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DS9: "Improbable Cause" (s3e20)
103 Plays2 days ago
TAILOR MADE CONSPIRACY. Garak's shop explodes and Odo's investigation soon gets the two of them into a situation of galactic importance. Our DS9's Season Three Leap Forward theme month continues with a pivotal episode about Garak, the Dominion, and the clandestine services in the Alpha Quadrant.
The grades begin at (29:06).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Teaser
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek, Merry, Kill. Garrick, Odo, Torture, and Gage. Brace yourself. Are you alright? For a revelation.
00:00:12
Speaker
Someone tried to kill you, Garrick. More shocking. Why would the Romulans want to have Garak killed? More catastrophic. Sounds like they're preparing for an invasion.
00:00:24
Speaker
More devastating than the Federation has ever confronted. You'll be taking Romulus and Cardassia into war on the next Star Trek Deep Space Nine.
00:00:38
Speaker
Trek, marry, kill.
Deep Space Nine Theme Month
00:00:45
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Sharice. Welcome to Trek, Marry, Kill, a Star Trek podcast that's a true original. Here in June, we're looking at episodes from Deep Space Nine's third season and a theme month we're calling Deep Space Nine's season three leap forward. Doesn't that just roll off the tongue?
00:01:01
Speaker
It really does. It's so catchy. but I thought it was going to be just as good as the captain's dead, but, but it wasn't. though Alas. That's because I think season three is the year that the show really went from good to great.
00:01:14
Speaker
And it's not just my opinion. We intend to prove it. Sharice, welcome back for some more Deep Space Nine. Thanks for having me again. this is really fun because as you know, my knowledge of Deep Space Nine is limited to the first half of season one.
00:01:29
Speaker
So all of this was not season one and was really great to watch. There was a lot of context that I was missing, obviously. um But even that was fun because after being in love with Star Trek for over 30 years, I guess it's now approaching over 40 years.
Sharice’s Fresh Perspective
00:01:45
Speaker
um It's nice to have these bonus episodes, which is basically code for shows I haven't seen before.
00:01:51
Speaker
But it's nice to be like, oh look, you know, it's like I get to relive my youth in some ways. Yeah, ah I think Deep Space Nine and and Voyager are great time capsules. If you didn't delve into them as deeply, like if TNG g was your show as it was mine,
00:02:07
Speaker
Like that I was really deep into. And Deep Space Nine was as well. But sort of if you go back and look at them, you'd be like, oh, this is like extra material to this main thread. It's like the director's cut.
00:02:18
Speaker
yeah Exactly. This was going on the whole time. It is interesting to see how the two shows diverge. Like Voyager went more into the Brandon Braga high concept action-y kind of path. And Deep Space Nine was like the talky Picard episode.
00:02:33
Speaker
Yeah. even in DJ Stein's first season, they were recycling a lot of like half considered TNG g ideas that were floating around. But also that's that's a Star Trek trope in and of itself. Recycling ideas that have already been done is like the key to having a great first season is let's see, what did all the other shows do in their first season?
00:02:56
Speaker
What did we do? and What did we do earlier in our own first season? Let's just do that again. What couldn't we fit in to figure out a story for in our show that might work in this season? In season, then it still doesn't work in our show. But this week, we're talking about Improbable Cause.
Discussion of 'Improbable Cause'
00:03:14
Speaker
It's the 20th episode of Deep Space Nine's third season. It premiered in syndication April 24th, 1995. So it's 30 years old now. ah Teleplay by Rene Achevarria from a story by Robert Lederman and David R. Long. Directed by...
00:03:29
Speaker
Commander Sisko himself, Avery Brooks. Memory Alpha's description, Odo begins an investigation after a bomb destroys Garrick's tailor shop. What Memory Alpha doesn't tell us, and it's actually in the episode trailer, is that Garrick blew up his own shop.
00:03:44
Speaker
And for reasons that have consequences for the entire Alpha Quadrant... You said you didn't have a lot of context for this, Sharice. The Obsidian Order is basically... No, I got that. They're like spies. I that. Everyone has their CIA. And Anabarantain was like the head of... He was the J. Edgar Hoover of the Cardassian secret you police, are basically.
00:04:05
Speaker
And Garak is his son. and ah And betrayed him. And we find a lot of that out in the episode The Wire from a previous season. So that's not... Is Garak his son's son or just his mentee? Yes, Garak is his son.
00:04:18
Speaker
Oh. it's It's all played out of like, it's not a son. It's kind of a son. It's a son. I see. And so his maid is like his mom. ah Well, like a mother to him is probably.
00:04:30
Speaker
That's what I mean. like that Exactly. Yeah. Yep. Tane's maid is like Garak's mother figure. Yeah. And the plot is so... Another thing that Memory Alpha doesn't tell us, because what's great about it is like it doesn't capture tone, but we have 30 years now of perspective to go back and look at this on, which I think helps and hurts this episode. But basically, I really feel like they were obsessed with any time Odo and Garrick had a story like not together, but just their own stories.
00:05:02
Speaker
Oh, those they always wanted to be some sort of detective story, hard boiled detective story. And with Garak, they always wanted Tinker, Taylor, soldier spy. They always wanted that.
00:05:13
Speaker
So it's like you combine the two and you basically have basically a British spy drama is what's going on here.
British Spy Drama Influences
00:05:21
Speaker
And it certainly is. It does seem like Renee Shavria watched a lot of Masterpiece Theater or the BBC or something before he like loaded up the final draft to write this episode.
00:05:33
Speaker
Were they using final draft in 95? They might, they might've been very early version. Anyway. ah So that's, what's going on there. The, the Cardassians, the Obsidian order, or at least an Auburn tame, the retired part of the Obsidian order has teamed up with Tal Shiar.
00:05:48
Speaker
And they're like, we're not going to do this thing where we wait for the Dominion to come through the wormhole and pound us on the submission. We're going to go to the Founders Homeworld, which we find. look them. Yeah. Yes. And blow them up. That was an idea.
00:06:01
Speaker
And that sounds like something they would do. Yes. In season war or see excuse me, in the season premiere, we go to what we think is the founders homeworld. Odo meets his people.
00:06:12
Speaker
And so that's why an Auburn Tane is like the Tal Shiar shared this information with me because.
Federation-Romulan Deal
00:06:20
Speaker
The Federation was gifted a Romulan cloaking device that was put on the Defiant.
00:06:24
Speaker
And the condition of yeah of using it is that they had to share all intelligence about the Dominion with the Romulans. Oh, that was one of my questions. I was like, what the heck? Did that ship just cloak? Yeah. Like, I mean, didn't we have a whole episode called the Pegasus where Riker was like court-martialed for this?
00:06:40
Speaker
That's I like, what is going on right now? It's all connected. It works out. so this is like an exemption. They went back into the Treaty of Algeron. They're like, all right, little addendum there. e But you see how Deep Space Nine is connecting all of its plot points?
00:06:54
Speaker
In the previous episode to this one, Defiant, where Thomas Riker poses as Will Riker and steals the Defiant, he gets close to this star system where there's some unusual activity going on.
00:07:07
Speaker
and And as you see, they connect it back to that. That's what's going on here. There's a fleet being amassed of Romulan warbirds and Cardassian ships that are going to go into the Delta Quad... Ooh, the gamma quadrant. The gamma quadrant. Excuse me. So it's a bit of a three-parter because they connected whatever Thomas was doing good talk what's going on here.
00:07:27
Speaker
Good call. No one has ever labeled it as that, but it kind of is. it It's just like you don't see it directly connected. They don't reference the previous episode, right? They don't reference Defiant, so then that would do it. Okay. so ah But before we get into the details of this episode and the grades,
00:07:45
Speaker
Again, 30 years of perspective helps and hurts it. I think it hurts it in the sense of like, this is kind of an overwritten episode for what the plot actually is. The language is, it's it's ironic or maybe coincidental in a good way that they were talking about Shakespeare in the beginning.
