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DS9: "The Adversary" (s3e26)
15 Plays50 minutes ago
FINALLY, CAPTAIN SISKO. It took the powers that be long enough to grant Avery Brooks the public role of Star Trek captain and it happens here in the finale of Deep Space Nine's underrated third season that really cemented what the show would become in the seasons to follow -- even before Worf got dropped into it. Bryan and Kristen wrap up the third season of DS9 and the third season of Trek Marry Kill. Hope you've enjoyed it!
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Transcript
Introduction and Teaser
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek, Merry, Kill. Changeling's Promotions Blood. Energize. enemy. I want that changeling found so powerful. The weapons array is activated. The ship's no longer under our control. So elusive.
00:00:16
Speaker
Could look like anything. So devious. Dominion is hoping to start a war. When the battle is over. Initiate auto-destruct sequence. The war has just begun. Don't you see? You've lost.
00:00:29
Speaker
On the next Star Trek Deep Space Nine.
00:00:39
Speaker
Trek, marry, kill.
Podcast Introduction and Theme Month
00:00:46
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Kristen. Welcome to Trek, Marry, Kill, a Star Trek podcast that's getting jumpy in its old age. All month long, our theme has been DS9's Season 3 Leap Forward, and I never figured out a better title for it than that.
00:01:00
Speaker
But it's a theme yeah it's a theme month intended to show off episodes of Star Trek Deep Space Nine that showed the leap in quality it took during its third season.
The Defiant's Role in DS9
00:01:10
Speaker
The season started off with the introduction of the Defiant, and so it's fitting to end our theme month with its season finale, which also features the Defiant heavily.
00:01:20
Speaker
And that's the third season finale, The Adversary. It's the 26th episode of DS9's third season. the It premiered in syndication June 25th, 1995. So it's now 30 years old. Yikes. old am I? How are we? 30 years. 35 the Yeah.
00:01:33
Speaker
how old am i how old are we
00:01:39
Speaker
there any other kind coup? hewit wolf and directed by alexander singer memory alpha describes it a federation ambassador brings newly promoted captain cisco orders to take the define on a patrol of the zaankketi border where a destabilizing coup has just taken place is there any other kind of coup
00:02:02
Speaker
Let me think about it. Stabilizing coups. Well, here's the thing. Some are like, this is going to stabilize it. Yeah, the CIA is like, let's do a coup. Okay.
00:02:15
Speaker
Stabilize the country. And you know what? Sometimes it doesn't work. But everything is not as it seems. Yes. But everything, Kristen, is not as it seems on this mission.
00:02:26
Speaker
That's because Federation Ambassador Krijensky is a changeling. there is no coup stabilizing or destabilizing. ah The Dominion is trying to get the Federation to start a war with the Zenkethi to destabilize the quadrant, and they've sabotaged the Defiant to accomplish their goal.
00:02:42
Speaker
Now there's a changeling among them, and the crew must find it before
Commander Sisko's Promotion Significance
00:02:46
Speaker
it's too late. But I declare this is not the most important part of the episode. It does not reflect the leap forward in quality. No, it's that Commander Sisko finally found finally receives a promotion to captain this is captain cisco's first adventure and it's a good one do you remember the first time you saw this one um no uh it could have been june 25th 1995. so now that i'm thinking about it that was i had just graduated eighth grade
00:03:21
Speaker
ah like three weeks prior. So I am definitely... That was the summer. Was that the middle of the OJ trial?
Personal Reflections: Summer of 1995
00:03:30
Speaker
I believe that was the previous year. Oh, the OJ trial. That was the chase.
00:03:36
Speaker
Oh, yeah. The OJ trial happened in my soft... That happened later. Maybe it was starting. it was starting. That's probably more correct.
00:03:48
Speaker
Hold on. Anyway. That was maybe not the summary. You can't just type in O.J. Simpson trial anymore, by the way. What AI is like. No, it's like, which which one?
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah. There's a lot. Okay. um The until October So was in the middle of this.
00:04:14
Speaker
I did remember watching of that summer, but it was also the summer I turned pretty or more to the point. It was the summer where I grew a mustache, grew a mustache and I got tan. And so how are you not tan before that, though?
00:04:31
Speaker
I was not outside as much. Oh, because I feel like you seem like i and i a person who actually does tan quite easily if you were outside. Correct. I was not. OK, no, you're correct. I was. Yeah.
00:04:43
Speaker
That's great. So ah that was that was what I remember about that summer. And then I had no ah anxieties about high school or anything like that. I wasn't like dreading it or anything. I was just enjoying the moment.
DS9's Legacy in Star Trek
00:04:55
Speaker
And that moment included Captain Cisco. ah The fact that my Star Trek show, my chosen family, I didn't inherit the original series of TNG g DS. That was mine.
00:05:07
Speaker
It's like, finally, they're they're making the cool captain cool and a captain. And this was also a very important episode in that. Here's Captain Sisko now. Great. And then it's a starship adventure.
00:05:23
Speaker
You know, it wasn't on the station. It was on the Defiant. And they gave the Defiant a bunch of new sets. And they really expanded it out. Like, this cool ship got cooler. these cool This cool character got cooler.
00:05:34
Speaker
The interiors look way bigger than what the outside of the ship looks like. Oh, yeah. It's the full house situation for sure. Yeah. Yeah, Full House, if anyone liked that show, that was probably, maybe those houses are like, what, 3,000 square feet at the most in San Francisco. And this one, you know, had endless floors and ah somehow a attic, even though there's a flat roof, it's outrageous.
00:06:02
Speaker
Everywhere he look, there's more house. It's unbelievable. And a basement. Yeah. So some concepts and themes where we get into the notes and then the grades, but like the black man not being a captain from the start.
Casting and Racial Representation in Star Trek
00:06:14
Speaker
What's up with that? It is outrageous.
