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Fluid Sex Parties with Daniel Saynt
5.4k Plays2 years ago
This week we’re talking bisexual play parties with the founder and “Chief Conspirator” of the New Society For Wellness (aka NSFW), Daniel Saynt! We chatted about Daniel’s early awareness of his bisexuality, keeping it hidden throughout his conservative religious upbringing, and how entering the world of fashion both exposed him to more sexual fluidity but also convinced him that more openness and transparency was needed. We then focused on the club he founded, NSFW, and how & why it’s specifically geared toward the bisexual community. We discussed play party etiquette and enthusiastic consent, how to overcome anxiety about attending sex parties (and performance anxiety during them), the differences between play parties and kink parties, how norms in sexual spaces can change depending on the gender identity of those involved, why bisexual men seem to love NSFW’s “Frat”-themed party so much (which includes consensual “forced” hazing and bi play), and how queer parties can set themselves apart from “swinger” events. We also talked about weed! Don’t miss it.
The New Society For Wellness: https://www.ns-fw.com/
Follow Daniel on IG: https://www.instagram.com/danielsaynt/
Follow Daniel on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danielsaynt
Follow NS-FW on IG: https://www.instagram.com/wearethensfw/
Follow NS-FW on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wearensfw
Buy the FirmTech Tech Ring or Performance Ring: https://myfirmtech.com/collections/firmtech
Two Bi Guys is produced and edited by Rob Cohen
Created by Rob Cohen and Alex Boyd
Logo art by Kaitlin Weinman
Music by Ross Mintzer
We are supported by The Gotham
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We're going on a Bi+ trip to Maine in June 2023! Join the email list to get all the info: https://my.trovatrip.com/public/l/survey/rob-cohen
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Transcript
Introduction to Daniel Saint and his work
00:00:00
Speaker
🎵
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Two Bye Guys. I've got another great interview today. Someone I've been waiting to interview for a long time on this podcast. He was sort of there from the inception, from the beginning, in a way. My guest today is a bisexual influencer and entrepreneur whose career has spanned multiple industries, including sex and cannabis, two of my favorite things, and also a great combination.
00:00:37
Speaker
He's been a marketing director. He founded Fashion Indy as well as Socialite, a talent management company for influencers.
Founding of NSFW and its mission
00:00:44
Speaker
And he is the founder and chief conspirator of the New Society for Wellness, or NSFW, a sex-positive play party and club in New York City with a focus on bisexuality and sexual fluidity.
00:00:59
Speaker
And he appeared in the same episode of Slut Ever on Bisexual Men that Alex and I were in that inspired this podcast. That's how I heard about NSFW. I've been wanting to have him on ever since. It's finally happening. Please welcome Daniel Saint to Two By Guys. Thank you. That was a beautiful introduction. Thank you so much for having me on, Robert.
00:01:19
Speaker
You're welcome. I remember seeing that episode, like I didn't know who else was going to be in it when we filmed it. And then just thinking, I identified with what you said so much, even though we each only got like a minute or two. And I really liked the clips from NSFW and that's why I started coming. Yeah, that was like almost five years ago now. It's been like insane, the journey of like building this up and doing all this stuff. But yeah, it was like super early in our inception.
00:01:49
Speaker
Yeah, I know. The clips from that definitely look different from what I've seen lately when I've been there. I can't believe that was so long ago. It's crazy. Yeah. Look how far we've both come. Seriously.
00:02:04
Speaker
Cool. Okay. So I really want to talk a lot about NSFW, but we always start with you and your journey. And I know yours is quite interesting and complicated. So first, just tell us what pronouns do you use and how do you identify, and then we'll kind of get into how you got there.
00:02:23
Speaker
Pronouns down for all of them for the most part. I think it depends on the time of day for me sometimes. Right now, I feel this. They then mostly. How I got here was really about wanting to create a space that felt comfortable for me.
00:02:41
Speaker
I had gone to a lot of sex-positive spaces and gone to a lot of gay spaces and straight spaces. I just felt there was something in between that was missing, something that could be a little bit more focused on exploration and asking questions and learning more about sex. So yeah, creating SFW is kind of a way to bridge that gap, but also as a way for women to have a space that
00:03:04
Speaker
They have as much sexual freedom as gay men already have on a regular. Gay men have amazing amounts of sexual freedom when it comes to their events and their parties and things like that.
00:03:12
Speaker
And so yeah, a big part of it was just creating a space where, you know, women can feel comfortable. I can feel comfortable with whatever partner I was with and it didn't feel like it has to be one or the other. So I'm curious about like the parties and stuff that you went to before you created NSFW and like how you got involved in that and what it was like. And I guess also with your bi identity, when did you realize you
Daniel's personal journey and coming out
00:03:35
Speaker
were bi? Did that happen first or did it come through this kind of sexual exploration?
00:03:41
Speaker
Well, I think I always knew I was bisexual from a very early age. I would say like 13, 14. I kind of felt that attraction to both. And I just always knew that it seems silly to have to choose a side necessarily. I grew up super religious. So any conversations around sex was just not allowed. And even thoughts about sex was not allowed. And you're constantly confessing all these feelings and stuff. And I remember,
00:04:03
Speaker
being comfortable enough to share my feelings, but it being treated as something that was so wrong and so bad and so preventing me from being close to God. And I think through that realization growing up and going through puberty and getting to a new age where I was dating, it just felt like that was just wrong and it didn't make sense for me.
00:04:20
Speaker
And so, yeah, I started traveling the world and going to different places, doing all the work I was doing in fashion and going to international cities and really seeing what was out there in terms of sex and places that people were going and trying to get into clubs and spots and going to the gay bars in different major cities and being here in New York and going to spots. And over 10 years, I probably went to maybe about 200 events of different types of sex-related parties.
