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LD: "Trusted Sources" & "The Stars at Night" (s3e9-10) with Katie Hampton
33 Plays54 minutes ago
HUMAN INTEREST STORIES. Did Mariner badmouth the crew? Has Admiral Buenamigo teamed up with an evil AI to takedown Starfleet or is all AI inherently evil? Bryan is joined by Katie Hampton from Geekscape's Napping Through Happy Hour Podcast to work out if the last two episodes of Lower Decks' third season are TREKs, MARRYs, or KILLs and discuss along the way fame, schmuck bait, and their memories of various California cities.
Jump to "The Stars at Night" at (34:06).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Animated Spotlight
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek, Marry, Kill. Breen, Betrayals, California. Maximum Warp Me.
00:00:10
Speaker
Trek, Marry, Kill.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Katie. Welcome to Trek, Merry, Kills, monthly animated spotlight where we look at a pair of episodes and decide if they're Treks, Marys, or Kills. It's the final one of Trek, Merry, Kills third season and it will, coincidentally, be taking us through the end of Lower Decks third season.
00:00:32
Speaker
And returning one last time is the wonderful Katie Hampton from Geekscape Snapping Through Happy Hour podcast. Katie, welcome back. Thank you so much for having me for this. I've enjoyed every single one of these. It's been such a fun time.
Introducing Guest: Katie Hampton
00:00:45
Speaker
This ah this has been like a good, um probably like a tour through something you love with someone who's like, what is this?
00:00:53
Speaker
So resistant. So resistant. And it's it's so funny how many times we were so opposite. Ships of the night on our opinions. Last month, there was shades of you being like, you know, your points that you've been making incessantly for months have kind of sunk in and I can see certain things.
00:01:11
Speaker
But we'll see if that continues this month as we delve into the
Childhood Stories in the News
00:01:15
Speaker
last two of season three. The first one being Trusted Sources, the ninth episode of Lower Decks third season. It premiered on Paramount Plus October 20th, 2022, written by Ben M. Waller and directed by Phil Marks Agadraka.
00:01:28
Speaker
Memory Alpha describes it. A visiting reporter on the Cerritos puts Captain Freeman on edge. Katie, have you ever made the news local or otherwise? There was a time when I was a kid and I was working with um the local Warner Brothers ah production studio to do like kids talking to football players. I know nothing about football. I never did, even as a kid.
00:01:49
Speaker
And I had to like ask a question that they wrote for me. And then something happened recently. I feel like in the last two or three years, i got stopped on the street um when i while wearing a mask, asking if I was going to continue wearing a mask during the winter times.
Discussing 'Trusted Sources' Episode
00:02:05
Speaker
No idea whether that aired or or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that was KTLA. Right on. Yeah. um Mine was when I was in the third grade. And we had to do city... ah pick a city and write a report about it. And I, being a boring child, picked our home city and ah discovered that the bell that's established our city's founding date said one year and all of the patches on like the government workers had a different date. And so that made front page news and I cost the city thousands of dollars and replacing it. Did you really? That's amazing.
00:02:46
Speaker
oh my gosh. That's phenomenal. And then despite that, I did not get a hundred percent on the report because I learned an important lesson about bibliographies, which is if there is no publication date listed, you have to write down no publication date given.
00:03:02
Speaker
So I put everything was correct, except there was no publication date that I could find in the book I was holding. And, um, and so, because I didn't put no publication date, two points off 98%. I'm sorry, what is this? APA format? Yeah, that's what they were teaching us in third grade was proper citations. I mean, that is good, and I'm glad, but at the same time, that's... By the way, that grade came after the newspaper.
00:03:26
Speaker
This was like, there was no fame pass. In fact, there was it was a more scrutiny pass. That is a tough third grade teacher. That's right. that's why That's why I hold Star Trek to such such high standards. I'm like, listen, if people are willing to crush a third grader...
00:03:42
Speaker
I think these people making WGA rates can take a little criticism from a podcaster.
00:03:50
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Oh, it all makes sense now. very Oh, my God. So this has been like a recurring theme through these. The modern day Star Trek is like fame is like a big deal and basically kind of treating this like it would like it's an expose in there.
00:04:07
Speaker
They've got a camera and they've got the lapel mics like the same as like today. It's just not very interesting. But there it is. And it's a big part of the episode. um But I guess my big question, my second question, Katie, because actually yours is better.
00:04:20
Speaker
By the way, what my answer to that question would have yes, yes. I didn't get sick when I was wearing the mask. Why would you do that? no, like, it was like, I will continue to do this, especially during the winter times because numbers rise. That's right. I got the flu shot and I didn't get the flu in any form because I was wearing the mask and having almost died from the flu.
00:04:40
Speaker
I'm like, I don't want to do that again. no would. That makes lot of sense. makes a lot of ah So I guess what I'm getting at for this episode is this feels like an off concept for what Lower Decks is about, because this is not about the premise of the show suggests that it would be a reporter's coming on board to talk to the Lower Deckers.
Real-World Influences and Critique
00:05:03
Speaker
And maybe the captain is concerned about what they're going to say, but it's not from a bottom up perspective. The POV is top down. The Admiral's assigning civilian reporter So like they've cleared this, they want to talk about it.
00:05:17
Speaker
And it's just a weird, like it's something I've been griping about for like the last, for most of the season of like, we're really off the mark of if the show's about the lower deck crew and it's really about the the main, the senior staff now.
00:05:31
Speaker
Well, and then let's go back to every time i talk to you about this. My whole point is that it's not necessarily that they are lower decks in rank. It's that the entire California class is a lower deck seeming like underling that everyone treats as such. And as we've walked hand in hand through the lower decks museum and you've been like, isn't that interesting? I look at that and I go, that's not interesting.
00:05:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:58
Speaker
And I'm like, no, the dates are wrong. Don't you see? And you're like, thousands of dollars. I didn't tell them to change the patches. They just recognized we should probably we don't we have two conflicting founding dates. We should probably change the patches to find the correct one.
00:06:15
Speaker
So ah I guess the other point I want to mention is about the reporter herself. When they made this in 2021, when they were producing it They had no way of knowing what would happen. But I think obviously Olivia Knutzi, the, i what is she a post reporter? She's a journalist, but they named the reporter character, Victoria News a which is obviously to rhyme with expose and it's cute. Cause that's a reporter, but I'm sure it's also driven by Olivia, this Knutzi because she's an attractive blonde woman and she's, you know, gets, gets these scoops.
00:06:50
Speaker
Well, I don't know if anyone remembers, pretty recently, she was basically put on leave because she is married or engaged to ah another reporter. And she had an inappropriate relationship with president then presidential candidate RFK Jr. Wow. And she wrote a profile about him. And it apparently was a ah ah relationship described by a third party as, quote, emotional and digital in nature.
00:07:16
Speaker
What? She sent him lewds and he basically said, I want to own you. You know, I'm sure I think it's come try my horse tranquilizers. It's weird the triangulation because it's like it's wrong to make fun of ah RFK's voice because I guess he's had like a larynge like he had something happen to his larynx that caused his voice to sound like someone threw a cinder block into a dryer. Sure. um But at the same time, this guy's like committed to killing children through his policies.
00:07:43
Speaker
Yeah. And it's kind of like, what are we doing here? And spreading disinformation and not getting vaccinated and all of the stuff that like you know simply can just put a mask on and not get sick. And he looks like a rawhide, like a tanned hide on top of that. So just the idea that this young Olivia Nuzzi is like, I am so attracted to He's like, I want to own you, carnally.
00:08:09
Speaker
ah like that made me just think of that i'm sure they thought it would be cute to name the reporter news for the news but the fact that it's victoria and olivia like to me it's just like i don't think i think it's all seeping in especially when we're all still on lockdown i think a lot of the season was affected by covet in so many ways that i think it's affected so just want to mention that That's interesting. I honestly didn't notice that and or that connection. um I just thought she was just one of those, you know, add on characters that comes on for an episode to try and ruin everything, but then stays around for a full two see two episode arc.
00:08:46
Speaker
My entire premise, Katie, is always like, what are they pulling from the real world yeah to one-to-one? Because they're they do that all the time. And so and in Star Trek, to be fair, would do that too, but they do it in kind of the way that traditionally, and I know that makes me sound very old now, as opposed to maybe it's because there's ah less daylight between concept and production, or maybe it's more of a, we are such a,
00:09:15
Speaker
granular digital information age,
Character Development and Star Trek Tropes
00:09:17
Speaker
right? There's so many silos of information you can exist in. but like in the original series, just like Next Generation, they were doing topical stuff that was in the zeitgeist at the time.
00:09:27
Speaker
yeah Like they in the original series, they were doing stuff about like organ transplants was a new idea. And people were rightfully afraid of that. So they put, they did like how CSI does, you know, CSI always pulls like, what's the, what's the world that we're inhabiting for this particular murder. So it's the same idea.
