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DS9: "The Die is Cast" (s3e21)
2 Plays1 minute ago
LOVE LIES SCREAMING. Garak tortures Odo to get back into Enabran Tain's good graces. Meanwhile, Sisko defies orders to mount a rescue only for he and the Defiant to come across one of Trek's biggest space battles -- to that point! DS9's Season Three Leap Forward theme month continues with the conclusion to an accidental two-parter.
The grades begin at (28:41).
Recommended
Transcript
Preview and Dramatic Elements in DS9
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Check, Marry, Kill. Founders, sabotage, torture, energize. There's an entire fleet to clunking out there. Open fire has just begun. So much for the Dominion. The consequences. There's a good chance you won't be coming back from this mission. Are deadly.
00:00:19
Speaker
We've turned us into sitting ducks for the gem. Who will survive? 2,000 meters. 500. Fire! The war to end all wars. On the next Star Trek Deep Space Nine.
00:00:39
Speaker
marry, kill.
Introduction to the Podcast and Hosts
00:00:45
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Sharice. Welcome to Trek, Marry, Kill, a podcast where we interrogate episodes of Star Trek like a banished Cardassian who's desperate to be welcomed home. We conclude our look at the Deep Space Nine mid-season two-parter that began last week in Improbable Cause with The Die is Cast.
00:01:02
Speaker
It's the 21st episode of Deep Space Nine's third season, which makes sense because our theme this month is Deep Space Nine's Season 3 Leap Forward. I really should have come up with a better name for that theme.
00:01:14
Speaker
Well, it's the name now.
Discussion on DS9 Themes and Production
00:01:16
Speaker
Yep. Anyway, the Dias cast premiered in syndication on May 1st, 1995. Happy 30th anniversary. Still weird to say that out loud.
00:01:26
Speaker
Written by Ronald D. Moore, directed by David Livingston. You know, you look at these episodes and you're like, yeah, this looks like old television.
00:01:37
Speaker
It's old. ah We're, we're, I'm old. You're not old. i We're, it's it's old, but it's nostalgic. It's old. It's like, oh, I remember this. They don't make it this way anymore. They sure don't. And I don't want them to, right? Like if I, if there was a new show like this, I'd be like, why does this look like this?
00:01:53
Speaker
Why is it in 4.3? Yeah. Yeah. Why are they talking so close to each other? If they scoot back a little bit, COVID people, back up.
00:02:03
Speaker
I feel like the news shows go to
In-depth Analysis of 'The Die is Cast' Episode
00:02:05
Speaker
another extreme, though. They sure do. Where it's like, are they even in the same room? No, no, no. They shot this. They shot their sides of it months apart. Yeah. Because they don't like each other.
00:02:14
Speaker
Yeah. Then staging wise, they're literally on opposite corners of the room, seemingly, but still whisper talking to each other. Can't win for losing. that's right That's true. Why are we whispering? Well, COVID, we'd need to keep the particles. That's true.
00:02:28
Speaker
That's true. Short distance. All right. Memory Alpha describes this episode. The Cardassian Romulan fleet enters the Gamma Quadrant. Sisko goes against Starfleet orders to rescue Odo. Bum, bum, bum.
00:02:41
Speaker
ah Not quite a Mad Men level description of the episode because so much happens in this one. What Memory Alpha is not telling us is that on their way to the Founders homeworld, Anabrin Tane, former head of the Obsidian Order and Garak's father, tests Garak's loyalty by having him interrogate Odo with the help of a torture device that won't let Odo revert to his liquid form and regenerate.
00:03:03
Speaker
Meanwhile, aboard the Defiant, Lieutenant Commander Eddington, that piece of shit, confesses to sabotaging the ship's cloaking device so that it is forced to turn back for the Alpha Quadrant. He's working on behalf of a jabroni named Admiral Todman, who we never met before, but it seems...
00:03:20
Speaker
But it's very influential, clearly. He had already ordered Sisko not to mount a rescue mission. And so he's using Eddington as a sort of backstop to that order. Sharice, I have a sense that you might have a few questions that need answering, like what happened last week, such as, who is Eddington?
00:03:39
Speaker
Why does the Defiant have a cloak, et cetera? Well, do you answered the cloak question last week. um i I've never seen Eddie Tann before. So is this i mean this is my question.
00:03:51
Speaker
Was this character on the show before this episode or is this like a one-off situation? Season two, Colum Meany, Chief O'Brien, had it in his contract that he could at least go and do this one particular movie.
00:04:04
Speaker
So they wrote
Character Dynamics of Odo and Garak
00:04:05
Speaker
him out of the show for a period of time. And in his place, they put an attache from Starfleet security under the guise of like, Deep Space Nine is important. We can't just leave security up to the contingent we dropped off and Bajoran security.
00:04:20
Speaker
So they put like a Starfleet security specialist in O'Brien's role. That's hilarious. And filled in for a while. And then when Call Meanie came back- But O'Brien wasn't security. Correct. But he was, they needed someone in that position who was wearing gold. Yeah. and made you miss o'brien i guess but so he was just kind of there and then so he kind of dips in they use him when they need to and then eventually ah he will leave and we will or he will join the maquis and he'll become a turncoat he will join the maquis him of all people little mr rules follower yep well that's confusing
00:04:59
Speaker
Yeah, in this episode, when he was all like biting his lips, when Sis goes like, we're going to go forget orders. And he's just like looking all, you know, constipated. When the next time I see him on the Defiant, I was just like, why would you go on this mission? You clearly don't want to go on this mission.
00:05:16
Speaker
You don't have to go on this mission. This was very clearly a volunteer a volunteer mission. And yeah. And then when he turns around, he's like, I sabotaged it because I was on the Admiral's orders. i was like, oh, that makes sense.
00:05:26
Speaker
Okay, so then now I have a question for everyone else. Why didn't we all see that he didn't want to go on this mission?
00:05:32
Speaker
Because it's TV in the 90s, Charisse, and the big so the big features that give away their emotions that we can't we can see
Exploration of DS9's Narrative and Production
00:05:41
Speaker
them, but the characters can't see them unless they express them specifically because it's television. Or maybe because he was so good at being security. He was really stealthy. That all of his emotions only played to screen. Exactly. Not any other humans around him. Exactly. Exactly.
00:05:59
Speaker
Yeah. I also have a question about Odo, which is like total newbie question. Why is his face like that? Like, why isn't he more? Basically, he's not as good of a shapeshifter as the other changelings.
00:06:12
Speaker
Is he does he not have enough practice or something? Is that the thing? The first. found We find this out in the season premiere of season three. Like I said, this is how we find out a lot of lore about sees season two finale establishes. There's this thing called the Dominion.
00:06:26
Speaker
We've heard about them, but like we see them kind of announce themselves at the end of season two. The beginning of season three, they send the Defiant into the to go looking for the founders, the the headquarters of the Dominion. They find the founders.
00:06:39
Speaker
Odo learns that he was part of a group of little changeling goos that were sent off to kind of see what if the solids had changed their ways, because everywhere the founders had gone, they'd been persecuted, chased, hunted, killed.
00:06:53
Speaker
So Odo kind of like was part of a scouting mission after thousands of years being like, is everything cool now? Yeah. He kind of got lost. And ah he was studied by Bajorans, which is both kind of like, you know, basically he was a lab experiment. But once they realized he was alive, they still kind of treated him like a like a monkey.
00:07:13
Speaker
Right. So he can't quite just get the morph right on his face. That's I see. But had he grown up? On his home world, he would have learned the secret sauce for how to change like flawlessly or something. That's right.
00:07:27
Speaker
cat's ah He would have been able to look like a Romulan on the ship who was able to... Lovac, who was able to who is a changeling and looked just like any other Romulan. Spoiler alert.
00:07:41
Speaker
ah so Yeah, when I saw it, I was like, well, wait a minute. Why is Odo's face all mushy? But okay. Okay. That's what I wanted to know. Those are all my questions. Okay. Great. This episode was the first with Ira Stephen Bear as executive producer.
00:07:56
Speaker
I just want to point that out that I did not know this until I read that note. I didn't know that before mounting Trek, Mary Kill. I always had it assumed it took he took over as of season three. I knew there was ah switch over. I just thought it was like the beginning of season three.
