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DS9: "The Visitor" (s4e2)
144 Plays8 days ago
THE RUBBERBAND MAN. Bryan and Shereese commiserate over dead dads and her first time watching a classic episode of Deep Space Nine as THE CAPTAIN IS DEAD! Month continues. The grades begin at (32:34)
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Visitor' and Podcast Theme
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek, Marry, Kill. Bans. Anchors. Death. Energize. freak accident freezes Cisco in time. No! No!
00:00:12
Speaker
Now his son begins a lifelong obsession. You're older than I am. To save his father. We're trying to rescue him. Let go, Jake. But to bring him back to reality.
00:00:24
Speaker
They're being pulled into subspace. Could take Jake his entire life. Jake, what's happened to you?
00:00:32
Speaker
On an all-new episode of Star Trek Deep Space Nine.
00:00:40
Speaker
Trek, marry, kill.
00:00:46
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. I'm Sharice. Welcome to Trek, Mary, Kill Star Trek podcast that came out to generally favorable reviews. It's been about two and a half years now that we've been jumping around this franchise. And that's thanks in part to my obsession with doing theme months.
00:01:00
Speaker
And this month is no exception, Sharice. It's the Captain is Dead month here on Trek, Mary, Kill. That's hilarious. We kick things off with Tapestry from The Next Generation, ah then the Tholian Web from the original series.
00:01:16
Speaker
And this week, it's my genuine pleasure to introduce Sharice to Deep Space Nine's The Visitor, as i so I suspect this is the first time you've ever seen this episode. You suspect correctly. um This was the first time I've ever seen this episode.
00:01:29
Speaker
And spoiler alert, I loved it. was like, wow, okay. Although, and once again, like I said, in a previous DS9 episode, maybe I would have loved it even more if I had ah like an emotional connection to these characters. But even without that, i yeah, like if I was like, oh, this person's like this, and that's why this is significant.
00:01:48
Speaker
However, I still liked it just as a story.
Personal Resonance and Emotional Impact
00:01:50
Speaker
I think it was great. So yes, if if you're unfamiliar, Sharice is, she knows what Deep Space Nine is. She's watched some of the first season and she's watching more of it in part because of doing this podcast, but she's going to get to it. She's going to get to it. Yes, it's on the list.
00:02:04
Speaker
We record these episodes in bunches. And so it was actually only last week that Sharice and I recorded Far Beyond the Stars, which that would she watched that before The Visitor. I know I'm i'm weird. I promise, though, Sharice, I did not plan it so that you get probably the two most famous Deep Space Nine episodes back to back.
00:02:20
Speaker
um You know, in retrospect, because i wrote that in the rundown, maybe it's a a top four. Because ah Trials and Tribulations, the episode where they actually jump back into the Trouble with Tribbles episode, is probably Deep Space Nine's most famous episode.
00:02:32
Speaker
But Far Beyond the Stars and The Visitor are right up there. um So I didn't plan it that way. It just kind of worked out that way. Yeah, that's great. So when people reference it, I'll be like, I've seen that one. See that one. ah The Visitor is the second episode of Star Trek Deep Space Nine's fourth season.
00:02:50
Speaker
Do not be lulled into the sense of because the way of the warrior, the season premiere was a two parter that that is two episodes. No, no, that might have counted for two production episodes, but it was one episode that was eventually broken up into two parts. But anyway, this was the second episode of the season.
00:03:07
Speaker
It premiered on syn in syndication October 9th, 1995. So we're a little less than six months out from this episode's 30th anniversary, believe it or not, which yikes.
00:03:18
Speaker
Happy anniversary. Yeah. It was written by Michael Taylor, directed by David Livingston. Memory Alpha describes it after an accident in the engine room of the Defiant apparently claims the life of Benjamin Sisko.
00:03:30
Speaker
Jake lives out his life in an endless quest to locate his father. that what we all wind up doing, Memory Alpha? Anyway, what Memory Alpha is not telling us is that this episode talks about the misery of being a writer and also how getting to our fathers is kind of a lifelong quest or something.
00:03:46
Speaker
ah We see Jake Sisko grow into an old man over the course of the episode and transition from actor Siric Lofton to Tony Todd, Star Trek favorite, beloved Star Trek guest star, Tony Todd.
00:03:58
Speaker
Rest in peace. um Yeah, let's... Jump through some real stuff before getting into the grades. Real dead dad stuff. Like that's what this episode is kind about. My dad died when I was 10. I've said this before.
00:04:09
Speaker
i admit that this episode has never quite resonated with me for it in terms of that. Mainly because it's like mine died a little too early for me to have had. any sort of meaningful relationship with him.
00:04:22
Speaker
ah But I certainly have lost people I care about very deeply over the years. And it's that emotional baggage that gets brought to the surface. Whenever I watch this one, people who care about me, who I care about,
00:04:34
Speaker
have passed on.
Jake Sisko's Journey and Tony Todd's Performance
00:04:36
Speaker
and And so that's what resonates. ah But there's this idea that comes through it that somehow we never really know our fathers and Jake is, is a mess without him. And certainly I can understand it from that experience.
00:04:47
Speaker
No, no gotcha questions here, Cherie. So I was just like, just want to talk about one of those things. Like if you have lost a parent, ah this episode obviously must be very powerful. And if you're a parent, I'm sure that it also must be very powerful. Maybe I will find that out one of these days, but I think that's why it resonates with a lot of people.
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, I also lost my dad when I was 10. And um this this episode really resonated with me, though, because I was i was definitely a daddy's girl. um I wasn't wow i wasn't as as tight with my mom. um We have a lot of women in our family, like kind of too many, and a very ah a very extremely small percentage of male influence.
00:05:25
Speaker
So I was super close with my dad. um And this this definitely resonated a lot. Also, the thought of like, like seeing him disappear before my eyes and how traumatic that would be my sister actually did see him die and so now she's unfortunately totally crazy i did not however seeing this through jake's eyes i'm like yep that tracks like that's the kind of thing that it's really hard to that you know um melanie the the woman in this episode who i just call rando the rando um she was like
00:05:57
Speaker
wow, like, I don't think I could ever get over something like that. And he was like, well, people do time passes, you move on. And she's like, Oh, is that what happened to you? And he's like, No, it's like, exactly. No, like, no, time heals all wounds, except for stuff like this.
00:06:09
Speaker
So yeah, this episode really resonated with me as a daddy's girl who lost her father young, but I think you know even had I not lost him, had he still been alive today, I think this still would have resonated. Just that idea of like someone you love is gone and now you are, and it's hard for you to kind of grieve that loss. And then you find out they're not gone at all. They're trapped.
00:06:29
Speaker
That's a totally different... I mean, that's kind of like those people who who lose their kids and their kids get kidnapped. So they don't know if their kids are alive or dead. You can't grieve. You can't grieve because you don't know what's going on. And then they come back 10 years later and then you find them and it's like,
00:06:43
Speaker
You feel guilty if you moved on or you feel like your life has been on pause for 10 years because you didn't move on. It's just a really messy situation. So I like that they really tease that out in this episode that like he couldn't move on.
00:06:55
Speaker
He like ah like he could not grieve. He could not move on. He knows his dad is trapped. Now he's got to go find him. So I think even without losing a loved one, there's a lot of resonance with being in a hopeless situation and doing whatever it takes because there's someone you love who needs you.
00:07:09
Speaker
kind of like an emotional the emotional stakes of star trek problems like what if you were really caught in a time loop or connected to someone through a subspace wonkiness you know what was space rubber band yeah that's right what's the emotional fallout of that yeah it's guys it's very stressful when you're in a star trek situation yeah It can be really sad, but also really stressful.
00:07:37
Speaker
but But so many times it ends with a reset button. So it's not that bad. that's Most of the times it's not that bad. this one Sometimes your shuttle explodes and then that's unfortunate. but An all timer reset button where it's like, ah what if I just ah off myself?
00:07:52
Speaker
so So ah you mentioned that. Well, I'm sorry to hear about your father, actually. I'm sorry hear about yours as well. Okay. Dead Dad's Club. We are dead dad twins, which is like not the kind of twinning you want to do, but it happens. No, no, no, Yeah, that's right.
00:08:08
Speaker
um This episode is also a it was all a dream
Inspiration from Real Life and Character Dynamics
00:08:11
Speaker
story in a way, wrapped in this time loop adjacent story, which usually means a show has run out of ideas. But this is also, you have to also think about like,
00:08:22
Speaker
unlike the newer shows, ah which are always struggling with the weight of the entire franchise, Deep Space Nine was also kind of struggling with that of like, what's, we have so many episodes to do in this season.