00:09:45
Speaker
So it just, I think it's because things are much more granular. We're seeing a lot more one-to-one instead of just snarky reporter or like reporter that's there for seemingly benign reasons, but is actually there for ulterior motives.
00:09:58
Speaker
They're not drawing on that archetype. They're drawing from an individual, right? Right, like a specific person. And that's all. that's Well, I mean, Federation News Network is an interesting and thing to have within this. It really is. it And we can't really drop that in the lap of Secret Hideout or anything, because Star Trek Generations, Captain Kirk helping with the launch of the Enterprise B is a big news moment, you know, where we've got a press gaggle and all that stuff. So it's it's there. It's it exists in some fashion.
00:10:29
Speaker
It is very strange, though, that it's like Admiral Buenomigo. Well, we know why. We do now. Yes. And ultimately, this proves our our twinning thesis all the way through here, that there are they are two by two. It's very strange.
00:10:44
Speaker
But a couple of memory alpha notes before we get into the grades. The USS Alito was named after the hometown of writer Ben M. Waller's wife, Victoria. This made the front page of her hometown newspaper.
00:10:55
Speaker
Aww. And they didn't have to change any patches. That's right. Well, you know what? To be fair, I didn't read the article. Oh, okay. Maybe they put the ship on the article. They started it, and then they didn't see the second part yet, and then they were like, oh, fuck.
00:11:10
Speaker
They're like, shit, it's AI. We can't be doing that. Shax claims that the Breen do not take prisoners, which is not true. Many episodes show the Breen taking prisoners and slaves in battle.
00:11:22
Speaker
So the Breen are not like something that I was familiar with. It's the Dominion War? that correct? Yes. Okay. So in Deep Space Nine, pretty famously, they take Worf and Dax, Esri Dax, hostage, take them prisoner.
00:11:37
Speaker
And as a way for them to work out, not their marriage, but like just the ghost of Jadzia between them. so ah Season seven of Deep Space Nine, not my favorite, despite... You know, season, it's just such a high point. It's kind of like they were they were so tired in the seventh season. I'm just trying to get through it like they're they're doing things. They're still putting the same attention to detail, and it's just doesn't quite peak in the same way that five and six do.
00:12:03
Speaker
All right, let's get into the grades. We'll start with great moments. um okay so speaking of the one-to-one type stuff this is such a silly moment and i'm sure you'll hate it but i loved i loved when they were asking about like what everybody is doing like in their free time or whatever and uh the one cadet says that she takes she's taken up uh aerial silks which i don't know if you have had anybody in your life super into that but that is a very big thing in l la or at least it has been for the last couple of years is this like that circle cirque de soleil you're kind of like dangling from the the ceiling with like actual silks and like you're it's almost it's like the new pole dancing classes but it's with silks and like it's a lot more the flying and flowy and and fun uh that is lieutenant shoot that is the ops officer shoot shoot
00:12:59
Speaker
Wait, wait, wait. I think I know. Okay. Ensign Barnes. There we go. Ensign Barnes. Yes. Ensign Barnes, who I believe she was in the um ballroom dancing competition as well.
00:13:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. ah Not in the pie eating contest, as far as we know. That's right. By the way, that was my one great moment from the episode was going to the pie eating contest and it's being disposed of because the captain wants to make, you know, make the ship look good.
00:13:29
Speaker
And Rutherford's like, I've been starving myself. My body needs crusts. And we get the whole melodramatic thing where the security officer is like putting his hand on a phaser, telling them to back off. And Rutherford wants him to stun him.
00:13:40
Speaker
It's such a, it's just pure cartoon, but I loved it. It was, it felt very honest and organic, very innocent in a way that appreciated it. Well, i I mean, that's exactly how I would respond if somebody was throwing away pie. they're like, come on, we'll take some of those with us. let me Especially, hey, you know, and this is timely because the time we're recording this is just a few days after pie day. So I felt a little bit more ah harshness when that happened. I was like, pie day!
00:14:09
Speaker
Blueberry pie, good. No problem with that. Any other great moments? um i i'm not huge on how everybody treated um mariner but i do love that we finally get to see the actual interview in what she said because we've had all of this leading up into it is that Mariner is a cut up. She will always throw everybody under the bus.
00:14:36
Speaker
Everyone assumes even I, when I was watching it for the first time, was assuming that she bad mouth the crew. She bad. my and But I was like, but they haven't shown anything. So I don't think that's quite right. And it's not until you get to actually see ah the interview that it's like it wasn't Mariner's fault at all.
00:14:52
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Any other great moments? Wow. Telling. ok uh no i don't think i have both all right best trek tropes um you go first boimler calling freeman cap'n because in this case it's a solemn one after mariner has left the ship and he goes orders cap'n i know that was one of my favorite lines that was it was one of the saddest cabins we've ever heard great and then we get a ah lot of left-handed combat slaps so I'm always appreciative of that in the next episode they they switch it up they do both so that's fine those are my two
00:15:39
Speaker
um I didn't actually have anything for best trick tropes all right worst trick tropes I'm not a fan of the idea that an admiral has nefarious reasons to. we learn that in this one?
00:15:56
Speaker
I think we get a hint of it. oh yeah, yeah. Because he's he's kind of shuffling them off to one thing after another that like, I don't think we get his full turn until the second episode. We definitely know something's up. You're right. Yeah. yeah so OK, yeah. The bad moral thing. The bad moral. Mm hmm.
00:16:14
Speaker
Any others? Especially since, well, hold on. Actually, especially since we're established and grounded that he's known Mariner since childhood. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's a huge red herring that his name is basically means good friend. Buen amigo. Buen amigo. Yeah. So it's like, ah but it's such, you know what i mean? Like it's such a turn for turn's sake just to, I'll have more to say that about that in the next episode, but i be ever good here. Good here.
00:16:43
Speaker
Well, I'm also, I'm also not a big fan of the California class is the lowest and shittiest class of Starfleet. Yeah, I'll more to say in the next episode about that, too. which we We want to rush to that one. But ah so my two were it's the Enterprise, which usually I like that. It's the yeah oh, my gosh, they're here to save the day. But this is a well that Lower Decks goes to in three seasons frequently. Like every finale essentially comes into a ship coming out nowhere to save them at the last minute.
00:17:13
Speaker
And even though here it's the bad guy for the next episode in a way, ah it's not... It just rings so false in an episode that to me felt like nothing but schmuck bait. Nothing but characters withholding information, you know, or the show withholding, like you said. We didn't see what Mariner said. You know, it's like, that's all just...
00:17:36
Speaker
it's a structural thing that to me just kind of felt limp because they've done it better. And I don't think it quite works here as a reveal of like this new ship that's there to save the day. I understand that's why they felt they had to do it the way that they did.
00:17:49
Speaker
I just think in an episode that even if we ignore my complaint of like, is this show about the lower decks? Now we're still dealing with something different about it, kind of an emotional story about betrayal or,
00:18:00
Speaker
What do people really think of each other? and that just turns it devolves into space battle stuff. It does. Right. But like it also it also kind of quantifies in the beginning when Boimler is making fun of Shaxx and doesn't realize that Shaxx is behind him. And then he. Next episode. Oh, God. OK.
00:18:19
Speaker
yeah oh god okay that sorry You're talking about a better episode. Talking about a better episode. No, because in the next good the next episode is when he's explaining, they're setting up the whole rest of that episode by talking about what he heard and and Mariner's already not there, right? She's already been gone. And so this is, the Shack storyline is the next episode. Oh, gosh, I completely thought that that started in the first.
00:18:45
Speaker
Oh, wow. OK, OK. Never mind. Sorry. But that's that's kind of the the hard thing about the twinning thing is that like so they get a little blur together. yeah So then the other one I had was Carol Freeman's emotional dysregulation.
00:18:58
Speaker
Maybe, maybe it's just ah because I called her many, I've called the character many names before. love, love the voice performance when she gets really good material. yeah But you know the season started with her on a public trial for blowing up a planet.
00:19:11
Speaker
And that's kind of like forgotten. It's a lot of negative press. And she was concerned about the reporter and, and the whole opening bit supposed to be funny where she's like, I'm concerned about that reporter. And like, what's the big deal? And she's like, you better make, clean up your mess. The ship's a mess. And then Dr. John is like, Oh shit, she's serious. And like, that's supposed to be really funny. But I think it's like, wait, we're 29 episodes in and we're still dealing with first, first half of first season bullshit where it's like, she doesn't feel like her crew is together. Like it just felt like falling back on bad habits.
00:19:43
Speaker
for jokes, but also to me, if she really felt like to me, her anger is she's at 10 out of 10 from the start of the episode. And so her blow up at Mariner is to me, not really outside the norm. It's not, it,
00:20:00
Speaker
supposed to feel like a betrayal, but Mariner, but she's been on guard from the very beginning.
Captain Freeman's Leadership
00:20:04
Speaker
Freeman's gets Mariner reassigned, right? She's like trying to push Mariner out of the way so that she doesn't become a focal point of the reporters, ah you know, reporting or whatever. So that's all there. And all that happens is no surprise.