00:08:11
Speaker
ah So
Literary and Cultural Impact of DS9
00:08:13
Speaker
kind of interesting that happens actually really at the tail end. By this point, Michael Piller was over on Voyager. I said this last week. over on Voyager, and then also developing shows for UPN.
00:08:24
Speaker
But I think that's significant for for our theme month, since most of the episodes that we're doing this month, even though we're just doing four, and two of them are this two-parter. But they're all from the latter part of the season, once he had taken over.
00:08:36
Speaker
And I think that's pretty significant because I think Ira Bear is the face of Deep Space Nine these days. He spearheaded the documentary. He was the host of that, basically. But now that Avery Brooks...
00:08:48
Speaker
has been retired for so long. I think he's the one that's, know, the face of the show at the at this time. And that makes sense because pretty much from this point on, it really is his show through and through.
00:09:01
Speaker
And that's kind of the way that modern shows are anyway. They're kind of more closely associated with the creator, the showrunner, that kind of thing. um I think there had been celebrity showrunners,
00:09:13
Speaker
in TV for a while now. i think Stephen Bochco was really kind of the first one. Then there was David E. Kelly. I could be wrong about Stephen Bochco, but Stephen Bochco, David E. Kelly, ah they're, you Joss Whedon for a time. Shonda Rhimes now, Ryan Murphy. These are people, not quite household names, but if you hear the names, you kind of associate it a certain now empires with a lot of people. But the the celebrity showrunner,
00:09:40
Speaker
ah Ira Bear is sort of the syndicated TV version of that. And basically, and for Star Trek as well, because Michael Piller is no longer with us. All the new shows have had so many showrunners.
00:09:53
Speaker
I think Akiva Goldsman and Henry Alonzo Myers are kind of trying to fit in there. um Anyway, without getting into all that, it's just he's kind of a one of one in terms of Star Trek, especially since Gene Roddenberry is not with us, that kind of thing.
00:10:05
Speaker
ah I mentioned this last week, but this part two was not the episode shot after part one because it was never intended to be a two parter. So pre-production on through the looking glass was already well underway when the Dias cast was green lit.
00:10:20
Speaker
So then the air dates were flipped. So shot them in different orders and flip them. ah I don't know if you knew this, Charisse, but through the looking glass. So deep space nine, because TNG g didn't do any episodes in the mirror universe.
00:10:33
Speaker
Yeah. uh deep space nine was like what if we did so did you ever see the original series episode mirror mirror no no it's pretty famous episode of the original series where they go to an alternate universe and the federation or starfleet's evil and you you've seen it yeah basically i've seen it in done to death in all the other shows yes in all the other shows but it was not in tng and it was not in voyager but in uh deep space nine they basically took but The end of Mirror Mirror is arc Kirk tells Mirror Universe Spock, you can stop this.
00:11:09
Speaker
This... ah you know, tyranny, this fascism can be stopped with one person standing up. And Spock takes that advice, but it causes humans to not only, because humans have been oppressing the galaxy, causes humans to not only lose their empire, but become basically the oppress the slaves of the, yeah, the oppressed.
00:11:31
Speaker
And so Deep State Stein picks up on that idea and there's, they start crossing over and try to, the humans try to get, either people from our universe or technology from our universe to fight the war over in the other universe.
00:11:44
Speaker
And Deep Space Nine from season two on has at least has a mere universe episode in every season. wow. season seven am might And they're just one little one offs.
00:11:55
Speaker
And I kind of think there's only a couple that are actually kind of good, but. they're They're kind of fun. And i' I actually don't want to rewatch them, to be honest, because of everything the other
Analysis of Character Development and Themes
00:12:07
Speaker
shows have done with the Mirror Universe. I'm definitely sick of it.
00:12:10
Speaker
But i will I do want to not throw a flag. I do want to mention that Prodigy actually does do effectively a Voyager Mirror Universe episode.
00:12:22
Speaker
Yeah, I did see that. I did recently watch all of Prodigy. and What did you think? It was, well, i I realized why I stopped watching it. Like when I watched it again, I was like, ah, this is the point. It was like episode three. The kids were being so angsty.
00:12:34
Speaker
And as you know, I used to be a middle school teacher. So I was like, I can't deal. Like I just couldn't deal with the angsty kid vibes. But I pushed through. um I thought season two was spectacular.
00:12:45
Speaker
And the Mirror Universe episode was so fun, especially since like, Yeah, it just everything about it was really cute. um And it felt really complete. So I feel like ah season three makes a lot of sense because they can just go on another adventure.
00:12:59
Speaker
But it also felt like if they don't do another season, I'm totally satisfied. I don't feel like there's so many open loops, but what's going to happen? You know what i mean? So I think they did that really well. I just think that the boldest choice that that series makes is Hot Chakotay.
00:13:16
Speaker
Oh my gosh, Chakotay is so spicy. And they really push into that like strong warrior kind of a thing. That's right. This Chakotay fucks.
00:13:32
Speaker
And they made Janeway different also. Like they made her... This was what was so cool about Prodigy. and know we're getting off topic from DS9, but just FYI, if you haven't watched Prodigy yet, is that we get to see what Janeway is like in the Alpha Quadrant, which we never have seen before.
00:13:46
Speaker
Because she spent all of Voyager in the Delta Quadrant trying to get home. And even when she communicates with the Alpha Quadrant in Season 7, doing little missions, which were stupid... Um, really that's just a little bit of like, Hey guys, we're still alive. Oh my gosh. It's so good to see you. Can't wait to get home. Like that's really what it was.
00:14:02
Speaker
And so prodigy gives us a chance to see what would she be like in the alpha quadrant, which I was always curious about. Like, would she be, you know, the kind of person who like follows orders, which be the kind of person who disobeys orders constantly. Would she be always bucking against the system? Cause that's kind of like, you know, that's a track trope for captains.
00:14:19
Speaker
So that alone, aside from everything else was really cool to see. Yeah. ah Season two impressive is is the only word I can really think about. like eight two-parters and I'm okay with that.
00:14:33
Speaker
and If you didn't know, listeners, we did an episode ah back in April where we... We had a special where we looked at some episodes and we tried to figure out which ones were Mary's because I don't think it's a kid's like its four little kids. It just didn't feel correct to kill any episodes.
00:14:50
Speaker
So when they came out, they were all treks as a starting point, but I wanted to see which ones were Mary. So go listen to that one, ah back in April. Uh, let's talk about this one some more. Let's see.
00:15:02
Speaker
Um, The writer saw this episode as a... This is why I love Star Trek stories. We just went on a on a two series tangent. well Actually, three if we talk about Mirror Mirror.
00:15:16
Speaker
That's pretty cool. Anyway, the the writers of this episode, the Dias cast, they wanted to remind viewers that Garrick wasn't a typical good guy. According to Ira Bear, we wanted to show what he's capable of, even if he doesn't want to do it.
00:15:31
Speaker
could you torture yourself Could you torture someone if you had to? Garrick can do it.
00:15:37
Speaker
I feel like Odo could also do it. An interesting point that I will definitely mention later about my feelings and in their scenes together. because i agree with you that there are much more alike than I ever would have thought um regarding the filming of the scene in which Odo is tortured by Garrick.
00:15:58
Speaker
Odo actor Rene Abortionois noted, I felt like some character from King Lear. The acting method I used was very Shakespearean. He also had that makeup, that really gross makeup helping him out. That makeup was spectacular. He looked exactly like a Vidian.
00:16:13
Speaker
And I was like, good what? yeah The what? Like I put, I wrote in my notes that it was Odo as a mummy. And it was shocking because I didn't know, I don't know anything about these changelings. So I was like, oh, he has to regenerate. And if he doesn't, he turns into a mummy. This is terrible. Yeah.
00:16:28
Speaker
Well, and none of us knew that. Okay, was going to say, did anyone else know that before this moment? Because I was like shocked. When Garrick asks, what will happen if you can't revert? And Odo's like, I don't know.