00:08:39
Speaker
What can we do gonna, it's like, what gimmick could we use and not make it feel cheap? and And I think centering it on Jake, Although the episode's ending kind of makes it go this is a weird, actually, Cisco episode. right It's very- only a Cisco episode because Jake un-Jakes himself at the end.
00:09:03
Speaker
Otherwise, it would have been a Jake. Like, if Jake had any memory of what happened, then it would have still been a Jake episode. But he couldn't because there was no future Jake anymore. right. That's right. Although I really like how they did the it's a dream, because really, it's a it's a time loop.
00:09:16
Speaker
So it wasn't just like I woke up and oh, that was just because what I thought it was going to be was one of Jake's stories. Like I i was going to end with Jake being like the end. Wow, what a sad story like that would have I think, like, that's exactly what I was expecting. And I think that would have been a cheaper ending.
00:09:30
Speaker
Don't get me wrong. would have liked the that episode. um But the fact that it actually was like a time loop dream, like it happened, but it was an alternate reality that now has been undone because temporal prime directive.
00:09:42
Speaker
It's like, I appreciate that because now it's real and now it's meaningful and now it's impactful and now it has lasting effects. And now it's at least one character, you know, and if Cisco ever tells anyone, perhaps other characters can learn and grow from this moment, which you never get in actual dreams.
00:09:57
Speaker
Yeah. They're always just like, how interesting. What a dream. That's weird. You know, and it's like, it doesn't really mean anything. And I feel like that's important for Deep Space Nine because it's a serial. Eventually it becomes a serial.
Cultural Themes and Representation
00:10:09
Speaker
Eventually, yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, absolutely. That's a great point. And also to that point of...
00:10:15
Speaker
what you're glad they didn't do. That is what a traditional dream story would be. this The framing of it is like Jake's writing a story on the defiant when something real happens. Right. And so you can imagine him then going like, I took what might've been and I wrote a story about it. And that's what we'll find out. And that was my very first story that ever got published or something like that.
00:10:33
Speaker
And think that's a great point. That is what most shows do. Deep Space Nine is not like most shows. um And, but to that point, the emotional arc is sort of, I mean, it's a it's not a reward. It's sort of like, this is what could happen if you stop caring about your son. Like, Ben Sisko's never going to stop caring about his son.
00:10:52
Speaker
But it's kind of like this thing of, like, how important am I to this person? sometimes Maybe it's like a good reminder of, like, you are the captain of the space station. You're the emissary to the prophets.
00:11:03
Speaker
You mean a lot to Starfleet and the Bajoran people. But to this one person, to your son, you mean everything. right to And then I think that's an important sort of reframe. Not a reframe.
00:11:14
Speaker
don't think it's that intentional. Because he didn't lose the frame yet. They're not hitting it hard. And I also think that because the episode starts with with Cisco being like, Jake, you got to poke your head up and live. Like, come on, put the book down. Like, you got to experience life.
00:11:27
Speaker
And then he's gotten to see what Jake's life could look like. if he gets obsessed on one thing, you know, be it writing or recovering his dad from a subspace shard or whatever. That's right. Like he, he still missed life. Like one way or another, this is Jake's personality type. Like he still got obsessed and missed life.
00:11:44
Speaker
And i feel like for Cisco, it's more of a like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad that I get to spend this time with him. Because every time he reappeared, he was like, let's just spend time together. when We only have like 60 seconds, please. Let's just spend to time time together. And then he disappears. Right. So I think part of it is like, wow, I get to spend this time with him again.
00:11:57
Speaker
And maybe another part is reinforcing to him how important it is for him to keep hammering to Jake, like, do not get obsessed with it with anything such that you miss out on life, because I've seen what that could do for you.
00:12:08
Speaker
And it doesn't, it's not good. It's not what I want for you. It's not a happy life. That's why I said this episode is also about the misery of being a writer.
00:12:18
Speaker
Although apparently he was very good. Oh, sure. don't know inspire a stalker. Nobody likes to write, but they love having written. And, ah but also just what it does to your life, the lifestyle you have to have to accommodate this obsession.
00:12:33
Speaker
Absolutely. I think that's all kind of baked in there too. ah You did mention the this stalker or fan Melanie. That is the framing of the episode is this woman comes to the door and there's an inspiration for that, which we'll touch on in a minute.
00:12:46
Speaker
But before we do that, I do want to take a moment to talk about one of my favorite Star Trek guest stars, Tony Todd, who passed away late last year. a meaningful figure in Star Trek history, I think, not just because he plays older Jake Sisko here in The Visitor, deepea one of Deep Space Nine's most famous episodes and one of the most popular episodes in the history of the franchise, but also he was Worf's brother, Kern. And I think that's also very important because i've I've plotted it out. You could do six months of Trek, Marry, Kill just focusing on Worf's whole arc as a Klingon. Now, obviously, there are ah other episodes that are about Worf, but they're not about his Klingon nature. But like every time Kern appears, it's really powerful and very meaningful.
00:13:33
Speaker
Yeah. And it's always such a good juxtaposition. Yes. Because there's that there's that scene where Kern and Worf are like in the bar on Kronos. Yeah. Or, like you know, in some canteen or whatever. And everyone's like fighting and laughing or whatever. And Worf is all stiff. And he's like, we were just fighting those guys yesterday. Didn't that guy shoot at us?
00:13:51
Speaker
And Kern is like, yeah, but that was the battlefield. This is the bar. We all drink together. And then we're going to go fight later. Right. He's like, hey, to your health. You know, I hope we die in battle. I hope you die in battle. Cheers. You know, and it's just like stuff like that where you're like oh, not all Klingons are the same. And like there's even a richer cultural history and heritage. And like you don't have to be so stiff and serious and all of this.
00:14:12
Speaker
Kern brought that, like brought a whole nother level to the culture, the Klingon culture that we didn't see just through the eyes of Worf, which was really cool. Like not just the juxtaposition with Worf.
00:14:25
Speaker
I think his style, his energy, his when he came on, it wasn't just this the show didn't stop because here is important actor doing important work.
00:14:36
Speaker
He simply elevated the genre. like He's a very famous genre actor like in in a lot of sci-fi stuff. He was also in The Rock, though. He has a really good energy. i think He was Candyman. That's all will ever remember him as.
00:14:50
Speaker
Every time I see him, I'm like, oh... The new Candyman I watch with my arms crossed. I'm like, there's no Tony Todd in this. And then they do a CGI version of him at the end. And i was like, okay, that's fine. I'm glad you did that because that's Candyman.
00:15:05
Speaker
You finally, at the end of a 90 minute movie, you put Candyman in the movie. The real Candyman in the movie, yeah. If you have not seen Candyman, by the way, if you're listening to this and you haven't seen Candyman and you like kind of like...
00:15:16
Speaker
Creepy, creepy yeah teeny teeny bopper kind of things. it's It's the thing to watch. It's creepy and it will give you nightmares and you will not want to go into your bathroom alone. least that was my experience when I watched it It's a proto the ring, like think of the ring and then just cause anyway, so you mean the American version of the ring, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Cause the Japanese version terrifying.
00:15:39
Speaker
Yeah. Well, the American version is terrifying too. The rings, but I would say that the same general energy, just the, the background, the background motivating the horror is, is tied in there too. Um,
00:15:52
Speaker
But all right, so let's get into memory alpha notes before we hit the grades. I did not consult my Star Trek companion in this one just because I do that every time. But anyway, writer Michael Taylor based the concept of a fan visiting a reclusive writer who hasn't published in years on the famous 1980 interview given by J.D. Salinger to a high school student who simply turned up at his door.
00:16:15
Speaker
Did not go back and read that interview for this one. ah But Catcher in the Rye, did you read that in high school? I did read that in high school. I can't imagine wanting to go find J.D. Salinger. um It's one of those, isn't that like the Unabomber book or whatever? Is that the book where it's like all the disaffected youth like rally behind that book?
00:16:36
Speaker
I think it's a great book, but I mean, again, I think they're missing it. think it's bummer. It is, but I i don't think it's about me. Lord of the Flies. It's like one of those, like, why are these classics? These books are all so tragic and make me just think that humanity is the worst.
00:16:51
Speaker
This is what you want us to go into the world believing? Oh, no. Anyways. So, okay. This high school student went and looked him up and I didn't, I don't have any other information of than that. Just like that was not the hook for that. Yeah. That's great. How did they find them? That's especially back in 1980. This is before the internet knew where everybody was.
00:17:06
Speaker
I know, but I also just like the, well, I'm i'm just going assume that this is all New York shit. Like when you live in New York, like somehow you talk to the right Everyone just knows. Your butcher's like, oh yeah. Like they had their book out while they were reading. Like my but my butcher says he sees him every so often. And then he's like, oh, I'll go talk to this butcher and see if he knows.
