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TOS: "The Tholian Web" (s3e9)
145 Plays16 days ago
WEB KIRK.O. Captain Kirk is dead! No wait -- he's a ghost! No... it's interspace! But, what's this? the crew of the Enterprise is slowly going mad? And now the ship is being surrounded by a web? Is this third season adventure a TREK, MARRY, or KILL?
The grades begin at (13:22).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Theme
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek, Merry, Kill. Webs, tears, interphase. Energize.
00:00:12
Speaker
Defiant. Fascinating. We see it, but our sensors indicate it is not there. Space itself is literally breaking up. The captain's neck is broken.
00:00:26
Speaker
Bonesworth, sir. Jim, this ship is dissolving. My hand just passed through a man and a table.
00:00:34
Speaker
You must accept the fact that Captain Kirk is no longer alive. Captain.
00:00:53
Speaker
There's nothing out there to grab a hold of and bring in. When that ship went, it must have taken the captain with it. What is that? It is an energy field. We shall not see home again.
00:01:15
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. I'm Kristen. Welcome to Trick, Marry, Kill, a Star Trek podcast that's Captain Kirk's final orders to Mr. Stock and Dr. McGill. Last week, we kicked off a new theme month.
00:01:28
Speaker
The Captain is dead! Sorry, I have to do it each time. And after Tapestry from TNG, we're continuing with the Tholian web from Star Trek, the original series. It's the ninth episode of its third season, and it premiered on NBC November 15th, 1968, written by Judy Burns and Chet Richards.
00:01:48
Speaker
They wrote it together. This is, I think, before the WGA rules were finalized and there was an ampersand when they were teams. Anyway, that's irrelevant. That's my own thing. The episode was and um directed by Herb Wallerstein, but not initially. And I will discuss that more later.
Plot Summary of 'The Tholian Web'
00:02:04
Speaker
ah Memory Alpha describes the Thelian Web as, while aboard the starship USS Defiant, Captain Kirk disappears when the dead ship gets pulled into interspace. While trying to effect a rescue, the Enterprise falls under attack by a mysterious local race called the Tholians.
00:02:21
Speaker
Kristen, was this the first time you saw this episode? No. I've seen this one before, but I don't remember when. I probably was already an adult, though. This was an episode I had seen...
00:02:33
Speaker
Out of the corner of my eye or maybe like occasionally on somewhere flipping channels and it maybe be seen a few parts of it. One thing i don't think I've ever mentioned from the beginning of Check, Married, Kill is like, I remember the original series, like one of my first memories is just Spock staring into that blue light.
00:02:50
Speaker
You know, so like there are certain episodes that kind of stuck around and Captain Kirk floating in inner space was definitely something i remember. And of course the Tholian web itself, the enterprise being surrounded by that was definitely an image that tracked throughout pop culture. But yeah, I don't think I form, I formally sat down and watch it start to finish until that, uh, flu bout where I almost will died.
00:03:12
Speaker
And I was like, better get through some of these episodes I've never really seen. um but yeah it's tough Yeah, I don't know if I can. People who are like, oh, I read a book while I was sick or something like that. I'm like, how did you do that?
00:03:27
Speaker
Doesn't sound like you're
Production Challenges and Costs
00:03:28
Speaker
very sick to me. So some production notes here before we get into the grades. Ralph Sinensky was the original director of this episode. ah He was fired, though, for falling half a day behind schedule.
00:03:39
Speaker
Now, that sounds dramatic, but maybe listeners of the show and longtime Star Trek fans know that Star Trek, the third season, was a hack job on the budget. Paramount had bought Desilu Studios and they were enforcing all their Paramount production designs like you have to shoot an episode in five and a half days they also cut the budget for Star Trek it was a mess and uh and Ralph Sinensky who was one of Trek's directors basically was like a sacrifice to that they had to make an example of him and he was the second of Star Trek's best directors to leave that season remember Spock's brain it was directed by Mark Daniels basically the best director in Star Trek and after getting through that experience he was like fuck this yeah I'm not coming back to Star Trek.
00:04:26
Speaker
Yeah. ah Ralph Sinensky, of course, is 101 years old and still with us. At least as this recording. I saw him at GalaxyCon last year. That was really cool to see him.
00:04:37
Speaker
If we could all be so lucky as to be as sharp and ah on it as he is. um So this was also the first episode to describe season three changes. with Al Francis as the director of photography, replacing Jerry Finnerman.
00:04:50
Speaker
Jerry Finnerman was basically a feature quality DP doing a TV show. Yeah. so the first two seasons saw the beautiful lighting and diffusion lens and all that stuff. They had no time for that in season three.
00:05:01
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I don't know if you noticed, Kristen, but especially in the transporter room, the walls have been painted purple hu to kind of cover for the fact that they couldn't do the normal Jerry Fenderman mood lighting.
00:05:12
Speaker
so they're like, what if we just painted the walls with color? There was a lot of painted walls in this episode. Yep. to cover for the lack of painting, painting with light that he was able to do.