00:08:01
Speaker
And then through the whole episode, the dialogue is so like... floridly written, intend to go with you. You what mean? Like it's so proper, the language in this episode that it's kind of anti-dramatic.
00:08:13
Speaker
But the other perspective is, this is something that fans... and ah queer fans at the time or just like open-minded fans at the time saw right away. But Garrick is gay. It's super gay. and And his storyline with Bashir, which Andrew Robinson says in the Deep Space Nine documentary, he's like the moment he sat down from Alexander Sittig to shoot their very first scene together, he's like, oh, this guy is hot. I know exactly how I'm play Garrick.
00:08:41
Speaker
Garak wants to fight Bashir. And so that's all the tension of that. And Lower Decks would finally pay this off, this dangling thread through Star Trek history.
00:08:53
Speaker
You had the Garabashir fans. You had all that was happening online. And finally, Lower Decks was like, well, since we're doing multiverses, let's just put them together. But for some reason, make one of them a hologram. So...
00:09:05
Speaker
but Well, I think that was a paying ode to pay paying homage to the Doctor from Voyager. There was an episode of Deep Space Nine where they were going to replace the visage of the Doctor that we see from
Dr. Bashir’s Backstory
00:09:17
Speaker
Voyager with Bashir.
00:09:18
Speaker
So they were studying Bashir. And ah did you see this one? Did you know this? No. Okay. So you know that the Doctor's designer looks like the Doctor. Yeah. Dr. Zimmerman. Dr. Zimmerman, so Robert Picardo, goes to Deep Space Nine, and he's like, you're the best.
00:09:34
Speaker
We want to use you as the next version of the EMH. So I'm going to study you, get to know who you are, because they think it should have a more realistic personality. Yeah. And then the dark secret that the study uncovers is that Dr. Bashir, as a child, had a lot of deficiencies, and his parents genetically altered him.
00:09:55
Speaker
Was that illegal at the time? Yes, it was illegal. But because the war was on, the Admiral literally goes, we're going to let this, we're going to let this go. And then what happens is that the doc is that Dr. Bashir becomes a very cool character. Like we, we had over time, he was hated when the show first started over time, the audience kind of grew to like him, whatever.
00:10:20
Speaker
But the moment, like the gloves were off where he was like a genius who could calculate in his head. And, you know, he just like let his freak flag flag ah fly. It really worked. It changes all characters. so Anyway, little that's is interesting. Yeah, that's super interesting.
00:10:34
Speaker
And I wonder why um i wonder why genetically modified people would be illegal. Like, I just wonder why that would be a thing in 24th century Federation.
00:10:46
Speaker
I think the idea was like, well, they're not going to like throw him in jail. He was a child when this happened to him. But sort of like his rank and status, I guess the whole point is like,
00:10:57
Speaker
It's not fair to the other kids that you were enhanced and you got to be in this position that you're in because we're supposed to be all about meritocracy, I guess. And so. Yeah, but it makes no sense. I mean, it's similar to Starfleet not having cloaks.
00:11:10
Speaker
It's just like technologically, we've got hyposprays for literally everything. So for me, to in my mind, genetic enhancements is just like the next step. It wouldn't seem like, oh my gosh, that's wrong. It's like, who's making these?
00:11:25
Speaker
don't know, that's just weird. So maybe they explain why it's such a travesty in the context of the culture, because it doesn't make sense to me why that technology would wouldn't be just fine.
00:11:36
Speaker
It's a prejudice that they've never actively dealt with in the text of the show. They've simply always passed it off as well because of Khan, we banned genetic engineering and that's it.
00:11:49
Speaker
And, you know, you had strange new worlds that had a chance. One dude. One very dangerous man and a ship. It was group of super people. Khan was merely their leader, but there are many people who are genetically enhanced. And what do those people try to do?
00:12:03
Speaker
Pull an X-Men and take over the Earth. Yeah, but those people were made for that purpose. ah Sure. But my point is, is like the show never grapples with where this prejudice comes from and what what it means. Like it's never confronted. It's just accepted.
00:12:18
Speaker
and i see And so maybe maybe one day when the next interesting Star Trek show comes out, they will deal with it in a way because already we're seeing. think the issue is is that in real life, it's hard to do a parallel because the designer baby thing is very real.
00:12:34
Speaker
And that is the primary use of it because that's the only people who can afford it. People who want to design cons. Supermen, you know, basically. And um and so anyway. Right, which makes sense now, like in the context of our current culture and technology.
00:12:48
Speaker
But it doesn't make sense in Starfleet, like in a post-scarcity society where... your status is not based on how much money you have or how beautiful you are or how popular famous you are, then you don't need to select for those genes.
00:13:02
Speaker
I also think there's a, i there's the idea and Kirk says this in ah the Savage Curtain. He says, we've come, we've grown to become delighted with who each of us is.
00:13:17
Speaker
So every type of person is sort of celebrated on their own as as a distinct individual. And this idea of getting everyone to conform to a certain standard, I think, is a value judgment that if not Federation people have made, then Earth people of the Star Trek future have made.
00:13:36
Speaker
was like but just the we're goingnna Just be who you are. And ah if you need a wheelchair, you need a wheelchair. If you need if you need ah education aids, you need education aids.
00:13:47
Speaker
And that's it. We're going to give you the best education aids. You know, the best wheelchair. It's not going to be an issue. I think that's the premise. Now, does that totally hold up in the face of. replicators and transporters where in either case you could actually literally make yourself younger or maybe even live forever.
00:14:03
Speaker
i don't know. Probably not. Make some synthetic legs. Yeah, exactly. So it's it gets tricky when you start going down the rabbit hole, really thinking through all the implications of it. But I think just the 90s idea and even the 60s ideas was that there's something...
00:14:19
Speaker
ah you know, also in the sixties, it's different from the nineties in the sixties. It's like, well, eugenics is something we just fought a war against. Right, right, right. And in the nineties, that was literally con. Yeah. Yeah. yeah In the nineties, it's a lot more like Gattaca.
00:14:33
Speaker
Right. Which is just an updated version of that. Exactly. So that's where we're at, but we got to get back to the gayness of Garrick because as a kid, I'm like,
00:14:47
Speaker
and And it's not registering for me at all. It's just that gar ah Garrick seemed like a very theatrical character because he had so many secrets and he was bored. like Yeah. Yeah. Just being a tailor on the station.
00:14:59
Speaker
And I love that Alexander Sinek, though, in all the interviews, like, yeah, I got what was going on and I just... played into it. It was a lot of fun to make Bashir completely oblivious or like innocent to it. And then Star Trek fans have a great point of like, why didn't they get together or why didn't
Garak and Bashir's Chemistry
00:15:16
Speaker
they ever hook up or why wouldn't it matter?
00:15:18
Speaker
Because or why would it matter at all? Because in the Star Trek future, You know, the the sexuality is a spectrum is supposed to be much more like and all it's all acceptable.
00:15:29
Speaker
So I don't know. I just was any of that picking up for you or did you have an inkling going into it that this might be something? Well, attention. I didn't actually, like though I've seen all of Lower Decks. And so I saw the Garak Bashir thing.
00:15:44
Speaker
And I remember you saying like, oh you know, this is something that pays off what audiences have wanted. And so in my mind, I was thinking maybe Garak's character gets killed off suddenly or is like dragged into some wormhole and we never see him again. And so this is like seeing him again is such a, it's so special, kind of like seeing Curzon Dax.