00:17:30
Speaker
Oh, yeah. J.D. Salinger, he lives up at 83rd Street. That's that that's how I imagine it went. I'm going to go read the story after and see how it is. Anyway, if I weigh up the market, it'll be fun.
00:17:41
Speaker
So be a fun document of my feeling. um ah But also, I just was sort of like thinking that this is actually a good thing for television and Star Trek. is if not finding a real life parallel to an idea, being inspired by something that really happened to get into a story because you're not just making a copy of a copy. You're not just doing, well, in other Star Treks, they've done this Star Trek idea.
00:18:07
Speaker
You're just taking this idea of like, here's a real thing that happened. What's the Star Trek version of this idea? You're not just like a naked time, naked now. Let's just keep doing this. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. that's right But it's like, you know what? that's what um That's what Law & Order always does is they just take whatever on the news and then they just make it an episode, which is, which you watch the episode, you're like, I swear I just saw this somewhere.
00:18:31
Speaker
wheres It was literally on the news two weeks ago. yeah And now it is an episode. And it makes sense, though, because it's like they don't necessarily have to think of whole new crimes that have never existed. They could just take a story and then...
00:18:44
Speaker
turn it into more of a fantastical episode, which, you know, it's really interesting because who would think of that for Star Trek? Because it seems like, you know, space aliens and laser beams and, and phasers and stuff. But I, yeah, I agree with you that taking things from real life makes sense and start Trek-ifying it.
00:19:01
Speaker
And that's what they were doing as far back as the original series. They would take topics of the day, which is what Law & Order also does in CSI. You know, Star Trek would be like, you know the original series, though, got to do with stuff like people learning about you can do trans body organ transplants as like new ideas. Yeah.
00:19:18
Speaker
And playing off of that. And now it's just like, there are sexual predators. Remember at the turn of the century, a lot of the crime shows are like, yeah there are sexual predators online and they'll find your children. yeah Keep them offline.
00:19:31
Speaker
Yeah. It was like right after the stranger danger. Yeah. It was like every, if yeah, if you, if a child ever goes online, we're going to be like kidnapped by some pervert on the street corner. That was all the rage.
00:19:42
Speaker
And strange new worlds. The first episode kind of touches on this. It's like cable news. It's creating a factions. and people fighting against each other. and ah we should, we should get over those divisions. Otherwise we'll have world war three is kind of, it gets about as that, that far. But other than that,
Real-Life Inspirations in Star Trek
00:19:59
Speaker
I think, and discovery was tough. we We've talked about the season five of discovery where they jumped so far into the future, but it's sort of like, and the serialization aspect, I think they kind of lose track of what you, what kind of stories you can tell, even though they're set in the future, lower decks telling a lot of star Trek style stories, you know,
00:20:18
Speaker
Again, what is real is kind of sometimes lost because if you find a real idea, you can find a real emotion. And how do you play on that? I kind of think the fandom part of this episode is not as strong as the father son thing, but as a buttress to it, it actually works really well because it's like, I'm such a fan of your work.
00:20:39
Speaker
And then you find out there's like a real deep seated thing going on here. that's like leading that's lending itself to the entire affair. yeah um i think it's like she stumbled onto quite a story.
00:20:51
Speaker
it was a good It was a good introduction to this whole story. like Sitting by the fireplace, let me tell you a story. This was a good in. Yep. ah So Melanie, that actress, was named is named Rachel Robinson.
00:21:03
Speaker
ah The fans might already know this, but just in case you don't, that is the daughter of Andrew Robinson, who is, of course, the one and only Garrick. They put Tony Todd in the episode because they realized that they weren't going to be able to age up Siric Lofton to appear to be in the seventy s um Shockingly. Yeah. He revealed that when filming the episode, he was mourning his aunt who raised him as a child and had died only three months before.
00:21:30
Speaker
He said, the script got me out of my shell. It's like she was whispering to me, go back to work. Doing this was as close to heaven as I can imagine. And then he actually would play Kern again later in this fourth season. So then he said of that, I really felt blessed that i was able to do two different roles on Star Trek Deep Space Nine this year, which where may or may not be a small feat.
00:21:50
Speaker
I think so. I can't. I mean, other than Jeffrey Combs, who's almost always playing a mustache twirling villain. um I think this is a pretty, these are both good guys though. Kern is a good guy. Jake is a good guy. So it's a little bit different, but a lot of emotional weight. I kind of want you to go and watch the sons of Moog later on his season four episode with Worf, because you won't need the context of,
00:22:15
Speaker
Anything else? You won't really need the context. You know who Kern is. and And he explains what he's doing there. So it's like so it's a pretty intense episode, though. It's a very intense episode. Anyway, ah Jake actually begins to write Anselm, the novel that Melanie is referencing under Onaya's influence later in season four in the episode The Muse.
00:22:37
Speaker
This episode introduces Major Kira's new costume, which is a more slender profile with reduced shoulder pads, mainly. And she starts wearing high heels, which I have only noticed in my the last three or four years rewatching the show, being like, why did they put a freedom fighter in high heels?
00:22:54
Speaker
Yeah. Going back to like law and order and stuff, the female characters always wear heels. And I'm like, they're chasing bad guys. Like it's terrifying. It's I can't walk in heels and I'm always afraid of turning my ankle.
00:23:06
Speaker
So to see actresses running in heels, I'm like, whew, you have a lot of practice and a lot of faith. According to costume designer Robert Blackman, the new outfit was, quote, more body conscious.
00:23:19
Speaker
ah Actress and a non-visitor appreciated the change as the previous uniform had made it more difficult to move. That's interesting. ah However, Ira Bear, ah the showrunner, recalled that some fans on the Internet accused the producers of trying to turn Kira into a, quote, Fae Watch Babe.
00:23:34
Speaker
and i like the throwback bay wide know An idea that he strenuously denied. And let's be clear. The not visitor is a beautiful woman. So, I mean, great. I actually think I'm actually a big proponent, not, and not for the guys, but I do think like film is a really good way to freeze a moment in time. When you looked really hot, I will always think of the movie flash dance and like, okay, Jennifer Beals,
00:24:02
Speaker
Well, there are very few people who look like she did in that movie and that movie will exist forever and she will look like that. um I kind of think when you look really good, you might as well make sure you have movies that capture it. there Absolutely.
00:24:15
Speaker
Like that is as hot as I've ever looked and it's right there on film and millions of people saw it and we'll see it. Yep.
Avery Brooks on Father-Son Relationships
00:24:22
Speaker
That's an interesting way to look at it. Yeah. Well, kind of the reason why people go to the movies or watch TV to watch pretty people doing stuff. It's one of the draws.
00:24:32
Speaker
And even people with interesting faces who are character actors, quote unquote, you know, there is an attractiveness to confidence that comes from that. If you're not conventionally attractive, let's say. um Anyway, that's just my own.
00:24:45
Speaker
Doing this of like, so not the but again, not porn. I'm not talking about when they like do it where it's like clearly gross, but just sometimes it's like, I look great and let's get it on film.
00:24:58
Speaker
According to most of the of the staff on the show, this is one of the Star Trek, one of the best Star Trek Deep Space Nine episodes they worked on. Avery Brooks and Sirach Loftin cite this as one of their favorite episodes. Along with Far Beyond the Stars, director David Livingston says simply, The visitor is the best piece of material I've ever been able to direct in terms of the script.
00:25:18
Speaker
Avery Brooks sees this episode as an important milestone in the manner in which American TV depicts non-white families. Speaking of the relationship between Sisko and his son, Jake, Brooks says, I'm glad that relationship is there.
00:25:29
Speaker
It is, even in the most naive mind, a sin of omission that we have not looked at the sight of people raising their children in other television shows. and having some cultural resonance other than that of white Americans.
00:25:41
Speaker
It's something that we have to see more often, the relationship of a brown man and his son, because historically that's not how it began in this country for brown families who didn't have the freedom of their own will and volition, let alone the ability to hold their families together.
00:25:55
Speaker
This is something that Avery Brooks was really into from the beginning of the show. He's like, if Cisco is going to have a son, then he's going to be a good dad. That's what I want. not going to Warfman Alexander. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah.
00:26:07
Speaker
ah And I remember just reading just comments on social media as sort of like, you know, other than like black sitcoms of the seventies and the nineties, basically once the turn of the century hit, you kind of see, know,
00:26:23
Speaker
black families ah consigned to own or BET. And it's just like, it gets out of the mainstream and ah in a really, really bad way. And I think that's true. I'm trying to think like, yeah, blackish that kind of, that kind of made it through, but it's like very rare that you see a portrayal of a hell, know, modern family did not, there wasn't very blackish was the response to that effectively. And other than that,
00:26:50
Speaker
There's not really been dramas ah that American mainstream audiences the take on. I wouldn't say in fairness, but I would say, but I guess the, what are the families that we do see on TV these days, white or otherwise? And it's like, you got Mad Men and Game of Thrones and Succession.