00:20:19
Speaker
Mariner gets, inserts herself and causes a problem, which Freeman was trying to do from the very beginning, but it's also spread out to the whole ship. Like it's, you know, see what i mean? Like if she had just focused on Mariner,
00:20:30
Speaker
Like she had been like, this ah we we need to be in ship shape. I trust you all, but I need you all to keep an eye on a Mariner. Or they'd be like, there's one problem I foresee. And then all of them could have chimed in with Mariner, your daughter, Mariner, man. Like if they had all done it, then it would have shown some growth in every part of the show. And i just know and that everybody was on the same page and that she was actually delegating as opposed to just being like the only pinpoint of, yeah.
00:20:53
Speaker
Yeah. Understandably, i think it is also interesting that um a lot of Freeman's goal, like basically her character arc is to trust her crew and the people around her and she hasn't because she's more...
00:21:10
Speaker
She's more obsessed with outside eyes or hierarchy or whatever than she is with the actuality. And I feel like it's not until she's forced into a situation where she has to act within the moment does she completely forget about outside influences.
00:21:28
Speaker
Yeah, I'm with you. I just I'm not sure. it feels like the show's not rewarding that, but not not yet criticizing that. Yeah, I guess when you since we know how it ends, it does seem like that the fact that she's willing to go to Starbase 80 and all that stuff, she's like willing.
00:21:45
Speaker
It is a step, not step down. It's like ah she gains grace in some way. She does. Well, and that's the thing. I mean, especially when they started talking in their their interviews about how the entire engineering team had to go to like a spa day or something like that. And then they engineer, you know, the whole spa thing.
00:22:03
Speaker
That was a Freeman freak out episode. And Freeman just hasn't been able to fully come down from all of those different things. And it's not until she like has to actually be an acting captain in a big scenario that she finally loosens up a bit and just...
00:22:21
Speaker
does her job. Everything else feels like it's putting on airs. it's It's for the camera. It's for someone else. It's for someone else's opinions. And it's not until she's faced with a real situation does she actually act like a really good captain.
00:22:35
Speaker
Yeah, i I just, we've seen it better. know, I know. just So her losing her shit in this one, i'm just kind of like, I think that started, she created the problem she was trying to avoid.
00:22:46
Speaker
you Yeah. But I don't think the episode's really about that. yeah Ultimately. And that's where it falls down for me. All right. Most cosplayable character or moment? um but did i This is tricky.
00:23:01
Speaker
Yeah. Because these both... It's kind of weird to say even the second part, but like it kind of felt like bottle episodes. And I don't think that the reporter, the journalist gets... she doesn't like have a lot of flair.
00:23:12
Speaker
Right. So she has little camera thing yeah robot are on her shoulder, which could be cute as a cosplay thing. um I don't know. Maybe just like the little girl hiding behind the trash can, waiting for a ransom to get her blown up.
00:23:25
Speaker
I put in a Naren as a crossfitter.
00:23:30
Speaker
That's actually really good. It's very good. So I thought that was maybe the one thing you could, really if you were really deep diving there the reporter one's good though too especially now with drone technology and stuff yeah um yeah would you be in the in the one you suggested though would you be the trash can and then just have the cut out of the animated figure and it would like partially be dissolving like like neon lights like yeah It would be like one of those like projected on like a silk or something like that. And then it's just like something happens and it just like explodes yeah off of smoke and then you pull it in.
00:24:05
Speaker
i guess the obvious answer is I'd be a Breen soldier. And I was like, I mean, bre the Breen was something that I was like, oh, maybe. But it kind of just feels like Cylon, honestly.
00:24:15
Speaker
ah ah Now it's time for the line. Great lines. great lines Okay, I have... did do um Sir, look at me! Look at me!
00:24:29
Speaker
Please, just one! This is Eugene Cordero. um And then Paul F. Tompkins is the ah security officer. I can't. You know I can't. And then shirt rip.
00:24:39
Speaker
Then stun me! And Paul F. Tompkins, no! No!
00:24:46
Speaker
It's my favorite moment from the episode. It is like just pure slapstick. It's so slapsticky, but it's so real. It would act the same way. um i mean, it goes back to one of my favorite moments. um I just signed up for Ariel's silks.
00:25:02
Speaker
but so ah There's a list of approved people. Manhavers on it.
00:25:11
Speaker
So that was talking about... he we bonded over Manhaver. Yes! i love I love that Manhaver is in this so often as just a good guy, but he's kind of a twat.
00:25:25
Speaker
um you don't You don't even have working communications. First of all, rude. Of course we have working comms most of the time. That was the Starbase 80 crew. Not really...
00:25:37
Speaker
um I didn't put it down, but I appreciated that they were doing a bit with the bat being loose. And I liked the voice acting of the guy. i thought he was really good, especially he was like, get the bat at the end or whatever. He's like, he it just the the flat tone that he says it in. That was great delivery.
00:25:54
Speaker
But I maybe you should have put it as a great moment, but i already gave. one great cartoon moment. So I don't know. I'm going to put it in there. It's great. It's great. it When you're writing a sitcom, it's you have to remember to be funny and sometimes and also we have with respect.
00:26:10
Speaker
I'm I always criticize the show for making jokes where the punchline is just a Star Trek reference. And both those are not examples of Star Trek references being the punchline. So good job.
00:26:20
Speaker
Good job. everybody Great circumstances. Absolutely. Any other great lines? ah That's all I have. So mine was just Mariner saying, there's plenty to do around here that doesn't end in sugary diarrhea. And Boimler says, huh?
00:26:32
Speaker
Maybe for you. so good. Now it's time for the line must be drawn here. Great art. i A lot of the exterior stuff, even the Alito coming in, i thought was really beautiful.
00:26:46
Speaker
um i do like the look of the Alito. I hate the Alito, but but I thought it was ah really beautifully done. A lot of their exterior and their fight shots.
00:26:57
Speaker
So back to Onara, I put the mural is pretty funny and interesting. And maybe some fan has already turned that mural into a poster. Maybe there's like a Trekkie heavy narcotics anonymous group that you sent.
00:27:11
Speaker
There's the Enterprise warping away. There's us dealing with our demons. And then we found... You know, know i really liked that mural. I thought it looked great. The fact that they kept lingering on it in the background. It's like, you know, someone spent a lot of time on this. We might as well put it in a lot of shots. I was like, I appreciate it. and i would like to draw attention to it as well.
00:27:29
Speaker
I completely forgot about that. That's actually a really good call. Would this be a fun holo novel to play out? Maybe the interactions with the Breen. That was a scary thing. That felt like zombie-esque. ah Like we're walking into some kind of ah walking dead situation. They're not surviving that attack, by the way.
00:27:47
Speaker
Yeah, no, I assumed. Even even like the battle lasted way too long with that little Serena, with that California class. The Defiant got its ass kicked by Breen ships. There's no way that the Serena is hanging in there. Yeah.
00:28:05
Speaker
I put no, because you're basically dealing with, it's all about tension and betrayal. That doesn't seem like a lot of fun. If you could do the piety contest though, which by the way, that should have been the payoff in the good, good version of this episode is the piety contest goes on anyway, or somehow or whatever, but we don't get that.
00:28:26
Speaker
But no anyway, it seemed like they were setting us up for the piety contest I mean, it does, and it it doesn't even pay off in the second episode. So I'm like, oh, that's actually interesting. ah what the What part of this will they teach at Starfleet Academy?
00:28:39
Speaker
When to have the pie eating contest after all of the... I literally didn't have anything, so that actually works well. I think they'll teach the whole Onarin storyline that sometimes leaving people alone to solve their own problems with a little nudge in the direction, you know, as a treat, you know, in the direction of where they should go.
00:28:59
Speaker
ah sometimes a little
Lessons from Lower Decks
00:29:00
Speaker
interference is good for the soul is what I wrote. So sometimes, you know, some species might perceive you as a God or whatever, and you don't have to play into that, but maybe in the role of what,
00:29:11
Speaker
Traditionally, cultures have looked at as his God. You can provide that guidance if you really are providing some sort of outside perspective of like, you know, which I don't quite i don't have symbiosis on the tip of my tongue here.
00:29:24
Speaker
But it's basically like, you know, you have a lot going for you it' if not for this. Like you should try to overcome it. And that doesn't mean that's like in that you will will necessarily succeed, but you need to try because look what's happening to all of you. So don't know. I think that's part of a larger lesson of of what is our responsibility.
00:29:46
Speaker
So it's obviously the prime directive, no cultural contamination. But once you're in it, how much How often do you also influence? how How much do you come back and check on? and how much do you let them do it on their own? Yeah. And this isn't quite no interference. This isn't like a non-warped species. This was like the Enterprise was ferrying people. it was all they knew about everything. It's just like, yeah, you sometimes you do have a responsibility, whether you like it or not, which is, I think, a great message to have today.