00:16:39
Speaker
none of us knew. We've certainly seen... Odo get really sick or cranky upset if he can't regenerate. Like he can't, he just, the effort to hold his form, he needs to sleep like a person, basically.
00:16:56
Speaker
ah The episode, sorry, of the torture scene, director David Livingston told Sci-Fi Universe, it is one of the best scenes that I've been involved in. i put it on my director's reel. Now this is 1995. He did a lot of Voyager after this.
00:17:09
Speaker
And so I don't know that I, I don't, I don't think that holds because I think he's done other, some really other amazing scenes in Star Trek since then, which is not a damning that scene, just pointing out David Livingston. I mean, if you could talk to your past self, I'm sure you would say, hi I've done better actually.
00:17:29
Speaker
ah This episode features the biggest onscreen battle in Star Trek history up to that point. Sharice, you as a non-Deepstace 9 watcher, there are many, many more space battles in Deepstace 9 that dwarf the one that we see in this episode.
00:17:46
Speaker
Visual effects supervisor Gary Hutzel was instructed to come up with a way to portray the Battle of the Omarian Nebula without going over budget. His solution was to create transparencies of the models of the Romulan Warbirds and the Cardassian ships, and and to use those transparencies in the background.
00:18:01
Speaker
Coupled with the fact that they were in the background, Hutzel ensured that the camera never lingered on one of them too long, as to ensure viewers didn't spot the effect. You can definitely, if you read that and then you watch it, you can figure out there's some uncanniness going on, you know? Mm-hmm.
00:18:16
Speaker
But whatever's front of the shot still catches your eye, and that's what was most important. ah Gary Hutzel commented on the special effects filming that, the visual effects filming that, we started shooting motion control on February 21st, and we delivered on April 21st.
00:18:32
Speaker
We had 20 days motion control shooting, a record for a one-hour show. And again, this episode premiered in syndication, basically like, what, 12, 13 days later? we had... ah so we had ah The shot where the USS Defiant destroys a Jem'Hadar fighter and then flies through the debris took four days to film.
00:18:51
Speaker
Ah, the days before CGI. um I mean, they i think they had CGI back then, but maybe they didn't it was maybe it wass too expensive or cumbersome or who knows what well we have to do for this show.
00:19:04
Speaker
Yeah, we had talked about when we were doing those first season Voyager episodes that it was in in play. But I think it's a pretty obvious answer. What's going on here is that Voyager had more money. So it was on the state of the art track.
00:19:18
Speaker
And DJ Stein was still using the old ways because that was cost certainty. It fit their budgets. Yeah. um so and it's And we're really only talking about a few months overlap on those two techniques.
00:19:31
Speaker
And also they could have priced it with the Voyager pricing and been like, well, this shot, maybe Voyager could afford, but we can't afford that. to says not We've got to do it the old way. It looked great.
00:19:43
Speaker
It looked great.
Critique of DS9's Strategic and Ethical Portrayals
00:19:44
Speaker
So they, they did really well with what they had last week, but especially this episode marked the appearance of a new style of Romulan uniform. This redesign was Ron Moore's idea.
00:19:57
Speaker
After he watched the episode Visionary, which was a season two Deep Space Nine episode, which is really fun and you should check it out. It's a time loop episode. with chief o'brien trees oh i'll love it then i love time with episodes he came to feel that the old style romulan uniforms were unacceptable and he had robert blackman give the design an overhaul actually it's a season three episode um he said i hated underline hated romulan costumes big shoulder pads the quilting i just loathed it i begged insisted screamed pleaded
00:20:33
Speaker
They were so elaborate. The quilting was spectacular because it made it look like it was armor, but it was really a quilting effect on like a softer fabric. um They were really... but the The Cardassian and Romulan costumes were very um elaborate.
00:20:48
Speaker
They were just... ah They were super elaborate. And looking at them, you're just like, oh my goodness, how long did it take to make each and every one of these pieces? Yeah. Compared to the Starfleet uniforms, which was like pajamas.
00:20:58
Speaker
Yeah. I think it was a pretty good call, actually. I think these look... I don't know look better. You know, ah they're not, they don't really look distinct so much, but they evoke in the original series. When we first meet the Romulans are much closer to balance of terror.
00:21:14
Speaker
They'd look more functional. ah And they look, know, they look, I think they do look better. I think it was a good call. I was tired of the shoulder pad Romulans as well. I have a problem when all the alien characters are constantly dressed the same.
00:21:28
Speaker
You know, the Cardassians are always wearing that certain armor. I understand why they do it. It's just nice to change it up. um Ira Bear was disappointed by the lack of media interest in this episode following what he found was little media interest in the two-parter, Past Tense Part 1 and Past Tense Part 2.
00:21:45
Speaker
We did the improbable cause two-parter and I thought we were going to get great media attention and basically nothing again. It's amazing because I think it's really quality TV. I liked everything about the episodes.
00:21:55
Speaker
They're about as good as Deep Space Nine gets. Now, obviously he has an and a vested interest. He's taken over the show. Right. so But also, you know, I am a content creator. I'm making stuff on all these social media platforms and YouTube and things like that.
00:22:10
Speaker
And these sentiments are like, I feel like every content creator can relate to that statement of, I thought this was going to be awesome. I thought people are going to love it. And nobody did. It's like just hearing him say that. I'm like, yeah, buddy. Yep.
00:22:22
Speaker
That's exactly what it's like. You make something that's amazing. And sometimes people don't appreciate it, but sometimes it just takes a little time or sometimes a lot of time. And then people are like, oh my gosh, this is the most amazing thing you've ever done. And you're like, right. I knew that from the beginning.
00:22:37
Speaker
and don't know what took so long. So just, i I don't know. I just feel a kindred spirit connection with this statement of like, I made something amazing and I thought everybody was going to love it. And then it got three views.
00:22:48
Speaker
Okay. ah Well, and this is all from season three, and this is why I part of the reason why I say it's the big leap forward past tense. We're still talking about today because it predicts this massive homelessness crisis that we've wiped under the rug. It it names 2024 as the date.
00:23:06
Speaker
It's a pretty famous episode of Star Trek now that at the time was sort of like whatever. This episode is such a pivotal moment in the history of Deep Space Nine.
00:23:16
Speaker
You could or could not argue in Star Trek. I think for Deep Space Nine, it's basically though. um And I think to that point, it really solidified that as great as season three of Doopsy Stein is, and I think a lot of fans for a long time just thought, well, once Worf joins the show, then it picks up.
00:23:32
Speaker
I think Doopsy Stein in season two was great. um And season three, it takes the step forward that, has been credited with Worf's arrival in season four. I think that's all happening here. But I also think that regardless of Worf, that season three also cements that this is the middle child, that this will be the ignored ah Star Trek series. And to a large measure it is because you have a lot of TNG to Voyager fans.
00:23:57
Speaker
You don't have a lot of... You know, have a lot of me fans, TMG to Deep Space Nine and then impress me. It's hard to impress me after Deep Space Nine.
00:24:08
Speaker
um So there's there's that going on here. so um But yeah, I guess sometimes people's, the greatness is not recognized in its own time, as you say. I mean, if you've ever heard of any cult classic ever, that's exactly what happened with those.
00:24:22
Speaker
Some movie that came out or show that had one season and then was immediately canceled because it got no ratings. And then 10 years later, people are dressing up in costumes from that show.
00:24:32
Speaker
People are making bootleg versions of that show. Like it's just sometimes it's like that. And as a creative person, ah your job is not to make people love your works. Your job is to make great work.
00:24:45
Speaker
And then move on to the next great work. It's like you got to just keep going. So, yeah. All right. Part one opened with Garrick and Dr. Bashir discussing Julius Caesar. And then here in part two, there are a few references to Julius Caesar.
00:24:59
Speaker
This is Memory Alpha pointing this out. And I was chuckling because I read this note before I conducted my rewatch. So I was enjoying all the times it came up and how much this episode did surprisingly parallel part one.
00:25:13
Speaker
ah There are many references to Julius Caesar in this episode. The dais cast, the title is taken from words reportedly spoken by Caesar in 49 BC as he led a legion of troops across the Rubicon, which would become the name of one of the runabouts on Deep Space Nine.
