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TOS: "Plato's Stepchildren" (s3e10)
123 Plays4 months ago
THE VILE FRONTIER. The elites are at it again! Kirk & Spock are tortured for the amusement of a bunch of blue-blooded assholes in order to compel Dr. McCoy to give up his Starfleet commission and become their personal physician. It's The Original Series most notable examination of class warfare that resonates to this very day! It also features singing and dancing loooooong before "Subspace Rhapsody" AND one of the first interracial kisses on television, though it's not as historic as it was once made out to be.
The grades begin at (17:58).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Trek, Marry, Kill'
00:00:00
Speaker
This week on Trek, Marry, Kill. Singing, crying 35. Next.
00:00:11
Speaker
I got beat. Where are you going? I don't know. I don't want to go, but I can't help myself. Let me give you a high pot of yeast of pain.
00:00:28
Speaker
They're gonna kill you anyway. Do you know that? In that case, what's the point in you dying too, Alex? First time anybody ever thought of my life before his own. I'm Tweedle Dee. He's Tweedle Dum. You spaceman marching to a drop. Take care, young ladies, value your wine. Better drinks. I am not afraid. I'm i so ashamed. Please make them stop. We have had enough of your moralizing. We've had too much of yours.
Star Trek's Ambitious Episodes Discussion
00:01:14
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. And I'm Kristen. Welcome to Trek, Marry, Kill, a podcast that for so long has wanted to be close to Star Trek. Now all it wants to do is crawl away and die. Now, why would I say something like that? Because we're talking about Star Trek's big swings. ah Last week, we graded Threshold from Star Trek Voyager, aka the one where Tom Paris and Captain Janeway turn into salamanders and have salamander babies. Next week, we'll be talking about the biggest swing in Star Trek history, subspace Rhapsody from Strange New Worlds, AKA the musical episode. And in between, here's an episode that mixes both far out there science fiction like salamanders and musical moments. I feel like I sprung this one on you. Like you had no, you you were not aware of it. so
00:02:07
Speaker
What I saw on the schedule was like, oh, I've seen this one like recently, and I accidentally confused it for another episode. ah Confused it for another one where it's like classicism or whatever. yeah um Depicted on in Star Trek.
Exploration of Class and Power Dynamics
00:02:27
Speaker
It's often confused with who mourns for Adonaius. I'm talking about Plato's Stepchildren, the 10th episode from the third season of the original series. It premiered on NBC November 22nd, 1968, written by Meyer Delinsky and directed by David Alexander. Memory Alpha describes it. The Enterprise finds a planet inhabited by aliens who were once followers of the Greek philosopher Plato.
00:02:54
Speaker
What memory alpha doesn't let tell you is that these followers are monsters and they take to torturing Kirk Spock McCoy and a little person named Alexander with their telekinetic powers in order to get what they want. It's both a classic Star Trek set up. They're answering a distress call. Lo and behold, it's God like creatures who are fucking assholes. And it's also a timeless story of class solidarity and the way the elites crush regular people under their f***ed up boots, or in this case, sandals. Was this the first time you saw it? No, I mean, I've seen parts of it. I've seen that clip of Spock laughing, obviously.
00:03:33
Speaker
I believe Kurt slapping himself as a gift. Oh, yeah. And I think if I'm not mistaken, this would would have been, I guess, the Thanksgiving episode of 1968. That's right. Just a imagine. So just the feeling of going home to your family. sir Yeah. And ah so these aliens are monsters and they're very, but they're very lazy. Very. Can't exert energy to do anything. have no immune system, a single cut could kill them. Yeah. ah So I mentioned the flu thing and I had that big watch rewatch and all that stuff. This one did not get included in that. It could be that I had passed out and forgotten and just assumed I watched it and whatever, because I have no recollection of this until lockdown when I finally took the plunge, because it was always one that I saw and I just didn't want to watch because
00:04:26
Speaker
I really was from a young age told stay away from Star Trek the original series third
Skepticism and Impact of Star Trek's Third Season
00:04:32
Speaker
season. It's not good. There are no good episodes. So I've always been reticent to go back and watch them. So I kind of like force myself to be like, I don't watch it. See what it's about. sounds kind I'm kind of on this kick of watching one where I like the idea of Kirk punching God in the mouth. It's a good Star Trek trope. And while this episode really, I was slack-jawed the entire time I watched it then, and I re-watched it for this one, and it it packed the same wallop as it did during lockdown.
00:05:03
Speaker
ah Just to give you a sense of what I mean about what I responded to though, this is from Memory Alpha, but this episode was not shown until 1993, December 1993 in the United Kingdom because the BBC skipped it due to quote, sadistic elements in the plot. The official BBC statement ah was, and I will not do a British accent because it will sound cartoonish, Oh, to hell with it. Boy, after very careful consideration. No, boy. The of the morning. Yes. A top level. Yes. A top level decision was made not to many episodes. ah They didn't screen Empath, whom gods destroy, Plato's Stepchildren and Miri ah because they all dealt most unpleasantly with the already unpleasant subjects of madness, torture, sadism and disease.
00:05:58
Speaker
OK. Yeah. ah But there's ah it's a there's a lot more about in the research about how uncomfortable this episode made
Controversial Reception and Societal Themes
00:06:05
Speaker
people. The critical reception, which I'll mention later. Suffice it to say, people were very uncomfortable with what they were watching. They either landed on it was uncomfortable because they were in it or they were able to take themselves out and just like view it as goofy or silly. But I really was caught up in how it resonates today. you know These Platonians might as well have been these Davos assholes going to the world economic forum every year you know on a confab talking about how they're going to crush people as we head further into the future. And that was the point of the episode.
00:06:41
Speaker
So I can't believe that, you know, the same issues sort of persist, but also seeing ah Star Trek tackle it in a way that was very Star Trek, but also very on the nose for what it was about but in the same way the half white half black was for
Plato's Influence on the Episode's Narrative
00:06:57
Speaker
race. This was for class. yeah Plato is, of course, an ancient Greek philosopher, student of Socrates, and teacher of Aristotle. He wrote The Republic, which is a cornerstone of Western philosophy, had some thoughts about people and power and justice. He came from a powerful, connected family, so it's no wonder he believed in a system that propped up such families. He taught that culture sorry Socrates, his his teacher, taught him that culture is organized into a three-piece caste system
00:07:26
Speaker
That just so happens to be organized around the human spirit made up of appetite, spirit, and reason. And those are workers, warriors, and rulers. And wouldn't you know it, both of the first two are designed to prop up the third one. um But rulers are supposed to be, ideally, those who are intelligent, rational, self-controlled, in love with wisdom, well-suited to make decisions for the community. And this episode kind of lays bare the truth that we live in every day and that they are lazy, helpless little babies who are cruel pieces of shit. Yeah. ah Going back to, a you know, this is an uncomfortable episode to watch it most of the time because there's sort of some shameful shit on the screen. Yeah. And I mean, I think it's supposed to be shameful. Yes, it's supposed to. It's supposed to be very. I mean, it's still. Yeah, like I mean, it's supposed to make us uncomfortable. So I guess I'm going to not be too harsh on it for those reasons. But.
00:08:26
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the thinking for me selecting this one, especially putting it right before Subspace Rhapsody was, when I watched Subspace Rhapsody, I watched it from behind a pillow. And every time I subsequently watched it, I've had secondhand embarrassment for everyone doing it. And some of the feedback for this one, viewers, was they were feeling the standards in practice. There's like this whole idea of like, we're making these actors or characters actually, do some very unpleasant things here that's very embarrassing and we don't want the audience to feel embarrassed for them too that could cause a big problem.
Social Impact and Standards Handling
00:09:03
Speaker
um I mean, had I watched this when it premiered, I would have been like, oh but I didn't. yeah And so therefore, I mean, I was still entertained. I wasn't as embarrassed as I probably could have been.
00:09:17
Speaker
I was also also there singing and dancing in this one, and they're singing and dancing in Subspace Rhapsody. Oh, yeah. theres You betcha. So it made some sense to ah so put these right next to each other. The fact that it's about something other than singing and dancing, I think, is what why it sticks at all. Any other thoughts on Plato or standards of practices? So the story is, that I have nowhere else to put this. The story is these people went to Earth because their planet was dying and then they went to Earth during the time of Plato, but decided to, when the Greek civilization died, they were like, all right, we're out of here? They were like, the Romans? No. Right. Those guys. I'm not sticking around for that. Mm hmm. That's weird.