00:30:15
Speaker
you know I think this all stems from American interventionism, Star Trek does, in the in the world, post-World War II and all that. And a lot of good and a lot a lot of bad and a lot of good and some good came of that. So there is that.
00:30:28
Speaker
But on a groel on a ground level within our communities, and I know it's easier to just kind of turn our back. But if you can help someone, like if you can help someone, you don't have to butt in.
00:30:39
Speaker
But if you're in a position to help someone, maybe you should help someone. Definitely. the But unlike the Christian crusades and things like religious pilgrimages that go in just kind of make it their own culture and not necessarily help them as where they are, i think there should be some kind of parameters. And I think that's what the private directive helps with so that you're not making somebody worship a God that they For sure. i was trying to keep the god stuff out of it. But yeah, that's always the the risk. And that's what Operation Flyby is all about, right? Like checking in to be like, did they fall back into worshiping computer gods and all that crap? Yeah.
00:31:18
Speaker
All right. So Trek, Marry, or Kill, trusted sources. This is one of those i solid Trek. It wasn't necessarily anything that I would throw by the wayside. I thought it was a nice setup for the last episode.
00:31:30
Speaker
um Solid Trek for me. I gave it a kill. I knew it! Uh, it's so weird to me how much this, cause I go into all these with an open heart, just like, it just came off as a wet fart for me. It's just not, I think it's concept was so obvious. There's nothing like interesting about it.
00:31:49
Speaker
The, the turn is so fraught. Like it's so forced with the way that Freeman blows up at Mariner and what she winds up, you know, having a reassigned, I feel like the Breen ambush comes out of nowhere.
00:32:03
Speaker
It's and it's all for like show, obviously. But again, I'm really thinking about like, what what is the point of the show? Like, what is the show trying to tell us or what is it trying to do with Star Trek? And at the end of the day, I think it was much more interested in setting up its finale than it was telling an interesting story with our characters. The season is also reminding me the season, probably because of a lot of complaints that, you know, Mariner and Boimler kind of get sidelined in their own show.
00:32:32
Speaker
There are two front characters, but in this episode, it felt like all four of our lower deckers got kind of. so said Yeah. And I didn't appreciate that. I didn't think, I think that's what made the episode weaker, to be honest, how they were dealing with everything. And it even, even that plays out it in the next episode, how they're, they're not even there for Mariner when, you know, they're just kind of like, we're just taking the cap, what the captain says at face value. And we're, we're kind of going along with it. I don't know.
00:33:00
Speaker
There was just nothing in this episode that felt organic. It all felt like we have to hit this plot point. We have to hit this plot point. Well, it felt like they they they really like they finally had consequences for Mariner. Like that was one of the things that ah was a big turning point in this episode. They finally ship Mariner off because they've been threatening it for so long. An assumption for them being assholes and and assuming. Yeah.
00:33:25
Speaker
But that's what Mariner does. That's exactly what Mariner does. So it's a little taste of her own treatment type of situation. And of course she could have said this entire time. I said the nicest things about everyone. What are you talking about? Well, that's where, that's where I go. The hand of the show comes in of like, you have to write it in a schmuck baby way to like, if people just told the truth,
00:33:47
Speaker
or were clear, then you wouldn't have the conflict. And so you have to like convolute a reason to, ah to make it, to make the plot layout as it does. It just fell flat for me. So we'll put it to vote.
00:33:59
Speaker
We still have one more episode left in season three. Yes. Not over yet, baby. All right.
Overview of 'The Stars at Night' Episode
00:34:04
Speaker
We'll be right back.
00:34:17
Speaker
You got me there! Say I got the idol! And you're sneaking out without making big deal of it, right? Oh, totally. I'm playing it very well. Oh, no!
00:34:36
Speaker
The Stars at Night is the 10th and final episode of Star Trek Lower Decks third season. It premiered on Paramount Plus October 27th, 2022, written by showrunner Mike McMahon, directed by Jason Zurich. ah Memory Alpha describes it. The Cerritos crew must prove their worth in a mission race.
00:34:51
Speaker
What Memory Alpha doesn't mention is, and I forgot to write a summary, so I'll have to do that later. Okay. okay if right, so the episode title is the opening line of the song Deep in the Heart of Texas. The stars at night are big and bright, deep in the heart of Texas.
00:35:04
Speaker
I didn't do the clap, but I've never, ever been able to think about the these lyrics without the clap. But Katie, most importantly, Katie, have you spent any time in Texas? You know, only briefly for like a week when I was touring colleges with my sister.
00:35:21
Speaker
But that's it. Great food. Lots of leather. yeah yeah Did you grow up in Texas, Brian? No, I've only stayed there as ah for layovers on flights. And the first flame war I ever got into online was wasn't like some sort of chat room. Because in college, I got like access to the internet instead of like through AOL. and so was like But then I still found my way back. ah just like I'm from i born and raised in California. So I'm like, California, great. And Texas like, Texas is the best. And I'm like, go to hell.
00:35:54
Speaker
Texas sucks. Yeah. And so it just basically been that the whole time. And obviously there are good things about Texas. There are good people in Texas. I know people in Texas don't believe that about California, but whatever. I don't give a shit.
00:36:05
Speaker
ah so But yes, my opinion of Texas has always been low, ah whatever. And so I've always had an issue. And so I think it's pretty funny that the fact that the California class ship is being threatened by the Texas class.
00:36:21
Speaker
I'm like, this is, I am not um unique to this battle. like My opinions and feelings about this are not unique in any way. And here is a so a show, my childhood favorite show, Star Trek.
00:36:33
Speaker
Just basically dramatizing it. No, and that that is very valid because that that I feel like it's almost like when New York makes fun of Californians and we're like, oh, okay. Right, right. Fine. Fine. I do like that New York has no like Texas. I feel when they make an attack are pretty like they've they've actually been here.
00:36:56
Speaker
And when New Yorkers talk about California, it's like I ran in, I woke up and I ran into a wall at full speed. And then I sat down and I thought about what California is. and um It's very strange, but anyway.
00:37:12
Speaker
Bunch of California class ships are listed here. By the way, I don't know why they gave the the Texas class ship a cooler design than the California class ship. I am not a fan. And I know that that is AI ship.
00:37:25
Speaker
That's why. Yeah. ah So all the California cities that they listed, a great job, Jack Quaid, by running through all these. You've got the Alhambra, the Anaheim.
00:37:38
Speaker
I've never heard Alhambra pronounced that way. I've always heard Alhambra. Alhambra, Anaheim, Burbank, Carlsbad, Cerritos, Culver City, Eureka, Fresno, Inglewood, Joshua Tree, Merced, Mount Shasta, Oakland, Pacific Palisades, Redding, Riverside, Sacramento, San Clemente, San Diego, San Jose, Santa Monica, Sherman Oaks, Vacaville, Vallejo, and West Covina.
00:37:58
Speaker
I have been to most of these cities and have some memory, distinct memory for all of them or the ones that I've been to. So I don't know. i you don't need to count. But have you been to the majority of these?
00:38:11
Speaker
Majority of these? Yeah, I've either been to or lived in um a good portion of these. Where did you live? um okay so or at least stayed in for a good amount of time so alhambra was near where i went to college um ah that when i went to college in azusa pacific um anaheim um is one of those things that i spent a lot of time did a lot of shows down there burbank i lived in burbank carlsbad i went to a lot for um looking at cars same with the cerritos i've never been to the caverns though
00:38:45
Speaker
Oh, yeah. No, haven't. Yeah, i haven't either. Yeah. um Culver City is where a lot of digital things shoot. um A lot of Sony projects. I worked on my first movie there. Yeah. Yeah. I know Culver City well. So, yeah.
00:38:58
Speaker
Eureka, I'm pretty sure I visited as a kid um because of the nature out there is really great. I've never been to Eureka, but I've been to Y-reka. What is that? There's a there's a Wairica.
00:39:10
Speaker
I've also been to Sonora, which is also very north. But yeah I've never been in like Red Bluff. I've been maybe through Chico's like, which is all like that's more inland than than ah Eureka, which is more which is on the water.
00:39:23
Speaker
Fresno, we all have if you've driven through California, but also. Also, I went to a wedding, I think, out there. um Inglewood is definitely one of those places that you kind of go in and you visit. i had an amazingly awful audition in Inglewood.
00:39:37
Speaker
ah Joshua Tree, I've actually not been to Joshua Tree, but everyone. You must go You must go. And actually, you should go soon because oh yeah the defunding for the camp. ah forks be brought that But Joshua Tree, i was like, i didn't go until ah ah couple of years ago. And I was very much...
00:39:55
Speaker
I'm sure you could imagine being like all the Instagram people being like, oh, this is some like hipstery, bougie, you know, woow woo thing that's going to be super annoying. And then it's the desert. So it's super hot. But I like the heat, but not for too long. But doesn't matter.
00:40:10
Speaker
Once you get into the park and you see those actual Joshua trees, it is an enchanting, magical place. It is incredible. It's did you ever camp? It's a cool community. We did camp. I have camped in Joshua Tree. So ah it's ah it's really cool. I definitely recommend it if you're in the LA area.
