of emotions throughout the day. So you wake up every day and you tell yourself you're gonna have a good day,
00:22:16
Speaker
Chances are good that won't actually happen all day, that you're going to still experience all these things. um and And so I guess when it comes to like, sort of going back to this idea, um I'm trying not to like quote Jordan Peterson or or pull on like some of the stuff that he has said before, cause because I don't know the exact quote. These are just like ideas I would butcher, any sort of a quote. but Um, he talks a lot about, uh, who is it? Like the Polish police officers that, uh, end up committing war crimes. I don't know if you guys are familiar with this or not. Um, and, and they, they do kind of adopt it, but I don't.
00:22:56
Speaker
I think that's probably more of a spiritual sickness than anything else, right? So like i can I can put myself into situations where my my conscience and and sort of my my values become compromised just by virtue of exposure, um where i just I start to behave in a way that I that i normally wouldn't do. But I don't know, on the other hand, you have Viktor Frankl who everything was designed to break him, right? And he realized that this is the one thing they can't take from me is my sense of humor and my my outlook and and my love for for life and for mankind.
00:23:34
Speaker
um So yeah, that's a long way to say yeah it's a good question. maybe Maybe it works that way. I don't know. I don't know. um i think I think we are way more independent than that. And this is something I do kind of get frustrated with when I see people, like when when people try to reduce human interaction to a formula, it it drives me insane. because we're we're way more complex than that ah each that. No two individuals are the same. No two kids even grow up in the same home, right? Because everything's different. Everything's in flux. ah The dynamics are just too varied to reduce people to to simple kind of A, B, C, D things. um Even in like total regimes, like you know you look at North Korea,
00:24:17
Speaker
where you are drilled, like the the state runs and operates every facet of your life, and they're smuggling K-pop. right like and so There's something about the human spirit that I think resists that kind of programming one way or the other. and and I don't know what it is, i mean but i I think it exists on kind of a fundamental level. and i I think there are some people who are susceptible to it that go along with it. You know, and and we'll go along kind of with whatever else is going on, but I think on the whole, ah the majority of us are are probably a little more independent than that. Being online for any length of time, you would think that's the opposite, that we're actually the minority, that that everybody is kind of going along with it. but
00:25:00
Speaker
Um, yeah, I don't know. So like when that, that pressure, when that pressure is lit up, people tend to snap back to, um, previous site, you know? Yeah. Well, I guess, I guess so. So you have like, you have stasis, right? Which is like kind of the the place that we function comfortably and stasis can change for all of us. Um, you, you, you apply enough pressure for a while, you create a new stasis, you create a new normal, um, and, and people sort of adapt and then they do have a hard time kind of going back, right? Like, So, you know, COVID permanently changed some things for for a lot of us. It changed the status quo and and the way that we operate and our our comfort with Zoom, our comfort with technology is kind of a good example of that. Whereas before, when when I was doing therapy, nobody would do Zoom. Everybody thought it was like, ah that that's so weird to do therapy online. And then suddenly everybody needed therapy because we're all freaking out about the super bug. And the only way you could get it was online. And now nobody wants to meet in person. Still, they can, but they would prefer to do it on Zoom. So we've we've sort of created
00:25:59
Speaker
you know a new stasis in that sense. um But again, applying it to like ideas and and thoughts and stuff. Yeah, don't I don't know. The other, kind of as I'm thinking about it though, when you when you start looking at pre-conventional and post-conventional morality, um we do sort of reconcile right and wrong by the group, by the the pressure that sort of exists around us, right by the institutions and what they say. and Um, but that, that's again, kind of a, that's an immature sort of a function and conventional morality is immature. We're supposed to get to post-conventional morality where we do things that are good for us because they're good for us, not because somebody tells us to do them. So anyway, I don't i don't know if I took us off course or not. It's, it's late here and I, you know, a long day, but.
