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DS9: "Defiant" (s3e9) with actor-producer Curtis Fortier ("12 Sided Die")
35 Plays58 minutes ago
DOUBTING THOMAS RIKER. Kira and the crew of DS9 fall under the charms of a Riker, just not the one they think! Transporter Twin Thomas Riker has his eyes set on the USS Defiant and uses sexcraft to get what he wants. In order to stop him, Sisko must reenact Fail Safe -- or is it the TNG episode "The Wounded"? -- with Gul Dukat on Cardassia.
Our theme this month is DS9's Season Three Leap Forward, looking at key episodes that showed Star Trek's middle child taking off and finding its own voice. Joining Bryan to kick things off is actor-producer-comedian Curtis Fortier, star and producer of web series 12 Sided Die, featuring Trek alumni such as Tim Russ and Andrew Robinson.
The grades begin at (21:30).
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Trek, Marry, Kill' and Hosts
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek, Merry, Kill. Cardassians, Kira, Tom. Energize. You once knew him as Commander Riker. Hope got room for the unexpected. But after stealing Starfleet's most powerful warship. The defiant shields are up.
00:00:14
Speaker
What? Has he become the galaxy's deadliest enemy? The ship was built to fight. And will his shocking secret......it's headed directly into the heart of Cardassian territory......result in a full-scale invasion?
00:00:28
Speaker
Fire! Next time on Star Trek Deep Space Nine.
00:00:38
Speaker
Marry, kill.
Guest Co-Host Curtis Fortier Joins
00:00:45
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. I'm Curtis. Welcome to Trek, Marry, Kill, a podcast where we have as much fun judging episodes of Star Trek as Will Riker has at a Dabo table. This week's guest co-host is stand-up comic who tours all over the world.
00:00:58
Speaker
He's also an actor who's appeared in For All Mankind and on Jimmy Kimmel Live and is the executive producer and star of the web series 12 Sided Die, which recently launched its second season. But more importantly, he was immortalized in the documentary Trekkies 2, which We played Captain Kirk in the Romeo and Juliet style take on Let That Be Your Last Battlefield.
00:01:17
Speaker
He's Curtis Fortier. Curtis, welcome. Good to be here. Thank you very much. Yeah, that Trekkies 2 thing was was was crazy. They had wrapped filming and then they heard we were doing Romeo and Juliet. in In the style of Let That Be Your Last Battlefield. So the print I played Captain Kirk, which was the Prince of Verona character.
00:01:34
Speaker
So I opened the thing and I and i closed it. And then after I did my final Captain's Log, I started singing Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds in total Shatner form. It was great. but But thanks for mentioning 12 Sighted Die. i if If I can just say, it was it has a it's related to Star Trek because ah Tim Russ, Tuvok, directed it.
00:01:54
Speaker
um And for him playing a Vulcan, he loves to laugh and he's an amazing musician and he's he's a great guy. And we had Kitty Swink in it. She had two roles on Deep Space Nine. She played a Bajoran um ah senator and then she played a ah vorta And then Andy Robinson is in it, Garrick, who is masterful, absolutely masterful. And I made sure I wrote myself three pages with just me and him. And he and we had him for three days on set. He was professional.
00:02:26
Speaker
And I wrote Shakespeare for him to do. So he did the St. Crispin's Day speech in front of us in the piece. And it was, it was just great. So I'm, I'm very excited to be doing a podcast about Deep Space Nine, given the fact that I have that, I have that connection to it. And, and I'll plug stuff at the end. But, but yeah, we have a, we have a Kickstarter and it'll be in festivals this coming year, 2020, 2025 and 26. So.
00:02:51
Speaker
twenty five and twenty six That's great. Yeah, definitely. ah We'll look for that at the end and then I'll try to put it in the show notes as well. But ah you said two things that I needed to comment on when we did our Let That Be Your Last Battlefield episode.
00:03:04
Speaker
Kristen and I have remarked upon that being probably the most famous episode of Star Trek. It's the one that... What's Star Trek about? Well, it's about social issues.
00:03:15
Speaker
And like literally the half white, half black face is like one of the, it's hard to say iconic, but it's just like when you think of Star Trek stories for non Star Trek fans, I kind of feel like for a long time, maybe that's not the case now.
00:03:28
Speaker
That was right near the top. So that was, it's an interesting thing. Like you were pulling when you did that, ah pulling off of that, I think, I think that was top of line. The other one being a Tim Russ anecdote I need to bring up because I need to close the loop.
00:03:41
Speaker
My co-host Kristen and I were, were racking our brains trying to figure out who in future's end, the two-port Voyager episode, where they traveled back to the nineties, who had Sarah Silverman made out with, because she had mentioned it in an interview.
00:03:54
Speaker
that she had made out with one of the cast members. And and i we felt like, well, if she had made out with Robert Duncan McNeil, the love interest in the series, she would have remembered that. So it had to be somebody else. And we racked our brains.
00:04:07
Speaker
And I think my money was on Robert Beltran because she in had mentioned that she would hang around on set after her scenes were done. So theoretically, she could have just been there.
00:04:18
Speaker
But it turns out it was Tim Russ. Wow. so I'll ask him about that the next time I talk to him. ah This was Kristen hearing Sarah Silverman mentioned it on a different interview. And I just like, wow, I'm glad we closed the loop.
00:04:33
Speaker
So anyone. Wow. All right. yeah That's that's that's crazy because, I mean, he's he's i don't want to talk about his personal life, but yeah, i've I've met. I mean, i mean i all worryless was and i don't know where he was his personal life in or whatever.
00:04:49
Speaker
But he has a daughter. His daughter, Madison, is is in 12 Sighted Die. she She has a part. so so And trust me, that was a blast with him and his daughter on on on on set. It was great.
00:05:01
Speaker
That's fantastic. so yeah timra Tim Russ, ah good Vulcan portrayal there, Tuvok. So definitely check out. But Curtis, before ah we get into this episode, which I haven't really mentioned, but how did you get into Star Trek?
Deep Space Nine's Turning Point in Season 3
00:05:14
Speaker
Oh, you know, I, I, I gotta to be honest. I don't remember a time when I didn't know of or like Star Trek. So like epigenetic memory. Yes. I was kind of – yeah, because i mean i used to – because I mean I grew up on the on the original series reruns, which when I grew up in Michigan, we had three channels, 3, 8, and 13, and channel 10 came through very fuzzy.
00:05:39
Speaker
And that's when Star Trek would come on, and I would always watch – I mean because what – I remember being excited about the the the motion picture. that was 79. Yeah. So I must have – like five or six or even maybe you know that's when I was watching it through the squiggly lines on – this was before cable.
00:05:56
Speaker
I remember loving the loving the uniforms and just – and it was it was written for adults. And and as a four- or five-year-old, six-year-old kid, i I loved every minute of it. So I don't remember ever thinking going – Oh, this is cool. I just remember like always wanting to watch it whenever it was on because you didn't know what it was on. I mean, it was, you know, it was a wild west. It was pre pre internet.
00:06:17
Speaker
Something came on. You just stopped everything that you wanted to watch and you watch it. So it was very hard to kind of basically program your life to your liking. You just kind of had to take what was ever available, whatever was on.
00:06:28
Speaker
All right. So that kind of a little bit ties into their our theme this month, which it's a poorly worded theme and and you are a funny person. So maybe you can punch this better.
00:06:40
Speaker
But basically it's Deep Space Nine's season three leap forward. It is the season where Deep Space Nine goes from being, hey, Star Trek's on to, hey, Deep Space Nine is on.
00:06:52
Speaker
and And what you were saying was kind of to me was like, I'm watching Deep Space Nine because it's Star Trek. And it was around this time that I started to really attach to it as its own thing.
00:07:04
Speaker
This pre-Voyager that wasn't in the air. Next Generation, you know, that that its time had come and gone and it you know existed in your heart, but not in your front of mind. And ah and I am not um making this up. It's not like I thought this. This was like they introduced the Defiant in season three. yeah They they they took a lot of chances. Season two, about halfway through season two is when Michael Piller stopped being the day to day showrunner and the show was handed off to Ira Bear.
00:07:33
Speaker
So season three is really when it's like he's putting a stamp on it every day. The show takes a lot more risks. It it changes and not necessarily the style of storytelling quite yet, but you could start to see it go in that direction, especially with the serialization. But I don't know if this, i kind of think the season premiere, The Search kind of does do that.
00:07:54
Speaker
Hey, we're doing something different this year. But one of the other episodes after the search is this one, Defiant. It's the ninth episode of Deep Space Nine's third season, which premiered in syndication November 21st, 1994, written by
Review of 'Defiant' Episode
00:08:07
Speaker
Ronald D. Moore, directed by Cliff Bull.