00:16:02
Speaker
And it was like, oh, it's Curzon and not Jaxia. And so that's what I was thinking. But I had seen that they in Lower Decks, you know, they're in a relationship. So then going back to this episode.
00:16:13
Speaker
Well, first of all, I kept waiting for him to be dragged off into the wormhole. because i assume that's what happened So I was like, at any minute, his shuttle is going to explode or his face is going to melt or something. Something like so shocking is going to happen. And we're going to have closure on this character.
00:16:28
Speaker
But thankfully, that didn't happen. At least it didn't happen in this episode. Yeah. However, having kind of that primed like perspective of what happened in Lower Decks, I could totally see the tension. Now, had I not seen that, I would have just thought they were really good friends.
00:16:43
Speaker
Just like really, really good friends with great chemistry as friends. But after seeing Lower Decks, I was like, oh, I see what people were. i I could totally see what people were seeing because that line between really good friends and people who are in a relationship and are really good friends you know is is very similar.
00:17:01
Speaker
right It's like these people get each other on such a deeper level than I just think you're hot because they're just you know enjoying conversation, enjoying one another. The chemistry was very palpable.
00:17:12
Speaker
And so I could totally, totally see why people were like, oh my gosh, they're finally together. Why did this not happen before? And freaking out in lower decks. Because they had the same chemistry in Lower Decks. They had this just like, you know, it was more like a married couple bickering. Well, they were a married couple. They were a married couple. And they were like bickering, but it was very real. I don't know, very organic.
00:17:32
Speaker
I also really loved that because both of them do sound older if you hear them nowadays, but at least in that episode, those, that episode, they sounded like they sounded in the show.
00:17:45
Speaker
It sounded younger. So I don't know if that's some sweetening on the digital, on the audio side, or if like just playing, a just playing their younger selves, they were able to get up and and do it. But I mean, and folks, anyone who's like, I disagree.
00:17:58
Speaker
ah big part of this episode is them sharing chocolates with each other.
00:18:05
Speaker
I got those chocolates for you, but you need them more. It's really sweet. It's really sweet. They're talking about Shakespeare and Julius Caesar. And I mean, it's they're having lunch together and but Bashir's eating dessert at lunch. It's just so...
00:18:21
Speaker
but She was eating eggs at lunch and a lot of eggs. And I was like, poor thing. How long, how many times they have to shoot this scene? Because he's probably eaten at this point a gallon of eggs, which I like eggs, but like and whenever I see people eating on TV, nine times out of 10, they're fake eating because they have to film it so many times. yeah But he looked like he was real eating. And I was like, ooh, his tummy's probably going to hurt at the end of this. Maybe he was really hungry that day.
00:18:46
Speaker
And that there's more to that scene, the opening scene, then I'll get to later, but just the opening scene. And then there's a later scene between the two of them where they're just like, they're so chummy where it's just like, and just the way Garrick looks at Bashir, it's like,
00:19:03
Speaker
There's more going on here than meets the eye. And actually that's not true. There's what's going on here is plainly in front of us. We just have to accept it and see it. Now why they never got together in the show is because we all know why they're the producers were a bunch of old men. They were like, no, that's not happening.
00:19:22
Speaker
We don't do that. This is star Trek. We are a mainstream. Puritan, like good of American show. And we're not doing any of that queer shit. And that's literally, that is basically remain the state the same, even to this day, to this day, all they'll really do is like, we'll have some queer baiting.
00:19:42
Speaker
We'll have like some suggestions that maybe things will be different. We might center a queer couple occasionally, but they'll be very chaste. You know, there are you a gay couple and they'll be very chaste.
00:19:54
Speaker
You know, it's just like Colbert and Stamets. The chemistry was was only in like they look really hot. Yeah, they're super hot. That's about it. it's That's about as much as you got. I think they shared like a really. ah limp kiss like i think that we got every so often but uh that's it and you know compared to the straights throughout the history i guess i'm bringing all this up because like gene ronberry was a freak and i'm definitely sure that even if he didn't participate directly he was open-minded of like people can be whoever they want to be and he probably would have pushed the romance a lot more yeah anyway but also he wouldn't have had the great storylines so it's a trade-off right
00:20:40
Speaker
It got paid off in Lower Decks, so we have that at least, and it was well done. It was fun. and You only need to wait like 30 years, but there you go. That's right. This is why I love Lower Decks is stuff like that, where you're like, thank you. I mean, we also got to see Harry Kim get promoted. It's just like, you're just like, thank you. Thank you, Lower Decks. We saw the risks of...
00:20:59
Speaker
Promoting Harry Kim. We did see the risks of promoting Harry Kim. We also see in the first season, there's a this, um there's like, they're they're in, Tendi's in the holodeck and she's covered in holographic blood.
00:21:10
Speaker
And then she walks out of the holodeck and all of it disappears because the holo emitters are only in the holodeck. And you're like, thank you. Because that was like my biggest complaint in TNG of how the holodecks do don't work, you know, because they were figuring out the how the technology the time.
00:21:24
Speaker
um So, yes, it took it took three years, but Lower Decks tried to pay us off for everything we've ever wanted to know and see. did its best. Some memory alpha notes about this one. um It's quoting extensively from my beloved Deep Space Nine companion, so I don't have to do it.
00:21:41
Speaker
ah Robert Lederman and David R. Long's original idea for this episode. revolved around the punishment exacted upon Garak by the Obsidian Order for his killing of Entek in the episode Second Skin.
00:21:52
Speaker
Garak realizes that someone is planning on assassinating him, so he blows up his own shop to ensure Odo gets involved. That's basically what the plot of this episode is. Although the producers loved the idea of Garrick blowing up his own shop, they dropped the link to Second Skin and then instead decided to connect the episode to another previous episode, this time Defiant.
00:22:11
Speaker
Specifically, they chose to reveal exactly what the Obsidian Order was up to in the Orius system. So I misread that. It wasn't the most recent episode. it was But it is like ah trilogy of sorts anyway.
00:22:23
Speaker
ah The episode was originally a standalone episode. This is crazy. But the writers realized that the story's original ending was too weak and decided to expand the plot to accommodate a second part. Initially, in Act 4 of the single episode script, Garrick tells Bashir that if anything should happen to him, there is an isolated rod behind a wall in his quarters...
00:22:43
Speaker
which he does in this episode, but he should find it and give it to Cisco. Then at the end of this episode with, with of the episode with Garrick and Odo trapped on the warbird, Garrick tells Tane that if he doesn't let them go, the information on the rod will be revealed to Starfleet, which compels Tane to release them.
00:23:01
Speaker
And then audience never finds out what's on the rod. The writers hated this ending as they felt it undermined an otherwise superb episode, but they were unable to come up with anything more satisfactory As Ronald D. Moore points out, everything we tried was just a writer's device or a cliche or a convenience or a cheat.
00:23:19
Speaker
That was until Michael Piller, in his last decision as executive producer of Star Trek Deep Space Nine, suggested they turn the show into a two-parter. but This necessitated a quick rewrite of the end of the episode so as to lead into part two.
00:23:32
Speaker
This would also be the third two-parter of the season.
00:23:37
Speaker
That's a lot. What a final act, though, as executive producer to still have enough story sense because I think at this point he's like firmly on Voyager also suddenly now developing stuff for UPN.
00:23:49
Speaker
um he I think he had he had a legend at least go for UPN. But he was, you know, he was moving on. And that this was his last idea, basically, for Deep Space Nine. Well, i have to say, he went out with a bang. That was a great decision.
00:24:03
Speaker
It really was. you And you can feel as this episode goes along that it needs more story. Like, when it comes to the end, if they were just like, okay, let us go. And then Tane's like, okay, fine, you're free. Everything they're saying is true.