00:26:51
Speaker
No, I thought that was great. I appreciated ah the comment about how no two kids are even raised in the same household. That is so true. um I have six kids. You're one of the few guests we've had on that that beats me in the in how many kids you have. So congratulations for that. You're the winner. um but But it's so true. We did a win everywhere we go. Biggest crowd anybody's seen. There you go. We ah did a one of my favorite proverbs a while back. You can never go home. And it kind of has that same principle that like um even if you could go back to the home that you were raised, it's different. The people are different. People are older. You know, things have changed. It's like kind of similar to the you can't step in the same river twice. Right. It's like things are constantly in flux. And that's no more true than with human beings, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. And and that's, you know, why the return meme is, you know,
00:27:41
Speaker
double-edged sword for me too. It's like, yeah, that'd be great. But there why would you go back? You have technology now. like Why would you go back to farming dirt? You have equipment. like you can You can return to the to the values, but yeah, yeah yeah everything everything changes. Everything is in motion. Nothing's nothing's ever the same. Yeah, we were just had a, you know, everything's obviously everything's constantly in flux when you have kids, what always is, but especially when you have kids and they're getting older, my oldest just finally just got her first phone. So that's been ah a new adventure, you know, yeah but you know, the the boundaries you set on that and these types of things. And I'm talking to Andrew, but I wasn't scared to give my daughter access to the world. I was scared to give my the world access to my daughter. So I was like, yeah you know, wanted to make sure I had some boundaries and some some protections there and stuff. But it's been it's been
00:28:30
Speaker
tough. And now, you know, watching her struggle with group texts and did someone say something about me or this, that and the other. and And I mean, as an adult, I felt that in group chats, you know, someone said something and you're you're checking back to see if someone people laughed at your little joke or they didn't. And then you feel like stupid because, yeah you know, you know, all your comments.
Parenting in the Digital Age
00:28:49
Speaker
Oh, thank you for that. But she's young, you know, and she's just learning this for the first time. And it's it's, a you know, it's tougher for her. but But like you said, there's no way to to to to avoid it you can't go back to the 1950s before technology existed you have to the only way you know around it or what's what's the saying whatever the only way past it is through it or something like that yeah the only way out is through yeah yeah there you go yeah i i agree and it is really about like can you train them to to deal with it right and to handle it and yeah the uh the amish have an interesting approach to this which actually like
00:29:28
Speaker
is a pretty good sifter with Room Springer, right? so So a kid turns 16 in the Amish community, and they're encouraged to go out into the world, have fun for a year, and they're so unprepared for it, so completely isolated from it, and they're just like slingshotted into this other world. And it either terrifies the crap out of them, and they come back never to leave again, or they get kind of lost and caught up with it, right? Because they're totally unprepared for it. But but they they treat it as kind of this sifting sort of a thing. And if if you don't come back, you're you're shunned and whatever in there. Now there's a whole community of shunned irish or Amish kids, ah which is kind of an interesting you know ah outgrowth of that that process. But um yeah, it's.
00:30:14
Speaker
If they're unprepared for it, one of two things happen. They get swallowed by it or they get terrified and retreat from it. And I neith neither of those is good. Right. And so our our approach, like with technology and stuff has just been like. It is slowly introducing them to it, facets of it, having conversations about it, explaining to the kids how the algorithms work so you know so that they understand that like this is how your behavior is being monitored online and this is kind of what you can expect. And if you linger a little too long on this video, you can expect more videos like that to show up in your feed and just kind of equipping them to deal with that.
00:30:52
Speaker
You know, as as far as like girls go though, I wouldn't, I wouldn't give, my daughters are not getting smart phones until they're like 18. You know, like, okay. But because i yeah and my my my daughter, my oldest daughter, she's going into sixth grade and and like, I've seen some of the group chats and they, they found a way through like Google, like a Google document that they all like. Oh, docking. Yep. They dock with each other. That's so weird. Yeah. But even that has caused problems the way they talk to each other and whatever. And there's like hard data. it's like that that kind of interaction the social media interaction is bad for girls like it it creates anxiety and depression and whatever and and it's not just correlation it's straight up causation that like that kind of exposure creates these kinds of outcomes and it and it's not even like a question it's like a straight one one point oh kind of correlation like it's it's significant but
00:31:46
Speaker
um Again, this isn't a therapy show. A man convinced against his will is of the same. This is part of the course. We go all over the place at the end. That's great. Those are the best conversations. We don't want to make it artificial. Yeah, no, and and this is probably how my therapy sessions go. Not me talking so much, but just kind of everywhere, right? Like where and wherever it sort of leads, because again, like, and and this was, you know, kind of back to the to the point that a man convinces against his, I figured out pretty early that like you had to say it, like you, the client, you, the person had to say it for it to be true.