00:04:50
Speaker
kind of just felt like there was something missing in the space and that there needed to be something that was community focused, was allowing people to explore, didn't feel shame based. You know, women didn't feel like property, which is how it is in a lot of spaces, especially at Swinger events and things like that. I wanted to create something new. So yeah, eventually created something, but the background of it was very much
00:05:15
Speaker
I don't know, just feeling ashamed of my sexuality for a long time. I didn't actually publicly come out as bi until I was like 31, 32. And at that point, yeah, at that point it was like I was in the fashion industry.
00:05:26
Speaker
around so many gay men and so many people who are trans and different identities and just feeling like even within that industry that is so open and so diverse, bisexuality just didn't exist. There was no bisexual men. I didn't know anyone except for Alan Cumming. That's about it. He's the only one at the time that I knew of. So yeah, Cumming Out for me was very big on
00:05:49
Speaker
just visibility, like feeling like I'm at the top of my game in fashion. I'm owning Nylon magazine. I'm running socialite. I'm doing so much in this industry. I should be public and proud about whatever my sexuality was. And yeah, in doing that, then came the concept of
00:06:04
Speaker
there should be a space for us. And there should be a space where we could feel comfortable and this can be explored and enjoyed and we can learn about sex and appreciate it for what it is. Agree. Agree. I'm curious like when you, so there, if you knew from an early age and you were exploring these things, especially in other cities, but not identifying as bisexual, I'm curious like how, what like,
00:06:28
Speaker
what was in your mind in those years? And also, did you see in other countries or in the fashion industry, did you see sexual fluidity but people wouldn't address it or call it something and identify a straight? Or did you not see sexual fluidity and you wanted to see it? Was it very segregated?
00:06:50
Speaker
I mean, I think it was very segregated. And I think in a lot of ways, it's still very segregated. When you're in gay spaces, there's a certain idea around consent. There's certain ideas around how people interact with those spaces. There's certain protections to keep certain people out of those spaces. And being bisexual and attracted to women, you don't necessarily feel 100% welcome or 100% accepted. It's going to be a space that you'd bring a girlfriend or anything else like that. So I think there was a little bit of that element. And then going to more of the straight spaces,
00:07:19
Speaker
just the rigidity of how they focus on heteronormativity and, you know, just being hetero and anything outside of women playing with women that was really, really not allowed and would just give you get you bad looks or make people comfortable. And I just felt like there was too many spaces where I myself didn't feel 100% comfortable. And I really wanted to figure out, you know, how do we how do we change that? Because there's definitely a lot more men like me. There's a lot women like who are bisexual as well. And
00:07:48
Speaker
There just wasn't that. So I really just set out to create a space that that could be allowed. And that sexual exploration was like the key. And then eventually, you know, you let the allies in and the straight, straight from the gay, gays, they're allowed to come. Everyone's somewhere on the spectrum of comfort and level of comfort. But I think it's a lot about just teaching people to be comfortable with other people's sexuality and how they choose to explore.
00:08:13
Speaker
Yeah, start with the buys and then
Building a culture of consent at NSFW
00:08:16
Speaker
let everyone in. That's a good motto. I do think it is like I want to talk more about this, like getting comfortable in spaces like this and how to do that. But I also want to talk about that consent thing you said, because I mean, I've experienced everything you're talking about too, like
00:08:31
Speaker
both segregated types of parties. And I've been trying to go to more straight-ish parties because the gay parties are really easy to find. A good mixed-gender party is harder to find.
00:08:47
Speaker
And I have been to some where like, yeah, they say it's queer friendly, but you get there and the only queer thing happening is some women hooking up with each other. And there's no male sexual fluidity and very little gender fluidity in some of them. And so
00:09:06
Speaker
I didn't have a great time at an event like that, and I thought, what's wrong with me? But actually, I think it's the space that just didn't let me be myself and express myself.
00:09:21
Speaker
People want to be inclusive. People, you know, are very big on the idea of like, OK, we have full inclusivity and, you know, all this is going to be OK and all this is loud. But then when you get there, you realize it's really specifically frustrates people and like there's some comfort, but the comfort level isn't fully there. So I think it's, you know, it's important to embrace that there's different types of sexualities. But unless you're building it from the start as like this is what we're aiming for and this is what we're trying to do, it's very, very hard to create what we were able to create here.
00:09:51
Speaker
and to do it consistently, like it's just too difficult.
00:09:59
Speaker
Okay, let's talk about that consent thing because a gay sex party has totally different norms than something like fluid at NSFW. I don't know if that's by design or just the way it is. Do you want to talk about what you've seen and what the difference is? I've talked about it a little before. There's very little talking sometimes at a
00:10:25
Speaker
gay sex party. It's all non-verbal consent." Yeah, no, you have to definitely use your nose in gay spaces sometimes. And I think there's certain gay spaces that have been better at it. I love the inferno parties. I like what Pig House is doing. There's definitely groups that are trying to incorporate more of that consent culture into it. And I think as younger gays are entering into these spaces, there is that conversation around consent. There is that conversation around
00:10:51
Speaker
you know, body autonomy. And I think that's like, it's really the first generation, Gen Z is the first generation really coming into the spaces with that already or an idea of that. So I think gay spaces are evolving slowly and there's definitely ones that are doing very well. But for the most part, yeah, you're nonverbal and like a lot of the consent is based off of like, is this person gonna tell me to stop or tell me to not do this? And that can create a lot of gray areas. And for men, that's great.
00:11:17
Speaker
A lot of men are comfortable with that form of blanket consent when they enter the spaces and they assume the risk of that and they go in ready for it and excited for it and about it. I think when you mix women into any equation, there's going to be different rules that apply and different safety measures that have to be taken. We can't have that type of behavior happening in a space where it's mixed gender. We can't have that type of behavior happening in a space where trans people are or non-binary people are.
