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TNG: "The Host" (s4e23) with Jessi from Crusher Convo Podcast
135 Plays1 month ago
INTRODUCING TRILL RIKER? Spring Flings Month continues as Jessi from Crusher Convo Podcast joins Bryan to discuss the episode where Dr. Crusher falls for the first Trill to appear in Star Trek -- Odan. Only, he didn't tell her about that slug inside him so, after a shuttle accident that injures his host body, she must place said slug inside Will Riker -- who's like a brother to her. Does love take many forms or does Beverly have a remarkably consistent type?
The grades begin at (26:00).
Get more of Jessi on Crusher Convo here: Crushing the Conversation, One episode at a Time!
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Host' Episode
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek, Mary, Kill. Trill, diplomacy, sex. Engage. Passion ignites between Dr. Crusher and an alien ambassador. Beverly, you're in love. But a shuttle disaster leaves him in critical condition.
00:00:15
Speaker
You're dying. Help me. Then I volunteer. Now a shocking alien transplant puts two lives at stake. I am Odin. I still love you.
00:00:26
Speaker
I don't know who you are. Unknown mystery next time on Star Trek The Next Generation.
00:00:39
Speaker
Trek, marry, kill.
Meet the Hosts and Guest
00:00:44
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Jesse. Welcome to Check, Marry, Kill, a Star Trek podcast that is ice through to its bones. Our theme this month is Spring Flings, episodes that feature main characters and romantic entanglements.
00:00:58
Speaker
Joining me this time around is the host of the podcast Crusher Conversation, which delves into Star Trek through the eyes of Dr. Crusher and the Crusher family. Jesse, welcome. Thank you for having me.
00:01:09
Speaker
I always like to ask ah guests of the show, first time guests, ah how did you get in into Star Trek? at It's my husband's fault.
00:01:18
Speaker
Yeah, so he is a huge next generation fan and ah my husband and I have known each other since we were in college. And for 18 years, it took him to finally get me to watch. And in 2022, I watched it and got hooked thanks to Beverly Crusher's character. So now I created a monster.
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thanks your husband. great show you have, but what is it about Dr. Crusher that fascinates you so much? Um, the thing that fascinated me me the most was that she was a single mom because I was a single mom for so long and you really did not have that representation back in the eighties and nineties. And I was kind of surprised that they had that, but I was also very excited.
00:01:58
Speaker
And also as I was watching it, uh, the age range between Gates and Will is the same as my daughter and I. And so as I was watching, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going through that right now. So that
Guest's Personal Connection to Dr. Crusher
00:02:09
Speaker
was one of the biggest reasons, but she represents also a lot of women that, you know, she not only as a mom, but she, you know,
00:02:20
Speaker
She's accomplished doctor and she does. ah She's a senior officer and she did all these great things. And that's basically what we all do. I'm a manager. i run a whole department. I have a lot of people under me and I'm a mom and I'm a wife. And so, yeah, it was just really great to see that in Star Trek.
00:02:39
Speaker
I wonder if that was my experience. thing too, but not really actually because my parents were still together when I, but she's the reason I got into Star Trek. So I'm with you. Dr. Crusher is great. She's awesome.
00:02:49
Speaker
And it's been great to, I didn't, I don't go to conventions a lot, but like learning about her ah basically through her podcast is how I got to know anything else about her outside of things. I'm like, oh, she's a really interesting, sharp person. It's really great. I love that she's a teacher as well.
00:03:07
Speaker
in real life. So it's fantastic. We're talking about The Host. It's the 23rd episode of Star Trek The Next Generation's fourth season. It premiered in syndication May 13th, 1991. So it's
Plot Overview and Character Romance
00:03:19
Speaker
kind of weirdly an anniversary. i didn't realize that when I scheduled it, but it was written by, i believe it's Michael Horvath, but it looks like it's Michelle Horvath. It's directed by Marvin V. Rush.
00:03:32
Speaker
ah Memory Alpha describes it. A Trill ambassador named Odon is on board to mediate a dispute and falls in love with Dr. Crusher. When the Trill host is killed, the symbiote has to be temporarily joined to Commander Riker to continue the negotiations and the affair.
00:03:46
Speaker
That's a pretty good description from Memory Alpha, but what they don't mention is, spoilers, Riker as a human can't really sustain the symbiont, and at the end, when he's successfully negotiated a truth between these two warring moons.
00:03:59
Speaker
The symbiont is transferred to a proper Trill host who is a woman. And that's when Dr. Crusher ends the affair. Jesse, do you remember the first time you saw this episode?
00:04:10
Speaker
I sure did, because I remember when I first saw The Next Generation, it was February 11th, 2022. And I literally took two and a half weeks to binge the entire series. I finished on February 28th.
00:04:23
Speaker
I watched all four movies on March 1st, and then I deep dived into Gates's podcast on March 2nd, not knowing it was her birthday, it which is a happy coincidence. But yeah, I, when I say I deep died, my husband created a monster. I am not lying. But um yeah, it was probably like four days in five days every that I saw this episode, but it's not a favorite of mine, but it does have some good moments.
00:04:47
Speaker
i I do remember watching this, but I'm trying to remember, you know, ah i don't have like a very specific strong memory. Like Remember Me was the first one I saw.
00:04:58
Speaker
So I'm watching in this season already. um
Themes of Love, Identity, and Inclusivity
00:05:01
Speaker
It is very strange to kind of look back and see what was going on in the run of episodes at the end of this fourth season, though. the It's very clear that the writers were kind of, it was a hard season and everyone was kind of tired and horny.
00:05:15
Speaker
So I don't know if you paid attention. If you paid attention to the the order, but basically ah after nth degree, you basically have Cupid Picard's in love with Vosh returns.
00:05:28
Speaker
Then you've got a serious episode in the drum head. Then you have half a life, which is like, what if Troy was in love? you have the host, which is crushers in love. Then you have the mind's eye, which like, what if Geordi on his way to getting laid is actually brainwashed?
00:05:43
Speaker
Then you have data in love and in theory, and then you end with redemption. So they were definitely like, hey, we're all kind of lonely. but youre Very lonely.
00:05:55
Speaker
What if our characters weren't? So this is sad. So redemption was Worf's episode. Yes. Yes. Oh, and they still put Lursa and Batur in that. That's where we get introduced. So they were like, well, we'll put some, we'll put some boobs in this as well. just i guess so. The boob window. Yeah, exactly.
00:06:13
Speaker
Yeah, I guess it was going on there. In his defense, there was definitely more of like his loneliness was like, I'm going to go, you know, hang out with my Klingons instead of the Starfleet. So that's funny, though.
00:06:27
Speaker
They always had a theme, though, like every single season had some theme attached to it. And I even think that for. um I think it was four. I want to say four. There was some kind of a family element because wasn't.
00:06:41
Speaker
um Well, family's literally in season four. Yeah. So. Yes, exactly. So there's always something going on. But I guess at the end, they're just like, let's just throw in whatever we can. And see what sticks. You know what, they've been holding it in long enough. Yeah. Let's get everyone some action.
00:06:59
Speaker
I guess the main question about this episode as time has gone on is, is the episode homophobic? You know, I've been ping ponging back and forth. And it's funny because from what I remember, and I tried to look it up and I couldn't find it, but I swear my life that the writer of this episode is gay.
00:07:20
Speaker
And the whole point of them, yes, the whole point of them was to just answer that question. What is love? Okay. Which I think they did bring that into this story.
00:07:33
Speaker
the thing that makes you go that the moment Odon is now a female is where it was like, no um And I think that's where it's like, I don't know if that was the, you know, way that they wanted to approach it, but that's unfortunately how it kind of looks at the end.
00:07:53
Speaker
I don't think it's meant to be homophobic. It just has that little twinge of it at the very end. I totally agree. Cause like in watching it at the time, As a child, i wasn't
Production Insights and Trill Species Evolution
00:08:05
Speaker
so I was a child when this was on. I was like, that's gross. I was like, oh, that's not going to work out. That's not what she wants.
00:08:13
Speaker
And I think the episode actually gets us from point A to B to C, C being the crushing ending. And B is like,
00:08:23
Speaker
okay, he's in Riker's body. Maybe this could work. Like it, that they there's literally a scene where she's discussing, but what is it about Odon that I was into in the first place?
00:08:36
Speaker
Right. And it's, it's dealing with that to some degree. So I do want to mention this because I didn't know if I'd have time. So Michael Horvath and, and is now a practicing marriage and family therapist in Los Angeles. This is memory alpha's notes.