00:05:24
Speaker
Uh, Nichelle Nichols described this episode and the trouble with tribbles as their two favorite. Uh, and the, and I think it's just because she got to do something yeah instead of just hailing frequencies open.
00:05:36
Speaker
She said she enjoyed anything that was able to get her out of her uniform. Okay. And then Judy Burns, who wrote the episode along with her friend, Chet Richards, who I believe wound up becoming her husband.
00:05:48
Speaker
She wrote it in college ah because she wanted to pay for a trip to Africa. and here's Back in the days when ah writing one episode of television could have funded a whole trip to Africa.
00:06:02
Speaker
It could today. Well... Like if you had like, um if you were a college student, I assume you don't have much other income. but That's true. ah She basically got her screenwriting professor to do her a favor. Her screenwriting professor had worked with ah Fred Freiberger, the showrunner for season three, and they kind of dug it out of the reject pile.
00:06:23
Speaker
And then they basically worked to put it all together. ah Probably also the budget cuts helped. it was a fortuitous set of circumstances. Yeah. Bring it this girl to do it. Has she heard of scale? Can we pay her less than Yeah, right. She just wants a trip to Africa. That's right.
00:06:38
Speaker
ah Several changes, though, were changed from their draft, the original draft being, in essence, nothing. That was the original draft of the script. ah Some of the changes were the Defiant was originally the USS Scimitar.
00:06:51
Speaker
The Tholian Loskine was originally named Losine. That doesn't really matter, but I wanted to bring that up because the voice of the Tholian... scheme is uncredited and it's Barbara Babcock our favorite Kristen our girl Barbara Babcock the woman who who asked Spock how old he thinks she is and just says 35 and she's upset about it and he's right or like no she's a little bit younger right that's right that's right I stopped aging when I was 30 or something then she's upset yeah it was great
00:07:27
Speaker
The crew and the original draft wore, quote, life support shields or personal force fields. Which I think is really interesting because that's what they wind up doing in the animated series is that they wear these belts. And so I wonder if this was something that carried on.
00:07:43
Speaker
They thought it would look silly in live action, but not in animation. um The international adaptations of this episode, the titles, this is why I brought it up because I thought it was funny. So for France and quebec and Quebec, it was simply called The Tholian Trap.
00:07:58
Speaker
In Portugal, the web. In Germany, the spider web. And then in Japan, Kristen, the Aetholian web was called Crisis of Captain Kirk, who was thrown into different dimensional space.
00:08:10
Speaker
I absolutely love it. yeah Like... Well, the one where he gets thrown into interdimensional space, obviously. That's kind of funny to redo Star Trek titles through like a friends filter.
00:08:24
Speaker
huh I think this had to be the most expensive episode of the original series outside of the pilot. There were so many optical effects. Allegedly, the final bill was $90,000. And if the that's like got to be almost a third of the budget at that point. um I had a question, though. um So the episode I watched, of course, is the remastered version.
00:08:45
Speaker
Is the Tholian web in that version different than what aired? I assume it was. Yes. The original Tholian web looks far more basic, as you would expect, but for its time, still pretty advanced. Yeah.
00:08:59
Speaker
But yeah, the spacesuits were made specifically for this episode. So, you know, that's awesome. love them too ah They were made out of a silver lame with a fabric helmet with screen mesh visor.
00:09:12
Speaker
They had no zippers. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. No, they just had no zippers. So if somebody had to go to the bathroom, they had to take the whole thing off. Yeah, that was an oversight. But on my TV and like a close up, like it's actually a pretty interesting looking suit.
00:09:27
Speaker
Pops off very easily, though. Yeah. like Like the fabric is looks really cool. Yeah, it looks really cool. And it looks like they asked Shatner not to wear his toupee with the helmet on because there's definitely a shot where that's not Captain Kirk's normal hair. Yeah.
00:09:45
Speaker
ah There are approximately... balding. Yes. the The interface has taken part of his hair. The approximately two dozen crew members who attend Kirk's memorial service appear to constitute the largest assemblage of Enterprise personnel in the original series. And then, course, in the motion picture, they would actually fill up the whole auditorium or the rec hall with...
00:10:08
Speaker
the normal klu crew compliment for the first time ever. So you've got a huge background cast. You've got a lot of optical effects. You've got these brand new space suits. This had to be outside of the pilots, the most expensive Star Trek episodes I'd imagine.
00:10:23
Speaker
I'm just putting this in here. Because I think you've seen both Citizen Kane and It's a Wonderful Life, and I've seen it. I have. The antique Napoleon second ebeize or III ebonized cabinet pedestal found in Spock's quarters had previously appeared in the films It's a Wonderful Life and Citizen Kane.
00:10:39
Speaker
The piece, which was really originally part of the RKO property department, later came into the possession of Paramount Pictures and was sold at auction in 2008 for $6,000. I don't remember what this piece is, but I do like to bring it up.
00:10:52
Speaker
I like how Hollywood for a long time, it was all just warehoused. So it's like you could in the most random, like father knows best. It's like that was used. Yeah. yeah It's like, didn't matter. They still do that to extent with costumes. Yeah.
