Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
LD: "A Mathematically Perfect Redemption" & "Crisis Point 2: Paradoxus" (s3e7-8) with Katie Hampton
25 Plays31 minutes ago
NARCISSISTS AND CATHARSIS. Bryan and Katie Hampton from Geekscape's Napping Through Happy Hour Podcast shine a spotlight on a pair of sequel episodes. Do the hosts overcome their disdain towards the character of Peanut Hamper? Does another adventure in Boimler's holodeck movie universe generate the same surprise and excitement as the last time out? You'll just have to listen!
The grades begin at (21:09). Jump to "Crisis Point 2: Paradoxus" at (52:35).
Here's the supercut of The Most Famous Prop in Science Fiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPp5oYnps0
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast's Purpose
00:00:00
Speaker
This month on Trek, Marry, Kill, Redemption, Birds, Sulu, Energize.
00:00:09
Speaker
Trek, Marry, Kill. Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Katie. Welcome to Trek, Marry, Kill, a Star Trek podcast that has always wanted to be captain but has never said it out loud before.
00:00:25
Speaker
ah I want to be captain of Star Trek, Katie. I want this podcast to be the captain of opinions. No, I'm kidding. Listen, Brian, I feel like you find you finally brought me to some episodes.
Katie Hampton's Return and Role
00:00:38
Speaker
of Yes, that is the voice of the wonderful Katie Hampton, who's returning this month for our animated spotlight. You can listen to her ah every week on Geekscape's Napping Through Happy Hour podcast. Katie, welcome back.
00:00:51
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me back. So the two episodes we're going to deal with this month, ah this feels like we were, you know I'm with you. I'm not a peanut hamper fan. so I saw that note and I was just like, as soon as I turned on the episode, I was like, oh no, it's this one.
00:01:11
Speaker
Yeah, peanut hamper, not my favorite.
Discussion on 'A Mathematically Perfect Redemption'
00:01:14
Speaker
A mathematically perfect redemption is the seventh episode of Star Trek Lower Decks third season. It premiered on Paramount Plus October 6th, 2022, written by Ann Kim, directed by Jason Zurich.
00:01:24
Speaker
Memory Alpha describes it, a wayward Starfleet ensign struggles the fight to find a path to redemption. Oh my, Memory Alpha. That's one most madman-ass descriptions they've written. That's, you know, remember those?
00:01:37
Speaker
Yep. Yep. Yep. Peggy has a big decision to make. And then we'll see what happens. Spoilers. It doesn't happen. dead Like none of that happens. It's a nice little tag. And you want to, you want to keep watching because you think, Oh, maybe this is it.
00:01:53
Speaker
Nope. Yeah. So the wayward Starfleet officer is peanut hamper. Our favorite Katie's favorite. Yeah. I hate I hate her so much.
00:02:06
Speaker
Kristen, our other co-host, she was like, when she started the podcast, she was kind of very adamant about a few episodes. She's like, these are immediate kills. These are non-negotiable. And I feel like with you, it took you a minute to like kind of indicate your preferences.
00:02:23
Speaker
But once Peanut Hamper was a in your orbit, you like... yeah die genocide the exocomps go fuck herself but she can no i know i like i i love this i love all of the cast in this show and it's like it's very hard for me to kill an episode But then peanut hamper comes along and it's so easy.
00:02:49
Speaker
As soon as my husband saw me watching the episode again yesterday, he was like, oh, you're probably going to kill that. Yeah. Why are you doing this one? and then he's like, you're probably going to kill this one, aren't you? I was like, yes, I am. Spoilers. Sorry. So she gets picked up by some Drukmani scavengers who are scouring the debris field from the Cerritos battle with the Paklet in the season one finale.
00:03:12
Speaker
And she winds up escaping to the bird world of Areolus and quickly becomes a godlike figure to them. This basically a massive off concept, off format episode of the show.
00:03:24
Speaker
What happened to Peanut Hamper? Well, she she fucked off to some alien backwater planet and became their god and then tried to formulate her own redemption arc so that she could rejoin Starfleet and basically leave behind these primitives.
00:03:40
Speaker
um But we we know how you feel about Peanut Hamper, Katie, and I'm with i'm with you. But what are your feelings on redemption? Is everyone capable of it?
Redemption and Narcissism in Star Trek
00:03:49
Speaker
I think everyone is unless they're a narcissist. And narcissists don't tend to try and change. There are a few, I will say, there are a few that try their best to be better at just acknowledging other human beings or, i don't know, tech.
00:04:09
Speaker
i So I think we are kind of more in the minority on feelings about peanut hamper. Because I think people really love Peanut Hamper. I mean, they did a whole episode about bringing her back.
00:04:22
Speaker
I know. And it it was one of those that when it first came out, I was like, okay, I will give this a shot, especially with the description about potential redemption, which is a cool thing. And like, if you're going to take me away from the main cast, go ahead and do it and make it my worth my while.
00:04:38
Speaker
However, i i feel like you could redeem Peanut and Hamper, but i i the way they wrote this episode, I was like, well, then no, she can't ever be redeemed.
00:04:50
Speaker
So I have complicated feelings about this because you mentioned narcissists and that is exactly what she is. Catherine Donahue, the voice actor. That's what she's very well. She's very good at doing it. Yeah. We both live in Hollywood. This is, we must have admit we must be narcissists on some level to flock to this place.
00:05:12
Speaker
And i think that, that there's some exaltation of this personality type because it's we kind of go into it knowing it's wrong to be so selfish, but isn't it kind of fun to be that way? That's the Hollywood way of dealing with it.
00:05:30
Speaker
It can i be entertaining. Sure. Yes. And I think why there are Star Trek fans who like it, and this is going to sound super mean, but I think this is how narcissists get by because it seems like we should be snuffing them out. And yet there's more of them than ever.
00:05:44
Speaker
So I think this is like a Chris Rock thing. And I know Chris Rock is problematic, but it still holds true. He's like, take a class. Remember your school days? was like 10%. ten percent are like terrible students, 10% are the best students, and everyone else is in the middle.
00:06:01
Speaker
And I think narcissism plays on the C studentness, the averageness of most everybody else. And I think because Star Trek is usually about exceptional people. The reason why people love Lower Decks.
00:06:16
Speaker
It's their favorite Star Trek show, even if they've been longtime Star Trek fans. Like it's too hard to be a Captain Picard or the next generation crew. But if you were fuck ups and C students like the Lower Deckers,
00:06:27
Speaker
then that's aspirated. That's why people love it so much. Like I see, I I'll never be good great. So good enough is good enough. And I think it all kind of
Narcissistic Characters in Media and Their Appeal
00:06:36
Speaker
ties together in this way. That's like, fuck all these people. that It's just awful.
00:06:40
Speaker
Okay. Why are we exalting peanut hamper? where We shouldn't be, but like how interesting that a, the Star Trek fandom also likes peanut hamper, which I didn't realize. I was like, why we don't need another episode for a peanut peanut hamper.
00:06:54
Speaker
um But I, i I feel like that's kind of like the thing that narcissists do is they get a big majority to really love the entertainment factor of what horrible things they do and become leader slash godlike-esque, which I feel like hits a little too close to home to the fact that like, all right, I'm a B average person and in all things, I would say in school and in success.
00:07:21
Speaker
And, um, I cannot stand narcissists because you can see the great divide between what is right and what is terrible.
00:07:32
Speaker
But C's get degrees, Katie. I know. That's why they. What do you call a doctor? There's more of them. Then that's what happens. And that's why i agree. I think what we're seeing today in terms of leadership yeah is exactly the extension of that. That is the logical conclusion of all that. And is peanut hamper a symptom of that? Absolutely. That's what we're saying.
00:07:56
Speaker
Yeah, 1,000%. That lower deck sort of proud stupidity of like, nah, who cares? the shortcuts the show takes, you know, like all the the concepts. The whole show is about what if fuck-ups were trying their best is is this whole idea.
00:08:12
Speaker
You know, like the people that vote for t Trump, they're like, I just want one thing. I can't be worried about all stuff. My intentions were simply, I want lower taxes and cheaper eggs. Like all the other stuff that's happening, I'm not i'm not thinking about any of that. I can't think about those things.
00:08:27
Speaker
There's just too many factors. Yeah, understandably. But that is the way narcissists they do prey on you. They're very they're charismatic. the The psychology behind it, how do I know all this?
00:08:38
Speaker
Well, I have some family members who that they really proliferate when um communities are, when you're your basic needs are met.
00:08:49
Speaker
But some people some people are better at having their basic needs solved than others, right? Right. So then there are those people who can't solve their basic needs for whatever reason, they fall through the cracks. Then there are ones that don't fall through the cracks, but aren't good at taking care of their needs. Those are narcissists.
00:09:03
Speaker
Those are the ones that are able to abuse people into getting or manipulate people is actually the more correct word into having their needs met through the labor of others.
00:09:14
Speaker
And that's all we're seeing here. And what is peanut hamper? But like constantly, she's got a couple of gizmos, but she really is relying on the kindness of everyone else to get by.
00:09:25
Speaker
Yeah. And the I mean, she is. But at the same time, she's like, I think she's stranded, which don't know. mean, she needs all of them until she no longer needs needs them. Yeah. So that she can get off planet.
Peanut Hamper's Manipulations and Character Arc
00:09:38
Speaker
But ah the fact that she basically turns the prince to be like her lover. did ah have Like, I think I have such a problem because I've met so many. I mean, yeah, we're in Hollywood.
00:09:51
Speaker
There are a ton of narcissists out here. I will say in my own defense, I was like, When you said that, like, we have a little bit of narcissism for being out here. Like, okay, sure. But I also am way more of a fan of collaboration with, like, an end goal of fun like, good products happening as opposed to just being like, well, if I get this person to do this for me, then I'll go further in my career and I can leave them behind.
00:10:17
Speaker
Well, what I'm saying is because you definitely are a good person, that's definitely a voice you had to shout down in your head. I'm willing to bet that that's something you had to practice a little bit of.
00:10:30
Speaker
and And other people don't do that. they are They don't. and That's mainly because they've always been that way for every facet of their life. Or they have been afforded the opportunity to keep doing that behavior yes and not be humbled on a near constant basis. But I will say in my experience that there is no such thing as you cannot humble them.
00:10:52
Speaker
It's a binary. They're either flowing as raging narcissists or they're deeply embarrassed, which momentarily turns off the spigot. But there is no changing them, evolving them.
00:11:04
Speaker
You have to do what the episode does and fucking lock them up. You have to lock them up with and all the other narcissists. Oh, ah AI narcissism is very terrifying as a thought. Just putting that out there.
00:11:18
Speaker
So I mentioned Catherine Donahue, the voice of Peanut Hamper, probably best known as the character of Lindsay from the fs FX series You're the Worst, which I loved. I enjoyed that show very much. great one. It's very much a you have to live in L.A. to really under appreciate all of it. But it's still pretty funny on its own in some ways. But More so if you live in LA.