00:40:26
Speaker
um It's something you need to go to. Merced. Merced is definitely something a lot of friends grew up in Merced. Not the greatest town. Yeah. yeah Yeah. That's right.
00:40:37
Speaker
ah Mount Shasta. I've never been. I visited very briefly. Yeah. Oakland. I have family out there. Pacific Palisades. Yeah. Yeah. Pacific peace specific Palisades. I know. Yeah. I i even trained down there right before the fires and then that studio burned down.
00:40:54
Speaker
um Reading another re and Riverside all friends. I've visited Sacramento's where my sister lives. san Have you ever gone on the state capital tour?
00:41:04
Speaker
No, I haven't. That was a great school thing that I thought I think most California forty kids have done if they're in Northern California or close to it is go to the state capital. But I know a lot of really great restaurants out there. Do the the slow ah cook movement that's up there in Sacramento and like ah Northern California is so great and so fun. And there's so many incredible restaurants out there.
00:41:29
Speaker
We have a lot of great ones down here, Katie. We do have a lot of great ones down here. But sometimes when you get out of the l LA area. That's true. That's true. ah San Clemente. Yes. I've been to a wedding.
00:41:40
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. It's beautiful. It's very nice. San Diego. Of course. Of course. My parents. Beautiful. and Also beautiful. ah Yes. Comic-Con. Yes. Yeah. add That too. San Jose. Yes, I have, but I have to be honest. I have never spent, I had never spent a day in Santa Monica or San Jose until I went to WonderCon recently.
00:42:00
Speaker
Every other time I've been to San Jose was at night to meet up with friends and then go to bars or to grownups nas in to go to hockey games. So it wasn't until like literally two years ago or a year ago that I was like at San Jose during the day for weekend. I was like, oh yeah, this is really nice.
00:42:20
Speaker
It is, it is. I think I went to TwitchCon up there. Nice. Yeah. Santa Monica have I I'm gonna say i lived in Santa Monica I lived right the border in West LA was like a pocket between West like between Beverly Hills and actual Santa Monica that's just West LA but I was right on the border and so I'm just gonna say I would live there but I mean that's why I say that for a Burbank I mean I was really Glendale on the edge of Burbank but it was like so close and everything was just it was basically Burbank
Star Trek's Realities and Themes
00:42:48
Speaker
Sherman Oaks. I also live in Sherman Oaks. I currently do. Shokes.
00:42:52
Speaker
The Shokes, the good old Shokes. I've been trying to find a Sherman Oaks model of a Starfleet ship. What's the coloring on it? I couldn't spot it. I couldn't spot it. I know that there, I think it might have been yellow or blue. I can't remember. yeah there's gold and a blue yeah and there's green and reds yeah um i couldn't remember which one it was but i i know that they do have at least a cerrito somewhere out there and then i might get that as by way of vacaville vacaville i have been a really great um hispanic food
00:43:27
Speaker
So I've been to Vacaville, obviously, and then now this is where we get into the rivalry with Fairfield, which is not listed. Ooh. Because Vallejo is listed. Those are two cities in Solano County.
00:43:39
Speaker
yeah Fairfield is the county seat, but Tani Newsom's from Vacaville, so she wins the rivalry. Oh! so that okay makes sense and then west covino was right next to azusa as well and that's where we went to go hang out in like actual restaurants and not just um yeah uh trendy corporate stuff so that was a fun little tour through california in starships so yeah but if you're helpful yes but if you're doing the california versus texas battle the Texans can fire back with.
00:44:11
Speaker
It took all those ships to take down one Texas class ship. Because AI ship.
00:44:18
Speaker
AI ship that had Badgie's whole personality attached to it, but not Badgie itself. An unregulated death machine. I've never heard of anything more Texan. Yeah, that makes sense.
00:44:32
Speaker
All right. Some production notes from Memory Alpha. The USS Vans... Actually, this isn't from Memory Alpha. The USS Vansitters, which is the sovereign class that warps in first to help the Cerritos and gets rinsed.
00:44:44
Speaker
ah That is named after the vice president of Star Trek brand management, For Paramount Global, John Van Sitters. Might be Cedars. Anyway, the fort now this is memory alpha.
00:44:55
Speaker
Four admirals appearing on the Starfleet Council have been previously encountered in the series. Admiral Wong first appeared in Temporal Edict. Admiral Parker appeared in We'll Always Have Tom Paris and Reflections. And the Trill and one of the human admirals previously appeared in Trial Sketches in Grounded.
00:45:10
Speaker
You know, I like when they do that for like continuity sake, but also in animation, it's just reusing models you've already spent money on. So because my as we get to our final animated spotlight here, I just want to point out that one of the funniest things that has occurred to me while covering an animated show, reading about animation,
00:45:30
Speaker
having friends who work on these shows and all that stuff is that again, they open your mind limitless possibilities with animation, but there's the realities of time and budget yeah that comes in. And it's so you get funny shit. Like we can make a starship, but we can't put the scene outside.
00:45:48
Speaker
but we can recreate the alpha quadrant, but don't you dare ask us to put a cup in their hand. Like that's just so funny. That it's very funny what happens, but that's just the reality of animation. So I just thought I'd put that.
00:46:05
Speaker
Okay. Let's get into the grades. Great moments. Okay, so I guess it was a great moment of this episode, but I did. um I love that Shaxx got so offended that Boimler was making fun of him. You know, ah what's the sincerest form of flattery? Imitation. Exactly. mean, Shaxx, come on, man. and getting a little tender on that, but I love where... Not to a Bajoran, probably. I bet Cardassians mocked them so much. So, yeah.
00:46:35
Speaker
That's a good point. That's a very good point. um Yeah, so i loved I loved where that led to and where the ah the end of that storyline. Well, that's why I think the whole, i for me, the great moment I had was that first scene where Boimler tells Tendi and Rutherford about the rumor about all the California classes being shuttered because that whole scene sets up the whole episode.
00:46:58
Speaker
Yeah. Whatever. It's all right there. So, um, yeah, that's part of the moment. We get a reference to wait, who heard this? And he goes, Hans, the towel guy. And then, uh, that turns out he's very reliable on the rumor.
00:47:13
Speaker
mill um you know rutherford is amazed by the texas classes code uh he's kind of obsessed with it i i think jack quaid does a great job uh with with the fred tattas tattaschore impersonation for shakes he does he has actually a really good impression of like all of the crew members yes that's true so great job there by everybody I'll be very disappointed if someone chimes in with like, actually it was those voice actors doing the voice. I'd be very upset. no, I highly doubt that. It sounded, it sounded very much like Jack Wayne. Yeah. ah Any others?
00:47:48
Speaker
um i i loved the fight the the the spaceship fight in this i i thought those were really cool it really did make me cringe a couple of times when they get hit and just like a beam goes straight through the front of the deck um that like i was actually very concerned for that ship uh best trick tropes um i thought it was an interesting trek trope. I don't know if it's the best trek trope, but I thought it was a cool trek trope that we get more of Rutherford's story by him recognizing the code within the AI ship.
00:48:27
Speaker
I thought that was a really, really cool moment for him and for us to discover a little bit more about like what happened to Rutherford. Yeah, I... I think that all works. I mean, obviously they planned it so it all fits together, but that was, that was good.
00:48:40
Speaker
I think that was effective. Yeah. um Any others? um i love that um mariner even though she's finally doing the thing that she pretty much wanted to do just take off and like do all this ideological dig type stuff she does the thing that she always does and she goes against protocol quote unquote and she tries to find out who is actually funding this and then she finds out it's picard um
00:49:10
Speaker
I love that realization. And then on top of it, it almost motivates her to go back and help out her former ship. I wonder if they were like, can we get Patrick Stewart for a scene?
00:49:23
Speaker
I wonder how far along they went with that. Because this is around the time when Picard was starting
Ethics and Villain Development
00:49:28
Speaker
up, I think. And also he did all that voice work. He does all that voice work for American Dad, you know, so it's just like, it's not like he wouldn't do it.
00:49:35
Speaker
Right. So I wonder how far along. But I had the sanctity of life o that Tendi finds that. And I like that Ta'ana is, you know, it's like it could have happened to anybody.
00:49:48
Speaker
This makes a lot of sense. Like everyone, everyone did things by the book. Yeah. The part that Starfleet and as a Starfleet officer, like tell the truth, but also preserve life.
00:49:59
Speaker
I think think that was a great reminder, ah good distinction between the, Ships, i'm I really have an issue with it being like such an afterthought, though, that Freeman doesn't realize that in the moment and that somehow that's not... The full report should be made... ah You know what I mean? Like they have to contrive for the...
00:50:20
Speaker
problem like why wouldn't the panel see the full reporting you know she's like freeman's like i have to go tell them like they're gonna see it in the final report they're not gonna make an instantaneous decision but it's a cartoon so you have to do x y and z but anyway it's still it for the episode kind of the turn kind of hinging on it it's very star trek so good job like that's yeah if you're if You if you've lost your memory somehow and you remember very little about Star Trek, that's a very important one to keep in mind, I think.