00:10:09
Speaker
I mean, yeah, like we've taken what we want. By the way, we don't care for Aristotle. But they did. They had to stick around for Aristotle because I think they end up giving out the trifles they say would have been from Aristotle's time, I think, some of them. I don't know. I'm going to have to look at it. I don't know. I'm not an ancient i'm not ancient Greece ah historian, obviously. But we also don't know. I mean, we're getting their side of the story. They could have hung around a lot longer. And then the Romans were like, time to kill these pieces of shit. Yeah, they probably would have been like, what the fuck are these lazy? And they don't have the mind powers yet on Earth. So they're like, let's get out of here. And if they have that poor immune system, I mean, you're getting you're going to get in a knife fight in ancient Rome.
00:10:54
Speaker
Well, you're forgetting that they came from their planet ah you know that orbited a star that Novid, but before they left, they were part of a culling. They were the best of what remained. Their civilization was like, since we're all going to die anyway, we might as well do some eugenics and send the best of us off into the galaxy to try to survive and thrive. And and they it seems like these dilatants got to Earth, and they're like, well, we'll take these people over, no
Critique of Alien Cultural Appropriation
00:11:24
Speaker
problem. And then it became like, this yeah, space men versus cavemen, and they got rinsed. And so they're like, time to go. Yeah. they gotnly Not only did they get rinsed, but they were like, this Plato guy. Yeah. He's onto something. He's onto something. And they couldn't come up with any, like they had no culture back home. So they were like, we're just going to take theirs. Yeah.
00:11:43
Speaker
yeah cause they're all like ibreds you know it' like they all hapsburgs that just
00:11:52
Speaker
Uh, the original title was the sons of Socrates made intentionally Fred Freiberger wanted to be Plato. I can't remember the reason now, but they, that's why I changed it. The original story outline was submitted June 10th, 1968, just two months after MLK junior was assassinated and the civil rights act was passed. It's a weird thing to look back and be like, let me give this straight. They passed the civil rights act the week after the FBI killed Martin Luther King. That's, that's kind of gross. Anyway, the this I'm saying that because Meyer Delinsky, this was intentional, the the the class stuff. His pitch was, how do humans stay humble when given the power to physically control others? And how do they stay moral? And he had an agenda. This is from Mark Cushman's book. These are the voyages, Star Trek, the original series.
00:12:45
Speaker
Season three, he says an he wanted to do an examination of class snobbery combined with, as it often happens in such situations, a profound lack of empathy. Sound familiar, Kristen? Yeah. Is that the United States Senate? Is that literally anyone who's worth a billion dollars or more? This all seems pretty part and parcel with, I don't know, human history. This was Alexander Courage's last score for the series and also the last episode to have an original score composed for it. Michael
Michael Dunn's Career and Representation
00:13:21
Speaker
Dunn, who plays Alexander, the little person who was three foot six inches tall, he was originally considered for Spock, like he was in the running to play Spock.
00:13:29
Speaker
He was also in the running to play Baylock in the corporate maneuver, which wound up going to Clint Howard. He had a very interesting life, which you should read all about. He unfortunately passed away at the age of 38. He's a very intelligent man. He had a very high IQ. I know a lot of people don't put stock in IQ, but basically a very cultured kind of Plato figure in his own right, like a polymath kind of guy or Aristotle kind of thing, like, you know, cultured person acting here in a very nice role. Okay. The song that Leonard Nimoy sings to- I have questions about this and I'm glad, glad we're getting to it. It's called Maiden Wine.
00:14:08
Speaker
He composed it himself. You could hear it ah not only in this episode, but on his album, The Touch of Leonard Nimoy. Yeah, that was my question. I was i put i was going to put it in most of its time, saying they got they had to cut a single off this, didn't they? But on his album, I mean, like, you know, or put put the song out. Nowadays, I wouldn't bother. Right. According to Cushman, his label was agitating for Star Trek to do something so they could put something in the album. And then it just didn't work out. He released four albums, Kristen. He was on his fourth fucking album. These full length albums, though, are these just like fourths, four songs?
00:14:50
Speaker
Great point, not entirely sure. So this was not the one that we talked about when we talked about Catspaw. Nimoy i had an album coming out, but it was a second album that was more supposed to be him. The other one was like much more directly the songs of Mr. Spock or something. So this was just an included as a compilation on it folded into his new album. It wasn't written specifically for even those labels trying to get Star Trek to do a song that they could put on there. ah The reason why we know that Nimoy wrote this song and wrote it while on a break in Lake Arrowhead was because Star Trek fanzine called Leonard Nimoy's fanzine from 1968 had collection stories about him
00:15:34
Speaker
You can buy this on eBay, but ah it's 50 pages and it's a collection of stories. I don't know stories where they like Leonard Nimoy gets a call from one of his fans and like, what are you doing right now? And he's like Jeff Goldblum flirting with every woman. I don't know. I don't know. But it's like it's weird between the album and the acting and the and the fanzines, like everyone having the hots for Spock. He's like in the Jared Leto Jeff Goldblum. So it's really bizarre. Jared Leto. But I also think it was pretty badass that he wrote the song. Yeah. Letter Nimoy is a you know a man of many talents. Yes. some and Some other points here. The set decorator John Dwyer said he had $500 an episode to decorate the sets in the third season. So I did the inflation calculator thing, a great app to have when you're watching Mad Men. That's that's my big use for that. But that's the equivalent of $4,500 today.
00:16:34
Speaker
I'm actually rounding up everything is just foam and like, yes, cheap. Yeah. Fabric from like that they already had. Right. Yeah. That is not a lot of money in any time period. Just to give you a sense of the budget for Star Trek, how it was cut you know into the marrow. I mean. The sets look pretty good for that though. so then that's because That's because Paramount by now had bought Desilu. So now they were folded into the Paramount warehousing and all that stuff. So in this case, it actually, according to John Dwyer, it actually worked out really well.
00:17:10
Speaker
because paramount had swords and sandals type of stuff in their storage already so actually help with the budget quite a lot and then check out the cushman book this might like a recommendation only because i mean for this episode there's a lot of funny feedback from the science advisor and the standards and practice people like i said they didn't want viewers embarrassed to watch this And they didn't want NBC to broadcast something that suggested people would get a kick out of voyeurism or that people could be forced to have sex
Star Trek's Practical Effects and Budget Constraints
00:17:39
Speaker
against their will or or see a really nasty infection. That's why we never see. Yeah. Cut. They're like, we don't want anything gross. So you can't show the cut. Yeah. So they're really yucky. All right. Let's get into the grades. Great scenes.
00:17:55
Speaker
So I actually really enjoyed all of the practical effects of like shit flying everywhere. that That's like your classic bewitched practical effects. um And they even did that on if you watched WandaVision. on Disney Plus, some of the same people who learned from the people who did all those types of practical effects actually did the practical effects on that show. I enjoy that. I enjoy the little, oh, here's a little syringe that's going in. I mean, it looks hokey, but in a type of hokeyness that I enjoy. Yeah, and there's a lot of moments- Because you just don't see that anymore.
00:18:35
Speaker
Yeah. and And even like the chess playing and the, you know, when they're given their gifts and gifts, the phase was taken away. It all is very effective. Also is one of the reasons why the episode went over budget and was delayed. They had a lot of issues timing it out. It takes a lot of time to do that. And they were really trying to move very large objects. It looks like. um And yeah, but ah if you're trying to convey these people can move stuff with their mind, what's better than just having it moving around on fish fish line?
00:19:08
Speaker
And we've got that on top of one of my favorite things, especially with Star Trek, is people acting as though they're being moved against their will. Yeah. It's my favorite, the lurching and the pulling. It's like what they teach that and like improv, what, like week? It's yeah, it's three or something like it's fought like it is fun for a lot of actors. I don't know. Maybe not all. Uh, it's, it reminds me of True Blood. There's, I don't know, season four or something. There's like an ancient witch who comes back. I can't remember, but she's able to control the vampires and she's pulling them towards the church and they're doing the same kind of acting. And I remember watching that going like, Oh my God, this is an episode of Star Trek. Yeah.