00:25:29
Speaker
um Anyway, Garrick also quotes... Shakespeare's Julius Caesar to Tane. I'm afraid the fault to Tane is not in our stars, but in ourselves.
00:25:40
Speaker
And of course, most importantly, I think, Charisse, the last episode opened with Garrick being in disbelief that Julius Caesar could not see that his betrayer was right under his nose.
00:25:52
Speaker
And Anabrentain is staggered that his betrayer has been right under his nose the whole time at the end with the with with the commander Lovac.
00:26:04
Speaker
And then last note, I want to say before, before we get to the grades, cause I figured you'd appreciate this. Lovac is played by Leland Orser, who'd appeared previously in season two sanction sanctuary. Not a good episode.
00:26:15
Speaker
After this episode though, he'd make two more appearances in Star Trek. Let me leap forward a moment. He appears in 2003 in an episode of enterprise called carpenter street. And most importantly, though, before 2003, he appeared as the humanoid-hating hologram Dajaran in the Voyager episode, Revolta. There it is. He looked vaguely familiar, but he was in all those prosthetics that he could just be some random Romulans from some other episode.
00:26:43
Speaker
Yep. I think revulsion is great episode. It's excellent. It is excellent. It is terrifying. It is meaningful. Like at the end when the doctor is just like, you humans, your greasy little germs on my hypo sprays or whatever. B'Elanna's like, uh-oh. And then he's like, just kidding.
00:27:01
Speaker
I like humans. And you're like, ha, ha, ha, that is kind of funny. um I'm going to leave now. He
DS9's Cultural Significance and Character Dynamics
00:27:09
Speaker
has a breakdown basically to B'Elanna Torres and he's he's like backing her into a corner, which in the moment watching it as a kid, i was like, this is scary.
00:27:21
Speaker
But also very quickly, my mind's like, she's a Klingon. Why is she afraid? Because it's a hologram and she can't fight it. I know. But if it was Vorik, OK, she would have broken his nose.
00:27:33
Speaker
My thing about Klingons is what makes the Klingons great, why we all love Worf, is that they they are brave in the face of danger. And so i hate that they always make B'Elanna either basically the feisty Latina. She's either yelling at people or afraid. And it's just annoying. And at just one of those times, I would have liked this kind of diminutive, you know, she's smaller than average, just to be like, I'm going to take on the biggest guy.
00:28:00
Speaker
You know what I mean? It just seems like that would fit her character more, especially if she's in Mikey. But Leland Orser, I just also want to point out, he's from the Bay Area. And so I'm always like, why do i know? Why did I know who he was before that episode?
00:28:12
Speaker
And it's sort of like if you're in, there are certain people who kind of stick depending on where you live. relative fame whatever and i'm like oh once i saw he was for the bay area i'm like that's why i knew who he was that's kind of weird anyway um also a lot of star trek fans in the bay area uh as well like also new york live of course nationwide but uh so i'm gonna just guess that he was a star trek fan as well i got to do this um anyway just want to point that out let's get into the grades great scenes charise how many did you have i have three and a half okay
00:28:48
Speaker
um The first is when Tane and Garrick are reminiscing over drinks. I really like that scene and they're um kind of just they're they're just chit chatting about old times or whatever.
00:29:00
Speaker
But what I liked about that scene is you can tell that they're both, you know, they're both spies. They're both professional liars. So whatever they're talking about, there's all this subtext underneath what they're talking about. And they're both being very careful about what they're saying and not saying and how they're saying it or not saying it.
00:29:14
Speaker
And I just thought that was played very well. Also, I really enjoyed watching them dr drink that grapefruit juice through their prosthetics because I was just like, but how will they do it? Won't their makeup come off their lips?
00:29:25
Speaker
I don't know. That for me, which was not about making it a great moving character scene, but I just enjoyed that as a viewer. Okay. My thought was this. Is that... That liquid cannot be chilled because they're shooting it under the lights. They're doing so many takes.
00:29:40
Speaker
But if you notice in the glass, it's fogged up. So then the opposite that I had, they must be baking under ah that makeup. Because how do you heat that glass when the when the liquid is most likely room temperature?
00:29:54
Speaker
And it's like, you must be. The studio is cold. Yeah. That's fine. But yeah you must be the heat coming off of you. but Well, also all the lights, all the lights on them. I remember hearing a um one of the actors from Voyager say on the Delta Flyers that depending on the way the light's shooting, I think it was ah Robert Duncan McNeil who plays Tom Paris. He was talking about how this one scene, the light was coming from like the left side pointing on his face or whatever. And he was like the left like the left side of his body was like covered in sweat and the right side of his body was totally dry. So it like that, like half and half. i was like, oh my gosh, that's horrible. That's crazy. or
00:30:29
Speaker
um Anyways, okay, so that was one. The other scene was when Cisco was telling the senior staff that it's a volunteer mission. And if they do or don't succeed, they're probably all going to face a court-martial either way on their way back out.
00:30:42
Speaker
I thought that was a great scene. Yeah, or die. So we're we're assuming they live. And if they live, they're all getting a court-martial. Win or lose. And then it's like, are you guys all in? and they're like, go team. So I like that scene. um Everyone's like, yeah, court-martial, smart-martial. Like, who cares?
00:30:56
Speaker
And then... I really enjoyed that last scene where Tane just has this... like i I put in my notes his final crazy speech before Odo knocks out Garrick, where he's just like...
00:31:08
Speaker
He's just, they also do like a fisheye lens in that scene so that it looks also crazy. Like, and the way he's like staring off into space and spouting nonsense. And Garrick's like, you gotta come with me.
00:31:20
Speaker
Let's go. Come on. And he's like, oh, how interesting. You know, you just see him like losing it. That was great. That was so well done. And disturbing and creepy and perfect um and then the point five is just an honorable mention for o'brien and basheer having lunch which was juxtaposed against basheer having lunch with garic and it just was that scene just but it just made me laugh because basheer's like and what do you think about the philosophy of blah blah blah and o'brien's like what i was just eating my eggs i was eating my lunch eggs with my lunch soup i'm having soup for yeah
00:31:58
Speaker
And Bashir's just like, well, I thought we were going to like talk and have deep conversation. Brian's like, you asked for lunch. We're having lunch. You asked for all this deep conversation. You asked for all that. You asked for philosophy. You asked for lunch.
00:32:10
Speaker
We are eating lunch. I just, i don't know. That scene just made me laugh. What about you? Oh, Brian's also kind of eating at Bashir speed. Yes. Part one. it Yes. it's And Bashir's now eating at Garrick speed. Yes. Yeah.
00:32:22
Speaker
For some reason. That's true. ah I put... have four great scenes. The two torture scenes. the The first part is Odo doesn't know what will happen if he can revert to a liquid state.
00:32:34
Speaker
That scene is... It's such 90s Star Trek. So Odo is in quarters. It's basically a carpeted cell.
00:32:45
Speaker
Yeah. you know, and then they put a camping light on a table and they put some fancy looking diodes around this camping light. Yeah. turn the camping light on and we're supposed to camping light of death. Yes, that's exactly right.
00:33:01
Speaker
And so it's all about, and then Garak's basically being his theatrical full self, but also not like a changed person. There are other episodes where Garak's going through some stuff and he and his persona changes, here he's like, I'm going to approach this.
00:33:19
Speaker
Garrick knows, or Odo knows who I am, and I think I can just convey to him the importance of, just tell me. Just tell me what I need, not and I'll get out of here. and And then Odo's That is Odo's default, by the way. I just want you to know for the for the first, that is Odo's default is Garrick presses him and he's like, oh, you're going to torture me. And then he's just, he's like a toothache. He's just cranky.
00:33:43
Speaker
He doesn't want to talk to anybody. That's how he was through most of the first two seasons of the show. Normally no one was holding ah ah without being weapon of death against him. He just had no patience or tolerance for anybody.
00:33:55
Speaker
And then the second scene when the actual torturing is going on, um that was a tough scene as a kid. It, it, it, I did not understand what quite was going on here because one of my great scenes is the very last scene between ah Odo and Garrick where Garrick's going through the wreckage of his shop and they're having this conversation and the episode ends with Garrick making a new friend.