00:06:17
Speaker
They did the same thing with Discovery. They premised it of like, it'd be cool if we started a show and we watch someone become the captain, which, OK, maybe I can deal with that. But it's like you already did it with the black lead in your show.
00:06:32
Speaker
Why did they do that? And they, you know, Captain Janeway, the white woman, she's a captain coming out right away. But no, Cisco, it's got to be a commander first. then Then Avery Brooks can't wear his hair like he normally does. He can't have the goatee.
00:06:47
Speaker
So they were like... basically limiting the show, handicapping it ah from the start. What's up with that? Yeah, i don't know. I mean, I mean, I can tell you what's up with it, but I yeah, I think it's we don't have any more insight than we can't just make him a black captain from day one. The theme of this month and this episode like indicates a couple of TV business things.
00:07:15
Speaker
One, racism. Yeah. And that white executives have an issue when their progressive seeming shows actually follow through on their messaging.
00:07:26
Speaker
The other one being that in the business, sometimes shows make a leap though. Like it some, a lot of TV shows, it does. And some jump the shark. And some jump the shark.
00:07:37
Speaker
which is kind of like a bell curve. I think some shows can make the leap like happy days. I think actually made the leap, right? When Fonzie joined, like became a focal point, the show took off.
00:07:48
Speaker
Well, yeah, they lived early seasons or it's like just based, it's like about Mrs. and Mr. Cunningham and it's boring. Although there is like lot of social issues. They tackle like people not wanting black people in the neighborhood, even, even to visit, even as the captain of a ship. Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:06
Speaker
But it's boring. Yeah. Never, never cared for happy days. I have like, you know people have face blindness. I have like nostalgia blindness for the fifties.
00:08:19
Speaker
So anytime, yeah anytime I see anything associated with that. And by the way, when you're growing up in the eighties, you know, the old folks were hammering the fifties back to the future. Like all that stuff. I'm like, Nope. It's white noise.
00:08:31
Speaker
Oh, And it was, all it was like 30 years prior. yeah And if you think about that, this is like us just being like, well, the nineties, man, everything like, like this, like our own podcast, I guess, but like more but like deferential.
00:08:46
Speaker
Yeah. I'm not like devoted to it. And it's like the nineties were, we also don't treat it like it was so, so long ago. Like they treated the fifties. Yeah.
00:08:58
Speaker
um So shows
DS9's Growth and Comparison to Other Shows
00:09:00
Speaker
making the leap. That's a big deal. I think I, I honestly do feel in, at least in our show and rewatching it, deep seas time was pretty good for the first two seasons.
00:09:09
Speaker
Season three is where, you know, but that's 52 episodes. That's close to 50 episodes. It's more like 40 something ah before it gets into this place where it starts to find its groove in season three.
00:09:22
Speaker
That's too long now. you can't do that these days. Just to give an example, Strange New Worlds has only produced 30 episodes in three seasons. So, you know, it's just, know, we got some different differences going on here.
00:09:35
Speaker
But just want to point out, I really think this show is one of those shows. And Voyager, I think, kind of also around season three. There's a lot of good in season two as well, though. So you can see that if you look for that. The Americans is another show where season one was pretty good.
00:09:50
Speaker
Season two started to really step up, though. Like it they can do the leap. It's kind of fun. and I love the Americans. It's amazing. And the Americans is so good. It has an entire filler season.
00:10:06
Speaker
Season six is such a waste of time, but you know what? I watched it and I was like, yeah, it's fine. That's right. I'm sure if I watch it in like a binge, I'm like, that wasn't bad. That's pretty good. Like...
00:10:18
Speaker
There are a couple of parts of the Americans that are just so funny to me. Like when Phil gets a page that Yaz album and she's playing it outside when, ah yeah, it's just really funny. And then like, I know there's so many funny things in that show and also just good things in general. But yeah, first if you haven't seen it, I won't spoil anything for you.
00:10:38
Speaker
Also, you will watch Keri Russell and and Jonathan. Matthew Rhys. Matthew Rhys fall in love in the show because they they do. And it's pretty hot. And apparently like her husband at the time was like, she's like yeah, I'm in love with this guy. And he was like, oh, you know what? Great for you guys.
00:10:57
Speaker
I'll just step away.
00:11:01
Speaker
was it sky i didn't know that. Yeah, she was married. That's funny. ah The working title of this episode was Flashpoint.
00:11:11
Speaker
In the Deep Space Nine Chronicles intro, it is stated that the episode was untitled until a contest was held and the adversary was selected. i did not go and research this any deeper, but I wonder the mechanics of that, how they arrived with the contest was, how did they not spoil the episode? I'm not sure.
00:11:29
Speaker
Anyway. Yeah. From the Deep Space Nine companion, the producers had initially planned to do a show that had a cliffhanger ending involving changelings on Earth. This would wind up becoming the the two-parter, I believe, in the next season, ah Paradise Lost.
00:11:44
Speaker
ah And they didn't do that. Oh, Homefront in Paradise Lost. They didn't do that because the Paramount producers were like, Paramount execs were like, no cliffhangers, Deep Space Nine.
Worf's Introduction and TV Industry Decisions
00:11:56
Speaker
Now, why did they do that, Kristen? Because they were very close to canceling Doopsace 9. Yeah. They were like, you need to figure out how to relaunch this show because it's not going to last much longer with these ratings.
00:12:07
Speaker
And that's why we get the pivot to Worf. I do like that the desperation for Star Trek is pivot to Worf. Yeah. Pivot to video of its time. And I saw like an interview. i think it was like at ah at a con. Yeah.
00:12:20
Speaker
where Michael Dorn was like, well, I was like, oh, I don't really want to do Star Trek anymore. like I just don't want to put on that makeup anymore. And then he's like, wait, you want to pay me how much per episode?