00:19:53
Speaker
Oh, that's fantastic. ah I like the the teaser as ah as a great scene because it
Teaser's Thematic Setup and Key Conflicts
00:20:00
Speaker
sets up the entire episode. Like the conflict of it, what this one's going to be about, it's all right there in the teaser. Is it like high drama or anything? No, it's very kind of, oh, there's this gigantic shadow. Oh, no, but it's being generated by a small person. But the small person is very nice. And and oh, well, this is a kind of a weird medical issue that they're running into. But oh, these people have a secret. um But i I thought it was effective. I have a secret. And so I, of course, love the part when the ladies going into the whole spiel about how they did all the eugenics.
00:20:38
Speaker
And they have really long lifespans and he says, guess how old I am? Spock goes, 35. She's like, that old? I stopped aging at 30 and like look like feels her neck for like jowls and stuff. And he's got like Spock just dead pants, 35. And then she's like, it was fantastic. It is so great, just like the life went out of this woman. like She was just like. ah Barbara Babcock had been in Star Trek before she was in A Taste of Armageddon. And so this is our second episode. Very effective. that I think the casting really nailed. Oh, we need to get it some fuckface Platonians. They're all assholes. They're so good at it.
00:21:30
Speaker
That's the first scene coming back. All these scenes, by the way, I mentioned the the budget for the set deck, the production design. the The one of the reasons why in season three, all the scenes are like ridiculously long is also for budget reasons. It's like, can we keep them talking in one location for as long as possible and set this up so that we can block shoot it so quickly, do 12 pages or eight pages a day that it's not going to be ah an issue. We're not going to have overrun. while they're like setting up the practical effects yeah somewhere else or whatever. it just yeah I mean, Captain Kirk slapping himself in the face is a classic. I mean, I wouldn't say it's a great scene, quote unquote, but it's very effective.
00:22:13
Speaker
it's ah It's also the act out. that's what That's what makes me laugh. It's just like what an incredible ah image to go out on to commercial. um Also in that C-mail with the 35, you know, that starts with, them starts with they're all kind of waiting around to see if McCoy can heal Parman who's, you know, has a fever and all that stuff. And we see Alexander playing chess. with the other Platonians, and that is even setting up. That's setting up the and the class undercurrent. We watch Alexander having fun, but also struggling yeah to move his piece. Yeah, he has a pick up of giant pieces and the other idiots are doing it with their mind. And just when he thinks he's about to get ahead, the other guy just like,
00:22:54
Speaker
no and he just like literally leaps his piece over him with like no effort. And it's like, oh, you lose, sorry. And then they just walk away. And they're like, it's right there. I don't care how thuddingly obvious it is, give it to me. um What else do you have? The Platonians are bestowing gifts on Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. And they give McCoy the most worthless gift. It's ancient Greek like medical cures. They give Kirk the Shield of Pericles. They give Spock this, like, fancy lyre or whatever. And they give McCoy ah just a scroll that probably has, like, 50 extinct abortificants on it. Like, for real. Like, that was Greek medicine. It was just like, well, this one will get rid of, this one will make you have an abortion. Like, seriously, there are, like, plants that we don't have anymore that were used as abortificants or birth control or whatever.
00:23:54
Speaker
And that is probably, it's just a worthless list of like, well, have you tried bloodletting? Like it's worthless, like it for him. Like he looks at it and like, you him okay, but um yeah. She does try to spruce it up with like from Hippocrates himself. Yeah.
McCoy's Ancient Scroll and Alien Gifts
00:24:11
Speaker
it's say i mean like it just like Okay. it's a but Also, she calls them trifles, which is very funny. Here's some trivial bullshit that we should be, by the way, and museum that we probably raided from a museum on our way out of town. Here's some junk we've been trying to get rid of. We seem like we can hand it off on you. It's archaeological medicine.
00:24:31
Speaker
Nurse Chapel should love it. mccoy That's what McCoy intends to do with it. Yeah. We've listed 300 different abortificants. That's my McCoy, thank you. Not bad. Thanks. First time I tried doing it, okay. So, I don't know if okay i don't know if these are great scenes, but I do like Spock trying to cope with having emotions, and Kirk and McCoy trying to explain it to him. Like, it's usually good when you're considered healthy to let emotions out. But Spock's having a tough one with it. Well, that's because for Vulcans, it's about controlling your emotions or he says master. And so they force him to lose that. They take that control away from him. And so the health is restoring that control. That's what he's aiming to do. But you're just going to skip right over what caused that. You're not you're not into the first torture scene. I mean, I did put down them dancing around, but then it got a little weird. I think that was the point.
00:25:35
Speaker
but I mean, yeah, but it's like, I skipped to the the one I liked more, I guess, or one that felt more Star Trek. We well, this felt Star Trek. This felt like the comparisons. This one, we mentioned two mourns for Adonaius, but there are several other God intervention episodes. Gamesters of Triskelion was like the closest I could find to being closest to this. And, you know, and all of them there, you know, sometimes the crews being tortured, sometimes they're not this or that. You know, obviously the mind is so powerful for this being it can control the enterprise, blah, blah, blah. This is the first time with that Spock scene.
00:26:15
Speaker
in this episode where they do take it to such an extreme that even though alexander like usually another thing is there's some other character that's soaking up the pain with them so that we have like someone to root for and that's happening here for sure but the point is is like It's happening deeply to our characters as much, you know, Alexander has been enduring this for so long, but here we're seeing it's revealing how evil these people are, these beings are. The other beings have like these weird reasons and the game serves, it's like for gambling. At Nyas it's because he needs the adulation and worship, like that's part of the thing.
00:26:53
Speaker
ah where no man has gone before. We learned Gary Mitchell's an asshole, but he's also trying to, like, this is an ex extension of like, oh, I've always been an asshole. Now I can be more of one. But it's very personal. Here, it's like an impersonal degree of cruelty. Like, they're so bored and lazy that this is what they do for fun. And the fact that it pushes Kirk and Spock beyond anything we've ever seen before is what stands out to me as like, that's
Intense Scenes and Character Limits
00:27:23
Speaker
incredible. Like it's a great scene because we're in the third season of Star Trek and yes, we've seen this idea in some version before, but we've never seen it like this.
00:27:32
Speaker
And it's like you have people committing to some truly heinous stuff when you just yeah sit there and watch. it And it starts with them just being pulled into the room, though. I love it. Oh, can I just say one more thing? Because I wrote this and I forgot to mention it. When when the objects are flying through the air, because that precedes the torture. Nimoy is so fucking cool. Get the way he snatches that liar out of the air. He's just like not even breaking his his concentration, his his locked eyes on them. ah It's just he's so cool. So yeah ah during most of the episode, like up through at least through that part up until the torture, he just got his like arms folded. He's like, I just don't I just want to get the fuck out of here. Like they're very aware right away. Yeah. Once Carmen has only going from this fucking middle age tag.
00:28:22
Speaker
Get me out of here. Well, also, Parmen had his delirium tantrum that like almost kills Alexander and it it disrupts the enterprise. And Spock is taking the history of Star Trek episodes. That point is being like, yeah, I just want to get out of here. but So they're like, we got to go. This is not going to work out well. um But I mean, leave the guy to die. The humiliations, you've got Kirk and Spock calling, you know, Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum dancing around each other. The audacity of these fuckers saying, we've had enough of your moralizing. you know that They're trying to like t talk down, like how dare you? Then Spock dancing around Kirk, booping him on the nose with his boot. He's laughing and then Spock and then McCoy's like, stop it. that's Vulcans aren't supposed to express emotion and they they they don't heed that. They go, well, he can't die laughing then and turn into crying. And then Kirk is turned into a horsey.