00:24:15
Speaker
It would... so diminished the impact of the episode. You'd be like, oh, okay, well, it could have been real. And and it would have been subliminal. Like, you wouldn't have even realized that you're thinking, wow, this episode could have been really great, but it just wasn't, and I don't know why, you know?
00:24:28
Speaker
and it And for them to just be like, let's just say to be continued, and then we're going to keep going. It's like... It feels right. It it feels like enough. And then the next episode is great because, of course, I watched it because I was like, to be continued, because I also didn't know it two-parter because it didn't say part one. so at the very end, I was like, to be continued, what the heck? But I also was like, is this a to be continued? Because I don't see how they could wrap this up in like four minutes. i feel like we need to say more. And then the way they did the next episode was really smart also because the story is
00:25:05
Speaker
just so much bigger and more intense. They could have kept it just as, don't know, flatlined as this one was. Cause this is like, now this becomes the the backstory for the next episode, right? Which makes it so the next episode has to be bigger, better, more exciting.
00:25:17
Speaker
um And they absolutely delivered on that. But like even that gave them that was a good call, like to make a second part means the second part has to be better. And it pushed them to do something more. So that was a great last decision.
Expansion to Two-Part Episode
00:25:30
Speaker
It saved this episode, i I really think. By about the third rewatch, I'm like, this episode would have been really bad if it had that end. Yes, it would have been completely forgettable. Yep. This was the first Star Trek two part episode with different names for part one and part two.
00:25:45
Speaker
it tricked Charisse. It sure did. so It was also the first episode within a two parter or or multi part story arc to be directed by a cast member, Avery Brooks.
00:25:57
Speaker
This is just a random memory alpha note like. no one There's no one really keeping tabg tabs on this except for memory alpha, which is great. So Jonathan Frakes had previously directed the search part two and past tense part two, which you'll notice are not the first part. and he would But he was not a regular on Deep Space Nine. So basically they're saying like it's very rare that Star Trek actors have directed any part of a two-parter.
00:26:22
Speaker
Well, he wouldn't have directed this two-parter because it originally it was going to be a one-parter. So that tracks. And that shows up in the next episode that it was such a late change of making it a two-parter that this was, that the part two was not the next episode shot.
00:26:37
Speaker
Like that's how late in the game they made the change. So that's another interesting wrinkle about this one. ah This episode, along with the Dias cast, so the next episode, was broadcast by the BBC in a feature-length format on its first airing on March 13, 1997, or as they say in the March but wow you gotta to wait two years for this and then you get like a feature you get a movie i guess but anyway uh while discussing the dining experience with bashir garrick identifies tolarian so the actor is wearing makeup that corresponds to a coberian ah god get their asses memory alva that's right
00:27:21
Speaker
And this episode was nominated for an Emmy Award for Outstanding Individual Achievement in Hairstyling for a Series. Did you read this note or can I quiz you? I didn't read the note, no. Okay. So the ceremony for the 1995 Emmy Awards was hosted by Jason Alexander, George Costanza, and Sybil Shepard, who was in the CBS sitcom Sybil at the time.
00:27:41
Speaker
Okay. Okay. But the winner in that category, ah can you guess? um That's such an open field. 1995 TV, outstanding individual achievement in hairstyling for a series.
00:27:53
Speaker
No. Okay. i' I'll give you all of them and you tell me which one won. So Deep Space Nine, Voyager was also nominated along with Roseanne, Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman, The Nanny, and Babylon 5.
00:28:09
Speaker
And the category was best hair, you said? Individual achievement in hairstyling for a series. So the three sci-fi ones, Voyager, Deep State Stein, and Babylon 5. And then the other ones are Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman, Roseanne, and the Nanny.
00:28:22
Speaker
I'm going to go with Voyager. The winner was Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman. ah That was going to my fifth guess. That was the one show that whenever I'd go over to my grandparents' house, if it was on...
00:28:36
Speaker
I could stand it because it was on on a Saturday night. So already going over to your grandparents' house on a Saturday night and that's where your night's going to was like a bummer. And so it's like not that I love my grandparents, but it's also like, sorry, and i id like to be hang out with some friends or something. I'm 10 years old. I'm 12 years old.
00:28:53
Speaker
But if Dr. Quinn was on, it's like, I think I can i think i can manage this. It's all right. I can suffer through. Yeah, I can it. Okay, let's get into the grades then. We'll start with great scenes, Cherise. How many did you have?
00:29:04
Speaker
I have one, two, three, four, five. Okay, hit me. So the first one is the opening scene with the eggs, just like their, I thought it was breakfast, but apparently was lunch.
00:29:16
Speaker
Their lunch scene, the whole scene I just thought was lovely. Like the whole thing from beginning to end. It could be brunch. That's how gay the episode could be. That it could be brunch. Is brunch a gay thing?
00:29:28
Speaker
i'm learning so much about myself today. ah I'm just, again, looking back 30 years, brunch is not inherently gay, but two guys having brunch.
00:29:38
Speaker
That could be these two characters in particular. So ah very gay coded, perhaps. the i I'll take your word for it. But this scene was the scene was wonderful. And their banter was just so enjoyable and so natural and organic.
00:29:52
Speaker
um I also loved the sick bay scene um where they're kind of interrogating him and they're like, who did this? Who did this? And Garrick is just like, well, I mean, there was the Nausicaan whose wedding dress I was laid on. And then he's like, there's also major Kira. I don't think she likes me. And Odo's like, she doesn't.
00:30:11
Speaker
Who else? And it was just, that was just a great scene. If she wanted to kill you, you'd be dead. Yeah. If she wanted to kill you you'd be dead though. And he's like, yeah, that's, that's true. um That was a great scene when Garrick is slain.
00:30:24
Speaker
stays on the shuttle with Odo and does his like great speech of like he is getting away we must we must chase him immediately i like that whole scene it was just fun like I really like Odo and Garrick's um and know yin and yang thing they have going on and then the same situation when Odo confronts Garrick about blowing up his own shop so it's just like the Garrick and Odo tensions or confrontations. I really enjoyed those scenes.
00:30:50
Speaker
And then um another confrontation between them when Garrick confronts Odo about not having any new feelings or not caring for anyone. That whole scene was so great. i mean, it was just so like when he's like, well, you don't know what it's like and you're analyzing me and you don't have friends and all this other stuff. And is there anybody in your world that you love? And Odo's just like, well, if there was, I wouldn't tell you about it. You'd be the last person.
00:31:12
Speaker
And Garrick's like, good decision. and you're just like, oh my gosh, these two are crazy. Like these people are ah crazy. i mean, it was just, it was such a well done scene, but also just terrifying because it's like, you can feel that they're both threatening each other.
00:31:29
Speaker
and that they will both follow through on these threats 100%, but they're doing it in this but very casual, like, where should we go today kind of a which is what like increases the terror level for me, because I don't know, it's kind of like mobsters on TV or something, where they're like really dangerous, but they are they're dangerous in such a casual way that it makes you realize how familiar they are with danger. Right. So that's what I got.
00:31:52
Speaker
ah Those, I had, sorry. The only other one I had that you didn't have was an Auburn Tane revealing the whole plan. So the last scene of the episode, basically. It's kind of, it's longer than a lot of the scenes, or it's maybe as long as the, you blow up your own shop, Garrick! Like, it's maybe as long as that scene. But it's... It's, you know, revealing the whole plan. So he's monologuing a first strike against the Dominion.
00:32:14
Speaker
But also he's like, going do this and I'm going to take over the Obsidian Order. I'm coming out of retirement. And it's just like how did that resonates so much today. A boomer who won't step aside.
00:32:25
Speaker
ah yeah Let me come back. it's Apparently he's also bored, just like Garrick. He's like, I don't like this whole not being a spy thing. It sucks. I'm going to plunge the quadrant into war and then I'm going to do. And then I'm going to be, go back to my old job. Man, take a call for something. Come on, dude.
