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Fluidity in Porn with Dante Colle & Michael DelRay
3.5k Plays6 years ago
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Music by Ross Mintzer
Graphic Design by Kaitlin Weinman
Edited by Moxie Peng
Produced by Moxie Peng, Matt Loomis, Alex Boyd, and Rob Cohen
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Zencastr
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, I'm Rob, and thanks for discovering Season 1 of Two Bye Guys. We hope you enjoy it. So in Season 1, we recorded everything in person. It was pre-pandemic, and we used professional sound booths. And as you'll hear, the audio quality is pretty great. But it was also very complicated and expensive. And when the pandemic hit, those booths became impossible.
00:00:23
Speaker
So in season two, we tried recording interviews locally while chatting on Zoom, which kind of worked. But the audio quality was spotty. Sometimes people made manual mistakes with the recording. It was a huge hassle for me to receive the files, convert the formats, compile the audio, edit by hand. I knew I needed a better solution if I was going to continue the podcast.
00:00:46
Speaker
And Zencaster was that solution. The thing that was most important to me, knowing how the process works, is that the audio gets recorded locally, not over the internet like Zoom does. When you get up to seasons three and four, you'll hear how good the audio quality is. It rivals what you're about to hear from season one, which was recorded in professional sound booths. And it's so much easier and cheaper. Everyone can record from home with whatever equipment they have, even just a laptop's built-in mic.
00:01:15
Speaker
And then there's the editing and post-production. I used to have to go through every track manually, reducing background noise, mixing volumes and levels, making sure my guest and I were synced. Now Zencaster post-production takes care of all of that and delivers ready to upload files. So if you're thinking about starting your own podcast, I highly recommend Zencaster. It's easy, it's affordable, and it's very reliable, and the sound quality is great.
00:01:40
Speaker
And now if you go to zencaster.com slash pricing and enter promo code 2BUYGUYS, you'll get 30% off your first three months. That's z-e-n-c-a-s-t-r dot com slash pricing promo code 2BUYGUYS for 30% off your first three months. It's time to share your story with Zencaster.
00:02:00
Speaker
How do you prepare for a shoot? Do a little breathing exercise? Yeah, a similar like mental goose bravas, if you will. I just start taking off my clothes.
Meet the Guests: Dante Cole and Michael Del Rey
00:02:09
Speaker
Okay, let's try it.
00:02:16
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to two Buy Guys. I am here by myself today in Los Angeles, just one Buy Guy, but here with two more. So we have three. I'm here with Dante Cole and Michael Del Rey, who are two models, adult performers, content creators living in Los Angeles, pushing the boundaries of fluid representation in the porn industry. And I'm very excited to have them here. Welcome, Dante and Michael. Thank you. Glad to be here.
00:02:45
Speaker
So yeah, this actually came about from that Slut Ever show that we were in. Alex and I were in that show and Dante appeared in the first section about bisexuality in the porn industry. And then Dante connected us to Michael. And so let's start by, why don't you guys introduce yourselves, anything else I left out, and also what are your pronouns and how do you identify on any spectrums you'd
Exploring Sexual Fluidity and Labels
00:03:10
Speaker
like to identify on?
00:03:11
Speaker
Okay, yeah, I'm Michael Del Rey. Him is perfectly fine, but I identify as pansexual. I think bi is an overarching umbrella. Bi is the more easy, layman's terms way for people to understand exactly what I do identify as, but pansexual would be more accurate to how I identify.
00:03:27
Speaker
I am Dante Cole. Key him is what I use, I guess. I've actually never had to mention that. Standardize that question. There we go. Popping my cherry. But as far as my sexuality goes, in general, I try not to use titles. It's not like I'm against the use of titles, like Gay, Straight, Bi, Pan, whatever.
00:03:52
Speaker
It's just easier for me just to be like I prefer women but that to some people would mean bi or pan because then I'm also interested in men to Whatever extent at that specific moment But both of you are sort of fluid like oh, yeah talk a little more about what pansexual means to you and and how you sort of came to these identities Yeah, I mean I definitely knew I was not
00:04:22
Speaker
100%
High School Stories and Evolving Identities
00:04:23
Speaker
straight pretty, I mean, I wouldn't say early on. I think some people know it like five and six, you know, I was definitely more than like, I think I was probably like 16 and I realized my varsity football captain I didn't just admire. And I ended up fucking around with this, like the one openly gay kid in high school.