00:11:39
Speaker
She's also in Pitch Perfect. Fair enough. Not for me. Don't watch it. Although the baseball writers like to joke that it's a baseball movie. That's right. Yes. I heard about that. Yeah. ah She was interviewed for StarTrek.com after this episode premiered to the point of is Peanut Hamper a popular character?
00:11:58
Speaker
She's getting ah a glow up, ah a full article with a video tribute interviewed by all the cast members on StarTrek.com. ah So she said, i you want me to try to do her voice?
00:12:12
Speaker
let's Do it. Go ahead. I would love to hear your impersonation of Peanut Hamper. I love Peanut Hamper because she has twists and turns, even in the matter of one line. At the beginning of the line, she could start off sarcastic and sardonic.
00:12:26
Speaker
And by the end of the line, she could be enthusiastic and horny. She surprised me as I was recording her. That's my favorite part of any character, but particularly her. let's see I didn't hear that horny part in there. So I'm just going to put that out there. yeah But well done on that. It did make me cringe.
00:12:45
Speaker
but She's kind of a floating contradiction. This is her still speaking, but now my regular voice. Yeah. which is also why I love her. And I even shared with Mike one um one day, this is just my interpretation, but I feel like peanut hamper actually does have a good heart deep down inside somewhere.
00:13:00
Speaker
She's just really traumatized by her father because she had a monologue in her first episode where she talks about how she was always trying impress her dad. She puts up a front and plays a cold like she doesn't care, but I think she really does. She's just insecure.
00:13:13
Speaker
That's my theory. That's my theory. good There it is. And then she that later on in the interview goes, I'm going I'm just going to choose to believe she's not a sociopath.
00:13:24
Speaker
I believe in a redemptive arc for peanut hamper. I really do. I do too. However, that was not written. And i love the fact that like her playing the character, she has the belief she's not a sociopath because that it is a hundred percent what a narcissist would do. the I'm not a sociopath. This is just how it happens.
00:13:47
Speaker
ah So I do find that a ah cool acting choice for this character. That is a sociopathic character to make somebody fall in love with you pretend like you're basically a god, and like dole Oh, interesting. So you think that was a manipulation from the start?
00:14:05
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
Speculation on Peanut Hamper's Redemption
00:14:06
Speaker
I don't. I actually, on the fourth rewatched character. Oh my god, you watched it four times? that to i To give them all fair shake, Katie, I have to give them. It's not reasonable for me to watch some more than others.
00:14:19
Speaker
So... the The tone of the episode is ah fantasy. And that they're trying very hard to capture you in the different format.
00:14:31
Speaker
And I think you have to go along with all these cliches of he's skeptical of the sky creature and she's just trying to find her footing. As a narcissist would, she finds a status that she can ascend to and then is taken care of. Her needs are met.
00:14:45
Speaker
yeah But I don't think... that she's manipulating him into a relationship. It is an actual attraction. It's the moment they find that he reveals the ships to her, that it be, then it, that's how she can get That's that's her twist. That's the twist. thought That's what I'm saying from the beginning. Let me ask this though. What, what was his twist then? Like what, what made him fall in love with her after he had been so annoyed with her? Well, I mean, she saved his father.
00:15:14
Speaker
He like brought, brought all those, helped bring all those eggs. Yeah. to hatch. They didn't lose any. So what made him turn was simply like he saw on her, um it broke down his barriers about what these, this technology is that it wasn't a threat. It was trying to help his people to make our, so our flock stronger.
00:15:35
Speaker
However, you you asked me that question. And I'm thinking like, well, one of those things I do when my spidey senses tingle, like I'm in the presence of a narcissist is there is, you just have to wait.
00:15:48
Speaker
for them to do their thing. They will always implode. And if you're right, you have to then choose. Is that the acceptable loss or is there in what they, what they're going to take?
00:16:02
Speaker
Is that going to hurt you or help you? Or can you live with it? Whatever. So in one sense, you are right. She's always looking for her opportunity to exploit the situation to her advantage. That's true.
00:16:13
Speaker
But the tone of it is not that this is some Machiavellian plot from the moment she crash lands. That's all I was saying. Like, I think the affection or the attraction, I should say, is genuine.
00:16:26
Speaker
don't. Okay, that's fair. I feel like it's ah it's just like another plan. It's another plot to get him on her side so that she can be higher up in their hierarchy. It's way too much thought process. That's what but a narcissist, when you get away from them, because unless you do something that's against the law, you can't really do anything other than get ah ah away from them. yeah Sometimes you can sue them and do silence, but that doesn't always shut them up.
00:16:52
Speaker
And they're, they're the ones more likely to throw frivolous lawsuits at you. But yeah the point is, is that, ah um, You're right, Katie. We we know we we've had some direct personal experiences. You're you're right. yeah I guess i was the I was letting the story do its thing and just taking it very much on the surface because... As you should.
00:17:12
Speaker
For a cartoon, as you should. Also, it's more fun to think about it, is big especially if they're committed to... Now, is the show committed to Catherine Donahue's assessment is an interesting question.
00:17:24
Speaker
You know, I would think normally, yes, absolutely. I feel like, especially if the show had been continuing on, and I i honestly can't remember if we do see Peanut and Hamper again after all this. I'm pretty sure we do at some point, but I don't remember what happens. um But, like, i I feel like Mike McMahon, of all people, would give that arc to that character.
00:17:50
Speaker
But I just don't... I mean, that's what this was. And and they didn't do that. So I kind of think that they they think this is a sociopathic, na like it is effectively agamous. It is like all the other AI tech that they have that eventually becomes godlike and an asshole.
00:18:08
Speaker
Yeah. So, yeah. All right, some production perspective before we get into the grades. That was fun and also harrowing. Yes, it was. Awaken some traumas. i Tamp town. Oh, no, I'm so sorry. When the Druk-Mani attempt to track her up, peanut hamper, another piece of debris briefly lights up.
00:18:26
Speaker
It's later revealed in the post-credits scene for the Stars at Night. This was Rutherford's original implant featuring Badgie. ah Peanut Hamper describes the Erior as the poor man's Aurelians, referring to another avian race first introduced in the animated series episode yesteryear.
Filler Episodes in Star Trek
00:18:42
Speaker
So that actually, I forgot to mention that. These are these are bird people. Another kind of like Rick and Morty reference with Bird Person, which was one of the best side characters that they then blew up, which was a lot of fun.
00:18:57
Speaker
So Yesteryear is what what introduces to the Aurelians in the animated series. They're also then seen in the season two episode of Lower Decks and Embarrassment of Duplers. But Peanut Hamper's reference to Aurelians was the first canon use of their name in the franchise history 49 years after their first appearance. Crazy.
00:19:14
Speaker
Cool. And this episode is an off format special episode. Like I mentioned, a detour back in 2022, Darren Mooney for theescapist.com highlighted many examples from Star Trek because this is not unique to Star Trek or Lower Decks.
00:19:27
Speaker
um It's not new, I should say. And it's not unique. Plenty of other shows do it too. But they mentioned for Lower Decks, Crisis Point, Weijjj. ah They also mentioned Voyager's Distant Origin and Living Witnesses.
00:19:40
Speaker
It makes the point that these off format episodes, are actually what a lot of people toss into the filler category. Remember, we had that big discussion last year when Alex Kurtzman said, we made a billion dollars of Star Trek, no filler. Even though every time you get into the executive producers talking about the season arcs, they're always we actually only had enough story for like 85% of the season. So, you know, but...
00:20:10
Speaker
This is ah what is ah filler episode. It doesn't, it's not even about our main characters. So how could it be anything other than? so i don't know. I mean, I think the idea that things are filler episodes is a silly thing.
00:20:22
Speaker
And it's like, what is this animated too? Cause it's like, well, how that work. What is this McKinsey need to make everything efficient? Like everything has to be. You know, it's art and entertainment. It's supposed to be fun.
00:20:36
Speaker
Is it fun and diverting for the time that you're watching it is the most important thing. So we're going to find that out in the grades. I feel like we already know. But yeah, listen, I'm okay with a filler.
00:20:48
Speaker
Oh my God. ah I knew it. I knew it. Brian. Okay. I will say though, if if it's a filler episode, at least like give me something that I can hang on to. That's like, oh, but wasn't it fun when that happened?
00:21:01
Speaker
Yeah. um Let's get into the grades. but ah Great moments.
00:21:12
Speaker
um When the Cerritos showed up is what I have. When the format returned. Yeah, the format returned. That's the only one I have for that.
00:21:25
Speaker
So i I liked the castaway montage after the flashback. So after it sets up the events of how she got where she is. I liked the animation of how she's scavenging and putting everything together, using her little mini tractor beam to scratch how many days she's been there.
00:21:40
Speaker
She has her own Wilson. She builds her own little warp drive. She also throws it and sacrifice. It's not even an animate object. yeahs She's like, well, fuck that. Yep.
00:21:52
Speaker
ah So I like that. i put, and And including her escape on the nest and cell, I thought that was all a nice, great moment just to set up like this episodes about peanut hamper. And so there, Katie, there have been things that we've done. we did Star Trek Picard and there was a scene in there that broke my heart.
00:22:11
Speaker
And like, oh, they killed Star Trek in this moment. But I still put it a great moment because I'm like, okay, I have to accept that my heart is broken, but there are a lot of people who are like sexually aroused by the idea of deconstructing Star Trek.
00:22:22
Speaker
So for them, this is a very big day for them. It is a well done moment and it sets up the point of the show that they're trying to do. It was the scene where, um... Picard goes and asks for a ship and the Admiral tells him to fuck off and we to decide who lives and who dies.
00:22:36
Speaker
And I'm like, oh, well that, but okay, well you guys hate Star Trek. Yeah. But I still picked it as a great moment. I'm like, because of the episode. So this episode is about peanut hamper in an off format adventure. Did they do set that up? Well, I think they did. They set it up pretty well.
00:22:50
Speaker
Yeah. My next great moment. Peanut Hamper and Rauda milking the flying livestock. Oh my gosh. Because we're on a bird planet, so everything has wings and everything. And she already, she questions that in the scene before.
00:23:06
Speaker
And then we get that payoff where they're literally, they're milking livestock that have wings that are floating. and I thought that was... I'm not gonna lie. I also have been like watching way too much severance and doing so many dip dyes into severance that when the goats came up with wings, I was like, Oh, wait. And then I was like, no, that's not the same thing. Goats, Katie. yos There's no Gwendolyn Christie here. Dang it. ah Which could have helped.
00:23:32
Speaker
But Rauda flies Peanut Hamper above the trees and then sings for her. oh that that she tells him to stop singing. I'm going to bring that up later. that is I did laugh at that moment. That was a funny moment. And then Rauda and Peanut Hamper fuck by the waterfall.
00:23:48
Speaker
Yep, they do. They sure do. Like, Peanut Hammer looking at his genitals and just being like, it's so complicated. I'm like, what is down there? Remember we said a lot of some of the other episodes might have been in ah impacted by everyone being on lockdown and all that stuff. I think that hurt the animation in a lot of ways.