00:29:21
Speaker
and Alexander protests and he's forced to write him and it's just it's disgusting it's upsetting and you immediately feel how our characters feel this episode to me does one of the our characters it's not like next generation it's not like a lot of original series episodes where they're kind of outside of something that's happening and they're just trying to like deal with the problem like uh you know for the let that be your last battlefield they're on the outside of that racial conflict right looking in And here, they're directly in it, and we feel ah as they're feeling. When Spock and Kirk and McCoy are all saying, we fucking hate these guys, I fucking hate them too. I hate them. You know, I i want Parma to get what's coming to him, and I think that's the trick of the episode. Also, I think it, you know, in that scene where, so like you were saying, where Spock is talking talking through his issues and gets everyone to admit that they are angry and hate these guys,
00:30:19
Speaker
Alexander's explaining what's going on, and that's how they find out that this element, kyranide, could be the equalizer. But basically the way it's set up, these fuckers got lucky. There's nothing special about them. They just came to this place and they were- And ran out of food and started eating the local food. Yeah. and And suddenly they have these powers, again, and more commentary. But I love them that Alexander refuses to take the kyronide because Kirk's like, well, of course I'm going to weaponize this. Yeah, well of course. But you know then Alexander being the moral center is like, I don't want to be like them. You know, ah you know, and so.
00:30:58
Speaker
Then then that leads to her and chapel beaming down. And I don't know, I think most of that last act, which is the last scene, is is pretty great. So I'm putting it in here as a great scene, but I do have the ending kind of drift into some trek jokes. What did you think about that last long scene, Spock singing? the great I was like, oh, it's just some weird sex stuff. Yes. Like, they're so bored. They're like, let's just like, have this little play or two and watch. And it's like very weird, because that's gross. Like, people yeah having sex with each other against their will is really gross. And it's yeah, it's like these guys really fucking suck. Like, you just want them all to die.
00:31:48
Speaker
And ah to the idea of like, well, we've already seen this, it's just more and more and more of the same. I mean. The tension of the scene, as it's the intention as I see it is, ah you know they're trying to see if this plan of theirs works. Obviously, we've watched television. We know Star Trek is going to be on every week. It's going to eventually work. So you've got that there. But then while they're waiting for that to happen, they put Spock through one last humiliation to set in our mind dramatically the possibility of they're not just going to Star Trek their way out of this.
00:32:22
Speaker
like if like They're trying to plant the seed that this actually has now gone even farther than it did before because they've now involved more people. They're being forced to do even you know more outlandish things against their will. They're trying to plant the seed in the audience's mind of like, when Alexander grabs that knife, surely Kirk and Spock are like, yeah, go for it, man. yeah Yeah, go for it. And and, you know, Star Trek, so that doesn't happen. But I think to the anyone that's saying like, there's just too much of it. The reason why it's here in this last act is for that express purpose of how much of these people been broken down?
00:33:00
Speaker
Um, and you know, Alexander at the end is almost like, that's the question it's reflected in Alexander wanting to kill them. And then Kirk reminding him, you don't want to be like them, right? And that's what they do, how they punish people. But also Kirk is just like, you know, killing for rent, just steal murder where we're from. So.
00:33:21
Speaker
Oh yeah, no, that's a... The ending. So that's why, you know, you know and we're cops, kind of, so we can't do it. An absolutely unsatisfactory ending yeah to the episode, for sure.
Alexander's Departure and Historical Significance
00:33:34
Speaker
I mean, I'm happy they took Alexander with them. Yes, as they said they would, yes. But you know, sometimes they like, you know, someone has to come and they're like, no. Right. But I also the the writing of that ending is how they reward him is it's ridiculous. well I'm going to definitely mention that in a second. But I want to mention this last scene. It's it's pretty great, I think, but also it's not in some ways. But also in this way, it's a historical footnote. We did not forget listener. This episode for a long time was trumpeted as this is how I learned it. This is the first interracial kiss on television.
00:34:14
Speaker
And of course, there are a lot of ah people who you know have rightly pointed out that it's not the first interracial kiss on television. or at least 10 years prior, you know, interracial is like ah a white person with a non-white person. This was one of the first times where a black person and a white person kissed. And it might've been like the second time. And the first time was like literally the week before when Sammy Davis Jr. um and Nancy Sinatra on a live TV show, he just like walked on stage and they were doing something and he just kissed her on the cheek like, cause they know each other and they were saying hi.
00:34:52
Speaker
So it's like, you know what I mean? Like an unplanned, unscripted thing, intentional. Like I was a family friend, not romantic. Exactly. But I mean, there's been a lot of people who've done the research to break down this line because people don't like Shatner and he's at the middle of this. So it's good. They've done the research because of spite. And I, I approve of spite. I think that's a good way to live life. So that's, I mean, think about it. It keeps you alive. It keeps you honest. so ah so for some people. But I have a Gene Rundberry quote about the the kiss. and By the way, I just want to mention about the kiss.
00:35:29
Speaker
this I didn't need that scene. By the time I watched that in lockdown, I was like, this is true to both characters, because as i've we've said before, if anyone has Kirk's back, it's Ohura. That is her boy. They are right or die for each other. So they're in that moment, and they're being made to do something they don't want to do. And I believe even they're saying things they don't want to be saying. Like, I think it's a whole dramatic moment that the Platonians are making them go through. Anyway. Nevertheless, Gene Roddenberry, souring the moment as he's so good at doing. Gene Roddenberry later said, Captain Kirk and Lieutenant O'Hara's kiss was an integral part of the storyline, and it never occurred to me to question whether Kirk should kiss a black person or not. I had, by that time, achieved a certain clarity about those things. As a matter of fact, long before Captain Kirk kissed Lieutenant O'Hara, I kissed her many times. Jesus Christ.
00:36:29
Speaker
Fred Freiberger was a very big proponent of this. He wanted to break the barrier. He thought Star Trek was an excellent tool of you know helping him push the you know the moral and social goals that he had in mind, obviously a POW. This was a forward thinking guy ah in some ways, and he he was a television producer. So he was as liberal as they could get. And he was like, well, I have the the opportunity. I'm going to take it. So he put that in there. My question for you, Kristen, now that we've kind of talked through the scene, Falana, the woman, Barbara Babcock, the blonde, she's such a perv. All the cutaways to her, the whole episode, all the cutaways, the reactions, Alexander, it like watching in pain, Parman looking like quizzically and all that stuff. And then every time they cut to her, but especially during this scene, she's like biting her nail and all that stuff. I'm like, what do you think? Did she climax?
00:37:24
Speaker
No, if you look like she looked like she was there and then she like very quickly snaps and she's like, OK, let's move on. She like it like builds up and then she's like, OK, let's go. I'm going to say no. OK.
00:37:41
Speaker
I think that, like, with their mind powers, she can somehow, like, give herself clitoral stimulation while not touching herself. I just figured she was doing it while her legs were crossed. Okay. I'm going to say no. I think that woman has not had an orgasm in, like, a thousand years. Not apartments her husband, which, for some reason, they got married. Why why get married when there's only, like, 38 of you? They seem like they barely can stand each other. They have no chemistry. No, she seems real concerned when he's like at death's door. I mean, like, yes. Why are you over there talking to Spock? Like your beloved husband is supposed to impress them with her age. Guess how old I am.
00:38:21
Speaker
35. So the end of the scene is the end of the episode, but the end of the the sequence, I guess, the tension is when Kirk's finally able to channel the energy and he's able to stop Alexander from stabbing him, running himself through. And Parman goes, who did that? And then Shatner's stupid face is granted. He throws the whip down and he goes, I did is so great. It's not even triumphant. It's just me.
Pacing, Sequence, and Cultural Emulation
00:38:50
Speaker
That's right. It's so goofy, but it works perfectly. So I don't there's not like actual scenes, there's like slivers, there's moments, you know, parts of scenes throughout the episode, but they're all very long sequences. um Anyway, best trek tropes. An alien civilization tries to emulate one very specific part of
00:39:13
Speaker
Earth culture. Yes. And f**ks it up big time. Better than Nazi Germany. Yeah. When they did that. Well, the like the gangsters and the, you know. Yes. All that kind of stuff. it's yeah That's right. they're in the The gladiator television.