00:08:09
Speaker
ah Memory Alpha describes it. When Commander William T. Riker from the Enterprise D arrives on Deep Space Nine, he takes a liking to Major Kira, who gives him a tour of the Defiant. But Riker is revealed to be not who he claims to be when he attacks Kira and steals the Defiant.
00:08:23
Speaker
I think Memory Alpha could have just spilled the beans. He's Thomas Riker, the transporter clone introduced in Second Chances. He has joined the Maquis. He is also looking to distinguish himself from Will Riker by basically becoming a heroic terrorist figure and defeating the evil Cardassians, who his intelligence, he's determined, are up to something in the Onias system and steals the Defiant to kind of figure out what's going on there.
00:08:54
Speaker
Now, again, to talk about the serialization, we find out that the Obsidian Order is doing something there. They're building a massive fleet that they're going to send into the wormhole later on in season three to attack and destroy the Dominion. But before we get it, we're talking about this episode in Defiant.
00:09:10
Speaker
the beat is that So we got the romance kind of with Riker and Kira. And then the B story is Sisko going with Gold Dukat to Cardassia to basically monitor the situation and and give the Cardassians enough intel to disable, destroy, stop the Defiant from its mission.
00:09:27
Speaker
It's kind of ripping off the wounded. A little bit from The Next Generation. yeah Which is a fantastic episode and has a very similar thing of Data is literally narrating a couple of dots on the screen.
00:09:42
Speaker
And it's this harrowing, tense situation. And they're kind of trying to copy it here. um And I don't know how I feel about that part of the storyline, but that's what's going on in this episode. Do you remember the first time you saw it, though, Curtis?
00:09:54
Speaker
um i don't I don't remember the the the exact first time, but I kind of looked back and figured out when it was when it aired. And it aired right after I graduated college, right after I finished grad school.
00:10:05
Speaker
And as I was working a job that... um ah It was a good job, but I wasn't a good fit for it. So I just remember liking the fact that I loved the fact that there was still new Star Trek on. and um so But i but i do I do remember being really excited when...
00:10:22
Speaker
when he ripped off the sideburns. Oh my goodness. And I'm like, we're in, I go, oh, that's what they, I go, we're in for a ride. We're in for a ride. i remember being so excited about when I saw that to like, okay, good. This has a, this has a connection to, to, to next gen. And this is going to be great. So definitely for me, season three was new ship. And then you read about the defiant all summer long of like, it's a warship. They're going to fight a lot. Oh, it was designed to beat the board.
00:10:46
Speaker
This is going to be so cool. And I'm 13 years old. And then, you know, season three is fine. But then you get the preview and was like, Riker's going to be on the next episode. And then it happens and you kind of forget, oh, right, there was that whole transporter accident thing. yeah So that was very exciting in that regard. So I do remember it very clearly, being very excited about this one and having a lot of fun while watching it.
00:11:11
Speaker
and ah But it's kind of one of those episodes where you have a lot of fun while you're watching it. And it's kind of like relics. Does it really stick in your mind as time has passed? We're we're now what, like 30, almost 31 years after it.
00:11:23
Speaker
And you kind of remember it. It kind of sticks in your mind. But other for I think beyond what you said, that's basically it. It's kind of. Yeah, i because I remember he made a noise and he went. Yeah.
00:11:34
Speaker
right. Let's go. I'm like, oh, this is oh, yes, this is gonna be great. It's gonna be great. But I want to build my case a little more for the skeptical listener out there about season three being the leap forward for Deep Space Nine.
00:11:45
Speaker
I can already set up all the terms for it, but you have not only the Defiant being introduced, but we get time travel, a very clear cut, clean. This is just time travel of past tense, which is a famous episode of Deep Space Nine. Very famous. um and We've already done that one. We have also a Brandon Braga-esque mindfuck of a time travel episode in Visionary.
00:12:06
Speaker
That's where Chief O'Brien keeps jumping six so six hours ahead. We get probably the best of the Deep Space Nine Mirror Universe crossover episodes in Through the Looking Glass. um and some others that we'll be discussing this month.
00:12:19
Speaker
um It doesn't mean that it took 45 episodes for Deep Space Nine to find its footing. That's kind of the thing that people said at some point, I think before the new shows premiered, where it's like, oh yeah, all the Star Trek shows take about two years, two seasons to get their footing.
00:12:34
Speaker
And I think there's been a lot of kind of revisionist history or people going back and really being like, was season one of TNG as bad as people remember it? It's pretty bad, but there are good episodes within it. What it wound up becoming, some of those seeds were there.
00:12:46
Speaker
and think season two for TNG g is kind of unheralded as like, no, no, that saved the show. And that's, you know, the rest of the series owes a lot to season two. but the seeds of season two are in season one with deep space nine and are going back through so early episodes because I was of the same belief right off season one and almost season two, but season one has the pilot, which is amazing. It's one of the best pilots of TV in the last directed by David Carson.
00:13:14
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And generations. Yes, that's right. And, ah and yesterday's enterprise. Yes. Which is probably why Trisha O'Neill may have been in, and this one.
00:13:26
Speaker
That's a great point. We'll direct to this one. Yeah. That's right. directed this one yeah um I think that she's just good in the election. So good. And also with Cardassians, especially the women or just all the Cardassians, they really cast for the eyes.
00:13:41
Speaker
So and she does have very distinct eyes. So so I just want to bring that up because. I think it's easy. Maybe younger fans, newer fans getting into Star Trek.
00:13:51
Speaker
they There's a lot of people are just like committed to binging and they watch an order, which I don't think is the best way to do it, ah to do it for Star Trek, especially like the original series. Like there's six or seven in the first season of the original series. You really can just not watch and unless you're really into Star Trek and want to be a completionist. But,
00:14:08
Speaker
There's good stuff in season two, but season three is really where they were like, fuck it, let's do our own thing. And I think it just shows. and if i can If I can give my perspective about next gen, but but but about the season one, season two thing, because when I watched next gen season one, and season two, it was, I watched it live. I mean, it was, it was on it. And I remember my primitive email and they were going through all the characters and I would see that.
00:14:30
Speaker
But, and I watched it with with a bunch of buddies of mine and we were so starved. for any Star Trek because it was the eighties. It was, you know, there was no, with very few VHSs and but that was crazy. So everything that came out, we relished. And so it was, it it was, it was good from, from that aspect. And it was, it was also very heady. I mean, all the original series stuff, the really good ones were heady.
00:14:53
Speaker
So that's where they kind of started with the next gen. They kind of brought back a lot of the same, you know, Dorothy Fontana and all those people, Mike, Dave Gerald, and they were all very heady episodes. And, And I think, well, they're like, let me fire the phasers once or twice.
00:15:08
Speaker
I think they also just, it's kind of like you can't recreate, you know, when they bring back the X-Files, they bring back a lot of shows. Sometimes it's the same production team most of the time. And then you can't recapture that alchemy.
00:15:20
Speaker
Right. You know, it's a new thing. and And Next Generation, I think for a while, wasn't, I think it was this the same people recognizing that they couldn't do that, but being, so stuck in how to do Star Trek the way they did it, that it prevented them from evolving at all. And season two is that push into evolving the new idea they tried to make.
00:15:43
Speaker
And so that and then Michael Piller took it further from that. And then Star Trek kind of stayed how Michael Piller cemented it for far too long, in my opinion. But you that's what it is. And then Ira Bear kind of took the baton here and picked up from there.
00:15:57
Speaker
So let's get in some notes before we get into the grades. Trisha O'Neill, you mentioned, yes is Rachel Garrett herself, captain of the Enterprise C. ah This is not the only other Star Trek role she had. She also is in another DS9 episode, ah Suspicions.
00:16:11
Speaker
um Also, but another bit of casting. Shannon Cochran reprises her role as Kalita from TNG's preemptive strike. She would also reappear on Deep State. She was basically the co-pilot with Ro Lairn.
00:16:25
Speaker
in the Maquis. When they penetrated the shield and Picard let them have it. Parked the shuttle right between the nacelles. ah Very skeptical of Ro until that moment. She would also then be in the season six episode You Are Cordially Invited. She's Martok's wife, Sorella.
00:16:42
Speaker
Oh, that's right. a promotion, I would say. That's right. because she was In fact, I remember she was, ah her character was like, she was very overbearing, and which was weird for Martok to have somebody overbearing in his life. Well, the ladies of the house run the house. That was how they figured out why are Klingon women, Klingon women are probably warriors too. What can we give them that says...
00:17:04
Speaker
distinguished and then run more kind of like backfield of like, well, sure, they can be warriors, but what's their more? Oh, they run the houses. The houses are so important. Well, the lady of the house is like the most important thing.