00:12:32
Speaker
Yeah, OK, I'll do it. I remember an interview he did with the Trexperts, the Inglourious Trexperts. He said his one regret is he didn't like mandate a number of episodes that had to be about Worf.
00:12:43
Speaker
That was his only regret about that. But it all worked out. The rifles used in this episode of the first rifles ever seen in Star Trek, which actually have a trigger. Interesting. The character of Michael Eddington was delivered.
00:12:55
Speaker
Yeah. The character of Michael Eddington was deliberately set up as a red herring in this episode. The writers felt that the way actor Kenneth Marshall had betrayed to portrayed the character in The Search ah Part 1 and 2 and the Dias cast, that's the episode where he sabotaged the Defiant, had always implied some kind of underlying threat, so they decided to use that to their advantage in the episode.
00:13:15
Speaker
Of course, it'd later be revealed that Eddington was a member of the Maquis. I've always... contended that the casting of, say, Eddington and later Daniels of these kind of effete male pattern baldness dudes in what is ostensibly tough guy roles is a odd choice.
00:13:37
Speaker
Like it the incongruity between what the role is suggesting and the actor they've cast never seemed to fit. And I understand that when you've got Avery Brooks as your lead, he's so powerful, right?
00:13:49
Speaker
That it'd hard to like cast a macho guy too. But they did it. You know, he Cisco has friends. There's admirals. There are people that can go head to head with him. And it just seemed like Eddington was such a like a like a wimp, even compared to like Chief O'Brien and done dear that it's like this guy's supposed to be a tough, cool security guard.
00:14:10
Speaker
I don't know if I buy that. Like it was very strange. He always was wormy. So maybe it's no. he Yeah, he absolutely seems like I don't know if I want this guy on my team.
00:14:21
Speaker
That's right. I guess if you're you're casting for that... He's a little shifty and like and like untrustworthy. I guess the the thing is, like the casting is obvious, right? And it seems like you'd want it to be a little bit of a surprise?
00:14:34
Speaker
Instead, it's pretty obvious. Like, oh yeah, it makes sense that that wormy-looking guy would betray a Yeah, squirrely-looking
Character Arcs and Plot Twists
00:14:40
Speaker
guy over there. guy who probably wouldn't want to drive you home late at night or whatever, but...
00:14:47
Speaker
He's our security officer. All I did was offer to open the door. ah Let's see. The fight between Odo and the Changeling at the end of the episode was extremely complicated to put together due to all the more. Yeah, I could tell. yeah that really That was like watching um a computer that was maybe two generations too old trying to process some 4K video.
00:15:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Producer Steve Oster points out that the that there are more morphing effects in this in the short scene, the final fight, than the entire third season.
00:15:19
Speaker
I believe it. I yeah, there has to be. Ira Bear sees this episode as an important step in the show's movement towards serialization, which would reach a peak in the six episode arc, which opened season six and the nine episode 10 hour arc, which acted as the finale of the series itself.
00:15:38
Speaker
Quote, the adversary was the first one where we really knew we were going to be starting to get the S word serialized just a tad. In spite of all the finger wagging and knowing we weren't supposed to, it was just a little bit, a little bit.
00:15:51
Speaker
um And then, of course, with the introduction of Worf, they have to kind of put it on pause, hu which we talked about last when we did the season two finale, that they did have all these plans with the Dominion. And because the ratings didn't hit, they had to kind of put a place them on pause.
00:16:07
Speaker
So this episode is the last time we see the old slow theme song. And the last time we see commander Cisco Cisco with hair on his head and Dr. Bashir actor Siddig L. Fadil's name in the credits.
00:16:19
Speaker
He changed his screen name to Alexander Siddig for season four and beyond. Uh, but we do get three new Defiance sets. Stage name, right? That's right. Stage name. Thank you. Uh, did use, he probably changed his screen name, his AOL screen name too. We don't know. Sid dog, uh, one seven Oh one. Yeah. Yeah. Uh,
00:16:38
Speaker
dog spell d-a-w-g but uh he would keep sitting el fadil when he directed an episode later on but that's like a guilt thing so i'm sure yeah well ah we do get three new defiant sets however the bane engineering mess hall and extended corridor sets are introduced in this one all right shall we get into the grades sure right great scenes Okay, so the opening promotion scene, i just like that Jake is there and everyone's just like having a good time.
00:17:10
Speaker
yeah and everyone's like, you know what? This is well-deserved. It's about time, damn it. Yeah. O'Brien completely betraying Captain Picard. He's like, you're already the best captain of the fleet. I know.
00:17:25
Speaker
But it's true. O'Brien, his loyalties were always first. It was, um you know, in the wounded, it was his previous captain. And then it's ah it's now it's Captain Sisko.
00:17:36
Speaker
He likes being with a wartime captain. yeah it was and also picard only knew his favorite transporter room right he didn't know anything personal about the guy they just i don't know they just made all that garbage up for that episode though uh what else do you have um i do like seeing captain cisco in an actual captain's chair on a ship Yeah, it's pretty great.
00:18:03
Speaker
so He's like immediately a captain, right? He's like, oh yeah, he's
Suspense and Intrigue in 'The Adversary'
00:18:08
Speaker
this guy's always... He was already flying that thing anyway, but like commanding that ship anyway, but now he's officially the captain.
00:18:15
Speaker
um So I do like the Poirot scene of one of you is the saboteur. could be any one of us. No one leaves until we figure it out.
00:18:28
Speaker
Um, yeah, that's just classic, like Agatha Christie stuff. Yeah. So I had Dax scanning people on the bridge, looking for the Tetrion particles because the changeling would have an imprint on there.