00:39:33
Speaker
That's a great one. ah Alien mind control ah is usually I don't know, it's kind of an iffy. I think it's great because it really reveals the depth of how monstrous they are. You know, every other time it's like an exercise of their power or their anger. But this is not just anger. This is like this is really sick shit. that's Yeah, like really dark. So I kind of really liked it. I have, oops, our mass eugenics program may have had some unintended consequences. There's only 38 of us. That's right. We can't get a paper cut. We are the, what, the Habsburgs we can't get. It wasn't the Habsburgs, it was Queen Victoria, right? Okay, I just- For lying, of all the hemophiliacs. I'll have to look through. I'm sure there's some Habsburg blood in there somewhere.
00:40:27
Speaker
Along the same lines of mind, the Enterprise, and along what you said, the Enterprise meets God, and God is an asshole. Yeah. That's a pretty Star Trek one. Infinite too. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Shaking on the bridge. You know it's serious. That was good. Yes, so that's a great one. I don't know why I didn't put that. I was so unconcerned with what was going on in the enterprise. I think that's what like at least we got to see like, ah you know, on the ship a couple of times. um So also, and this one has come up. This is pretty specific to the original series. series The Underling starts to turn on the bad guys. Oh, yeah. Like he's like, wait a minute. I've been treated very poorly here. Yep.
00:41:08
Speaker
Fuck you guys. It happened in Casper and it's happened a few times. Yeah. Catspaw, that's another one that gets name checked when people saying it's similar to this one. I'm like, but Catspaw was a lot more about the the battle between their two ideologies. Yeah. It wasn't quite as turned on the enterprise. I mean, they were making threats, obviously, but they were kind of more concerned with their own issues. And here they're much more like, we don't have any issues. We just want to do what we're doing. And it's really, yeah, gross.
00:41:42
Speaker
Uh, infinite diversity and infinite combinations. Itic, uh, in this case reflected in Kirk's line to Alexander, Alexander, where I come from size, shape, or color makes no difference. It's pretty classic. The line must be drawn here. Well, you can say that later. I will. Don't worry.
00:42:05
Speaker
I thought the captain's log was good because I don't know. I just thought it was well written and it set it up, although it still can. The one where he's saying when they when we come back from the credits and he in case you missed the opening sequence, folks, this is what's going on. um where But it makes it very clear, like these strange, a strange group of people when their planet, Nova and millennia ago, they transported themselves to Earth during the time of Socrates and Plato. after the death of the Greek civilization they idolized, they came to this planet and created for themselves a utopia patterned after it. ah But then again, when did Kirk have time to record this? So that's- Well, they were waiting around a long time. Yeah. There was some downtime yeah for the fever to break. So I'm going to cut it some slack. Yeah. This time only.
00:42:56
Speaker
Any other ones? No. Okay. We're strektropes. So this is ah perhaps maybe I should not have put it in worst. Maybe it's like middle of the road trip ah trope. Let's keep a crew member of the Enterprise captive on our planet and he'll eventually be fine with it. This one. of This is like and in this case, it's the doctor like he's going to really treat your your paper cut after you did all this. Right. And also when they're, I mean, not not to say that it's worse, but when they're explaining, well, you'll get used to it down here. It's great. You can meditate all you want or do research like ah read books like it sounds so fucking boring. Yeah. Like that is not enough.
00:43:47
Speaker
that's to Keep someone especially someone like McCoy who probably wants to like actually be a clinician and treat people instead of like oh No, somebody got a UTI, right or whatever, you know, they have help So yeah, it's just it honestly sounds like such a boring civilization basically a bunch of ah philosophy students have asked the doctor to give them free health care. So yeah, it's a real bummer. I don't know if that's a worse trick trope, but I guess a flimsy villain plan that is only possible because they have such immense power. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That yeah, I'll put it under there instead because
00:44:31
Speaker
yeah um It's one that I think about of like these are the leaps I prefer Star Trek attempts when you are setting up an interesting dilemma or dramatic situation. The dilemma is in less how are ah how are we going to get out of the situation and more? How are we going to deal with the situation? which is an interesting, you know, the how we get out of it is always there. But like these, this is such an extreme circumstance for being forced to watch, you know, in chain of command when Picard's being tortured. We are as helpless as he is in that situation, because we're just we're kind of expecting that the enterprise is going to save him or something's going to happen. But he can't get out of that. And here it's kind of like, well, nobody's coming to help them. How are they going to get out of it? um
00:45:17
Speaker
I just thought it was an interesting dilemma there that only the power explains away because you're right. It's like even if he agrees, he's going to have the in the back of his mind ah this whole time. Like they really put the people I care about through hell to get me to make this decision. He's always going to resent them. You don't think he's just, I mean, poison them. right like Any other ones? Yeah. So. Okay, and this is actually more of a question. I mean, would all the mind powers really work just as effectively on Spock as everyone else?
Spock's Health and Vulcan Norms
00:45:54
Speaker
Or... I don't know. Seems like it would... it There should have been some minor difference. But nevertheless, the... If Spock has an emotion, he'll die! I mean, that's a little heavy-handed, but...
00:46:09
Speaker
Well, I've read it as because when he's singing to O'Hara in chapel, they're upset because they understand how painful this is for Spock. I kind of just read it more like McCoy was trying at like he loves Spock and he's like, you are really doing the one thing that like you can't do this. This is the worst thing you could do to him. How dare you? Yeah, exactly. Stop it. That's all he does the whole time. Stop it. Stop it. And okay I also have um let's get the ladies from the enterprise down here solely for entertainment purposes. Sure. Yeah. um That's, of course, not the crew didn't do that. They're doing it against their will. But I know. I mean, that goes all the way back to the cage, the women. Yeah. When they get down. And my last one is now you guys don't do any of this again. Oh, that's right. Yes.
00:47:03
Speaker
We have no way of knowing, but if we hear tell of this, obviously we can come back down here and have the mind powers again. and so The West Wing ending. You're very good at making speeches, Parmen. Just make sure this one sinks in. Yeah, that ought to do it, Captain Kirk. Thanks a lot. I've really learned my lesson. Yeah, I'm putting this as a worst trick trope because ah it's it's for the original series mainly, and I actually had it for most of its time. But I have to move it up here. You know how most episodes of the original series, they try to end on a joke. Sometimes it's a pun. Yeah, I mean, it is both of its time, too. But here it's really it's really bad where it's like when Alexander comes in and they're like, I've got a little surprise that we're yeah i'm like, no, thank you.
00:47:52
Speaker
But the other one I had for where Strictrope was. So this is a bad example of ah of the pun joke ending. It was like an actually offensive. ah But um the the enterprise being so easily taken over or controlled by a powerful mind. Yeah. Like just to put take it out of the picture. I mean, the I mean, how deep you want to get into it and you want to get back to the planet? Fine. But like the enterprise breaks orbit. And oh, and guess what? Remember when we couldn't find we didn't detect any life signs? before, like they say in the episode, like, well, we can't now and we can't beam anybody down. You could have just said that. You didn't have to do this. It doesn't matter. I just was like, this episode copies so many things. I'm like, you could have changed one element to this set up, but they didn't do that. So some guy really did just look at Recolume for our, who mourns for Adanias. And he's like, yeah, I can. That's a good skeleton. So anyway, any other ones? No. Most of its time quality.
00:48:51
Speaker
So the costumes, man, I mean. This stuff was wild. I mean, the lady is wearing like a see through. Like toga thing. And like, I mean, is she even wearing a bra? I mean, I think she is, but like it's cut out on the side and everything. I don't know. Classic one wear ties. Yeah, the sides out. the I mean, just this the ancient Greece sect of design and Alexander writing Kirk like he's a horse or a donkey.
Cultural Representation and Diversity in Star Trek
00:49:27
Speaker
um You obviously would not see that today. That's true. Because it is offensive.