00:04:39
Speaker
I mean, I feel like my mom kind of should have put it together when I was, like, getting workout Barbies and stuff. Like, five years old, my first CD was Britney Spears. I didn't think he'd put a thing or two together, but I'm also from Wisconsin, so it's not, like, super open to that. But, so anyways, I kind of progressed, and I thought, oh, I used to say...
00:04:55
Speaker
you know, hetero flexible, you know, because I did think I was more hetero. And then I really just got more opportunities to explore, like, the gay side of me, if you will. And then I started to be like, well, what the fuck here? Because this definitely is not holding to one side or the other.
00:05:10
Speaker
And it's like bouncing back and forth depending on the week, depending on how hot the guys on fucking, depending on how hot the girls on fucking, you know what I mean? It comes and goes, you know, you have a good experience with pussy, you know, you want to go for seconds, you know, sometimes you have a bad one, you're like, let's switch it up a bit. I know exactly what you mean. Okay. But yeah, and then as, well, I kind of like fell in love with this girl and she's trans and I realized that it all kind of really did not come down to
00:05:37
Speaker
sexual organs or sexual identity or like gender identity. For me, it was more about just like hot is hot. And then someone's like, oh, so it's about like their emotions. Like, no, I have standards. I give a fuck about your emotions. Okay, if you're hot. But I just realized that that didn't necessarily correlate with like gender at all. You can find people attractive of any gender. Yeah. And do you use pan as opposed to bi? Well, I pretty openly say pansexual, but like when I'm in bi porn, like they'll always list it as bi. I'm not going to like
00:06:06
Speaker
go out of my way to be like, no, I'm not bi, because, I mean, I kind of am bi, like, for me to ask. Right. I think it's just, like, everyone's opinion on the term bi at that point. Yeah, for sure. And how about you? How did you come to this identity, and,
Dante's Journey to Bisexuality
00:06:18
Speaker
like, when did you realize you were fluid sexually? Uh, so pretty much my whole life, I'd never had any sort of trigger or thing where I was like, huh, maybe, maybe I am interested in guys. And then I, uh, was 18 years old on my first porn scene, and it was with a guy.
00:06:37
Speaker
and I had never even kissed a guy before and then so I just went and jumped right into the scene like fuck it and then I was like huh that's not so bad and so it just kind of everything mind you I'm 25 now so over the course of seven years that's you know evolved quite a bit and so now I'm just like a lot more comfortable with who I am and just like allowing myself to be like
00:06:58
Speaker
Interested in what I want to be interested in and I relate a lot with Michael because it's like for me right now guys are more of like Sexual interests. I've never had a romantic interest in a sense, but that's not to say that that can't happen I'm just like it just hasn't come around yet
00:07:13
Speaker
Right. I think I identify with that a lot because for me it started very much as a sexual attraction to men. But then as I opened myself up, then I started to realize, well, maybe something emotional is possible too. And it sort of happened very slowly once you open yourself up. Right, right. So the porn triggered you realizing that you might be not straight.
00:07:34
Speaker
Yeah, basically. It was never one of those things where I grew up when I was just like, you know, like, oh, I'm straight like, like all that kind of stuff. But it was just it was just never a thing to me. It was never something I consider. I was just like, yeah, I'm straight. You know, I never had a reason to second guess that until that moment, obviously. Was it easy to make that transition after your first shoot? Like how quickly did you become comfortable or come to realize that?
00:08:00
Speaker
I stayed pretty like down low on everything for a couple of years because I went into the military. I had got like a couple scenes out of the way and then for the next like two years plus I was in the military and then so I didn't really do anything then and so then after I got out I went back to that same studio and started exploring a little bit more and then it was just about after that where I really started to like open up and like really become who I am and allow myself to be who I am. Cool.