00:32:43
Speaker
So I really liked the scenes that you highlighted. The only, the one, cause I only had three, you had five and really we overlapped on most except for that last one. But there are a couple of scenes that you highlighted that I'm like, I know intuitively these are good scenes or great scenes, but I've either seen them so many times or again, the 30 years of distance of like, I've seen the scene now done better.
00:33:05
Speaker
And so I have to like, leave but you're viewing it through the lens of like, this is ah an angle of Star Trek I've never quite seen before. And it really, and you're in the, you're in the, um,
00:33:19
Speaker
The zeitgeist of Star Trek while you're watching it. And so I know what they were going for. And I think for the time they pulled it off in a lot of those scenes. um But at the same time, like just sometimes when I'm washing dishes as one of my third...
00:33:33
Speaker
third viewing, because I didn't should re-watch these three or four times. I'll just listen as I'm washing dishes. And so then um it's kind of like you're reading the dialogue a little bit. And it's like, this was, they're trying very hard to do what they wound up executing for you.
00:33:47
Speaker
And now I'm like, would you have needed to write it as much as they did today if you were doing it? that's And so that's where my little, there's a like a time element. That's why i like looking back on these episodes and be like, how do they hold up?
00:34:00
Speaker
But I kind of think you are more correct than I am. Like there are ah there are more great scenes than just three. So um good call. But I also just want to highlight how sometimes things change over time and there's nothing show could have done about it.
00:34:15
Speaker
Right. It's not expressing values that now conflict with how we view the world today. Right. It's just like literally how things are dramatized, slightly more sophisticated today than how they were then.
00:34:25
Speaker
Yeah. anyway And, you know, back in the day, they always they had like the close talking. I always realize this when I go back to watch Voyager. yeah re watches Yes. Yes. Or all the shows in the 90s. I mean, X-Files, all of them. Every actor is standing like one inch from the other actor.
00:34:39
Speaker
i don't know why. There's got to be more space than that. You No, you do know why. It's the framing. It's literally the frame. they have to We have to get them on camera. It's the anti-discovery, right? Because everything in Discovery was shot so gigantic, so gigantic, that the characters are standing 15 feet away, and they still are at the edges of the frame.
00:34:59
Speaker
But then the other part of it is, regardless of era, they say the camera adds 10 pounds, it also adds 10 feet. Does it? So if they look close on camera, they're actually even closer than you think. They're actually making out. you not There's no space.
00:35:14
Speaker
And in Discovery, it's it's remarkable that they look so far apart. Because they're slightly closer than you think, but they are. But the camera makes them look even further apart.
00:35:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's so it's so weird. It's it's a weird thing to even notice because that like that's not my zone of genius is really looking at caring too much where, you know, actors are placed necessarily. Like I pick it up more since I took a film class, but that's not usually my thing.
00:35:39
Speaker
However, I do always notice that with 90 shows is like they're always so close yeah And um I will agree with you about the dramatization because shows back in the 90s were very big. You know, it was almost like watching plays.
00:35:50
Speaker
So there was yeah and and now it's a lot smaller. Like the emotions are yeah they just zoom into the actor's face and there's just more subtle and micro expressions and stuff like that. It's not always big. Yeah.
00:36:02
Speaker
And I do think this would have been done very differently if this episode was shot today. However, I think it was perfect for what it is and where it is and how it is. And I want it like this because the updated version, like, i again, think just contrasting it with that last season of Discovery um and what the mo current treks are doing is they tend to repeat themselves. You pointed this out. They repeat themselves a lot.
00:36:22
Speaker
So that way the distracted audience can still know what's going on. And I do think this Odo-Garrick confrontation happened multiple times in this episode because those were like three of my great scenes was is the two of them confronting each other. Four of my great scenes was them confronting each other four out of five.
00:36:36
Speaker
So they do confront each other a lot, but they don't say the same thing over and over, which think they would do now. They would continue to be like, Garrick, you blew up your own shop. Garrick, you blew up your own shop. Remember when you blew up your shop?
00:36:46
Speaker
But that shop, you blew it up, Garrick. And you're like, oh my gosh, you already said that. In this, it's like every confrontation is a different thing. It's about the two of them not liking each other. It's about the shop or whatever.
00:36:57
Speaker
But they're actually saying different words and having different arguments, which makes it more realistic. Yeah. No, dead on. ah We don't have the most of its time quality anymore, but I think that we're talking to that point of like shows made today versus that. Best Trek tropes.
00:37:13
Speaker
You know, I actually, I don't have any. So Garrix Tall Tales. but You already highlighted it. Major Kira wants to kill him. You know, Garak is prone to telling stories. So this is like a Deep Space Nine trope.
00:37:26
Speaker
And Odo calls it out to Sisko. And Sisko's like, you're probably lying about the Romulans. like, no. He's actually telling the truth. He doesn't know why the Romulans tried to kill him. How do you know that?
00:37:38
Speaker
Because if he did, he'd be telling this big old story to try to throw us off the scent, basically. and And that's just, it's why Garak can be annoying. And in season six, oh, i'm I'm losing my Deep Space Nine cred here.
00:37:54
Speaker
in season six that he gets paired with Worf. Garrick does. And he tries to talk Worf's ear off and Worf's like, I'm going to fucking kill you.
00:38:09
Speaker
so But Garrick comes at it differently. He's like, I'm going to join Starfleet. Don't you think that's a great idea, Worf? And Worf's like, shut up.
00:38:23
Speaker
ah So it's just a Garrick thing, and sometimes it's it's annoying, and sometimes it's great. And here, um you know, I think it's a best Trek trope because... We get that major care line, but also it's what is really effective about this episode for that is the last scene where we see him be a blustering dissembling guy the whole time. And then when he's confronted with Tane's offer, join me, we see all of the, that pretension, all that,
00:38:57
Speaker
facade fall down and uh and then and then so it makes the reversal actually meaningful of like oh no he's and this odo has correctly identified that he cares about tame and now that's paying off then and all of this elaborate stuff gets winnowed down to the real core of the emotion the the core thing that's going on here um the heart of the episode so i thought that worked you know Also, while you know he's telling Bashir, go into my quarters.
00:39:27
Speaker
He's having fun with Bashir, right? And that's how he shows he cares, I guess, or you know how he's invested. and Yeah, because he could have said nothing. i think that that was, again, that was a moment. That was a clever moment.
00:39:39
Speaker
moment for the writers to put in just this little time of like because they still got to keep their idea of like look behind the panel there's an isolinear chip blah bla blah blah so they got to keep that in but they did it in a way that just shows more not only garrick's playful personality or mischievous personality but also that connection with bashir and then i want you to eat it you want me to eat it wait a minute you're just messing with me aren't you of course i'm messing with you all right see you later you know it's just kind it was just a great little it was a great little scene to throw in there And then the other one was, these are both Deep Space Nine tropes, Odo as a detective.
00:40:11
Speaker
it's you know I don't think the Odo detective episodes generally are all that good when it's centered on Odo, a simple investigation, all that stuff. But when he's investigating throughout a lot of the other episodes that aren't he's not the central figure, he's always really consistent.
00:40:28
Speaker
And ah although there are a couple of times, so like we see he goes to that ah deep throat Cardassian on that random planet. yeah He's visited him before.
00:40:39
Speaker
And I don't think he actually does go back to him. So I think the debt is paid. But like Odo's very clear on, like you owe me. like doesn't always pay off, but it's like nice that it's there. But the other part of it is because he's ah a shapeshifter, because he's a changeling, he is used to studying objects.