00:32:24
Speaker
And we we could lead you right up to like a like a revelation, right? Like a realization. And but unless it came out of your mouth, it it wasn't true. um And in rational and motor behavioral therapy, I really like this because I deal with different kinds of people, you have people that are sort of overly emotional. But then I deal with a ton of like really rational people, really kind of cerebral thinkers who think they keep a emotion completely under wraps and whatever. And and sort of I'm stoic and whatever crap. Everybody's emotional first, like. the post-rationalization is what happens afterwards. But um even that, when you're doing rational emotive behavioral therapy, you're using logic and and you're logically sort of backing up to the assumption. That's where really where the Socratic method comes into play. But you're you're backing up to this this assumption that you're making that is usually false.
00:33:14
Speaker
I can't tell you it's false. I can't get you there and be like, that's a stupid belief that you have, right? I have to walk you back into it and you realize it's false. And then the discomfort of that realization then does the work. You'll walk out of my office and for the next week you will wrestle with having arrived at ah at an incorrect conclusion and it will eat you up and you'll feel embarrassed and you'll work to change it. You'll adopt a new thought. that then kind of germinates its way out. I did a podcast, it was a movie podcast with a couple of therapists, friends of mine, they're therapists that talk about movies and then sort of equate it to therapy and stuff. And I jumped on an episode for them talking about the film Inception. And that's kind of the idea here, right? Is that you can't just convince somebody of something, you have to kind of go in
00:34:01
Speaker
and finesse it and plant it in such a way that it's their idea and that they take it kind of out into the world and and make it their own. And that sounds super manipulative as I say that kind of out loud like that, but that's really what you're doing. And and and it's ah it's a true principle. um you you You can't just give it to somebody. It's got to come out of their mouth. It becomes real. They speak it. They feel it. They they now have to address it. I didn't give it to them. Yeah. Yeah, it makes that makes sense. um Do you have to sit there and like act surprised when they go, actually, maybe that is a stupid idea. You're like, oh, I never thought about it. Maybe you're right. Maybe it was a dumb ah idea all along. I mean, kind of sometimes I'm like sort of waiting for it and like, OK, yes, you got it. Yes.
00:34:46
Speaker
Well, you said it, not me. it's it's it's It's real similar to sales, man, sometimes when they're just like hung up on some product or something that's terrible. And you're like, OK, talk to me about what you like about it. And you're trying to like get them to say, it doesn't do this thing that you would really need it to do. But you're just used to having a crappy product. And you're just not having change. And once you can get them to realize, oh, I've been living with something that sucks, maybe I should think about upgrading. So mine's not as good. And sales is interesting, because it because it does have kind of a bad rap, right? like it's like yeah ah You know, I've bought some crap from really good salesmen who are like, every time the salesman comes to the door, my wife kind of holds her breath because we we had this one kid selling like a bottle of like Fabuloso or something. It was like something, you know, oven cleaner. Let me demonstrate. He's just so charismatic. I bought a $40 bottle of freaking Dawn dish soap. like yeah you know ah But man, he could, he could.
00:35:38
Speaker
He could sell, so it was it was was good. I didn't mind giving him the money. He had a good hustle. but But it kind of comes with this the same rap. we We get people that knock on our door all the time selling us pest control, selling us solar, selling us a new roof, selling us whatever. And you brace yourself because it's like we're going to get some high pressure I'm going to be convinced against my will that I need yeah Anderson windows for every window in my house, right? Like, yeah, these guys show up and and you brace yourself for it. But yeah, like a a good salesman. takes an entirely different approach. Just wants to have a conversation with you and and figure out, do we have a product that works for for what you need? If you're willing to give them the time of day, we we treat them very differently here. My wife, like, because we get them all the time. they're They're always here, especially in the summer. Summer sales bros are the worst. Like, go back to where you came from. And and they're running around the neighborhood on like segues now. They're like not even walking. It's like, you're too lazy to even like hoof the neighborhood, dude.
00:36:38
Speaker
Um, mother one guy was like, Hey, we're doing work for your neighbor. And she's like, just, just give me the card. Well, don't you want to know when, when I need a roofer, I'm going to pull from this stack of cards. And if yours is on top, that's who I'm calling. That's that's our, that's the way we're dealing with salespeople. Now is just put your card on top. And when I need it, I'll pull it. That's such a dis is such a difficult way to sell. I've done this, the door to door. I've done every kind of sale sales there is. And. Everybody hates that. you know it's it's ah The type of sale you want to get into is you kind of work your way up the chain is is like a consultative sale where they invite you in to hear what your solution is. They have a problem. They know they have a problem. You're selling it to like a business and they're like, tell me what you have and let me compare it with the competition. And then you have a chance to actually have a conversation with people, which is way better if you can get that, which which is, I'm lucky enough to have ah have a role like that now. And it's it's actually really rewarding, I think.