00:18:39
Speaker
And that's where we find out Krijansky's the changeling. It's not even him though. That's right. Right. Krijansky either it was dead or, you know, yeah yeah I mean, i don't have it anywhere else, but at the very end, I'm going, well, we think he might've been kidnapped or killed. We don't know. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:59
Speaker
uh anyone gonna find out no no um cisco will 100 blow this ship up rather than start a war yeah we're used to seeing that from captain kirk but yeah it's nice to see it from the new captain Um,
00:19:19
Speaker
so the, the part where the changeling grabs the yellow shirt by the neck and slams them with his like tentacle and like slams them against the wall yeah to incapacitate him. I was dying. I thought that was very funny, but I liked it.
00:19:35
Speaker
I'm going to spoil. That's one of my best trick tropes because ah so guy that stunt guy is all throughout the TNG era, Dennis Madelone. ah So that that was a great Dennis Madelone stunt.
00:19:50
Speaker
um I had Odo and Eddington in the Jefferies too. hu they've They're firing these modified phasers, which is heating the air. So he's sweating and he's kind of trying to like be personal with Odo being like, how come you're not sweating?
00:20:05
Speaker
Don't you ever sweat? No, I don't.
00:20:11
Speaker
It's the modified phaser beam. It's heating up the air.
00:20:17
Speaker
You know, this would be a lot easier if we knew where he's hiding. Where would you be if you were him? I wouldn't know. I'm not
00:20:30
Speaker
He is one of your people. Can't you put yourself in his position? Try to anticipate his next move? I've thought about it. But the truth is, don't understand my people all that well.
00:20:47
Speaker
That's too bad. Yes, it For all of us.
00:20:56
Speaker
I'm not really an Eddington fan, and but I also think that is like one of the best scenes he's ever been in And the actor played him pretty straight. Kenneth Marshall played him pretty straight. And don't know, he was...
00:21:08
Speaker
empathetic sympathetic to Odo. Yeah. It was a good Odo scene because Odo to me always, you know, Rene Abortion while always plays him like he's having a toothache and doesn't like to be questioned. But here he's like being very honest. because them ah Yeah. Yeah. yeah And he's like a lot of self-reflection and stuff.
00:21:24
Speaker
Yes. It was like a nice emotional beat ah with an and ah a pair that's not very obvious. Although to be fair, that I'm thinking about it, uh odo liked likes eddington more than he liked wharf because eddington was much more orderly about security in the way that odo is whereas i don't know if you remember this but when wharf comes aboard d wharf and odo butt heads because wharf is like this is not how i would run security and odo's like i don't give fuck how you run security wharf is like why don't we you know shoot shoot him or whatever but it's worse for that kristin
00:21:59
Speaker
Odo goes, I went through the Enterprise's records and you let these spies on board. You let this happen. i don't think you were a good security officer. board It's pretty great.
00:22:11
Speaker
Shut up. Yeah. ah Any other great scenes? i have one more. I know. the The blood test scene in the mess hall. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah yeah So it's great.
00:22:24
Speaker
ah I think i'm I was patting myself on the back for being able to tell the difference between fake Bashir and real Bashir the whole time. What was the tell? The smirking?
00:22:35
Speaker
It was like so obvious. Yeah. Yeah. This is going to come up later in one of the grades for me, to be honest. Yeah. All right. Best Trek tropes. Oh, actually, hold on.
00:22:46
Speaker
So before we get down to best Trek tropes, I do want to say that I'm highlighting kind of mate we've kind of talked about maybe 60 percent of the episode is great scenes. Like all these scenes take place in the first 60 percent.
00:22:57
Speaker
It's kind of hard to, there's such a tension throughout the episode once the changeling infiltration happens that it's kind of hard to be like, what's a great scene? But the vibes in this episode are immaculate from start to finish.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's like a pro, it's like a Agatha Christie thing of like, whodunit, it could be any of us. If you're separated for even a minute, it could be the changeling. And then because Avery Brooks, captains he's such a captain, like immediately, like, yeah, this is a
Leadership and Ethical Dilemmas in Starfleet
00:23:25
Speaker
ship. This is the way it's always been. And then it's kind of a bummer. It's like, oh, on his first mission, his captain has got to blow up the ship and die.
00:23:30
Speaker
so Yeah. is that going on All right. Best Trek tropes. Our last commander's log, but our first captain's log. Woo. Yep. That's great.
00:23:42
Speaker
And I have also even Odo is impressed that Cisco got like he believes that it's warranted that Cisco was promoted to captain. Yeah.
00:23:54
Speaker
Cisco likes baseball. Oh, yeah. Got 1964 World Series mention, I believe. Cardinals over the Yankees. yeah So when when O'Brien hears some stuff in the Jeffries tube and then he's like, oh, Julie, what are you doing here?
00:24:11
Speaker
And, je you know, fake Bashir says, oh, yeah, I'm going to I'm just, you know, doing some medical blah, blah, blah. Chief O'Brien is like, well, I'm going to have to check his work when he leaves.
00:24:24
Speaker
right Well, I put the best Trek trope for me in that moment was just Bashir, fake Bashir mentioning the Starfleet engineering extension. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
00:24:35
Speaker
And even though it's a changeling who knows some of Bashir's actual biograph bio, it's kind of funny that it's, even though O'Brien checks his work, that he still doesn't question like, or he does say, he's like, that must be some extension course. Yeah. He took up a console to ah a starship. Yeah. He's not suspicious to O'Brien.
00:24:55
Speaker
That's how good the extension courses are. That's great. I even had right away. Oh man, we're really syncing up here as we do many of these episodes. What else do you have? Is Odo the only good cop?
00:25:09
Speaker
um He talks about how he doesn't like to, he's never had to shoot anybody. and never found it necessary his entire time of being a humanoid security officer.