00:17:15
Speaker
So ah just to also mention, she guest starred with Michael Canavan, who I believe is the other Maquis guy. going to take two seconds. I'm sorry I didn't do that note.
00:17:27
Speaker
Oh, didn't she? And and they got married. Oh, yeah, that's right. I remember reading that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. ah Ron Moore commented about this one. We had talked early in the year about doing an episode with Tom Riker. Early on, we had played with the idea of Tom being the leader of the Maquis, that we would suddenly notice that the Maquis were getting a lot better at out there and kicking some serious butt.
00:17:46
Speaker
Why? It's because they had a Riker guiding them. He's their general. Cisco's role in this episode is based on the 1964 Sidney Lumet Cold War thriller Failsafe, where the president, played by heron Henry Fonda, is forced to help the Russians shoot down an American plane on its way to launch a nuclear strike on Moscow.
00:18:04
Speaker
Did I say nuclear? I said nuclear. Nuclear. Nuclear. Nuclear. Goodness. Oh, boy. All right. The Defiant Bridge set underwent some alterations for the episode that were requested by director of photography. the I don't know why I can't talk today. That's right. real
Production Insights on 'Defiant'
00:18:19
Speaker
Photography, Jonathan West. David Livingston commented, Jonathan West had already shot a show on the Defiant and he asked for some changes in terms of paint scheme and lighting and now is pretty together. So this is the this is the director of photography saying, hey, when we light this corner, i can't get any light here. So...
00:18:35
Speaker
it doesn't actually work. I actually just want to point that out because Red Letter Media, which they have a Star Trek fan on their YouTube channel, and every so often they will do some sort of Star Trek video.
00:18:46
Speaker
And this year they they bought ah um bought on auction a Maybe the original panel for the Defiant Khan station.
00:18:56
Speaker
Oh, wow. It may or may not have been destroyed during a stunt in the episode ah one small ship. And they re they refurbished it and then mounted it. So there's like a whole video of the restoration process. Oh, that's cool.
00:19:09
Speaker
A fun fact, if if if I can jump in, about about failsafe. Please. I watched the first hour of it. um And it is very similar to this one because they're doing a lot of na because there's a whole big screen, which is very low tech because it's 1964 of the lights going Russian and they're narrating everything that's going on. The fighters firing and the fighter fighters after burning.
00:19:33
Speaker
um So it's very reminiscent of that when Goldicott and Sisko are watching the screen and they're talking about the Krator. Yes. you know Yeah. So it's very reminiscent there. That's fair. But I thought of the wounded because that's literally Mark Alimo and the Cardassians and they're doing a rogue Federation starship in Cardassian space. It's like the same set Although frank ah Frank Overton, who played Elias Sandoval in i believe it's This Side of Paradise, This Side of Paradise from the original series is in Failsafe.
00:20:05
Speaker
Oh, okay. Larry Hagman's in it. Boss Hogg is in it. it's just It's a crazy movie. but and And the old man from Robocop is in it. So okay it's all these all these famous people that we know in completely different roles are all these serious generals in this film.
00:20:21
Speaker
and I've never seen it. I've seen Dr. Strangelove, which obviously and takes some – They'll save as very slow. Walter Matthaus in it. I don't mean to get off on a whole other tangent, but yeah, it's it's a very slow burn. It's a 1964 movie.
00:20:33
Speaker
then My last two notes are just production notes. I like to mention the first day of filming of Defiant fell together with the last day of the episode Meridian, which Jonathan Frakes was directing. And the final day with the first day of production of the episode Fascination. I don't know what would have compelled there to be three episodes shooting at once. That's not usual.
00:20:53
Speaker
Now, there will be overlap that happens pretty regularly. According to the production report, this episode was filmed 1.6 hours under budget. That's the Jonathan Frakes guarantee, baby.
00:21:07
Speaker
in and out. ah Done. We are wrapping early today. not it's in front of the camera behind the camera. He's like, what do you need? You mean a bellow at this frequency? Got it. I got it.
Favorite Scenes from 'Defiant'
00:21:20
Speaker
All right. Are you ready get in the grades or is there anything? anyone All right. No, no, that's it. Let's all jump. do it All right. Let's get in the grades. We'll start with great scenes. You go ahead. I, liked the scene at the beginning. It's all exposition, but first off, and an exposition scene that can be delivered expertly, I think is, i think is great. The exposition scene where Cisco and Odo have to bring in Golda Katt and go, ah this is the deal. Yeah. And I thought Avery Brooks played it perfect hat and hand.
00:21:54
Speaker
I thought Odo, ah Renee Auburn-Jawai played it perfect. Like, listen, I'm on their team, but I'm not Starfleet. So you got to listen to this, but. I'm not responsible.
00:22:04
Speaker
And I think Goldicott played it, played it perfectly. One thing that did stick out for me is as they're, I mean, this is a high, high level security briefing. He has a bottle of K'NAR on the table.
00:22:15
Speaker
I like to imagine they, they brought that for like to ease the bad news. Like, Hey, Goldicott, could you come in? Yeah. we need to have him He's drinking wine as they're telling him that our most advanced starship is now in the hands of ah of a terrorist and it's heading directly to Cardassian space.
00:22:35
Speaker
So and he's, you know, just boozing it up. I'm like, okay, this is all right, cool. But I i really like like that scene. I i thought the acting was was top notch. And, you know, I i think Goldicott is top two Star Trek villains right up there with Khan.
00:22:52
Speaker
I completely agree. This was definitely one of my great scenes. It was my other. It was I only had two others, but this is like his performance is what makes the scene. What was bothering me on my third or fourth rewatch was like, this guy is a piece of shit.
00:23:07
Speaker
Why are they being so nice to him? Like even Odo, like your to your point is like, yeah, I don't know. Some Starfleet bullshit happens with the transporter clone. I know it's ridiculous, but it's also Golda Kahn. It's like, it's essentially Hitler. yeah but Yeah. Listen. And so I look at it that way and I'm like, are we why do I have to be so nice him?
00:23:27
Speaker
But it is a great, it's, you know, it's kind of like the liberal nineties. It's like, it's, that's in the past. We're trying to move forward. you know but it is something it's a good scene because it's very Starfleet they're owning up to the mistake yeah which is in one of my Trek tropes later on but ah yeah that's a great scene what else did you have um I had, um and and I kind of call this back later on when I talk about best lines, um the scene where Kira convinces him, you have to you have to be
Star Trek Tropes in 'Defiant'
00:24:00
Speaker
a Starfleet officer. You have to you have to analyze this and youre you're not going to make this. So you have to you have to turn around.
00:24:06
Speaker
yeah and and And he basically says, don't go fishing today. don't catch anything. ah My others were just the first two scenes in ops. So after okay after the teaser, you've got, you know...
00:24:20
Speaker
Jadzia asking Sisko is so happy to see Riker because he hates Picard. So it's like, well, real I got no beef with Will Riker. He tried to kill Picard. He almost did a so huge thing. That's right. and He hates Picard. Yeah, that that makes sense.
00:24:34
Speaker
I love the almost gleeful, how you doing, Will Riker? Anything you need. My my son's girlfriend, take her. Please, I'd be happy if you ended this misery that I'm experiencing.
00:24:46
Speaker
And I like when he goes out into ops and obviously Thomas to cover for not remembering having this moment with Dax a year prior during the episode, ah the events of birthright, I believe, is the timing of all this.
00:24:59
Speaker
OK, did you know, do remember that episode? It's where Data gets his he gets shocked by that device from the Gamma Quadrant and then he discovers his dream program. Yeah. At the same time, Worf learns that his father might be alive anyway. That was supposed to be Dax, not Bashir in the episode.
00:25:15
Speaker
one Terry Farrell was shooting another episode that they couldn't reschedule it. um So they put Bessure in. Anyway, um so I really liked those two scenes because that first scene is basically, again, just knowing how much Sisko hates Picard, but also just it's doing, i guess, what's so commonplace now, the crossover Right. So they're just like fully into it.
00:25:39
Speaker
And it's a lot of fun. It's something we don't usually see in Star Trek. And um and everyone seems kind of loose. And it's a good setup for the bullshit that's going to follow. It really is. And I and I think that was all earned. and And as as people watching it, especially people watching it when it was airing. And there's not a back then there wasn't a lot of that crossover stuff.
00:26:01
Speaker
um you you want the characters we love to be easy around each other you want cisco and reicher to get along and pat each other on the back i mean they're all friends it was yeah we're all friends here we're all starfleet so it was it it was really fun to watch and then just the little hiccup of ah oh that's right dax i kind of that's the little hint of everything something's not quite right here yep uh any more great scenes ah That's all I had. Yeah. Just the just the just the one where Goldicott is drinking in the big security briefing scene.