00:11:44
Speaker
because that type of behavior just doesn't work. We need to have the conversations, we need to teach about consent, and we need to make sure that consent is part of everything that we do. So from applying for membership to buying a pass to walking into the door to the nymphs and the guardians and the people who are in the spaces, you're constantly cultivating this consent culture.
00:12:01
Speaker
And then having a method of handling things afterwards when there's a conflict, when someone's upset or when something happens, you know, how do you handle that and how do you take care of the people in those situations? But a lot of that is like because of women and it's because of how us as a society have placed women in this place of, you know, the slut or the, you know,
00:12:19
Speaker
or the mother Mary, you know, it's like they're really, we don't, society doesn't give too many other definitions in terms of that. And there's not enough protections. And I think for a lot of women, that thought of being able to be sexually free in a space is rare, you know, there's that fear, unless it's all women's space, like it's very, very rare. So yeah, it's a big part of it. But I think it's something that
00:12:40
Speaker
you know, the approach to sex and the approach to stigma around sex and the approach to shame around sex is why, you know, we need so many more rules than if we, you know, we're just hosting a gay party and it's like, come in hooded, no names anonymous and find a hole, find a hole and go for it.
00:13:01
Speaker
Well, so when I started going to gay parties, I really had to figure out how to navigate that and, as you said, use my nose and say no. If someone's doing something and you don't want them, you have to give the negative consent, the lack of consent, and say no. And eventually, I learned how to do that, but at the beginning, I was in some gray areas and some awkward situations. Okay, so it's good. But then
00:13:28
Speaker
There's also something when I'm comfortable now that's easy about not having to have much interaction. If I lock eyes with someone and you go talk to someone, you just go. So I guess my question is, what do you say to people who don't have experience with your parties or maybe they do have experience in a gay space who
00:13:51
Speaker
are nervous about the talking part and think maybe it's unsexy or they might be rejected. How do you get over those anxieties? Well, I think a lot of it is about space design. A lot of it is about organizational planning around the events and how we teach people ahead of time. But if you look at gay spaces, you're going to have a bar, you're going to have a dark room. There's usually loud music, so you can't really converse properly and talk without yelling.
00:14:20
Speaker
And the darkroom provides a lot of anonymity, which is what people look for in some of the spaces. When you come to a space like NSFW, it's well lit. Music's kept at certain volumes so people can have conversations. And we create ways for people to interact before coming into any of the play spaces. So there might be a host who's playing games with people ahead of time and kind of taking people to introducing and meeting people.
00:14:42
Speaker
If a member wants, they can kind of rent a muse and have someone who comes with them and acts as a buddy for them to talk to other people and like connect them to members that they know. And usually someone who's been part of the community for a while. So it's super comfortable for them to like get to know people. But I think is the thing for here and like what might be different from other, you know, play parties or play spaces is like we are really focused on being a club where sex can happen. You know, not so much a sex club, you know, the option for sex is there.
00:15:11
Speaker
But I would say probably like 30 to 40% of members are here and come for sex. The other 60 to 70% are here to mingle, connect, interact, possibly take someone home. And it's a little bit more about having that kind of club experience, but it being designed for conversations, it being designed for connections, and it being focused on consent, which is very important. Yeah.
00:15:32
Speaker
Cool. I, one of my later questions was sort of, I know the answer, but it was
Event diversity and inclusivity at NSFW
00:15:37
Speaker
like, do you have to have sex at a sex party? And like, I know I, you know, I used to think that's what it is. And if you didn't, you failed at the party. If you haven't had sex by midnight, we are tying you down and it is happening now. Well, that I might like, but. Well, I think, look, you have to consider like how we host things and how other groups host things. A lot of people are hosting things once a month.
00:16:01
Speaker
Once a month is a high amount of pressure for you to go to that event and definitely get laid like I'm going to spend a good amount of money. It's only going to happen this month or maybe it's once a quarter or maybe it's not that often or the guest list is too small so you won't get in it sells out. And it's like then you have this added pressure of like, Oh, I need to play tonight. I need to make sure I'm like going there and ready to like do something. And I think that's really
00:16:21
Speaker
you know, difficult for people who are new into the space and they're trying to figure things out and they're not sure if a sex party is right for them. This space is different. It's like we're hosting things four times a week. That's always open. We're always available. So it changes, you know, the pressure decreases. And I think for people to have really, really good connected sex and sex that is meaningful to them, it has to be no pressure, you know? And so we try to create those elements to allow for that.
00:16:47
Speaker
no pressure environment so someone can come here has never been to a sex club. We've had people who are virgins who are coming here for the first time like never had sex and they're just here and they're like trying to understand, you know, like how this all happens and they take their time. There's really no rush. It's always going to be available.
00:17:04
Speaker
cool. You've kind of described the scene I'm encountering in LA now, which is like fewer, fewer parties, less often more expensive, smaller guest lists. And so there is there did feel like a lot of pressure.
00:17:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's like, I just dropped $200. I better have sex. Yeah, kind of. And I've been to NSFW due to the pandemic and moving to LA. I haven't been as often lately, but I've been five or six times and only had sex maybe two or three of those times. And some of the times I didn't have sex were so much fun, even more fun than some of the times I did have sex.