00:08:48
Speaker
ah He got his degree in 2011. So it's been a little time. Who knows? Because ah he wrote this up. You know, it's a long time. He could be retired by now. But in 2005, he worked as an editor, cinematographer, producer and director on the documentary.
00:09:01
Speaker
On the documentary, We Are Dad, about a gay couple who became foster parents for HIV positive infants. In 2006, this documentary was nominated for a GLAAD Media Award in the category Outstanding Documentary.
00:09:14
Speaker
So, yes, I believe I was a part of it. A little bit more of the development of the episode in a second, but just to circle back to the idea, of the reasons why I actually think you're great for this, because you will be able to either totally agree with me or correct me a little bit, but there is no other cis baby doll than Dr. Beverly Crusher.
00:09:34
Speaker
She is full on a man is a man and a woman is a woman and let's go. um we we did the, um, The Price is another episode we'll be doing this month. And it's just that's got the scene between she and Crusher ah and Troy where she's talking about her toes curling and all that stuff.
00:09:51
Speaker
Right. And she seems very she's always been very heteronormative coded. Dr. Beverly Crusher. Absolutely. You are not wrong. I mean, she's she's as heterosexual as you can get.
00:10:04
Speaker
um The thing is, though, is I. To defend Beverly in this episode, She was absolutely correct when at the very end it was too much for her. If you kind of think about it, O'Don switched bodies three times in two days. Okay. yeah And she even struggled when O'Don was in Riker. And it was because I see him as my big brother. She mentioned that with Troy. I love that Troy scene.
00:10:30
Speaker
And I think for, for Beverly, It was just too much. Maybe eventually, you know, because she did love Odon and she mentions that at the very end, she might have actually just been, you know, okay, Odon is now into woman. I love Odon. This is how it's going to be.
Storytelling Analysis and Character Dynamics
00:10:48
Speaker
But her reaction was, but how long is it going to last? Is it going to go straight to another female, a different male, you know, trill? That was her problem. And so as much as there is that twinge at the end, I think that was really Beverly's reason for not continuing the relationship.
00:11:06
Speaker
I think there's also in terms of um drama versus not political, cultural responsibility. There's this idea of Star Trek,
00:11:18
Speaker
kind of skips over the hard parts. And it's like, we do reach this point. well'll see Well, how do we do that? Because Star Trek one of the few shows that just simply portray a future where there is some sort of equality and whatever social...
00:11:36
Speaker
justice fights that are going on today. And so here's an example of a show that's willing to step to the left, let's say, of what's the norm on television.
00:11:47
Speaker
And it quickly closes the book on that. And it's right. It's sad to consider that some 34 years later now, and We haven't really moved too far past that.
00:11:59
Speaker
How many non-traditional relationships do we see where someone is either openly bisexual or they're so into someone and they're a main character and it's kind of brushed over. You know, there's still a lot of network execs and money. People are like, la la la la la la la we're not doing that. We're not doing that. yeah it's like Or it's for the kids.
00:12:19
Speaker
yeah the kids are trying to figure it out. ah Some streaming crap of kids in school figuring their sexuality out. Right, right. Basically what it comes down to. So I don't know. I wouldn't call this like a progressive win for Star Trek, but it is certainly an an in interesting idea that feel like the episode gives a lot of weight to exploring.
00:12:38
Speaker
um That wasn't quite what the original story was about, though. Brandon Braga characterized the genesis of the episode as the most repulsive story ever pitched to us. He added being in love with someone is not very fresh.
00:12:49
Speaker
Having the parasite as the host is, it was not originally pitched as a love story. It was pitched as a squirmy worm. Who's really the intelligence. So I don't know, maybe like a, it's a, it's a quad O situation from total recall that they had just seen. They're like, Oh, we don't want to do an episode like that.
00:13:07
Speaker
Um, Let's see. So although the writing, the episodes writing credit is given to Michael Horvath, the script, the shooting script is actually written primarily by Jerry Taylor, who is the solely credited writer on the... Shocker.
00:13:20
Speaker
Yeah, the shocker. And it's like... If you backfill, if you learn about Jerry Taylor and you spotlight her episodes and you go back in, you're like, okay, yeah, that all tracks. like Now you mentioning that, i be I'm all like, now I could see where Jerry kind of snuck in a little bit. And the thing is, I'm i'm a huge defender of Sub Rosa. Yeah.
00:13:40
Speaker
and they gave it a check kristen and i liked it yes and i just listened to it recently and the thing is is that i because don't know if it's because i'm an adult when i watch this for the first time but i saw sub rosa differently okay than how it is normally portrayed and joked about and it was just because for me i saw beverly as an at addict okay i saw her addicted to his energy i never saw a love story And I saw manipulation and things like that. And in this case, for the host, you know, the one thing that I just did not like about it was I felt O'Don was a little pushy.
00:14:18
Speaker
i I felt he was really just, you know, as Riker... You could see she was so uncomfortable and he kept pushing. Okay. And she was like, no, please stop. Because it was weird to her. Like she had no idea what his species was.
00:14:36
Speaker
And of course, and I understand why Odon did it because he was like, it was just normal to me. I didn't think I had to, and that's fine. But to just be all like, let's go back to our affair. And she's like, you're like my big brother. Like, it was just weird. And I just didn't like that aspect. I think, though, if they had made O'Don go into Picard's body, that would have given it a whole different story.
00:15:00
Speaker
Because then Beverly would have questioned, do I love O'Don? Or is it the feelings that I have, Picard, that I've been hiding all this time? definitely the more interesting story. But that is the result.
00:15:12
Speaker
That is a victim of... whatever the new rules that Rick Berman instituted for Gates McFadden's return. and fortunately, yes, because it was right there that that's exactly right. Especially since Jean-Luc Picard's the one with the diplomatic skills, right? That's like one of yes his traits allegedly, and it doesn't even come up, but at the same time, the, ah the person offering their body up, that definitely feels, feels more like a Riker situation.
00:15:43
Speaker
than a Picard one. um Correct. Yes. And so it would have been, you would have had to con ah to convolute the story to make it so that Picard had to take the host in.
00:15:54
Speaker
Right. But you're still, you're still right. That's the more interesting story for sure. A hundred percent. um When they, when they reboot Star Trek, the next generation in 10 years, and we're all shocked, but they'll have 55 minute run times. That's what they'll do.
00:16:08
Speaker
they'll just they'll just make gifs of that um okay and picard won't be bald or he'll be he'll we'll see how he becomes bald in that reboot anyway exactly right jerry taylor said that she was pleased with the final episode she commented i poured a lot of good stuff into it and everything came together it became a wonderful memorable episode for you jerry rest in peace but But also were like, he was a little pushy. Well, we see her. That's her kind of her thing. She is like the bodice ripper romance novel sure kind of writer in that regard. It's very that's like all her Janeway stories are coded in that like Janeway secret secret ah gothic romance kind of stuff.
00:16:51
Speaker
Very soap opera. i must yeah Very opera. Yeah. Despite deeming the original pitch as repulsive, Brandon Braga came around. He said, i end up being the most touching love story.
00:17:02
Speaker
And that's why this show is unique. ah This was the first he's saw I'm sure he's talking about Star Trek in general. And I agree. It's like this is the only story you can do on Star Trek. This is the first Star Trek episode directed by Marvin V. Rush.
00:17:15
Speaker
mark ah Rush was the director of photography. He joined, I believe, the start of season three. um He recalled that much effort went into shooting the episode, so Gates McFadden's late-term pregnancy was always hidden.
00:17:26
Speaker
Jonathan Frakes noted, the episode had to be shot
Impact on Star Trek Canon
00:17:29
Speaker
in such a way that we couldn't see her stomach. They would not address the fact that the actress was pregnant. It was an interesting problem. You really found yourself more concerned with hiding her with furniture or with your body and shooting her from her boobs up.
00:17:41
Speaker
That was very restrictive. Yes, this episode does not... Oh my gosh. Like, here's the thing. There's one particular shot that I always thought was hilarious. And that is when, you know, they had just taken Odon out of Riker's body.
00:17:59
Speaker
Odon is in stasis as a symbiont. And, ah Patrick had to kneel down in such a way that his head blocked her stomach. So while he was looking at the symbiont and I was like, seriously, it's just so dumb. And to find out if no one has read Nana visitors, new book about the women of Trek, ah open a channel.
00:18:21
Speaker
She had mentioned, or Gates had mentioned that the reason why they hid her pregnancy was because Nana beat her to it. They couldn't have two, characters pregnant at the same time, which I was flabbergasted because apparently women can't be pregnant at the same time on two different shows.