Technobabble and Storytelling Balance
00:24:07
Speaker
This is like everyone coming out of it because this might have been written in 2021, but maybe late 2020. Sure. So this is everyone still in a fog and it's like excruciatingly detailed, this cliched set up into getting them into having sex. And I'm like, yeah you know what, Star Trek writers, I don't know what's going on with y'all, but you you really are committed to this and I'm enjoying it. So I'm enjoying their commitment. And so i appreciate as a great moment of like.
00:24:32
Speaker
That's Brian. Well, do that all the time. If I understand where they're, if I can put myself in their head space to understand where they're coming from, whether I like it or not, did they pull off what they did?
00:24:43
Speaker
And they really wanted to make a, they were tired of making Cerritos adventures and they'd hit a wall and they're like can we just do something for a minute to get our minds off of that? Which by the way, Alex Kurtzman, that's why you have quote unquote filler episodes.
00:24:57
Speaker
So that you can, it's like an ocean wave. It, it, it crashes on the shore and it recedes, but then it comes back. You can't do a captain Picard episode, every episode. You know what i mean? You can't do a data episode, every episode.
00:25:09
Speaker
Sometimes you need Dr. Crusher hooking up with an alien ghost candle. It's not a ghost, but and it looks like a ghost. Sometimes you need to change it up just to get you back to the to the main thing.
00:25:20
Speaker
Totally. I mean, it is usually when they put in a holodeck episode, but don't worry, we get that next episode. That's right. well again, the twinning is pretty remarkable here. Again? Yeah. those were all my great moments there.
00:25:34
Speaker
Best trick tropes. Okay. ah Just... um i I did like the fact that, like, Pina Hapber was so against Star Trek and star are so Starfleet in general. like saying that. It's like, she was against the premise of the series. I mean... Like, most of the people producing Star Trek today, she was against it. She was against it. She was against all the morality of it. She was against all the beautifulness of it.
00:25:59
Speaker
ah But, yeah, no, she was very against it. And then i thought it was a nice moment... when she was like, oh, start I'm going to contact Starfleet now. like I thought that was a nice, like there was like that tiny bit of redemption, but then it was all just to get her off planet.
00:26:16
Speaker
And that felt very Star Trek where it's like, oh, I realized that I have been an ass this whole time. um i These are the guys that can help me out in a pinch and help out this entire community.
00:26:28
Speaker
But then we reveal that it has nothing to do with any of that. It's just to get her off world. That's right. ah Mine was consistent technobabble. On the first watch, this was in the worst Trek trope because it was like science magic.
00:26:44
Speaker
But guess what? That's why I rewatched them multiple times. Okay. So I was really annoyed at first because I'm like, she's building a warp drive and it's like, where's the, du like like, how is this working? How did she collect the... And it's like, oh no they did. And then rewatching, like they did put a deflector dish in the front. You need a deflector dish.
00:27:03
Speaker
She didn't build like a housing where like warp plasma could be stored. It is a little contraption because you need the deflector dish. Otherwise this piece of dust is just going to go right through her and and destroy her.
00:27:14
Speaker
So it's like they created, ah they animated enough to be like, okay, you could theoretically create a warp bubble. She doesn't need to warp for that long. She gets just a little bit of dilithium crystal. That's fine. That was in peak performance. They were like, just even a little bit of dilithium, you can get warp speed on the starship. So that all worked. And I, at first, again, because I only, and the first time I was like, this is so annoying. This is just, we want to do this. So we're going to just shortcut everything. And I'm like, no, wait, they did it.
00:27:40
Speaker
they remembered the fake science so it was like upholding star trek technobabble is the best trek trek i feel like we're like we're ships in the night of because i was like oh really you got a little bit of dilithium out there yeah sure after all of that destruction and everything okay what did you do to where did you get that vial like it's i mean it was floating around in the in the particular after the ship exploded the debris she just got a little bit that's all you need is a little bit Sure, that's fine.
00:28:06
Speaker
and But it's so funny because i feel I'm like, oh, I'm totally turning into you right now where I'm like, I mean, really?
The Prime Directive and Moral Implications
00:28:13
Speaker
Okay, fine. But then we have the entire episode to like have so many more questions. Well, because when I first watched it, I didn't notice the deflector dish, which is very important. I just thought she was sitting in like a little seat and had a rocket strapped to her the nacelle strapped to her. Yeah. And like, you need so much more to create a warp drive. And then you go back and you pause it and you look like, oh, that's where the injector might go.
00:28:34
Speaker
But even still, she flies off of that. Well, I have it a worse stretch. That sequence is not over yet, Katie, for my notes. Copy that. Copy that.
00:28:45
Speaker
I will wait. just appreciated that even in this moment, they were like, you know, for a show that that traces sequences and makes all these references. I'm like, you can crack open an encyclopedia to get these deep cuts, but you can't bother to read how a warp drive is supposed to look.
00:29:00
Speaker
look And they did. So I was fine with it. Great. Best track joke. Good job, everybody. ah The other two were ah computer being considered a God to a primitive culture. And on yeah top of that, a Starfleet officer surviving in a primitive culture by using their science knowledge and all that stuff. Of course, we find out they're not a primitive culture. They were a technologically advanced species that some sort of collapse or a cultural revolution where they turn their backs on technology. But still, the point remains.
00:29:27
Speaker
ah that By the way, that tied into my cop-out, my narcissist being propped up by entertainment. I think it's actually kind of a fucking cop-out that they made this, that that she wasn't breaking the prime directive.
00:29:39
Speaker
This is like, like, I'm like, oh yeah, narcissists aren't such bad people. They may, you may not like how they are. They might think they're shitty people. get But guess what? Everybody's shitty. Like that's the the goal of every story about a narcissist is that everybody sucks.
00:29:54
Speaker
So it's okay if this person sucks. And it's like, no I don't like the cop out. such a cop out. It is a cop out. It is a cop out. And I'm like, writers, you weren't like this before. What happened? Yeah. And at lockdown.
00:30:06
Speaker
I think was COVID. Yeah. No, that makes sense. There it is. Worst track tropes. Okay, well, now I'm going to reverse this and just say the the technology becoming basically a god because they have more knowledge than people.
00:30:22
Speaker
i it It drives me insane that like we have so many of these planets being ruled by these narcissistic computers that are just like so easily fooled and it makes it even more annoying that they were not a primitive culture they weren't actually like yes i understand uh how great the sort of writing of not actually destroying the prime directive whilst but like that's just another win for peanut hamper. And that's just, that's what
Depictions of Narcissism in Sci-Fi
00:30:55
Speaker
I'm saying. Why are we giving these assholes wins? Yeah, no, I don't, I don't like that. You sound like right now, Katie, I'm going to pay you a great compliment. You kind of sound like DC Fontana.
00:31:05
Speaker
because Thank you. Even in the original series, she started writing memos being like, why is Kirk talking a computer to death in every episode? Certainly. this is These are the voice I really appreciate that. That like really warms my heart in all the cockles that have been devoid of such joy.
00:31:22
Speaker
um i i also I'm just like I'm not on board with. It feels almost like if Q went down to a primitive planet like this. and started pulling all the shenanigans only to not learn anything in the end. And that which when he does, when that does happen to him, he does learn a lesson.
00:31:44
Speaker
He does learn a lesson. And like, I feel like that's not even a Trek trope. but like That's something that's very modern 2020. No lessons learned. No lessons learned. it doesn't matter. This is such a wash.
00:32:02
Speaker
nothing nothing is furthered either in the plot of lower decks in general um in the character that the episode is focusing on so sorry i'm just going off on a rant now i'm not even in the worst track tropes but um oh okay you know what the worst track trope is nihilism i can't stand it no or like okay how about peanut hamper just putting a flamethrower to the eggs and then it just it hatches all of them like oh a one a one quick fix will just solve all of their problems kitty this is now we are we have switched places I know. I know. This is what I find so wild about this. Well, what's funny is you're we're talking about, that's a thing that I will bring up so often. i'm like, it's a cartoon. So, right. They're just doing it for a cartoon version.
00:32:49
Speaker
If this was the hour long version, it's like the exocomp has created a heating pad, right? Like they would bother to go through the the steps of it, but here it's a cartoon. They don't, you know, it's so funny. And I'm going I'm just going put this out there.
00:33:02
Speaker
with one of the things with animation and one of the things I'll get to later is like animation does allow you to do things you couldn't necessarily do in live action. You could not realize this episode on a TV budget in live action.
00:33:14
Speaker
It's impossible, but an animation you do it. It works well. At the same time, animation does have limitations too and budgets. And sometimes like what's funny is animators will be like, we can do, we can do so much. We can make that look amazing. And then it's like the script calls for the sky and it's like, we can't do that. Sometimes you will just run into that and it's like, well, is animation amazing or is it not? It's like, we don't the budget for two tires on this car.
00:33:43
Speaker
We can only see one moving tire. ah And so it's just funny to me where the shortcuts happen, what get written, what get animated. and think it's funny.
Animation vs. Live-Action in Sci-Fi Narratives
00:33:54
Speaker
Well, and i agreed. And I also feel like the romancing it is one of those things that also got shortcutted too, where it's just like, oh, these two characters hate each other.
00:34:04
Speaker
and then this also feels a bit like a Trek trope, like a worst Trek trope, where like these two characters hate each other, but really they love each other. Well, that's just a drama thing. Yeah. Yeah. But also let me add you to the science thing that you were mentioning. Okay.
00:34:18
Speaker
So I don't think peanut hamper survives entering the atmosphere at that velocity. Yeah. When she gets blown out of like drops out of warp basically violently, yeah she's spiraling towards the planet. So she's clearly caught in its gravity. Well, she's not making, it she's burning up in the atmosphere. She's dead.
00:34:34
Speaker
Absolutely. um The other part is sound in space. So in order to give us the flashback, we can hear Shax shouting at Rutherford as he shoves the shuttle out. Hang in there, little bear. And it's, you know, sound in space is a Star Trek thing that we go with all the time.
00:34:52
Speaker
But we've never heard it somewhat a person shouting so in the vacuum of space. It's an exocomp, so it's not really a person. So maybe that's why. I know. I know. that and That among... There's so many. There's so many things. i have two more.
00:35:08
Speaker
You have many more? I feel like I do, but like, go ahead. Calling out shield percentages. So Cerritos is under attack from the bird people's ancient technology, which works perfectly.
00:35:19
Speaker
And the Drukmani figure out how to use it immediately. Whatever. Again, cartoon, go with it. Right. right This is awesome. But Billups says shields are at 16% and falling. um ah Bro, 16% is bad. whoa like You should have said like 60% and falling. That would have made a little more sense. But like when it's at 16%, they've and effectively fallen. Also, what does 16% mean? 16% covered.
00:35:42
Speaker
sixteen percent of the shield ah the ship is covered The entire ship is covered, but the shield energy is only at 16% of its maximum capacity. Does that make sense? the shield power would be evenly. That's why I'm like, I don't know what shield percentages denote.
00:35:57
Speaker
It sounds it's a big number going down. And that's the only reason it's a shortcut to drama. And as a kid, by the way, I used to love shield percentages. But then I realized like that's something that kids love.