00:17:42
Speaker
I think there was a game night pre pandemic that was really fun and sexy, even though it wasn't necessarily hardcore sex. And like, uh, some, another one recently, I went to a fluid that I just met some lovely people and like drank and chatted and watched other people do things and it was fun. Yeah, I think that's an experience for a lot of people. There's like, I dunno, I think there's like the interpretation of going to a sex party and we've been very good at, you know,
00:18:12
Speaker
branding ourselves and marketing ourselves and getting press and getting attention. So there is this like image of it, but we got a lot of members who would like join and it'll be like a year, two years, three years. And then finally they come to something. They're like, I worked up enough courage to come. And then they got here. They're like, Oh, this is great. There is that fear. The fear and stigma is still very much there for people in spaces like this. Yeah. Yeah. How, what do you say to people who are too nervous to come at all, even though they might think intellectually they would like it.
00:18:41
Speaker
I don't know. We offer them panties and underwear that they can lock up. So, you know, you can hide the keys somewhere. You're going to be fine. I don't know. I think for a lot of people, you have a lot of people who don't really enjoy sex because they haven't had great sexual experiences, people who have had, you know, negative relationships or abusive relationships or have had, you know, early trauma, traumatic experiences in their childhood, which impact their view of sex and impact their ideas around it. So a lot of people, it's more around,
00:19:11
Speaker
working through those own personal weights that they have and that kind of weight of shame and that weight of feeling of not being wanted or being rejected. And it's like working, getting people comfortable enough to like release that and kind of this being the way to release that, you know, like, hey, you've made it here.
00:19:30
Speaker
now you're kind of ready onto the sexual journey. Now you're ready to meet more people and connect to people who are more open-minded and interested in kink or tantra or anything else you're looking to explore. But that's the first step. So I think for people who are scared, it's really just training them around the idea of just come. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to interact and
00:19:48
Speaker
and be a part of anything that's happening that you don't want to be a part of. But at least you can watch and you can see. And I think from that watch and see is where people get the most education around what we're trying to teach and get some excited about it and wants to be involved in that and want to try those things. So, yeah, it's more about just ignoring that feeling in your mind that one, it's shameful, two, it's dangerous or you're going to have to interact.
00:20:15
Speaker
and three, that you're gonna be forced to do anything you don't wanna do. And I think once you remove those three, people come and they love coming and they'll continue to come and come and come and come and come. Just keep coming. Literally, yeah, cool. I do think it is like you kinda have to practice getting comfortable in a space like that and yet you can do it in a low pressure way and not have to jump in the water right away.
00:20:41
Speaker
And we also have like said noobs, which we do once a month or sometimes twice a week, depending on the season. But that's a good event as well where people can like come and, you know, it's not a play party. It's really just about understanding what the community is about and understanding our code of conduct and how to like report things and how to like be watchful over the community and giving people kind of that.
00:21:01
Speaker
I don't know that responsibility, you know, of letting them know like this is your space. Like we are sharing this. This is our shared space. Like this is all for us. So like contribute and be a part of that and keep us safe and keep working towards that. And I think people come to send noobs and then right away they're like, okay, I'm ready for play date. I'm ready to go. And like, they get a feel for it. I think that's important too. You need to have those like introductory events and like, just have that there as an opportunity for people who are just unsure. Cool.
00:21:32
Speaker
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00:21:50
Speaker
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00:22:15
Speaker
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00:22:40
Speaker
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00:23:09
Speaker
Hey everyone, just a reminder that as of now we are still trying to book spots for our buy plus trip to Maine in June of 2023. If you are interested you can find it in our link tree or in the show notes links to the Trova trip. I will be hosting a trip to coastal Maine with other buy people. We've got a bunch of people signed up already but we don't have enough to make the trip happen.
00:23:34
Speaker
So if you're interested in it, thinking about it can afford it. I would love for more people to sign up so we can do this and keep it going in the future. I apologize that this will not be for everyone and I understand that not everyone will be able to do this. If you are interested in the idea but just can't come to the main trip in June,
00:23:54
Speaker
Please DM me and let me know and tell me what you might like to see. They also have some more hiking-based trips out west that would be cheaper and would be like, we're camping intense. Maybe we should try one of those if that would be more interesting. Maybe June is just a difficult time. Maybe we want to go to Bali or somewhere even further away. Let me know if you're interested, because in theory, I like this idea of going on these bi-trips. But if we can't sell them out, we can't sell them out. It's OK. It was worth a shot.
00:24:23
Speaker
But the main trip sounds awesome, the itinerary's online already. If you're interested, check it out. And we need a few more people to sign up in order to go. In general, I just want to say I appreciate you all and thank you for putting up with a lot of these ads we've been putting in the episodes. I know we didn't used to do that at the beginning and we have been a lot this year. This is really just helping me sustain this podcast so that I am not losing money on it. I do want to keep this podcast going and I want to continue to
00:24:52
Speaker
shine a light on the bi community. It does take a lot of work, it is a lot of hours for me, and so I am trying to find ways to support myself and keep doing this work. So I appreciate you sticking with us and sticking through these ads. So thanks for listening to this, thanks for listening to this episode, and now back to more with Daniel Sate.
00:25:18
Speaker
So tell us a little about how sexual fluidity is baked into the culture there and what's the spectrum of different events you have? Because I know there's fluid nights, but it's not just that. I could answer, but I'll let you. What's the range of events and what kind of crowds do you get at each of them?
00:25:41
Speaker
So we have play dates that happen every single Saturday, which are more all play. I would say in terms of the membership, we look at it. It's about 83% that falls within what we call the Buy Plus category. And Buy Plus includes hetero flexible, homo flexible, fluid, trans, non-binary, just a lot of different things that fall within the bisexual umbrella, pansexual, demisexual, all those things. So amongst the membership, it's usually around 80% kind of fall within that category.