Impact of Sexual Fluidity on Life and Career
00:08:29
Speaker
So, Dante, you were in the Navy. Was there sex between straight-identified men going on there, and how did that play out? I didn't see a whole lot of that going on, but, like, you heard that it did happen. Like, that shit did go on. And so there's two big things that I've seen. And one of them is, like, when you're, like, in a Special Forces program, like, you get some of these badass fucking dudes that are just, like, they will straight up tell you, like,
00:08:57
Speaker
Yeah, I fuck dudes. What are you going to do about it? Like they just are so badass that they just don't care what anyone thinks. And then you have the other dudes who are like in these badass roles that are like, yeah, you know, I like to have sex dudes sometimes because there's nothing more masculine than dominating another guy.
00:09:17
Speaker
and now it's like well like I'm not saying that you're wrong but I feel like in a lot of cases that is just a way to mask what's really going on yeah so those are your kind of like your two ways but like I said like you know that you could be totally straight and you could just get off on the fact of dominating a guy but more than likely it's there's something else there interesting and how about you Michael did
00:09:38
Speaker
I'm just picturing him in the military being bad. Yeah. That's kind of hot. Just thinking. But when did you get into porn and did you realize things about your sexuality because of that? Was it tied in also or separate? Like a little bit. My story's a little similar. I was like 19, I think my first porno.
00:09:57
Speaker
But I also really, really biffed that one. I mean, at my defense, I did have this PA who totally fucked with me and taught me how to do wrong. So I'm like, yeah, it wasn't cute. But it was also fucking hilarious in hindsight. And I laugh about it with a guy all the time now. So there was a good year gap in there. But anyway, so let's say I started like 1920.
00:10:16
Speaker
Um, like I had fooled around with guys at that point, not much. Um, but enough to know like, you know, I was into it a little bit. I didn't know how much. And a part of me just wondered if it was just me being like a real curious dude. Like I've always been like, curiosity kills the cat. Like if I was a cat, shit died a lot. You know what I mean?
00:10:34
Speaker
I was always just a crazy kid getting into all sorts of mischief, so I'm like, I was already kind of in it, and then I think porn was just, it became like an outlet. I think it was just like, okay, now not only can you be comfortable and open, or as open as you feel comfortable with in Wisconsin, also here's this whole new world you can gallivant in and explore your sexuality.
00:10:52
Speaker
This side my girl. Oh well shit like how cool is that? Yeah, so it was like an benefit when you sort of got in there like well I mean I do think that I would have repressed a lot of like who I was and like the gay sides of my sexuality But um I don't think I ever would have like completely been ignorant or like totally ignored it you know it might not have come out as fast or
00:11:14
Speaker
maybe not at all. I just would have repressed it long enough. Who knows? But porn was really more of like an opportunity or an outlet to explore that. And it definitely pushed me into it a little bit too. I mean, it was a fast ride. I agree with that. Kind of didn't get a choice. All those little like pieces that are like, well, are you sure you want to do this? You're like, yeah, I'm here doing this.
00:11:34
Speaker
Yeah, I identify so much with what you're saying about being curious and being that type of person. And I think a lot of people who are fluids actually have that in common. Do you think that like your openness to experience and your curiosity about that stuff helped you get into the porn industry and like, because there's stigma about that and there's stigma about sexuality, like are those things related? Can you fight that stigma in similar ways?
00:11:58
Speaker
Like because we have the balls to come out and be who we are, is that maybe the same balls? I would say so, yeah. Exactly. I think so as well. It was never a struggle for me as far as being like a porn performer. It was one of those things that like I just immediately accepted who I was or not. I'm sorry. Totally false.
00:12:17
Speaker
up until a couple years ago. I like I just got I get into this like fucking attitude and then I was just like this is who I am and if you don't accept that then you know that I'm not gonna like you know surround myself around you so I was just like it was just never like really a concern for me so like sexuality kind of followed in suit. So yes we were born this way.
00:12:46
Speaker
So what is it like to be bi in the porn
Being Versatile in the Porn Industry
00:12:49
Speaker
industry? Let's set the stage a little. What kinds of porn do you actually do? What studios do you work with? Do you do gay porn, straight porn, bi porn, trans? We've all done all of it. Yeah, we do everything. Gay, straight, bi, trans, kink. And don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean we're like...