00:25:21
Speaker
And that's before he and Eddington go away. And i I actually think that that's what makes Eddington be like, well, this can't be the changeling. like Yeah. but he's It actually softens him. yeah That's great. I like that. That's a good best truck trope actually is the nonviolence aspect.
00:25:37
Speaker
I have it as preserving the peace. Like you said, the self-destruct thing where Cisco's like, well, we're not letting, we're not starting a war. and so, yeah, what, to what end or is a Starfleet officer going to go to preserve the peace? And Odo's not even a Starfleet officer.
00:25:49
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I have a few. Okay. I already mentioned the Dennis Madelon stunt. Actually, already said preserving the peace. Yeah, is it's great.
00:26:00
Speaker
welcome It's a lot of fun. If you watch nothing else but that, you gotta, like... like Oh, actually, I think I missed um one of my scenes, but like just before that, they're like, well, if we just shoot these phaser rifles down the tubes, down every hallway, we'll find the changeling eventually, which I find very funny.
00:26:23
Speaker
Right. like We'll just start shooting at random. But then that happens like very quickly after it. I'm just like, ah this is great. There he is!
00:26:34
Speaker
Shoot him! Yeah. then the other one I had was aliens we've never heard of, but with whom the Federation has had a protracted conflict with. In this case, it's the Zenkethi who we don't see them, but we are told that the Federation had a long conflict with them. This is...
00:26:52
Speaker
almost exactly like the Cardassians when we meet them in the wounded. It's like there like a war and O'Brien has the whole backstory about Setlick three and like the massacre there. And it's like these aliens that like I'll put as a best trick trope because it's like a good reminder of space is vast.
00:27:09
Speaker
and And just because something's happening in the Enterprise corner of the galaxy doesn't mean that there isn't other stuff going on. So it's like a good way of introducing other elements there.
00:27:19
Speaker
does make you wonder like how big of but of a conflict was it. you know But it's also, I just i just like it. I remember very clearly watching this episode being like, wait, am I supposed to know who those are? but am I supposed to remember this? And it's, nope.
00:27:32
Speaker
It was just a thing they dropped in to tell the story. ah All right. Worst Trek tropes. The constant countdown to the auto-destruct sequence.
00:27:46
Speaker
Good call. That's a good one. um Also, not a single fucking person has can get a shot off at the actual ah changeling. Stunned for so long that the changeling could look like Dr. Bashir.
00:28:00
Speaker
they They're just staggered by two hotties? What? Yeah, like, whoa! Whoa!
00:28:08
Speaker
Oh no, two of them. Yeah, nobody... Everyone's a horrible shot.
00:28:14
Speaker
i At least they gave Sisko the hero shot of... He was shooting to kill. He just barred the bulkhead. But like... um And then I also have... Sorry.
00:28:27
Speaker
Do you have another one? i Also the... um The fake... pejoratives and slurs like the youth solids, blah, blah, blah. You know, and the changelings call them sought the people solids.
00:28:41
Speaker
Not a fan of that. All right. I don't like it's like. Usually over centuries of like Hatred between beings, you can usually come up with a good enough slur that's more invented than that.
00:28:57
Speaker
Like in Battlestar Galactica, they call them toasters. I just never watch that, so I can't comment on that. All right. um I put public domain music slash corny songs or sayings. So they sing for he's a jolly good fellow. And then for when Cisco gets his pip and then...
00:29:16
Speaker
Hip hip hooray? i have never been anywhere where people started singing for He's a Jolly Goodfellow. I might have when was young. Old people in the eighty s I think that's possible. I think just until... ever I've never heard hip hip hooray. That's not true either. And I don't think anyone knows more than five words from Lang Sykes.
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah, i had I'm not sure. i Also, worst trick trope, I don't know, for some reason, it's I've never jived with the obsession with pips on the collar.
00:29:54
Speaker
ah It's never, I don't know. Maybe I'm a, I'm in a minority here and it should be a best Trek trope. The discussion of pips, the placement of pips. I mean, Cisco getting his fourth pip is a big deal.
00:30:05
Speaker
So I'm happy about that. But ah you know, Eddington makes it a big point to talk about like people don't sign up for Starfleet because they want to be a commander. It's like, yeah, but people sign up for Starfleet for lots of reasons. This seems like a you problem, Eddington, but I don't know.
00:30:19
Speaker
So I'm just putting that out there. Any others? No. There weren't that many here in the and this for me. You had a good one, though, with the the countdown. I was like...
00:30:34
Speaker
ah Most cosplayable character or moment? I don't know how you would do it, but when the changeling is dying... Oh, that's pretty good. It's like just the worst looking makeup, ah like decrepit makeup. then it like it morphs into like a pool.
00:30:52
Speaker
I don't know how you would actually do that, though. Maybe the way to do it is to ah somehow have the Defiant Warp Core like on your back, like a backpack. And then you could kind of do it with the face and make it clear like I'm when he's leaning against the Warp Core.
00:31:09
Speaker
Yeah, I guess that's what I had. i kind of thought. That you could do Cisco in the dress uniform with the four pips there. I am talking about the pips. I'm talking about the pips. I don't know why, but those are, those are good ones.
00:31:23
Speaker
ah Yours is a good one. Now it's time for the line, Mr. John. Great lines. I'm just putting my engineering extension courses to work.
00:31:33
Speaker
Mentioned in Armageddon game in season two, bringing back. I've been a security officer most of my humanoid ah for most of my humanoid existence, and i' know and um and in all that time, I've never found it necessary to fire a weapon or to take a life.
00:31:50
Speaker
I don't intend to start now. That was Odo. Yeah, this is kind of like a stealthy, good Odo episode. Kind of weird. Yeah. Cisco.
00:32:03
Speaker
My son, the writer, thinks I should say something profound on this occasion. He even offered to write me a brief statement. I told him I'd take care of it myself, but as it turns out, the only thing I can think of is... Begin Captain's Log, Stardate 48960.9.