00:11:10
Speaker
too. like there's a huge costume There's a huge costume wearing it ah warehouses where you need a weird costume, go there first because they might have it. But oddly, they're like digitizing costumes more and more and it's just
Connections to Star Trek Lore
00:11:24
Speaker
strange. The background and all everything. It's just very weird.
00:11:27
Speaker
Anyway, Star Trek was nominated for an Emmy Award for that $90,000 optical effect bill. ah Mike Miner, the guy who worked on it, he stated about the work, I guess it was worth it,
00:11:40
Speaker
ah To get that nomination. I mean, they paid you too, I assume. They had 17 grueling shots, I guess. Those shots that they had were pretty intense. And then I'll close with this note.
00:11:51
Speaker
Since we're not doing the episode, I thought we would get to Enterprise this season, but we're not. hey ultimately the too bad yeah The ultimate fate of the Defiant was revealed nearly 37 years later when the vessel was discovered in the Mirror Universe in the 21st century in the Enterprise episodes Intermary Darkly Part 1 and 2, where the vessel was first salvaged by the Tholians before being stolen by Commander Jonathan Archer of the Terran Empire.
00:12:18
Speaker
According to Mike Sussman, those episodes are written to be a prequel to Mirror Mirror and a sequel to the Tholian Web, two of his favorite episodes. And this was before that kind of like storytelling nonsense was ah the the normal state of things.
00:12:35
Speaker
um So it was just his idea that the USS Defiant from the Tholian Web was still floating around out there somewhere in Interphase. And we never knew what happened to it. So to me, that was a tantalizing story I wanted to explore.
00:12:47
Speaker
And the whole interface concept was was ah the one of the main contributions made by Chet Richards, the co-writer, since he was a science major in college with Judy Burns.
00:12:59
Speaker
And their base, their, their idea was like how he had a dream, Chet Richards of like a ghost story. And so like, how do we tell a ghost story in a science fiction show? And so he just came up with the interface mumbo jumbo since he works in physics, it's like vaguely physically, you know, physics related. So that's where you go Let's get into the grades. Great scenes.
00:13:22
Speaker
All right. So when at first, uh, The four of them onto the Defiant. All the Defiant crew are like in mid murder scene.
00:13:34
Speaker
like i blues Like in Pompeii or something. Like they're just like one guy's like at the throat of another. It's great. I love it. Like just freeze frame everyone trying to kill each other.
00:13:48
Speaker
On that note, I think any of the moments where there is either those images or just people actually fighting each other, those are the ones I put as the great scenes. McCoy fighting off the orderly. Yeah. The the fight in engineering where I love when they do these really reckless stunts that they would never do today.
00:14:07
Speaker
okay They're just badly unsafe shots. The guy jumping from the second level. like Yeah. Should we get a stuntman for this? No, no, no. Is he petting? No.
00:14:20
Speaker
And my second one is Chekhov when he has a freakout on the bridge and Spock gives him the nerve pinch. Yeah. ye And um then i I'll skip all the way to Kirk's mini funeral.
00:14:32
Speaker
and McCoy questioning like everything that Spock is doing. I love when he goes, Captain Kirk is dead. Ah! And he flips out. Look, we're all sad about it. Okay.
00:14:48
Speaker
But yeah, the whole, like, just, there's a lot of very good and McCoy scenes in the whole episode, but that, that leads us into, i think one of the better ones.
00:15:02
Speaker
Did you have that scene where they watch Captain Kirk's final orders? did yeah Yeah. So like all through end, that scene. And then after that, um,
00:15:15
Speaker
Then when, ah sorry, hold on.
00:15:19
Speaker
Then when um McCoy finally comes up with the antidote to this affliction that we don't get any information on, Scotty just takes the whole jug of it to go mix it with scotch.
00:15:32
Speaker
So what it is... But at the time, they're still in a lot of peril. Yes. So a chief engineer has decided to go get drunk. Yes, that's right. The interphase is causing their brains to either like short out or degrade. It sounded like degrade at first, but when McCoy explains what the Theragin derivative does, it sounds like it's like, no, this is to prevent you from shorting out.
00:15:57
Speaker
So that's what it seems like. But yes, it's all very vague. Just to get to this ghost story. Any other great scenes? I had one one more. um Yeah, so at the very end when Kirk is back, his last scene with Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, I like this. I like this. Well, did you read my get my message? Like, no.
00:16:19
Speaker
Were Spock and McCoy to straight up lie to him? Yeah, that's correct. But everything was fine. had it under control. I think this episode is pretty familiar if you think about it, a lot of the stuff in there. But let's see which ones fall under the best Trek tropes and the worst Trek tropes. so what What do you have for best Trek tropes?
00:16:38
Speaker
A ship that vanishes without a trace.
Analysis of Common Star Trek Tropes
00:16:44
Speaker
i Yeah, I have it as another starship in distress. Yeah. I kind of think one of the most underrated aspects of Star Trek storytelling is being the second ship on the scene.