00:27:08
Speaker
And you know what I mean? You got some really fucked up and twisted families. So maybe the American psyche regarding the concept of families is pretty skewed right now. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty common for um for African Americans in this country to carve out a space where they can be seen and heard because they're not being seen and heard on mainstream.
00:27:27
Speaker
So... the And then the backlash is like, well, you're just like keeping to yourself in that little bubble or whatever. And it's like, this is the only bubble where we're all allowed to express ourselves without being yeah severely edited and whitewashed and turned into something completely different.
00:27:44
Speaker
So that it's accepted by of like the um everything we were talking about with far beyond the stars, where it's like, yes, this is a great sci-fi story you've written. Just make the character white.
00:27:54
Speaker
And that's
Family Portrayals in Star Trek Series
00:27:55
Speaker
going to be better. You know what was just like? But it's a sci-fi story. It's not, it has nothing to do with what we're talking about right now. And he was like, well, people just couldn't possibly accept it, you know? And so, um yeah, I, and I, I'm glad that Avery book Brooks took that line because Worf's example was terrible.
00:28:11
Speaker
But also, i mean, not saying that he's, yes, he's a Black man, but the actor, it's the the character itself is just a it's just a brown alien. um However, it's just nice to see a healthy parent-child relationship, which is something that we don't we don't see too many children Star Trek because it's not really necessarily for kids.
00:28:29
Speaker
But when we do see them, we don't necessarily see a really great, healthy, strong relationship between parent and child. Like Wesley and Beverly were like friends. There wasn't really a parent-child relationship there.
00:28:39
Speaker
Naomi Wildman, we saw her mother twice. Her mother was always off doing whatever she was doing. Naomi was raised by Neelix, okay? Like, she we didn't see any, like, close bond between them.
00:28:51
Speaker
you know what I mean? And so, um yeah, can't think Naomi Wildman's like, i was six. And Neelix was like, that's a little older for my taste, but we'll go with it. Ha ha ha ha ah I'm more i american into two year olds. But yeah, so we don't really, we don't really see, i mean, the closest thing that I can think of off top my head is maybe seven in Icheb.
00:29:15
Speaker
um But that's like a mentorship relationship more so like, you know, mentorship that maybe adopted family, chosen family. She was a better mother to one. but she perhaps she was um so but yeah this is just it's really nice to see that there is a connection and that this character is like a real character in the show remember the episode in season one of tng where all the kids are kidnapped yes and all the parents are like how unfortunate well right but also like those parent relationships all of them are like oh i have a fucking stupid kid that's Captain, can we get my kid back, I guess?
00:29:54
Speaker
And they're all just like, so what are you going to to get the kids back? know. And Kevin Picard's like, are you sure you want to get them back? Counselor, need to get them back? He's like, I don't want these kids on the ship in the first place.
00:30:07
Speaker
So I'm happy with how this turned out. Only Dr. Crusher's like, I want my kid back. And Picard's like, I guess if Dr. Crusher wants her back. We need that kid back. That kid is saving our ship every single week. That's right. We need
Analysis of 'The Visitor' and Star Trek Tropes
00:30:20
Speaker
that kid.
00:30:22
Speaker
Shoot. Otherwise we'd be sucked into a vortex or hit by an asteroid or something. We need that kid going back in time or forward in time or into a place where thought becomes real. We need this kid.
00:30:33
Speaker
When ah a Riker's like, he helps me pick up women when they see I'm being nice to him. So can we get this guy back? There are no puppies on the ship. so that's I got to use this one.
00:30:44
Speaker
ah This episode was nominated. talking about the visitor. Now it was nominated for an Emmy award for outstanding makeup for a series. That award, however, was won by Voyager's Threshold.
00:30:55
Speaker
And I think that's okay. Even though I know people hate Threshold, we gave it a kill when we had it. By people, that's me. Yeah. But I think the makeup for that episode makeup was just deserves that over this one. Yes, for sure.
00:31:07
Speaker
ah It was also nominated for a Hugo Award for Best Dramatic Presentation. which did not win though. It lost to a Babylon five episode, the coming of shadows. It was also up against Apollo 13, Toy Story and 12 monkeys for the Hugo award.
00:31:23
Speaker
So three movies, Babylon five and a deep sea Stein episode. That was, that's a tough category. So wait, should Babylon five sweep over Apollo 13, Toy Story and one over all of those. Yes.
00:31:35
Speaker
Wow. Babylon five. oh good monkey Yeah, exactly. i'll never know You never seen Babylon 5? can i when it was on When it was on concurrently with Deep Space Nine, i I tried to check it out.
00:31:50
Speaker
After the success of TNG, g a lot of science fiction came out. CBS tried their hand at putting some junky sci-fi in I think I watched almost all of them at least like once and and none of them stuck.
00:32:04
Speaker
so Netflix thinks I'll like it, but I personally haven't watched it yet. Although Netflix is usually pretty, pretty on point. It knows a lot about what I like. from all the many many number yeah Yeah. From the decades of me telling it, I like this.
00:32:17
Speaker
I don't like that. It's pretty solid. So maybe i'll like it. All let's get into the grades then. We'll start with great scenes, Sharice. How many did you have?
00:32:28
Speaker
um I picked two. Although, like I said, I really enjoyed this episode. I mean, it was it was the kind of episode where it's so good. I don't take I didn't have to take many notes because I was just like so wrapped in the story, yeah which is unusual. Almost everything I can like take myself out and be very objective.
00:32:44
Speaker
But I picked two. And that was the opening campfire scene um where he's just like sitting in front of the crackling fire and he's like, If you would have come any other day, i would have said no and sent you on your way. But today, of all days, I'm going to tell you the story. I was like, oh, I love this. Let me s scoot up to the fire.
00:33:01
Speaker
You know, it just was like, i was expecting a big book on his lap and he's turning the pages. he's like, once upon a time, there lived a boy on a space station. loved that Loved it. Loved it.
00:33:13
Speaker
um And then the ending death scene. The ending death reuniting scene where he was just like, I've been expecting you. Like, I loved all of that. So yeah those are my two. but Those are great. I thought the episode largely was vibes.
00:33:26
Speaker
but You know i mean? Like I thought they're all out of good scenes, but what actually raised it and two those were two of mine. I did have two more. I actually really liked the scene where Kira confronts Jake about staying on the station. Mm hmm.
00:33:39
Speaker
Because he says he considers Deep Space Nine home. She makes him promise to leave when she tells him to go. It's literally a five line scene, but I think it is beautifully shot and it is yeah very well acted.
00:33:51
Speaker
It's like all in silhouette and it's Yes, it's beautiful. It's. and It's just memorable. And I kind of forget. But at the same time, I forget about every time I watch it. So every time I see this episode, it's like this nice surprise of like, I really love this scene.
00:34:05
Speaker
I think the visitor is playing a character like Major Kira is supposed to be not as cuddly. cuddly yes sweet and whatever it's just in the non-visitor is that so she kind of just becomes that and i'm fine with that it's just sometimes i'm always thinking about i don't i feel like major cure is less sentimental than this but the non-visitor is so emotional she's always brimming with emotion whenever she does anything that she's very kind and and i think siric lofton actually
00:34:38
Speaker
I'm not criticizing his acting through the series. It's not like Jake had a lot to do most of the time, but he really stepped up his game for this one. And I think it just, it was a nice touching scene. A moment, a surprising moment between two characters who I don't think got a lot of,
00:34:51
Speaker
time time together yeah and of course the scene is sort of echoed in the final shot of the series spoiler alert um anyway so it's nice uh and then i also had the scene where jake and ben in the subspace pocket where uh where we've got this time travel element and jake cisco as an older man in the matrix white room That's right. That's right.
00:35:13
Speaker
ah Or in the tapestry Q dead space that Picard's find found himself in. Or in the whatever that place is called in Discovery. was right the That's right. The infinity room. Yeah. room yeah yeah Which we we speculated that's just a subspace pocket. You can just call it. Yeah. Out of time. Amazing.
00:35:33
Speaker
amazing ah But I really like that scene because it's, you know, if you're doing like a one act play, it's a ridiculous one act play. You've got one guy slapping his combat yelling techno babble.
00:35:43
Speaker
And you've got a dad being like, calm down, nerd. I'm trying to talk to you. But I thought it was very emotional because of how upset Jake is. Tony Todd gets. It's very real. And I really liked Avery Brooks reactions to all that.