00:18:38
Speaker
And I was like, that is ridiculous. They could have created a story around it, but they did that a lot in the 90s, especially hiding pregnancies, hiding behind plants and briefcases and whatever. And as annoying as it is, you know, i think Gates and everyone did the best they could with what they were given.
00:18:58
Speaker
It's unfortunately a sad truth that we deal with now. And it's it's in the entertainment industry, but it's not restrictive to that. It's just if you think about it and then you watch stuff, it comes screaming through. And that is right men treat women like dolls in dollhouses. Right.
00:19:15
Speaker
And once you have that thought in mind when you watch stuff, a lot things snap into place. And it's pretty gross. And it's usually the sign of a small man. And yet the small men are usually most powerful ones. The ones who can deal the most damage to the most people. It's pretty amazing.
00:19:32
Speaker
The initials are being come to mind. For sure. Yeah. I'm just saying. I don't know. ah This is the only episode of TNG g in which an officer on the bridge asks the computer what time it is.
00:19:45
Speaker
just I just thought I'd put that in there because Memory Alpha caught that note. Picard asks the computer how long what the time is to figure out how long ah Riker as Odon has been in negotiations.
00:19:56
Speaker
Right. The episode introduces the trill. Obviously, this isn't how they look in Deep Space Nine. And they're unable to use the transporter. So those are two ah major differences that happen as soon as Deep Space Nine starts.
00:20:07
Speaker
Yeah. just I don't know if you knew this, but Dax, ah Terry Farrell, Jedzie is Dax. She has the spots. And that's how we're like, the trill. They originally for two days shot with the makeup we see here, the Trill look that we see in the host here.
00:20:22
Speaker
And they ditched that. They said it didn't look good. Maybe it's because they didn't make an international model like Terry Farrell look good, which I can believe that as well. um So they changed it to the spots.
00:20:33
Speaker
And also we learn, you know, so they change that. They change the transporter ability, which you could probably retcon into like, well, once the once Starfleet knew what they were dealing with, then they adjusted the transporters.
00:20:46
Speaker
Good by that. Then the other part is what we have learned about the Trill is that it is an extraordinary taboo to revisit your old life.
00:20:57
Speaker
So this idea that Odon would then immediately start pursuing Crusher again in a new body, a new host, is like kind of forbidden. Now, we do learn that's a taboo. there's not It's not totally forbidden.
00:21:13
Speaker
The circumstances here are kind of different. It was an emergency. You know what I mean? yeah The symbion's in a familiar body already. um But also, we get the sense that Odon's personality overwrites Riker.
00:21:26
Speaker
which we also learned that's another change that they make. Like yeah you incorporated it into your personality. And so this is different. Also, it's possible Odon, by being ah intergalactic negotiator, doesn't follow the mores of his people. So I just wanted to bring that all up. But Rejoined, the ah Deep Space Nine episode, really gets at this. And it kind of does the episode that would have been...
00:21:50
Speaker
As interesting as putting in Picard's body is what if the next host was just a woman, you know, and then it's Crusher did instead of having the Riker intermediary. um and That would have been something, too. But that's what rejoined basically does.
00:22:04
Speaker
that's a pretty good episode. I do really enjoy how they change the whole trill. in Deep Space Nine. I do like how they made it. I do like the spots better than how this prosthetic was.
00:22:17
Speaker
And of course, it's the same spots as we saw as the mutant of ah Kamala from The Perfect Mate. That's what she had. And so that's what they decided to use. But I really do enjoy the whole concept that DS9 had created for the trill because here they were just trying to figure it out, which is normal. They're trying to figure out what this alien is.
00:22:39
Speaker
The one thing, the one thing that I wish that they would have kept because I thought the symbiont Odon was beautiful. The colors were gorgeous. thought they should have kept the beautiful symbiont colors. 1980s, early 90s jeweling with the UV light. Exactly.
00:22:56
Speaker
Because when Jadzia, you know, when they were taking out Dax out to put in Kazoo, they got hijacked. It was just is a worm. what like Yeah, alien looking, like literally alien face hugger looking thing. I'm trying to remember if Discovery added them back in a little bit now. I can't remember.
00:23:15
Speaker
I haven't seen Discovery yet, but I do know that the Trill is mentioned. But yeah, I'm curious. Well, we see that then they go into those pools and then they swim away. Like we see them move. Oh, they're all CGI. and I'm trying to remember if they did kind of remodify them back down. I can't remember. I just talked about this one. Anyway.
00:23:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's good. Before we get into the grades, we need to be the ones to be the final decision on this. Odan or Odon? Odon.
00:23:43
Speaker
Okay, but it's interesting that Riker calls him Odan, Picard calls him Odan, and then when Odan is transferred into Riker, Odan as Riker calls himself Odan.
00:24:00
Speaker
Oh, I know. I've always heard people say it differently all the time, but I was like, oh, Dan just doesn't. i don't know. Doesn't really roll off the tongue, in my opinion. But, oh, Don,
Episode Execution: Strengths and Weaknesses
00:24:11
Speaker
that's just Crusher calls him. Oh, Don. And he calls himself, oh, Don.
00:24:15
Speaker
and um And so the original actor. OK, now, no. Yes. The next one. Pellierzel or Pellierzel. but This is the dispute planet and it gets two different pronunciations as well.
00:24:31
Speaker
So I believe Picard calls it Peleurzel. Peleurzel. And then I believe everyone else calls it Peleurzel. It's Peliar, then. P-E-L-I-A-R space Z-E-L, which is a cool alien sounding name. And I like ah Patrick Stewart's British pronunciation of P-E-L-I-A-R.
00:24:54
Speaker
i And I think that's the problem, because originally data was supposed to be data until... you know, Patrick said data instead. And they're like, Oh, we'll keep it. And then that's how it changed.
00:25:04
Speaker
So what what's a bummer is that they, not a bummer. What they should have done though, is like, all right, his name is data. So now whenever you're talking about sense, sensor data, it then that should be data.
00:25:17
Speaker
So, yes but they didn't do that switch because it's for some reason across all the tracks, everyone knows to pronounce it sensor. Yeah. Like everyone, like Lower Decks makes that joke. But if you go back and listen, it's not until Voyager maybe that they start getting a little slack.
00:25:34
Speaker
But even in Deep Space Nine, they're doing censors. Censors. Oh, my gosh. But I do appreciate Patrick Stewart saying lieutenant instead of lieutenant. I know it was probably hard for him. Thank you.
00:25:46
Speaker
But he did say sexual all the time where I was like, yes, that's OK. It's fine. All right. I forgive him. All right, let's get into the grades. We're going to start with great scenes. Why you kick us off? I have four or five. So how many do you have? yeah Four or five.
00:26:01
Speaker
Honestly, i have the one. Well, i already mentioned one and I have a couple here, but i i'm already mentioned one, which was between Beverly and Troy and 10 forward when she was really trying to explain, like, what do I do? And Troy, even though she she does have feelings for Riker and she adores Riker, she knew the difference. This wasn't Riker. This was O'Donne.
00:26:23
Speaker
ah But my favorite scene was Picard and Beverly, him seeing her distraught and he was there for her. This is really the only time that we ever see Picard actually kind of showcases jealousy. And i'm doing quotes here a little bit because he's like, oh, she's in love with, with Odon. And kind of was like ah a little twinge there for him, but he was there for her as a friend gave her. And she,
00:26:50
Speaker
accepted it and they hugged and he was concerned and he was even concerned later when he was like you need to get some sleep and she's like no I'm going to wait right so I absolutely enjoyed them showcasing that little bit with Picard having feelings for Beverly and then just being there for her as a friend so those were my favorites um I thought great scenes start with the teaser.
00:27:14
Speaker
I'm pretty sure everyone has the same reaction to seeing Odon's belly expand and contract. Yeah. But also that's a good way to go to credits, but also good for Dr. Crusher getting some action and, and and l LOL data getting in the middle of something he doesn't understand interrupting.
00:27:32
Speaker
And then them just being able to trick a computer into leaving them alone. I think that's great. but day He's a data blocker. That's right. um i think the first observation lounge scene is actually pretty great it's one that the seasons three and four are probably the ones maybe parts of season five but like there is a high point in star trek the star trek that we all that the pop culture has embraced and it's basically seasons three and four of tng g now we're dar hard fans know it's the best episode seasons are it's like two three four five and then it
00:28:07
Speaker
It's like a bell curve for the next generation. But this is a really cool scene because it explains what the conflict is between Alpha Moon and Beta Moon of this planet Pilyer Zell.
00:28:21
Speaker
he years ah ah And it's kind of one we should be familiar with. Basically, i it seems like... A bunch of rich people fucked off the main planet because they were sick of living there and they established their own Elysiums.