00:26:11
Speaker
So it kind of builds that base. We already know that that's going to be a portion of it. Um, big part of our code of conduct is around, you know, not yucking on anyone's yum. Um, if someone finds something enjoyable, it's not your job to feel uncomfortable with that. And I think that's very important, especially for heterosexual males to like understand like, Hey, you're coming into space where this stuff is allowed. So your behavior towards that stuff is important as well. And, you know, as an ally, as someone who's supporting, you know, this community, like,
00:26:39
Speaker
accept that and understand that and be respectful of that. And I think having that in the language of what you have to agree to before you join, having that in the language of how we talk to people at the door, having that ingrained within myself, the membership, a lot of the people who are involved with NSFW, who are bisexual or who are
00:26:56
Speaker
you know, open, um, helps, you know, and it helps reduce that friction between people who are straight straight and that friction between people who are gay, gay. Um, and I think on that spectrum, you know, that's where we fall, you know, so as long as those groups are respectful of our way of being in and connecting, that's great for the events side. Um, we have all play events. We have couples only, which has a little bit of fluidity to it. We have fluid, which is a just, you know, gender fluid, uh, bisexual like party that's focused on that.
00:27:26
Speaker
We also do all male parties and all female parties. All female parties we're currently working on for January. We're bringing those back. We've done a couple things that are like coven based and witchcrafty based as well as just you know femme and celebration of femininity type events. Then we have frat and then partner events. So we work with Mask Lab which does a lot of recordings within the gay and bisexual community of like porn and adult stuff.
00:27:52
Speaker
A lot of adult stars who come through who are members who are part of that party and that's an all-male party.
00:27:57
Speaker
And now we're hosting a monthly pig house, which is like another all male party that we have here once a month. And it's kind of how we provide for the community and making sure that we have events that can be just masculine spaces or all male spaces that can be all female or all feminine spaces. And then can also be in the middle and fluid and kind of present that as well. It's about options here. So like we just try to continuously have a calendar that reflects what the members want to find and do and just keep doing that.
00:28:27
Speaker
Awesome. Yeah, I've had fun at a number of different types of events, but actually, I think one of the first things I ever came to besides Ascent Noobs was a frat. It was pre-pandemic, and it was quite fun. I had a lot more fun than I expected to. The role play of it, I liked. Can you tell us why did you choose that theme for your male events and
00:28:51
Speaker
you've kept it going, so clearly it's popular. Like, why do you think that theme resonates with, like, bi men or gay men or whoever?
00:29:00
Speaker
I think like that event was really specifically designed for bisexual men, men who are first exploring or first trying things. And we wanted to make it into something where they could be guided, right? And you know, when we talk about consent, we obviously do a lot of work with doms and dominatrixes. So what we do for that event is that we have a pledge master, someone who comes in who's kind of like the dom for the party, and everyone who attends is a pledge or can be like one of the masters.
00:29:25
Speaker
And they go through and pair people off and there's aspects of forced bisexuality, aspects of doing things and being told to do things, aspects of femininity and playing with that and playing with those roles. And I think that works for people because there's always been a desire for that. I think a lot of members have been in fraternities in the past and there's elements of homoeroticism that comes from that, that they've never been able to explore and been able to openly enjoy.
00:29:50
Speaker
So I think that element's there. I think there's a lot of gay men who might be more femme, who want to explore that and want to explore being in control of someone and being the dominant and play with that role or taking on a more submissive role and being that role as well.
00:30:06
Speaker
I think there's a desire there. The reason that event has been successful in the past is people want to play with those dynamics in a safe way, and this event allows for that. So that was really designed for men who were afraid to do things with men, but wouldn't be afraid if they were told to. But want to. Want to, but need someone to tell them to, and to be a little bit forced to allow for that exploration.
00:30:32
Speaker
right, consensually forced. As a sub top, I appreciated that. I wasn't in a frat, but I always imagined that kind of stuff. I think it was before I realized I was bi and I had those fantasies without really
00:30:49
Speaker
thinking about what it meant or addressing it. And there was a lot of porn when I was like in college and after that was like frat hazing porn. Yeah, like frat ex porn. That's really popular. Yeah, I think it's really dirty ass dorm rooms. It's like put away the pizza boxes. Like, all right, let's go for it.
00:31:12
Speaker
I used to believe it was all real and it was shot in colleges and then I realized that porn sets can mimic a college courtroom pretty easily. Yeah, I can figure that out. Yeah.
00:31:28
Speaker
because I'm still figuring this out and navigating
Redefining swinger culture
00:31:30
Speaker
it. I never really went to play parties as a straight person, but there's the swinger culture and there's that kind of swinging community, which seems to be couples of usually man and woman who
00:31:46
Speaker
play usually together and swap partners and stuff like that. And I've even seen some play in group play that's same sex, but it's still pretty heteronormative in a certain way. A lot of those people won't talk about being bisexual or we're definitely identify as
00:32:10
Speaker
straight or mostly straight. How does that differ from what you guys are trying to create? There must be some straight-swinger couples who come to NSFW, but how does it differ for them from other parties? What's the difference in the culture?
00:32:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think Swinger culture, you know, definitely so exists. It has evolved over the years. I think when we first started, you know, probably eight years ago, you know, there was still big Swinger parties and big Swinger culture and kind of like stories coming out of those. And I was going to some of those spaces as well and just experiencing the parties where you have to bring a female partner. And this is like what it is when you get there.
00:32:49
Speaker
I'd say within swinger culture and community, there seems to be more swapping. Obviously, less bisexuality amongst the men, less play amongst the men, and strict rules, whether it's a soft swap or a hard swap with other partners and what they're allowed to do. A lot of it seems to be like, I'm into your girl, you're into my girl.