00:40:54
Speaker
And so that's why he's a good investigator, is he can notice the micro expressions and all that. And so that scene with you blew up your own shop, Garrick, and he's like... because it's TV, he has to call it out exactly. He's like, that's very interesting. I've never seen you make that face before.
00:41:10
Speaker
Like, I thought that was almost like a crow remembering the faces. He's like, I've never seen Garak look surprised before. I think all that stuff works. And like you said, you like their yin and yang, but that's what I like. It's like Garak's like pure lies.
00:41:25
Speaker
Yeah. And and ah Odo is just pure facts. Yeah. um and And so I appreciate that. I would say, again, another example of of its time or what doesn't quite hold up 30 years. It strains credulity that he would have Garrick sit down in his desk, in his and this chair, and then look through the... why Why not just give him a copy of the manifest? Yeah, just give him a data pad.
00:41:45
Speaker
Yeah, here's a piece of paper. So you can't access electricity. Just look at these things. Yeah. ah Someone get me a paper from Earth. Someone replicate a piece paper. Here's 10,000 names.
00:41:59
Speaker
ah why If there's anyone you recognize, let me know. Yeah. yeah All right. Worst Trek tropes. I don't have any for that either. Casual racism towards non-human species. It's like Lawrence of Arabia out here.
00:42:12
Speaker
I did notice that, but i wasn't I wasn't sure where to put it. I was like, there is some racial profiling going on, but I don't know if that's a trope that I see all the time. um So to be clear, the Romulans were trying to kill Garak, basically at the behest of Anabarantain.
00:42:27
Speaker
And so he was using letting the Tal Shiar do his cleanup because he didn't have access to the Obsidian Order necessarily. And so Garak spots this alien species, the Flaxian. A single Flaxian is on the station. He sees him. and Which explains why Garak's tailor shop is near...
00:42:47
Speaker
you know, the docking ring, the entrances. Yeah. He's like, you can see everyone who comes in. And so he goes, oh shit. My time is up. They're coming to kill me.
00:42:58
Speaker
He's like, well, no one's going to help me or figure this out. So I'm going to blow up my own shop. Because I can't go to Odo. I just can't ask for help. No one will believe me. But if I blow up my shop and kind of make people solve a puzzle, then they'll trust me and help me.
00:43:12
Speaker
and And so that's what happens. But the Flaxian gets a name, Charisse, and they still call him the Flaxian. His name is Retire, and they continue to call him the Flaxian. Garrick, at the beginning, yeah like I said, he's calling out the Tolarian, and it's just like, this is like a BBC sitcom where it's like, oh, a Bavarian and Bavarian. whatever a drama it's like it's like it's always it's very weird and star trek does it all the time especially in that in the later seasons uh where it's like the uridians and the whatever and it's like it's what what's happening here it's because
00:43:53
Speaker
ah It's like you you're basically saying like the Mexican. yeah and the yeah It's yeah very strange. And then monoculturalism. it's kind of like the subsection of that. So the flaxians are a species that focuses on smells.
00:44:07
Speaker
They have a basically a ah sniff detector that's like tells you when an alien of a certain scent is nearby and that will trigger a bomb. or trigger ah some sort of device. But then also that this particular Flaxion, now I'm drawing the the link because you've got the sense detector that Odo links to the Flaxions.
00:44:30
Speaker
Separate from that, but also somehow connected is that the Flaxion is planning to assassinate Garrick through mixing a couple of liquids to create a gas that causes a heart attack.
00:44:41
Speaker
So it's all very sniff based. Is what I'm saying. Yeah. The other one is that Romulan. And then along those lines, like the Romulans having a very specific kind of technology that indicates like a fingerprint on bombs.
00:44:55
Speaker
Yeah. You know, it's like a very like that is taking from the mind's eye from TNG, g which you covered. And do you remember that episode? Jordy's brainwash? Yeah.
00:45:05
Speaker
The mentoring. That episode works very hard to not make that a throwaway element. There's like these dummy Federation phaser rifles and Jordy and Dana. They're trying to obscure the facts.
00:45:17
Speaker
It's the opposite of this. that Yeah. i i So this, they were just like, there's, you know, Flaxians know how to do this kind of bombs. There's a single Flaxian who came in yesterday. He's probably a killer.
00:45:28
Speaker
Let's bring him in. Yep. He sure is. And then he blows up and they're like, well, you know, Romulans do these kinds of bombs. It's probably the Romulans. And the Romulans are like, yep, we did it.
00:45:39
Speaker
And you're like, oh, well, huh. i don't not Not a lot of investigating needed here. yeah So just don't be a Flaxian on this freaking space station. because This is like Frodo 24... plotting basically yeah they didn't go through any troubles to obscure anything and it was in the mind's eye they're like well this has a this phaser is not losing energy at the same rate of federation favorite starfleet phaser rifle is because it's got a different kind of crystal with the decay and i remember the scene very clearly jordi's
00:46:13
Speaker
Jordy and Data. Data's like, I could put it through the computer, but there's like 13 or 20 species that use this type of crystal.
Monoculturalism and Racism in DS9
00:46:22
Speaker
And then Jordy just does a reasonable thing. He goes, well, I don't think we need to think about it that hard.
00:46:26
Speaker
what you know What species would have the most to gain by there being a rift between the Klingons and the Federation? And they're like the Romulans and the Romulans are one of the, like one third number here it's exactly what you said. It's like this, then this, this, then this.
00:46:42
Speaker
And it's all drafting off this worst track trope of like monoculturalism, but also casual racism. little Yeah. racism in the anyway All right. I'll agree with that. Most cosplayable character or moment?
00:46:53
Speaker
I picked the Flaxian. Most interesting alien. Yeah. I didn't get his name. i didn't even hear them say his name until you just said that right now. I was like, when did they say that? ah When Odo's doing his little. When he's interrogating him? Yeah, he's interrogating him.
00:47:08
Speaker
So I almost put that as a great scene because I like the idea of it, but I don't think it got to where they, I don't think it reached the heights they thought it would. Like it was very clever that Odo was putting together the scents and like using the thing of like, I can't smell, but I need to get.
00:47:24
Speaker
You know, I need to get something for some people. ah And then he was about to mix the fatal drop in the flags and stops him. It's like it's it's smart until it becomes dumb.
00:47:35
Speaker
And so but it's like nothing to take away from the Flaxian who if they ever do an HD blow ah glow up for the show. will be an interesting makeup job to look at.
00:47:45
Speaker
Yeah. think that was a That was a lot of work for one scene. And that's one of the things I love about Trek. Not like early Trek, because it was terrible, but once they started really paying attention to the aliens, the amount of effort and thought that goes into aliens that you see for three minutes is like so powerful for the world building.
00:48:05
Speaker
Now it's time for the line, Mr. John. Yeah. Great lines. I have so many. um I actually deleted like half of them because I was like, okay, come on. Like this whole thing is just going to be great lines.
00:48:17
Speaker
Um, one of them is, is when after Bashir tells the story about the little boy who cried wolf and Garrick is just like, are you sure that's the point? And Bashir's like, what other point could it possibly be? And he says that you should never tell the same lie twice.
00:48:30
Speaker
i was like, Ooh, that's such a good line. Like that's such a good bad guy line. Why has nobody ever said that before? Like that should be in spy movies. That should be in double Oh seven. Like that's a good line. Um,
00:48:42
Speaker
And you know how many Deep Space Nine fans are happy right now to have you seeing Deep Space Nine for the first time and it you're we're seeing it again anew. It's like, yes, that was it was great.
00:48:55
Speaker
It was great. It was like, I i mean, and I had never because we all know that story, but I had never taken that particular lesson away from it, which is a good point. um Then i loved when Oda was like, bad news.
00:49:09
Speaker
Major Kira has an airtight alibi. That made me laugh out loud. It's like, you're going to have to find somebody else on this list. Great delivery by Rene Aboriginois.