00:28:37
Speaker
Elysium one and Elysium two. right and Elysium one figures out we can draw power from the planet. Oh, but oh, well, it'll be in ah planet to Elysium two will get in the way sometimes and it will kill that planet over time.
00:28:52
Speaker
So this is like a rich people squabble, but it will lead to war. It feels very familiar. That's all. And I thought it was a really nice scene to set up what the stakes were. I thought the the actor, the woman who plays the Pellierzel planet representative that's kind of helping the overview is really good. She's like really authoritative, like a really nice natural presence.
00:29:13
Speaker
But I also like the business going on of Crusher coming in from one entrance, Odon coming in from the other one. Troy's wondering, like, where have you been? And then very quickly realizing that we started giving the look of like, ah, I got it. Good for you. Yeah. We also have Troy doing the Troy thing of like expressing the Picard privately after everyone leaves. Like not sure about the Soudan. I get weird feelings from him, which is great yeah because then in it's like almost the next scene where we get Crusher and Troy in the salon.
00:29:41
Speaker
It's my next great scene. It's in the it's in the promos. Beverly, you're in love. Like that's like what that's something i remember from childhood. And just you've been glowing. i think that's a great scene between the two of them. I know when I think about the history of Star Trek, I'm like, I don't think it's until seven of nine and Captain Janeway in Voyager that the Bechdel test is finally passed in Star Trek.
00:30:03
Speaker
Like it's like season four of Star Trek yeah Voyager that it comes in. But in any case, it's like a it's like a nice scene between the two of them. It's pretty well acted. It's kind of cartoonishly hiding Gates McFadden's pregnancy as well. no But it's still kind of funny. I think it's a great scene because it's also Trey immediate not holding back. A lot of TV is a lot of.
00:30:24
Speaker
a lot of drama is created by withholding or lying. And here it's just Troy's immediately expressing her concerns in a friendly way. um And I thought that was a ah solid scene. Just like you' been you're in love, you're glowing, everyone can tell. And Crusher's a little embarrassed, but it's also, in a way, it's kind of permission-like.
00:30:43
Speaker
Right. For her to do this, which is very important along the way for what happens. I think the sick bay scene where after the accident where Crusher discovers the symbiont, because I think it's great. It's like a cool like we as the audience now like, oh, she's going to find out what's going to happen.
00:31:02
Speaker
And it I think it's great Gates McFadden is really great at conveying sci fi shock. what is that you know i yeah the only other time that immediately jumps to mind that was like genesis when she sees the venom sack on wharf but it's like gaze mcfadden's so game for everything that it's great when she reacts to something instead of just as in the background because she's not a main character in that scene which i unfortunately happens too often but i do often you have no idea yeah But I, so I thought that was great. I thought it was a great, like little dramatic moment. And then I, that just to go back to that 10 forward scene when she's telling the silly story about her first love and then ask Troy for advice. Do you think it's good advice?
00:31:46
Speaker
Because Troy's offering it like first, maybe it's just the way she gets into it by saying the first man I ever fell in love with was my dad. And she tells this very sweet story and all that stuff. But I kind of think at the end, I'm very questionable. Her advice is basically like I would give anything to have my father back in any way. And so if Odon exists, even though it's in the shell of Will Riker,
00:32:08
Speaker
and you could still receive those feelings, maybe you shouldn't turn that down. is It's kind of very Star Trek, but I don't know. Is it great advice? You know, i think for in Troy's defense in this ah area is because she had been feeling how happy Beverly was this whole time, right? That's why she did little jokey jabs to her in the salon and stuff like that. As much as she was letting her know her concern of like, how well do you really know him? She was very happy for her friend. And now of a sudden her friend is so sad and conflicted. Right, and wishing I'd never felt this way about him. yeah Exactly. denying it entirely.
00:32:48
Speaker
She didn't want to lose, you know, she didn't want her friend to lose that happiness. And so she's like, give it a shot. Like, don't give up. Right. Don't just throw it away because it is.
00:33:00
Speaker
And, you know, it's Riker O'Don instead of, you know, male O'Don. OK, like. try it. If it doesn't work out, at least, you know, don't just try and just throw it all away just because it changed. And so i i don't, I think her advice um was really just coming from a place of, of, of being a friend and concern.
00:33:21
Speaker
And so I give kudos to Troy in this episode for sure, because Beverly was definitely her concern. I think seasons three and four are kind of the last time that Troy is exceptionally interesting. And then after that, once the, once the bros took over the writing staff, they didn't know what to do with her. And it stinks because Marina Sirtis is one of the best actors.
00:33:44
Speaker
I think she's the second best actor on the cast after Patrick Stewart, that the Troy scenes are hard to write, but they're, they're so rewarding and she does it so well. And um so, yeah, I kind of agree with you. It's just like, it's kind of hard to,
00:33:58
Speaker
It's not difficult to go along with. I guess it's kind of hard to accept in our current status. shit like this idea This is something that would never happen
00:34:08
Speaker
to me. Very true. Very true. and My last great scene, i have to say it because I do this with when we talk about Lower Decks all the time. There are things that Lower Decks does that I...
00:34:21
Speaker
Just hate. And sometimes they're like, but you need it because it's a cartoon in a sitcom. So it's already begging you to not take it that seriously. And then it also has like a backup. But we're Star Trek, so we're meaningful.
00:34:33
Speaker
But anyway, sometimes they will do stuff to get into a more meatier idea. And I'll have to just be like, I don't like the scene, but gosh darn it, I respect what it's doing. And I think as much as people might dislike the last scene, I think it's a great scene because it is dramatic.
00:34:51
Speaker
I think Kirill O'Don, the woman, she's reacting to every moment of that in a subtle way for TV yeah where she's hurting every time Crusher is making it clear.
00:35:03
Speaker
Crusher is trying to close every door. She's like, you're not getting I'm out. And ah and I think there's something very painful about it. I think Crusher generalizing her personal feelings to the human experience is actually ah very it's a thing people do.
00:35:24
Speaker
Yeah, know she's like, you know, instead of saying like, well, I can't accept that. She's like, well, that's a human problem to kind of diffuse the actual tension of the moment. Right. Because she's trying
Character Dynamics and Highlights
00:35:34
Speaker
to make it. It's the alienness of it all. That's so strange when we know that's not entirely true.
00:35:40
Speaker
And I think you're right. It was just too much for Beverly. Yeah, at the end. And that's what makes was. But that's what makes it so seems I think if you walk out of that scene or when the episode because that's the last scene of the episode and the the musical chord is bittersweet. It's not even sweet.
00:35:57
Speaker
It's kind of a down note. And so I think the episode is if you don't feel anything watching that scene, I mean. if you're on the spectrum of LGBTQ plus, whatever it is, like ah if you're straight, because you're just like a normal heteronormative person and you're like, yeah if you don't feel anything, I think there's perhaps a reevaluation. I think it's a dramatic scene that packs a punch.
00:36:21
Speaker
And depending on your POV, it that punch hits you in different ways. So, yeah, I was surprised by the number of great scenes, but maybe that's just a credit to Jerry Taylor.
00:36:32
Speaker
Which is a little bummer that Jerry Taylor could only write in that one lane, that they'd only let her go nuts in that one lane. Right? Right. Like, well, Jerry will write the lady love stuff.
00:36:43
Speaker
Yeah. We could have probably had some great other stuff if they just would have allowed it. Yep. You're totally right, though. We don't even get in. This episode could have gone in so many different ways. I'm not against what the way it went in.
00:36:56
Speaker
But it's like, yeah, that is Riker. And Troy has a relationship with Riker. And Riker fucks Dr. Crusher, which we don't talk about. and it And that's the Star Trek of it, where Troy's like, that's fine. If you want to fuck...
00:37:09
Speaker
Will, I don't care. want you to be happy. Yeah. But I mean, because Troy knows that that's Odon and it's not Riker. And I think that's where, um you know, she just wants... And even... She already knows that Riker's fucking so many different alien species anyways. It's like, she's already just like, hey, go for it. Just, you know, she just wanted her friend to be happy.
00:37:34
Speaker
um And I think the other part of this, for that last scene, especially... That is, I don't know, progressive is not the right word, but it's it's a very Star Trek tradition of like, okay, that's you are, I accept you for who you are.
00:37:45
Speaker
Right? Like there's no denial of identity along any of the the path. She says, I don't know who you are because she doesn't understand. And this is hard for her to wrap her head around, but she's not like disagreeing. He's trying to, and he explains, I didn't put that as a great scene, but I think it's a great idea, which maybe we'll talk about later.