00:35:56
Speaker
I just thought it was very touching. He's making him promise to have a better life. And Avery Brooks really lets it go. He's like, promise me just the way he says that. very intoning so ah yeah great best Shrek tropes I have five Oh, wow. I have two.
00:36:12
Speaker
um My first is the utter belief. I love this. So Jake told Dax when he first saw his dad, he was like, i don't think it was a dream. And he says, so Dax did a thorough scan of my entire room.
00:36:23
Speaker
I just love that they always do that on Star Trek. It's like, yeah I think I saw a ghost. And they're all right, level three diagnostics. Let's go check it out. Let's see that ghost. You know I mean? they They're never like, oh, honey, I think you're just tired. you know what mean? They're like, I mean, it's Star Trek. It could be. It could be anything. We're just going to go ahead and scan.
00:36:39
Speaker
That's why they do it. By the way, well like agree yeah it's three in the morning and Dr. Crusher is calling them about something and he's like, all right, I'll check it out. Yeah, it's three the morning. She's like, I just heard a bunch of voices in my in my in my room. I just heard a bunch of voices. i don't know who they are. it was creepy. All right, well, let's go ahead and get up and scan your room. Let's see who's there.
00:37:03
Speaker
ye Alien species, new life form, first contact. We don't know, but we're just going to go ahead and scan it. And his girlfriend, that's why Jordy had few girlfriends, was was like, where are you going? he's like three yeah yeah He's like, listen, weird shit happens all the time.
00:37:18
Speaker
And I'm the only person who can do the scan. or I'm the most trustworthy after dating. Okay, cool. Yes. The belief. That's great. That's i one one that' tied to my first one, though, is sort of like subspace.
00:37:34
Speaker
but Whenever, anytime there's subspace wonkiness going on, an inversion, a time like which causes a time dilation in this pocket, it moves different speeds. the Star Trek characters are always more than willing to be like, this is weird. Doesn't make sense.
00:37:49
Speaker
There's a subspace disturbance. Oh, that then it makes perfect sense. so They literally said this out. So they were like, well, that makes perfect sense. If it's subspace, that was actually my second one. My second one is techno babble, which sometimes can be a worst track trope.
00:38:02
Speaker
But often I like it because it just makes it more, you know, it gives it it gives it that that spice, that little sprinkling of sci fi. But what I liked about
Critique of Makeup and Visuals
00:38:10
Speaker
in here is that they use the techno babble to explain everything away.
00:38:12
Speaker
And I was like, yep, that tracks whatever they just said about subspace, shards, time, something trapped and then rubber band. But he could come back. Yeah, all that. and That all tracks.
00:38:23
Speaker
That's right. It was just enough explanation to be like, that sounds correct. That's the solution. So Jake has been dragging his father through time like an anchor. but also it's a rubber band that surrounds the metaphors.
00:38:39
Speaker
Maybe that's like also a best trick trip is the mixing of the metaphors. Like a library or a vault or a gallery or a bank. It's all the same thing, right? That's right.
00:38:51
Speaker
You get what I mean. Okay. You can bet. You got it. All right. It's clear. We get it with a library card. So for sure, at least it's that. Yeah. ah And those are your two. Okay. um So let's see here.
00:39:04
Speaker
I also put time loops in here because this is sort of an emotional version of cause and effect. I feel like there's a better example that I'm not thinking of. This is like a more emotional Q squared in a way also. Yeah.
00:39:15
Speaker
Or time squared, time squared, excuse me. um So I kind of appreciated that because sometimes time loops, they're they are just gimmicks. you know ah Timeless, oh, timeless is another emotional time loop of sorts.
00:39:30
Speaker
It's similar to this one, right? Where it's an alternate timeline yes versus just a dream. all and that Yeah, and that they get multiple bites at the apple to try to fix the problem. And yeah, yeah so ah but the emotional part of it, I think, is really great.
00:39:44
Speaker
when When the time loops are emotional, I'm into it, except for cause and effect being the exception of the rule where it's like, well, this is just so well done. How could you? Yeah, or it's just fun. You're just like, what's going to happen next?
00:39:55
Speaker
Let's go around again. yeah Yeah, the next three I have are basically... deep space nine level tropes ben cisco being a good dad by wanting to be a good dad like you very clearly see it's not avery brooks elevating the material to make it so that it's clear ben cisco's a good dad it's like in the text yes he's interested in his son's life yes he cares very much he helps him with decisions he's proud of his son when proud and he's like yeah i'm sorry i gave up on you dad and stop searching he's like i don't care about that you wrote a book kiddo i'm
00:40:28
Speaker
You know, he's just like, I don't care about that. You got to move on with your life. So anyways, tell me about this girl. It's just like very sweet. Yep. He also brings him aboard the Defiant to witness this once, almost once in a lifetime event.
00:40:40
Speaker
And then when si Jake won't come out of the story, he's like, how about this? We'll go watch it and then we'll read. I'll read what you have and we we can talk about it You know what mean? like So he's not like bribing him so much as he's showing an interest in what he's doing. Right. Instead of just dismissing it. Instead, he's going to be a part of it. That's true.
00:40:58
Speaker
I think that's great. And then the other two were the Quark having a heart of gold. Because I think people are like, oh, it's the Frangie. They only care about money or whatever. But at least between Quark and Nog in this episode, and there's plenty of other episodes, but I'm like, if you don't watch every episode Deep Space Nine, you would be You might miss it.
00:41:19
Speaker
Vulnerable to the stereotypes, I think. But there are many episodes where Quark and Nog are real people, not just like Ferengi stereotypes. And in this particular case, we get an example of both of them.
00:41:31
Speaker
Nog is a great friend of Jake. He always has been. And he's a great friend here, I think. I love Aaron Eisenberg. I think Aaron Eisenberg's performance in this one is actually very good. He's playing Nog at the young age. He's playing him as the seasoned captain.
00:41:44
Speaker
But Quark having a heart of gold, people forget. because And he talked about, like, yeah, when the Cardassians were beating the shit out of the Bajorans, I felt bad about it. And I wasn't, like, cruel to the Bajorans on top of it.
00:41:56
Speaker
Which, okay, but he's still collaborating. Fine. But he's always been very sweet to Kira throughout the show for a good chunk of time throughout the show. And here he's showing some sensitivity to like, oh, Jake's dad yeah died. and aint And he sees that not he knows that Nog is his friend and, ah you know, he's into it. So I just appreciate that because I like Quark and I and I and I just like whenever they make Quark.
00:42:20
Speaker
three-dimensional so that when he does truly shitty stuff you can be like you know better quark i know you you know better you're a good person yeah i love that scene when he was like hey it's fine like why don't you guys go hang out just because he overheard dog being like oh sorry jake guess we can't hang out that was really sweet that was really i was actually surprised because i'm not as familiar with all the episodes and all his moods And Nog's like, are you sure? And Quirk's like, yes, before I change my mind, please go. Because he's still like the profit motive, the efficiency. yeah
00:42:52
Speaker
Anyway, and then the more the running bit, you wouldn't have understood this, I don't think. The running bit of Mourn talking everybody's ear off, but we never see it. So Mourn Did we ever see Morin? Do we see this character? Yes.
00:43:04
Speaker
In the scene that we just talked about, it starts with like a voiceover and there's a bald alien in a gray suit. that Oh, is that Morin? That's Morin. I thought Morin was a Ferengi. I was like, that? Morin sits at the bar all the time. It is a scrabbling of letters of Norm from Cheers. He's like the guy that's always at the bar. That's hilarious. Do we ever hear him talk or is he like Maggie Simpson?
00:43:29
Speaker
yeah he' funny But they always have a running bit of like cutting to the scene and and someone being like, that's an interesting point, Morn. I'll think about that. And then Morn nods and then they go on to whatever the scene is.
00:43:39
Speaker
And then they do have a whole episode about Morn. And it's great. but That is a very funny episode of like, how do we do an episode about a character that can't talk? And it's very, it's very funny.
00:43:50
Speaker
So Morn is, Morn is great in this one there. The fact that they're really leading into like Morn took over the bar and he's talking everyone's ear off. I just thought it was funny. Where's Trek Tropes? I have a one.
00:44:03
Speaker
have one also. And this is, it's funny because apparently they got nominated for an Emmy for this and it's the old person makeup. so That's what you have. Which at the time I'm i am certain like back in the old, like with the old fuzzy screens we had, it probably looked so flawless, but with like the ultra HD, not so much.
