Transcript
Speaker: Next on Trek, Mary kill father, son, adventure, energize. Cisco embarks on a mythical voyage. According to legend, the ancient Bajorans used ships like these to explore their star system of danger.
Speaker: I'm not sure this design is space worthy and discovery. We'll make a sailor out of you yet. But will his journey into the unknown lead him into disaster on the next Star Trek Deep Space Nine?
Speaker: Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Kristen. Welcome to Check, Marry, Kill, a podcast that's all about fathers and sons going on an adventure. Right? No, I don't know. We're winding down our third season by winding up Star Trek Deep Space Nine and a theme month called DS9 Season 3 Leap Forward.
Speaker: So I don't know, that's not a good title. I never really landed on a good theme month title. There you Kristen. It's your first episode in this theme month. so Yes, it is. Welcome to it.
Speaker: Explorers is the 22nd episode of Star Trek Deep Space Nine's third season. It premiered in syndication May 8th, 1995, so a little over 30 years ago. Cannot believe it. a Teleplay by Renee Echevarria from a story by Hilary J. Bader, directed by Cliff Bull.
Speaker: Memory Alpha describes it. Cisco builds a replica of an 800-year-old Bajoran spaceship and tries to use it to prove that Bajoran Explorers could have made it to Cardassia without developing Warp Drive.
Speaker: So it's kind of like ah an Ocean Gate situation a little bit. ah But Memory Alpha isn't telling us is that he's able to.
Speaker: Well, Jake Sisko joins him on the adventure, feeling sorry for his old dad. Yeah.
Speaker: Jake's also just been admitted to a prestigious school because of his writing. um And in the other storyline, Dr. Bashir is nervous to talk to the woman who is the valedictorian of their class, who he thinks is better than him in every way. And it turns out not only does she not really know who he is, she's insanely jealous of the work he gets to do.
Speaker: This B story is top notch for me.
Speaker: I can't wait to hear all about it. This is kind of a fun episode. It has so much, I don't think about you, Don Draper, I don't think about you at all energy. It's also an episode where Brian and Bashir sort of bond over this. So it's um yeah one of that one.
Speaker: I couldn't find this written anywhere, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been said. so let me say it here anyway. I think it's a wonderful bit of symmetry that the season begins with Cisco bringing to Deep Space Nine a ship of war, the Defiant, which he helped build.
Speaker: And it ends with him creating a ship of dreams that creates a moment of peace and unity. I don't know if that's intentional or not. I just think that's pretty um and amazing ah symmetry there.
Speaker: ah Kristen, do you remember the first time you saw this episode? Yes, it was yesterday afternoon. Holy cow. I would have remembered this one, but I don't. I don't have any memory of it, unfortunately.
Speaker: I was surprised by how much of this episode I remembered. It really stuck with me. I'll probably explain that a little bit later, but there are a couple of key moments. I will say I completely forgot about the Bashir storyline.
Speaker: That was a complete blank to me. i was like, oh, I don't remember. I kind of vaguely remember what the woman looked like. So there was that. I think I've seen that woman woman on other Star Trek or like women who look exactly like her. I feel like they but when they do day players like hair, makeup, I think they just kind of do it all like that.
Speaker: Fair, fair. So, I mean, she looks really familiar in a day player who's been on TV before. She's, yeah, she's in the cultural subconscious of Star Trek viewers. She's in the pool. Sub question.
Speaker: Do you think the cabin of that Bajoran spacecraft, because it was two dudes, just reeked of farts?
Speaker: Hmm, because they didn't have like the air recycling. Yeah, and and it's just two guys. I'm sure they were ripping farts. And they have a seen space toilet. yeah they have a space toilet that will take some getting used to.
Speaker: Well, they haven't been there that long. I feel like it's at least a couple of days. Doesn't feel like it happens in a day.
Speaker: Yeah, like maybe 36 hours. Okay, that's fair. 48 at the most, I would say, right? I would agree with that. You know what? I'd go with that. That makes sense. um Very possibly, because you have a teenager as well. Teenage boys, you know.
Speaker: Yeah. Father-son bonding. And they're eating the space rations. Who knows what that does to the system? That's right. Station food, then to the rations. Yeah. Yeah, they're they're eating basically the space food, this like that like the actual astronaut food that is in real life.
Speaker: It's horrible. I know if you've ever had it, Brian, but it is truly horrible. Never had it. Have you ever gone on an adventure with your father? um Yeah, like just to an extent.
Speaker: like we would do like My dad does like individual trips with us like when we were growing up and stuff. so We went to Washington, D.C. once. That was fun. Nice. Did you stand outside the White House and boo?
Speaker: This was during the Clinton administration, so no, I did not. I did not do that. We were at school. like i was like what and When each of us got to, I think it was like sixth or seventh grade, my dad would take us on a trip to um Washington, D.C., and then i think my sisters both got to go to New York, too.
Speaker: But I was the first one, so the trip wasn't as like good. Oh, that's cool. This was a trip. They don't do this anymore. But you, my dad had friends who worked at the FBI and they used to give like a VIP tour where as part of the tour, you get to stand in the shooting range and hold Tommy guns that were confiscated from gangsters in the 1920s. Like these were real guns.
Speaker: And they send you a picture and a key chain that says wanted by the FBI. oh my God. For free. And so, and the and on the VIP tour, you get to see all the confiscated furs and diamonds and stuff.
Speaker: but Like they have a display of like the coolest stuff they've confiscated. I've never heard that before. Yeah, that's because they don't do it anymore, Brian. But like you used to, let like we used to be a proper country. Okay.
Speaker: Like you could, anybody could take a, just a regular tour of the FBI. Again, I don't know if they still do this. But the the gun range thing, that they don't do that anymore.
Speaker: and It was kind of a post 9-11. They don't really do fun things like that anymore. and like my dad one of my dad's other friends worked at the Pentagon, so we got like a cool tour there. i don't think i don't know if they do the VIP tour of the Pentagon anymore.