00:13:07
Speaker
shooting with Annie in all studios. We still have our standards of who we work with and how we want to present ourselves. But indeed, there's no sexuality limits with how we shoot porn. So do you feel that's a benefit to you because you have more options? Yes, absolutely. If you take a look at it, him and I can work. If we're talking at a high average up to 15 times a month, whereas someone, let's say, who just strictly does gay, a high average would be Ford.
00:13:36
Speaker
And then split that in half, someone who strictly does gay and only bottoms. Now you're down to two. One. If that. And because of the lack of your flexibility, they might not even hire you back anyway, so that might dwindle to nothing.
00:13:50
Speaker
Are there more porn performers becoming more versatile, like following your lead, or are you guys sort of rare? Yes. I still think our group is rare, though. We have a tight group, still. Because you have to remember, are these directors, they just won't book them. If they can't get their dick hard, if they can't perform in that bi setting, which means they kind of have to be into it a little bit. Yeah, but when you and I first started, the whole...
00:14:11
Speaker
branching out kind of a thing. Think of all the names who were in that industry, who were doing what we did. And then right now, think of all the names who do it now. There's so much more. Yeah, I guess, because the people, they didn't really cycle out. They're still there. Yeah, I guess I've always been a little cynical of that, because there's so much shit we get. It's funny, he asked, is it an edge? Is it a good thing? And hell yeah, it's a good thing for the work.
00:14:36
Speaker
We do also get probably the most flack in the industry. Yeah, it's so funny. Like it's the gay and straight side kind of are like, they're not friends, but they're not like enemies. They don't, they just, they just don't talk to each other. You know, they're just like, they don't associate with each other, but like us, both sides talk shit about us. Oh yeah. Like the shit talking's there anyways, but because we're in all sides, we get the heaviest amount. Cause it's just like being on both sides. Both sides think we're tainting either side.
00:15:03
Speaker
Well, and usually it comes down to like the director is having an issue with the director on the straight side or someone having shit to talk something, you know, directors will go two different routes and, you know, then that industry becomes segregated. But I don't really see any logic behind the segregation. It's like for the gay side, we get hate because then it's just like, oh, you're not fully gay. So you're fucking up the whole gay industry. You're like, what's wrong with the gay industry? And it's just like, well, we're just doing this.
00:15:29
Speaker
But then it's like on the straight side it becomes this thing of like oh you're gross If we're doing that and you're bringing diseases over the straight side Which is really fucking funny because the past three moratoriums a moratorium is when the whole Legally the whole porn industry shuts down when someone catches HIV and the past three times the past three years It's all been on the straight side
00:15:52
Speaker
every fucking time. And it's really funny because if we're so dirty, then how come we're coming up on the same exact pass system? You know what I mean? But to them, they truly believe in their truest of true hearts that a straight male who comes in with seven days left of his 14-day test is less likely to bring something around the industry than someone who's also on seven days left of a 14-day industry but is gay. It's absolutely asinine.
00:16:20
Speaker
And it's very, very, very, very rare to ever do day before testing on the straight side. But it's very regular to do day before testing on the game side. And week before day before. So if you don't already have your pass within the 14 days, then you have to do it within seven days and a day before. If you're already within the 14 days when they book you, you at least have to do the one day before an edition.
00:16:43
Speaker
So it's actually more regulated on the gay side, and yet the stigma still exists that it's less safe. I am certain with the amount we fuck, if we were not in porn, we would have significantly more STDs than we've had. Or at least I can say that for myself, I don't want to speak to you. Oh, totally. It comes to the point where it's just like, regardless of, you know, straight gay, whatever.