00:44:22
Speaker
um my I have a very clear memory of this. It doesn't, it's always like they only age people in one direction. There's no, it's always the same, like everyone's skin sags and it looks like big chunks of oatmeal on people's faces and we'll put gray in their hair and that'll be it.
00:44:39
Speaker
Terry Farrell is a beautiful woman. She does not look like she has aged very much in 30 years and they're trying to do 50 years. I mean, Star Trek. Yeah. that's but But that's all, every time when you age somebody up, you don't know what they're going to look like, so you just guess. I remember seeing the
Cosplay and Character Designs
00:44:53
Speaker
20th anniversary special for Harry Potter.
00:44:56
Speaker
And at the end, spoiler alert, at the end of Harry Potter, the kids are aged up 20 years. And so in the 20-year anniversary, they look almost exactly the same as they did in the last movie.
00:45:07
Speaker
And they're all like, oh, thank God we don't look like we did in the end of the movie. They were all like, man, like, you know, Rupert Grint or ah the... And Ron was like, oh, I think he was like balding or like had a beer belly or something like that in the end. And he was like, oh man, I'm so glad. Like they were all relieved that they just look pretty much the same. They didn't look.
00:45:25
Speaker
Yeah, they didn't look like as bad as they did in the aging up that happened in the movies. And I think it's the same thing with this. Right. You're just like, oh, no, in a couple of years, you know, in many years, you'll just have like a lot of gray hair and be really wrinkled, I guess.
00:45:38
Speaker
And then 20 years later, they look almost exactly the same, but they're, you know, their hair is like a little more straight or something like that. um But they have to show us the viewer that a lot of time has passed. Yes. And they have to just guess.
00:45:51
Speaker
Okay. Do you have an example in your head that you can call up of like, that is some great aging makeup? Um, yeah. Well, okay, so Admiral Janeway looked good because they didn't go crazy with it. They didn't put on thick prosthetics and another you know layer of head or anything like that. i think there's a lot of reasons why they they did a very subtle one for her. That's a great example, actually, though.
00:46:17
Speaker
but And there's one other one. Everyone else got kind of screwed by that, though. captain picard looked in inner light as like whatever that guy's name was ja yeah he looked exactly like scrooge you know he just had like the big wispy he looks nothing like that today he looks just like he did before but just like slower but he looks the same you know So i I can, there's one other one in TNG that I can't remember, but I just remember us commenting on it, me and um Andrea in the TNG podcast. I remember us saying like, wow, this is the best old makeup we've ever seen.
00:46:50
Speaker
But I can't remember who that was, when it was, what the context was. So apparently there was at least one other example, but usually it's, usually it's pretty bad. I would say the best I've ever seen, or at least that comes front of mind, is the Leftovers series finale with Justin Theroux and Carrie Coon aged up.
00:47:08
Speaker
And it's very subtle, but it's also in HD. So they obviously what's the HD version of all this stuff? And it's it's very like they even ah describe what kind of paper it is that they use to create the wrinkles now.
00:47:23
Speaker
And I just remember being like, this is amazing because they didn't make them look like puddles of oatmeal or whatever. They just kind of grayed them up and wrinkled them up a little bit. And it was fantastic. So I kind of think that's that's the best I've seen. What about Burnham and Book and Discovery?
00:47:40
Speaker
Oh, that's the... Okay, that's great too. that you know that's I looked really good. That's pretty funny that they both end kind of in the same way. That was really great. Absolutely. that would of course But of course, that was good because it's done for the HD camera.
00:47:52
Speaker
where they knew they couldn't just put on a big, fat, prosthetic old person head. I think you just nailed it. I think that's the best we've ever seen in Star Trek. So far. Most cosplayable character or moment?
00:48:04
Speaker
um I picked Jake's wife, who's wearing future New Orleans casuals.
Memorable Lines and Emotional Themes
00:48:10
Speaker
I kind of, you know, I like I like the civilian clothes from time to time because I'm always like, what do people wear in future times?
00:48:17
Speaker
That's so different. Then you add the Bajoran ridges and the earring. And there you go. Yeah. I put Nog as captain. because you could actually dress kids in that because he's so small. Right. But also I had this thought while watching this because it was kind of strange.
00:48:33
Speaker
I was trying to figure out the timing of it. So Jake's in his thirties, I guess, in that scene with the, with the wife and a nod comes over and he's almost captain. He's not captain yet. Sorry.
00:48:43
Speaker
um But he's wearing basically the TNG g era captain's uniform. which is a little strange. And then we see him as a captain. He's wearing the all good things, captain version there. But I was also trying to think like, why did they stick him in this uniform?
00:48:59
Speaker
And I was also suddenly remembering they probably put him in one of the uniforms from Rascals. I was going to, I was just about to say, as you were talking, my brain was going in. I was like, they don't have kid size uniforms. So why didn't they just make him something new?
00:49:13
Speaker
And then I said, except for Rascals. That's what I said in my head. Like that's the only time when they had a kid size uniform. But if they didn't have one, they had to create a new uniform for him. How hard is that? It's not hard. Like, why didn't they just make it's It's not hard, but at the same time, it's like they are trying to save money wherever they can.
00:49:32
Speaker
And they also said that the All Good Things uniforms were just like Robert Blackman was like, well, this seems appropriate. It kind of fits the timeline and all that stuff. And he was right. As soon as we saw that, that's like future coded. Star Trek fans at the time understood that.
00:49:46
Speaker
Yours is better, though, of course. But I just wanted to make the mention of the Rascals size uniform. Was he wearing the row one? Is he that small? He's not that slender.
00:49:57
Speaker
But then it's like ah the the Picard kid seemed a little taller than him. So I don't know. I just want mention that. Now it's time for the line. two. The first is great line i have two ah first is When old Jake says there's only one first time and one last time. You think about these things when you get to be my age.
00:50:19
Speaker
I was like, wow, that is profound. This is why we need to hang out with older people. like Like seriously, because you never like So I'm I just turned 40. And so now I'm kind at that halfway point where I can like look back and forward. And I remember being in my like in my 20s. I never would have had a thought like this, that there is such a thing as a last time.
00:50:40
Speaker
For anything, even though I had already lost loved ones and stuff like that, I never would have had in my mind that there's a last time. Everything is a first. Everything is new. Everything is future. Everything is what's happening next.
00:50:51
Speaker
And now that I'm 40, I'm like kind of on the other side where I'm like, I want to appreciate my family more. I want to spend more time with my friends. I want to spend more time with people because that's what's going to matter. Now I'm seeing more like, oh, there could be last times for things.
00:51:03
Speaker
So just when he said that line, I was like, okay, this is why we need to hang out with older people because they help us appreciate stuff that we can't appreciate because we don't have the perspective and then we miss it and we don't get it until we're 90. And now it's too late to really like, you know, appreciate some of the things we could before.
00:51:17
Speaker
So that was a good line. And then... I like the line when young Jake said, what he didn't realize is that I could hide out on the Defiant just as easily as I could hide out on the space station. i was like, that's a really good point. and he thought like, oh, if I pull him, if I bring him onto the Defiant, he's going all of a sudden integrate. Nope, I'm still writing my story. I could literally write this from anywhere. Coffee shop, basement, doesn't matter.
00:51:40
Speaker
Could be a whole Cardassian battle behind me, but I'm still writing the story. I'm in my quarters. ah Cisco's line along in that scene where he's on the defiant writing. He says, well, I'm no writer, but if i if I were, it seems to me I'd want to poke my head up once in a while and take a look around, see what's going on.
00:51:55
Speaker
It's life, Jake. You can miss it if you don't open your eyes. Now, what do you say you come up on the bridge with me and we'll watch the wormhole do its thing. And then I'll read what you've got and we'll talk about it. Deal? Deal. I don't. So that was very good. And also Cisco's not really totally, maybe he was channeling his own father in that moment. Cause you don't really picture when I think of Cisco, I think of him being fatherly, but not like delivering a like received wisdom or a little pearl of wisdom like that.
00:52:21
Speaker
But I can picture his dad doing that very easily. And so maybe that was something that I just like that continuity there. ah k Nog's line, fish, when these woods are crawling with perfectly good slugs. then And then Corinna, Jake's wife asks, I suppose you're going to ask me to chew your food for you. and he goes, I have to admit, I've been more popular with women since I stopped asking them to to do that.
00:52:43
Speaker
So That was hilarious. And then Jake is like, told you to do that 20 years ago. I told you to stop doing that. It's so funny. I'm going to play this
Family, Legacy, and Appreciating Time
00:52:54
Speaker
line instead because I don't want to read out the whole sequence, but I love the little bit where Jake's apologizing for giving up on him.
00:53:00
Speaker
Talk to me. I've missed so much. Let's not waste what little time we have. I have a feeling you might want to see these.