Speaker: Yeah, it seems like a post 9-11 thing of like maybe not as well. ah Well, my dad offed himself when I was young, you know, he he said, yeah, no good. I'm good. Peace out. But before he did, he did take me on ah fishing trip once. He might have taken me twice, but the one I remember, ah he kind of sort of taught me a little tiny bit out of fish, but that was sort of his thing to find peace and get away from it all. So him bringing me along was like a big deal. And the main thing I remember is he cast back and he like cracked his fishing rod on on the side of my head.
Speaker: That was fun. There was some other times where, you know, we'd play wiffle ball or whatever. And it I full credit, he would never go easy on me. My dad blew out his.
Speaker: but He is one of those stories. Best player in the region that he blew out his knee and he missed a shot in big leagues. But ah so it was just fun when he would just fucking wreck me in wiffle ball.
Speaker: That was always fun because in the front yard, he could hit it across the street. And as a little kid, that's amazing. So it's that was always fun. yeah like ah Was there ever like a father-son t-ball tournament and you guys were the ringers?
Speaker: So he was the assistant coach because the the the kid's dad who there was a kid's dad who wanted to do it and wanted him to help. And it was it was kind of one of those things where the coach was like really into I'm the coach.
Speaker: And he was more like, hey, just let him play because his dad pushed him. So he's like, I'm not going to push my son and I'm not going to be mean to these kids. I'm just going to kind of teach them the fundamentals that they don't want to do it, whatever. It doesn't matter. So was kind of his his vibe there.
Speaker: um And i only sometimes was like, man, I really stink at baseball. My dad's really good. Oh, well, like that's about the extent of it. my deb Yeah, my dad used to be a really good bowler.
Speaker: And did you pick up any of that? No, absolutely zero. he would out He would just smoke us at bowling, though. Like no mercy. Like he had own ball and everything and shoes.
Speaker: Sometimes you just want to see. sometimes Sometimes you just want to be and in the front row of excellence. What's wrong with that? You want someone good at it, do it. And then you get to go home with them. And then there you go. It's fine.
Speaker: i don't know. Maybe that screwed me up. I'm not sure. It just made it hard for me to think about other father son stories in media. I was like, ah Johnny Quest. ah Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
Speaker: what What am I missing? What else is there? Let's go fight some Nazis, son. Yeah. ah gavin California Governor Gavin Newsom bonding with this 13-year-old son over right-wing podcasts?
Speaker: is that Is that the true story? That is the true story oh why Gavin Newsom is now right-wing podcasts. I thought it was far more sinister in that he was just listening to some stupid consultant.
Speaker: He was his 13 year old son. No, like a paid one. Not, you know, just dumb teenager. Like, you should go on Joe Rogan. Yeah, he's like Charlie Kirk. literally Legitimately, Charlie Kirk is great.
Speaker: And he was like, wouldn't you think you failed? This is Mike Gavin Newsom. If he's talking to my boy. I mean, that's probably pretty close it. I don't have gaffinous of the question. I just always think of it shouting.
Speaker: It sounds like... Yeah, he's shouting. But wouldn't you think you failed as a dad if your kid was like, yeah, I love Charlie Kirk? I mean, how how ah non-conservative is Gavin Newsom? He's pretty conservative.
Speaker: First of all, he's the governor of California. So except for like Jerry Brown, they're all effectively Republicans. And so like he's, who is his ex-wife? Oh, Kimberly Guilfoyle. Yeah. Who's like, like, so it's, to me, there's not like a big change here.
Speaker: The guy does PR where he's, he's trashing people's possessions out in the streets. Like I don't. So that was in case so in my opinion. ah like i Like, as soon as Kamala lost, or the writing was on the wall, I don't remember exactly, or like, it was little it was a few months before that. It was, like, in the... As soon as he knew he was not going to be the Democratic nominee, he went full heel turn, or, like, mask off, and that's when he started throwing homeless people's stuff out personally.
Speaker: We already talked about it on this podcast, like, as it was happening. Yeah, I think he... Yeah, it was a mask off moment, so... The small his child provides. I don't have any like actual sources for this, but my feeling was Nancy Pelosi was like, oh yeah, we're going to push out Biden and then we're going to have like a little open ah convention.
Speaker: And she was like, you know, my boy Newsome over here can maybe do it. And then absolutely, that is not what happened. And then he was like, fuck it. It's plausible. It's plausible. I just sent you my FBI photo.
Speaker: My photo from the FBI. Hold on. Let me check it out here. I did lose the key chain that said wanted by the FBI, though. That part I'm very upset about. I don't know. it like probably broke a million years ago, but I had it on my backpack at school for a while.
Speaker: This photo could not be more 1990s. Oh, yeah. Like, if just I'm wearing long jean shorts. Yeah. long jean shorts I just got hit by a... High tops.
Speaker: I just got hit by ah one of those slap bracelets. It hit me so hard. rep And there's a, you know, since this is an audio podcast, there's like ah you know, one of those targets in the background and that's like real bullet holes.
Speaker: Like that that's really the shooting range where they were practicing. that please showcasing their yeah Remarkably the silhouette vaguely resembles James Carville. Yeah. Look,
Speaker: At the time, all the bulls are closer near the crotch. Yeah. yeah
Speaker: This um an amazing picture. Kristen has, I've seen Kristen and and this is some of the happiest she's ever looked. and so and Age 12 or 13 holding.
Speaker: you know was It doesn't guns. That guy, my I remember that gun was quite heavy. I believe it yeah And they were like, well, the Tommy gun was a revolution because it was actually a a lightweight machine gun.
Speaker: And I remember thinking, oh, i this is heavy. But for a machine gun, I guess it isn't. Your dad looks like he's handling it. No problem. It looks like he's handled one. Well, for a 12 year old who had never done any like weightlifting, it was.