00:34:20
Speaker
Odo and Garrick becoming friends. I understand when two guys get in a fight, they usually become friends. that That is a weird You've probably observed this teaching. ah But torturing is a little different, I think.
00:34:32
Speaker
But as you said, Odo seems like he he's kind of cool with it. I mean, he that that's one of my that's one of ah my best lines later on, where Odo's basically like, I don't agree with what you did, but I understand why you did it.
00:34:45
Speaker
And so... Yeah, let's talk about that some more later because this is teenage me finally learning some stuff. Because I had one more great scene and that is, of course, the space battle. Oh, yeah, the space battle.
00:34:57
Speaker
I think I put that under the visual. Well, sure. Amazing. That was great. That was so great. But in the space battle, we
Final Thoughts and Guest Contributions
00:35:05
Speaker
get the reveal that Lovac was a changeling and all this others that, you know, there's a lot going on. It looks cool.
00:35:11
Speaker
ah And then they escape and Garak apologizes and it looks like they're going to die. And then the vine shows up. So that's pretty cool. ah Best Trek tropes.
00:35:22
Speaker
So my first one was decloaking ships. Just period. I love it. I love it. I never get tired of it. do. I really do. I never get tired of it. I'm always like, ooh, it was invisible. Now it's visible.
00:35:34
Speaker
So cool. yeah Also cloaking. I also like cloaking ships. Either way, it's great. um The second best Trek trope was technobabble, which we have said sometimes great is sometimes not great. But I liked it here. It was just enough to be like, they're doing science stuff.
00:35:47
Speaker
You know, when they were all like, well, the gravimetric, whatever the heck. It was like, oh, yeah, they're scientists doing science stuff. And then my third best Trek trope was going after a lost crew member against orders.
00:35:59
Speaker
You can't be a Starfleet captain without doing that. Like, you would lose your captain card if you are like, yeah, you're right, Admiral. We're just going to leave him on the planet to die. you know what mean? It's like you would, nobody would respect you anymore.
00:36:10
Speaker
Your entire crew with mutiny and you would get court-martialed just for being a coward or something or following quote unquote following orders but doing the wrong thing so i thought that was um just you know a good trope to see yeah that was a great one that was one of mine as well i also put cardassian theatricality and you touched on this you've got two spies speaking to each other they have to be careful about what they say but it's also how they say it and obviously star trek acting has a lot of staginess to it anyway but you know uh an aber and tame but
00:36:42
Speaker
That guy does not seem to have a bone of authenticity or there's not a ah residue. Nothing he says feels real, you know, and that's all by design, I guess. But I'm talking like this. Oh, well, Garrick, he will see what you have to say about that and blah, blah, blah.
00:36:58
Speaker
And then Andrew Robinson, well, of course, I'm Garrick. It's always it's just so there's always a veil going on. Even when he's like berating Odo, just tell me something. Lie to me.
00:37:09
Speaker
You know, are there's still something very theatrical about his performance, which we could say is just commitment. But also, I'm just going to say that's how Cardassians are. Mark Galaimo as as a Gold Dukat. Like it just there is something to their basically speechifying villains born as a species in Star Trek. That's kind of the Cardassian deal.
00:37:31
Speaker
ah You had disobeying orders to rescue a friend, which is a great one. But I also had the sub part of that pretending you didn't get orders. Always do it in the corniest way possible.
00:37:44
Speaker
They're losing reception. Yes. Oh, that was badly garbled transmission, wasn't it? I don't know. no so And the funny thing is, too, the Admiral sent a second message.
00:37:56
Speaker
That's right. Just making sure Just want to make sure you so like I said before, really, really, really don't go in, okay? Just making sure. i think today they would have done that differently because...
00:38:09
Speaker
I love Major Kira and I think she's ah an amazing character that sometimes gets passed aside. And we've talked about this on Voyager where sometimes like the women get pushed aside so that the men can be the heroes whatever.
00:38:24
Speaker
I really think that given Major Kira's background, she would have just, they would have done it differently where you either visualize the message coming in and she just like deleted it. um Or she said, oh, Starfleet's trying to send us a message.
00:38:38
Speaker
I can't make out what it's... You know, i mean, she would have initiated the ruse or the complaint. But you have to make give it to Sisko here. And this episode is actually a very important episode for establishing what happens at the end of the season, which is Commander Sisko finally becomes Captain Sisko.
00:38:53
Speaker
think this episode is very much about him commanding the Defiant and commanding the show and commanding the crew. He's not like the center of the action, but he's also creating a plot for himself basically, right?
00:39:05
Speaker
By doing this rescue mission and and running the ship like a Captain Wood. and That's not one of my tropes, but I'm just thinking it's all drafting off of this normal trope of not receiving orders.
00:39:16
Speaker
And then the other two Starfleet engineers as miracle workers, which I think the label if we' we're to label these tropes as Scotty, the miracle worker. So here it'll take 10 hours for O'Brien to fix the Tetreon compositor, ah the broken piece of the of the cooking device, thanks to Eddington sabotage.
00:39:34
Speaker
But Cisco gives him two hours. And it ends up taking him like, what, three and a half? Or four, somewhere. So he didn't quite break the Scotty warp field drive or whatever of getting it done in under two hours.
00:39:48
Speaker
However, suddenly it did not take 10. That's right. so He did still inflate the repair time, though. Like that is what Scotty taught Jordy. Or he just worked more efficiently than he knew he could.
00:40:01
Speaker
That's true. Well, without the help of anybody, he didn't need anybody bothering him. um Yeah, I will say just as an it as a former employee, ah those are the worst kinds of bosses who just give you unrealistic timelines that they pulled out of the air.
00:40:16
Speaker
Just throwing that out there. That reminds me, one of the other best Trek tropes, this happens in the lunch scene, is basically O'Brien's Irishness. so Like his, like, my mother used to say, like that sort of If you try to talk and eat at the same time, you combine eating and talking, you'll end up doing neither you very well.
00:40:37
Speaker
So, you know, It's always a reminder that ah Chief O'Brien is Irish. And then the last one is starship acting. Shaking in your seats when the ship is hit. There's a lot of that going on. Leland Orser's like lurching in his chair.
00:40:53
Speaker
They've even got Paul Dooley being like, want to give it a shot? He's like, sure, I'll sit in the chair. Yeah. I know. Come on, Starfleet, get some seatbelts.
00:41:04
Speaker
We've never learned. That's right. Oh, the Tal Shiar, you know, they're a ruthless, efficient people. So they're like, if you can't survive without a seatbelt, we'll just replace you with someone who can. ah Worst Trek tropes.
00:41:18
Speaker
I have one. And that is all senior staff going on an away mission together. Ha, ha, I was just like, who's running You literally have the chief medical officer. You've got everyone.
00:41:32
Speaker
Everyone who's in charge of every department is on this one ship right now. If you blow up this one ship, who's in charge? They don't get away from that as the show goes on They just do it less.
00:41:47
Speaker
But it's done like a volunteer mission and the entire command crew volunteers is ridiculous. take you yeah I mean, but it's not a DS9 specific no terrible trope. it's a all Star Trek trope where it's like, who should go? Well, definitely the captain, definitely the first officer, definitely the chief of security, and also the chief medical officer should probably go also.
00:42:08
Speaker
um Chief engineer should definitely go. Let's see, anyone else. Who's in charge the hydroponics bay? You should go. Who's in charge of all the kids? Yeah, you should go. You should definitely go on the away mission. Yeah, Kiko O'Brien checking in.
00:42:20
Speaker
Where it's like, okay. They're doing all the stations. They're like engines, but communications working, engines check. And then Kate O'Brien, hydroponics. Right. This is why we need the doctor to do the like medical, you know, the command hologram because we need one person like the doctor or data who could just do all the stations for when everybody else goes on an away mission. And then the doctor and data are on the away mission. And you're like, okay, well, so that was mine. What about you?
00:42:47
Speaker
I also had one. So this ah the trope is sort of like, what is Starfleet is the worst Trek trope. And let me explain. I'm labeling this trope broadly because sometimes Starfleet presents itself as a scientific arm of the Federation, sometimes the military, sometimes a police force, right negotiators, ambassadors, slash ambassadors.