00:37:34
Speaker
Well, and and it's so that's similar to what I do, which is kind of funny. Like I got into therapy, um, because people will randomly call me with, and and this used to frustrate the heck out of me growing up. People would call me, friends would call me with their problems and stuff. And I i would dispense advice and then they wouldn't take it. And then they'd go on and make stupid
Therapy vs. Advice-Giving
00:37:51
Speaker
decisions again. And there was one night, it was like 2 AM and I had a friend drunk call me in the middle of the night and his life has fallen apart and all this other stuff. And I'm listening and I'm talking to him. and Hang up the phone and my wife's like, you should be getting paid for this. and And so now it's it's a very kind of a similar situation. People hire me to come in and kind of provide this analysis, right? Like for you. Whereas the rest of us before this, like we just dispense advice. We just tell people, this is what you should do, right? You know what you should do is you should.
00:38:21
Speaker
You know, and, and people reject it. They don't want to hear it. They're not asking for it. And I guess it's kind of the equivalent of door to door sales, right? Or it's like, yeah, i'm I'm here to tell you what you need, whether you need it or not. And whether you're ready to hear it or not, and whether you're, you're looking for it or not. And you're like, all I did was post a picture on line, man. And you're telling me that I'm a fatty and then he'd lose a bunch of weight. Like, I don't, I don't want to hear that right now. Like, yeah you know what I mean? Like. But yeah, it's it's a similar thing where people are now a little more open to it, but you still have to finesse it. like Even though somebody's paying me coming in and saying, hey, I want to hear what you have to say about this, they don't actually. like
00:39:02
Speaker
because it's it's uncomfortable for a lot of people, and who are you? right like They don't and don't trust you, and so people, with therapists shop all the time. But if you can help them arrive at their own conclusions, then then you've done them a huge favor, and yeah people people can then make changes to themselves, which is what you want people to be able to do. like Intrinsic motivation is so much better than than the pressures that we put on people. Yeah, it's it's ah it's difficult to have friends that are having trouble and and maybe you know what their solution is, or or at least you think you do. Maybe you've even been in that same situation and having them resist it, it can be frustrating. But I mean, yeah, and most most of us aren't that good at it. Most of us aren't that good at like helping them find it themselves. you know We're stumbling through and we're like, what is wrong with this guy? Why isn't he doing this?
Validation & Belief Reinforcement
00:39:51
Speaker
but But yeah, I mean, it's that's super important to remember that you convince them against their will. They're not going to they're not going to do it. You can logic them to death. ah You know, um you mentioned that you don't like these academic kind of logic debates. I don't like them either. I think they're ridiculous. But I didn't always used to be that way. Like in college, I took some philosophy classes and I used to do it. It's kind of fun to do this. And then, of sure and it can be fun as an academic exercise. But then after, you know, you grow up a little bit, I'm like, this is getting this gets people nowhere. I mean, other than you want to debate and you want some points or something, and then congratulations for you, you had the stronger argument, the people on the losing side, they didn't come away any different.
00:40:25
Speaker
Right, yeah, like like who has changed? you know Nobody has. And you see you see these like Ben Shapiro eviscerates college student, right? Yeah. And like it's fun to watch because like you're not the one getting ripped, but that person doesn't go out and then not fly a Palestine flag, right? That person goes out and does exactly what they've been doing. And they just sort of reject the fact that they just got throttled on national television. like it it It doesn't work. you know And I think it might even be worse in those cases because now they have this negative emotion attached to it that I'm not gonna go backtrack and look like a fool after this guy like trashed me online and humiliated me. I'm gonna dig in and find some better arguments to back it up from somebody else.
00:41:10
Speaker
Yeah, they get entrenched or they dismiss you, right? Like they they shoot the messenger. They, you well, you're just a blah, blah, blah, blah. why Yeah. And they they dig in their heels and make you out to be even more of an enemy. And then anybody who agrees with you too is, is their team versus my team. And yeah, I think you're absolutely right in that regard. Like you you make an enemy of someone. Rather than, you know, I think, you know, I, I don't consider myself neutral, but in like, in a discussion, I want to be neutral. I want you to be able to just kind of figure it out as we're having a discussion, you know.