00:16:56
Speaker
even though yeah people might accuse you of plot armor and all this other stuff. But if you stumble upon ah confusing, impossible situation and you're the second ship dramatically, you get to then have the mystery half or a quarter solved of like, well, what happened to these people and how do we stop it from happening to us?
00:17:16
Speaker
Or how do we get out of the jam we're now in along with them? That's a good Star Trek trope of like, no wonder the Enterprise gets out of so the they're the second ship on the scene.
00:17:27
Speaker
but yeah luckily they're always the same yeah i mean i can't think of too many episodes where they're just a second ship comes to their rescue yes that's right it's rare then next generation they would be sometimes the first ship on the scene but yeah it's ah i think in 10 episode season it's not a good you couldn't go to that well too many times but in the 22 or 26 yeah i mean yeah it's gonna happen one out of four times What else do you have? um So the spacesuits that have these little name tags on them that are clearly made with like one of those old-timey label makers.
00:18:06
Speaker
Yeah. ah So it was cute. It was like little one name tags that was Chekhov. I should have brought back most of its time quality just for I know. was like, because we need to know who they are in case someone's like, oh, I can't tell which guy that is behind the mesh head suit thing. That's right. My antenna is getting really reception. Yeah, it's too fuzzy. Yep.
00:18:31
Speaker
ah For those who don't realize, in the 60s, you watch TV over an antenna. Yeah. Yeah, I currently watch a TV over a tenant, but it's a digital signal, so it's much better. yeah And I also live like within like five miles of the signal point.
00:18:48
Speaker
Effective. Yeah, if you live in a large city and close to where your're ah your network affiliates broadcast, you don't need anything powerful. I put Space Madness as the best Trek trope.
00:19:01
Speaker
Oh, yeah. i I'm a little iffy. There's kind of a lot going on in this episode, right? There's the interface, which the Defiant is trapped in, and then Kirk is trapped in it.
00:19:13
Speaker
But then also the interface is creating space madness. And all this is happening in a region of space of the Tholian one. And the Tholian aren't just like angry aliens. They also have this web.
00:19:24
Speaker
So it's kind of like hat on the hat on the hat. What is this episode ultimately about? Is the space madness all that important to the story? Because it's like, we've got to get out of here. It's driving us insane. But it's also, we've got to get out of here because are we've got to stay here because Captain Kirk's waiting. But we also have to go because the Tholians want us to leave.
00:19:41
Speaker
Seems like you could just compressed it down to the Tholians don't want us here. Yeah. So, I mean... There's a lot going on. and I don't have this in another grade, so I might as well mention now, but there's a lot going on this episode. we got Who are the Tholians?
00:19:55
Speaker
We never find out. What's the space madness? Eh, we don't know. what's going on like What's going on with everything else? Eh. Where's the Defiant? Eh. But in this episode, I'm okay with it because i was thinking that if they made this episode today, unlike Strange New Worlds or Discovery or Picard or any that, we'd have probably like a whole episode about Tholian backstory that I would be bored to tears over. Or there'd be so many flashbacks or some kind of whatever.
00:20:25
Speaker
We'd spend too much time developing who the hell these people are, where what happened on the Defiant and all that stuff when that's not really... here nor there for the plot. Yeah. I like space madness as a Trek trope because are human beings able to travel into interstellar space or, you know, in into deep space? I don't think so.
00:20:45
Speaker
doesn't seem like our bodies are able to handle that and who knows about our minds. And so I think I appreciate that Star Trek was so 60s science fiction enough that it contemplated that and would actually invite opportunities for that and in the newer shows they're always like there's an alien influence that's making everyone weird or something's in the air instead of there's a vitamin d deficiency what if it's just people are in space and the act of being in space like you haven't seen a sun like you like you have no your rhythm as your whole body rhythm is off
00:21:20
Speaker
you You breathe recycled air all the time. You transport. You're traveling at warm You're eating replicated food. Yes. Like, I feel like space madness makes a lot more sense than these asteroids have a weird magnetization that's causing us to lose our memories.
00:21:37
Speaker
It's like, okay. Like, didn't one of those astronauts come back and he was like a couple inches shorter? Yeah, it does. like it Gravity it does a lot of stuff to you. Space fucks you up, man. it's not We're not supposed to be there then but all that long.
00:21:51
Speaker
So I kind of like that as a best Trek trope. I'm sure there's definitely, I mean, there's people bring up stuff like, oh, they can't get REM sleep and they go mad, you know, and in, in, in that next generation episode, ah night terrors.
00:22:04
Speaker
And it's just like, sure, you may not like how the episode was done, but that's kind of an interesting science fiction concept because again, it's deep space and maybe humans aren't supposed to be out there. I would probably give myself a week in space before going to space mad. So Outer space, not something I actually want to experience as it stands now.
00:22:26
Speaker
Right. Star Trek stuff where you could just walk around and, you know. Right. You have all the comforts of home and gravity. Fine. But as it stands now, no.