Speaker: you look heavy Yeah. But this is ah an amazing time capsule of something no one can do again. It's like you went on a Disneyland ride. that no I mean, I'm sure nowadays they just let whatever donor come in. Republican donor come in and do it. But like for a while, this was, you know, they that it was in poor taste, I guess.
Speaker: what Once there was an actual like most wanted by the FBI who like killed thousands of Americans, they were like, maybe we shouldn't be handing this stuff out as souvenirs. Maybe it's a little bit tasteless.
Speaker: That's fair. That's a good call. But is it? ah But yeah, we used to be a country.
Speaker: So all this month we've been looking at episodes of the show that proved its third season as the one that cemented it as the classic it has become. a lot of people like to say, oh, it's when they added Worf or when they started the Dominion War arc.
Speaker: But no, no, it is right here in season three. ah Explorers features multiple firsts that will that set the stage for the rest of the series. Cassidy Yates is mentioned for the first time. Basically, that's the freighter captain that Jake wants to set her up with. That's who that's who Cisco would wind up marrying.
Speaker: And i I think they they don't have the baby yet, but she's pregnant at the end of the show. ah Ben Cisco sports a goatee for the first time. He sure does. And it's remarked on in dialogue. That's right. And you can kind of hear the hooting and hollering you listen very closely in the soundtracks.
Speaker: ah Everyone's very excited. He keeps it throughout the series. then And then, of course, he shaves his head as the finishing touch ah for at the start of season four. The awkward moment between O'Brien and Bashir where they where he's...
Speaker: He's saying like, oh, I used to hate you and now i I don't hate you instead of saying I love you or I really like you. You know, it started. This is a running joke about how much the chief loves Bashir more than Keiko O'Brien, perhaps.
Speaker: ah But this is like the the expansion of their friendship. Their bonding is much closer. Lita, who goes on to become Rom's wife, makes her first appearance here, just ah blatantly hitting on Dr. Bashir.
Speaker: i have so much to say about that, but. ah And then the episode contains the second hint of Jake's literary talents, which was revealed in the the Abandoned.
Speaker: And then we'll learn he's written about the Maquis. But obviously, this is very important for the next season in The Visitor, which and shows that, you know, old Jake Sisko becomes a writer and he, you know, a famous one and all that stuff. So it's all set up there.
Speaker: The Deep Space Nine companion, my beloved Star Trek Bible of sorts, ah tells us Hillary J. Bader's original story featured O'Brien rather than Sisko and Jake Sisko.
Speaker: It was the producers who decided that they needed a father-son episode. The song Jerusalem, which is sung by O'Brien and Bashir during a drinking binge, was chosen by Colmenian Siddig El-Fadil, who at the time, that's his real name, Alexander Siddig is his name.
Speaker: was a stage name that he changed it to in the middle of the run of the show. um So after the producers determined they sing Jerusalem because the producers, the original choices were Louie Louie and Rocket Man.
Speaker: And they were was out too expensive. Yep. So it's like ah as a call me and he says, oh, sorry. Sid says ah Jerusalem was very familiar to both of us. It's like an anthem in England and something that drunk people might very well sing.
Speaker: ah During production, this episode was known as the butterfly episode. The light ship and the basic plot of the episode was inspired by the voyage of the Contiki, a deliberately primitive sailing craft that Norwegian explorer Thor Heyerdahl used to sail from Peru to Tahiti in 1947. Our second Tahiti reference on Checkmate Hill, substantiating his belief that it was possible that a pre-Columbian South American civilization could have settled Polynesia by making a trans-oceanic voyage.
Speaker: Ira Baer commented, I want to pay special homage to Renee Eshvria, who I thought wrote a really wonderful script and gave Cisco his best role in the history of the show. The best role in the history of the show.
Speaker: Avery was wonderful. For the ship itself, I also have to give a nod to Herman Zimmerman. When we went on stage and walked the ship, it was probably how they felt about the time machine from the 1960 movie.
Speaker: A great little piece of equipment. Can I just say, in my time in working in Hollywood, that most of the people who are still in power and running shows, there is like, if the movie was not, if the product wasn't made between 1940 and like 1965, haven't seen it.
Speaker: Like, and like the time machine, there's so many old movies and stories that are just the touchstones for everything that they're still doing to this day a lot of the time.
Speaker: And I don't know how I feel about it, but I also know that when I hear people being like the touchstones, being like Buffy the Vampire Slayer or the West Wing or more recent stuff, I'm like, I don't know about that. Hold on now. Now I need to rethink this.
Speaker: I'd rather someone be inspired by, say, North by Northwest than like... ah Then like enemy in the state. Yeah. and be in the state ah So I don't know It's just stuff like that is interesting me. I just, pointed out.
Speaker: ah So then Irobaro is also like, don't throw this out. Don't trash it. Keep it somewhere because this goes in the Star Trek museum someday. It's just a great prop. That's an extension of my belief. I'm like, sure. Yeah. People want to see the time machine looking ship that they built for that one episode and never refused. Like, Yeah. It's a great set. There's no question.
Speaker: Like that is the thing that does enchant me every time I watch the episode it's just like the detail in it. Remastered scenes from the episode are featured in the documentary, What We Left Behind. The liquor that O'Brien and Bashir were drinking, Kristen, is called We Bairns.
Speaker: Very nice. Regrettably, the episode wound up being the second lowest rated of the season, 6.7 million viewers, according to Nielsen. The lowest episode of the season aired just three weeks later, and that episode was Facets, which I believe is the one where Dax is able to convince everybody to... ah you give their bodies over to this trill ceremony where the souls of the symbiont go into their bodies.
Speaker: So, uh, and then finally in reality, ah solar sail would need to be several miles wide to propel a vessel even of this size. So solar sails, guess are scientifically plausible.
Speaker: There you go. Let's get into the grades. All right. Great scenes. Yeah. I have a few. Okay. um I do love the cold open where who space bimbo. I'm so sorry.
Speaker: lee Complimentary. Complimentary. Lita
Speaker: is like, Dr. Bashir, I have a cough. ah hu And they're flirting big time. Then Dax breaks it up. And then Bashir hands her a tablet that says, go away. oh gosh. Yes.