00:41:44
Speaker
whether that's online adversarial or not. I get people that come at me all the time for stupid things. and And the ones that I think there's an inkling of a possibility that they could arrive at their own conclusions all kind of engage. And I do it in good faith. It's not for show. it's it It really is to like, can I lead you, the anonymous person on the other end of this discussion? to to a little different conclusion than you came in with, are you open to that? And sometimes you get people who are and and who can kind of kind of work through it. It's it's rare, but it's super fun when when you find them. But most of the time, yeah, it's people who just want to just want to fight, just want to dunk, just want to.
00:42:24
Speaker
you know and And sometimes we go we go looking for the justification of how we already feel. right And so if I already feel like the world is full of a bunch of A-holes, I'm going to go find a bunch of A-holes and say, see, the world's full of them. Or if I already feel like you know conservative Twitter is full of a bunch of whatever, I'm going to go find the obnoxious ones and prove it. Um, if, if I already feel like a worthless human being, I'm going to go put myself in situations where I'm treated like a worthless human being so that my feelings have justification because otherwise I'm, I'm left with kind of that, uh, that, that, uh, what's the word I'm looking for.
00:43:01
Speaker
not disharmony, but yeah that that dissidence of, I'm feeling a certain way, but there's no reason for me to be feeling this way, right? That that that causes a lot of people to do a lot of stupid things because there's there's no reason, you know feelings just kind of bubble up for whatever reason, but we go out and then create the reason so that we have the excuse and the thing to fight for, you know or the thing to fight against. I was kind of an angry kid growing up and so the punk rock thing made total sense to me to wear a mohawk and draw kind of negative attention to myself so that I could then be pissed off at everybody for judging. like I invited the judgment. I'm walking around with a freaking green mohawk. like
00:43:37
Speaker
i'm I'm inviting it, but then when I sense it, it's like, oh, everybody's so judgmental, stupid, blah, blah, blah, dumb rednecks, right? you know it's It's really no different. and And half of the people that you encounter, more than half of the people you encounter online, that's that's what they're doing. And all of us kind of engage in this to some degree or another. And if you meet that you know and take it at face value and kind of meet them where they're at, then you're just feeding into that. You're just reinforcing the the thing that they're they're hoping to be reinforced anyway.
00:44:09
Speaker
Well, um yeah, man, this has been super interesting. We're coming up on usually about the time. I wanted to kick it back to Andrew. Did you have any last questions for for Adam or any last thoughts?
Compelled Speech & Compliance
00:44:18
Speaker
One last one. wo We can go quick with it, but what we typically at the end of our show, we'll take a look um based on the just put the poem there that this podcast is inspired by. the the gods of the marketplace, right? So what is like current society, how do they value this this proverb? And ah I'm curious with this one, what you think the the mainstream thoughts on on this concept are, you know, do people value the idea that a man convinced against as well as of the same opinion still?
00:44:48
Speaker
Yeah, i don't I don't think they value it at all. And I think that's evidence in in in a lot of what we're seeing as far as compelled speech goes, right? Like that you will refer to people in a certain way that you will, that that if we repeat this often enough, then it becomes true. And and in a lot of things, and I'm certainly coming this at this from a a conservative slant and being very much against compelled speech and being told that I have to think and believe a certain way about certain things. um So yeah, I think on the whole, absolutely not. I think I don't think we care. You're going to conform, right? And you're going to give it the lip service. And maybe they believe that if you say it, you'll eventually believe it. I don't, I don't think that's what it's about. I think people, I think it's about compliance. I think it's about, uh, you know, behavior and and behaving yourself and falling in line more than anything. But yeah, I don't, I don't think anybody, well, anybody, generally speaking, I don't think we respect this at all because we're,
00:45:45
Speaker
Constantly insisting that each other think certain ways and believe certain things and that really falls on both sides like like people on on kind of my side of a political spectrum and and others and I'm speaking politically mostly but um I think we're all generally guilty of it that We believe if we can just make you acknowledge it then and that's it right and you're stuck and and then we were in charge hmm Well, yeah, thanks so much. We appreciate you coming on. And this is a really good one. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. So I think that's a good one to remember. um Before we go, anything you want to ah any projects you're working on want to mention your your podcast or anything else?