00:26:32
Speaker
All right. i got Let's move on to best Trek troops. have four. yeah Okay. I only have one. Okay. Let's hear it. I have one. And this is an important one. ah when um ah I her name. The Maquis who was in Preemptive Strike.
00:26:49
Speaker
but Okay. She says, she she goes, course laid in, we'll be in the Badlands in six hours. I love the fact that in, at least in this Star Trek, distance, has meaning like, yeah, we're going to hit warp six and it's going to take us six hours to get there.
00:27:06
Speaker
That's the deal. That's great. Warp travel times is how I usually refer to that, but I put that as a worst truck joke. Oh really? Oh, and well this, we talk about it. You're totally right. Cause I'm like, great. They, they mentioned that.
00:27:20
Speaker
So six hours. All right. So they're going to to badlands before they go into the demilitarized zone. Right. So maybe I'm wrong, but yeah, Where did Goldicott come from? He had to warp to Deep Space Nine.
00:27:31
Speaker
Now, at some point in that warp, Sisko confers with Starfleet. And obviously he's not he's not on the fly deciding, I'll go to Cardassia. and and do all like He's prearranged this with Starfleet. they they they didn't They probably didn't even know that Thomas Riker was a thing.
00:27:49
Speaker
Sisko probably calls an admiral and like, where's Will Riker right now? What? Yeah, they could confirm that pretty quickly. But they didn't. know But I'm saying like no one. It's not like common knowledge. It's not like Lower Decks where everyone knows everything that's been in the Star Trek episodes.
00:28:01
Speaker
So but anyway, so did that takes some time. So Gold to cut us to warp there. Then they have to warp. This is the middle of Cardassia. This. Yes. This central command that they go to. So how are they out warping the Defiant is kind of my question. Yeah, that's a little bit of a, that's a little bit of a, you got to give him a little grace on that. I agree. I just put it as a worse only because,
00:28:24
Speaker
ah Except for what you said, because you're right. that's a It's both. How about this? It's both. Just the fact that it takes time to get anywhere is important. Yes. Right, right. and And I like the fact that they acknowledge that. And even on the original series, they were like, we're going to send it to subspace transmission. It'll take a month to get to Starfleet. That's right. Okay, I like that. that's That's the science part of the science fiction.
00:28:44
Speaker
But you're right. They had to get Goldicott there. Then they had to go from there. Then they had to go to home to, you know, they probably had to call Starfleet at some point. Yeah, no, that's that that all took place a little too quick. Yeah. Yeah, that was just the out warping that that I'm wondering. Anyway, what else do you have? Oh, that was the only one you said. That was the only one. Yeah. Yeah. OK, we had the one.
00:29:04
Speaker
Number one for me is goatees equals evil. So that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically goes Mary universe by putting Thomas Riker by having a goatee. That's right.
00:29:17
Speaker
Which is amazing. ah I think this is one that Kristen and I picked out watching early Deep Space Nine seasons one and two. it's Quark's crush on Major Kira.
00:29:29
Speaker
So Peter Allen Fields is the writer who was on staff for the first two seasons. He was not as of season three. And he was the one that would always make sure to kind of ah mention how Quark had the, not just like attracted to her, but he thought very highly of Major Kira. He was into her, um which is why when later on it's like Dax, he's been like madly in love with Dax. I'm like, that's a bummer.
00:29:51
Speaker
He's in the Kira. And so, The fact that ah the episode starts with Major Cure being overworked, if you're just listening to us and not watching the episode. And so Dr. Bashir puts her on, ah you know, says, you're off duty.
00:30:04
Speaker
ah You have to do take a couple of hours to rest. She goes to Quark's. They hand her all these items. has to use two of them. Now, obviously, Quark's not giving all of that away for free. No. The jumja stick, the cards, the credits, the the um the hollow suite...
00:30:21
Speaker
ah program But I guarantee you one of those. He's like, that one I'll put in on the house because it's major cure. It might just be the gem just stick. I don't know. but like He likes her and he was very sweet to
Riker's Crossover Impact
00:30:34
Speaker
her when he was like very ably helping Dr. Bashir do this. Like he was more than i'm willing to do it.
00:30:39
Speaker
That's Quirk's great. What is it? i that Maybe that's another worst trope for me, that that darn Jumja stick, because it just looks it looks like a prop. its do The Jumja stick prop, I think, is a great worst trek trope because it does it it defies belief that an an adult would eat that.
00:30:58
Speaker
Yeah, because I always thought it was like a bomb pop or it was like an ice cream, but it's not because they move it around like it's styrofoam. It's just shiver stick, yeah. No, it's a good worst Trek trope.
00:31:10
Speaker
yeah I put name-dropping Trek figures, which I always find cloying in other situations, but... i My 13-year-old self asserted dominance here. And it's like, listen, I love Star Trek The Next Generation. Now Riker's on the show. He's talking about Dr. Crusher. They mentioned the Enterprise.
00:31:29
Speaker
I'm excited. That works for me. I am a sucker for that. As long as it's earned, i am sucker for that all day long. All day long. And and I think it is earned because he has to convince Sisko that he came from the Enterprise. And he doesn't mention Captain Picard because he knows Sisko's like, well...
00:31:45
Speaker
This is not Will Riker because everyone knows I hate Picard. I put Technobabble as my last great Trek trope. It's get or miss on check Technobabble.
00:31:58
Speaker
It's kind of a trope in its own right that you can detect a warp signature and then look look at a sequence of numbers and be like, that's not the same ship. It's off. But I didn't mind that so much because again, Cisco helped build the Defiant.
00:32:11
Speaker
right I actually think when the the Defiant was introduced, it's like Starfleet's giving us this, but this is basically barely a prototype. And so I imagine they spent a lot of time maintaining and redesigning just to keep the Defiant online. So that makes sense.
00:32:25
Speaker
I also liked the idea that there's they've got a neutrino leak thanks to Kira Sabotage, and that they're saying when you go to warp, those neutrinos will phase shift, and they'll know that there's a ship there.
00:32:38
Speaker
I just like that, even if it's like bullshit, it's like it's an indicator. What I'm saying is it's Technobabble, but it's an it's like a dramatic indicator of of what you're looking for. And it's 24th century technology, so why not?
00:32:50
Speaker
No, i I love the Technobabble. I know um i know when when Ron Moore went over to Battlestar, he didn't want to do that. But if you watch the pilot of Battlestar, there's one section where Apollo does some technobabble and he's like, I had to do that and I didn't want to do it. but But no, I'm i'm all for, um you know, deflectors, the deflector where you know array, all right four millie Cochran's and, you know, whatever. yeah that's as long as it As long as it's consistent and it's limited.
00:33:22
Speaker
I think that those are the things where it works a lot. um All right. Wordstruck tropes. have um I put the right out of the gate, the whole, the CEO or the crew members overworked and the doctor gives them a, you need to relax. So if you don't relax, I'm going to order you to relax and you will relax.
00:33:41
Speaker
because I mean, that's i mean have you know, or it's like, you know, listen, ah it's going to my attention. There's a crewman that's overworked and that it's impinging their efficiency. What? yeah Who is that? They need to, they need to take a vacation. Well, it's you.
00:33:56
Speaker
Okay. You know, it's happened in every in every series. And it's annoying. I totally agree with you. It's one of my worst, worst truck jokes for sure. um I put it's easy to steal a shuttle or in this case, a starship, you know, and in so many things in so many episodes, like it's so easy to steal a shuttle.
00:34:15
Speaker
This is just that writ large. And it's the fucking USS Defiant. and you is de define It's insane how easy it is to steal that ship. Yep. but Yep. He did yeah just phasered her and put his handprint and let' let's go.
00:34:28
Speaker
now the handprint part makes a lot of like that was i did makely that was perfectly organic to what we knew and that's fine. But just like you can fake a warp core breach that easily and they didn't detect it a beam into the Defiant and just it's all these things.
00:34:44
Speaker
If it's, you know, if it's so easy to just beam on the Defiant, then the security measures to get on the Defiant aren't actually that great. You know what I mean?
00:34:56
Speaker
I also put, I also mentioned Warped Travel Times, Cardassian secrecy. so Cardassians and Romulans are two ah alien species that they like to talk about or like they're shrouded in secret.
00:35:08
Speaker
Cardassians are fascists and all that stuff. And when Cisco gets there, and I understand that there might be a dramatic point to that, but it didn't hit for me. So maybe you could explain it. But when they get to this central command thing, the obsidian order rep comes out, makes a big entrance. She comes in the gray door, the one that no one else comes out of. They're like, ah, shit.
00:35:27
Speaker
Right. That door never opens. Here she comes. So that was cool. But then she like loudly tells someone to secure a station and it's, and Cisco makes ah a point of it, which I have as a great line of like, yeah, good, good call securing the stuff. I just think, why didn't she do it beforehand?