00:50:50
Speaker
Sure. yeah um I have one more. ahead. Slapping down Worf. That's what we usually call it in Next Generation, where Worf gives a suggestion and they're like, no.
00:51:01
Speaker
You know, Worf's like, we should fire torpedoes. But here it checks. And for what and like he's playing the Worf part. And for once, and they've made it into a running joke where he all he's ever wanted to do is eject the Worf core. But it's his suggestion that's correct.
00:51:16
Speaker
Again, a cartoony way for Boimler telling everyone to shut up Yeah, ah that's a good trick trope for once. It's not it's rare that they because they so they deny war for Shaxx in this case.
00:51:29
Speaker
Right now, Boimler is gets the opportunity to bring it back up, becomes the solve for the episode. which was very funny. um So there we go. worst true it's it's almost the It's almost the false ah solve for the episode because then everyone except for the Alito gets taken down. right And then the Alito comes out.
00:51:49
Speaker
And then that's when we get one of my favorite moments is when all the California class ships come in. And I honestly, I cried a little bit. i'm not going to lie. I thought it was really fun and I thought it was great. And ya we're all working together.
00:52:03
Speaker
that's very much a trick trope. worst trick tropes uh the bad rule again the bad rule stuff like even when captain freeman calls him out and says like you are not one of those bad faith admirals that's up to no good you're better than this less and then buen amigo says i'm really not you know i'll i'll say you attack the alito out of anger when you lose the race it yeah Yeah, I'm totally with you. And her calling attention to it, i actually think was the good part of it. It's great. But it's usually not how it works.
00:52:37
Speaker
but Again, this is just like a secret hideout thing ever since these new shows have come on that once they're revealed to be a villain, it becomes the most mustache twirling. Like he says, I'm really not. And it's like... the way it's supposed to go is that he is so certain of his beliefs, right?
00:52:54
Speaker
That he will not bridge any threat to them. And what's supposed to happen is like, he's supposed to give so a somewhat more benign order to the Alito saying like block its comms.
00:53:06
Speaker
And like corrupt its computer, like so they can't send the reporting or extract this information from it. And then the Alito is supposed to get out of his control.
00:53:17
Speaker
It's not supposed to be like destroy them. ah It's supposed to be much more Starfleet because what I mean, like think about his plan. Oh, they were an enemy. So we destroyed them. That's still not how it works in Starfleet. You arrest them.
00:53:31
Speaker
yeah you you know i' Or on top of it like Starfleet is so hard. I need to keep upping my game and being more impressive. Really? I'm pretty sure we've gotten quite a few admirals that are just like, mad don't care. I'm just chilling.
00:53:46
Speaker
So the idea that the AI gets out from under his control is so obvious, but it's like that... That's what makes him a bad role is not that he's a bad guy. It's that he's not fulfilling the tenets of being a Starfleet officer. He's slacking for his own ego, for fear, like but either fear to his, like you said, his position or just like some threat to the Federation. Right.
00:54:10
Speaker
Layton, Admiral Layton in Paradise Lost in the Deep Sea Sign. thing He's a villain, but he's doing it because he believes that the founders, the changelings are such a threat to our existence that we must take extreme measures to protect ourselves.
00:54:23
Speaker
That's understandable. Like, that's not like ah like a mustache twirl. He's not trying to punish people for going against him. He tries like make his case. He's like, don't you get it? This is the end of us if we don't stop them.
00:54:35
Speaker
And Sisko's like, we got to find another way. Like, this is not how it's supposed to be. So that is a more classic badmerele. And here it's just like, hmm. And fuck them. I hate it. It's such a stupid thing that they do that they do this every time.
00:54:51
Speaker
At least it's not the Paklid. You know what, Katie? You make an amazing point. Thank you. You make a fucking amazing point. It's only time.
00:55:05
Speaker
If I had to choose between this and the Paklids, I would pick this 12 times out of 10. I know you would. I knew I had to make that point. oh Okay. Any other left worst trick tropes?
00:55:18
Speaker
No, no, no. Okay, so I put the left-handed combat slap here and maybe I just did that as a mistake. It should be a best trick trope. They do a left-handed combat. I was like, wow. It's always cool. It's always cool. Fine.
00:55:29
Speaker
I put the classism. ah That should have been the cool label this whole time. I don't like that. I would say that actually this episode helped me strata, like find out what the strata of the California class is.
00:55:43
Speaker
Because to me, in my mind, there are so many classes of starships and so many starships out there. like And actually, not all of them are like starships in the way like that are the Excelsior, the Enterprise, whatever. And they there's Dr. Otana mentions an Oberth class. And there's ships that...
00:56:01
Speaker
are like tugboats or medical ships. They do different things. So this idea that the California class is like, it is a starship, but it doesn't it can't do the same missions as the Enterprise, so it doesn't. but What this episode kind of then positions them as is like, it's the Enterprise, it's the Cerritos, and then it's all the single function ships.
00:56:21
Speaker
And that was like a weird clarifying moment that I don't ah like, I'm like, does that jive? And it's like, I don't think we've ever heard it said. So we might as well just go with it, but it's like fine. And, but it's still an interesting, in that case, it's kind of like, why does Starfleet have that?
00:56:37
Speaker
you know what I mean? Like it just raises a whole other issue. And it's kind of one of those things that I think we we talk about a lot, especially with this show, is that like they're trying to make one to one of what's going on in our world right now and like the classism that we are seeing with...
00:56:55
Speaker
minimum wage workers that shouldn't be minimum wage you know um having to apply to a job when you have like and a master's degree and then getting paid minimum wage you know as a requirement it I feel like there is something one to one that they're trying to do with that in terms of the classism and like how it may change shape and form just on hierarchy of need But yeah, I know.
00:57:25
Speaker
It's, I think it's just appealing to tribalism to be perfectly honest. I think that's, I see that in a lot of fan responses to the show too. Interesting. You wear it as a badge of courage. Like one, my life, I'm a lower decker.
00:57:38
Speaker
And so here's and a thing like that. So I'm the Cerritos and maybe ah a Rivian driver. Notice how i did not say Tesla. You know, they're the enterprise. um Yeah. That kind of shit. I think that that's what it's really appealing to. Like,
00:57:57
Speaker
ah just to leave it at the writer level. You've got the writers who drive Priuses against the executives who drive more expensive cars, like that kind of thing.
00:58:08
Speaker
um And I don't know, it just falls flat for me every time. Now it's it's fun that they gang up on the new class of ship that's supposed to take over for them. Like if you're given those circumstances, that makes a lot of sense.
AI Concerns and Societal Reflections
00:58:22
Speaker
That's one of my other worst Trek tropes, warp travel times. yeah Now, the mission the mission race... seems to be playing out over a period of time. So I'm actually not, that's not the thing I'm quibbling about.
00:58:36
Speaker
It's could Mariner because they're watching it on the news and then they draw them all together very quickly. Again, the news, it's like, oh, I'm watching this attack on the news. I'm like, why is this on the news? Like this is like, it was very- Well, it's not just on the news. It's just like everybody knows about it apparently. Yeah, I guess so. That's another thing where it's like,
00:58:58
Speaker
They have Boimler sending a subspace message, getting Migly Moe's mom on on the screen. Oh, that's in the previous episode. ah but but um And it's like Boimler couldn't send a message to Mariner being like, hey, we could use some help here if you know how to...
00:59:15
Speaker
That's what i'm saying. Like there's a disc, it's a weird way that they bring it all together. Not that what, what happens, the final battle is bad, but just this kind of clunky in the warp travel times. I, it calls in into question suddenly of like, how's, when's this happening over?
00:59:30
Speaker
Is this all the same day? kind of seems to be the case. So I would just always put it there. Anyway, time dilation and everything is also not really addressed in Star Trek. I one more worst Trek trope. you have any more? Go for Go for it.
00:59:41
Speaker
Healthy competition. This is unhealthy competition. Yes, it is. ah So I think that's a there's a version of this where it's much more health. It's much healthier. Where Freeman is not existentially threatened by this.
00:59:55
Speaker
I don't know why she's existentially threatened. She's going to get a promotion. What is her cherishing of this, of this class of starship? What does it matter? i really, I'm like at a loss. i'm like, what does it matter?
01:00:07
Speaker
Oh, this is their home. That's like, they signed up for a vocation that necessarily takes them to just different places. This idea of this is your home. She should have said that. It shouldn't have been about the class. It should have been about the Cerritos if it was that important. That's what I'm saying. I think, but it's the classism still. like its Sure.
01:00:26
Speaker
Because she didn't become a captain of another ship. That's why she didn't go off the ship. She stayed with the Cerritos. so Especially the beginning of the season. Her coming up with this idea of like, wo we should do a race to see if it makes a lot of sense. And that was right, by the way. That is sort of that is one of my ah bad track tropes. It's like putting a competition. Yes. To validify...