00:22:37
Speaker
Right. Yeah. I mean, the but better way of thinking about it is like you're on a cruise ship, but you're never going. You're rarely going into port. but Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:49
Speaker
ah All right, any other restrictions? Yeah, so we got... but oh the captain has gone in a transporter accident. Oh, I like this as a stealth transporter accident episode. Yeah, can see you know I'll go with it.
00:23:03
Speaker
um So, I like that they're playing with... McCoy and Spock already have a... you know I wouldn't even it's love-hate relationship.
00:23:13
Speaker
They have... and almost a frenemies relationship, but they really get on each other's nerves a lot. And I like that. McCoy gets my nerves, that's for sure.
00:23:25
Speaker
I like that this episode, you're like, well, is this just normal McCoy hating Spock? Or does he have the space madness? Yeah. That's causing him to question everything.
00:23:37
Speaker
It's so bizarre. He's like, you wanted the captain's command. Now you've got the captaincy. He's like, I... This is the space madness talking McCoy. But also Spock is making some maybe questionable decisions.
00:23:50
Speaker
Yeah. Also the space madness. Yeah. So like who's got the space madness, the space madness or his love for Captain Kirk. Yeah. And then um i really liked Uhura's quarters and her caftan that she's wearing.
00:24:06
Speaker
But also she's not crazy. She did see Captain Kirk in her mirror. That's right. That's right. Another reason why McCoy was annoying in this episode is he didn't believe Ohura. And then when Scotty's like, oh yeah, I saw him.
00:24:20
Speaker
Like, yeah oh, well, case closed. That's right. Ohura, good news. We're going to take off the restraints. A white man has corroborated your statement. Jesus.
00:24:35
Speaker
I put multiverse because i liked when Star Trek does it. I don't like, and I'm saying that after the lower decks. series finale, which I didn't particularly care for. But in the original series, the multiverse is basically the mirror universe and this quasi scientific explanation where Spock says, well, picture it this way, Mr. Chekhov.
00:24:59
Speaker
We exist in the universe which coexists with the multitude of others and the same physical space at certain brief periods of time. An area of their space overlaps an area of ours. This is a time of interphase during which we can connect with the defiance universe.
00:25:14
Speaker
That's fine. They didn't like hit it hard because it wasn't like a thing, one, that audiences could understand. And two, it's like, that's not what we're trying to go for.
00:25:25
Speaker
And, ah you know, I think. people were intrigued initially by the idea of multiversing everything. And it was interesting to watch Marvel basically play that concept out where everyone's sick of it in any... Oh my God, that was a fucking dud for sure. i don't know what they were thinking, but... And Enterprise, just to be clear, the original series did do not just Mirror Mirror, but they also did the alternative factor from season one, which is legitimately...
00:25:57
Speaker
universally considered to be the worst episode of the original series, which you and I have not Spock's brain, not Spock's brain, apparently because the alternative factor, unlike Spock's brain, the alternative factor never really had a full script.
00:26:13
Speaker
and was kind of like rewritten and editing and all that stuff. And ah the, it has a guest star performance. That's so unhinged and ridiculous that it's just like, what, what the hell is this?
00:26:24
Speaker
you know well You know, when they say the show must go on, they don't mean without the script usually. I have two more. We have the nerve pinch that you you pointed out.
00:26:37
Speaker
um Captain Kirk being cavalier about his own death. So I think it's a little, I think it's a little funny that his sign off to his two best friends is take care, which is something I say to people. I don't expect to ever talk to you again, or don't plan to talk to you very much. It's ah maybe it's a 60s thing.
00:26:57
Speaker
After they give you a car back at the oil change place or something like, all right, take care. ah Maybe it's a 1960s man thing that's about as sentimental as you could be about it. But like, Kirk's being very matter of fact about this whole thing. It's not goodbye message so much as it's like, these are my orders.
00:27:14
Speaker
And it's not like it's been an honor serving with you gentlemen. No, no sentiment. And i thought it was very funny. think it was the best Trek trope all the same because it was just like very funny.
00:27:26
Speaker
ah Worst Trek tropes. have two. Carpenter and Sickbay. yeah i have ah way I have one, two three, four, five. The captain is going on a dangerous mission.
00:27:43
Speaker
and And this is a overall TV trope I don't care for. If you are seeing this, that means I'm dead. These video messages, I've never heard of one in real life.
00:27:57
Speaker
I've heard of letters or some kind of instructions. or sentiments of some kind, not a videotaped message. Well, you're watching this, that means I'm dead.
00:28:10
Speaker
It is, i think, a bit of a lazy trope that TV and film do. Now it's to the point where it's a joke. Like I think 30 Rock has several of these. Yes. It only works now in a comedic standpoint. Yeah.
00:28:24
Speaker
Because in 30 Rock, they did it where it was recorded in like the early nineties or something. And they're watching it much, much later than when it was recorded. So the references within it are dated. Avoid the noid. Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:40
Speaker
um But yeah, I don't. it's It drives me nuts because it's like, well, if it was written, no one's I don't know, like it's a visual media. So we have to have a guy talking to a camera.