00:36:09
Speaker
but But what does it mean? so age just gives you an overwhelming sense of like, oh, impending doom. and Yeah, it's a countdown. Yeah, it's like a it's a mental visual bar, I guess. I don't know.
00:36:21
Speaker
um All the weeds that Lord X gets into, though. Why has no one brought that up? That's actually a really good point. It's a really good point. um Or, okay, here's a Star Trek trope, or worst track trope of this episode.
00:36:37
Speaker
ah hidden, but like, thing or ship or something like that, that just happens to be the answer to be like, oh, this is like way worse than we've
Plot Devices and Character Complexity
00:36:49
Speaker
ever seen it. Or like, this technology is way more advanced and we don't have like, but then somehow they figure a way out.
00:36:56
Speaker
I mean, what you're raising is and the fourth rewatch. I'm like, this act three just falls apart. It really does. And like whatever you your feelings on Peanut Hamper are, what her motivations are, what she's manipulating through the first two acts, it's like, this is pretty solid.
00:37:12
Speaker
Like this is like going and then it it just devolves into nonsense. It devolves into the third act of Star Trek Nemesis, basically. yeah It's not not all that interesting, to be perfectly honest.
00:37:26
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Any other worst trick tropes? I just I. Why did peanut hamper have to get into a ship in order to get up to another ship? Well, the Duke Monty take the shuttle down and then beam up up to leave the shuttle down. I'm like, again, the third act, it's falling apart. It's also a worst trick trope peanut hamper.
00:37:44
Speaker
Yeah. Just put her in there. Yes. Like we do the Parigi sometime. Yeah. She has disgraced the exocomps. Not that Quality of Life was an amazing episode of Star Trek, but, you know, had Data not advocated for them, we wouldn't have Peanut Hamper. And so maybe that was one of Data's few mistakes.
00:38:02
Speaker
True.
00:38:07
Speaker
Most cosplayable character or moment? I mean, I thought the Skysnake was really fun, and I did love the line, why not just call it a snake? I put Rauda.
00:38:19
Speaker
Rauda is great. Yeah. Because you can pop off is ah his little feathers. His ponytail. And you can also, ri yeah. I don't think you do reveal genitals. No, you just genitals you just have underneath it like a big plate that's like um the like blurring effect. Yeah. that they Like it's not anything. It's just like a photo of like the blur effect or like the sensor bar. And if you're Rauda, you can plus it by having peanut hamper, by carrying peanut hamper.
00:38:48
Speaker
I know. And then it's just like it's just like talking the whole time. Yes. Yes. This is so amazing. Someone else is carrying me through this convention floor. Yeah. All right. Great line. or Now it's time for the line. must drawn yeah Great lines. My surprising number of great lines because...
00:39:06
Speaker
and On the third and fourth viewing, I made myself be in a better mood than I was in the first. The first two view the first viewing, Katie, because I did not watch this one when it first premiered. okay I watched and sat stone-faced.
00:39:17
Speaker
And at the end when it was over, I'm like, i don't know what going to say about this. It's not going to get people to unsubscribe. Maybe they already unsubscribe. Maybe the narcissists who are subscribed are like, I never... Good. They wouldn't know they're narcissists. What am I saying? They're like, its he's not talking about me.
00:39:32
Speaker
not talking about me at all. It must some other piece of shit. Yeah. By the way, narcissists don't constantly question whether not they're a narcissist. Just putting that out there. Correct. That is one of the first signs to know you're not a narcissist. Yeah. And trust me, I've questioned many times.
00:39:50
Speaker
All I'm just saying is we have to acknowledge some- Yes, there's elements. Everything's a spectrum, that's right y'all. And so I feel like I'm on a safer side of what that is. And like every now and then I do have my narcissistic moments, but it's not my whole morality scale. That's right.
00:40:08
Speaker
um my great lines do you have any i do i have who's uh my heart feels so full it feels like i could sing and then sing and he just calls she's like you scared the shit out of me it's such an obvious joke but it's still fun yeah
00:40:28
Speaker
They're so uptight about being betrayed. Yeah. Ah, the space box has awoken. oh wow. A dirty stick. That's special. Thanks so much. With a little...
00:40:42
Speaker
with The kid gives her a gift yeah ah Another thing that really drove me crazy, which is like the entire village did not trust her. And it was this like wisdom filled, you know, leader that says, oh, no, like this is great, even though she's a bitch the whole time.
00:41:02
Speaker
anyway um she wouldn't be that way if she wasn't superior yeah
00:41:09
Speaker
it so good rata who is voiced by harry shum from gray's anatomy i'm not gray's anatomy guy but i was like he has a great voice who is this so i had to look it up um he says can a machine ever really be alive father And I just love the melodrama, the soapy introduction when she gets to the village. It's all very cliched, but it's it's fun. I think it's, you know, it's it going with the off format.
00:41:38
Speaker
Like what cliches are they going to bring in here? And I thought they were all voiced well and animated well. Yeah. Ordered well. so Yeah. That's fair and fine. And you know, it was funny because I, i that's what made me forget. i was like, does, is there an actual redemption? That's what kept me watching. Cause I was like, I feel like I know this and I feel like I'm disappointed, but I'll keep watching because I feel like maybe there is something and everything that they set up in the beginning kind of leads you to believe like, oh they're so at odds that they're going to come together as one.
00:42:09
Speaker
Well, they do. And they do. Yeah. You know what, though? This episode is called A Mathematically Perfect Redemption, and I believe... That line! I don't...
00:42:21
Speaker
I think oh the ending, you think that's a great line. No, no, I don't think it's a great line. Cause I'm like, why I don't, ah I literally did research. I was like, okay, how is it a mathematically perfect name?
00:42:31
Speaker
Peanut hamper. And I went and I saw a Reddit post where someone said, all I can figure out is that numerical value of peanut is 77. While hamper is 61.
00:42:43
Speaker
The average of those two sums is 69. And then there's like a stream of comments underneath that just say, nice, nice. yeah And that's the only thing I can find. out I was like, well, how is peanut butter mathematically perfect?
00:42:55
Speaker
Okay, well, that okay, that's fine. But I think STEM people would consider that she did have a mathematically perfect redemption. That it doesn't matter because if you look at the STEM thing, it doesn't matter. The move fast break things model is it doesn't matter how you get to the result.
00:43:12
Speaker
But if you get to the result, then it was a success. So it was mathematically perfect because she was trying to go from point A to point B. And how she got there was irrelevant because it was the most efficient path the way that she got there.
00:43:26
Speaker
So that is... That's the tricky part about this but this whole episode. of Like, well, she got redeemed, didn't she? see She saved these people. It doesn't matter that she put them in jeopardy. she was That gets canceled out by the fact that she was on this planet accidentally.
00:43:41
Speaker
And so while while she was there, she was a net good for them, a net benefit. Yeah.
00:43:48
Speaker
I'm putting myself I'm trying to empathize. No putting myself in the shitheads mind space, ah you know, and you're doing a really good job to the point where I'm like, OK, yeah, I get that. And maybe ah maybe the Aurelians will finally learn that like some people can be trusted and some should not be. That is the lesson. Yes, I have a few great lines. though go far It's called science, which you could have if you didn't put up the if you didn't put up with strong parasite water.
00:44:14
Speaker
see Right, right, right. Peanut Hamper, hey Doyle, did those stomach worms clear out? Doyle, oh yes, my fecal matter is back to being oily and white. And she's like, ew, that's gross. But I still thought it was funny that it's they're all playing it straight. Like, by the way, we are birds.
00:44:28
Speaker
We're just gigantic. Oh, 100%. Yeah. And then he also has like a big like bib that just like has white stains all over the front of it. It's like, well, why, wait why, why? And then of course, but our pieces are so different. right But our pieces are so different.
00:44:45
Speaker
Yours are complicated. We have to put those lines in there. And but it's about after that point of the episode that it all kind of just. It all goes out. Anyway, now it's time for the line must be drawn here.
00:44:59
Speaker
Great art. I did like the under the like the Aurelian world, like that sort of like hidden cave area with all the technology and the ships and stuff. have to be honest. Yeah, I like the above stuff. I kind of think the whole episode is pretty until the Cerritos gets there is is pretty nice. It's beautiful. Look at if you're going to go big, you have to make sure that the visuals sell the whole thing. So I thought that was good.
00:45:24
Speaker
um but that's a great great point so yours below ground mine's above ground yeah yeah i mean it it was it was cool to see like sort of like a like more foresty jungle type yeah absolutely yeah it's what pushes when when they're just putting a episode of star trek in a setting like that you automatically start going well this isn't star trek it starts to feel like star wars or some other fantasy right or lord of the rings because you're not used to seeing star trek you're used to seeing star trek if it's outdoors it's on a studio lot or it's or somewhere within 30 miles of los angeles yeah yeah it's like in
Starfleet Practices and Disliked Characters
00:45:56
Speaker
vegas yeah yeah which is fine and fair and like it did it does kind of like take you out of it for a little bit just being in a forest year i didn't even realize that like that visual cue kind of does scream star wars instead of yeah um but yeah they they spend a lot more time in the woods in star wars in the forests yeah uh would this be a fun hollow novel to play out no
00:46:21
Speaker
Well, okay. If it was you taking the role of peanut hamper and just being able to, i don't know, be in included in a new society, maybe.
00:46:32
Speaker
but i But peanut hamper just ruins it all. but Yeah. Well, what if you want to be Rauta? What if you're like a 24th century fur ah furry and you're just like, going to go for it?
00:46:45
Speaker
um i think I kind of think then it would be fun. I originally put no unless you're a megalomaniac, but i think we just point out to two ends, basically.
00:46:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. What part of this will you teach at Starfleet Academy?
00:47:02
Speaker
um how to scrub for ah where your exocomps go um after all of the ships and everything have blown up and make sure that like you know, exactly where peanut hamper went.
00:47:14
Speaker
Yeah. So that's one of the things about a starship. It's kind of, you hear that criticism of like, you can hold two thoughts at the same time or two ideas. It's like, there's a crisis going on, but you can track things.
00:47:24
Speaker
where your AWOL crew member went that should have been but again as you've pointed out many times I think the point is that the Cerritos crew is not very good so and they're getting better and and it is nice to see Freeman you know take some good strides in this episode at the end so I put all super intelligent computers eventually become mega mega maniacal and should be What am I trying to say?
00:47:53
Speaker
They eventually try to take over the world. Any world. Universe. All super intelligent computers are assholes and are not to be trusted. Yeah. And we need to lock them up. Why don't just put them in some water?
00:48:07
Speaker
Something. Well, she survived in space. I think she'd be Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Destroy them. Yeah. ah So Trek, Marry, or Kill, a Mathematically Perfect Redemption.
00:48:20
Speaker
You know, Ryan, I think you're going to be shocked to hear this is a straight up kill. You're just straight up killing it. Straight up killing it. I'll join you because I, again, kills I've softened on my stance of like shouldn't have been made, but i also more like watch it once. You don't need to watch it again unless you love Peanut Hamper, which if you do, you should wonder. It's a great Peanut Hamper.