00:33:06
Speaker
a lot of conversations that might happen are usually between the men within those spaces. I think here because there is a higher amount of single people and there's a higher likelihood of threesomes that are MMF or FMM, the women have a lot more say in terms of how they interact. So when we find
00:33:25
Speaker
couples coming here are people who are familiar with Swinger culture, it feels more like there's a mutual decision on certain things versus how it can be in some of those parties where it seems a little bit more the men are kind of having conversations and like then we're playing. So I think the agency of who makes the decisions changes a little bit in spaces like this and the option of
00:33:48
Speaker
Let's have a threesome, but it's not with another girl. It becomes an option in a space like this, which I think a lot of people are looking for, and they don't necessarily find within Twinkerspaces.
00:33:57
Speaker
Uh huh. Cool. I've also seen at some parties, I won't say which ones, but like people who are not transphobic, like trans friendly, but also it's a new thing for them and they're not used to it. And there's like this hesitation and, and you know, these spaces don't tend to have a ton of trans people. Uh, like how, how do you guys encourage gender fluidity and trans identities and like,
00:34:23
Speaker
how do you address that kind of culture and sort of help normalize that?
00:34:29
Speaker
I mean, I think for this space when we were talking about non-binary and trans individuals, a lot of it is more about outreach and trying to make sure that they feel comfortable to join. I feel like for a lot of trans individuals, it's like they only will go to spaces that are clearly defined as like, this is a space for trans people. We have a good amount of trans and non-binary within our membership. It's about 5% when we look at the numbers of it. So there are the members there.
00:34:53
Speaker
And they come here, they enjoy, they are able to enjoy the party. There's definitely people who find, you know, are attracted to them and want to be engaged with them. And it doesn't feel as much as like a novelty, which I think is how it plays out in some other spaces, especially if someone's like the only non-binary, the only trans person within the space. For us, it's like finding the events that make sense, but also aligning with organizations that are doing stuff for trans rights. So we work with a lot of charitable groups that, you know, are specifically focused on that. We host their events here. We do things for them.
00:35:21
Speaker
We make sure that trans identities are included within our performances and our muses, and we try to bring in more of that community in. But unless you're actively outreaching and trying to represent that group or bring that group in or make them feel included, they're not going to appear. They're not going to show up to these spaces. So there's a lot of spaces like, yeah, we are trans friendly, but it's one trans person, and that person feels like the odd individual out, and that's not
00:35:46
Speaker
exactly how you create, you know, within a space. And it's not how you accept that you have to, you know, outreach create programs, like we offer free memberships, like there's a lot of things that we do to make sure that that community feels comfortable within the spaces. And I don't think I don't think most spaces have that kind of
00:36:06
Speaker
goal as much as we like really make it a goal. Like, hey, we need more of this representation. We need more of this. Let's outreach. Let's get on podcasts. Let's do stuff. Let's get media. Let's outreach to the people who are influencers within that space. Let's encourage them to come here. Let's like make sure that community feels welcome here. And more importantly,
00:36:24
Speaker
make sure the rest of the community understands this is what this space is for. We want this diversity in genders. We want this diversity in people. More importantly than anything else we do, we want that variety. It shouldn't feel like one group dominates within the space, and we really do work on that.
00:36:43
Speaker
cool. Okay, last question about NSFW. One of those times I mentioned that I had so much fun without having sex was I think it was a little more geared toward kink play and there was somebody being tied up and there was somebody on a cross getting flogged and you were eating someone's ass who identified as a straight guy.
00:37:03
Speaker
you know, just lots of people were trying lots of new things. And I just, I thought it was so cool. I was in a straight man's ass. What am I doing? I was talking to this straight man and he was telling me he was straight and he was like, he was like tickling my arm and telling me he thought what this is what I do with women. And I was like, cool, that's cool. You're straight. And then like a half hour later I saw you. Just me, me right in there. I mean,
00:37:30
Speaker
I guess that falls into the hetero flexible category. I was trying to remove masculinity in the best way I know how. Yeah, but my question is, what's the difference between a more kink-oriented party and a play party? Is there a difference or what's the feel like at those kind of things? What do you get to explore there?
00:37:56
Speaker
I think when you start opening up the areas of sex that you can explore, especially when you get into kink or BDSM and other areas like that, there is more fluidity within those spaces. There is more acceptance for different ways in which you might want to explore your kinks and might want to explore fetishes. So I think there is more of that kind of gender fluidity and general sexual identity fluidity that comes from those spaces and come from the events that we host that focus on that.
00:38:24
Speaker
So I think that's a big part of it for us too, where we are hosting events that are really focused on kink. It's like we're opening up a new audience, you know, there's, and when it comes to sex and where people are in terms of how they're trying to explore it, like we always consider like the kinksters as like kind of that next level, the advanced level of people. Um, so it brings in a lot more people who are just familiar with the lifestyle, more comfortable with it. And again, it makes everything comfortable for everyone else.
00:38:49
Speaker
cool. I like those events. You should do more of those. And it's weird. It's like, in a sense, it is like next level. But for some reason, I actually feel even more comfortable at a party like that, maybe because I'm just very kinky and queer. But like, I don't know if somehow there feels like less performance, anxiety for me at something like that, because it's like, there's you kind of know what you're doing or what you're watching other people do. It's kind of more defined.
00:39:23
Speaker
Let's transition. Let's talk a little about the firm tech, which if you all haven't seen, I did a couple of social media posts.
Innovations in sexual health technology
00:39:32
Speaker
It's this ring. There it is. You put it on your dick. We can say dick on here, even though I had to blur it out on social media. I mean, they'll bleep it. I haven't said dick for three years.
00:39:46
Speaker
Okay, so you're a brand ambassador for the firm tech. Yeah. So tell us a little like how you got involved. And I've explained it on social media, but yeah, you've definitely talked about what is it? How does it work? I mean, firm tech is this new company that's working on wearable technology for men. It's really just a way for you to
00:40:05
Speaker
in essence, track your penile health. And as someone who uses this penis very often, it's very important for me to track my penile health. And what it does is just like an app enabled wearable.