00:28:51
Speaker
I'm trying think of the things I'm trying to think of the times where Star Trek has done it. Could we do it as a trope? And like you've got Jack Crusher sending it like leaving a message for his unborn son or his you know baby Wesley Crusher for him to watch when he's older.
00:29:07
Speaker
You got that. That's the one that I can immediately think I think we've had some... where it was recorded, but like someone was trying to record it for the future, but like it wasn't played necessarily. Oh, possibly.
00:29:22
Speaker
um i like it here as the worst truck joke because it's like exactly fundamental to the plot. You know what mean? Like i think today, if you were to do this exact scene, it would be a little more artfully done where it played to the themes, but it wasn't so explicit for the plot.
00:29:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. ah And that yellow shirt you're wearing.
00:29:47
Speaker
like That old Dave Chappelle sketch where ah tupac Tupac has unreleased music that's just found, but he's referencing things that happened last week, but he's supposed to be dead. yeah Stuff like that.
00:30:03
Speaker
um Okay, and then I also have... Oh, just Kirk floating around in space. Like, as a ghost. I didn't know where put that. do you want to put it as the worst picture? It's just a little cheesy for today's audience. It's not, it's fine for the time.
00:30:21
Speaker
can't imagine if we still was doing if were still werere doing the most of its time quality, I would put it there. It's funny now. At the time, would have been like, whoa, but he's like mouthing something and like pantomiming. And we're like, what? I think he's thirsty. don't know.
00:30:39
Speaker
Shatner is moving slowly. The footage is not being, he's the footage isn't moving slowly. He is moving. Yeah. Like he, like he like but he own space in a space suit. Yeah.
00:30:51
Speaker
Oh yeah. I don't know where to put that. I guess it's sort of like a the worst Trek trope would be like a scary thing. come Unintentional comedy of a, of a science fiction. Yeah. of like Something that's supposed to be serious, but like he comes into the mirror Every time I watch this episode, it looks very funny. It's, I can't help but laugh. It's really funny.
00:31:13
Speaker
And then he shows up, it's like, he then shows up on the bridge and everyone sees it. And I go, that's right. That's right.
00:31:20
Speaker
Let's see. Any others? No. So I put a spatial phenomenon that doesn't register on sensors yet has a tangible effect on the ship. It's a trope that they do throughout TOS and they do it even into TNG. g um I can remember Nagilam. They're like the first two minutes of that episode is data being like, there's something unusual on the sensors, but there it's, there's nothing actually there.
00:31:44
Speaker
And Riker is like, are you saying there's some, there is and isn't something there. And it's like, there's going through this rigmarole of basically doing a scientific science fiction, jargon sounding way of,
00:31:55
Speaker
basically saying something weird is going on. and And so i I don't know, it just seems like between this and the immunity syndrome and ah you know we've seen this already in TOS where there's just something weird going on that our sensors are registering but can't explain. And it's like, okay.
00:32:12
Speaker
ah Again, and it's irrelevant to the plot. Because it's like, it doesn't matter. Yeah. All you need to know is like, we found the Defiant on long range sensors. It's not answering our hails and the energy readings are unusual.
00:32:23
Speaker
And then as you get close, like there is something wrong with space in this region. Like that's all you needed to know. And instead you get this whole, this whole back and forth and then drafting off that techno babble, because I think how they save Kirk at the end and escape the Thulean web is patently absurd.
00:32:43
Speaker
I don't know what they do. ah They drink a punch. They drink some Kool-Aid. They drink basically orange soda or Agent Orange Soda. That's the reference to clear their brains.
00:32:56
Speaker
And then they, what, warp through the Tholian web with Captain Kirk and the transporter beam? Yeah, I don't know. They're like, oh what happened? ah We were out of it now.
00:33:09
Speaker
we went We jumped ah to a new place. I think the maybe they were going to warp through the interphase. And then it was like a, you know, you've seen all that in science fiction when they fold a piece of paper and stick the pencil through it.
00:33:25
Speaker
So basically, like, if we go through the interphase part, we'll pop out somewhere else away from the Tholian web. And because we started beaming Captain Kirk when we did that, he'll still be there waiting for us.
00:33:35
Speaker
And lo and behold, that's what happened. um Sure, why not? But that's just Technobabble. doesn't make any sense. By the way, speaking of sensors that are reading something there that isn't there, my car, I can't back out of any parking space without it going, beep, beep, somebody's there. You're going hit some kid.
00:33:56
Speaker
Great. Maybe you have a ghost following you around. Maybe. Maybe of have a dumb car. So I believe that sensors will pick up something that isn't there.
00:34:07
Speaker
I believe that part. I don't think they fixed that one. The backup camera on the Enterprise thinks it's running into a trash can every time. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
00:34:18
Speaker
Sensors say yes. Scanners say no. God damn it. All diagnostics show normal, so there's nothing wrong with the equipment. Yeah. However, if they were to do that in a new Star Trek show, I'd be like, okay, this is now I recognize this. Yeah. um Most cosplayable character a moment.
00:34:41
Speaker
Okay. I have two. Two nominations. Either, obviously, Kirk in the spacesuit floating around or ah her and her caftan.