00:48:41
Speaker
It's a great Peanut Hamper episode if you love Peanut Hamper. Also, If you love peanut hamper, please at me at Elsassy Pants and tell me why.
00:48:53
Speaker
ah We've had some guests on and there's still some controversy, I guess, of, you know, Section 31, the Star Trek Section 31 movie. was a Trek.
00:49:04
Speaker
the The fans online voted for it. And there's, nice I think there's a lot of people that are simply being contrarians because they're so used to people hating on all the new Star Trek that people, people who think that Star Trek section 31 was a bad movie, which it was, they think those people are just to be lumped in with all of, well, there's women and all that stuff, which, which is tough.
00:49:26
Speaker
I think that's a lack of nuance. Yeah. But also people who are just like, you know, they just, they're in the middle. So they just like it. So I guess what I'm saying is like, we're killing this one, but we've tracked section 31.
00:49:37
Speaker
Do those things line up. Your hatred of peanut hamper is so strong. And I'm with you on that. I know. think the third act of this one is... pretty terrible. also think that this is mostly if you've watched a lot, maybe if you haven't watched a lot of TV in your life or you haven't watched other things that please take cliches and basically mix them all up. This is basically a cliche off. This is not, and it's for fun. Like they're doing it for fun. Like what if we did these kinds of stories, but with Star Trek characters, I get it.
00:50:08
Speaker
But like, there's nothing unique about this episode to be perfectly honest, other than that it features peanut hamper. Right. And that's I think that's the thing that the really gets me at the end of the day.
00:50:20
Speaker
and everyone who's listened to at least two seconds of me talking on this podcast knows that I love Lower Decks. I i try to marry all of Lower Decks. Go over my protestations. Yes. Yeah, and you know what? And you've changed my mind on some things. It's one those things. But at the end of the day, this episode, it didn't advance anything. It didn't advance a character, plot, the story overall. I understand it can be considered the most filler of fillers, but...
00:50:51
Speaker
Even like the visuals, were like they were cool and they were good, but we've seen this beautiful artwork from this team before. it didn't push the envelope even further with that either. So I was like, it's such an easy kill for me because I don't know why you would do this episode.
00:51:10
Speaker
I am okay with the off-format part of it. I don't i think we agree about fillers, so i'm I'm okay with that. It's just the exaltation of an asshole. yeah no this isn't like The episode's not like... you know, you could do an episode about Neelix. No one's going to enjoy that, but it's like, we're going to see the good side of Neelix and the bad side of Neelix.
00:51:27
Speaker
This episode ends going like, there is no good side of peanut hamper. Right. So then why are, why do we care about her? but Yeah. Why are we, why why are we invested in this at all? Why did we spend any time doing this?
00:51:38
Speaker
Oh, because it was fun and it has Star Trek on it. And so in that sense, I think, that's a classic kill then just you're going to watch it because it's Star Trek, but yeah, It's going to probably be more infamous than famous. It's going to be like a Spock's brain or something like that. Now, this, I think, is much were better executed than some of some of the kills we get.
00:51:59
Speaker
There is such intentionality behind it. it's kind of ah It would be ungenerous of us to deny that they were trying to do something. They did do that for the most part. Yeah. um But they really didn't want to do a Cerritos adventure.
00:52:12
Speaker
They really did it. they You know what? That is fair and fine, but we we can go other places. mean, we could start following Brett Manhaver. or The beauty of these the beauty of these filler episodes, quote unquote, is that guess what?
00:52:28
Speaker
We have to do it again next week. We'll try again. See if we like it. So we'll be right back with the next episode.
00:52:42
Speaker
Evasive maneuvers! Fire at will!
00:52:49
Speaker
We're being boarded!
00:52:57
Speaker
The device! Hand it over! I'll destroy this before I let you... Timba!
00:53:14
Speaker
Commanders, the asset has been obtained. Excellent. Destroy this joke of a Federation ship. Leave no survivors. try
00:53:27
Speaker
All decks. I hoped I would never have to give this order, but all hands to it. Captain, incoming ship. It's the Wavebearer.
00:53:43
Speaker
Thank the prophets. Send those thanks to Captain Bucephalus Dagger.
00:53:56
Speaker
Crisis Point 2 Paradoxus is the eighth episode Lower Decks third season. It premiered on P-Plus October 13th, 2022, written by Ben Rogers, directed by Michael Mullen.
00:54:06
Speaker
Memory Alpha's description. Boimler's holodeck movie sequel tries to live up to the original. What Memory Alpha's description fails to mention is that soon after starting the holodeck adventure, Boimler receives news that his transporter twin, William Boimler, has died.
00:54:19
Speaker
so it goes back into the holodeck, not really interested in completing the adventure he programmed, but instead go on a side quest. to figure out the meaning of life. And Mariner's kind of along for the ride.
00:54:30
Speaker
Meanwhile, Tendi and Rutherford play out the movie proper, with Tendi taking it very seriously as the acting captain in place of Boimler, while Rutherford is committed to just having fun. This leads to a confrontation where Tendi reveals that she's taking it seriously because she wants to be captain someday. At the end, all is well, and we discover that Will Boimler did not die and has instead faked his death in order to join Section 31. Katie, what are some of your favorite movie sequels?
00:54:57
Speaker
Ooh, movie sequels. Ooh.
00:55:05
Speaker
That's a hard one. Yeah, it's Star Trek too Empire Strikes Back. Yes, yes, Empire Strikes Back.
00:55:15
Speaker
Yeah, Scooby-Doo 2. Oh, is that superior? I didn't see either of the live-action Scooby-Doo's. Well, Scrappy-Doo does not make it superior, but it is more a little bit more fun in certain ways. Dune Part 2?
00:55:27
Speaker
yeah You know, fell asleep through the first one, so don't remember any of it. ah You know, it's funny. like i Yes, I feel like the first thing I go to is Star Wars. like Is Empire Stripes Back or and any of those. But yeah Yeah, I'm not. some and There's not a whole lot of products that I i go. Yeah, the sequel. Yeah, because you've got Iron Man 2 and then you have the Winter Soldier, which is which is great.
00:55:56
Speaker
So you it can, you know, just to give some more fairly recent examples, although I said Doom Part 2. Thor 2 was pretty good. Thor 2? Thor 2 was pretty good. Are you sure?
00:56:07
Speaker
Maybe. What was Thor 2 about? It's a good question. I don't remember. Thor 2 was one with the portals and Christopher Eccleston as the stupid villain. That was not a good one. That was great money. That's like one of my least favorite of those.
00:56:25
Speaker
I did like that Darcy came back though. um The Last Jedi. That was the second of the new sequel trilogy. But I hated Attack of the Clones. Yeah, I didn't like any of those three movies, to be fair, but I like that one the least out of the check the prequels.
00:56:42
Speaker
um Yeah. Anyway, I bring that up because I think you remember my raving about Crisis Point. Mm hmm. and I think I knew that there was a sequel to it.
00:56:54
Speaker
Oh, I just I just didn't think about it. And then then this queued up. Yeah. Like, well, here we go. yeah And it didn't disappoint in how it disappointed.
00:57:07
Speaker
How here's a question. How are you expecting it to disappoint?
00:57:13
Speaker
I thought, well, what were you going to do that was going to what were they going to be paying off? And that's one of my things about this episode. The season is that it season one had like it was dealing with the premise of the series.
00:57:28
Speaker
Sure. Right. Like what's Mariner's deal? it's like And Boimler's anxiety and how will all that intersect. And in this one, it's like there was no setup. It wasn't paying off anything. And also you knew that they knew they would be doing a sequel to a successful episode.
00:57:49
Speaker
And they making that a meta commentary is we've seen throughout media, that is the attempt to deflect criticism.
00:58:01
Speaker
Like, so it just seems like you're playing with the handicap of like, well, how are you going to something better? You know, you're doing a sequel. It's just not going to be as interesting unless you kind of do it wildly differently or surprising.
00:58:15
Speaker
And I don't really feel like they did that. Yeah. That's my opinion. Yeah. And that's watching it. Now this was kind of like, maybe it's because, uh, There's been some issues with our kitty cat. Maybe I was just down the first two times I watched both episodes where it just the, again, Stonewall, just watching this the first time around where I was just like, I, well, I wasn't interested in seeing peanut hamper again. And I wasn't interested in them doing a sequel to a very popular episode.
00:58:43
Speaker
A holodeck adventure is different, but like literally doing a sequel to the movie. Right. Is where I'm like, eh. What are going to do that's different? And all they really did was more of the same, just deeper cuts, referencing different parts of the movies.
00:58:56
Speaker
Also, they spent a lot of the season referencing movies. Remember First Contact Land and ray all that stuff? like They've been doing it all year long. So what what were they going to do here? I mean, if it feels like they were their goal was to like accomplish hitting at least all of the movies at some point or another.
00:59:11
Speaker
um but yeah, I would agree. i this was I would say the setup for this was actually the most interesting in that Boimler... gets taken into um i the ransom's office. yes Thank you. Ransom's office.
00:59:28
Speaker
um And gets told that, you know, his twin basically passed away. Which you don't find out until the third act, which I thought was a really cool reveal. Like you can clearly see he is dealing with something.
00:59:43
Speaker
i thought I remember the first time i watched this, i thought, oh, maybe like a family member died or something like that. Like he's clearly not talking about something, but he is looking for the meaning of life. that's oh What a cool, interesting concept, especially as the reverse of like Crisis Point two, where now it's it's Boimler having the crisis and not Mariner, which is a fun twist to see. And especially him being sort of, you know,
01:00:12
Speaker
whiny and kind of flipping towards the actual goals of what this is trying to do in this whole movie and it's his own writing like i thought that was a really cool moment where i basically mariner and boimler flip but it's interesting though that mariner doesn't pick up on boimler when he comes back and all of his attitude Yeah, I mean, well, maybe it's just the spectacle of being in a movie.
01:00:40
Speaker
Yeah, true. And being so focused. But I think you're right. there But again, the twinning here. Yeah. This is complete an amazing discovery on our part, I think. I think so, too. Just the whole series. It's been this way.
01:00:54
Speaker
They really didn't want to do ah like a Cerritos adventure. Yeah. yeah they It feels like we were tired. Yeah, they needed to adjust their mental framework just to generate story.
01:01:07
Speaker
yeah like They're like, we can't be locked up in what's the mission of the week. but like They clearly were not able, they were banging their heads against the wall. Which makes sense. I feel like that's that's a thing for creatives. like You can't just keep going on the same track every every single time. That's why you have your quote unquote filler episodes or whatever.
01:01:25
Speaker
But I don't know. Well, in that case, it's like, let's bring back back peanut hamper. But what if we imagined it as like a melodrama that with this this grand scale with visuals we don't usually associate with Star Trek really off format here? Let's do a sequel to an episode that really worked is also like so they tried really hard to come up with something interesting. And then they're like, what? And then what about a sequel?