Speaker: I very much like people breaking up any romance for Bashir because it's very funny to me. ah It is cool when they first, ah you know, start sailing the ship and the space sails come out.
Speaker: Yeah. It doesn't make any sense to me how they made all that and how he made all that single handed. In like a week, a few weeks, three weeks. Three weeks, right? Three weeks, right? Because because susan Lexington is coming later. In three weeks. Yeah.
Speaker: Using primitive tools or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. that I don't know. I'm skeptical.
Speaker: And then when he finally, then when Bashir finally like works up the nerve, to like be around his old schoolmate. She big times him and just like walks right past him without even realizing, like recognize him at all. Like, it's so funny. Like he spent his whole life.
Speaker: Yeah. Since graduating, like thinking about this woman, how he's, she's better than him. And she does not remember him like at all. She walks right past him. yeah Doesn't even look at his direction.
Speaker: Nope.
Speaker: of Brian and Bashir getting drunk. And then i Brian being like, well, you know, most people either like you or hate hate you. Like there's no in between. and I definitely, i know i no longer hate you.
Speaker: Yeah. I've also been in this drunken conversation of about like, what is she, you know, just go up to her and talk to her. it's Yeah. No, no, no, no. Like wait until tomorrow. Why? Yep.
Speaker: oh O'Brien just being like, you know what it is? She's in love with you. That's the only explanation. And she does not think about this man at all.
Speaker: Yeah. If ever. but she And then when he finally talks to her, she vaguely remembers him. Yeah.
Speaker: Any others? No, that that's it. I mean, I liked this episode. It's just, you know. I can just keep writing and writing. The only ones that I didn't, that you didn't mention, i thought the montage of Cisco building the ship it was was great.
Speaker: A ship building montage. Yeah. Ship building montage. It's nice. He had his his little, uh, you know, his little engineer suit going, you know, a nice, it's rare that we get a visual montage on Star Trek. So I appreciated that. It looked nice.
Speaker: Uh, I, I can't say enough about the relationship between these two in the episode. They're so comfortable together. So Jake turns down Cisco's offer to join him. I think that's at dinner and there's such heartbreak in there.
Speaker: And Avery Brooks, like it's a side of a Starfleet commander that we have never seen before. Right. There's something kind of unknowable about Picard has never been in the situation. Kirk's never been in the situation.
Speaker: Janeway, not really either. Archer is so... Tough to be around, you know, it's just so it's just no one wants to be stuck on a primitive ship with him. I really think what helps that Sirach Lofton is great in the scene, like he's playing the son in ah the way that makes it all work. So you can see the pain for both of them like that was hard for them.
Speaker: I don't know if it's a great scene, but need to highlight. I really liked the story. You know, Cisco got so excited when Jennifer was pregnant with Jake that he built that elaborate nursery, apparently. And, and so she's,
Speaker: je Dax is reminding him of that. And I don't know, I just it was a nice evocative storytelling. Jake was so like, why can't I just bring the the the ceiling with the stars with me and all that stuff?
Speaker: That was an neat. Not necessarily a great scene because I have it in a Trek trope coming up later. um Let's see. I think the one after they've taken off and they're just kind of getting their sea legs and the Jake's trying to figure out the bathroom.
Speaker: Yeah. Says he enjoys the silence, tells Jake he's glad he's here. Jake reveals he wrote a story, right? He gets his dad to read the story. And I like the next scene where Cisco comments on the story.
Speaker: Then he reveals the admission to Pennington and that's when the ship runs into trouble. But then they decide to keep going. So I don't just thought it was all like, it's all very quaint, right? Yeah. But just to be clear, if any, if someone's dad was like, Hey, why don't you go on this primitive spacecraft with me?
Speaker: It would be normal to say no, because that is insane. Yeah, but again, Cisco has built ships before, so there's some degree of like, and they're not going to let him just leave the station if that ship is, you know, obviously not space-worthy.
Speaker: But I understand. And also, I always think about... so I always think about the... Oh, Brian was like, I don't think this is going to space-worthy. Oh, did we mention that? forget it. That was also a great scene, I think, at the first scene back.
Speaker: And the first couple of watches, i was like, it's fine. But I i also think it's... for Trek trope reasons, I think it's really great because, you know, Kira is so patriotic, right? Or she's like, yeah, why couldn't Bajoran sail to this point with this ship?
Speaker: And O'Brien's like, I don't think you understand. um And Sisko's just kind of like, you can see his mind somewhere else. thought that was a great scene. But you're you're you're kind of right, I guess. I agree with you. But it's also like, come on.
Speaker: He's he's he built the defiance. He's fine. Yeah. um The comments are right then the the hammock time.
Speaker: I thought was the other great scene. Cisco tries to convince Jake to accept admission to Pennington rather than defer. Tells him about how he felt homesick when he left for Starfleet. He says he talks about how he materialized in his living room at 630 every night.
Speaker: Kristen, I have never forgotten this line. This scene has been burned into my brain for 30 years because it's sweet. There's something very simple and sweet. And it's also merging Star Trek with a completely now kind of, you know, we ah can all relate.
Speaker: And in this it's as simple as beaming into your living room. Of course, you're just going to go home if you miss home. So. All right. Best Trek tropes. Okay. So sometimes I put this in worst, but I put it in best this time.
Speaker: Our commanding officer is going on some weird quest instead of going to therapy.
Speaker: ah There's no reason why he needs to do a which a quest which probably is best done with like an anthropologist or something.
Speaker: Yeah, but you know what? You reminded me. This is another step that sets up the rest of the show that Cisco starts to be like, maybe i really do. Maybe I really am of Bajor. Like this is definitely a huge step in that direction.