00:35:47
Speaker
Like, what are they making a show of to show that they mean business? To me, it would have been dramatized as, Dukat's like, when we there's going to be hundreds of people like looking at every every bit of telemetry through all of Cardassian Sector.
00:36:04
Speaker
And you go inside, there's like two people there. And half of it's been turned off. Because like the Obsidian Order has locked this station down for security purposes. like That would have been the same thing. And then Gold Dukat could have been like, what is going on? And then she comes out the door.
00:36:19
Speaker
She's like, did you really think we're going to let a Starfleet officer just waltz in here and just look at everything? No. So I don't know. I don't know what was up with that in this case. It was annoying f to me to be like, because I have a lot of problems with the storyline. It's like there's nothing emotional really going on here.
00:36:35
Speaker
So I'm not sure what we're supposed to get out of it. And so everything that happens is sort of like an affectation as opposed to something dramatic. And and i wasn't picking up what they were putting down there. So I put it as word trick trick. Yeah, I think, and I have this written, oh, I think I have this written for um the the the Shatner Award, but in the in the middle, um Mark, and I think they probably had to do this, where he talked about his son.
Analyzing Gold Dukat's Character
00:37:03
Speaker
So that's like the, ah ah ah for all the cosmic stuff that's happening, they had to bring it down to something recognizable. on my son And I think because I hate Gold Dukat because it's he's such a good villain.
00:37:15
Speaker
I'm like, I don't give a fuck. Why are we humanizing Gold Dukat? Why didn't they make it so that Cisco had to like wear different clothes? And he's like, why? And like, you could have surveillance gear in your Starfleet uniform. He's like, what the fuck are you talking about? They're my clothes. I'm trying to help you. It's not Cisco's story, which it should have been. And it's so it's very strange to me. Like, does he really? And also,
00:37:37
Speaker
Both of them have said before this that they care about Major Kira and she's not mentioned like until the very end when they're negotiating for a release of everybody. That's right. that's I don't know why I also don't know why riker didn't beam her off the ship.
00:37:54
Speaker
It seemed hu it didn't make sense to me that he like and the fourth rewatch, I'm like, why is she there? Just like put her in an escape pod. Right. And like, right, right. Jettison her like it wasn't about her.
00:38:07
Speaker
And so it's it's just kind of annoying that she's i mean, I know why she's there. And so it's kind of like there's a there's not enough to meet on the bone is kind of what I'm getting at here. And hmm.
00:38:20
Speaker
Yeah, no. Yeah. I mean, she she had to be there story wise. and And maybe they put the shields up too soon for to to beam her over. And he's like, I know we're stuck with her. um ma You know, maybe. Well, what oh I mean is, why isn't why doesn't the Maquis woman Kalita? Why doesn't she say like, Tom, put her in a escape pod and let's let's be done with this. Oh, that's right. Yeah. he Yeah. They could have just launched her out. Yeah.
00:38:42
Speaker
They and then maybe they could say something stupid to just keep her there. And she's and Kira's like the Defiant doesn't have escape pods or something. You know, I mean, like, right. Yeah, they could just done something. But it's just like it doesn't.
00:38:54
Speaker
Anyway, it's not emotional enough, I guess. Well, like we get it seems like it needed one more polish on that regard. um but Again, watching it four times in a row, these are the things that occur to me. So that's insane, i admit.
00:39:07
Speaker
Most cosplayable character or moment? Oh, i've got I've got two of them. okay Okay. I've got the McKee. okay Because it has to be functional, but I think a cosplayer, mean, when I cosplay, it's just strictly captain picard or captain Captain Kirk original series, third season uniform. That's pretty pretty much all I do.
00:39:26
Speaker
But like I think for a McKee, it has to be um functional. because you're you know a a soldier, but it also but also you can you can put your own flavor on it, because it's it's like 24th century civilian garb. So I think cosplayer would love to you know put their own flavor, their own spin, their own taste on on that.
00:39:48
Speaker
And then my second one is um Battle Damage, Major Kira. Oh, that's a great one. That's good. Although I don't think people would do it because those costumes are expensive. Now I'm going to burn it.
00:40:01
Speaker
um I put Thomas Riker because you get to do the detachable sideburns. Oh, that's right. Oh, that's right. So you would be wearing the the classic TNG g season three and on uniform with the new comm badge, which is fine.
00:40:16
Speaker
And then people like oh, you're Will Riker. And then someone would go, ah And they go, you no, no. Oh, that would be good. That people are going, God damn it. That's good. You fooled us. You fooled us.
00:40:28
Speaker
Now it's time for the line, Mr. Jones. Yeah. Great lines. Oh, um I put, um you shouldn't go fishing today. You won't catch anything. That's whether he wants to admit it or not. That's a very Will Riker line. Sorry, Tom Riker.
00:40:44
Speaker
Yep. Yep. and you want You want to alternate? I have one more. dont Keep going. Okay. My next one is, ah I do want that information, Commander, and I would be willing to return your wayward ship, but someone has to pay for what's happened here, and I don't want that someone to be me. Golda Kahn. I mean, it's it's a joke. it's an it's a And I love the fact that Mark Alimo is delivering a joke. He's like, look, there's a lot of crap went down, and I'm not paying for this nonsense. Yeah. What do you think about that deal? I don't think that they would go for that.
00:41:16
Speaker
Go for... they i don't I don't know that the the deal that Cisco is saying is like... To me, it seems like... but Cisco saying, can we have the Maquis crew back and Major Cure and the Defiant? We'll give you the sensor data.
00:41:31
Speaker
And then, of course, it's much it's very reasonable. Like, I want Riker. He's the one that ah organized this entire thing and the sensor data. And I just don't think that the getting the Ministry ah of Justice to agree to a non-death sentence, like, I don't see how that would make any sense.
00:41:47
Speaker
Again, what's Cisco's leverage here? it's the sensor data. It just seems like, well, I guess what my point is, it doesn't seem like Dukat forms a hard line. ah You know, I want the monkei and you can have the stuff that was stolen from you.
00:42:01
Speaker
Major Kira and the ship. I want the data and I want the monkei. I think it's like almost too far that he's able, that's, I mean, good for Cisco, but what's his leverage? That sensor data, yeah I mean, they do have Dukat say multiple times, I really want that sensor data.
00:42:16
Speaker
But, Well, I think he's negotiating in full view of the Obsidian Order. Like, you know, i mean like nothing he's doing is a secret. Hmm. I always I always kind of took it as they were off in the corner because i I think when he was pitching it to the Ministry of Justice and the Central Command, I think he's like, this is our chance to get one up on the Obsidian Order.
00:42:37
Speaker
I think that was his motivation. that They're like, for sure. Yeah, I will take a hit. if we can get info on the obsidian order, that's, that's kind of how I took it. I guess what I'm saying is like, it's still not click. He's like that desperate for it that I just don't see how his superiors would be that happy for it.
00:42:54
Speaker
Like, I see what you're saying. Like I'm willing to take a hit, but it seems like they're like, wait a minute, you let the Maquis crew go. It's like, but I got their mastermind. And, and it seems like, I don't know. It's, it's,
00:43:07
Speaker
Very shaky, but I think in terms of like 90s Trek, it is that balance of, because at least what Dukat's idea says, again, very similar to The Wounded in that scene that you said was your favorite scene or the great scene.
00:43:22
Speaker
was like, you know Central Command is not going to agree with the story. They're going to think Starfleet wants to start a war. And guess what? It's going to get pretty close and then some dipshit is going to do something and a war is going to start.
00:43:33
Speaker
And Dukat does not want a war, which again, ah just like his character in The Wounded, where even the Cardassians are definitely up to stuff. He is like trying to play it as straightforward as possible.
00:43:44
Speaker
And Picard, like everyone's act backing up their talk. Now, do they want to be saying we want peace to exist? Like you're like that is no, but they are both charged given their positions of maintaining the peace.
00:43:58
Speaker
And that's kind of what's happening here. By the way, I almost put as a best trick trope of maintaining the peace. Oh, okay. here Because that's like a good one where they are, that is the other imperative. And maybe that was simply what was dropped later on in the episode.
00:44:12
Speaker
Because Cisco could have said, well, it's the sensor data and no war, right? Like just to just to yeah bring that back, that Ducat raised in the initial scene between them.
00:44:23
Speaker
yeah So I don't know. I think Ducat and Central Command and even the Ministry of Justice really dislike the Obsidian Order. And I think in my head, Ducat pitched it to them. Like we, I can get some serious intel on the Obsidian Order.
00:44:38
Speaker
I can, i we can, And that's why they all kind of went along with it. In my head, that's what happened. I think that's a great headcanon. And then then when they figured out what was going on, they were like, good, let them all charge off, fuck off through wormhole. They don't care.