00:40:17
Speaker
This is the ring. It snaps on really easy. They have their own design around it. And unlike traditional cock rings, it just breaks open. So it's really easy to put on and off. And it's also one of the only cock rings that you can wear at night. So what you do is you sync it up, you put it on, and then you get results. I actually just pulled
00:40:43
Speaker
results from like last night and it just gives you like nice little stats on how well your penis is performing throughout the night and lets you know how many nightly erections you have. It gives you a firmness score so you know how firm your penis is at night and also lets you see if any medications you're taking might be affecting your penile strength, if alcohol or maybe diet is affecting you as well.
00:41:07
Speaker
I think right now there's been this massive trend of getting young men, especially people in their 20s and 30s, onto Viagra, onto, you know, lots of pills, Cialis. It's just become so regular for people to just take medication for erections. A lot of times people are mixing it with drugs, which is extremely dangerous. I've definitely heard within, you know, spaces of sex positive spaces, like overdoses happening for people taking Viagra and also doing cocaine and just really, really dangerous things occurring.
00:41:34
Speaker
This over-medication of American men has just gone on for so long, outside of antidepressants and ADHD medicines and other things which cause problems with your penis already and cause issues of erection. Having men starting in their 20s, getting on Viagra, which is a pill designed for people in their 60s, very, very bad trend. It's something that we want to prevent. This is kind of a preventative measure. It's a way to prevent erectile dysfunction by knowing how well your penis is performing.
00:42:01
Speaker
The data on here can be shared with urologists. It's been kind of set and reviewed by a number of them and reviewed by a lot of doctors. And yeah, I just think it's better to encourage people to not take medications to make sure their penis works, which is a normal function thing that your penis should work through your 20s and 30s. And maybe just find out how well you're doing in general. So it's a health tool. And I think it's really great. And I like it. It's good.
00:42:30
Speaker
I had no idea that my penis was performing at all at night. I have to track this and find out. And yeah, I have seen a lot of the medication, and I also wonder if that's related to sexuality and exploration, because it was for me. I remember right before I came out, I was having
00:42:50
Speaker
a lot of performance anxiety, especially with women. I thought I needed medication and I even tried it once or twice. Honestly, it didn't even work. It can't really get you hard when there's so much complicated stuff going on in your head. Then what happened was I explored with men, I came out, and then I was fine with women again. It was really a mental thing.
00:43:16
Speaker
And I but I guess what so there's that and also what people don't really know is like
00:43:21
Speaker
I never knew what a cock ring was and what it did and that it actually can help your performance in the moment too. Can you talk about all that? Yeah, exactly. I mean, you can definitely work. I mean, what's interesting is like the majority of people who buy cock rings are gay men. 90% of all purchases are being done by gay men and they use it for performance. They're having sex on a more regular basis. They want to make sure they're hard. They want to make sure that they're ready to go. So the majority of the audience for the products of cock rings has been gay men. Straight men don't know who likes treatment.
00:43:49
Speaker
The only thing that marketed is pills. Like all your marketed is like, take him, take this, like sign up for this. It's not part of straight culture at all. And I feel like if you take one out with a woman, she's going to be a little confused. Like what is that for? Yeah. Yeah. I think like that's where there is some education that needs to happen. There's a massive market of men who are being overmedicated and given pills as like the only solution.
00:44:09
Speaker
And there's better solutions that have been around for a while. I think this one's great because it's just something that you can also track on the tech side. And that's really interesting for a lot of straight men to just know where you stand versus others. We have this big competition that we're truly introducing in the new year. We're doing it with potentially lioness, which tracks women's orgasms with a similar type of device. And we want to see who's the most orgasmic in America, really just tracking different people and seeing how they're performing.
00:44:37
Speaker
It gives us a ranking so we can literally find who's having the most orgasms, who's having the firmest cock, who's getting all these stats and scores, and hopefully encourage people to pay attention to their penile health. A good dick is a key to a good life. Honestly, with diabetes, with cancers, with certain things, penile health is what tracks it first. It's actually the first indicator.
00:45:01
Speaker
If your penis isn't doing well, it's usually an indicator of something else in your body. So I think those conversations are something that men need to have and not just go straight to medicating, you know, to function properly. It really just takes a little bit of pressure and something like this.
00:45:16
Speaker
Wow. I really love games. If you turn this into like a game or a contest and encourage people to have the most sex, I will be participating and having lots of fun. And honestly, I want to meet the man with the firmest dick in America. I'd like to know that person. I feel like that's a good connect. Well, yeah, I like this one because of the easy on, easy off. I sometimes get scared of the firm ones that are closed and I'm like too scared to put them on.
00:45:45
Speaker
Well, I think one thing that people have to keep in mind is like the titanium ones, those cock rings that are fully metal titanium, which they sell a lot of them. Yeah. Medical professionals do not have the tools to remove that from your penis if it gets stuck on, which means you have to bring in the fire department. So just keep in mind, if you're using one of those tools and you cannot get it off, like you go to the doctors, like they can't take it off for you either. They're bringing in the fire department, the jaws of life to get that thing off. And I think,
00:46:12
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, so then I thought you were going to talk me down from that anxiety, but I guess it's appropriate anxiety and I am into it. It's appropriate anxiety. And I should be scared of them. There's a few. I think people's interaction with sex toys is so a medical category and it really just has to be like, there used to be a show, it's like I went to the hospital from sex or like sex hospital. It's like all these really awful sex related reasons people have to go to the ER.
00:46:40
Speaker
Oh god, that's crazy. Yeah, okay, well, I won't, I have one of those and I've never put it on because I'm just too scared.