00:32:21
Speaker
i I got to tell you again, teenage me was just hooting and hollering and an adult me is still like, gosh, that's so great. It's exciting.
00:32:32
Speaker
And then Cisco talking to Eddington. I have the assignment I want. I have the crew that I want. The rank hardly seems to matter. And I don't know. He's just so comfortable. i don't know. It's just so obvious.
00:32:43
Speaker
I just, I still marvel at it to this day of like, yeah, this is so weird. It's Avery Brooks. He's the captain. And since money didn't exist, the bump in pay wasn't a big, you know, that's usually what most people are excited about.
00:32:58
Speaker
Great point. ah And also just being able to skim more off the top, your spoils of each trip, right? That's what the money is for. Would this be a fun hollow novel to play out?
00:33:12
Speaker
I think it could if you are do like to do the Poirot thing. Murder on the Orient Express type stuff. Yeah, if you're Sisko, I think so. if But also if you're the changeling and your job is just to sabotage and to stay hidden for as long as possible, that might work.
00:33:30
Speaker
Did you ever see Death on the Nile? The new one? Yeah. I've seen both the new ones, yes. And Armie Hammer, they had to cut around in the trailers. I remember that. Yeah, but he's still in the movie. But like, she is just...
00:33:46
Speaker
freaking out of control. Yeah, I know. ah So I am not... ah and then jump a fair denial I should have read these. I should have seen the original movies, but I never did.
00:33:58
Speaker
I liked Murder of the Orient Express. I liked his version of it just fine. But i had no idea what that story was, and I found the... the the mystery reveal to be absolutely heartbreaking and very upsetting. Yeah.
00:34:11
Speaker
And i was also similarly upset by his friend dying and also being like, I was with Poirot being shocked. It's like, no, what's happening. And then, but I also figured that I also figured what the twist was or, Oh, and then the third one I even saw, sorry, I'm confusing the two, which one was Tina fan.
00:34:31
Speaker
And I saw the, even the third, watch the third one. And was like, right. Yeah. What's the third one then? a haunting in venice oh that one was real dumb i didn't care for that one that much i liked it fine but yeah it was fine yeah i like them all like yeah it was fine i oh i completely forgot about that movie the anton caridian award for best performance kenneth branagh as the fuel proyro yeah ah I got to tell you, I'm bringing back what I said. this is going to come up later.
00:35:01
Speaker
That between Alexander Siddig's mugging and and Kenneth Marshall's worminess, I had a hard time figuring out who gave the best performance.
00:35:13
Speaker
I guess it's Avery Brooks. Oh, I actually said just because we don't really get many good Odo episodes, I i put. I'd go with that, yeah.
00:35:24
Speaker
ah But I mean, Avery Brooks is pretty good in this one. I mean, yeah as Cisco, he has been. But he's like always pretty good. Like we can give it to like yeah Patrick Stewart every time too. And we don't.
00:35:35
Speaker
Good call. All right. We'll go with Rene Abortion. All right. So then the Shatner. many many the The guy in blue, the blue guy
00:35:44
Speaker
ah The suspicious bullying who wants to shoot. He is at an 11, man. He's just like, uh. He is going to shoot everyone and then he gets punched in the face. And it's very funny. but i just think he doesn't like I don't think anyone apologizes to him either. no For thinking it was him.
00:36:01
Speaker
Everyone clocked him as an asshole right away. so ah ah That's a good one. So, shoot to thrill. Most exciting image or sequence? um I like the defiant in... in going at warp speed, I guess. I mean, is that am i is that the right way for me to do the category?
00:36:23
Speaker
It's whatever you want. An image can be like, we and when we were doing Discovery, there were certain artful shots of Discovery coming up on some spatial phenomena that was like, this looks objectively beautiful. So that's a shot.
00:36:35
Speaker
Or you can do a sequence, which I think is what I'm going to do. And it's not going to be the showdown of like, which one's the evil twin, which is kind of corny. But, and I love that chief O'Brien's just sitting there at the computer being like, i don't have time for this. but yeah That was fun.
00:36:52
Speaker
But I think the moment leading up to when Cisco's got the whole sequence, starting from the Odo Eddington conversation, which leads into the, the great stunt of the guy being slammed against the bulkhead Cisco having to pull two phasers on Kira and the bullion.
00:37:09
Speaker
And then it ends with Odo knocking the guy out. I think that's the the best sequence to me, the most exciting, because it really is like, oh, are they going to find him? And then it is confusing. And Cisco's even like, we have a problem because like any and one of us can be the changeling. So it I thought that was it. mean, doing the two Odo's thing of like, no, I'm the real one. That's right.
00:37:30
Speaker
No Yeah. Chief, remember when we blah, blah, blah? It's like, yeah, we Anyone could have known that. Yeah. but So what part of this will they teach at Starfleet Academy?
00:37:41
Speaker
If you cut off a piece of a changeling, it'll turn into goo. Yeah, remember that was the whole twist of Star Trek Picard Season 3. These are changelings that can pass that test.
00:37:54
Speaker
Oh, yeah. um And also the engineering nonsense. Where it was like... It looked like worms connecting into everything. It was gross. Oh, the technology, the changelings you used to hijack the ship. Sure, yeah.
00:38:09
Speaker
I'm going to say the lesson is what Cisco is exemplifying, which is keep the peace at all costs. Do not start a war. you that Even if that means sacrificing yourself to make sure that happens.
00:38:21
Speaker
like We have responsibilities in our life. We have to protect it with our life if necessary. Um, that's why he's the captain, man. He's got to make a decision. That's what comes down to.