00:44:53
Speaker
um So mine were Bashir. Stop right there, Major. yep, yep. ye I think they were dating at this point. They might have been close to dating at this point. Oh, that's right.
00:45:05
Speaker
They had a kid together. ah And then when they're in Quark's and Quark is laying all the items out and then Bashir says, now at least two of these items must be used and fully enjoyed before you leave this facility.
00:45:20
Speaker
Cisco's line after the Obsidian Order rep says, well, you understand we had to take some precautions. And Cisco goes, of course, I would have done the same, but then I would have been more discreet.
00:45:31
Speaker
So, yeah I mean, I like when they set up the Cardassians as being these tough guys and then they do something that's like, well, you understand why I had to be a piece of shit, right? And then someone just like, I know that's just, you can't help it. You know, they just, they just call them out. They're completely unflustered by them. It's great.
00:45:49
Speaker
but um but to your to To your line about what what what Bashir said, stop right there, Major. for For that being my worst Trek trope, I think that was an original take on it.
00:46:00
Speaker
Because normally it's like going back and forth, but there, there was a left turn. In other words, you thought he was going to let Major Kira have it. And you're like, ooh, he's but he's he's a lower rank. But then when she turned around and he and he laid into her like that, no, now he is pulling rank. I thought that was a nice little little little left turn to that to that trope.
00:46:17
Speaker
I feel like the Bajorans have run into that in previously in Deep Sea Sign, but I really can't remember. so it was just nice for Kira to remember.
00:46:28
Speaker
he explains it to her. He's like, I can even overrule the captain and the commander. you are so You're fucked. I'm the chief medical officer. Sorry. yeah She's like, what? So i thought that was fun. um Kira, the only, and this is part of her line, but i this is the part of her, of one of her lines I really liked.
00:46:47
Speaker
The only thing terrorists care about is attacking the enemy. I know I was a terrorist. And if I had had the ship, then i would have destroyed deep space nine. I would have hit the Cardassian so hard. They would have screamed for peace, but I certainly would have, wouldn't have gone flying off in the middle of Cardassia on some wild goose chase.
00:47:04
Speaker
and And because that's her next line is, no, you're trying to be a hero. Terrorists don't get to be heroes. And I think it's just a ah good reframing. You know, I wouldn't say that DS9 and Star Trek lionized terrorism.
00:47:19
Speaker
And in Battlestar Galactica, Ron Moore kind of said, like, this is an ugly necessity for people who are in certain situations. I think that's kind of what they're laying it on line as.
00:47:30
Speaker
I don't like Kira being the go-to terrorist advice person and, right and her being kind of like, you the non-visitor is such an amazing actor and she has such a joyful, positive energy that so often it betrays what she was before she was like on deep space nine. I'm like, you were a terrorist and, and you don't seem that haunted by it, which maybe that's fine. They were Cardassians.
00:47:53
Speaker
So she's dispensing some truth here, but I think it's also for the audience reframing of like, Once you decide to use terror as your weapon, and by the way, that's that could be your last resort. So it's like, whatever.
00:48:05
Speaker
yeah You also sacrifice certain elements of that. Like you are only doing one thing one way for one purpose. yeah and And Riker, of course, would not understand that.
00:48:17
Speaker
And I think it was even symbolic that he didn't change his uniforms. he stayed in the Starfleet uniform the whole time. Yes. And I think i think it was, and of i don't know if they meant, to just you when ah you know, we already have the costume. Why why bother change him? It's less money. But i think it's I think it's very symbolic that even though he wants to be this Maquis fighter, he's really, you know, I mean, it's it's it's he's still a Riker.
00:48:43
Speaker
He's still got Starfleet yeah deep deep down. So I think it's kind of a metaphor that he never took the uniform off. Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think costumes reveal character so often. It's something that audiences forget about. Sometimes they they subconsciously intuit, but it's it's very purposeful. 90% the time, costumers are reading the scripts and they're tracking it too.
00:49:09
Speaker
And they're in production meetings. They're making pitches. Sometimes directors, sometimes writers will be very specific about how they want characters look. And other times, which is why they're such great artisans, they will have great ideas for how characters should look based on how they're written and what their role is in the story.
Is 'Defiant' a Good Holonovel?
00:49:25
Speaker
um yeah But I think that's a great that's a great call there, Curtis, actually. Would this have been a fun holo novel to play out? I think so. Absolutely. Now, from which angle are you taking? Sisko, Riker?
00:49:35
Speaker
from from from From all the angles. Because because there's a lot of, it's it's almost like somebody makes a decision and then everybody else has to make their own decisions and then that changes those decisions and then that changes. So ah even if you played this out as a hollow novel, I don't think the end would still end up the way this is.
00:49:53
Speaker
But I think because depending on which character you pick, you can you you you can make it's it's a It's a cat and mouse game. So so depending on how you what you choose, everything else changes with that choice. like like Like Cisco could have said, nope, we have to destroy the Defiant.
00:50:11
Speaker
Or we're not going to destroy the Defiant. We're going to get it all back completely, all the personnel too. um To me, there was ah there was a very good balancing act that went through the whole thing. And I think playing it through as a hollow novel, you can have fun.
00:50:27
Speaker
making different decisions. It's like that choose your own adventure book. Absolutely. All right. Let me pick the one where you jump off the cliff just to see what the hell happens. You know? ah So I think from that aspect, it's, it's political intrigue and I think you can play it many different ways.
00:50:42
Speaker
So from that aspect, I would say yes. I would think it also would be fun, you know, oh, you're Major Kira and you have to sabotage the Defiant. You know, how are you going to do that? That'd be a lot of fun too. I guess I agree with you.
00:50:54
Speaker
There's the the whole part about Cisco just going to Cardassia, the fail-slave portion of it. I'm like, maybe this seemed like a better concept than an actual execution of it, but I guess it could be fun. Yeah, it'd be fun.
00:51:05
Speaker
Especially if you're Riker. Because what if what if the program changes and Chief O'Brien changes doesn't make doesn't take your gambit like your your gambit fails on getting rid of the one person who could determine you're not who you say you are uh what then what what if kira doesn't take you to the to the defiant what if something happens that that'd be an interesting call um all right so then the anti-corinian award for best performance oh i'm gonna say william uh uh john jonathan frakes jeff rakes okay jonathan frakes okay because he had to um
00:51:38
Speaker
I remember reading when he did Second Chances how he wanted to play the two characters different, Thomas and Will, and it was ah it was an acting challenge for him to do that.
00:51:50
Speaker
And I think it was also an acting challenge for him here too because now Thomas Riker is a couple of years down the road, so he has to kind of evolve Thomas. But then at the beginning, he's he's got to be Will.
00:52:03
Speaker
So I think in this... in this episode, he, he gets to do both, but he gets to change Thomas a little bit. So he, he, he, so he he does. What were my other notes I i've put here? Yeah. um ah Yeah. Yeah. Cause yeah, he has to slightly evolve Thomas Riker from, from, from second, you know, from second chances. So I, I think, um and I think, and I think, i think he did he did a good job both in second chances and here to play Thomas different than, than will.
00:52:33
Speaker
So i I think he gets the, yeah, I give it to him. We'll go with that. ah The Shatner then. ah Marco Alamo. so Yeah, yeah. And and and specifically the the scene where where he invokes his son, because I think Alimo's character is very good, and and i'm going to call it Shakespearean, because he's constantly talking about the Central Command and the Romulan Empire and the Dominion. it's He's all very Shakespearean and galactic. They will send a fleet!
00:53:04
Speaker
a fleet and then that person another fleet will come in and this fleet but someone will make someone will make a mistake and then there will be war along the quadrant you know it's it's it's so big but he had to do a scene where he had to talk about his son going to an amusement park yeah and and i it was it was fun to watch him take that he's but he still had to be kind of shakespearean because that's the character and that's who he is to kind of bring it and my son will only see hey Okay. All right. Okay.
00:53:39
Speaker
Shoot to thrill most exciting image or sequence. Yeah. I'm going to say the last battle, the the last Defiant-Cardassian battle with that with with that last ship right before Dukat and Sisko called.
00:53:56
Speaker
What's crazy is as a kid, I was like, there's no way the Defiant's outmatched. It's not supposed to be. yeah Maybe 10 ships is too much, but five? I feel like, no, it should be able to take on five Cardassian ships. Yeah.