Speaker: But all along the way, i still think you're right because there are other moments where like occasionally Vedic will dip in. You know what i mean But like there is no like historian or anthropologist or other cultural figure. Even Kira gets shoved aside from her own culture sometimes. Yeah. Right. so but Also, she's not you don't see her being first in line. But go, can I go to and she knows this is kind of bullshit. Like it sounds like it's not maybe ships. Remember when she and Dax got in that shuttle and she's like, I've flown worse. And it's like, and yeah, like literally cardboard between them and the space vacuum of space.
Speaker: What else? Yeah, that's a good one. That's a great one. Hey, I think that Cardassian is threatening me.
Speaker: Okay. Yeah. I had it as Nazi. ah Cardassians are lying Nazis. And I wasn't sure if it was best or worst because I feel like the, the, see, they're not so bad. Kind of tone of the story is like, no, these, these motherfuckers, like they were lying the whole time. Yeah.
Speaker: They had Amelia Earhart's plane. I know.
Speaker: It's not. How did it crash? Right. Right. They got some bullet holes in the hole, maybe.
Speaker: i mean, i you yeah.
Speaker: That's a good one, though. I'll go with that. Because that's all they're doing. That's the whole, even at the end, when they reveal this information and like make a political statement to smooth things over, it's they're doing the same thing.
Speaker: good Good one. Everyone hates space rations. Yeah. Yeah. Except, yeah, Chief O'Brien's not there. Otherwise, he'd be like, this is great. Yeah. and little hu And then Quark and Morn have a bet on how awkward Bashir's going to be when the other doctor shows up.
Speaker: That's great. Although I'm shocked that Quark was like, no, he's going to pull it through. a little surprised, but I have it as one of my best trick tropes. and like, Quark is a friend. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Like he, he doesn't necessarily like Starfleet, but he's like, these all seem like good people, ah whatever. And also they, ah anyway, do you have any other ones? Cause I know, no. Okay. ah So in the, so I just got to go back to something you said about one of your great scenes in the teaser.
Speaker: the pad with go away on it. So this is my best Trek trope. Painted wood props meant to look like features of metal devices and screens. Because in this case, that is the way Star Trek in the 90s would do it is it would have to be a gel that's backlit. So any screen you see is either a gel that's been backlit or if it's got video, there's a green screen or like a superimposition on there.
Speaker: But otherwise it is black paint and then some sort of colorful to be writing. So someone painted go away. Yeah.
Speaker: ah pizza web I don't know if that wound up being a prop that was in one of the auctions, but at best Trek trope, just, you know, wood that looks like metal. That's all. And screens. Producers' obsessions with hair.
Speaker: Usually this is like a worse Trek trope. They like had to reshoot a bunch of Voyager, not just because they got a new Janeway, but because they didn't like Kate Mulgrew's hair. Then ah they had to reshoot a bunch of the Enterprise pilot because they didn't like Scott Bakula's hair. They basically didn't like Avery Brooks looking like intimidating because, this black man is bald with the goatee.
Speaker: That's how Avery brook just Brooks just looked walking through his day with bald in the goatee. And they're like, no, no, no, no. no You need to look like a vice principal who's like never raised his voice.
Speaker: And so the fact that they finally were like, no one's watching the show anyway. He can grow the goatee. Maybe that'll work. so that's good. we got that. Dr. Bashir, mistaking a preganglionic fiber for a postganglionic nerve.
Speaker: It's so baked into his backstory that Jadzia can recite it back to him. Obviously, we find out that this was a pose because he's trying to keep people off the scent that he's genetically modified, or rather, this was a bit of retroactive continuity they did.
Speaker: And I think it still fits based on what we see when she's like, oh, you mistake that. And he was like, haha, yeah, I missed it You know, his performance kind of indicates like, well, maybe he was actually throwing throwing the test a little bit.
Speaker: um I also think it's very TV that the valedictorian comes down to one test result, like one question. like That is so ridiculous.
Speaker: Very ridiculous. Yeah. Usually in something like that, they'd be like, we have co-valedictorians every month. Like, how much was that one question work? 10,000 points? Ooh, I'm sorry. It was like the final, like, ah who wants to be a millionaire? There's no, you know, second place, you know?
Speaker: Kristen, I'm putting this here in best Trek tropes. This is tough, but I think it fits. Racism against aliens. O'Brien saying that Romulans claim they invented every piece of technology like they're the Greeks or something.
Speaker: so Yeah. I just like O'Brien just tossing you out there. Well, now he's like a Romulan. Yeah. And Kira's like, I've never heard this one, racist O'Brien. Tell me. What does this mean? Kira's faith in Bajoran ingenuity in this case. O'Brien says it's impossible.
Speaker: The solar sail-driven ship could have survived the trip Cisco's proposing. But Kira never doubts it for a second. ah Maybe I'm kind of just putting this here because of Nana Visitor's performance, where she's just like, you can tell she's so committed of like, of course we did.
Speaker: Of course we we were the first in the space. But for the Cardassians, Kira's like, Fuck yeah, we were. We were better than the Cardassians in every way. And then the other, like my last best trick trope is Cisco calling Jake, Jaco.
Speaker: Yeah. Oh, wait, I had, had Quark as a friend. mentioned, I should mention that. But also Cisco and Jake being slightly annoyed by the thought of Quark.
Speaker: Remember Cisco saying, he's like well like, well, I don't want you to be alone. And Cisco's like, I'll be fine. I can have dinner with Dax, Dr. Bashir, Quark. And then Jake even is like, Quark.
Speaker: I mean, he yeah he owns the restaurant. I mean, I guess technically I will have to have dinner with him at some point. Excellent point, Kristen. All right, where's strict jokes?
Speaker: Alright, so this comes up occasionally. Well, actually pretty often, but does this go steal these ancient plans from Bajor? He has like this scroll. Is it like a copy? Well, he's the emissary. Why does he have these?
Speaker: He's the emissary. Yeah, you can borrow them yeah to make a ship. And nobody from Bajor was interested in this little experiment.