00:38:32
Speaker
Could this episode have been hornier? And would that have made it better? i mean, it definitely could have been hornier. It could have been hornier. Like, if you were changeling, would you make yourself into some old dumpy, uh,
00:38:49
Speaker
Ambassador? No. I didn't put this as a worst trick trope, but I should have because I think this comes up sometimes. Verification of identity. So, like, as I'm to understand it, a Federation ambassador is traveling to Deep Space Nine on a ship, right?
00:39:04
Speaker
Is the ship sending a communique with the manifest? Is he sending a message? they're not He's not getting it through Starfleet channels anymore. You know what i mean? Like, it's a little questionable that they would just accept at face value that this guy is coming.
00:39:19
Speaker
He's had to have like dummied up some credentials, surely. Yeah. So I don't know, but it's, that's unclear. But anyway, um yeah, it could have been hornier in that way. It could have been a hornier ambassador.
00:39:32
Speaker
The Dr. Bashir could have tried to honeydick. Yeah. There's no honeypot at all. And there should have been. Yeah. um Would that have made it better, though? No. and No, no. I mean, i think there was enough action. we didn't need it.
00:39:45
Speaker
Yeah. I don't think this episode could have been horny. This is one of the few times i don't think it could have been. I think we're so caught up in the moment of like, it's Captain Sisko's time. Like, that's the focus. That it kind of doesn't.
00:39:57
Speaker
Now, he shows enough horniness when he talks about that baseball game. Yeah. He's like, I'm going show her Bob Gibson handling the Yankees, and I'm going to handle her. so Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:09
Speaker
Gonna seem real hot and bothered. That's right. So Trek, marry or kill the adversary. i really liked this episode.
00:40:21
Speaker
so I was considering giving it a marry, actually.
Episode Rating and Conclusion
00:40:25
Speaker
I'll join you. i think it's a marry. All right. I think this sets Deep Space Nine on...
00:40:32
Speaker
I think people were in love with this show beforehand. I was pretty close to being in love with it, but this is the one where it's like, okay, here we go. The minor cliffhanger of Odo going, they he whispered to me and said, everywhere, or whatever was. I didn't write it down. You're too late. We're everywhere. You're too late.
00:40:48
Speaker
Yeah. Exciting. A good, good end of season. said Hail Hydra or something. It was really weird. all right, so we've we've done it. We've wrapped up Season 3 of Trek, Marry, Kill with the Marry. That's a nice way to end the season. We started the season with the Marry.
00:41:07
Speaker
Kristen, it was past tense, part one. ah So Deep Space Nine just giving us a lot of Marrying goodness. ah We have... Now done.
00:41:17
Speaker
Now we finished three seasons of the show. We have actually wound up grading 251 episodes Wow. out of nine hundred thirty one episodes wow so That is that and number just keeps going up and up, doesn't it?
00:41:33
Speaker
That's right. So we we basically hit 27% of the series through our three seasons. As you can see, just there's there so much Star Trek. We are off the path of 30, 40, 30 here at the end of our season. Yeah, we are, aren't we?
00:41:48
Speaker
ah I think we're probably being a little too generous. It's like 25, 30, 40, 30. It's like 25, 50, 25 right People, you're liking Star Trek too much. can afford people you're liking star trek too much we can afford but More critical.
00:42:02
Speaker
um But this was an interesting season. We covered some discovery. We had some new co-hosts rotate in, which I thought worked out. And I'd like to take a minute to thank them.
00:42:14
Speaker
I'd like to thank Sharice, the Sci-Fi Savage, for coming in and really just embracing the format and exploring, doing the grades with episodes and shows she's never really seen before, which was really cool.
00:42:27
Speaker
Check out her channel on YouTube, the Sci-Fi Savage. We also had Katie Hampton coming in for our monthly animated spotlights on Lower Decks. Now it's like I said, Star Trek's religion, Kristen. Well, like Lower Decks is her religion.
00:42:41
Speaker
but i think I think I wore her down over time because by the end of the season, she was being like, I kind of see what you're saying. But still, she was a tough nut to crack. She only was willing to kill one episode of Lower Decks. And to be fair about Lower Decks, you know, a lot of those episodes are at the at the worst entertaining.
00:43:01
Speaker
You know, yeah that's been a lot of fun. I like to thank all the people that appeared for our Prodigy special episode as well to talk about the animated shows. ah So we had Marina Kravchuk and Charlene Schmidt from Roddenberry Network's ah Mission Log Prodigy podcast.
00:43:20
Speaker
Steve Shives from his YouTube channel. Jesse Gender from their YouTube channel to talk about the Marys of Star Trek Prodigy. You can go and listen to that to see which of the 40 episodes we thought were its very
Podcast Recommendations and Format Discussion
00:43:31
Speaker
best.
00:43:31
Speaker
If you haven't watched Star Trek Prodigy yet, please go watch it. It's a show... for seven-year-olds. It's TVY7, but it's really fucking good. and again, ah can't believe it because it's for kids and yet it's really good. Anyway, just want point that out.
00:43:49
Speaker
I'd like to also thank our other guests throughout the season. Michael Bauman, who returned to do The Inner Light. You can check out his Wheelie Sports, which covers professional cycling. He's also a writer at the baseball website Fangraphs.
00:44:01
Speaker
TV critic Diana Kang, who joined us for Section 31 and Also, The Price for TNG. She writes for Geek Girl Authority and many other places. The Crew of Enterprise explaining for their Carbon Creek appearance.
00:44:15
Speaker
Kristen, that is a fun Star Trek podcast format. So they are watching Enterprise, which I should agree a tough assignment right away. Mm-hmm. But how they handle each episode is one person will watch it and then explain it to the other two.
00:44:30
Speaker
And then the other two will comment. So it's really fun. It's a unique way of approaching Enterprise. Does it only work if the other two haven't seen it? Or is it like, oh, no, I think I saw this.