00:54:12
Speaker
But I, I, I like the angle where the camera is in front of the defiant and it kind of follows it. So you see everything behind it come in and out of frame. So like, and as compared to like a bird's eye view, I mean, it's space, there's no birds, but you know, it bird's eye view, but like the camera's like, you know, 200 feet in front of the defiant. And it's kind of like, you know, it's, it's a steady cam and you see everything behind it come in and out that, that that's cool. When the defiant, and I think the defiant being a small ship, um,
00:54:40
Speaker
That's kind of the way you do it, like like the big bulky Excelsior class doesn't maneuver around that that slick, but but the Defiant does. And I think for an episode named Defiant, the ship – I know it's a double entendre there, but i but i but I think the ship needs to have a little bit of a showcase, and I think that was it.
00:55:00
Speaker
It kind of gets one. Yeah, for sure. I mean, one of the reasons why a remaster is not going to probably ever happen, or I'm hopeful it will, but it may not be that great, is that it's going to be really hard to re recreate all these space shots in ways that are compelling because...
00:55:17
Speaker
um I mean, Voyager later on has this problem, but, you know, Next Generation, it's like austere you know beauty shots and very rarely you get these large scale battles. And DPS9, no, it's got a lot, of especially once the Defiant comes in.
00:55:32
Speaker
yeah going on there How about you, the Shatner? Oh, come on. It's the camera turn and the ripping off the sideburns. Come on. It's exciting to this day. Yeah, it's so fun. It's so cool. It's like the reason to do the episode.
00:55:47
Speaker
yeah ah There's no reason for it except it's fun. So I love it. ah What part of this will they teach at Starfleet Academy? um To me, this is a very, this is a Kobayashi Maru scenario.
00:56:02
Speaker
no So I think what they're going to teach at Starfleet Academy is what is an acceptable Starfleet loss? Oh, good call. In a situation you're in, what what would Starfleet, you know would they, would you accept the loss of the prime directive?
00:56:18
Speaker
Would you accept the loss of a ship, a crew, a crew member, a captain? you know, I think, I think that's, I think, I think that's a good philosophical question that needs to be talked about in a kind of class at Starfleet Academy.
00:56:31
Speaker
I think that's a great call. I don't think this exact incident would ever be taught because it seems like it'd be very top secret. Yeah, very top secret. Yeah. But I do think the neutrino shift is something that gets taught in an academy. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Seems like such a not basic, but like enough for like this is with Starfleet sensors, what you do.
00:56:53
Speaker
Yeah. This episode have been hornier and would that have made it better? here's my take on that. I would say no Because the only horniness would be between Riker – or between Thomas Riker and Kira.
00:57:06
Speaker
Yes. but if But if it did get hornier, I think he would only do it as a way to get his way because I think him – Yeah, honeydicker. What? He's honeydickener. Yeah, exactly.
00:57:17
Speaker
He just wants to get on the Defiant because I think he so wants to distinguish himself from Will – that he's not going to make the same mistakes that Will did. And one of the and I think he considers the the biggest mistake Will Riker made was letting Deanna Troi go.
00:57:31
Speaker
So I think he is faithful to Deanna Troi or the idea of what that is because there's no way he can lose that. There's no way. because that So I think if him and Kira did get it on, it would strictly be so he could get get the Defiant.
00:57:47
Speaker
There would be no emotional attachment. he He'd be James Bond. I think that's a good call. ah i ah sometimes always I almost always say yes, ah but I think you're right. i do I was trying to think where else could it have come up and maybe Golducott in the Obsidian Order rep could have had...
00:58:06
Speaker
ah Yeah. Could have like either she did something that kind of aroused him or he does something that arouses her and and whatever. And Cisco's like, is that going to be a problem?
00:58:18
Speaker
And Dukat could be like quite the contrary i think or something. And maybe that might have made that sequence better. I'm not sure. um when when When she came out initially, I i kind of i remember thinking that he was like an ex-lover. She was like an ex-lover of his. I thought maybe there was that dynamic there. But no she was just part of the Obsidian Order and everybody hates the people. mean, what's important is like Goldie Cotts like...
00:58:42
Speaker
Basically the head, he's the tippy top of the military. If he's not running the entire Cardassian military, he's like the the brass is like it's Dukat. And then everybody else is basically how it goes. So he's very high up the obsidian. Whenever I see like a spook situation, like those almost always seem interchangeable. Right.
00:59:03
Speaker
Right. they get the The head of the obsidian obsidian order. is not going to just walk out there, you know? So then it's just like, who are you? Like yeah you're from the obsidian order and it's like, okay.
00:59:14
Speaker
ah So I don't know. That's, but also, you know, I get It's like a man and a woman doesn't always have to be about sex and power, but I just, ah using sexuality to get what people want. That's, that's every species. And that might've been a more interesting, but I did like, I mean, to your point about the, I didn't get to take my son to Disneyland speech. Now he's going to hate the terrorists more.
00:59:36
Speaker
You know, that's basically what that speech is fine, I guess. But again, I'm not interested in humanizing or or making us like gold Ducat. um It does speak to his idea of like, we need to try to maintain create a sense of peace.
00:59:49
Speaker
You know what Like we need to stop this terror. That all does track. But it's also like it winds up being political opportunism, right? Like he's not worried about what the Obsidian Order is doing because it could foment more conflict.
01:00:02
Speaker
It's simply the obsidian orders doing something in his backyard and he doesn't know about it. yeah So to me, that's like you're now splitting off and the episode is not about Golducott saying one thing and doing another.
01:00:14
Speaker
If it was about that, then him doing the left turn of like, like he never says, don't you see how having a secret base could cause a lot of problems for us? He's not saying that. He's like, is it being kept for me?
01:00:29
Speaker
I should not have secrets. So that's kind of where I'm like, maybe there's some room for some other emotion in there to make it all. I don't know if you're just going to be very pulpy with this, which is a this is a pulpy adventure. Let's be clear.
01:00:45
Speaker
Oh, yeah. and I think what works for pulpy stories is like. melodrama And we maybe we just need a little more melodrama. Horniness usually is a shortcut to that. So it's a long winded explanation.
01:00:57
Speaker
I mean, for me to give the writers the benefit of the doubt, the whole idea of the son to to to Disneyland, I took that to mean how how can this to me even even make, I think that makes him more evil because he has a family unit in a, in a situation and a son that he cares about, but yet he completely divorces that from we're trying to kill all these people and take over and be stealthy and, root and, uh, you know, uh, fascistic with, you know, I, to me, that's, that make, he, he doesn't recognize that.
01:01:30
Speaker
No, you, those are, you're, you're, uh, those are 280 degree things. You can't be, Oh, I love my son. I want to take him to Disneyland. but Of course, Cisco's in the middle of this. How we kill a Romulan center to get him into the war?
01:01:41
Speaker
You know, it's like Cisco's like just sitting there being like i can't really say anything right now, but if major cure were there, she'd be that's nice that you were able to take your kid to a park. Because the Jordan kids didn't have such things. Yeah, exactly. yeah yeah Yeah, well, you didn't think about the Jordan kids, but no, we're supposed to think about your such. But I guess what yeah what I'm saying is Dukat, a very obvious character trait of his is he will say the quote unquote noble thing. Yeah.
01:02:07
Speaker
yeah to To get everyone on the same page for a moment until he can get what he wants. And the story is drifting in that direction. And I think it should just kept going in that direction instead of the taking that beat to humanize it.
01:02:23
Speaker
ah to To do the, to do the um what's the word? The discontinuity. the The reality distortion field that he's in. you know like I didn't need that. I needed more of just, he's scheming.
01:02:35
Speaker
like i i want I want the scheming back. That's what the sequence is about. and how cisco All Cisco needs to do is get out of here. yes yes like We didn't have a scene of Cisco saying to Dax being like, I need a ship waiting for me at the Cardassian border.
01:02:53
Speaker
ah that I need to... ah
01:02:57
Speaker
I need to get out of there as quickly as possible. Like, that's what i'm saying. Like, I love Captain or Commander Sisko. So I was caring about him the whole time when he was in that moment. Oh, no. And and and yeah I could feel his skin crawling. Like, this is... Yeah.
01:03:13
Speaker
yeah rule ye yeah All right. So Trek, Marry or Kill, Defiant. Defiant. I'm going to go marry. I'm going to go marry. because It's got next generation cast member. It furthers the Maquis story. It has cool space battles and lots of Star Trek political intrigue without being boring. So I'm going to say marry all day long.
01:03:32
Speaker
So for me, for Marys, I like to think about, is it also a great episode of television? It's a great episode of Star Trek. I think it is. It's a great episode of television. I kind of think it is. You kind of, because you pointed out the space battles, like, do we get that a lot?
01:03:47
Speaker
Do we get transporter clones? This is doing something no other shows could do It's in a episodic TV show. It's smuggling in some old fiction about the,
01:03:59
Speaker
The person with yeah ego problems trying to become like a folk hero, try to basically rise above their station by doing something so heroic that has like global consequences. This is like he's not Johnny Tremaine or something like that.