00:38:03
Speaker
So best Trek tropes. I have several. yes everyone I picked just, I have two for best. And the first one I'm going to mention is the introduction of a new species.
00:38:17
Speaker
And I think in this case with the trill, again, they were trying to figure it out. They were trying to do different things. Some hit, some were missed. And that, but it paved that way to have amazing characters like Jed Zia.
00:38:32
Speaker
Right. So I think that is a huge, huge, huge win because when you introduce, i mean, hit or miss, right. When they've introduced different alien species, let's say for that, that fish one in season two that had ah the favorite, I can't think of his name right now.
00:38:51
Speaker
um But we would yes, miss. Right. total miss i Went for it. Not a good, not worked out. Or even the um where it was like the the wolf species versus the amphibian species that were going after each other that one season, one episode. And again, missed. But this one had depth. This was a really great idea about having a symbiont and.
00:39:16
Speaker
you know, ah ah can't think of a host. um And I think that was a very, very interesting story. They just needed to de polish it a little bit. But I'm going to draft off that a little bit because of mine. One of mine was an alien isn't what they seem to be, but they're benevolent or they're they're not like antagonistic.
00:39:36
Speaker
This is a very story tradition of Star Trek of like you could the music. it kind of is this horror idea of like, oh, what kind of creatures in there? It could be a bad thing. And it's like it's not it's neither good nor bad.
00:39:47
Speaker
It simply exists. Right. And that is a Star Trek idea for sure. So I'm with you on that. And that's literally what Odon had said, because she was like, why didn't you tell me? He's all like, do you tell people you're a single? Yes.
00:40:02
Speaker
No, because that's who you are. Why would I do it? was perfect. It was a like i was like, she's right. like um The other one I have to say is, of course, diplomatic emergency.
00:40:14
Speaker
yeah okay These two warring factors are right here and they need that ambassador to come in and save the day. And we've seen some good ones and we've seen some not so good ones, but between...
00:40:26
Speaker
the beta and the alpha moon and finding out. And I loved actually this point, finding out that, oh, Don has been the one doing it this whole time. he was just a different host.
00:40:37
Speaker
i was like, that's clever. That's clever. I like that, but definitely diplomatic emergency. But I also kind of we'll talk about it, but but it's also my worst, but I'll explain I think we actually are sit we're very parallel in that because I put it as peace negotiations.
00:40:55
Speaker
um I think the fact that Riker is willing to sacrifice his body to prevent a war. i mean, wow. But I feel we live in a world that has not only decided but declared that peace is impossible.
00:41:09
Speaker
And it's sad times. And I kind of think it's an idea that I think our cultural situation, i'm talking globally, ah but maybe maybe more the United States, right? We're in this forever war since 9-11.
00:41:23
Speaker
um I kind of think that's what's going to consign Star Trek to being a relic of the 20th century. It's a sad thought, but this is kind of like a foundational Trek trope piece. What a concept. And just the idea that we can negotiate a truce or a ceasefire, that it was so important that the flagship of the Federation would like...
00:41:44
Speaker
you know, move heaven and earth to use no better term um to make sure it happens. I think that's pretty profound. You had no more other best trick jokes. I'm sorry. What you to say? No, i was just going to say that that was Roddenberry's dream.
00:41:58
Speaker
Yeah. Is to have that piece. And the one thing that they, of course, had to showcase was that, you know, the Federation or at least Earth, of course, you know, just figured out how to get along.
00:42:11
Speaker
But there are other planets in the universe that have not learned that yet. And that was the whole point of this concept is just to figure out how to get along. And so um I think this was just a good representation of that.
00:42:27
Speaker
And I think, again, Riker... being so Starfleet, such the ideals of this 24th century human being, he's willing to put his body on the line. He's putting his money where his mouth is basically.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah. My other best trick tropes, personal logs. I really liked Dr. Crusher's log opening the episode. liked the little triumphant note when we hear mention of Wesley doing well at the Starfleet Academy, but I don't know. I guess McFadden is such like a,
00:42:57
Speaker
you know you when the episode is given to her she's like uh the all the cast can hold their own they can lead a show i don't think every star trek series that can be said the same but as the chief medical officer you know like she has an extra level of authority and gets with that and plays it off very well so it's like nice um sometimes the logs aren't always the best truck jokes but thought was fine it was good setup right ah Discomfort with the transporter. I think here, you know, it's not just Dr. McCoy being worried about scattering his molecules. It's like a story point.
00:43:32
Speaker
Troy senses something again. ah Sometimes that's the worst truck trope. I think it's good here. It's it's just like it it helps her be the ship's counselor, but also a friend.
00:43:43
Speaker
So I thought that was like a nice use of it. And it again, another story point. Something's off about this. Oh, Don, he seems to have be of many minds. um Which she doesn't say, but that's what she's feeling, right?
00:43:55
Speaker
Right. All of the private prior Odon hosts. Does she say, like, conflicted? Yeah, something like that. Right? Something like that? yep yeah Flings! Flings! I guess I could have put trysts or sexual things, but, you know, look we can think about all the many years. Remember that time Silicon Avatar, Rikers on the planet, they're setting up the colony and he clearly had hooked up with the the colony leader. It's like, yeah. And here's my here's my thing about her. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is why it's the best trick joke.
00:44:25
Speaker
Space travel is an external pressure that we as normies here on earth rarely consider, but these are a bunch of nerds in a metal tube during research, warping across the galaxy, ah fresh meat into their ecosystem is going to be met with either flight or fuck responses. So that's right to me. Like we don't give enough appreciation to that, that,
00:44:50
Speaker
You know, he was on the ship for a while. It was a long war. They got to know each other pretty quickly. They were immediately attracted to each other. That's fine. It all makes sense to me. So I like that. I understand i it's also a 26 episode season. You need to figure out how you're going to get from A to B to C. So it's TV um shortcuts, which is fine. But I think it's fun as a best track trope, too. It's like, how are they falling in love so fast? like, they're on a spaceship, baby.
00:45:14
Speaker
and but's the all acts therefore So they don't all get space madness. But then when new people come on the ship, maybe they'll come up with them. That's totally normal. um I think the 24th century humans acceptance of death, which is a Gene Ranbury idea, which came to like an argument point in the bonding, which is Ron Moore's first script.
00:45:34
Speaker
But Crusher doesn't seem all that broken up about Odon dying right in the observation lounge scene. She's playing it pretty straight. There's no hint of emotion. It could be an acting choice, but it's more like people die. That's just part of life.
00:45:46
Speaker
And I kind of like it here as a best Trek joke because... just keeping in mind Roddenberry's rule, like, no, we won't grieve, which is a stupid idea, by the way, Gene Roddenberry. If someone you care about dies, it's not going to be like, you're not going to read a book and be fine, which is like his idea. Quit your whining.
00:46:04
Speaker
But the this sticks to that idea, that the workaround, the loophole that Michael Piller figured out, which is like, but Gene, what if an alien disrupted that natural grieving process that we've all arrived at?
00:46:17
Speaker
And Gene Roddenberry's like, that is acceptable. And they're just doing that here. And it's great. It's like good drama. So I appreciated that. um Laser scalp um scalpels. Who wouldn't like to have laser scalpels? They make surgery seem so easy.
00:46:32
Speaker
And somehow they immediately suture the wound while opening. So there's no blood. There's no blood. You open up someone's abdomen and nothing comes out. um This is a late addition. Well, first all, Riker sleeps with everybody.
00:46:46
Speaker
Got to put that in there. That's the best trick joke. And this was a late ad because am I paused it on my fourth rewatch and I just, it hit like several instances hit me at the same time.
00:46:58
Speaker
Riker on a hospital bed. Got shades gray, first contact, future imperfect. Genesis, he's sitting up because spotted scratched him.
00:47:09
Speaker
ah Was there one where he had spikes in his back? He like was put the moves on. Someone and he rolled over in the Arboretum and he got a bunch of needles. That was Genesis. um Genesis. Okay. Wasn't where spot scratched him.
00:47:23
Speaker
That was the one where the Enterprise was frozen. um um um where Was that? and was that ah Oh, that was cause and effect. Okay. No, not cause and effect. This was the one where Troy, Picard, Geordi, and Data were out of time and everything was frozen with the Romulans. Yeah, that was the beginning. I can't think of the episode.
00:47:46
Speaker
um And then they had to play those armbands. But yeah. So Freaks is, I just think that Jonathan Freaks is really good at making Riker brave. And also he's a really good damsel in distress. He sure is.