Speaker: He just kept it to himself. I kind of feel like a few see a couple seasons later, they might have put someone there from like the historical society, just like as a side character to kind of push it along. But yeah it's all just because he's the emissary. Of course, he'd have the plans, but you're totally right. like Those are ancient scrolls.
Speaker: but but and he's just Yeah, it's not even copies. It's just like bare hands around a bunch of equipment and like soldering tools. There's no like Bajoran's observing his work.
Speaker: You know what I Like as he's putting it together and like, oh, this Just like artifacts in Star Trek don't make, like they're not treated with any kind of reverence whatsoever. In fact, there was a whole show where a whole season took place on what was essentially Borg concentration camp.
Speaker: Yeah. A Borg tomb. Um, okay. This, the homemade spaceship does remind me a lot of the homemade submarine when those billionaires imploded on it.
Speaker: Yep. When they're trying to dive down to the Titanic. Um, I'm glad it went better. i mean, sister does know how to build a ship. I got, I mean, like, it's not the same thing.
Speaker: He didn't have a Wii controller in there. that's right. did But it did break his his controller. didn' So but also, yeah. And then when the it starts to break, I'm like, well, obviously it starts to break. You have a bunch of sales out in space with like nobody around. And like, yeah.
Speaker: um And like Cisco didn't even bring like a tricorder or anything. He only brought like the little. Oh, my goodness. I can't believe you didn't bring a tricorder. Just like i would do ring just one little tablet.
Speaker: nothing else
Speaker: Jake's not even saying. You didn't bring a tricorder? Like, the fact that that was... No other navigational backup equipment. That was very stupid. Also, they could have just, like, put a replicator on there or whatever.
Speaker: But... yeah that was do I mean, or, like, brought some food or something, whatever. But...
Speaker: but But he does make the modification for zero gravity. Right. for the It saves the budget. i mean Well, yes, obviously. But like, well, I did that one thing and then, oh are we going to run out air? Like you didn't put the air exchanger thing on there either? Like, okay.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. i' i'm not If going to make it in two weeks, we're dead. yeah Hopefully our one method of communication is enough. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. He didn't put like a like a low jack on it or anything. Nothing. Nope. Didn't bring his comm badge with him as far as we can tell. Yeah. Like at the very least, there should have been another ship like a runabout following them. Yeah. its like If you swim the English Channel, there's a boat behind you making sure you don't drown.
Speaker: You don't just go out there alone.
Speaker: Any others? ah no that's it. So I put Jadzia talking about her past lives. You know what? I was going to, as we were talking about um the scene of Jake or of Cisco talking about Jake wanting to take the stars. I was i was like, oh I remember that part that I didn't like that. She's like, I've been a father too.
Speaker: That's an exact moment. I hate that they like just to, move something along like, well, remember, I used to be a blah, blah. blah And that it happens more often than it should. And it's always like something weird that like never was mentioned before. Or if it was, it was like barely in passing. Like I've been a father before.
Speaker: This has been brought to my attention as I've gotten older. When someone is talking to me about their problems, responding with a similar problem or your own story is tricky because it's very easily not helpful.
Speaker: I mean, if you've been in that exact same situation, then sure. Like, hey, you know what? It actually, you know, this you turned out okay. the Even still, the advice is all is usually like, if someone asks you for advice, you offer. You know i mean? Otherwise, you're just there to listen. It's like, oh yeah, i was a father when? 10,000 years ago whatever? Yeah. That's not relevant to the conversation. I've been a father a few times. You'll be okay. im like, well, you were a father to my kid. as recently 500 years ago. Yeah. You weren't a father to my kid in this timeline, like in this timeframe. Okay? Like, that just...
Speaker: yeah i guess the corollary to this i is like people talking about their kids and then you responding with the story about your pet which i'm so guilty of so i don't know but i maybe i'm being i just yeah it stands out in this episode of like no bad advice jedzia it wasn't even like really advice it was just sort of right yeah you i'm the i'm obviously the authority on this subject having been a father a few times myself um Okay.
Speaker: So you kind of already touched on my other one, which is that there's no way that the ship could survive a warp trip. Yeah. ah Basically, like to me, where's the deflector dish? You know, the little space dust gets right through that thing and it wraps it right apart once they go to warp speed.
Speaker: So I'm not sure about that. Maybe the sails. I don't know. the I appreciate that the difference between Deep Space Nine and TNG and Voyager is Deep Space Nine is much less about the Technobabble.
Speaker: Fine. But it's also like, but I'm still asking questions. And even if you're like, who cares about the deflector dish? I'll also say Fine. But the problem is i can't shake it because I have two issues.
Speaker: How the fuck do the Bajorans get those into space in the first place?
Speaker: Hmm. So they had rockets. They could launch rockets. Yeah. So like satellites, like you need windows to launch. You're not. Yeah. So in order to like,
Speaker: launch something like that you'd have to do several launches of things into space and then like kind of put them together in space yeah because you couldn't launch something from the surface with sales well you could bundle the sales and maybe one launch but yeah it's still multiple launches you're completely right you're talking about multiple launches like even today that's i mean there's getting to the moon with one launch apparently it was like unbelievable yeah
Speaker: Okay, so that's, I guess that's like techno, bad techno babble or like it's, I'm aware that we're just going with here. All right, most cosplayable character or moment? um For me, it's the space bimbo complimentary.
Speaker: Pretending to have a cough. Okay. And her little outfit and everything. We have multiples then because mine is Cisco and his engineers jumpsuit. It's kind of adorable. it has meled to do Yeah. And then my other one was that someone might be able to pull off like four or five people might be able to pull off.
Speaker: Somebody is the ship and they can fling out their arms and be solar sails. And then other people can be the fireworks around them. Cause when they get there, So those are my two. All right.
Speaker: Now it's time for the line, Mr. Jordan. Great lines.
Speaker: um Sisko, weightlessness makes me queasy.
Speaker: And then i am'm glad I was wrong for a moment out there. I thought that you had been put in charge of the Cardassian ministry for the refutation of Bajoran fairy tales.