01:04:12
Speaker
But, you know, it's like basically trying to he's too big for his britches. He has to learn an important lesson. And but it also threatens everybody. It also has crossover stuff, which this is probably we have. You know what? We should think about this.
01:04:27
Speaker
OK, this is one of the best. And it's not a crossover, but it kind of is. So let's just say it is. This is one of the best crossover episodes of a TV show ever.
01:04:38
Speaker
I'd say top 10 because you could, people might want to trot in the law and order homicide crossovers, which is good. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of are pretty, pretty consistent.
01:04:50
Speaker
This is such a surprise. It's, it's a novel use of a crossover because it's picking up the most random, not random, but it's like, it's picking up something that was late in season six and But it's like it ah it's all organic. It fits two of their storylines, right?
01:05:08
Speaker
Yeah. that there's There's just a next iteration Riker walking around. this mocky Like you said, the Maquis storyline pushes that forward. All right, I'll go with the Mary. i was I was on a trek, but maybe it's a soft Mary. Maybe this marriage won't last long, but I'll marry her.
01:05:21
Speaker
And maybe I am super optimistic. I am wide eyed when it comes to Star Trek. And well because i my favorite thing to do when people say Mary and when I say Mary is like sitting on the edge of forever and episode in question. Like I always put these two together.
Verdict on 'Defiant' Episode
01:05:36
Speaker
But at the same time, we ah Star Trek fans voted and selected the Section 31 movie as a Trek. So I think, you know, with the one thousand with almost a thousand hours of Star Trek.
01:05:48
Speaker
We are changing things over time, but it's hard to again. All good things define. You know, I mean, like you can do this with a lot of things, but this is a lot of fun. And to the point to start off our theme month, this is a pretty good so good episode of Deep Space Nine.
01:06:03
Speaker
It really is. ah Yeah, i mean I would say it was definitely it's if you're looking at just Deep Space Nine, it's definitely a Mary. don't know about that.
Top 30 Debate for 'Defiant'
01:06:12
Speaker
No, I'm just saying, because when I think, no like is it in the top 30 of Deep Space Nine episodes? Maybe that's debatable, but it's it's really good. I think you're right.
01:06:21
Speaker
and And I mean, let's give credit where credit is due. Who doesn't love Jonathan Frakes? who know Yeah, absolutely. You get a free hour with Jonathan Frakes as Riker, as a Riker. Yep,
Tom Riker's Character Arc
01:06:32
Speaker
yep.
01:06:32
Speaker
And i think I think he deserved another episode. Cause agree that they could have brought him back for season seven when they're doing all the Cardassian liberation or, and I, I feel bad. He, he got, I mean, he, he, he, the character and the, the, both the character and then the, they just didn't.
01:06:52
Speaker
I, I, I think he, I think he, he had one more story, whether, whether he died in that one or whether he, they, they brought him back or whether he just hunkered down. I'm like, Nope, I'm going to stay here. And is where I'm going to live the rest of my life in this prison camp. Cause I'm,
01:07:05
Speaker
paying for, you know, i think I think he had one more episode in him to finish out his Major Cure promises him at the end that she'll get it out of that labor camp. And there's a Deep Space Nine follow-up novel that does tell that story. So some writer somewhere officially, you know, Beta Cannon did do... In Beta Cannon, there's, yeah, yeah all all the crap that didn't get, like, conspiracy from season one of Next
Speculation on Ro Laren and the Maquis
01:07:30
Speaker
Gen. You know, I'm a...
01:07:32
Speaker
I'm of two minds about it because as much as I love Rolaren, seeing her come back in Star Trek Picard season three, you know, there is something to like she went off with the Maquis and then probably when the Dominion, this was something that the Dominion story arc of Deep Space Nine, it's like, oh, the Dominion's getting involved with Cardassian military. Well, that's the end of the Maquis. And I think, yeah, yeah in the show.
01:07:54
Speaker
So it's like, so I assume Ro Lahren's dead. I assume Tom Riker is dead. And there's just, I think letting the mystery be in those cases would have been fine too. I see what you're saying. No, i I would not disagree with that. I would not disagree with that.
Discussion Wrap-Up and Future Content
01:08:07
Speaker
All right, Curtis, it's been a lot of fun. This has been been a great start to our Deep Space Nine. Cool. I've had a blast. I mean, I could i could do another hour on Star Trek. Star Trek, yeah.
01:08:19
Speaker
Thank you for having me. But tell me more about 12 Side Dye. Remind everybody where they can find it.
Promotion of '12 Side Die'
01:08:24
Speaker
Yes, please, if you could, please like on Instagram at 12sideddie12sideddie. That's where all the updates are, and that's where you can – this is going to air, I think, down the way. So we at this point, we will we will either be right at the end or having just finished our Kickstarter.
01:08:43
Speaker
we got a lot cool Kickstarter perks, so maybe I'll even do a late pledge thing where you can get some cool collectible cards – for the series or, or, ah or, you know, a poster or something.
01:08:56
Speaker
um But yeah, you you can like at 12 sided die, and then it's going to be in festivals this whole year. um You can like my Instagram at Curtis four tier. And I post a lot of stuff about 12 sided die on it.
01:09:07
Speaker
um But yeah, it, it directed by Tim Russ and Andy Robinson and Kitty Swinker in it. and And Andy and Kitty are, I didn't realize this. um And by the way, Kitty is married to Armin Shimmerman.
01:09:18
Speaker
don't that's a way. So they're her and Armin are married. yeah So um ah she's incredibly talented in her own right. In fact, as we record this, she's in a performance of Twelfth Night in in Los Angeles directed by Armin Zimmerman. So um I'm going to see that this week.
01:09:33
Speaker
Oh, wonderful. Yeah, yeah.
Casting Stories for '12 Side Die'
01:09:34
Speaker
But I didn't realize when I when i pitched ah Kitty the script that she was – her and Andy Robinson are like old friends. They've been they've known each other for 40 years. So I pitched it to Kitty. Kitty was on board, and then I went over to – Andrew and I didn't know Andrew. I kind of knew Kitty. and like I knew somebody that knew Kitty and I i went through Mary Lou Belai, who's like an amazing director, TV director. And then, um but I didn't, but when I pitched it to to Andy, I did it through a friend of a friend of a friend, but but Andy and Kitty knew each other. are This is a good friend link.
01:10:08
Speaker
This is a good friend link. Yeah, it was crazy. So Andy called Kitty went, you're doing this? And Kitty's like, yeah. So then they kind of agreed to do it together because I gave both of them like a three page meet cute between them. So in the, so in the, in the, in the piece, it's a 12-sided
Overview of '12 Side Die' Story
01:10:23
Speaker
eye. It's a romantic comedy about a bunch of people that play a fictionalized Dungeons and Dragons type game.
01:10:29
Speaker
So Andy in, in the second season, they win a free, a gaming session to, with, with the creator. So Andy Robinson plays like the Gary Gygax of swords and swordsmen. That's the name of the game. So,
01:10:43
Speaker
So he shows up and they're all excited and they're all trying to get, get their game on. And then he shows up and, and he's, you know, not excited about his life anymore. So, and they're like, want to play. So it kind of goes from there, but I, but he, he, he does Shakespeare and then him and Kitty have a meet cute. We, we film at the, at the comic bug in Manhattan beach.
01:11:03
Speaker
So, great so yeah, it's, it's really cool. So follow us at 12 sided die. And if the Kickstarter is still going, when this airs, please, please donate. I would, you know, I would be very, very grateful. But but it's it's it's funny and it's heartfelt.
01:11:17
Speaker
And it's it's it's to to to quote Josie and the Pussycats, come on, watch the good guys win. So that's the thing. So. Oh, wonderful. All right. Curtis Fortier, thank you so much for being on again.
Podcast Social Media and Future Topics
01:11:30
Speaker
We're Trek Mary K pod on social media, trekmarykillpod.com on the web where you can see all of our standings, our treks, marries and kills next week. Our poorly worded theme month of deep state signs season three, leap forward continues.
01:11:43
Speaker
And Sharice the Sci-Fi Savage will return. We're going to talk about part one of the two-parter, It's Improbable Cause. So check that out next week. ah Don't forget, we do monthly animated spotlights with Katie Hampton.
01:11:56
Speaker
Yay, Katie Hampton. Yay. She and Curtis are friends. That's how Curtis was able That's my friend link. Friend of acquaintance, I should say. Friend of a acquaintance. And we just recently did Mathematically Perfect Redemption in Crisis Point 2 for Lower Decks. So check that out.
01:12:12
Speaker
And um we'll have one more of those coming up here in July as we wrap up our season here of Check, Married, Kill. So until next week, TMK on.