00:34:53
Speaker
i I put a her and her caftan. Okay. all right.
Character Highlights and Performances
00:34:58
Speaker
great anyone would look fabulous in it it's a great caftan i think i think i'm going to nominate that for best caftan on the original series and there's quite a few i've called out a few saying i i like them but this one i think is the best one yet and if people were unclear what you who you were dressed up as you could run around the hallways going smock yeah Oh, I should have put and best Trek trope. Oh, her nose. McCoy isn't going to believe a fucking word. She says, but she's like, no, I got to talk to Spock.
00:35:31
Speaker
And you're like, Oh boy.
00:35:35
Speaker
Now it's time for the line. Mr. Jones. Yeah. Great lines. Um, I like in the beginning when McCoy tries to touch somebody and his hands go through and he goes, what the devil? Yeah.
00:35:49
Speaker
And then I have um when the Tholians start firing on the Enterprise, Spock says the renowned Tholonian punctuality.
00:36:00
Speaker
Okay, that's cute. and it's And to me it reads as Spock is being sarcastic. Yes. Because if in the end of the episode he's lying, then we clearly are like, he's being pretty human in this episode. Probably. no Yeah.
00:36:13
Speaker
He's lost work and whatever. It's definitely sarcasm. The renowned Tholian punctuality. You read it as unambiguously sarcastic. Correct. What some fans read it as, as a way of excusing when Strange New Worlds goes off and does its own canon, is that suggests that the Federation has encountered the Tholians before.
00:36:35
Speaker
And that's what Spock's making a reference to. To which I say, if you only read something on paper, sure. But if you watch the full episode, how can you arrive at that conclusion?
00:36:47
Speaker
And that's where we get into weird stuff like everyone knows about the Gorn, even though no one's supposed to know about the Gorn, even though the Enterprise was supposed to have been the first to encounter at the Gorn.
00:36:59
Speaker
That's where they people just misinterpret things. either willfully or not. And so that's fine that you say that because yeah, Spock being not sassy necessarily, but sort of like in his feelings in this episode because Kirk died makes a lot of sense.
00:37:15
Speaker
And i mean, throughout the entire original series, Spock has used a sarcasm quite a bit like for Vulcan, but I guess, i don't know, people don't get that. i don't Right.
00:37:30
Speaker
Any others? Oh, and then Spock kind of trying to eulogize, but he's not doing a hot job, but he does okay. he's like, I shall That's what I am, yes, go ahead. Attempt of voice the quality of respect and admiration which Captain Kirk commanded, and then telling everyone to like, I didn't write the whole thing down. Each each of you must evaluate the loss. Just quietly, by yourself. In the privacy of your own thoughts. Yeah.
00:37:59
Speaker
but No, there will not be time for statements.
00:38:04
Speaker
Can I read the poem? No. Basically his version of I'm a man of few words. Any questions? Yeah. No, no questions. absolutely He was not going to call for questions. No, no.
00:38:16
Speaker
Would this have been a fun holo novel to play out? No! yeah I don't think so. Like, going space mad and the captain is dead? Yeah. Have to drink ah Agent Orange to heal your... Or derivative of.
00:38:31
Speaker
ah Anyway, ah the Anton Cridion Award for Best Performance. um I'd like to hear what you have first. Oh, I put Leonard Nimoy as Mr. Spock. I'm fine with that. Because... I think season three, I'm not sure if it's from this point on or whatever, when we certainly done Plato's stepchildren, but I definitely feel like there becomes a point in season three where the budget crunch becomes and intolerable and it affects everything in the show.
00:38:58
Speaker
And this seems like just on the edge of where like everyone is still kind of looking how they look in the first two seasons and the performance wise, everything's pretty buttoned down. And I think it helps because so much of this episode is actually pretty familiar. We've seen this in other episodes.
00:39:13
Speaker
And I like what Spock's journey is. He doesn't really have a journey, let's be honest. But like I think I like the the kind of human side that peeks out every so often. And he's not quite as robotic as he is in the Doomsday Machine either. he's very There's kind of a warmth to him.
00:39:28
Speaker
He's making the wrong decisions. He's kind of putting up with people's bullshit because he knows everyone's losing their minds. like That kind of thing. I just thought it kind of worked. um The Shatner then.
00:39:40
Speaker
um may i suggest all of the crew of the defiant who is in a freeze front like frozen and mid murder i like that but i i mean can we at least give an honorable mention to walter koenig as checkoff losing his mind oh sure yeah all the screaming including the bit where uhura is wondering if she's going to become like him and through that whole scene you can hear him screaming in the background yeah That was pretty great.
00:40:08
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, yeah, of course they are going for it in those spotlit tableaus murder. That was pretty great. Like a weird haunted house. ah So shoot to throw most exciting image or sequence.
00:40:21
Speaker
I guess the one of the enterprise fires on the foldings. I mean, in the it looks okay in the remastered version anyway. yeah I don't really have much else. yeah I kind of thought either the first sequence where they're trying to beam Kirk out of there or the scene where they break free if only because it shows the digital enterprise in the black space where there's no stars wow and all that stuff.