00:49:20
Speaker
That was hilarious. um I like when Garrick said, the truth is just an excuse for a lack of imagination. Again, that's just like such a good bad guy line. um And then I put the entire speech. So you could play this one. The entire speech that Odo makes about I'm not Bashir and we're not chatting over lunch.
00:49:37
Speaker
Like that whole thing. i just loved. And so that's it. You blow up your own shop, Garrick! It's in the trailer. It sticks with you, though.
00:49:51
Speaker
If you go into my quarters and examine the bulkhead next to the replicator, you'll notice there's a false panel. Behind that panel is a compartment containing an isolinear rod. If I'm not back within seven, eight hours, I want you to take that rod and eat it.
00:50:05
Speaker
Um... Only that I find it interesting, another Garrick line, only that I find it interesting that you ascribe feelings and motivations to me that you know nothing about.
00:50:16
Speaker
Or am I wrong? Tell me, is there one person in this universe you do care for? One person who's more than just an interesting puzzle to be solved? Is there Odo? Anyone? If there were, I certainly wouldn't tell you.
00:50:28
Speaker
That's my Odo, everyone. That's a good Odo. Yeah. And that would be a wise decision. ah Like, you already called that out, but that was a good moment. And, um... multiple moments reminding that Garrick is not just a simple tailor.
00:50:43
Speaker
He's not just, he's not your friend, that kind of thing. Yeah. He's nice, but he's totally untrustworthy, which is so yeah disturbing. Right. Cause like, that's what makes him a great spy is that he's like, I'm a tailor. i i don't know what you're talking about. I'm a tailor. And you're like, you seem to believe that, but no one else seems to believe that.
00:51:01
Speaker
It's tough because between Odo or excuse me, it's tough be to because between Quark and Garak, neither of them are trustworthy, but it's like i have a better chance of surviving an encounter with Quark than I do with Garak.
00:51:16
Speaker
but When they betray me, one of them is more likely to kill me than the other. ah But Thamesese Nine is ah treacherous in that way. And then i my last great line was just Odo being in that room when the Nabran Tane and Garrick are swapping stories, but also their plot. And Odo says, frankly, I don't find any of this any of this interesting.
00:51:39
Speaker
You both go to such lengths to hide the true meaning of your words, you end up saying nothing. Odo just being like over solid bullshit. Any humanoids talking that is maybe a great trope too. But ah Rene Bourgeois as Odo is so great at playing when he's fed up or he's just like does not want to be there. And he thinks all pointless and a good you know, it'd be easy for Odo to get lost in that scene. And and all the Star Treks are guilty of this sometimes where there's like a third character in a room.
00:52:09
Speaker
And it's like, wait, what happened? That character just standing there and listening all the time and it was like good that odo was still involved in this scene the whole time and um anyway it was like he was choosing not to participate as opposed to hovering awkwardly in the background because he doesn't have any lines that's right that's right would this have been a fun holo novel to play out i put yes on this one i would like to be the odo detective okay so if you're odo it's fun if you're garrick it's not fun Now, if you're playing this as Cisco, it's probably middle fun.
00:52:43
Speaker
Because I'm with him. I wouldn't want my station blowing and I wouldn't want my station blowing up. And I also like ah Cisco's line of like, innocent people could have been hurt. You might have been killed. Yeah, and that was that was hilarious. That was hilarious. I noticed that too. I was like, oh, did anybody else?
00:52:59
Speaker
Okay. Innocent people could have been hurt. And you could have been killed. You're not innocent. And you would have, you know, this was all about you, buddy. I also thought, as I always do whenever I see stuff like this, fire plus space is bad.
00:53:13
Speaker
Very bad. It's so bad. We only have so much oxygen here. i think We need it for ourselves, not for the fire. Yeah, explosion in a confined space, in space. In space.
00:53:24
Speaker
Yeah. Theoretically should cause an infinite fire. Right? Because it's igniting oxygen that's being pumped in. Yeah. And that theoretically is not going anywhere like it would. Yeah. Anyway.
00:53:38
Speaker
So ah very bad. Maybe that should have been a worse Trek trope. It's like... It expires in space. It expires in... Explosions in space. Yeah. Yeah. Terrifying. Indoors anyway, in space, I guess. Yeah. When the whole ship explodes, it's kind of a moot point.
00:53:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. uh so the anton crudian award for best performance i know we're going to disagree on these two so who do you have i have garrick so i have him as my shatner i have odo as my shatner okay what do you have for your for i had paul duly as an auburn tame because he has like he's so slimy and can we have all three of them I don't know.
00:54:18
Speaker
I just thought they were great. They were all great. I like Rene Abortionment. I like the character of Odo. I almost never... cotton to any performance he gives us oh no there's something about the voice and the stiltedness that i'm never quite into so for i personally can't do it but if i if you want to a three-way tie as the Anton Crudion for all three of them that's fine we've never done that now that would be appropriate they've never done a star trek two-parter with two different titles Until this one. Yeah. So maybe this is the first one.
00:54:51
Speaker
yeah OK, so then for the Shatner, then let I think we'll agree on this, actually. we're giving the Anton Caridin to those three, then the Shatner should go to Alexander Sittig for the way he's eating those eggs.
00:55:07
Speaker
It's distracting. He's really going for it to really communicate. I'm in a hurry. i have to eat quickly. Yeah. And he's actually eating. He's not just forking food towards his mouth and then just putting the fork down over and over. could eat lot of eggs.
00:55:23
Speaker
I could eat a lot of eggs. I mean, I like eggs, but wow. I like watching that scene. I was just like, buddy, whoof. If he's shooting like that, he might have had no, he probably had two days of shooting.
00:55:37
Speaker
I can't imagine they did the promenade sick bay and the in the corridor. OK, but if that was like his last scene of the day, I could see him doing it or he skips breakfast and that's his first scene of the day.
00:55:49
Speaker
Either way, I can see it working. ah Do you agree with that? Yeah. right. The shoot to thrill most exciting image or sequence. I have two.
00:56:00
Speaker
The first is when Garrick's shop explodes. I was so shocked. And again, big fire indoors in space, terrifying. or what you want. No, all the things we don't want.
00:56:11
Speaker
And then the second one was the cave scene where Odo goes to talk to that other spy Cardassian. That's a good one. Oh, I like that. Because they have all those different shots where he's looking over his shoulder. Yeah.
00:56:25
Speaker
I have never seen a scene like that before where one character is physically above the other character and the first character is staring at you, the camera. The other character is looking down. Like, Just the whole mise-en-scene was beautiful.
00:56:39
Speaker
That bright blue glowy light in this cave. And the fact that they played the whole scene like that. I mean i thought it was going to be just like a moment. But no, it was literally the whole scene. He turns around for one second to catch that data pad or whatever.
00:56:51
Speaker
And then Odo turns right back around to the camera. was like, I've never seen a scene like this in any movie or show. it was really It was really surprising in a really good way. ah I think that should be it. That should be the sole winner. Because I was with you that the teaser, but you're totally right. Avery Brooks was cooking a little bit in that sequence.
00:57:09
Speaker
He's like, well, this is going to be fun and interesting. and Well, and it makes the whole conversation better because really it's just exposition. It's really just like, do you know? Oh, you're so clever. Have you figured it out? There's something more going on. Like they're not really saying much of anything because it's a spy craft situation. So you have to be all like roundabout and not say anything directly.
00:57:27
Speaker
So making the scene look visually interesting makes you sort of kind of pay attention to what they're saying, which is all the attention you need to pay because they they don't really get anything much out of it other than this is bigger than you think.