00:43:06
Speaker
But in this case, so along those lines, I'm asking... The Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order, they're military? Like, the statement in the episode is that the Romulans and the Cardassians' clandestine services combine to create a ah fleet to go all in force to destroy the Founders' homeworld.
00:43:28
Speaker
The implication, I think the idea of the episode is, as the Changeling says, that every... member of the Talsiar and the Obsidian Order were on these ships.
00:43:39
Speaker
and in So it's not just our fleet, huh? it's It's even the Cardassians and Romulans who send all their people. Yes, but you're telling me that these Romulan and Cardassian ships were filled with James Bonds?
00:43:51
Speaker
Right. They're all in one ship? That doesn't make sense. They're not like spaceship officers. rights Right. They're spies. They should be doing spy stuff.
00:44:03
Speaker
They shouldn't be pushing the panels. And I understand there's like, even the in the real world, theres there is crossover for sure. But like yeah but not like not a military not in a military maneuver like this, where the whole plan was go into this place, like go into the Gamma Quadrant.
00:44:23
Speaker
and then just blast this planet out of existence from space. So there was really no need for spy craft here. You just need people to drop bombs. That's right. it's It's a military operation. So it's just bizarre to me that they're conflating the two in such a way to like make the point of like, and we've wiped them all out.
00:44:42
Speaker
And I'm like, But did you? They're just Most cosplayable character or moment? Oh, that was easy for me, Jadzia.
00:44:54
Speaker
I love her trill spots. They're so pretty. That's definitely a costume I have never thought about doing, but I would love, love, love, love. Has anyone done a tortured Odo?
00:45:06
Speaker
i mean, has anyone done a mummy? is that what you pick, though? You pick tortured Odo? Tortured Odo. With all the skin falling off? I'm okay with going with Jadzia because every shot of her, it's just, you're captivated.
00:45:18
Speaker
Such a beautiful person. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Now it's time for the line must drawn. Yeah. Great lines. Okay. So I have like 10. ten um have a lot of great lines.
00:45:30
Speaker
um Maybe I'll cut them down as I go. The first one is when Odo is like the only shared enemy we have is Tane. But the only difference between me and you is that you don't know it and I do or something like that. That's not exactly how he said it.
00:45:41
Speaker
But basically Oda was talking to Garrick about like, this is the only thing we have in common. We have a, we have a mutual enemy, but you're unaware of that. And I wonder if Garrick was unaware of that or if he just on principle distrusts literally everyone all the time.
00:45:57
Speaker
So I don't know, but I thought that was a great line. Um, I liked, you already mentioned these, the, the, how can you be sure when the transmission is so garbled and the, oh no, you're going to torture me. Oh, how I've been dreading this.
00:46:10
Speaker
I liked that. I just thought was really funny. Cause that would not be my reaction to a torture device at any point in life, but I'm not Odo. Um, Then the other one that the quote from Shakespeare, the quote from Julius Caesar of um the fault is in is not in the stars, but in our cells.
00:46:28
Speaker
And then the quote I already said of, I don't agree with what you did, but I certainly understand the desire to go home, which is from Odo to Garrick. And that's why I think in the end he was like, let's do lunch, you know, because he respects him as a fellow survivor and as a fellow outsider.
00:46:47
Speaker
who would do almost anything to get back in but can't get back in. You know, because he also had the opportunity. Because whole thing was like, Garrick had the opportunity to go home. Like, you can come home. you can Everything will be forgiven. All you have to do is torture and potentially kill Odo. And then we're good.
00:47:02
Speaker
And he's like, okay, I can do that. And then Odo has a chance to go home, right? When the changeling is all like, you're one of us. Come back with us. I'll give you one more chance. And he's like, ooh, that sounds really tempting. But friendship.
00:47:13
Speaker
I actually don't know why he didn't go back. um But he was like, no, I can't for some reason. So... He is loyal.
00:47:25
Speaker
Basically, it's a combination of Major Kira, but then also the life that he had with everyone there. And in the face of the Dominion, the founders, he's sort of like, so you were persecuted. And when he learns their history, he's like, you were persecuted and your solution was to become fascists and oppress people.
00:47:47
Speaker
And Odo's story is that he was the basically the civilian police ah chief of the station during the Cardassian occupation. So he witnessed firsthand how the Cardassians and occupying fascist force brutalized innocent people or in under the,
00:48:07
Speaker
idea of law and order, which is what the Dominion's offering. Like we're offering peace. All you have to do is accept everything like our military and our demands and you will be fine.
00:48:18
Speaker
But he's like, I, I lived through this. I saw exactly what happens. I can't believe my people are no better than the Cardassians. And also I'm in love with major cure. And I don't think I'm ready to give that up And who could blame him?
00:48:31
Speaker
and's say So there's that's what's going on there. Okay. So there was a lot of context I was missing, but I know he definitely, it seemed parallel to Garak's offer. to go home Exactly. And this was all the stuff that wasn't quite resonating with me as a child. So I want to save it to this point because I just didn't understand the nuances of that. Also, there is a degree of alienness going on here.
00:48:51
Speaker
I think two human beings could probably reach a certain level of understanding where there's some the anger is diminished. But I think when someone tortures you, it's kind of a hard thing.
00:49:03
Speaker
Maybe maybe it was um it was really uncomfortable for Odo, but it wasn't quite how human beings would interpret that. i mean he's got no organs, right? He was finally able to regenerate. So he had he basically was like sleep deprived was the torture.
00:49:17
Speaker
No, I think it was probably pretty bad. But to your point of growing up in, you know, Occupy, Bajor, whatever, wherever he actually was, maybe and also growing up as a lab experiment, like you said, maybe this wasn't his first time being tortured by somebody who later on he had to get work with or something.
00:49:33
Speaker
And probably versus the other because he resents his ah the doctor, the Bajoran scientist who studied him because he's like, well, you took my pain and your ignorance and your discovery and you made that as like your life's work and accomplishment and all these awards and celebrations of your ignorance.
00:49:53
Speaker
like was at my expense. So he's always resented him. um But here, I think you're absolutely right. Odo's confession is what finally ties them together.
00:50:04
Speaker
And it's like Odo the whole time actually to parallel it is warning Garrick of the very thing he was offered sort of at the beginning of the season. Remember in the in the last at the end of the last episode, he's like, Garak, this is the person who banished you. Just like Oda was banished by his people, even though they said that was an accident.
00:50:23
Speaker
You know what i mean Like there's a lot of there's quite a lot of parallels between the two of them. And I like that it's and just not called out. But as a 14 year old, I didn't because it wasn't called out. It wasn't quite clicking. I'm like, well, you tortured him. Why are they friends? I don't understand. Well, they definitely would have done that today. Today, they would have explained it ad nauseum. So you would not have missed it.
00:50:43
Speaker
They would have said it many, many times. And at the very end, they would have been sipping tea or something like that, overlooking the promenade saying, wow, it's so amazing how our lives are parallel. Isn't it? It really is.
00:50:54
Speaker
were offered chance to home and so was I know, right? Yeah. We've established that then this is better. And then some here's some empirical evidence that the old ways were better in some ways. In some ways, sometimes, yeah. and And also to the point how the episode ends that they have lunch sometime.
00:51:12
Speaker
I cannot think about a moment in season three, which doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But season four very clearly has a scene where they're eating lunch together. And because I didn't understand the context of this,
00:51:26
Speaker
The season four opener where Worf joins the show before he joins the show. There is a scene where Odo and Garrick are at the replimat and they're having lunch. And Odo is explaining that even though he doesn't eat, he still has a drink with him or eat something and he just mimics it so he can make the other person feel comfortable. And Garrick's like very thoughtful.
00:51:47
Speaker
but I always like, why is the scene happening? And it's because my stupid teenage brain just did not connect that this scene, Matt, that that moment between them mattered at all.
00:51:58
Speaker
Because I just anyway, so that's what's going on. Yeah, that was a great that was a great moment, though. i really appreciated that. And. one One of the lines that goes along with that, which my second to last one, is when Garrick says, do you know the sad part, what the sad part is, Odo?