Speaker: Yeah. Can I just ah express how annoyed I am by how good Mark Alimo is on a fucking monitor? Yeah. like This is like one of the best Dukat episodes for some reason. And it makes me really upset.
Speaker: like ah Like one of those guys who probably just like stole the show and everything like in like drama school. Then they put him in this snake costume and.
Speaker: That motherfucker. ah Or what else do you have? You're not an in-between kind of guy. yeah
Speaker: um i think there were several good lines, but that was I had to tap out at that point. but Either she loves you or she hates you or something like that. Maybe I'll play the clip. How about that? She really ignored you because she can't stand you.
Speaker: Isn't there some explanation in between?
Speaker: well
Speaker: You're not an in-between kind of guy. What do you mean? Well, people either love you or hate you. Really? um me I I hated you when we first met.
Speaker: I remember. Well, now.
Speaker: And now?
Speaker: Well... No, I don't.
Speaker: That means lot to me, Chief. It really does. Really? Well, that is from the heart. what I really do
Speaker: not hate you anymore.
Speaker: Hey. ah My other two are...
Speaker: We'll make a sailor out of you yet. Cisco to Jake. And then before the ah before the people who love you or hate you. No, this isn't a synth ale kind of night.
Speaker: Yeah. No friends like maybe we should switch from the hearts, the real stuff to the big stuff. Would this be a fun holo novel to play out? I'm sure I wouldn't mind to mind pulling the old i don't think about you at all on Bashir, but I don't know if I i don't if i really want to go. don't know, maybe doing a fake space thing. i don't know.
Speaker: Do you... so
Speaker: I'm um it's, ah it's such a wish fulfillment fantasy thing. Right. And I'm going to leave the gendering out of it, but it's just the idea of like, you've built someone up in your head and they don't think about you at all. And then when you talk to them there, they reveal that they wish they had your life is such wish fulfillment that that's what makes writers,
Speaker: terrific and terrible at the same time. That is what you do when you write is you win the argument you've lost or you have things go the way you can, you can shroud your picadillos and your anxieties and your ticks if you do it well.
Speaker: And i think the complimentary, start to the episode of like, you know, women do like Dr. Bashir, you know, like he is desirable person to get to that point. I think it's fine.
Speaker: And I actually kind of like she kind of does like a Star Trek Lower Decks thing, right? She's like, here's where some adventure is. I'm just maybe finding moss sometimes. It's very boring at the time. It's nice, nice change of pace.
Speaker: And that's sometimes what happens for these high achievers, they wind up getting very formal kind of stayed work that's consistent and it's prestigious, but it doesn't have kind of maybe the pizazz they were looking Yeah.
Speaker: ah the Anton Coridian Award for Best Performance. So, okay, for me, I really i really liked to Avery Brooks, but i also think the kid who plays Jake is really good in this too. Wow, weird. I put them both. I put Avery Brooks and Ciroc Lofton.
Speaker: This episode, it's if it had done been done today, you can tell me if you think I'm wrong. I think this episode would not have been done as well today because they would have had Jake going on the cruise or on the ship to convince Sisko to let him go to Pennington.
Speaker: Yeah, they would. Yeah. They wouldn't have done it. You can't go. can't. And I think it completely would have altered the performance. It would have made instead. This is all very sweet.
Speaker: Yeah. And so I think that works. the chat And I also think that um for a child actor of this era, he's not annoying and not like, I think some child actors now of the same age are like a little too adult.
Speaker: Yeah, and they do a really smart thing, i think, where this is another thing that they do today. They try to spotlight him more, but they don't really try to make us care about Jake too much because I think they know, like well, people care about Commander Sisko and the crew.
Speaker: and so how the crew feels about Jake is actually what's important. Like how he makes them feel is what matters. Right. Cause we do get some Jake episodes and sometimes they're good and, and they're, they're fine, but I don't think that any of them are bad actually. Now I'm thinking about, but they don't do it often is what I mean.
Speaker: And like, and so I think there's a way that they handled the child actor, a child character amongst a crew of adults. That's rare. don't know. We just don't see very often.
Speaker: ah Then the Shatner.
Speaker: i'm ah I'm actually torn on this one. What do you have? I have Kalminian Sidig El-Fadil O'Brien and Bashir. All right, I'm fine with that. They're they're fucking going for it and they nail it.
Speaker: they're They're great. They're amazing. which they They eat every... you know There's no meat left on that bone. They got it all. All right, shoot you through a most exciting image or sequence?
Speaker: um Yeah, the the sailing spaceship. When it deploys the sails? Yeah, when it has all the sails out and stuff. I put the montage where he's building the ship, but it kind of leads into that, so it all works.
Speaker: ah What part of this will he teach at Starfleet Academy? um Well, like probably the part about solar sails working. Right. Solar sails that it's possible to go from Bajor to Cardassian space on a but on a solar sail powered ship.
Speaker: um Yeah, that's and also ah Cardassians are pretty grim group of people. but Yeah, they the Cardassians really hate Bajorans.
Speaker: And like and there's nowhere else to put this, but like this episode ends pretty abruptly. In my opinion, it's like the Cardassians are like, congratulations, you did it. And by the way, we knew you could do it because we found a crash site just now.
Speaker: Well, metaphorically, they it's a it's an ancient story of father and son growing up in front of each other. And so like the thousands-year-old Bajoran story, they hit a couple of rough patches, but they hang in there and work together and they get through it. And it's a celebration at the end.
Speaker: So thematically, it tracks. What more do you need to say? They got through a tough time together. And now who knows? Now it's an exciting future. Oh, and by the way, can we get like a ride back from guys?
Speaker: Our ship's not doing so hot. It's a one way trip. See, this is what I don't like is that Kira gets forgotten in the Bajoran stuff. Like she should have been right up front being like, don't you want someone to pick you up once you get to Kronasian space? Yes.