00:49:35
Speaker
Yeah. The kiss, obviously, the network was so worried they'd lose the South, just the South as a as a as an affiliate network for their state out. Yeah. ah vari Variety's TV critic at the time had a review that really goes to show how little human brains have changed in a mass media system in the last. 60 years because we're we're basically phrasing everything the same way just changing the nouns out when it's controversial so like they almost blew the south not to mention certain other sectors on star trek late in the running of a rather bad show william shatner kisses the shell nickels kisses aren't new to tv but bussin which the notes have to say is kissing but bussin of a negro doll by a white man is
00:50:26
Speaker
However, before the bigots rush into dam or the liberals to praise, it should be pointed out there was quite a cop-out in the Meyer-Dolinski script, as the starship commander Shatner most reluctantly smooches Miss Nichols, a beautiful femme, and only because he is compelled to two by the villain's evil powers. This neat little compromise acquits Shatner of crossing the line because he has no control of his senses, the scripture is saying in effect, nor is Miss Nichols to be blamed because she too is under the spell of the diabolical heavy. They both struggle valiantly against it in what is an unintentionally hilarious scene, but they lose out to the script." So what are you talking about? Oh my god, I was just reminded how much I fucking despise old-timey variety writing. Oh my god. They've thankfully toned it down in modern times. They've toned it down.
00:51:20
Speaker
Yeah, it still exists, but not to not to that extent. And even in the last 10 or 12 years, it's it's gotten much flatter. You know, it's very recently, I mean, yeah. Yeah. It's like. If you read a headline from like, a I don't know, yeah, like 30, 40 year old variety article out of context, you would have what that you wouldn't know what that it was talking about because it uses so many like not code words but whatever like it has its own language and you have to know what that is and it's so annoying like they don't want you to know they might as well have been talking about our a cattle auction like I have no fucking clue that's that's you what that's a great way to say it but the tone of it is like that coked out guy in diehard who tries to negotiate
00:52:06
Speaker
I've never seen Die Hard, so I can't. No, you've never seen Die Hard. That's fine. I've only seen it once. I know. We're sacrilege to a lot of people here. Yeah, I know. It's your favorite Christmas movie. You don't need to write in about it. OK, everyone. Die Hard is a good movie. It's a great movie. It's weird. Just again, because I'm more TV than movies, the first Die Hard movie I saw was Die Hard with the Vengeance in the theaters. And I love that. Oh, yeah, I saw that. I saw that. I love that movie. Anyway, I like that. Yeah. Also, and TV Guide, they had the letter to the editor column. And of course, someone wrote in Star Trek went just a little too far with that episode. and So I guess it's not even most of its time. I'm like this. This is if ki if Kirk had kissed a trans person, that would have, you know, it would have been the same. It was the same reaction. Yeah. I mean, although. If. Because on current day, Star Trek.
00:53:05
Speaker
It's not like gender isn't as binary. So I think like if Captain Pike kisses a trans person, I don't think anyone's gonna ride into TV Guide, do you think? Or like go on a... You know, there was a canceling my paramount or like JK Rowling is going to get enough f***ing tizzy or some shit. Well, they wouldn't have the courage to even have Captain Pike kiss a trans person anyway. So it's kind of not it's beside the point. They had a trans actor playing a binary person. and Excuse me, a.
00:53:40
Speaker
non-binary person in an episode from season one who only was there to kind of like walk Spock through his Vulcan human battle and then was revealed to be a villain and turned into this mustache twirling nothing non-entity. And there was there were there were the usual trolls who who popped up and said, I don't think trans people should exist, but I'm not saying it that way. I'm not saying that specifically. Just everything I everything I'm saying means that. But like that was the extent of it. But because that character didn't like measurably, meaningfully do anything ah to, you know, it wasn't front and center. Like Fred Freiberger was trying to say, this is the one where Kirk kisses Ohura. I want people I want races to be pissed off by it. You know, he's trying to trigger some cons here. Yeah. If Star Trek tried to do that today, it would have the same exact reaction as it had back in the 60s. So.
00:54:36
Speaker
I don't think anyone's gonna actually write into like TV Guide though. No. Or whatever they want. They might boycott Paramount Plus, which is why they wouldn't do it. They just wouldn't do it. It's not something that they're... They're not gonna boycott Paramount Plus because how else are they gonna watch Blue Bloods? Okay. How else are they gonna get their NCIS? That's right. Send the kings down or whatever. Yeah. But like, no Star Trek's not gonna take any risks like that ever again. It just, it never will. So it doesn't really matter. It's sad. Yeah. The very obvious dancer standing in for Nimoy while he was tapping around. Just like, I mean, you would do that today too. Sure. Just the lack of matching. He looked more like Zahn from the motion picture. He didn't even look like he was wearing the same shoes. No, it was the very soft shoes. He shows up like, gotta wear these shoes. He's like, no, I wear dancing shoes.
00:55:30
Speaker
I should have put this in ah in a trek trope. Maybe this is a worse trek trope, but reciting shake Shakespeare. oh But between Shakespeare references and ah references to Plato and Ancient Greece in a primetime television show, that is unheard of today. You would not see that at all. I would venture to guess that like There's three hundred and thirty three million Americans that maybe five thousand Americans know who any of those things are. So no, they still teach that school, don't they? I like rounding down to being as derogatory as possible because it's just the idea the idea that it would somehow make it survive all the network notes and the the the room notes to make it. They probably mentioned it on the the um reboot of Frasier.
00:56:21
Speaker
You don't think they mentioned any Greek stuff? I haven't watched it. um Because now it seems like Greece only comes up for, like, Mykonos. You know what I mean? Well, there was a very popular, like, best-selling novel called Song of Achilles, which is, like, a novelization of the story of like Achilles. which is So I think some people Young people know what that is. I think I feel like I mentioned this when we did. Although, as we as we've discussed before, the Trojan War, that's fake. Yes. Well, I was going to say, I think when we talked about bread and circuses, we talked about, like, is the Roman Empire still like a thing in pop culture? Like, that gets discussed at all? Unclear. Probably not. So it's kind of the same thing. That was a whole TikTok thing.
00:57:12
Speaker
Okay, so this this is the perfect way segue into, I couldn't figure out a way to do that. Doesn't that Barbara Babcock, the Felina woman, doesn't she look like that woman who went viral for like, I always look in the mirror and I look down at myself, but then I realized that i am I embody my entire culture and then just showed all these like images of European sculptures and all that stuff. but i have I know what you're talking about. The image of that woman has gone out of my mind, so I can't tell you. Oh, okay. She was just some plain looking broad, right? My misremembering. She was in check. I some shit. She looks fine. It was like fishing for, oh, you're hot. like It was a fishing expedition. Yeah, and she was just looking at it.
00:57:59
Speaker
anytime you get into like European culture, it's always it always feels like you're never more than like half ah a foot away from like up there's there's some neo
Hopeful Vision of Equality and Unity
00:58:09
Speaker
nazi shit going on. I know. So it's tricky. I'm not casting aspersions on this person. I'm just saying that idea that this woman looked like all of those. but The woman in this episode looked a lot like all that stuff. So yeah. um Can I OK, a couple more for most of its time. Spock singing and an and and the song ending up on an album. Yeah. That happens today, though. I mean, not for like, I don't know. That was a very. um
00:58:37
Speaker
Like quick song to, you know. OK, fair enough. But like, you yeah, I think that. The day is where like the TV star just releases a bunch of albums. Well, Glee, that's what happened. American Idol, that's where that happened. Well, American Idol is a singing competition show. Sure. And then Glee. Okay, Glee is a jukebox musical show ah starring like musical theater people for the most part. Okay, most of it's Simon How Unusual it was. It seems like it's pretty common now. Like even in Stranger Worlds, two of the actors have albums. Yeah, Leonard Nimoy and Ricky Nelson, right? Okay. And I also have Uhura's nails are on point in this episode. I mean, they always are, but
00:59:27
Speaker
I I will deny it when she appeared. I was like, what a smoke show. What a beautiful woman. I mean, poor Rachel Barrett looked like she didn't know where she was. She was fine. She like she booms. They beam her down. She's just like like. Well, because they're trying to talk and they can't. So I know it's just. Yeah, yeah she didn't know where she was. And then the most of its time is like For me, the last one is Kirk or actually Shatner comes off very condescending towards Alexander. It's like Kirk is leaning into Shatner's leaning into like, I'm the good guy, because look how I'm treating this little person. It's like it's breaking the fourth wall and ah in a really weird way. It's also kind of weird just how Spock and McCoy, they kind of talk to him like he's a child.