01:01:49
Speaker
Yeah. They're like, okay. And that is like, that feels very out of gas there and in that sense. But you know, whatever that, like you said, I think they put some nice touches in there.
01:02:01
Speaker
Not to, not that in a way that justifies it firmly, But gives it something it gives it some sort of engine that I liked. yeah That I thought worked, I should say.
01:02:12
Speaker
yeah um So that escapist article I cited during production perspective for the last episode ah mentioned Crisis Point as a traditional off-format episode. But if you recall...
01:02:23
Speaker
it was' I loved it because i don't think it was off format. I just thought it was a creative solution for the actual problems. It was like bringing everything to a head.
01:02:34
Speaker
And off format means exactly that, off the format. yeah So I think that the sequel episode is actually a bit closer to that. As opposed to the first one. The first one is like a direct payoff of the lingering issues of the season.
01:02:47
Speaker
Sure. This one really is like, what if one day Boimler got some bad news? How would he deal with that? Is not inherently an off topic or an off format episode, but it actually kind of is because there's no Cerrito storyline going on.
01:03:03
Speaker
Right. So that that is what makes it kind of closer to that. It's just weird. I'm like not trying to like make academic arguments, but at the same time, like the first Crisis Point seems like a miracle. That is an organic extension of everything Mike McMahon set up the show to be, whatever emotional arc they had going for Mariner. like All that seemed to fit very well. Here it's just like...
01:03:27
Speaker
am i but What if, but how would he deal with that? That was the question. Like, how would he deal with that? Like, well, he probably tried to explore the meaning of life. Well, how do we get that into that in Star Trek in a fun, creative way?
01:03:40
Speaker
And maybe they also had, they were trying to figure out a reason to do a Crisis Point 2. And that's what married the two ideas. That's my guess. Yeah. Yeah. I would say, i would say that's very fair.
01:03:50
Speaker
um And a good assessment of that because, you don't get much personal psychology growth out of Boimler. He's kind of set. um So it is something that we get to see. And, you know, i guess just the theme of being out in space also kind of makes you think about what life actually is and where it continues, where it goes, what what the meaning is and whatnot. So it's nice to see them tackle a bigger topic.
01:04:20
Speaker
But ah a just the way he searches for it and he searches through it for his ah searches for it through his own movie with some NPCs. that That's exactly right.
01:04:35
Speaker
I love the computer vamping, though. Yes. what it's trying to figure out and the answer is what i'm about to tell you which i will do in just a moment it's just that loading bar yep you want my backstory well how about my back which tells the story like that's all very silly um So Memory Alpha notes before i ask you one last question before we get into the grades.
01:05:02
Speaker
The planet Tattashore 9 is named after the Shaxx voice actor Fred Tattashore. Thank you, show, for telling me how to say his name. I never would have guessed that. Never would have. But na having heard it and seeing the letters is like, oh, that makes perfect sense.
01:05:13
Speaker
ah During the holo program, the crew traveled back to July 15th, 1982. In the real world, this was the day before Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan premiered in the UK. I'm not sure if that's intentional not or not. That seemed... Well, Star Trek too yes. and this is the sequel. That makes perfect sense. I won't list any of them, but Memory Alpha c cites 17 direct references in this episode to previous Star Trek movies.
01:05:38
Speaker
yeah Ransom says his best friends are... bonus the bartender. my God. Yes. Nurse Westlake and Matt, the beluga whale from cetacean ops, which fudd because yeah I we never see them all together.
01:05:54
Speaker
So what's amazing about that is, uh, you know, we had a guest on who pointed out that Jean-Luc Picard doesn't have any friends and, you know, like Riker has friends and all that. It's like basically the other crew members.
01:06:08
Speaker
There is something kind of funny about, well, who are the friends of these people? And it's like Ransom's best friends are the most background ass characters yeah who are the like least significant and are quite the betas to his alpha. If we're being honest, like the balance is way off. Like Onus is like a, like basically Quint from Jaws.
01:06:26
Speaker
Yeah. And, yep and nurse and you know the nurse wesley is such a nothing and then i think matt's matt at least that's the nice one i think he's the he's the horny one yeah or like they're all both horny but like they really are looking sweaty yeah um but you know i've only seen them with rutherford and with boimler i've not ever seen fair them but i do love that matt the whale Yeah, it's great.
01:06:56
Speaker
It's a nice little touch at the end there. The picture he shows with all three of them. So good. But then my last question is, so George Takei is in this episode as, excuse me, the voice of Sulu in what is a hallucination, not in a holodeck sequence.
01:07:11
Speaker
Right. Which I thought was a pretty... creative use of the holodeck's potential safety hazards. Yeah. He climbs into something that's generating radiation, quote unquote, but he actually passes out or dies for a minute in IRL and has a spiritual experience, which, so it says the holodeck does help him get where he's going, which is interesting.
01:07:33
Speaker
But my question is, cause it's like a setup, like we're meant to believe he's going to see captain Kirk, like it's the Nexus. you think they tried to get Kirk? I feel like they probably did. ah And i I have no idea how that went down. i feel like he's pretty amiable and wants to do like all the guest spots and whatnot, but i' I'm wondering what happened there. but like i I could imagine that they wanted to, but George Takei feels like also the like fun version to bring into this. So if George Takei was the second ask...
01:08:10
Speaker
I don't think that's necessarily like a bad thing. i think it's like Shatner doesn't do cameos. He doesn't. and And I think they thought, well, maybe he's changed his mind. And and that wasn't the case.
01:08:23
Speaker
Or maybe they're just smart enough to know we're never going to get him. So we're just going to write it as the misdirect from the start. but I'm curious. and i i am like That's what I'm saying. curious. Yeah, I'm curious now. like i i I feel like they would have gone to him first. But yeah, I didn't realize that he didn't do cameos. But...
01:08:42
Speaker
Same with it's the same idea of like we're in lockdown or in COVID. Like, is there an opportunity? Is this an opportunity where things have changed? And it's probably like, I'll do it for a million bucks. Right. so Maybe that's what happened.
01:08:54
Speaker
he was like It's either this or it's a commercial and I'll go with the commercial. That's right. And then Mike McMahon is like, well, we could either afford William Shatner for five lines or do a whole episode about peanut hamper. Hmm. Yeah.
01:09:08
Speaker
oh no is that the reason it feels no it's just more fun for me to torture myself thinking that that's what happened yes it just feels very likely the way that say it who knows let's get into the grades we'll start with great moments um i did love the opening i love the opening of the movie i thought it was really cool and also what is like captain's name is dagger Yeah, Becephalus Dagger. Becephalus Dagger.
01:09:41
Speaker
Phenomenal. ah You know, like it's a fun thing to like open it up, and if you didn't see the title of the episode, you would probably be like, oh, shoot, like you know the Cerritos is in deep danger, and then, oh, Brad's a freaking captain now?
01:09:54
Speaker
How cool. um But then when you realize it's a holodeck novel or movie, and I don't know. I still thought it was really great opening. So, just to be clear, like, He is the captain. So he in this Crisis Point series, he is the captain of a ship that comes to the aid of the Cerritos.
01:10:14
Speaker
But then it's about the Cerritos crew, the story. So, OK, just want to make clear so like he's pretty sure. Yeah, okay. So basically, if we're thinking about it from a Marvel term, the movie is a Thor movie, but then he comes in as the Hulk.
01:10:29
Speaker
Like, that is the intention, I think, behind that. um But also, ah i was trying to think, what is the significance of any of the names? Not Becephalus Dagger, that just sounds...
01:10:40
Speaker
ridiculous over the top but like wayfarer why is the name of the ship the wayfarer that's not a cool sounding name and i don't think i i am not clicking on what the lower deck significance for that would be to be honest that's a great question other than the furniture online company maybe they got locked down maybe covid had just vaporized all their brains wayfarer uh what i mean we were all pretty drunk in the pandemic so Any other great
Europa, Visual References, and Emotional Arcs
01:11:09
Speaker
moments? I have many, so I assume you do too. Yeah, no, I do. Go ahead and let me yeah let me find my... Europa, the Starfleet Temporal Laboratory, where we meet Dr. Helena Gibson.
01:11:19
Speaker
We get exposition, visual callbacks, and it also hints at the emotional arc of the story where Boimler's not having fun, he's haunted. We get a Winger Bingston reference.
01:11:29
Speaker
We get the shot of those laser tubes that don't do anything, but are like the most famous prop in all of science fiction. don't know what I'm talking about, Katie? yes and i think I think I do. yeah Like, it's like that there's like a super cut of all the times they've they've been used in movies. But I love that the shot starts on that and it's treated very much like ah movie. So anyway, I thought those for that was great. Let's see here.
01:11:54
Speaker
I mean, it's always it's always great to see Sulu.
Character Attitude Changes and Animation
01:11:57
Speaker
i And I love that he turned around and said, oh my. Yeah. this first starts yeah it's First line. um Tandy and Rutherford are playing out the actual plot of the movie.
01:12:08
Speaker
then I like that. I did not like Rutherford in this episode. ah I mean, the impetus for them all being there is just to have fun, right?
01:12:20
Speaker
So he's the last... Stronghold and bad. So Boimler gets bad news, which changes his attitude. yeah Mariner notices the change in attitude and has changed... Her attitude changes, being like, what's wrong with my friend?
01:12:34
Speaker
Tendi's attitude changes because suddenly when she's thrust into the role of the captain, she's like, oh, I i never... I wanted to be captain, but I've never thought about actually pretending to be a captain before. It changes s their mind. So the only person unchanged through this whole time is Rutherford, who is an engineer. It was binary. I went here thinking this was for fun.
01:12:53
Speaker
And then once he realizes it's not for fun for everybody, he snaps, he changes his mind. But I understand you the only way to portray that in animation is your hand to be up not going This is the equivalent of Mariner yawning in a briefing. 100%. Shows she's not taking things
Leadership and Character Dynamics
01:13:11
Speaker
seriously. yeah Right, 100%.
01:13:15
Speaker
There's often, I feel like, when there's not like ah an emotional acknowledgement of what a character is going through, when it's so clear and they're constantly getting annoyed by or they're constantly getting mad at or something like that,
01:13:30
Speaker
it's just like why not just ask why not just talk to them um and it's not necessarily like when you write something that's annoying for the sake of being annoying it feels like that's the cue for the actor to get to the point you know and it so to drag it out for so long it's just it also felt like a little bit like filler i'm not gonna lie Well, the moment that I really liked was that end where they're at the signing of the Federation charter and they have to defuse a bomb and Rutherford's on taking it seriously.
01:14:03
Speaker
And Dr. Ta'ana jumps in the way to save their lives and gets killed. And as she's dissolving, she's like, don't bullshit. So they gave her a cool death. And i was a cold but and i thought Tendi snapping at him and explaining what she wants You know, for as much as it's annoying when for animation, you just have to have people be annoying to get the point across. Right.
01:14:24
Speaker
You also don't have the subtlety. She just has to say what's on her mind. So we understand what's on her mind. And what we know, I think for me, what helped is seeing Tendi later on when she's in charge of the Orions and all that stuff.