00:52:13
Speaker
I'm a very good tailor. And it just was kind of like, I don't know, that line just broke my heart. Because it was like, I've been living a lie as a tailor when I'm really like a banished spy. but I'm actually really good at being a tailor.
00:52:25
Speaker
Like, can I just be that? Can I be that without being other things? Can I be that without being my past? Can I be that without being the banished one? um That was a good line with a lot of, I feel like with a lot of emotion behind it.
00:52:38
Speaker
And then the last one is from the Admiral to Cisco, where he says, if you pull a stunt like that again, I'll court martial you or promote you. Either way, you'll be in a lot of trouble. And I felt like that is the Starfleet A.
00:52:51
Speaker
Yeah. that's That was the one great line I had in the episode. Oh, you only had one. um that was the And that is the first real power-up that Sisko gets.
00:53:04
Speaker
like That was a pretty significant moment of Sisko just being treated like Picard or Kirk where he does something brash and Starfleet directly says, wink, wink. Good job.
00:53:19
Speaker
You should have done that. Good job. You shouldn't have done that, but definitely do that next time. There's a lot of bullshit around Avery Brooks being the lead of this show, just like there was with Kate Mulgrew being lead of the show. And we can understand why.
00:53:32
Speaker
And I think Ira Bear taking over once he knew that, oh, no one's no one gives a shit what we're doing over here. Like then they just started doing what they wanted always wanted to do. Like Avery Brooks is finally allowed to shave his head and grow facial hair from this point on. You know, all that stuff's going on because they really were focused on making Avery Brooks look non-threatening.
00:53:54
Speaker
You know, and so I would think that would extend to don't make him too authoritative, too bossy, you know, those kinds of things. But all your lines that you mentioned are great. And I got to say, though, this is going to make me sound really dumb.
00:54:06
Speaker
they To me, they were great for their time because they're kind of like airport thriller level novel writing of lines. Plus,
00:54:17
Speaker
I've just heard them so many times. So they've lost their impact. I'm so glad you're watching these because it's like, yes, these are the lines that people remember about Garrick, how Garrick contains multitudes.
00:54:29
Speaker
You know, he can be this devious guy. He can have all these lies, say some awful things, but then also really hit you with the emotional stuff. So that was the power of of Deep Space Nine writing.
00:54:41
Speaker
And i I'm glad that I'm seeing it again through your eyes. Thank you. Would this episode have been a fun holo novel to play out? I put no thanks. yeah There's no role that would be fun. Even being on the Defiant would be extremely frustrating with the sabotage and then sitting around waiting to for it to not be sabotage and then going into danger and being shot at.
00:55:00
Speaker
Yeah, there's like no there's no role in this whole episode that'd be like, oh, that would be fun. So two I agree with you to the point about me being a 14 year old boy watching this though.
00:55:12
Speaker
I mean, it still resonates for me and maybe it does for you. The Defiant's so cool. It's so cool. Being able to fire rapid phasers like that, of what's like an eye-opening moment when that happened. The first time you see the the fire open fire, it's like, oh my God.
00:55:27
Speaker
So you would play exactly one scene in this entire holo novel, and then you'd be done with the rest of it. I'm good. I destroyed one Dominion ship. I'm good.
00:55:37
Speaker
One Jem'Hadar fighter. The Antiochian Award for Best Performance. I gave that to Garrick. Yeah, let's go with Andrew Robinson as Garrick, for sure. That's great. ah The Shatner then.
00:55:50
Speaker
I gave that to Odo as mummy. His Shakespearean pain for torture. He said it himself, Rene Abortionois Odo.
00:56:01
Speaker
He was channeling King Lear there. ah Shoot to thrill, most exciting image or sequence. Also Odo as the mummy. That was like, we already mentioned that. That was like so shocking.
00:56:13
Speaker
um It wasn't beautiful. Usually I pick things that are beautiful in this category. It was not beautiful, but it was very shocking and memorable. And then um the whole end with the the whole battle, the whole space battle.
00:56:25
Speaker
I went with the battle. I put the Cardassian's last stand with explosions and fire and smoke and stuff. And then Odo knocks out Garak and puts him over his shoulder. That was cool. And then there was a firefight, like everything about it. I was like, ooh.
00:56:40
Speaker
We've also never seen a Romulan Dideradex class ship take it on the chin But it was fun watching the Cardassian ships. Like, yeah, the how did these how does the Cardassians present a strong force with their annoying little ships?
00:56:54
Speaker
And then the Jem'Hadar just absolutely rinses them. But if you notice the ship that had the changeling on it, they were just attacking the thrusters, the nacelles of the Romulan ship instead of like attacking it directly. Did you notice that? and Nope.
00:57:08
Speaker
What part of this will you teach at Starfleet Academy? I have a lot here. Okay, great, because I have one thing. And the one thing is there's no honor among thieves. That should always be a lesson. ah Basically, this ship is full of spies and traitors. And of course, they turn on each other because of course they do. They can't be trusted by anyone.
00:57:25
Speaker
That is their job to not be trustworthy. So this is this is something, young Padawans, you should definitely learn in Starfleet that if you're going to hook up with a crew of traitors or spies or liars, don't be shocked if you get...
00:57:38
Speaker
um Betrayed. Betrayed. Yes. Lie to. And yeah, spied upon. Don't don't be shocked. So I put my three were the chain of command.
00:57:52
Speaker
They will teach that Eddington is just following a superior's order, but he also operates within Cisco's chain of command. So he did. He fulfilled his order yeah of preventing sabotaging if necessary. i'm sure the order was if necessary, sabotage the Defiant so that it cannot complete its its attempted mission. Yeah.
00:58:15
Speaker
And then Eddington uses the honor of being a Starfleet officer to basically say, i was following this order, but I will follow your orders because I have completed my mission. And Cisco.
00:58:27
Speaker
perhaps controversially does not kick Eddington into an airlock or out of airlock airlock. But this is an interesting setup and I don't know how much they do. I love when you do that. Uh, I don't know how much of the setup this is for the ultimate turn with Eddington.
00:58:45
Speaker
It might actually be, I could have my timelines confused and the Eddington betrayal happens much sooner than I think. I really can't remember. um But, you know, Cisco is saying, I put a lot of faith in people wearing that uniform.
00:58:58
Speaker
Yeah. And there's the final episode with Eddington, I believe is called for the uniform. It's about Cisco being on a revenge quest to hunt down Eddington because he betrayed the uniform.
00:59:11
Speaker
So this sets that up. that goes that journey That goes back to my point. No honor amongst thieves. Like if he can't, and he doesn't know what he believes. Yeah. So we shouldn't be surprised when he's wishy-washy when he was just wishy-washy.
00:59:24
Speaker
And like my eye roll, when you just said like he follows Cisco's orders after following the Admiral's orders matched Major Kira's eye roll. When Cisco was like, well, I trust you because you're wearing that uniform. Go take your station. It's like, no, I don't trust you. You just betrayed my trust.
00:59:39
Speaker
Get off my ship. And when we get back to DS9, you will be transferred somewhere else. Give us a different security person. I don't like this one. I want to read. Well, he, you know, Cisco being in the command position, i agree with you.
00:59:52
Speaker
Cisco being in a command position, however, probably puts him in a place of like, I understand the conflicting nature of what was going on here. He's correct. I do need all hands on deck. Like we can't afford to have someone here.
01:00:07
Speaker
if If I can trust what he's saying, then we're going to fix the ship and be on our way. And he's like to be able stab. We're also going to be watching his ass. Well, and maybe he just trusted that Eddington also didn't want to die. Yes. Because they're like, they're sitting ducks.
01:00:22
Speaker
Right. In the Gamma Quadrant at this point. With Jim Hadar fighters coming any second. Right. An underrated ah bit of convincing people to do stuff is the threat of death.
01:00:32
Speaker
And I think sometimes people watching stories or don't remember that. Like, why is someone doing that? Like, you know, there they could die. Yeah, they could all die. That's pretty good motivator, to be honest. Which is really a motivator for not sabotaging it in the first place or sabotaging it before they went through the freaking wormhole, dude.