01:00:24
Speaker
Like Spock does a couple of times, you're like, very good, Alexander. Yes, Alexander. That's correct. It's like. I didn't think it was that bad. It's there that like there's no sensitivity towards that. You know, it it's more of its time. It's not as infantile. I can never pronounce that word. Infantilizing. Yeah. As. Genre is. Even I would say today, people treat little people on screen or not even on the screen, just out and about. You're saying it's no different than how it is today? I mean, I think it for the time, it's like no worse. I also think just using his size as any sort of like with the shadow at the beginning and then the joke at the end, you know, I think that's very much of its time now. We could say if they made this episode 20 years ago, they might have still done the exact same things and then they would have right it with mass media. Social media would have been called out on it at some point and it would have changed. We wouldn't do that now. So.
01:01:23
Speaker
Now it's time for the line must be drawn here. Great lines. Where you come from, are there a lot of people without the power in my size? Alexander, where I come from, size, shape, or color makes no difference. I um i appreciate the um you know idealized version of the future that Star Trek tries to portray. Well, you know what that line really means, especially in the context of this episode. So it this episode really does distill down the essence of Star Trek. It's hope that's it just gives us hope like they're in a hopeless situation. And yet Kirk just gave a starving person a piece like a piece of hope. Alexander just lived there. He just thought this was his lot in life. And suddenly these strangers come in. They tell him that something else is possible. It's incredible.
01:02:11
Speaker
um So when they're handing out the gifts... Wait, what's the lady's character name? Like, I feel like they only called it one. I thought it was Falana? I don't know. Whatever. The bitch who's 35, at least. Okay. So she says, to our silent and cerebral Mr. Spock, this... what Whatever. This fucking instrument, whatever. To pluck music to soothe his ever active brow. She was trying to... land one on him. But no, no, he wasn't having it. She tried it. She tried it with him. Yep. And no, she was like, I think I'm 35. I liked Spock's line. Dr. McCoy, you may yet cure the common cold that that was a nice ah compliment. He gave him very nice.
01:03:02
Speaker
I'm Tweedle Dee, he's Tweedle Dum, two spacemen marching to a drum. We slide among the mimsy toves and gyre among the borogoves. Um, so when McCoy tells Spock that, you know, it's considered healthy to release emotions, Spock says, that may be doctor, however, I have noted that the healthy release of emotion is frequently unhealthy for those closest to you. and um the coup de grace. For so long, I've wanted to be close to you. And now I just want to crawl away and die.
01:03:41
Speaker
oh
01:03:44
Speaker
Chapel bringing the heat. Yeah. Like if only these people weren't watching. That's right. That's the best thing. It's like they're they would be down for it if you know, these people weren't there. Yep. And like, you know. I am not afraid. Kirk, you're half dead, all of you. You've been dead for centuries. We may disappear tomorrow, but at least we're living now. And you can't stay on that, can you? You're half crazy because there's nothing inside, nothing. And you have to torture us to convince yourselves you're superior. Yeah, Kirk. Yeah.
01:04:20
Speaker
Alexander, despite your brains, you're the most contemptible things that ever lived in the universe. It's great. Just love it. Parmen. And you're right, none of us can be trusted. Uncontrolled, power will turn even saints into savages. We can all be counted on to live down to our lowest impulses. Now that's the pitch, and I think it's good that the lines in here, the fact that it's coming out of Parmen's mouth at the end of the episode when at best the detente has been reached. or just a momentary pause in the fighting. It turns the end into an after school special yeah about if you get too powerful, don't abuse those who don't have the power. And if if you get out of line, the police will stick their finger into your arm and tell you to do better. That's yeah. That's why you.
01:05:14
Speaker
But I mean, if we think about it it, it does seem like a pretty common thing. It's just it's just human. Unfortunately, it's our stupid brains, you know, when we have when our needs are met and we want for nothing and everyone does things for us and we run out of areas of our lives to explore where there's no threat of losing anything. We do become these just like I don't know how long it takes to turn into being vindictive, but you know there's some people that that's their that's how they get things to anything in life is by treating the people around them awful awfully. Now, that if they were to redo this episode today, I just realized you would have to change it around to like the borderline personality or the sociopathic people. like That's where you would focus on. Here, they're trying to like approach this idea of if you get too powerful, you'll abuse that power.
01:06:08
Speaker
but Today, it's more like there are just some real cruel people in the world. Yeah. ah Real big faces. Yeah. And we might know why, but how do we deal with them? The Anton Caridian Award for Best Performance. um I think Alexander did really well. Yeah, Michael Dunn is Alexander's who I have. I kind of really did want to give it to the whole cast, though, because I really thought everyone did a great job. But it has to be Michael Dunn. I was watching this with my wife and and she was she was reading all about him. She was so taken by his performance and his presence.
William Shatner on 'Plato's Stepchildren'
01:06:41
Speaker
The Shatner. Can we give it to the whole episode? Or can we give it maybe just to like for the practical effects? I put Shatner. OK.
01:06:53
Speaker
Shatner's quoted in the Cushman book as saying, I remember thinking, I hope what I'm doing, trying to appear like a horse and not some idiot, is going to ah really appear like a horse and not like a horse's ass. It required courage to go out and do that and to let yourself be free enough to travel the narrow edge between laughter and lucidity. Yeah, I could never. I mean, I'd be like... um So I signed up for a show called Star Trek and you want me to get on the floor and be a horse and let a little person ride me. Yeah. Oh, and ah prior to that, I had slapped myself. so Yeah, that's great, though. Should be a great episode for people who hate William Shatner. Oh, yeah. But he really went for it. What part of this will he teach at Starfleet Academy? Never ah like consider the possibility.
01:07:48
Speaker
that maybe the aliens are into some weird sex stuff.
01:07:54
Speaker
That might be where this peril is headed.
01:07:59
Speaker
I go, Oh, that's a wet end. They would never do that today. They would never. that it You would think in a show set like if this were on the magicians, let's say like ah Henry Alonzo Meyer's previous show, I'm almost certain they've when they've been like in a similar vaguely similar situation, they're like, are we going to have to fuck our way out of the situation? Or, you know, like they brought it in as like, this could be a sex issue that we have to deal with. They would never do that in strange worlds. It would never occur to them to do that. Am I going to have to f**k myself out of this ah situation? It's a great Star Trek trope. Yes. One of the best. i mean This one is is very like way more sinister. so i i mean Oh yeah, this one's much better. It would be great if strange new Strange New Worlds for their next big swings. It's a sex swing. It's it's a it's a swingers party. the Big swingers. Man and the Riddler are there.
01:08:58
Speaker
Oh, we're folded our whole track very kill season in here. That's great. He's Batman. That's right. that That's right, old chum. but He does have that saddle in his. That's true. Yeah, that's true. I don't think we've seen the crew tortured this intensely ever again. Yeah, I guess i hope card the card being stripped naked and tortured is actually pretty rough in Chain of Command. But this is such a collective. I don't know, Brian, like it's like a molar. Yes. Yeah. But all that happens in like a quick sequence. And here it's like it's two acts like this. It's really intense.
01:09:47
Speaker
I'm going to say Kieranide plus the right planet equals psychokinetic or godlike abilities. Seems like an important chemistry note. They should probably mark flag this planet as like a do not enter. Put a buoy out there. Yeah. Yeah. or just torpedo them from orbit. Yeah, for real. Oh, no, we're back on the ship. Yep. That was the only thing I was thinking. I'm like, how does this actually end without them doing that? And it's like, oh, well, Kirk and Spock still have the power so they can counter until they get far enough away. That that makes sense. All right. All right. ah The other one was the ancient aliens history. So who more and so had Nias people have mentioned compared to this one? Well, that one says like, well, the Greek gods were real, but they were aliens.
01:10:35
Speaker
Uh, and then Strange New Worlds has lanthanides, you know, they have, you know, engineer police people. Next Generation gave us the El Aurians, which is guidance species. Uh, and they've been to earth before the original series had the observers and then these fuckos. So there would be some sort of like our first contact with Vulcans was not the first time aliens had contacted earth. It's basically, could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better? I mean, I guess it could have been and I don't, I'm going to say no. It could, I mean, yes, it could have been hornier, I guess, but like it's so sinister. I don't think it would have made it better. I really read Philana's reactions as she was getting off on all of this, not just the force and the kissing. I know, but like, well, yes, they did it for their own amusement. But she was like horny for Spock and then just horny to see them in Georgia. Yeah, but like, I mean, could it have been hornier? Sure, maybe.