00:53:14
Speaker
They're Jake's. You did it. I always knew you would.
00:53:23
Speaker
Jake. I'm sorry. For what?
00:53:45
Speaker
No one could be expected to hold out hope for this long. No, I just kept trying to find you, and I just went on with my life. And I'm proud of what you've accomplished.
00:53:58
Speaker
of it matters. that I know that you're out there lost somewhere, of course it matters.
00:54:08
Speaker
have a wife, a career. And don't think because I'm not around much that I don't want grandchildren.
00:54:20
Speaker
Don't think I don't want grandchildren. Yes. I really like when parents. That made me laugh. Or like where when parents are very concerned with getting grandparents. but It's a funny quirk.
00:54:31
Speaker
ah It's one I don't know if I'll ever feel that. But I always appreciate it. It seems like
Visual and Narrative Impact
00:54:38
Speaker
it's always coming from a very loving place. So I think it's funny. And then I think the last exchange between old Jake and and Cisco, which I will play, I will not read it all out.
00:54:48
Speaker
It won't be long now. Jake, no!
00:54:57
Speaker
When I die, you'll go back to where this all began. Just remember to dodge the energy discharge from the warp core.
00:55:09
Speaker
Jake, you could still have so many years left. No, we have to be together when I die.
00:55:21
Speaker
Jake, you didn't have to do this. Not for me.
00:55:29
Speaker
for you and for the boy that I was. He needs you more than you know.
00:55:39
Speaker
Don't you see?
00:55:43
Speaker
We're going to get second
00:55:48
Speaker
chance.
00:55:54
Speaker
Jake. My sweet boy.
00:56:05
Speaker
Would this episode be a fun holo novel to play out, Shreece? Well, I put, I'm not quite sure what the character would do in this hollow novel. um It seems a little traumatic. So if you're playing as Jake and you're just like reliving this horrible past, like I just don't get the game part.
00:56:21
Speaker
So you would have to watch your dad die. You'd have to be really sad about it. Yeah. You'd have to go to Starfleet Academy and learn temporal mechanics or subspace field dynamics. Like that, but you'd have to have a relationship and and lose it and end it. Yeah. I put no.
00:56:40
Speaker
Yeah. Let's go with no. Yeah. ah The Anton Caridian Award for Best Performance. I put old Jake. Yeah, I put Tony Todd as well.
00:56:51
Speaker
And I also put Tony Todd for the Shatner. So did I.
00:56:56
Speaker
So did I. And I put Ora Rando because she did seem very believable with her big doe-eyed, like, I just love to read your stories. That's true. Actually, at one point I started to get a little bit misery vibes. I was like, oh, oh she going to like turn into a crazy person? Okay, no, she's just that she just she's just like a legitimate fan. Okay.
00:57:13
Speaker
So that was a relief. yeah but She didn't turn it into some kind of bad guy or shapeshifter or something. ah So shoot to throw. And then that's again, the Shatner is not an insult. It's just like who we want to spotlight the person who really went for it.
00:57:27
Speaker
Occasionally, sometimes I will be like, this person was really trying and they're really going for it. But I think because you have to act through that age makeup, but also convey your emotional state. This is a very emotional episode. And he was crying over the prosthetics, too. Like yeah he was he was bringing the emotion. I could feel it.
00:57:44
Speaker
And in terms of Anton Caridian, also just, I, I, Cerec Lofton, this is great. This might be his best episode. He's, you know, he's really trying and Jake doesn't never really had a lot to do ah in terms of a why emotional dynamism. He always had to basically be the kid.
00:57:58
Speaker
And then in terms of the Shatner, I mean, Aaron Eisenberg was really going for it in all forms of dog. And appreciate it. He was. And I thought that too. I was like, I love how excited he was when Jake was all depressed and he was like, come on, we can do this.
00:58:09
Speaker
Oh, we'll go to earth together. It'll be so much fun. Yeah. and Like he was just so enthusiastic and Jake's just like, yeah, whatever. And I like, oh, okay, buddy. Well, I'll see later. Okay. And then when he's older, he doesn't have that like hyper puppy energy, but he's still, but he's still very enthusiastic, but as an older person, like a more mature version of that, he did a great job.
00:58:28
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Shoot to thrill most exciting image or sequence. So I have one exciting sequence and then I guess just one, one image that I really liked. So the exciting sequence was when Cisco disappeared in the beginning.
00:58:40
Speaker
I was shocked. of This is my first time seeing episode. But I was like, oh my gosh, what just happened? And then I was like, surely he didn't die. Like, he just disappeared. But then it was like, months go by and months go by. And I was like, well, he can't die because like, this is season four.
00:58:55
Speaker
But like, what the heck? And then he just shows back. I was like, so the whole, that part when he disappeared was very much a mind scramble for me. That's when I was like, this has to be a dream. It has to be a story. It has to be some alien kidnapped him through the warp field and something. The prophets need him for like a house call. Yeah. yes Something. and then they're going to bring him back and he's going to be all enlightened.
00:59:17
Speaker
um So that scene was really exciting and shocking. And then the other part that I just thought was cool was the books with the screens in them. Yeah. That looked cool. That was like very Harry Potter. Like I was expecting to see the characters like moving and growling on the cover.
00:59:33
Speaker
um Yeah, those are my two. That was funny that you mentioned that because they imply in the 24th century, it's still kind of like how it is today. Jake wrote a novel and then like a studio is going to turn it into a hollow novel.
00:59:47
Speaker
ah His books like it's gonna be a movie. I thought that was funny. I put because this image has stuck with me the entire time. It's the first thing I think about whenever I think of this episode. It was a shot unlike any other to this point in Star Trek was the shot of the memorial service.
01:00:03
Speaker
Where the promenade's entirely filled with people from top to bottom. Every edge of the frame is filled up and it's such a deep shot. It really sells you the profundity of the moment.
01:00:16
Speaker
um And
Starfleet Academy Lessons and Episode Tone
01:00:17
Speaker
I thought it was ah a wonderful shot. ah What part of this will you teach at Starfleet Academy? I put something about subspace fragments and time doesn't exist there.
01:00:27
Speaker
ah feel like we should spell that out. Well, subspace has an infinite number of domains and maybe just in some of them time moves slowly or not at all. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we need a whole class on that. All kinds of subspace. It does all kinds of crazy things.
01:00:40
Speaker
So magic exists and it's in subspace is kind of what I guess that's what Harry Potter, the next generation is going to be about. Also dragons. i love in sopace ah I don't know. the i'm this is where I'm airing out some grievances here. So this episode, i don't know. You don't know this. so I'm going tell you right now, this was the second episode of the fourth season.
01:01:01
Speaker
So the previous episode was the two hour episode that introduced Worf into the series. Yeah. And Warf was brought into the series because now the Klingons were trying to start a war. And that two hour block ends with the Klingons pulling out of the Kittimer Accords and basically saying, we're now back at war.
01:01:18
Speaker
Now they're doing this. The show is doing this because by the end of season three, the ratings were soft. And so Paramount was like, you got to figure out how to shake things up.
01:01:29
Speaker
And and so yeah, They're like, bring Worf back. And then they were like, sure. And then there then the show was thinking, like, how can we what would bring Worf back to? And like, what's the story for that? So that's what I came up with was that the Klingons, the founders, the Dominion was pulling strings in the Alpha Quadrant.
01:01:48
Speaker
and getting getting them to fight amongst each other so they'd be easier to conquer. Well, what this did was play press a huge pause button on their planned arc with the the Dominion. So it's very jarring where you're like, season three is ending with like, okay, we're going to fight the Dominion in season four. And it's like, nope, pause, Klingons.
01:02:05
Speaker
Well, that explains why they're talking about Klingons though, in the episode. Maybe that right that's what that little C plot is for to connect it. So there's two starts and stops. So season three ends with like, here come the Dominion. And then it's like, nope, season four starts with the Klingons. hu And then, and we get this episode, which is like not talking about the Dominion really, but it's also like, but then Cisco dies. So what's going on with this? It's like, it's a weird backstop. And in this episode,
01:02:33
Speaker
that we are told by Jake in these this alternate future that the Bajorans form a defense pact with the Cardassians. hu And in my mind, what Starfleet history, what you learn at the Academy was like the Cardassians occupied Bajor for 60 years and brutalized them. right I cannot imagine a world where they would agree to a defense pact. That doesn't make any sense. I wrote the same thing in my notes. I was just like, this doesn't make sense.
01:02:59
Speaker
Like I get there saying like, oh, we're going to combine forces against the Klingons, but like I wouldn't combine forces with them against anybody. They'd be like my sworn enemies. And then the Klingons conquer the the Cardassian station there and take it back over.