Technical and Narrative Evaluation
00:48:02
Speaker
He sure is the best kind. Which is why people love casting Chris Pine in things. He's like, this guy's cool. He can be tough, but he's also very good at being like, ah, help me. So it's it's good stuff. ah Worst Trek tropes. You said you had a couple or you had maybe more.
00:48:19
Speaker
I have a couple actually, but first off, I wanted to actually mention this because you brought this to my attention when it was saying, oh we shouldn't have a emotion, right? Because Beverly really wasn't showcasing her emotion over Odon's passing, at least for the host.
00:48:32
Speaker
um I remember a certain time that ah the original scene in the first duty when Beverly finds out that Wesley had almost died in the accident,
00:48:44
Speaker
um It was actually more emotion. She was more distraught. She was more upset. And they were actually doing it in her quarters. And it was a brilliant way it was written. And then it was, I think, Ronald B. Moore had had had done it.
00:48:58
Speaker
D. Moore. And um he was told, oh no, no, no, she can't be that emotional. They they they don't do that in the 21st century. And he's like, a mom can't react to her son almost dying.
00:49:11
Speaker
OK. And so they had to change it into what we got.
00:49:16
Speaker
So that's what just reminded me of that, where it was like, no emotion. People die all the time. Okay. Sure. But as my worst track trope, going back to that deployment, the emergency, um as much as like, you know, Roddenberry was, you know, Jean was very much of like, peace, we're all good, no wars, blah, blah, blah.
00:49:39
Speaker
It's good to see that we see that not everyone is perfect, but I felt like maybe it showed too much because that was all the time, right? the The enterprise had to go in and swoop in and help people out. and And, you know, of course they had the prime directives. We can't do this, but then we have this and it's like, okay, well,
00:49:56
Speaker
this is a lot of work, right? They kind of showcase a little too much of, of how some worlds just do not get along.
00:50:07
Speaker
um That's why I think the rich people's conflict is like a better explanation for what's going on there. but You did, you did change my mind on that aspect. Yes. I could totally see that.
00:50:19
Speaker
I actually put the transporter with Odon as one of the worst because And maybe just because I loved how they changed it in DS night. and And you even said like, maybe they were just like, oh, they fixed it. Right. So we have this species, the trail where it's like, oh, they can't do it. Let's do a little change.
00:50:38
Speaker
But it was just so like,
00:50:42
Speaker
Riker's all like, we're about to die. Transporter is now. And all of a sudden he's like, no, no, you can't. OK, I guess I'll land. And i was like, how did how did that change? oh you you reminded me that another great Riker trope that Riker is a great pilot.
00:50:58
Speaker
And they actually make it a point to have Geordi say, Riker wants to pilot you himself. And, you know, and and the idea, it seems like very few people in the Enterprise is like, the shuttle's breaking up, we've got to have someone pilot in.
00:51:12
Speaker
Well, okay, Riker, theoretically, I guess, if he's such a great pilot, he could do it But you're totally right. At the same time, you're still, you're totally right. Trucks can be good and bad. That's totally fair. Yeah, exactly. my trick trip along those lines was, shuttles be crashing. Yeah.
00:51:26
Speaker
Shut up. at Which, you know, it doesn't crash here, but it's like as soon as someone gets in a shuttlecraft, like that shuttle is not going last. and um And sure enough, i I think it's a bad trope also because I'm not sure, like the Enterprise has to be really lazy and they really were.
00:51:43
Speaker
Like they hadn't innovated the idea that you could extend the shields yet or maybe they... it seemed like a rarity. And then the later seasons, they're always like extend the shields, but like in, in this point, they didn't do that, but they weren't like following closely.
00:51:58
Speaker
They weren't on yellow alert. Cause they were so indicating like, Tensions are high. There could be... Someone was chasing them. Exactly. So it's the flagship of the... like The Enterprise can take on most ships. I don't know. It's a worst trek trope because it's like so perfunctory. It's like so whatever.
00:52:17
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. My other worst trek trope goes kind of along to the first one that you said about everyone having problems in that it's about the negotiations. Instinctual negotiators. Yeah. So I can only recall loud as a whisper, but I feel like it's happened more often where you get this famous diplomat who's negotiated, brokered peace so many times over the years with such warring factions. And always like, how do you do it?
00:52:43
Speaker
What are you going to do? He's like, I don't know. i'm just going to wing it when I get in there. Just going to see what the vibes are, see what the mood is. Man of the People, where Troy got old, right? Oh, I hate that episode. But yeah, he was like, I got this. And yes, we knew why. it seems like every... I think it's a disconnect between, you know, ah it's kind of boring TV drama to get like an actual expert into the room to explain what is how a successful negotiation even begins.
00:53:14
Speaker
But it's also like, it seems like the TV writers don't really care to know. And so it seems more fun to cowboy up, but it's just like... Yeah. No, for sure. It's like whenever you see a top negotiator in Star Trek, they always start with, I'm just going to wing it.
00:53:30
Speaker
So... They're like a Will Ferrell character suddenly. i don't know. Sounds crazy. see Have a beer. Maybe they'll figure it out. Maybe they'll figure it And the thing is, is like it's just like less writing. We'll just write this and we're done.
00:53:43
Speaker
It's fine. I'm going to add real fast, though, to the worst trope. I'm going to say real fast that the um um um um the replicator not knowing. always just thought this was weird because he was like, can I have this trill type drink?
00:53:58
Speaker
We don't understand that. And he's like, i forget it. And i was all like, Aren't they supposed to know? Like, couldn't he just like put the recipe in like this and then it'll make it? i don't know. I always found that to be so weird when it was like, we don't know this drink. and Well, it just goes to that we know so very little about the Trill.
00:54:15
Speaker
And i guess and i I guess my only thought was he's been there for two weeks. What has he been eating? very Thank you. Thank you. thank you guess try and be, you know, Earthlings the same time, i guess if I were to emotionally try to explain it, he's in such a state of ah distress that he's something he drank as a child, something that reminds him very distinctly of home and being safe.
00:54:39
Speaker
And that that's like a drink that can be like basically like, can I have a Coke, please? And the computer's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Shut up. slept Forget it. Forget it. I'm done. No, I was actually thinking of our a harder drink instead of a... Yeah, that's fair enough. Fair enough. yeah They have the synthahol crap. I need the real deal.
00:55:00
Speaker
What's the divorce guy's drink of choice on Trill? I need that right now. Now for the cosplay,
Concluding Thoughts on 'The Host'
00:55:08
Speaker
definitely Riker Odon. That was easy. Riker O'Don, that's better. I just had O'Don with his his is ah shirt open and then then you would have the stomach undulating.
00:55:19
Speaker
That's good. That's better though. Someone doing, just putting nice a beard on and then pajamas. And silk pajamas. yeah Hell yeah. And you know what? Seeing them walk in and be like, I know who you are.
00:55:33
Speaker
And then would you be, I'm William T. O'Don? take take I just say Riker O'Don. I think it just has a nice flow to it. Yeah. ah Now it's time for the line, Mr. Jordan.
00:55:47
Speaker
Great lines. um Actually, it was the ending line for Beverly was ah perhaps someday our ability to love won't be so limited. I think it was brilliantly said. I think it it hit all points of just How Beverly was feeling at that moment.
00:56:06
Speaker
She does say, i do love you. um She just couldn't commit to the changes. And so she was just like saying, maybe one day, you know, it will it will be so limited. So I love I loved that ending. And um I thought that was a brilliant line that she had said.
00:56:24
Speaker
I liked some of Odon's lines. Do you know when I first met the formidable Dr. Beverly, what, 10 days ago, I thought to myself, this woman is ice through to her bones.
00:56:35
Speaker
Who would have ever guessed that instead of ice, there is fire. I mean, this is romance stuff, but we need to we need to make it clear these two are deeply into each other. This is yeah very strong.
00:56:46
Speaker
ah Then you may go, Dr. Beverly. It's just Beverly. not just Beverly. It's Beverly's smile. It's her kindness. It's her beauty within and without so much more than just Beverly.
00:56:57
Speaker
don't know. and This is good airport romance novel writing. And you already mentioned this. I liked Riker as O'Don, his line about two people. This is all new to me.
00:57:10
Speaker
It is new to me as well. Please don't go. We've got to talk about this. i don't know what to say. Nor do i But I know that the silence would injure us. Well, maybe you should have thought about that sooner.
00:57:22
Speaker
Maybe you should have told me what you were. It didn't seem to bother you to remain silent yesterday. with It never occurred to me. This is what I am. Did you ever tell me that you were only a single being?