00:46:56
Speaker
I want to ask you about one other topic before we end, which is my other favorite love, cannabis. And so cannabis is kind of part of the NSFW culture and it's been part of your professional career.
Cannabis as a cultural enhancer at NSFW
00:47:11
Speaker
Can you talk about, like, did it also play a role in your bi journey? Like, for me, I feel like weed opens me up to different ways of thinking in a queer way. Like, how did it affect you on your journey and how's it part of your work and NSFW?
00:47:30
Speaker
Well, I think plant-based medicines as a whole are definitely an important portion of what we see NSFW going and focusing on. We just started a collaboration. We have our own cannabis line coming out soon, which will be mixed forms of cannabis with Damiana, with lavender, with cacao, and producing different elements, whether it's being more comfortable to talk to people, having more sexual libido and being more excited about sex or aftercare and recovery and kind of going through that.
00:47:59
Speaker
So cannabis as a whole is just a very, very sexual plant, like I feel. It's always been part of NSFW from the very beginning of being open for cannabis smoking. I think in my own personal journey, yeah, I would say cannabis definitely had a play in making me more comfortable in sexual situations.
00:48:16
Speaker
make me more open to things that i want to try or do and i think that's the same for a lot of people like not everyone gets that effect from cannabis is a certain people don't interact with it well but for those who do finding the right strains finding the ones that you make you more comfortable in sexual situations is very key and there's a lot of them that are known for that.
00:48:37
Speaker
based off of the terpenes they have, based off the THC levels, based off their CBD levels. So there's a lot of benefits to that. And we've seen a huge market of cannabis infused products for lube, cannabis suppositories from companies like Foria, really doing great work in bringing cannabis into sex. But yeah, it's always been a massive component of the space. It just brings people together in a very specific way and
00:49:02
Speaker
I think it's a very tribal, very spiritual way, and I think it's important to have that as, I don't know, like kind of like holy sacrament, really.
00:49:11
Speaker
Uh-huh. Yeah. It's definitely helped me sort of feel at home when I'm there, like, because I can just take the vape out or a joint. Like, I know that a lot of play parties don't encourage certain drugs or specifically say no drugs because you want to keep people under control and safe with each other in a group space like that. But are there certain drugs besides cannabis that are sort of like enhancing sex and others that you wouldn't recommend that are dangerous?
00:49:41
Speaker
I mean, I think everyone has to make that decision for themselves. I think when people come into sexual spaces or come to parties in general, there's going to be some level of using drugs and doing that as well. We try to make sure that everyone here is never overly intoxicated or inebriated and that no one here is in a place where they can't consent or they can't make decisions. So there's a lot of just watching over people and seeing their behaviors.
00:50:06
Speaker
Um, for me personally, I prefer cannabis for sex activities. There's not really other drugs that I enjoy as much for that. Sometimes like a really good ketamine fuck is fun and just kind of being in a disassociated place while you're engaging in sex can be fun. Mushrooms have been really, really good for it. Um, Damiana has produced, uh, not Damiana, um, DMT has produced some very crazy sexual situations. I've definitely been to parties where mushrooms and LSC is a focus of like the evening and the week. And you have someone kind of watching over you as you're like,
00:50:36
Speaker
engaging sexually with stuff like that. But yeah, you can't do that in a space like this. You have to do that really in a protected space with the right people and kind of build on that. But I don't know, sex and drugs, it definitely goes hand in hand. There's definitely people who prefer that experience. And for me and for what I advise everyone is just in moderation. Like you don't want to take advantage of that stuff and you don't want to be in situations where you can't say no and you can't really consent. So it's important to be careful.
00:51:03
Speaker
Cool. So if people want to try out NSFW, I know sometimes how you become a member changes. So can you tell us what's going on now? I always have to check before I come. What do I need to get in this time?
00:51:19
Speaker
Well, we now have member cards. So we have to send you over your member card, which means you won't have any issues checking in. You can get tickets and be able to come to events and stuff like that. But yeah, a lot of it is applications. So there's an application process. We're at about like 10-20% acceptance rate right now for people who are coming in. We're working on our next spaces. So we're going to be opening up memberships for those spaces soon. But yeah, apply, take time to put effort into your application. We allow a lot of different types of people and definitely a lot of types of
00:51:48
Speaker
you know, sexuality is another thing. So it's not so much about who you are. It's more about intention. It's more about, you know, contributions to the community and what you can provide and how you can be a part of this and how you're going to add to the experience. We try to really focus in on like how people can contribute to making this bigger and making this better. So yeah, a lot of it is about that. Cool.
00:52:11
Speaker
Awesome. We will put some links in the show notes and also a link to the firm tech. If you're interested in buying one of those, that's also in our link tree and our bio. Any other final thoughts or anything you want to talk about? No, we got to get to LA soon now that you're over there. Well, if you need help with franchising out in LA, I would love to help you set this up out there. I'd love to just attend if you guys get it going out there.
00:52:36
Speaker
Yeah, we are we are in those moments right now. So we're like preparing all of our licensing stuff, how our education programs go out for the people hosting events. And in the new year, we're expecting to be in a lot more cities. So definitely a life for very soon.
00:52:49
Speaker
Awesome. I can't wait for this social sex revolution LA next and then every other city, hopefully. Perfect. It's going to be good. Cool. Well, thank you so much, Daniel. It's nice to finally have you on after we were we were there at the beginning at Slut Ever and now we've come so far. Anyway, it's great having thank you so much for having me on. It's really, really great.
00:53:16
Speaker
2 by Guys is produced and edited by me, Rob Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our logo art is by Caitlin Weinman, our music is by Ross Mincer, we are supported by the Gotham, and we are part of the Zencaster Creator Network. Use promo code 2 by Guys to get 30% off your first three months of Zencaster. Thanks for listening to 2 by Guys.