00:57:38
Speaker
Yeah. What part of this will they teach at Starfleet Academy? um I put that assassins don't vary their methods, which if you watch crime shows as much as I do, you would already know that trope, but that it could also be used to frame someone.
00:57:54
Speaker
And I feel like that's an important part to teach these upcoming Starfleet cadets who are going to be in security that sometimes the fact that they don't vary their methods is just a frame job.
00:58:04
Speaker
And you should be looking for that also. I put, that's a good one. Cause I almost never think about the security training that goes on intelligence training, et cetera.
00:58:15
Speaker
Cause you gotta imagine it's not great. You gotta imagine their security training is not fantastic. Almost 60 years of Star Trek, Starfleet security. I'm aware. Not good. Yeah. A lot of holes in that.
00:58:27
Speaker
So that one like overnight class that they take could have some more info in it. to pack a little more detail into it. They're all online courses that they take. Yeah, that's great.
Cultural Misunderstandings
00:58:43
Speaker
ah what part of Mine was, though, I think the Xeno anthropology might explore ah the the opening conflict where Bashir can't believe that Garrick is sort of dismissing Julius Caesar. And Garrick had the whole plot figured out in the first act and all this stuff. And there's something too...
00:59:03
Speaker
how other species react to human culture that tells us about their culture. Right. So and and kind of like as a cultural exchange, Cardassian, like if we take Garak as a pretty standard Cardassian, which I don't think we're supposed to, but for the sake of this podcast in this moment, let's just do that.
00:59:23
Speaker
Just the idea that Cardassians are inherently untrusting, you know, they are supposed to be like snakes and, you know, individualistic, that kind of thing. ah that But they're also fascists.
00:59:35
Speaker
you know So they're like basically they only trust their family and only to an extent. And betrayal and all that stuff. The idea that they cannot conceive that human beings could trust somebody is an interesting tension point that would be explored.
00:59:52
Speaker
So like maybe there is a class of like that you know that the conservatives of the 24th century would be like, you know, banning books from the library of like, maybe there are alien plays that, that students at Starfleet Academy read to get an understanding of another culture and vice versa. Maybe that is part of cultural exchanges he is this exchange of arts and ideas and philosophies.
01:00:16
Speaker
So i thought that was, to me, that's what jumped out, but yours is probably more tangible, more actionable. Well, yours is more likely to actually be taught than any kind of security training. Yeah, that's a really good point. That's a really good point. And I think just understanding other cultures from all perspectives, like it could be a diplomatic class. It could be like there's a lot of different reasons why this could be really important.
01:00:39
Speaker
Or even to like there's um there's this. episode, at this I think it's the the Macrocosm episode with the giant virus in Voyager, where it starts out with Janeway and Neelix coming back from some um like ambassadorial meeting with some culture and she put her hands on her hips. And that's like the most vile vulgar thing you can do in their culture. And it almost started a war.
01:01:00
Speaker
And Neelix had stepped in and like You know, we're so sorry and whatever. And he like smoothed it all over. And she was like, what did I she was like, I just couldn't get the hang of their of their communication style because their communication was.
01:01:13
Speaker
Yeah. physical and she kept just doing these regular just normal human things that were completely offensive and horrible right and it's like yeah like this like this could start a war because you put your hands on your hips because you didn't even think that another culture could see this as anything other than casual Yeah, that's a good point.
01:01:35
Speaker
That kind of exposes Star Trek's Western civilization perspective, though, because almost always, and any time we see examples of this, it's the that our characters doing something wrong or having to say the right sequence of words so that the alien other doesn't like fly off the deep end and do something like start a war or like are are offended and it's like I'm just being how I am how is this offensive and what I guess what mean because it's that's easy to convey in film and TV that makes sense but like what
01:02:10
Speaker
Is there a version, especially if you were doing 22 or 26 episodes and you had to do some budget savers? Could you do misunderstandings based on simple cultural lockups that don't involve the Earth men being a problem? You know, like I really thought that the Cardassian perspective on a human thing, there's got to be an interesting story about inverting the the conflict.
01:02:34
Speaker
You know, like because Romulans think this way, it causes this issue with our characters, you know, that kind of thing. And it's a misunderstanding. And sometimes we do. Now I'm saying this out loud.
01:02:46
Speaker
Sometimes I do see that where like aliens will misinterpret something humans are doing and they'll have to explain Picard will have to explain. Kirk will have to explain. Cisco will have to explain. you know Cisco explains the concept of linear time aliens. Those types of things happen.
01:03:02
Speaker
ah so I don't know, but I just thought that was a really interesting ah perspective that I wish there'd just be a little bit more of it. Deep Space Nine will just dip into it every so often. If you haven't seen the root beer scene you should google that you should watch that scene between garrick and quark uh that's ah that's a fun one uh could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better i've been waiting all week to give you this answer so but do you have any i i thought there was plenty of chemistry between bashir and garrick but what did you what did you think
01:03:34
Speaker
Well, this is like my least favorite question. I never know how to answer it. So, well, I think you're I'm with you. We agree on the top line. Yes, this episode had a lot perfect level of horniness. You're citing Bashir and Garak, which is great.
01:03:49
Speaker
But did you know that Dr. Bashir and Major Kira IRL dated, got married, had a baby dated, had a baby, got married? Are they still? No, I did not know that. Are they still married?
01:04:02
Speaker
No, they were only married for four years. ah But their relationship began in 1995, which is when this episode came out. And in their scene together in the teaser, they look like they want to sleep with each other as soon as avery Brooks yells cut.
01:04:18
Speaker
And so thought the episode was horny in the text between Garrick and Bashir. The chocolates. I mean, come on. and then Bashir brings the chocolates back to him. He's like, here you go.
Real-Life Chemistry of Actors
01:04:30
Speaker
ah but But clearly Bashir and Kira are making eyes at each other in their completely superfluous scene that's only there to like give you a pause before the explosion ah just shock you.
01:04:44
Speaker
And so kudos to catching love on screen. i always like and when that happens on camera. Yeah. This episode is perfectly horny. This might have been like perfectly balanced, horny episode of Star Trek because it doesn't.
01:04:57
Speaker
I don't see how it offends people because you can either ignore the Bashir and Garak thing if you want. Or if you care about that, you can ignore the real life chemistry that you see either way. Everyone's got an option here. huh That's right.
01:05:10
Speaker
So Trek, marry or kill improbable cause.
Conclusion and Episode Rating
01:05:13
Speaker
This one was a trek for me. Yeah, it was a high trick though. Yeah, I really liked it. Yeah, I think Michael Piller saved it.
01:05:22
Speaker
It made it a check for me because this one was almost soft enough, maybe because I've seen it so many times that I was like, maybe this one has kind of faded into like good for its time, not good for now.
01:05:34
Speaker
But ah yeah, it's ah it's a very solid trick. All right. And next week we're going to do the exciting conclusion and we'll see if if that lives up to the setup here.
01:05:45
Speaker
ah But in the meantime, don't have to wait a week to hear Sharice. You can see her online, but where, Sharice? You can see me on YouTube if you type in at the Sci-Fi Savage and you can join us for our weekly live streams where we talk all things Star Trek.
01:06:02
Speaker
It's a lot of fun. If you have questions you want to ask Sharice or you want to participate in the conversation, you're really good at like... You don't let them linger. Like you're really good at making your point and then you're like, oh, question. And then you just toss it in there. So if you want to feel like you're part of a conversation because you're not like actually live having conversation, you're really good at nailing those chats.
01:06:22
Speaker
So thank you so much. Check out Sharice there. We're TrekMerryKpod on social media, trekmerrykillpod.com on the web. You can see all of our standings. How many Treks, Marys and Kills have we given to Deep Space Nine at this point or all the other shows?
01:06:35
Speaker
And so until next week. Tim, count. Bye.