Creative Hobbies & Cultural Challenges
00:46:29
Speaker
Um, no, I mean, i I do a lot of stuff, man. I dabble in all kinds. I got lots of weird hobbies. And so I don't I don't know when it's like appropriate to share some of those are not like
00:46:40
Speaker
Well, you do ah you do fragrances, right? I do. And I'm really excited about those. And like it's ah but it's such a weird thing because it's like all of my hobbies and we're up against time. But like they they they carry with them all kinds of like cultural baggage. And what I mean by that is like the people the other kinds of people that are into that. aren't necessarily people that are like, I spend a bunch of like, I want to hang out. So I do music and stuff, too. And like musicians are obnoxious for the most part. Like, yeah, they're they're a bunch of self centered, you know, like, I just I don't I don't love it. And so I feel a little kind of.
00:47:19
Speaker
I don't know, I can't help what I like. It's a lot of fun. I enjoy crafting. I enjoy the craft of things. um and And I'm very much sensory driven, right? So like, does it look cool? Does it sound cool? Does it smell cool? Like, whatever. Like, does it taste good? These are the things that I'm kind of interested in. I'm interested in, not not the science of it. not You know, but but the craftsmen ship behind it. And so like with with fragrances and stuff, it started out just kind of like literally how hard can that be? Right. Like to make a fragrance. How hard can that be? Turns out it's pretty difficult. I've been doing it for like five years and I'm just now getting to where it's like, OK, these are actually like passable sense, you know, things that people will wear that don't just smell like dirt and poop, you know, like. But yeah, I'm really excited about that. I've spent a lot of kind of time and effort in into developing those and
00:48:09
Speaker
have a couple of projects right now that if they pan out will be great. Cause I'll get like name credit and and actually get paid for, for some of this and doing some work for, for like other brands and stuff, which is really, really cool. Cause if that takes off, then that's, that's a lot of fun. But, uh, yeah, so, so I do that, I do music and it's like, again, it's like electronic music, like drum machines and synthesizers and like. It's all drug culture stuff, which which sucks because I don't want to be around that, but like, man, it's so much fun to like figure out how they work and, you know, make cool beats. So yeah, stuff like that.
00:48:44
Speaker
Okay, well, if nothing else that you guys can follow Adam on, on X, J.A. Eberts at J.A. Eberts, and maybe you can hear about his fragrances and his music and all that other stuff. He can offend you by his opinions. you That will happen. How about change your mind? So don't tell on yourself in my mentions. Like, so when I, when I... Share something that that has nothing to do with you. Don't come and make it about you, because it's not about you. By the time I i subtweet, yeah it's it's already like it's it's almost never about one particular person. it's It's a pattern I've seen. Several different people have expressed a similar idea. I distill the idea, and then I subtweet against the idea. It's not against the person. But then the people who are offended by that, the people who like, oh, I'm the hit dog but that yelps, right? like
00:49:30
Speaker
Uh, they, they come in and they say, what are you talking about me? It's like, yeah, I didn't know I was, but now everybody knows that that everybody knows that about you. So if you follow me, you will be offended. Like keep to yourself. It's not about you. and Like you're probably, you're a better man than I, cause I do sub tweets people sometimes with a specific person's mind that was bothering me. And then I hope they see it. And then sometimes I'll offend other friends that fall in there. I'm like, Oh, I didn't mean to do that. You know, I was after this other guy. you talk about be like that stuff but yeah You got to air my dirty laundry. and yeah most so Now there have been a couple of times where I have kind of singled out somebody, but that wasn't like a sub tweet. I just kind of like went straight at them and and I've offended people and you know i've i've I'm not going to do that. I don't do that. Most of the time it is just an attitude that I see expressed and and I just
00:50:15
Speaker
counter-signal it and and people, you know, the, the hit bird flutters, right? Like that's another great saying. If you want to have me back, we can talk about that one. Hey, we could. Yeah. All right. Well, hey, thanks so much for, uh, for joining Adam. Appreciate it. And and thanks Andrew. It's been, it's been fun. I appreciate it. Yeah. And we'll, yeah. And, uh, so everyone check them out and thanks so much for listening. We'll see you guys all next week. All right. We'll see you. There are only four things certain since social progress began. that the dog returns to his vomit, and the sow returns to her mind, and the bird pulls Bandit's finger, goes wobbling back to the fire. And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins, when all men are paid for existing, and no man must pay for his sin. As surely as water will wet us, as surely as fire will burn, the gods of the coffee-warming idioms,
00:51:16
Speaker
Terrible.