00:57:34
Speaker
Of course not. That was normal to you. I don't know who you are. so I don't know. I mean, I could have put... I didn't put it as great scenes, but I thought the writing overall was pretty strong.
00:57:46
Speaker
the The negotiation scenes we do see, I thought were not interesting or like fantastic, but very solid with some really good performances behind them to give it all some sort of weight.
00:57:57
Speaker
And it's also... the tension of how is Frakes going to play this? And he's playing it basically like I'm cool. Everything's fine. And then as soon as they leave the room, he's like, I've been, I'm shitting my pants. It's not going to pass out. This is not happening. Yeah.
00:58:13
Speaker
Would this have been a fun hollow novel to play out Jesse? If it was Picard. Yes. So yes, that is an angle people can take. What character in this would you play?
00:58:25
Speaker
i just put maybe the sex part and I don't know if like i I'm Riker. If you like if you play Riker, you get to pilot a shuttle. You get to then take in a slug and change your personality, negotiate a truce.
00:58:38
Speaker
Fuck Dr. Crusher. Like there's a lot you get to do in this episode. but Yeah, it is very true. Riker had a lot going on in this episode, for sure. I don't think he realized all that was going to entail, um especially the ah fucking Beverly part when he took on the job but of ah being a host for Odon. history remembers this as a Dr. Crusher episode, which is fair. But I think in reevaluating it, it is a stealth top 15 Riker episode, perhaps.
00:59:10
Speaker
which is kind of ridiculous to think about, but it's actually just like more of a credit to Jonathan Frakes performance. But the Anton Crittian Award for best performance, I did not mean that. That's like an accidental transition. I forgot that was nice.
00:59:22
Speaker
But who would you give it to? i might be saying Jonathan Frakes, but I might agree with you if it's different. um Well, I wouldn't be Crusher Convo if I didn't say this, but it's definitely going to Beverly.
00:59:34
Speaker
I think Gates really played it very well. I want to talk about her total performance, but I do want to say like Jonathan Frakes is actually very, very good in this episode. And it's like seasons, season two, three, and four Riker.
00:59:49
Speaker
I don't know what's going on with Jonathan Frakes. out i I have come to love Jonathan Frakes. I think he's the mayor of Star Trek. But as a kid growing up, I was like, Riker, whatever, Picard, number one. And in the later season, six and seven, he just turns into like this bellowing kind of one note character.
01:00:06
Speaker
And in the movies, he's kind of that, too. There's like no subtlety to Riker. And in seasons three, like best of both worlds doesn't work if Jonathan Frakes is not giving a great performance as Riker. Right. Like that's a very nuanced thing here.
01:00:20
Speaker
And here he's like really acting. And I was just surprised by it. So now let's just talk about Gates McFadden because he's the honorable mention. I agree. Yes. And the thing is, is that Gates had like you had mentioned earlier, her her emotional scale for Beverly was going up and down constantly.
01:00:38
Speaker
where she had the feelings, but it's in Riker's body. And she had to react to how different this was. And, um you know, she even meant, like I said, she even mentioned that Riker was a big brother and this was just weird to her, but she just didn't know what to do. So the conflict that Gates had to perform just showed beautifully. And that's why I also loved that scene with Picard and him giving her the hug.
01:01:03
Speaker
because you could just tell that that weight kind of went off of her shoulders when he had asked her like, how are you? Because she was so focused on, you know, Riker and Odon being in Riker and then the whole wariness of fight that she was not paying attention to herself.
01:01:22
Speaker
And he was. And Troy was, too, differently. But he was all like, I am your friend and I'm here for you, no matter what that means. And you could just kind of see the weight just come off of her in that moment where she just needed a hug.
01:01:38
Speaker
She just didn't know what to do. She was just conflicted. And in Star Trek, that's a quite an unusual gesture, which actually yeah doesn't, it's weird to see, but it shouldn't be in the Gene Roddenberry rules, a hug as a way of, okay, now you're feeling better. It actually makes a lot of sense that contact would do something.
01:01:59
Speaker
So I also want to add that I think that acting while pregnant is incredibly difficult. And yes I, having listened to, Gates McFadden talk about, you know, the dancing, the clowning, all that stuff.
01:02:13
Speaker
She was robbed of the opportunity and she complained that her big love episode she's pregnant and has to hide behind stuff. She can only use her face and her voice to convey all her emotions. She could not be physical. She couldn't use her physicality.
01:02:27
Speaker
And that that is inherently limiting, even though it's a four three screen. It's the old TV box that she would have been working in. You just know in her performance that she would have loved to have been able to move around.
01:02:40
Speaker
Like so much of what makes Sub Rosa work is how she moves in it. So much of documentary pressure in the later seasons, especially it's in how she moves her body. And it's like, it's, it's a great performance, not ah with that as like a handicap, the pregnancy, but being like, being able to act through it to convey what she's going through is really tough. And it's, it's not like super hot because it's so up close, but like,
01:03:06
Speaker
it's conveying like this is a side of Dr. Kresher we've never seen before i and she's known for it so i thought that I agree with you so then the Shatner which what do you think the Shatner means well Overly doing it a little bit over acting in some things. You got one or two takes. Right.
01:03:28
Speaker
I OK. I love Jonathan. I love Jonathan Frakes. I really do. I think in some aspects he kind of overdid a little.
01:03:40
Speaker
and And one particular shot comes to mind, and that was the one in 10-4 that I love between Troy and Beverly. But as they're zooming in onto his face, so just the blank dumb Riker face that he makes many times at the series is always stupid. Yeah.
01:03:59
Speaker
It just didn't work for me. It seemed creepy. It's the sad golden retriever face. That's what it is. Exactly. It's like the old Yeller. I'm about to get a shot face. It's just like, I'm not into that. I mean, especially because they went from Gates's face being very emotionally heavy. And his face doesn't match his face.
01:04:20
Speaker
oh Okay, but can I make, okay, I don't like disagreeing with my guests, but can I, so I'm not going to, but I want to make an argument and see if I can get you to agree with me.
01:04:32
Speaker
What makes that moment laughable, because I agree with you, that's the act out too, like that's ridiculous, is my Shatner, and that's Jay Chataway's score.
01:04:45
Speaker
That it's the score, it's the music cue that makes it all even funnier. And the music throughout this episode is so...
01:04:56
Speaker
I'm going to say not bombastic, but like, it's so soapy, so melodramatic. So yes conveying that like the, I like the flourish of the triumphant note when Wesley's mentioned in the opening, like he passed his class it's like fine, but it's like throughout the episode, it is doing the big soapy sweeping music that um I think is a little too much. I think, or it's really going for it. i think it's trying, it's trying to sell something. Yeah.
01:05:25
Speaker
ah So putting those two together, it was just Shatner all the way. That's right. That's right. Yeah. but I could agree with that. okay i because I could definitely agree with that. All right. So we'll go with that.
01:05:36
Speaker
I don't i didn't have the my, my honorable mention. I mean, I like, I do like when people just spotlight moments, but I like to kind of give can whole performances. And my honorable mention after the score was actually Frank Lutz who plays O'Don.
01:05:50
Speaker
So his his, I don't like to criticize people's death scenes, but he's really, ah please, please, Dr. Bethle, you have to say. Very true. I have to agree. Yeah. Yeah.
01:06:03
Speaker
right. Shoot to thrill most exciting image or sequence. I already mentioned this by accident, but the thing was, was again, the symbiote looked awesome.
01:06:13
Speaker
The colorful jewels, like you mentioned, loved it. I thought with its breathing in and air, I was like, that is such a cool scene. But that I really tell you that when you watch that, when it originally aired, the juuling and the UV lighting, not abundantly clear.
01:06:30
Speaker
because people were watching it on standard def and over antenna. And I did not remember that. It wasn't until HD. I was like, oh, wow, they really bejeweled this. ah Pluto sometimes have it as standard ah definition. And yeah, it looks very, mute it's very muted, extremely muted.
01:06:49
Speaker
But I think they did elevate the colors, obviously. But iir I swear that that shot where Patrick's head is blocking Gates shot. cracks me up every single time.
01:07:00
Speaker
You can see the UV light, though, because it spills on the nurse Ogawa's uniform when they're doing the surgery. So that's what I put as the I agree with you. That's the most exciting image or sequence was the operation to install Odon in Riker.
01:07:14
Speaker
um i It's also this weird alienness of like, how is this working? It's descending into Riker's open stomach. That was weird and unpleasant so can to think about. but And she's like, how do you feel? And he's like, fine. And I'm like, what?