01:00:50
Speaker
your existence. and like the Like the healthy competition version is yeah the admirals expressing skepticism and saying, we believe a field trial is in order here.
01:01:00
Speaker
Sure. And we will run these. it It'll be a concurrent experiment. Right. And, and both crews will do their peak. And like the fact that it's like, well, we should do this where it's presented as a race is where it gets very tricky for me. And you see it. And to me, what it does is it,
01:01:19
Speaker
cheapens life even though i think the idea that it hinges on the sanctity of life but when they show up to those planets and the planets are like we're so grateful you're here like yeah yeah yeah yeah we're not here for you we're here for ourselves that's very anti-star trek the star anti star fleet you're trying to make a good impression to these civilizations and you're like we got bigger fish to fry than you you assholes right here take our shit we're on our way right i don't know just something It doesn't fit. It's incongruous.
01:01:46
Speaker
And i don't think it's I don't think it's so fun. I think they address that when Tendi finds the microbial potential life form in this in the dust, in the dirt. It's because...
01:01:59
Speaker
I also think that this whole Alito thing, the AI ah you know taking their jobs, I feel like this was right around right before we had some writer's strikes, were like talks of moving towards that because ai was a big thing around this time and a lot of people were railing against it and still do. And you know there are still some factions of entertainment that are still on strike right now, by the way, ah the video game ah actors are still on strike and have been such.
01:02:28
Speaker
um So I think a lot of it was everyone's freaking out of like, how is AI going to take over? And what are we going to miss if we don't have human interaction within art or within Starfleet?
01:02:43
Speaker
You know, that's the thing that brings them all back. And that's luckily Freeman's final argument in order to say that we didn't really... loose. We actually won this because we have the human touch and that we need more time to be able to spend with all these different planets and all these different people to make sure that things are fine.
01:03:04
Speaker
i I agree. I think it's a little strange that just the way that it was presented. Sure. Like we are having to fill in what it is, but Freeman sitting there depressed and it's like you are, that's it. You, you are supposed to be one of the bravest, smartest people on the ship.
01:03:21
Speaker
Really the captain is. And, and it took Tendi saying something off to the side to like clue you in fine. But that's, Whatever. the The point is, is like this was unhealthy competition from the beginning. and i think Star Trek is better when when you have conflict and it's coming from a healthy place.
01:03:41
Speaker
Because Freeman could have just as easily said, I'm confident that... starfleet does it i Starfleet sees the value in it, but I think they'll see the value in having human crews once they see us ah like really under under the chest, under the gun, under pressure. like that's the best That's why human beings sign up for Starfleet.
01:04:02
Speaker
You know what I mean? It's to be the best version of themselves. That's why we're out here. And instead, she's just like, ah!
Season Reflections and Character Arcs
01:04:08
Speaker
You know what I mean? like every Every bit of stress that these... people meet, they react by freaking out and it's just like, okay, well.
01:04:15
Speaker
Would you perhaps call it cartoonish? That's correct. That's right, Katie. Put her out there. cosplayable character or moment?
01:04:28
Speaker
um i had the uh i don't remember what ship it was so i was trying to i was trying to look it up while we were talking and and it's the one where it's basically the same exact um uh deck as as the cerritos but they're all like flies or something oh yeaha yeah yeah yeah I can't remember what ship it is, but they' like it's like the same exact characters, but as flies.
01:04:52
Speaker
um I have the Galardonians. I want to see someone try to do the Galardonians. How do you think they would do that? I don't know. that big You'd have to really go big on it, though, to get the round head and the...
01:05:05
Speaker
the bright colors and the kind of sluggish movements that would be in that would be an intense one. The sluggish movement might be easily done. Yours is fun though because it's just the Starfleet uniforms and then fly faces.
01:05:17
Speaker
And then fly faces and red eyes and stuff. So that's probably the better one. Now it's time for the line. Mr. Joel. Great lines. okay um let me find mine real quick um i just what was the oh it came to me and i was like oh i haven't written this down um
01:05:34
Speaker
oh when they were talking about the brigadoon planet and then we we see the two the two siblings i guess like bickering over what they needed to do like you're not gonna see it it's just gonna be a dot in the sky um and then he just like waves and yeah the whole thing yeah I put the Alito AIs line that they say twice.
01:05:54
Speaker
I burned your heart in a fire, i which is pretty creepy and really effective. For both times it's used. yeah Shaxx, I've dreamed of doing this for so long.
01:06:09
Speaker
yeah just You just whispered. ah Yeah. um After all that, you're keeping the implant, Mariner says when she sees Rutherford finally.
01:06:22
Speaker
It robbed me of my memories and it was used to cover up deadly crimes. But it's so cool. I'm still finding submenus. I didn't know we're in there. yep That's one of my two. You gave me everything I've ever asked for.
01:06:35
Speaker
You're in the bear pack now. Are you my bridge buddy? Absolutely, baby bear. all bears shag spoiler rutherford yep How about the line must be drawn here. Great art.
01:06:50
Speaker
Once again, these, ah the, when all of the Cali class ships showed up, which I think we started with the Oakland, um but that I thought that was beautiful, like, especially because it's just that one ship, that one Alito, and then all of these Cali class ships are coming in and surrounding it.
01:07:08
Speaker
I thought that was great, especially when Mariner came in with ah her archaeologist ship. Yeah. Funded by Picard. Would this have been a fun holo novel to play out?
01:07:21
Speaker
Maybe parts of it. I'd say the final battle might have been fun. But um I mean, when is fighting an AI not the most fun you'll ever have? Yeah, I put yes. I think this would be fun. I am trying to think trying to think of the least fun version of it. I mean, if you're into Indiana Jones stuff, you've even got swinging on vines and running from Ferengi and all that stuff.
01:07:43
Speaker
ah What part of this will you teach at Starfleet Academy? How to not offend a bridge officer. I mean, that's the most sitcom thing. Like he's right behind me, isn't he? Like, it's just like, it is what I like. didn't hear the door open. Yeah.
01:08:02
Speaker
I put Tendi halting action to explore the life form reading that she got. That's ah no perfect procedure. Like that's what you do. And she says like, it could be sentient life, but you know, I think any kind of life really is what matters is like Star Trek two. They have, is it maybe it's something we could transplant, you know, it's like a microbe.
01:08:22
Speaker
So it's just, it's, I think it's really important. It's like a fundamental lesson to Starfleet. We value life in all forms. So yeah. and Slow down. That's right. Slow down. ah i think it's a very important part that AI...
01:08:36
Speaker
like even the technology, but also the rush to use the technology. It's like, let's stop and think about this. What are we doing? We're literally forgetting about life itself. Like we are in a rush for what purpose?
01:08:49
Speaker
Yeah. To get things faster and for profit, I guess, obviously. Obviously. But at the same time, you know, AI can be used as a tool when used properly, but doesn't mean that it's the end all be all for all these things.
01:09:06
Speaker
ah The drive to replace human beings is evil. So at least in that sense, that's why they probably felt they had to make the bad role even more upset. But the problem is the original series already did that in the ultimate computer where they came up with a replace humans. We don't need them on the ship.
01:09:23
Speaker
There's a whole, they've got an entire prison full of yeah evil AI. We have absolutely seen this theme a couple of times in a couple of different ways. But I do think it's interesting that we have a badmoral that creates this AI based on the code that is in Rutherford and in Badgie and is emotionally unstable per Rutherford.
01:09:46
Speaker
um And then it turns immediately on animalal Admiral Buenamigo. but amiga Yeah. Also, there's like there's no like tragic backstory that shows his motivation. That'd be another thing that they usually do to kind of build in why someone would do this. Like he's trying to preserve life, but he's willing to take out a whole ship of people he knows and all that stuff. It's like maybe he could have just been like.
01:10:08
Speaker
This is the very hacky version, but like my wife and kid were on a planet. That was, just you know, like we are trying to preserve life, whatever. But there was no motivation other than ego in the most frailest sense.
01:10:20
Speaker
And if that was trying to be a commentary, I think it fell short there. So we'll see how it affects my grade, but Trek, marry or kill the stars at night. I am a solid Trek. I was nearly a Mary on this. I really was. But I kind of thought you would be a Mary, but I was also of a solid Trek on this one. This like night and day with the one before it.
01:10:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think this episode did. um It set out to do very specific things, kind of like the previous one did, but it did them very well. Yeah. And even if I wasn't enamored with the, all the ships coalescing at the end, like for what ah i wasn't against it. i was just like, yeah, this is a payoff.