01:14:36
Speaker
Like... This is good. This is ah an important step along on that journey. So knowing that it it becomes organic, it it all it all fits for me. And also just her excitement. It makes sense just in her whole journey that like she should be a leader. She's a very good leader when she puts her mind to it, but she gets so stressed out when she gets into the leadership role.
01:14:55
Speaker
I will say that the her wanting to become a captain was kind of left fieldy. Yeah. Well, so I agree. and but But I understand, especially with what you were talking about, you know, like how she treats, you know, all.
01:15:11
Speaker
i I get it. It just felt a little bit like, why not just say that from the start? Yeah, well, and it's like, that's why we say great moments, I think, for these shows instead of great scenes, because a great scene, this would be a payoff of something. Right. Right.
01:15:28
Speaker
And all it's paying off is explaining why Rutherford's being obnoxious and why she's bothered by that. Right. and And that's all it's paying off. It's just answering a question that's been annoying us for 25 minutes.
01:15:42
Speaker
It's not actually doing anything. so ah But yeah, it's not a great scene because it's not really an emotional, it's not cathartic. It's ah not really dramatic, but it is cool.
01:15:53
Speaker
it is And it and it in you know it comes out of nowhere, but it's also like, oh, OK, well, let's see what happens with this. Like, to me, it doesn't offend that doesn't come so out of left field that it's like, again, because we know what happens later on. I think that's the reason why. bre Maybe if I'd watch this as it aired, I would have been a little bit more like, what? She wants to be a captain?
01:16:13
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, maybe I put it under like everyone wants to be a captain,
Holodeck Sequences and Narrative Significance
01:16:18
Speaker
don't they? Right. I mean, it does feel like that at a certain point. But yeah, um I did like the ah the moment with the the God, the like kitty ya that ends up just being kitty.
01:16:31
Speaker
ah So that was funny because he draws attention to this doesn't even make any sense, which I am choosing not to believe. could be any sort of aspersion cast at star Trek, the motion picture.
01:16:43
Speaker
Okay. That would, that would piss me off. Sure. If they were making fun of that, that sequence at the end is combining star Trek five and star Trek, the motion picture, which I think is pretty cute. Actually.
01:16:54
Speaker
i like that, but yeah, Star Trek, the motion picture, if you think them randomly finding old NASA trash, like it's random, right that's incorrect. That is a complete... You're not paying attention to what the movie's about. I'm sorry, i just won't bridge any criticism of it.
01:17:08
Speaker
But if the holodeck's vamping this whole time and it's just throwing... bullshit together fine i don't give a shit that's that's i mean that's part of his anger he's searching for meaning right in the holodeck yeah and he doesn't find it in this simulation that makes perfect sense like a program that is trying to update yes that's right you're not gonna find it in science in the data it's like kind of a spiritual or a leap of faith kind of thing you have to have some sort of spiritual awakening which i guess in a way that's kind of what's going on with tendy too we're being honest yeah
01:17:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's it's kind of a denial of her, what everyone thinks her yeah whole thing is and leaning into what she really wants while denying her past.
01:17:55
Speaker
and I also like your moment that you mentioned with Boimler because i I like that he dies or I like the whole sequence that leads up to his Sulu scenes. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I think it's great. I think it's like i think a good moment. It's a good moment. And the fact that you could have an awakening in the holodeck is is what Mariner did. Right. Fighting herself, literally. So, it is you know, there wasn't a koala in that scene. So I just felt like he didn't really die.
01:18:21
Speaker
Fair enough. Koala was referenced earlier, though. It was. Also, Manuki, we get a Manuki reference. we get a Manuki reference. I forgot about that. and Any other great moments? um Let's see. um I liked the the ah just the chronogamy.
01:18:39
Speaker
Just um the whole visual of it. like i i love the explanation that it's like going through time and and all of that. And I liked the visual. What?
01:18:51
Speaker
I love that because I like when Hollow ah Freeman is explaining what it means for the so the audience understands with chronogami. Chrono meaning time. Chrono meaning time. Chrono meaning time. The fact that they put studio producer notes that Boimler was that adherent to a movie was great
01:19:15
Speaker
yeah ah So that's cool. Yeah, that's good. And also was like a perfect like junkie science fiction concept, right? The Kronigami is ridiculous. Any others?
01:19:27
Speaker
I think that might be it. So I like the, I think it was a great moment. I want to say I like, I'm actually trying to be like scientific here. I think it's a great moment when Boimler and Mariner get into their fight after Boimler's gone off mission and they're looking at the back.
01:19:42
Speaker
tattoo guy or whatever. There's some really good lines in here that are both funny. Uh, knick-knack. No, knack-knack. Knack-knack. No, knick-knack. Uh, but the also the recognition that the computer is vamping.
01:19:54
Speaker
Mariner's trying to understand what's going on and Boimler's saying like, I can't, You're criticizing me. No, this is bullshit. You know, like we put up with your stuff all the time. And I think it's what helps is like at the time, if you're first watching it, you don't know what's going on Boimler.
01:20:08
Speaker
Right. So you, you accept it because you're like well, I'm trying to understand. And so is Mariner. So I'm in Mariner's shoes, but also I can be quickly in Boimler's shoes because like Mariner, shut up. You're always doing this on every real life mission. You're like, I want to go on a detour.
01:20:22
Speaker
Like this is perfectly your thing. So shut up. but Yeah, it's but also i think it ends very cleverly where ah Mariner when she exits the holodeck and it's in the letterbox 16 by 9 framing the whole movie, The Holodeck Adventure. She has to step over the black bar to exit the holodeck.
01:20:44
Speaker
I forgot about that part and I just rewatched this yesterday. No, I think that the whole moment because of, especially with that as a capper, it works on many levels. Yeah, it does. um You mentioned the Kitty Hawk reveal. I think that's good.
01:21:00
Speaker
All right. thought that was a great moment for all the reasons we've said. um And then I think William Boimler questioning why section 31 has a badge is a lot of fun. i did too. Yeah. but It was, it was very funny. And I do love the moment where it was like, I hate when there's a cliffhanger. Yes. Yeah. I said in our description, we see that Boimler like Boimler survives, but like, they don't know that.
01:21:24
Speaker
And in fact, nobody finds that out in the Star Trek universe until the penultimate episode of Lower Decks. Right. But yeah, but I thought that was just a nice moment. This is ah the first time, I believe, where Mike McMahon shot across the bow of the Discovery era Star Trek shows, specifically Discovery, actually.
01:21:45
Speaker
This and then the the Klingons having the alternate look yeah in the... in the parallel universe thing. And a lot of fans got really excited being like, is Mike McMahon saying that Star Trek Discovery is a parallel universe?
01:22:00
Speaker
And. yeah I wondered, I wondered about that. Yeah. that i I saw a couple of Reddit posts on that one. He immediately, the the day after came out and said, no, no, no we're just having fun. Wink, wink.
01:22:12
Speaker
Like his fingers were crossed behind his back as he was typing that out. Probably. Yeah.
01:22:19
Speaker
But just to ah to deter any other questions, I'm sure. That's right. All right. Best Trek tropes. um I put the blinking tubes without function. Right. Because it's one of the those famous things in science fiction and Star Trek.
01:22:34
Speaker
And I'll try to remember to put the... I very rarely remember to put links in the description, but there's a super cut on YouTube of all the times it's used in media, but also Star Trek.
01:22:45
Speaker
um Those are just great. um Just the holodeck... bringing about a a sort of like reckoning or or a soul revival.
01:22:56
Speaker
I think that's a great one. And yeah we don't really get that in. In crisis. Well, ah the crisis point one, we, especially we super duper do. Yeah. Like we don't,
01:23:07
Speaker
When Next Generation was using it, it was so rare that something meaningful was coming out of the holodeck. And ah it would be used as a tool sometimes. And you have some cool shit going on or funny shit going on in there.
01:23:19
Speaker
But very rarely was the holodeck itself the adventure in there. um like Unless it was the villain. Right. Well, I'm trying to think, like, will Worf and Kalar first hook up in the holodeck?
01:23:32
Speaker
That's also where Geordi takes all of his dates. Yeah. Well, that's where where else you're going to go. I mean, the Arboretum, I guess. Ten forward. Ten forward, yeah. um We go to ten forward every night.
01:23:44
Speaker
Fair. there ah Yeah, that's a good one. Any other best trick trips? How about yourself? I penalize this one heavily,
Meta Commentary and Character Interactions
01:23:54
Speaker
I'm sure. In my crisis point, I had a lot of other best Trek tropes that they were using in the movie, the fake movie.
01:24:00
Speaker
ah But I hear I penalize them because like we've they've already done that. So I don't want to give them any points for... You know, it's like, okay, the show is built on doing meta commentary, meta jokes.
01:24:12
Speaker
So then you do a movie within the show layer that on there. You doing it again doesn't really change my thinking about it ah It doesn't rise to best, I guess is what I'm saying. It doesn't become the cream of the crap.
01:24:32
Speaker
Yeah. Like the fact that you, I think the Star Trek idea of you try to find God and when you do, God's an asshole. That is kind of what's going on here with his quest to try to, again, twinning.
01:24:46
Speaker
These two episodes, like in both cases, God's an asshole. yeah Technically it's another AI God because it's trying to come up with it. And I did have that, like, I like that, you know, we go through these NPCs and we see sort of like the background characters a little bit more fully. And that was not necessarily a track trip, it was just something that I liked about it.
01:25:06
Speaker
um and i love that they basically did prison break on the back of that guy's like saggy skin. That's right. That's exactly right. so yeah i mean you're right the i think the god is an asshole as a trek trope is a good one yeah should be in there as well yeah um where's trek tropes oh man just the okay it's not a trek trope it's a lower dextrope it's just the annoying character not really realizing how annoying they are and until somebody flies off the handle
01:25:41
Speaker
That's a good one. I forgot to mention this in the last episode, but we are Starfleet. Yes. Yeah. No, they, I noticed it a lot more in this episode because there's a couple. Well, Peter Hamper says I'm Starfleet, which is the it's under the same umbrella. And it's like, no, you're not. Shut up.
01:25:57
Speaker
Which is, but it also is kind of perfect for her in general. Yes. There is something to be said that like, that is a good sarcastic use of it, but ah her earnestness in that moment.
01:26:08
Speaker
Yeah. But I still think the fact that it's a thing, it's kind of like the go to work catchphrase of like a, it's part of the house style of secret. I doubt not. I'm not for it and I don't like it. I don't think it works.
01:26:19
Speaker
I don't know what we gain from it other than conforming it to how we talk today, which yeah not I'm not a fan of. um Most cosplayable character or moment.
Iconic Scenes and Visual Storytelling
01:26:30
Speaker
um i had home oh i had the saggy skin guy that's a great one so because i left it blank because i was like well i guess you go with knack knack or knack knack and i think you know if he the kitty you know i'm just it's like someone's got to have gone as the beluga whales
01:26:52
Speaker
Oh, yeah. There's got to have been a couple. So just seeing him in that photo with Ransom, I thought was fun. But you're right. I think it's the back mat guy. acman yeah Back Back mat. All right. they Now it's time for the line, Mr. Jones. Great lines.