01:00:50
Speaker
I just can't imagine in professor Tilly though, teaching chain the chain of command. Like I can just imagine her having a meltdown. She's like, but if you get conflicting orders and it's against one of your best friends, I don't know what you do, but you have to help your friend. when it just ignore the orders It doesn't really matter who's in charge. It just matters who your friends are. yeah' right Just go rogue. all that mr rogue yeah
01:01:17
Speaker
Oh, professor Tilly. Yeah. I think they'll teach about the cloaking device. One of the weirdest line straddling things that Star Trek does is that we know all about the cloaking device. We could cloak anything we want at any time, but the Treaty of Algeron prevents us from doing it.
01:01:37
Speaker
So I like the idea that Starfleet might even teach the whole technological aspect of the cloaking device. Cloaking 101, here's exactly how you make a cloak. Here's the DIY version on YouTube. Let me tell you. Yeah, exactly.
01:01:52
Speaker
And then, you know, and so that you can imagine like people cloaking their stash from Starfleet security. Well, there's there's that scene there's that there's that scene in Prodigy where they're learning about like time travel, right? Like there's a time travel. right And it's all about it's all about don't don't time travel because you're going to create all these paradoxes and mess all these things up.
01:02:11
Speaker
But if you really have to time travel, here's how to do it. Right. It's like a whole thing about how to time travel.
01:02:19
Speaker
And then my last one is let's talk about an Auburn Tane's plan. So the whole fleet decloaks simultaneously and fires.
01:02:31
Speaker
Some don't hang back. Do they have to decloak to fire? And also do they have to decloak to go through the wormhole? They have to. Yes, to do both. Okay. Okay. But they don't like have some stay cloaked.
01:02:42
Speaker
They don't approach it from different sides of the planet. They don't have some people stationed farther away in case the Jim Hadar fighters show up. In case there's any resistance, correct. It's ah kind of a cartoonishly severe underestimation of the opposing force.
01:02:58
Speaker
Well, he did think he was going to blast them out of the sky in their sleep. so But it's by that is born entirely on the back of one intelligence report. The time.
01:03:10
Speaker
The Defiant found them in the Omarion Nebula. That's it. That's the whole intelligence gathering operation. ah That is incredibly sketchy. So i think I think they would teach military strategy perhaps better than this. I don't know about this particular incident.
01:03:27
Speaker
Maybe in the history of the Dominion War, this would actually be one of those war precursors. But also... culturally soci sociologically they might teach about uh cultures that don't respect their elders and and combined with cultures that uh celebrate careerism because charise what's going on in this episode A boomer retires and gets bored of retirement and decides to come back and arrest control of the future from the people deciding.
01:04:05
Speaker
He decides to start a war. So he has something to do. Yeah. Instead of taking up golf like a normal person. We are seeing this today. This is what old people do when they lose their purpose.
01:04:16
Speaker
They're like, I'm going to start a war. if If I don't have a future, none of you do either. I'm taking you all with me. I'm taking you all with me. Yeah, that's, I i mean, Tane really was feel, like, it's very clear that in these two episodes that Tane was like, I'm bored.
01:04:33
Speaker
So I think if we start a war, not only will I have things to do, but I'll have all these little minions to command. It'll be like responsibility and significance and importance.
01:04:43
Speaker
And it'll give everybody, you know, a little jolt. And you're like, yeah, but it's also a war. Like lots of people die. Surely there's another way. Can you like invent some cool technology or something? I mean, there's got to be another way for you to something meaningful in the world. Let me try to do my taint impression.
01:04:59
Speaker
Nope, that's not how I work, Charisse. I intend to inflict misery on millions of people as often as possible. And Garrick just has to be like, you know, obedient little boy to be like, yeah, that's a great idea, dad.
01:05:14
Speaker
We totally should do that. Does that mean I get to come home? Okay, word it is. Foolish is the son who questions the source of his father's love. It should be enough to receive it.
01:05:27
Speaker
Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better? Oh, there was no, there was nothing like that in this episode. I didn't realize that until you just asked the question right now. There is no space. This episode could not have been hornier.
01:05:41
Speaker
And I don't know if it would have made it better. There is a weird moment. This is not a suggestion of any sexuality. Unlike what I was doing last week where i'm like, hey gay, gay, gay, Karen. So, That was not here.
01:05:54
Speaker
But the moment between Lovac and Garrick where Lovac stops Garrick after Garrick reports like ah nothing came up interesting in the torture. He's like, why do you care about this changeling so much? And obviously it's because we find out he's a changeling himself.
01:06:09
Speaker
It's such a weird moment. I'm not saying that that scene contained any sexuality, but it's so interesting how weird it was that it it create but just immediately creates in your mind like something is very off here.
01:06:25
Speaker
now i think knowing that the what the reveal actually helps out more, because before you're not sure what's going on, he seems very questioning. But Orser is playing him... as an odd duck.
01:06:36
Speaker
So I guess you could in that moment have made him a little more overtly sexual, I guess. That would have made the episode better because, like I said, it's already kind of a weird moment.
01:06:46
Speaker
I don't need Garrett calling out that it's strange that he's being psychoanalyzed by Romulan, which is funny. But just the oddity of that moment alone was like that was the queerest part of the episode, I guess. But no, there was no room for that.
01:07:00
Speaker
This was an intense torture sci fi battle. Mm hmm. Eddington making weird faces to show that he's duplicitous. There was simply no time for such horny shenanigans. He was he was doing the looking over his shoulder. Can they see me when I push this button?
01:07:16
Speaker
That's right. That's right. So Trek, marry or kill the dais cast. Oh, this one was easy. This was a marry for me. This episode was perfection. I agree. i only mentioned four great scenes, but this is one of those episodes where it's like every scene is good.
01:07:34
Speaker
there not really anything that you're like, that doesn't quite work. And imagine if they hadn't done this two-parter, we wouldn't have this masterpiece episode. We would have something that was very forgettable. Oh, yeah, there was this time they went in, they blasted some stuff, they came back out, whatevs, versus what we got here, which was like, I mean, so much. The space battles, the torture, the betrayal, but we're really friends, but we're really not, but we sort of are.
01:07:59
Speaker
It was great. Cisco is definitively the captain. yeah He's sort of within Starfleet's good graces now. He's not just on some random distant space station.
01:08:09
Speaker
um good Good job, everybody. Nice job, Michael Piller, for gifting them with the idea for the two-parter. Great job, Ira Bear, not bricking the shot when you get to take it.
01:08:20
Speaker
And Ron Moore writing a great script. And obviously the performance is Yeah, great visuals. Great, you know, yeah the zombie thing. I mean, not that we had the mummy thing. We had the space battle. We had the surprise twist with the changeling, which was great. We had the parallels between Garrick and Oda.
01:08:37
Speaker
There was a lot of layers in this two-parter that almost never was. David Livingston directing up to this point, the best episode of TV he's done. so And it only got better from there.
01:08:48
Speaker
Sharice, it has been... an honor and a privilege to pod with you this season of Trek, Marry, Kill. um I feel like thank you doesn't even really convey it. It's been so
Guest Interaction and Future Collaborations
01:09:01
Speaker
much fun.
01:09:01
Speaker
And i'm I'm just glad that you've done this. So thank you so much for being on the show, for checking in on Trek you're not familiar with and ah all your insight and going on the journey with Discovery with me, with Discovery.
01:09:14
Speaker
That was fun too. um Where can people find you outside of Trek, Marry, Kill? Well, people can find me on YouTube if you type in at the Sci-Fi Savage and you can join me every week for a live stream where we talk all things Star Trek.
01:09:28
Speaker
I also want to say thank you so much for having me on the show. It has been such a blast, so much fun. And thanks for introducing me to some episodes of shows I had not seen or had had not even thought about watching.
01:09:40
Speaker
Now I'm so excited to go into Deep Space Nine. So for all you DS9 fans, there's another fan coming your way. um Yeah, this has been this has been really, really fun. And this is not going to be our last time talking on a podcast, I am certain.
01:09:51
Speaker
But thank you so much for having me along for the journey. We're Trek Mary K-Pod on social media, trekmerrykillpod.com on the web. So until next week, TMK out. Bye.