01:11:00
Speaker
Like this is all making sense. And it's almost like they had to get Mariner off the ship just so they could figure out how to get all the ships in. and So you had to work backwards from your concept of episode 10 to figure out what nine would be. And that's why I think nine is kind of weaker for it. But I think this is a satisfying conclusion to this mini arc, despite,
01:11:21
Speaker
buen amigo's turn coming so out of left field we have to admit we have to admit i mean i mean think about it he he even references when they were at um deep space nine and how he thought that they were going to mess that up and it was like oh he's been setting them up to fail for a while and they've obviously set him up as a character that can have this turn and all that from the very beginning and um yeah so ah Better than the Paklids, as you said. Better than the Paklids! So we we got that going! i i do I do enjoy this season. I feel like this season was ah what I was watching when we first started doing this podcast together. um or Doing the Lower Decks version of this podcast together.
01:12:04
Speaker
and i was like, oh, but it gets so good. like All of the different things and the pieces start to line up. and You get to see these long-lasting character arcs. that I feel like, especially and the future seasons, whether or not we cover it, dear listener, are really, really worth it.
01:12:21
Speaker
I am with you. I am surprised because I actually realized that I didn't, I stopped watching. So this has not been a rewatch so much as though going, except for the deep space nine one. yeah yes you watch of that one yeah I know that I know that but I had not watched most of the season. So I didn't really remember, like know anything about it and having rewatched.
01:12:44
Speaker
And in some cases adding in new episodes from one and two, I was surprised by how much this one kind of fell off for me. And I think that had a lot to do, I'm just to say it's COVID, which I think is an unheralded, like it's a not mean it's not utilized enough.
01:13:00
Speaker
They would never use it making the show. Why would they? You know, they did their best, the best they could. I think there were just things that were different about the season that I think are best explained by COVID. We even spotlighted some examples of when the animation seemed bad.
01:13:14
Speaker
know what I mean? like And so there's just a lot going on there.
Significant Moments and Season Comparisons
01:13:17
Speaker
Talin gets introduced at the end of this episode, we should mention. I can't believe we didn't even mention that, but like how great that Talin finally comes in. And so to to that and to your point, I mean, I did start watching the show again from season four on. Yes.
01:13:33
Speaker
And that is... and right Those are great. I mean, I think season four might be the best. It is. Season two is pretty great. Season four, I think, might be the best. ah It'll be interesting to rewatch that one.
01:13:45
Speaker
Season five is good. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just like... But season four kind of really hits it on the head and they finally have their core team that they focus around. And they it's a little bit more wrapped around their stories as opposed to getting away from Mariner or getting away from Boimler or having someone go off ship and do their own thing. I mean, they have some of that, especially with Tendi and Rutherford and little tiny moments. But it also Talyn.
01:14:09
Speaker
but good to Delin is amazing. And Delin is like, I think you even mentioned it before, just her like vocal emphasis is like such a good match with all of the different sounds and characters that we have around us.
01:14:24
Speaker
It's a nice energy. And i'm I'm glad I've gone back and watched this. i When we started Trek, Marry, Kill, the biggest criticism we got was sort of like I was sidelining all the animated stuff.
01:14:35
Speaker
the shows. And, and obviously that was because I didn't feel like we could give them the same. We know Gene Ronberry's Picadillos. We know Rick Berman and Michael Piller. They've talked about a lot.
01:14:47
Speaker
We could see it play out in live action and how it, the all alchemy of, Well, Gates McFadden was being harassed or treated shittily. How does that out with performance? Oh, it doesn't. But this she had this to say about the behind the scenes. How did that change the story we saw?
01:15:00
Speaker
Like, it's just different when you get 200 people together to make something that's in that's people. Animation has such control over it. That doesn't mean that none of that stuff happens. It's just we're less privy to it.
01:15:13
Speaker
and and sometimes And it's also at the same time easier to maintain a consistent product. Because it has to look the same basically every episode. And it also gives way to redeem some people who had terrible experiences on the actual live action shows. yes there's that. come back, which I know, you know, we both know about the end of this series and like certain characters that pop up and how cool it is that they kind of have a redemption for said poor experiences.
01:15:44
Speaker
Yeah. So to just to the bigger point, though, like, so to me, it was harder to wrap my head around. How are we going to do a show that delves deep into the background to like use that to judge the episode? That to me is like, I think it's perfectly normal that people I don't believe in death of the author. I've never, ever, ever believed in that, especially if we can know the author's intention that should sit side by side with our reaction to it.
01:16:07
Speaker
Sure. and sometimes sometimes. We can ignore it or it can influence it. It can adjust it. it It might help us understand it better if we're like, why would why did they do that? What was that all about? And then we could be like, oh, that was their intention.
01:16:18
Speaker
i didn't grok it. didn't jive with it, but I see what they're going for now. and And maybe you dislike it less or maybe you like it, whatever. And it's trickier with animation has been my ah ah my experience. and But going back and watching Prodigy and watching Lower Decks and kind of being in a lens once I could figure out a format and then actually, again, just conscripting you into the podcast military. I'm like, what if I sat down next to someone who whose religion was Lower Decks?
01:16:50
Speaker
yeah what would happen what would that welcome to katie and exactly and uh and so i think it's been very valuable in terms of like i mean i haven't let up no of course not in terms of like what i don't like but it's you are stalwart if nothing else and that's okay it's actually kind of fun when i get you to lean a little bit further one way towards my direction and not because it's like okay i am making some salient points You
Spirit of Star Trek and Writing Challenges
01:17:17
Speaker
always have. your Your enthusiasm is not some like vapid nonsense. It's just like people enjoying the show is what it's all about at the end of the day. I'm just saying for a show that started with we are picking up the mantle and ah ah how the show was pitched to me when I was not watching it from the beginning.
01:17:35
Speaker
And a lot of friends I have were like, oh, this is the spirit of Star Trek. ah To me, that's a big deal if someone's giving that the recommendation. So then I go and I go, well, how is it upholding the the yeah the spirit of Star Trek? I criticize Enterprise where it's like it is trying to use the spirit of Star Trek as we understand it, but also with the like a Max Magazine dude bro sheen over it. And sometimes that works like it never works, but it's like sometimes they're able to kind of like cast that off and do their own thing.
01:18:06
Speaker
And this being like, what if a bunch of UCB and L.A. comedy people wrote Star Trek? I'm like that. I understand why people find that an interesting premise. But I think you add Star Trek to something. It's not something that you can.
01:18:20
Speaker
And we've agreed many times when it's been a cartoon and it's not violated Star Trek, but it's like, well, what are you gaining? Why is Mariner yawning in a briefing? What is the value of that?
01:18:32
Speaker
And then there is no value beyond it helps us get from a to B fastest. Yeah. and And so that to me has always been the thing I've deemed for the show, because there are times when they take their time and it's like, wow, when they take their time, they really pay it off.
01:18:46
Speaker
They really do accomplish. They thread the needle. It's a hard Star Trek. Star Trek is a hard show to write no matter what the the medium. or the format of it and i think that this a even harder show to write because of all the reasons we pointed out you so yeah there we go but you know what i couldn't have done this without you katie i really appreciate you bringing me on for so many of these and i really appreciate you sticking it out for the journey because i know some some stuff was hard but i know i saw it i recognized it and you had some really great points about that too
01:19:20
Speaker
ah Well, you've kept me honest. You've brought a light to the show whenever I, but I provided some shading. yes you did. But I think it's been a great experiment in how we could do these animated spotlights. We ported it over for Star Trek Picard season one because...
01:19:36
Speaker
It turns out when you're doing season-long arcs, there there's a lot of episodes where a lot of it is just filler to just kind of like check in on characters. It doesn't advance story. So having done these, where I feel like we do really do cover the whole episode in some way through the format.
01:19:53
Speaker
It's very helpful for that. So I appreciate it. Again, your joy. and there's one thing I can say about Katie Hampton, besides very funny, very
Promotional Segment for Katie Hampton
01:20:02
Speaker
hilarious. So if you're looking to populate your room or you need um you know a guest spot to pop up and pay her when appears on camera, obviously, Katie Hampton, keep that name in mind um and check out her podcast, which is in where?
01:20:18
Speaker
um I am on actually several podcasts now thanks to the Geekscape Network, but you can always find me over there. i am on Napping Through Happy Hour where we talk real life, real drama all in real time. I'm also on Christian Cringe where we talk about the late 90s, early 2000s content of the Christian community and whether or not it is cringe.
01:20:38
Speaker
I'm also on Internet Supreme Court every Thursday live at 4 p.m. Pacific Standard Time, 7 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. where we judge memes and do a lot of really stupid bits.
01:20:51
Speaker
And then at the very end of the week, I am usually found on What Won the Week, where we talk about no more news and all the crazy stuff, but the stuff that won for us for the week. So if you want some nice positivity in your life, check that out on Fridays around 1 p.m. PST on the Geekscape Network.
01:21:10
Speaker
So there's a Katie Hampton all around you if you have the eyes to see it and the ears to listen. It's true. but Just follow me at at ElsassiPants. I'm everywhere, guys. We're Trek Mary K-Pod on social media, trekmerrykillpod.com on the web where you can see all of our standings. This is wrapping up our Star Trek monthly animated spotlight for season three.
01:21:32
Speaker
And thank you for listening. TMK out. Excelsior.