01:03:12
Speaker
But then that's basically what happens in the regular timeline, except it's the Bajorans forming a defense pact with the Dominion. So that Bajor can be protected from this Dominion War that comes later on. yeah And then the Federation reconquers it.
01:03:27
Speaker
With literally anyone but the Cardassians. Right. like that's You're totally right. only That is the only alien species that they would never form a pact with. That's right. That's that's absolutely correct.
01:03:38
Speaker
um Yeah. So I just, that was the only area where I could see to. So what would they be teaching at Starfleet Academy? Yeah. that They'd be teaching about the history. politics Yeah. Okay. But if the Bajorans are aligning with the Cardassian, something has gone very wrong.
01:03:53
Speaker
Yeah, something you look for I would look for time loops going on here. yeah Some temporal displacement. I wonder if there's this... There's got to be, like, students who are, like, cutting-edge thinkers like that, where, like, this seems strange. have Are we sure time travel hasn't influenced this this ah particular incident? There's a There's, and you can cut this part out, but there's an episode of Lord Dex where there's like ah a character who's like a conspiracy theorist.
01:04:17
Speaker
And he's kind of like that. Like everything, do you remember that where everything that goes wrong? He's like, it's the such and such aliens. They're behind everything. yeah And Boiler's like, there's no such aliens as those aliens. And then there really are those aliens and they really are behind everything.
01:04:29
Speaker
he's like, I knew it all along. That's how they get out of the and this situation because the aliens are like, you know so much about us.
01:04:37
Speaker
Could this episode have been hornier and would that made it better? I said no and no. No, I think the wife stuff was was perfect. Yeah, like I think any tinge of darkness, which, because to me, i was like, what was the avenue for horniness? And like you said, the wife part of that, but that's like a married couple. it was great.
01:04:56
Speaker
But the only other part is like he plays a bunch of Domjot and is depressed after his dad dies. That's like the only area where he could see, does he start drinking and whoring? Well, like after his dad dies, but like you put any of that kind of darkness in the episode, it's the dark The episode ends on a very... The solution is very dark.
01:05:15
Speaker
who You know what I mean? So yeah the implications of it are kind of dark. so It's not lacking in sad stuff. exactly. yeah So you don't want to
Personal Connections and Storytelling
01:05:23
Speaker
add that ah in there. So Trek, Marry, or Kill the Visitor, Sharice.
01:05:27
Speaker
Oh, this was an easy marry for me. An easy marry. This episode was excellent. And I also put in my notes, you know, this i didn't know we were going to talk about this at the at the opening of the show, but because I lost my father young...
01:05:40
Speaker
This just like, just everything in here had a different tinge for me. and so i was like, I don't know if that changed how much I enjoyed it. But I also thought like what I was saying before, it just was a really well told story. I love the campfire feel. I love the flashbacks.
01:05:55
Speaker
I love the reset button. That was a relief. And then I love how they did the reset button, that it wasn't a dream or a story. Though, like I said before, I still would have liked it if that was the case. But I felt like they, somebody put a little more thought into it and said, how could we make this, how can we not negate this story?
01:06:10
Speaker
Yeah. And it feels like Voyager was like constantly resetting alternate realities. Yes, we shall do this. This will be the the basis for many of our episodes. Yeah.
01:06:21
Speaker
But then Voyager kind of cleaned it up by having a whole episode where the time cop tries to destroy them for doing that so often. So you feel like somebody noticed, someone somewhere noticed that they keep hitting the reset button and they're over it and they're sick of it. Yeah.
01:06:35
Speaker
I also said Mary and it's strange though, because my episode, my thought about this episode has never like, it's weird. You're a huge Star Trek fan. Your dad is the one who got you into Star Trek.
01:06:46
Speaker
He dies when you're 10 and you see this episode when you're 14, basically. And it's like, I, the whole time I was watching, I'm like, this is weird. my my favorite thing talking about the saddest thing that's happened in my life so far. But I also wasn't feeling it in the moment of like this.
01:07:03
Speaker
I think I, a lot of stuff with any time of parent death at the time was like, I think this is supposed to mean something for me. Instead it it never did, but it's just taking time. But many fans.
01:07:13
Speaker
And it really doesn't have to, because no it doesn't have to mean any, it doesn't have to mean anything to you personally in your own life and experiences. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, it's a story and stories just help us understand the world better.
01:07:25
Speaker
That's right. And also the perspective, with all due respect to my father, had his demons and was going through stuff. And certainly I never got the sense that they he didn't love me, but he was in no way like Benjamin Sisko. He wasn't sit on my lap. Let me read your story. Let's talk about it. he He was like, you can be your own person. he was never like, don't do that. But it was also like he wasn't that as interested.
01:07:47
Speaker
He wasn't as invested. Yeah. Anyway, many
DS9's Unique Emotional Depth
01:07:50
Speaker
fans of Geekstakes 9 have also counted up this among their favorite episodes. And a 1996 issue of TV Guide. I'm not going to explain to people what TV Guide is. You know what it is or you don't.
01:08:00
Speaker
okay it was If you're listening to this show, you you probably know what it is. I would hope so. According to the demographic data I'm provided by some of the platforms, people should know what TV Guide is. In a 1996 issue of TV Guide, though, it was voted the best Star Trek show ever. I assume that means episode. I'm copy-pasting this from...
01:08:20
Speaker
ah from memory alpha TV guy called this result, a shocker surprised that quote, the least popular incarnation of star Trek has produced the most popular show.
01:08:31
Speaker
guess we're talking about episode again. ah So TV guide ranked this as the 10th best star Trek episode for their celebration of the franchise's 30th anniversary in 1996. The reviewer wrote easily deep space, nine's finest hour and the most haunting heartfelt Trek installment ever.
01:08:48
Speaker
This episode was lovely. I would put it super high on my list of great, of great Star Trek period. Yeah. And I mean, again, this came out in 95. So in 96 is when we had trials and tribulations, you know what, Cherise, maybe this was everyone's favorite. And then when you got like a nice, very fun and loving, respectful towards Star Trek, great episode of deep space nine, and people were more than willing to be like, Oh no, not the one that makes us cry. The one that makes us laugh is our favorite. Yeah. That's actually a good point. And also we didn't have streaming back then. So it was like top of mind episodes, like yeah unless you had the VHS or recorded your TV or whatever, it's like out of sight, out of mind, whatever happened last season happened last season.
01:09:30
Speaker
That's great point. And, but Ira Bear always contends like, why is everyone's favorite episode of our show? Another show? Like everyone's favorite episode Deep Space Nine is an homage to TOS episode. It's like, know, let's just replace the visitor atop the list if we have to So yeah.
01:09:45
Speaker
it It's not a story that only Deep Space Nine could do in in the science part of it. But I think the emotional crux of this story only Deep Space Nine could do. Because of Deep Space Nine, Absolutely. Nothing else would have had this.
01:09:58
Speaker
Any other kids that we've seen on the shows couldn't have pulled this off because they don't have as connected of a relationship with their parent or guardian. I mean, if you put this in, it's Beverly and Wesley. Could you pull it off? No. Could you pull off? No, because I don't see Beverly being like, hey, son, let me sit down and read your report on subspace mechanics.
01:10:19
Speaker
It's just not that's not the kind of relationship they had. They they had a buddy buddy. Let's go hang out at the bar kind of a relationship. So no, it wouldn't have worked. Wesley wouldn't be able to get together the crew again to go visit the wormhole. He'd have to like- He absolutely wouldn't have been able to. Who would be his advocate?
01:10:36
Speaker
It would be the anaphasic life form. and Dad. Yeah. Yeah. And that hologram of his dad that he talked to the one time listened one time. The one time when he was all drugged up. Yep. That's funny. Yeah, no, it would not have, it wouldn't have had the emotional resonance because they didn't have that same dynamic.
01:10:54
Speaker
um Yeah. With any of the kids I'm thinking through that. That's just, it wouldn't have been, doesn't mean it wouldn't been a good episode, but I think yeah this story could only be told on DS9.
Conclusion and Next Episode Preview
01:11:04
Speaker
All right, Therese, where can people see you until your return next week?
01:11:10
Speaker
You can find me on YouTube, type in at the Sci-Fi Savage and be sure to join us for our weekly live streams where we talk all things Star Trek. And as I mentioned just now, Sharice will return next week when our The Captain is Dead month who comes to a close with Coda from Star Trek Voyager.
01:11:30
Speaker
Captain Janeway is dead and joining her to help with crossing over is her dad.
01:11:37
Speaker
We're CheckMaryKpod on social media and CheckMaryKillpod.com on the web where you can see all of our standings. So until next week, TMK out. Bye.