01:11:31
Speaker
Maybe I thought this one was perfectly horny because it was basically, you know, she's basically Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct. So just kidding. Her kicks are from watching, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. Trek, marry or kill, Plato's stepchildren. OK, I mean, I can't I don't think I can kill this episode because. It is saying a lot. Let's get that you want to. No. Oh, okay. I'm saying like, it's uncomfortable to watch, but that doesn't mean like, you should kill it. Like, I think at first glance, it's like, Oh, this is just very, very silly, but that's not really what it is. So i know what are you thinking?
01:12:15
Speaker
My thought was this is season three of the show. And so many times we've talked about how hard Star Trek is to write. And I swear if I could write an episode of Star Trek, it would be pretty close to this one. Really? because I mean, obviously the one you want to go to is like the space battles and the Kirk's bluff and all that stuff. But if you were just like, we have no money to make an episode and we have to do just the morality, ethical dilemma episodes for the most part. This is this is telling a story that resonates immediately with the audiences and amazingly because they're Platonians.
01:12:53
Speaker
your followers of Plato, like they're dealing with stuff in the past, they're dealing with stuff in the present, and they're actually just communicating that this could go on and on forever, into the future. The world we're living in now, I look him at income inequality, I cannot escape the profundity of this episode, and I know it's kind of ham-handed and how it goes about it. I really wanna to give it a marry, but I think because the ending is such such a cop-out almost, like it sucks. Yeah. the The good news is that it ends quickly. Like what? like It's not like like you're catching your breath or you're like, oh, and then like, oh, that's the ending. OK, but it doesn't drag it out too much. I guess I'm going to say it's the strongest possible trek just close to the marry. I mean, I know. Yeah, I can't I don't think I can marry this episode, but um yeah, I'll give it a trek.
01:13:43
Speaker
I mean I'm not like a fan of torture. I don't watch like torture porn things or anything like that. What I do appreciate is that I've been through so many adventures with these characters that I really cared what was happening
Emotional Depth and Character Relationships
01:13:56
Speaker
to them. You know what I mean? I wasn't like falling outside of it. uh because it's oh it's Shatner acting silly or this or that before McCoy said it I knew like the worst kind of torture from Spock like I felt that as it was happening uh and it there's a part of it where it's like oh well Kirk he can take it and then it's like but not Spock don't you have to Spock that's worse so
01:14:20
Speaker
It's amazing to my boy. That's right. And even there's a little bit of spurt, but it's really just more like Kirk being like, don't let them break you open. You know what I mean? Like it's friendship. It's the bond between them. It's an episode that really only works because we spend so much time with them already. And that I appreciate all that. So for me, it's like, Wow, I've been watching Star Trek for so many years. And this is not one I remembered until and I watched in 2020. And it hit me like a ton of bricks. And I think it's a well made episode, especially I think that's another thing I like to say, for Mary's, it can't just be like, I liked it. So it's good. I think it had something to say. I think it executed it pretty well. yeah People who might have a taste issue with how deep or how far they go with it. Fair enough. But I think it's a pretty well made episode of the show. that a point of view I think it's absolutely
01:15:10
Speaker
bonkers that people sat through this episode and said, the real problem is that he kissed that black woman. That is like, that was your takeaway. You watched the whole thing. And that was what you took away from it. Like you suck. I hope you're like roasting in hell right now. Like you. Yeah, no. I also think there's like a lazy disengagement with the words like, oh, I've already seen that. It's like this episode. It's really not. It's really telling you something. It's telling a different side of that story. It's they're not doing this for adulation. They're not doing this for profit. They're doing this for the pure, simple pleasure and knowing that they can get away with it. That's it. That's that's terrible. But that's so real. It's ah so you know, I think it's interesting.
01:16:04
Speaker
that they exhibit so many um signs of a civilization in decline. Maybe it was them who killed off Greek society. Hmm. Quite possibly. You know, Socrates had something to say about declining civilizations, which I put in the notes. And I was like, I'm not going to say that, but maybe there will be another opportunity for that to come up. And lo and behold, according to Socrates, A state made up of different kinds of souls will, overall, decline from an aristocracy, rule by the best, to a democracy, rule by the honorable, then to an oligarchy, rule by the few, then to a democracy, rule by the people, and finally to tyranny, rule by one person or a tyrant. so It doesn't always go in that order though. Sure. As we've seen. But pretty close.
01:16:55
Speaker
It was an interesting episode, a lot of ideas. All right, is this a big swing that connects? Sure. Yeah, I mean, it's known only for the kiss, really.
Anticipation for Upcoming Musical Episode
01:17:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's just unfortunate. But yeah, there's a lot more to this episode. I think the elites don't want people to really dig into the deeper biddies of this ah the The The worst sex and everything. They're just going to be like, oh, yeah, I think this is. Yes. ah but I mean, they're they're forcing us, forcing people to degrade themselves for their pleasure. I mean, it's like that. Come on, that's.
01:17:32
Speaker
Outstanding messaging there. So I think it definitely connected. I was excited for you to watch this one, but I didn't want to like hype it or anything. I was like, I wonder how she's going to feel about this one. Yeah. It's also been a long season. I'm tired. Yeah. I kind of like it. It's not like going to text me between episodes going, Oh, yeah, we're going to see this one. That's right. That's how you know, I'm a little tired. Next week. It's the big one. It's subspace Rhapsody from strange new worlds. the musical episode. Don't worry, folks. People already know I'm making it very clear. I'm voting kill, but I don't want my vote to have any meaning. Completely meaningless. So we've invited some guests to join us. It'll be Kristin, myself and a Grammy award winning vocalist. You will meet her next week. wow And also Kristin. Which one do we know? Is it Beyonce? Yeah. You'll have to tune in to find out if it's Beyonce or not.
01:18:32
Speaker
And Kristen's husband will also be joining us. which was absolutely i
01:18:39
Speaker
He's a massive fan of musicals and musical theater. So ah we have music experts. We have Kristen who is fair to Star Trek related things. And then me, who's just going to make sure that we hit all the beats on the rundown. more of a you know referee or something. A master of ceremonies of some kind. Definitely just an editor for the audio. Like how many times will your head be in your hands while you watch it? I'm actually, because it doesn't sound like you've watched it yet. I have not. So I'm excited to hear first reactions, actually. that I enjoy that all the time. Tune in next week. ah We'll be back with Subspace Rhapsody. And I am not a day over 30.
01:19:25
Speaker
35. If nobody want wants to watch this episode, if we described it, please watch it for that scene. but You have to. because She's like, I'm not vain. don't like They're like, we're not going to tell a lady how old she looks like. What are we, crazy? And then she's like, don't worry. I'm not vain. but you can You can guess. And then Spock's like, 35.
01:19:51
Speaker
It's so I forgot to put that as a best Trek trope spot Spock being caddy. Yeah, he's so good at it. That's wonderful. oh I didn't mean I didn't even look to see how old the actress really is. I think she's still with us, according to memory alpha, but she's oh like at the time of thely not the time. of Let's let's find out. Sorry, everyone. Oh, I did out the silence. That's what they want. And you like an intentional ASMR.
01:20:23
Speaker
touching Searching, searching, searching, searching. She was born February 27th, 1937. This episode shot in, what, 1968? So she would have been, she would have been 31. Oh. No, she would have been 30, probably. She would have been, you know. 37 out to 47. 37, no. 67. She's 31. Damn Spock.
01:20:49
Speaker
ah see She looks closer to 35. But you know what? They had so much makeup on these actresses back then. I'm not like I think everyone kind of looked older. She has a long list of credits. She she worked for a very long time. And at least as far as we know, she's still alive. Outlived Leonard Nimoy. She is the last laugh. I'm sure she I'm sure she bears no ill will. All right. So that's next week. Very excited to have everyone on for Subspace Rhapsody. I think it's going to be a fun one. ah Until next week, TMK out. Bye.
01:21:30
Speaker
Three, two, sorry, that line's still a f***ing knee more. F***ing bodies are, man.