Speaker: Like you don't want to, for that exact reason. i think that's great. Good point. ah Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better? um I mean, it was kind of horny in the beginning, but I'm glad that it wasn't Bashir lusting after this other classmate of his.
Speaker: Yes, and that's the way it could have been hornier, and I'm glad didn't do that. Yeah, because I think it was better. All right, so check, marry, or kill explorers. and This one's a Trek for me. i mean, I liked it. I don't know if it's like the best episode ever, but I mean, I'm willing to marry it if you're going to though.
Speaker: Well, while you've been away, we we've had some discussions. I've had some guests on some thoughts and like the Overton window has shifted on Star Trek.
Speaker: Like section the section 31 movie is a Trek. And so if that's a Trek, yes. i had the unfortunate experience.
Speaker: My husband was watching it and I was on we have a stationary bike and I was on the stationary bike like reading. And while I was working out and so like half paying attention to this movie, this is a bad film.
Speaker: it just Any way you slice it, this is a bad film. I don't care. Oh, it's a TV movie. I don't care. It is bad. It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker: I mean, I could just leave it there, but. So that's why feel like the over to window has shifted. And I'm when I think about this episode, though, and I think about for me, Mary is still like, is it also a great episode of television? I think it is a great episode of television is a great episode of Star Trek.
Speaker: Well, maybe not so much, but I have to say this is like a well-oiled machine. like Before they the studio's like, listen, these ratings are shit. You have to do something. And they're like, what if we brought in Worf?
Speaker: They had hit a groove for the version of the show that they wanted to do before they had to put bring Worf in. And I think this reflects that very well. This is not what... You know, this is does it stand with the rest of the great episodes that follow? I'm not sure.
Speaker: You know, it this is as good as past tense, which we we married part one. You know, i don't know, but I just there's something very likable. So I'll give it a very strong track. you know and I was going to give it a soft marry, but you know I think the Bashir storyline is nice, but you know it's it really is just like a filler B-plot.
Speaker: like It's okay. right It doesn't leave us a point. As filler B-plots go, at like this one was entertaining. And it's had no consequence, really, so it's not life-changing in any real sense.
Speaker: There's nothing bad about this episode. this is But it showed like some character development. and It showed your you know your principles actually like bonding, which lot of shows don't show anymore. Yeah.
Speaker: Well acted, you know, whatever. Yeah. Good set. Right. so oh the I think if nothing else, if people are weird about father son relationships or never really ah like the Cisco's for some reason, I don't know.
Speaker: There's still the Bashir and O'Brien scene, which is yeah amazing on its own. So, all right. A strong Mary for this. So wait, good how did how did Section 31 get a track? Well, we put it to vote and it won by two votes.
Speaker: I'm over, I'm overwriting it. I'm using my cohost Vito. The staff meetings. The staff meetings. I'm quoting Star Trek 3. Oh.
Speaker: ah Yeah, that's that. Yes, I'm using a veto and it's not. a trick Yeah, we prompted this. That's what prompted our our recent guest, Jordan Hoffman, film critic.
Speaker: He's like, you know, ah why not marry a lot of choice from the original series? Because for if we're saying that Section 31 is good at all, then, you know, then it changed. It skews everything.
Speaker: and kind of did you wait Did you stack it up against other Star Trek films or was it shows? that you well No, because it's a TV show. It's a TV movie, so it it falls into the TV zone. We don't do movies this one. Even though it's a...
Speaker: It is a feature length. It's effectively a pilot, though. It's effective. It's like the same as Encounter at Farpoint or Emissary. Like it's it's just a TV pilot.
Speaker: They crammed a season into that pilot, but that's what it is. It's a season of plot into 90 minutes. But that's all really is. um So is it a show people would want to watch?
Speaker: I don't know. Could it have gotten better? I'm not sure. We'll never know.
Speaker: And I just want everyone to know that i I went into that having no preconceived notion about it at all. Because I have no, nothing. and I mean, I only seen two episodes of Discovery. So I'm not like, I already hate this.
Speaker: I have yet I gave it a fair shake. As fair shake anyone could give while reading something else. And I'm just going to say it was not good. I think it's just people love Michelle Yeoh and people love Star Trek. I love her too. And people want them to keep making Star Trek. So they think if they don't want them to waste all the money on this.
Speaker: don't. They're like, it doesn't matter. It looked expensive. It sure did, Kristen. I mean, i don't know where the script was, but... Next week, two episodes of Trek, Married, Kill, our monthly animated spotlight where Katie Hampton and I wrap up Lower Decks' third season, and then Kristen and I will wrap up Deep Space Nine's third season with The Adversary.
Speaker: And this will wrap up our season of Trek, Mary kill. So stay tuned for that. Check, Mary, K pod on social media, check, Mary kill pod.com on the web, you can see all of our standings.
Speaker: I put section 31 in the discovery bucket because that is, it's effectively a spinoff of star Trek discovery. So it goes in with those episodes. So just so you know, well, I don't, is it like the best discovery episode then?
Speaker: No, it's definitely not. Definitely not. Uh, It's not even the best episode about Section 31. Like, are we sure this wasn't like a bot thing? People had bots voting?
Speaker: No, we had people reaching out and like they maybe they were gaming it, but at least Spotify and the Blue Sky voting app that I was using, I'm not quite sure. I mean, I guess you could gimmick it. It's not supposed to work that way. It's supposed to record your vote in one place and that's it.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Well, voting doesn't matter anymore, and I'm declaring it a kill.
Speaker: I'm using my authority handed to me by nobody. i mean, that's why I'm saying along those lines, like, why wouldn't Explorers be at Mary? But, you know, we're holding to some salience.
Speaker: Is this like an episode? I'm like, you have to watch Explorers. but It's definitely one of Deep Space Nine's better episodes, but definitely not, like, in the pantheon. It's an amazing episode. Commander Sisko, Jake Sisko episode, though, for sure.
Speaker: All right, Kristen, one more time, and then we're done. So until then, TMK out. Bye.