00:44:41
Speaker
No, it will only it it works best when the other two haven't seen it. i and I'm yeah sure that that that's the case, that that all of them are coming to it fresh. They're Star Trek fans to some degree. And does it like rotate the person who watches? Yes, exactly. no they then they rotate. And sometimes they'll guests on. I was a guest on their show.
00:44:59
Speaker
And sometimes the guests will be one of the people who hadn't watched the episode. And sometimes the guests will be someone who has watched it and explains it. so's Imagine me trying to explain an Enterprise episode to you.
00:45:10
Speaker
And they've they've changed their format slightly so that then they they do bi-weekly episodes, but now they've changed it to weekly. So what they do is then, so week one will be explaining it.
00:45:22
Speaker
Then the next week will be the people that had to explain to them, they've watched it and they give like their reaction actually now having seen it compared to how was explained to them, which is fun. ah Jordan Hoffman.
00:45:33
Speaker
film critic all over for his Ilan of Troyes episode. He was the one that basically said, look, if section 31 is a trick, then the Overton window on the quality of a Star Trek episode has shifted.
00:45:45
Speaker
And I agree. Yeah. I would also like to thank everyone who filled in for me.
00:45:53
Speaker
You guys saved me from watching so much stuff. I didn't want to watch primarily discovery. Or imagine me trying to like jumping into like season three of discuss discovery and trying to explain it to you.
00:46:07
Speaker
I would not, I would not be able to do that. so it like And then this person whose name i never caught says um blah blah, blah. And does a bunch of war crimes. Yeah. No, that's Strange New Worlds.
00:46:21
Speaker
discoveries They do war crimes on strain on Discovery. That was the inciting incident of Discovery. They oh ah calm it down. so but um I'd also like to thank Jesse from Crusher Conversation for coming on and talking about the host.
00:46:38
Speaker
Check out her channel. That's great. My ex-roommate, Corey, ah who came on to talk about The Perfect Mate with the Famke Johnson episode of TNG. g uh curtis fortier for his defiant appearance that was a lot of fun and of course i need to thank you kristin oh because without you there is no show when when i walk around on the street people say where's kristin how's she doing um you walk around on the street a lot do you
00:47:11
Speaker
No, I'm saying it's a high percentage. I'm rarely out on the street. So four out of five times in a month. and i go I am, I am almost immediately met with questions about how you're doing and, and how much they enjoy the show because of you, but also because of all these other hosts.
00:47:27
Speaker
We couldn't have done it without all of you. And of course the listeners have had great feedback all year. And so keep checking out the site where can continue to see our treks, marries and kills. um I think I might start posting to the webpage a little bit more um because I'm not sure what format this show is going to take in the coming years. I have a new project starting, so we'll see what happens with Jack Mary kill.
00:47:49
Speaker
It's a, it's hard to say, but we've certainly enjoyed doing it and everyone's support.
Star Trek's Influence on Storytelling
00:47:55
Speaker
There was cool being named Trek movies, best podcasts of 2024. And we hope we've been as entertaining here in 2025. Yeah.
00:48:03
Speaker
yeah
00:48:06
Speaker
Kristen, is there anything you want to tell the people out there? um I still like Star Trek. Oh, that's a great question. yeah Has this show ah altered your opinion of Star Trek in any meaningful way?
00:48:22
Speaker
I think it's just... mean, yes, I think it's really...
00:48:29
Speaker
sort of made me reevaluate some of the characters and storylines more than I had before. i like think about them more. Like there are some characters who honestly are kind of useless. And then there's some that like really are great.
00:48:46
Speaker
Yeah, I've found that I'm a little surprised by how much Star Trek just sticks to my bones still to this day. And doing so much of it, I still find myself ah having it on in the background as comfort food, or maybe I'm scouting episodes for the future, or just I'm thinking about one episode that we record and it reminds me of other ones. I want to kind of see if that thought holds up when I rewatch.
00:49:12
Speaker
That's been interesting. But also, you know, the world today... I hope people still get something out of Star Trek because i kind of feel like a lot of its messaging did not survive to the 21st century, which makes me kind of sad.
00:49:25
Speaker
But it's been nice to revisit the show to, i don't know, it doesn't feel like a lot of the stuff that it was talking about was hokey then, and it doesn't seem hokey now.
00:49:35
Speaker
It just seems like you're kind of standing proud in in the middle of a hurricane. And it's like, i I guess you could do that. But you should probably do something else.
00:49:46
Speaker
I will say that I got to watch, well, evaluate way more of the original series actually having to write down stuff about it than I ever would have normally. I mean, I would turn it on because it's on like one of our local channels just like during like in the evenings. And I'd just like watch it while I was doing other stuff or whatever.
00:50:05
Speaker
And even like the worst Star Trek, the original series episode is probably no worse than like any other series of the time. yeah like Even Spock's brain is like, it's bad, but it's not. It's like probably just as bad as like the worst Hogan's Heroes episode or whatever.
00:50:23
Speaker
ah Yeah, I think that's the thing that stuck with me. I think I mentioned this, like Star Trek is what inspired me to move to L.A. in the first place, wanting to work in TV and film. And and I think for a long time that to me, it was one of the gold standards of how you make the do something in the medium.
00:50:40
Speaker
Obviously, that's changed over time with all due respect to the people who work very hard to make these new shows. But I think that Star Trek is hard to make. It is very hard to make. For sure.
00:50:51
Speaker
um But it's yeah, this is such a crazy thing. We talked about it being it could have been a religion. and yeah, I still have that fervor. I can't lie. And Roddenberry being like, damn it.
00:51:01
Speaker
No one hovered. That's what I should have done. i still have that fervor. And I really am surprised even after all these episodes. So thanks for going along on the journey. So I don't know how to sign off other than thanks for listening. And we might be back.
00:51:15
Speaker
We may not. But in any case, TMK out. Bye.