01:07:31
Speaker
It's moving his intestines around. and I don't think they've ever made that clear about how it connects in that sense. In DMZ9, they just do like a slit and it's like they're shoving it in there. kind like squirming into this little pocket, like a little pouch.
01:07:49
Speaker
And this one, she's like, his stomach, it's ah it's a vertical incision. And He just goes right in like a little so like a little kangaroo in a pouch. Yeah.
01:08:01
Speaker
Yeah. This one, it's like he's lowering into the pool in in the host in Deep Space Nine. It's like it's get in there. Oh, now that's what I'm going to see every time I see it. So he's lowering himself in the pool. That's funny.
01:08:19
Speaker
What part of this will he teach at Starfleet Academy? Control transplant. ah Yeah, but well, it's Deep Sea Stein kind of suggests that we they didn't learn that much about the trill.
01:08:30
Speaker
Like there's still quite a lot we don't know about the trill. come to That is true. But I feel like this was this pretty sure the very first time, obviously, because yeah she had to figure it out. And And that happens a lot with Beverly. She's like, well, I'll figure it out. We'll see how it goes. And then somehow it's in you know some magazine for for for medical people.
01:08:49
Speaker
But the thing is, is that since this was the first one, I'm assuming that and she could only write what she experienced. And after a while, as they were going on, it got better and better and better. So I feel like this is where it led to it.
01:09:03
Speaker
Because even in DS9, they still had to learn, but they probably had to go off of what Beverly had done in the first place. Yeah. And yeah, Dr. Bashir is definitely drafting off of what Dr. Crusher had. Exactly.
01:09:13
Speaker
I think they might teach those some of the conflict of Pellier-Zell in like an intergalactic diplomacy curriculum. Yeah. um You could very easily imagine how the magical technology in Star Trek creates all sorts of crises across. Yeah.
01:09:28
Speaker
The galaxy that, you know, ah like the for those who are just listening to us and didn't watch the episode, Alpha Moon is able to tap into the ah the magnetic field of the planet. It's orbiting to basically get infinite energy.
01:09:43
Speaker
It's like that's just science fiction, science magic, you know, so it's just like all those types of things. What do you do on worlds that do have replicators versus those that don't? We've certainly seen diplomacy about regarding dilithium crystals. So there's like all, it's all kind of like resource driven stuff.
01:09:58
Speaker
Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better? Oh man. And here's the thing. I don't know. feel like it had just right and enough of horniness, but it was so weird to see Riker Beverly Kissing.
01:10:14
Speaker
It was so weird. was like, I get it. but They don't hit the brother thing too hard. They don't hit that weirdness too hard. um But I agree. I think it's so horny in the opening with their actual Odon.
01:10:28
Speaker
And I think it's kind of horny at the end when when the woman Odon kisses her on the wrist. Then I think that's enough. I think that... it but leave wouldn't made it any
Imagining Alternative Scenarios
01:10:40
Speaker
better.
01:10:40
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think you came up with the way it would have been better. And that is if it had been Picard. um Anyway, so Trek, marry or kill the host.
01:10:52
Speaker
Back and forth a little bit, but I have to go with Trek. Have to go with Trek. I think this really just screams Trek through and through due to the fact that it's it's showing, you know, like I said, a diplomacy issue and a new species.
01:11:08
Speaker
And a whole crisis happens and how to figure it out. This is just straight on track through and through. i think this is just embodies everything that the franchise really tries to push out.
01:11:21
Speaker
What were you debating? What was the other option? Marry or kill? hill and Why would you have killed it? and the reason be again is not a favorite of mine and it's not one that i'll be like i'm going to go watch the host um but i i thought that they did hit other points like as much as this is a beverly episode they did hit points about riker and troy and Picard and all that stuff that it showcased more than just the Beverly stuff. It was just like I said, the Odon just felt pushy in a way, especially when he was in Riker's body that I just was like, eh, you know, and that's where it's not a favorite of mine, but it's not bad enough to be a kill. Like if it's on, I'm going watch it.
01:12:07
Speaker
You know, it's not like any of the really worse episodes out there. So it's definitely a track, but it's not a favorite. So can't be a Mary. Yeah, I don't think I like to save Mary's for like, is this an amazing episode of television as well as great Star Trek?
01:12:23
Speaker
And I think this is a story that only Star Trek could do. Really? yeah can't think of many. Very true. But so in that sense, I'm like, all right, there's that. And I think for especially of its time, it's very well written.
01:12:37
Speaker
But yeah, there is. There is just more of it's a Trek. It has like a lot of great tropes that you see throughout the series. um I think it's, there's ah an element of fun in it, which I, it's weird that that's a word that keeps coming to mind. It is kind of fun. and The ending, i totally, for people who are like, it I don't like it because of the ending. I think that actually holds true. I think anyone that's bothered or offended by this episode, I think that puts it more into a, it's challenging.
01:13:05
Speaker
Yeah. Sphere than like Spock's brain where it's like, it's fun, but it's really misogynistic. You know what I mean? Like it's really nasty to women. And I don't yeah think that this ah episode is being nasty towards.
01:13:18
Speaker
non-heteronormative people. I really don't think that's the idea. And if you come away from it thinking less of Dr. k Crusher, I think the episode doesn't invite that, but it's like, okay, but that's, this is a dilemma.
01:13:31
Speaker
Like someone came on board and she thought she might leave Starfleet. So how did this conflict resolve itself? She was so straight. She's like, I'd rather stay in Starfleet. Like that was what, that's that's the solution it came to. i agree. It's a trek.
01:13:44
Speaker
um I'm kind of in the sometimes I say strong weak. It's a track. I don't have any other stronger feelings than that. Right. Right. I really liked the the conflict, though. It's like one of the better negotiated.
01:13:56
Speaker
All right. So it really is. Yeah, no, you're right. And again, just to point out that they don't know anything about diplomacy. We don't even see how he resolves the conflict. They just got away from that. They're like, he's been in there for six hours. And also, I love that it's like years of buildup and it's resolved in like six hours. That's kind of funny.
01:14:15
Speaker
Well, I think too, and Odon's offense, you know, cause he had been doing it apparently this entire time. they could He's been that he's been, but then that's also like, man, these, these, these two species really get at it because he's been literally negotiating their piece for how many centuries. And it's like, and again, here we go. He's like, man, I gotta now be the Karel Odon to go that's right negotiate the next one.
01:14:41
Speaker
I really want to know what the solve was, though, because it's like the unlimited energy will give everyone on beta moon like cancer.
Crusher Convo Podcast and Star Trek Reviews
01:14:48
Speaker
And and so it's like, how do you resolve that? All right. Anyway. It's mention of disbelief.
01:14:55
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Jesse, it's been great having you on. ah Listeners, you can find her at Crusher Conversation. Tell us more about it. Yeah, so Crusher Convo is in its third season. I've had amazing guests and I've even done some interviews. um I talked to John Billingsley because they had done truck talks in April. And then I also had like Brian Volkweiss from Nacelle Company.
01:15:19
Speaker
um And yeah, we're just hitting different episodes from Voyager and TNG and g and DS9, I did a Jackie Robinson tribute back in April because I love baseball and I had to do ah Take Me Out to the Hollow Suite. But yeah, I'm just having fun this season and hitting some cons and just talking about Beverly Crusher and how you know she represents Trek in the best way.
01:15:43
Speaker
That's great. I encourage everyone to go listen. It's a lot of fun. And again, I like when starch we are the negative and the positive. And I like when there are just other positive Star Trek. We have a little negative.
01:15:55
Speaker
There's a little negative that sneaks in. We have kill in the title of ours.
01:16:02
Speaker
But how many kills have you done? I mean, you know, if you average it out. We get marries and kills in equal measure, and then treks are ahead, which is what the in the 70s and 80s Star Trek fans kind of built this formula when it was mainly the original series of like 30% are amazing, 30% stink, but we'll watch anyway. And then 40% are like, you know, pretty good.
01:16:24
Speaker
And we're kind of proving that. it's more like 50% are treks and then 25-25. Nice. and then twenty five twenty five but nice It's been fun to go through it all. We're Trek, Mary, K-Pod.
01:16:34
Speaker
Oh, sorry. ah Next week, we conclude Spring Flings. Captain Picard meets Famke Jansen. No, it's not X-Men. It's the perfect mate from the next generation.
01:16:45
Speaker
If you're enjoying Trek, Mary, Kill, consider rating and reviewing us wherever you listen. We'd appreciate your five stars. We're Trek, Mary, K-Pod on social media and trekmarrykillpod.com on the web. We can see all of our standings for Trek, Mary, and Kills.
01:16:57
Speaker
So until next week, TMK out. Bye.