00:40:47
Speaker
But we'll go with the space battle. Space battles are usually pretty decent. ah What part of this will teach at Starfleet Academy? um i guess something about the Tholian punctuality.
00:41:01
Speaker
I put that and I put the medicinal uses of the derivative, aka Klingon Agent Orange. Yes. Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better?
00:41:13
Speaker
um It wasn't very horny at all, unfortunately. my response was that it could not have been hornier for what you said, like, or just because it's like, I don't see how it could have been.
00:41:24
Speaker
But if they had found a way, I think it would have made it better. Yeah. Because grief does stuff to people.
00:41:33
Speaker
You keep saying that, but I... I'm just saying... Does it make you horny? Grief doesn't always a yeah come out that way. comes out as aggression. It can come out as people needing to feel close to other people because they feel isolated. They feel sad. It's a way of connection.
00:41:49
Speaker
It's pretty... Look it up. It's a pretty rational expression of grief. I mean, I've only seen that in movies, though, or TV. I've never, like... spoken to anyone who had experienced that themselves i see but sure mate i mean fine if we're talking about television then yeah i guess maybe her could have been horny for kirk because he was dead or something or just you know the tholian coming on to spock sure sure
00:42:23
Speaker
How old do you think I I'll give you 69 minutes exactly. That's right. How do you think I look? Yeah, right. all right, so check, marry, or kill the Tholian web.
Final Thoughts and Episode Rating
00:42:35
Speaker
um I'm going to give it a track. I'm also going to give it a trick, but let it be said that this episode is kind of but like a episode of Voyager and that it's a remix of previous episodes of Star Trek.
00:42:49
Speaker
Like there's a lot of it that's very familiar. I think the look of the Tholian web it and the fact that William Shatner is not in most of the episode, that's highly unusual. Like for if this were today, we'd expect, we would think, Oh, maybe William Shatner is directing this one. Like the,
00:43:06
Speaker
If a star isn't in it that much, sometimes they do that so they can direct the episode, but not the case. yeah I tried to find something in that These Are the Voyages um thing where you know that background book talked about like how did they convince Shatner to yeah screen not yeah to not work and have fewer lines than Leonard Nimoy. They're like, have you ever heard of Waiting for Godot?
00:43:32
Speaker
ah So I'm not entirely sure how I didn't see anything in there that was like definitive and maybe I just missed it. But I will to my the point I made about how it was sort of somewhat familiar. What I did find is that there was a letter to ah TV key mail column ah on November 1968.
00:43:52
Speaker
Very soon after this episode aired. And it's from ah someone with the initials LK from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. They wrote, the stories on Star Trek are all the same this season.
00:44:04
Speaker
i am honestly beginning to get bored with the show. At one time, this was my favorite television series. Have they changed writers or what? Or what?
00:44:15
Speaker
You're not wrong, LK. Yeah. Yeah. But I still think in terms of but it's a track for sure. A solid one to check out. By the way, this one ah this one aired just a couple of weeks after Richard Nixon was elected president.
00:44:30
Speaker
Tough. So there's probably some people a little down in the dumps about that That's right. Looking to Star Trek too yeah to lift their spirits and they did not find it. What was the episode we did when I was like...
00:44:43
Speaker
Spock's brain. No, was that the one that like, okay, yeah, like right right when you came back from summer break, Bobby Kennedy had been killed. yeah Looks like Nixon's going to be president and he had to watch this bullshit. Yeah.
00:44:57
Speaker
Spock's brain.
00:45:00
Speaker
So we're going to continue with our, the captain is dead next week. Sharice will be back and we will be looking at deep space nines. The visitor, be sure to rate and review us wherever you listen. We're Trek Mary K pod social media. saw we had some nice four star reviews on Apple podcasts.
00:45:21
Speaker
Yes. those Probably some of them. I'm pretty sure we're not from our friends and family. As far as I can tell. i mean, none of my friends and family. I mean, some of them were definitely from our friends, Brian.
00:45:32
Speaker
But I'm just saying none of my friends and family listen to this show. I'm sure they has to be one of your friends. No. of my friends listen. There are people like, are you still doing that podcast?
00:45:44
Speaker
No, ah really?
00:45:48
Speaker
Oh. No, I thought I saw some. I don't know. Where'd they keep the reviews? Oh, wait.
00:45:56
Speaker
they're not my friends, I don't think. on. I they're just people who listen to the show. This podcast is hands down the funniest and most refreshing take on Trek ah episodes I've ever had the pleasure of listening to.
00:46:11
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you. Not my friend. Yeah. thank you not my friend So if you're feeling so inclined, be sure to leave us a review. That'd be great.
00:46:22
Speaker
On Apple Podcasts or Spotify, wherever you listen. We're TrekMerryKpod on social media and TrekMerryKillPod.com on the web where you can see all of our standings or how many Treks, Marys, and Kills we've given out for the original series and all the other series.
00:46:35
Speaker
So until next week, TMK out.