01:27:06
Speaker
Okay, so one that I ah totally thought I had for the last episode, but really for this one, but it's Shaq's... I think this is maybe Shaq's only line in the episode, too. um But it's when he's about to ah confront some of the enemies, and he says, look, we don't need that. The Australian punks that are holding them up in 1982. Yes, with a with the boombox and everything. Yes. It's so good.
01:27:30
Speaker
Look, we don't need any... headbutt witnesses such a good line it's an amazing line i have it too uh boimler thank you knack knack and then nick knack or neck nick knack says nick knack just like the way he says nick knack um ransom when i've got a case of the blues i lean on my besties pretty hard i don't know what i'd do now without honas the bartender nurse westlake and matt the whale friends for life but family his friends were like the fact that he has to say their titles for people to understand who they are because we're all going who is that again yeah um i loved when basically mariner i i don't have the line written out um because i was gonna look this up later and i couldn't didn't have enough time but i love when mariner calls out that boiler is just going on ah tear with a bunch of npcs uh
01:28:26
Speaker
That's right. She's like, here's where Boimler's going to give his speech. And then he just starts beating the shit out of him. She's like, oh we we can do it Kirk style. Cool. Yeah. yeah All right. Obviously, Sulu's Oh My. Oh My No. Captain Kirk.
01:28:43
Speaker
Now it's time for the line must be drawn here. Great art. um The. hey I did. like i the it It was honest, it was the the fever dream that Boimler gets into and with su it's not anything in particular.
01:29:01
Speaker
beautifully drawn or anything like that it just kind of gives you those warm tones of like even the horse and everything all of that just feels like oh yeah this is like your pre-death what's what's the um it's the the buddhist thing that like one of the severance episodes is called oh i don't right i haven't seen that one yet i've gotten there okay i guess you're thinking of like purgatory or like the waiting room or something yeah it's like it's like the dream that you have before you die type of thing Okay.
01:29:32
Speaker
i I think that's great because, you know, I like that sequence where he does actually die. but um And the Sulu scene sequence, fine. I, though, like I said, held all that against this episode because they were sequelizing their own episode, which already did all this.
01:29:49
Speaker
So them doing it again to me was like, you're just tracing. Like we see visual cues when they're looking at the... the chronogamy thing. Yeah. It's like, it looks like the briefing video from Star Trek II and, and, and that did remind me of when I was a kid and Nintendo was like the thing. Yes. And, and I was young. I was like nine,
01:30:13
Speaker
And I was starting to understand what things are. So like the visuals in the video game are called graphics. And my friend who got all the new video games, ah he was, we got Ninja guided or he got Ninja guided.
01:30:25
Speaker
And we were going to play, meaning i was going to watch him play. And, and, We were running into his room to and it was down at the end of a long hallway. And I said, let's check out the graphics. And I trip over the rug. So I always remember that for video games. I didn't hurt myself. It was just a very funny thing that I did it while say, let's check out the graphics. So whenever I was here, anyone exalting graphics, I think of that.
01:30:48
Speaker
Um, But again, what I'm saying is like, I'm holding that against them as and they have to overcome that. Did they overcome it? I don't know. They did what Lord X does. Great. They put the film scratches on. They played attention paid attention to so many details, yeah which made it pop. And I'm so my great art.
01:31:06
Speaker
tell me is the way they animated Dr. Helena ges Gibson in the science lab. She is basically a Bond girl. That's the intention. And the way they animate her is not just how the, the raisin girls were. i was going to say.
01:31:23
Speaker
that was what it was going for kind of, but like the way her head tilts and the way she kind of moves, she has a little bit more being very classy. There's like trying, they're, they're clearly obviously copying some performance, which is what animation does all the time. It's on an issue.
01:31:35
Speaker
But I just like, just the attention to detail on that I'm going to say versus all the Star Trek references they did.
Holonovel Concept and Character Development
01:31:42
Speaker
Okay. Which is fine. People love that stuff, but I'm choosing to say, no, I'm sick of it.
01:31:46
Speaker
Do something interesting. I want to see something. And that's like giving a shit about this side character to make, her feel is real uh more real than a simulation thought was great well a it was performed by the great mary holland who is hilarious and pops up on this show all the time um but i also love the fact that like she was like bummed out that she didn't really have a purpose anymore that's right that's right it's like it was like it was actually kind of heartbreaking they could have done one more it was like i'll come with you Right, right. Something, yeah. Nope, not necessary.
01:32:21
Speaker
um Would this have been a fun holonovel to play out, Katie? um feel like the actual holonovel of Boimler's original movie, I think, would be a really fun thing to do.
01:32:33
Speaker
Maybe not with Tendi as captain. um I do want to see Boimler as captain for this, because just want to see all those other threads that he was trying to go for. Yeah, you're doing Avengers Endgame, right? You're just jumping through time. Yeah.
01:32:45
Speaker
what other star trek thing what it kind of feels like and i don't know if you're familiar with this show but it's the goes wrong show it's a british show it's very fun i think you might really like it um but basically they are pretending to be sort of this small town community theater group that puts on their version of different shows so um and everything goes wrong uh it it Famous ah touring company they um called the Mystery Company, I think.
01:33:15
Speaker
And they do Peter Pan Gone Wrong, which is hilarious. They've done Christmas mas Carol Gone Wrong, also hilarious. ah All of those you can find on YouTube. But it feels like with these hollow novels, it can be something like that. And there is a particular episode in season two of the Goes Wrong show that this reminds me of where um the not the lead guy, but the like second and in command becomes the lead guy, and he starts just treating the lead guy like trash. And I wanted a Boimler moment where he does that to Mariner.
01:33:51
Speaker
Well, he just he does, like, oh, shut up. like He does get a little upset, but yeah, that's great call. All right, I'll check that out, even though it's British. Okay. Okay. American through and through. I also said yes. I think the main storyline, but even if the spiritual quest, that'd be fun to see the computer vamping, I think is what's, that would
Camaraderie and Episode Impact
01:34:14
Speaker
be hilarious. Yeah.
01:34:16
Speaker
What part of this will you teach at Starfleet Academy? Um, How to properly grieve a holodeck twin. Yeah. i Yeah. Roddenberry's idea was like, well, we figured out grieving and it doesn't last very long, which is ridiculous. But, you know, I think you're right there. Whatever that is, it would exist as a Starfleet idea.
01:34:37
Speaker
I put, though, the importance of camaraderie and friendship. yeah Human connection is what it's all about, baby. Yeah. friends for life that's right uh you got honus the bartender deserves a friend just as much as commander ransom does so i love that honus is also the one that like everyone is like get back to work he was serving drinks in the picture right yeah i think he was to indicate he was the bartender yeah all right so check marry or kill crisis point two I found this to be track, a soft track for me. i I nearly killed it because a lot of the characters really annoyed me.
01:35:17
Speaker
but but um And I didn't feel like it quite added anything to overall story or the characters. I don't feel like they learned as much, but I do feel like we had some really nice, beautiful moments within this episode.
01:35:31
Speaker
I'm the same and Trek as well. So I think, you know, it's just like they, every episode has visual homages to Star Trek. So in season one,
01:35:43
Speaker
especially since it's got the emotional payoff and they're doing They did all the cool stuff with the holodeck, making a movie, I think better. Like where were they going to go like 20 episodes later, almost, you know, it's like they've, they blew their wad basically.
01:36:00
Speaker
And so revisiting the concept, um, you know, that was that added no value to the story. So what's left is this kind of episodic idea. I like the Tendi reveal.
01:36:11
Speaker
I kind of like the idea that the the holodeck is forcing a catharsis. yeah Right. Boimler has a spiritual realization. Tendi has a actual, you know personal career realization. Yeah.
01:36:22
Speaker
And I like that. I think that that's good enough, especially since at least ah As you said, Rutherford's very annoying, but all that stuff is kind of pushed far to the side.
01:36:32
Speaker
Yes. And we only really get check-ins for that. Yeah. And that's and so I think that's why her reveal, it comes out of left field, but it still kind of works yeah ah for me. But you're right. Rutherford is annoying because he be.
01:36:44
Speaker
Yeah. He has to be. It's just weird because you never see him in that role. Yeah, right. And a good Boimler episode. This whole season has been like, we need to get far away from Mariner.
01:36:56
Speaker
And I don't know if that works.
Future Episodes and Closing Farewell
01:36:59
Speaker
Yeah, well, it was, I did like how Mariner dealt with Boimler in this towards the end, not towards the beginning. it was like It's similar, though, to the Rutherford turn, right? yeah Well, once he you get pushed and they reveal what's on their mind, then because they're friends, they just immediately 180. And then they help with the rest of the mission.
01:37:17
Speaker
yeah And so whatever. But, ah you know, ah giving the other characters room for complexity, it kind of shows the limits of these other characters. ah That Mariner is actually more complicated and therefore a bit more interesting and that they all work better as foils to her or friends of hers than maybe the inversion, but it was a good ah attempt.
01:37:38
Speaker
So, uh, yeah, I, You know, not every sequel works. Yeah, it's true so we've reached yeah We've reached the end of another month, Katie, another animated spotlight. It's been a pleasure.
01:37:51
Speaker
And next month is going to be our last one of the season. And it's going to be the end of Lower Decks third season when we do that as well. So that'll be a lot of fun. And ah this month, we're also going to be kicking off a new theme month. I haven't come up with a good name for it. So okay it's DS9 Season 3 Leap Forward.
01:38:11
Speaker
we're to talk about some key episodes from the third season Deep Space Nine that really helped it go from being Star Trek spinoff to Star Trek Deep Space Nine. And we'll start with Defiant.
01:38:23
Speaker
And it will feature a friend of Katie Hampton's. His name is Curtis Fortier. You can check that out next week. um And then, yeah. But Katie is elsewhere.
01:38:33
Speaker
i am. On your podcast app. Tell people. I am pretty much all over the GeekScape network, especially nowadays and when you're listening to this. So if you haven't already and you haven't heard me talk about it, please go check out Internet Supreme Court. It's a lot of fun. We judge memes, um whether they're guilty or not guilty.
01:38:51
Speaker
We also have Christian Cringe, which is a really fun podcast where we talk about ah early aughts, late 90s Christian content from movies to food to songs to all sorts of experiences. um A lot of Amy Grant talk on that.
01:39:09
Speaker
You know, we actually haven't covered Amy Grant yet, but we have covered The Cross and the Switchblade, which was 1970s movie, which was wild. wow We have covered, um sort of, Testaments.
01:39:22
Speaker
ah We have, February was Five Iron Frenzy, February, um and we talked to a couple of the band members, and that was a lot of fun. So if that is of any interest, or you knew anything I just said, check it
01:39:39
Speaker
All right, we're TrekMerryKpod on social media, trekmerrykillpod.com on the web, where you can see all of our standings are Treks, Marys, and Kills. So until next time, out.