00:17:04
Speaker
I feel like porn performers are very like safe like and then they a lot of time are afraid to just have sex with anyone that's not in the industry because it's just like they won't even fuck outs. I don't really yeah for that very interesting My six scenes booked up over the span of the next ten days fuck no absolutely not I'm not taking that risk on you. I'm not taking that gamble I
00:17:28
Speaker
someone who performs like us, we're having sex with 10 different people a month. And so the risk is going to be higher, but if you're talking about the ratio, we're a hell of a lot safer. The one thing I do want to make sure to everyone, it's not all gloom and doom and shit like that. No, there's a place for everybody. Everything is progressing very quickly and in the right direction, I feel like. So it's happening. There's stuff that goes on, but it's getting a lot better.
Market Demand and Fluid Representation in Media
00:17:55
Speaker
Yeah, it does seem like it's changing fast. It does. Well, it's because there's a market for it now. People can capitalize off of it. It's not because there's any social justice there. It's because, oh, well, now we can make money off of two dudes fucking integral bang on it. And you got all the post-millennial kids that are just like, this is what they're about. This is their life. So it's like, well, shit, we got a market to them now. Oh, rats. Can't throw away that money. Or someone else will take it.
00:18:21
Speaker
Cool, capitalism bringing us more representation. In this case it's a good thing. So what is that actually like to be having sex that much? Does it feel like you're acting and like it's a job? Do you get enjoyment out of it when you're doing it a lot? Is it very stressful? How does it affect you personally?
00:18:40
Speaker
I find it easier, or I find it myself, I'm not saying this is the right or wrong way to do it, but this is what works for me, is to always take it professionally, treat it like a job, but at the same time, allow yourself to have fun, but don't get lost in having fun to where all of a sudden you're just focusing on having fun, realize that you're putting out a product, a piece of art, some may say. And so if all of a sudden you're just focusing on having fun, then all of a sudden it may not be looking good.
00:19:06
Speaker
I agree with the same logic. I don't know if I always follow the same logic, but no, I think the same thing. Like when I showed up, like all my first porn scenes, I wasn't there as a model or an actor or a porn star or any of the things I showed up as a businessman coming to do a business transaction. And I think a lot of people, that's like the real issue with, you know, people who swing to both sides of the industry is because they see it as, well, you're cheapening the porn if it's transactional to you, but it's like,
00:19:37
Speaker
No, it's not really how that works. But I think, yeah, I always try to come in with a professional piece and then I try to enjoy it if I can. But even if it's my perfect type, like visually I can objectively say that's what I'm always into. If I'm fucking during porn, I'm usually just not into it.
00:19:52
Speaker
Does being in the industry affect your personal relationships? Like are you dating outside of this or because you are not don't want to have sex outside It's hard to do It definitely in many ways affects outside relationships because it's like regardless of who you're talking to there will always be some level of jealousy like on both sides, you know, so then it's just kind of like
00:20:17
Speaker
If you're dating outside of the industry, then you have to deal with the fact that the person may not understand. Mind you, this is all understandable stuff. You've got to imagine being in their shoes, but then there's always that element there. Dating within the industry, there's still jealousy that you're having sex with all these other people. At the end of the day, just because we're performers, we're not all of a sudden different people, we just are more exposed to sexuality, but it is a lot easier.
00:20:41
Speaker
But then again, people that you might be dating in the industry are kind of like on the crazy side. But it does affect the way you treat your sex life. I think it kind of was a lot of the question because it changes for everyone. For me now, sex in my personal life, I get off on.
00:21:01
Speaker
the connection and the romance and then like the actual thing. But then for some people, yeah, some people it takes them to like darker places. Not saying that this is you, but saying... No, no, no. I was saying like way dark, like people have to do some very, very extreme things in order to... I don't know the porn I watch. The porn you watch and the sex you have are two different things. All right, Touche. That's true. It's all coming from the same like demon. You know, still chasing the same dragon. It's just switched forms now.
00:21:30
Speaker
Do you get jealous if you're dating someone in the industry? Like, do you get jealous when they're filming other scenes with other people? Oh, yes. It just depends on the confidence you have in each other. It could also be really healthy, but it's just like a magnifying glass on something. It's like, well, this could get really nuts or really awesome. We've seen some porn relationships that are like some of the most beautiful things we've ever seen.
00:21:51
Speaker
how long lasting having a clue but either way it's just significantly more intense. I liked what you were saying about how doing the porn kind of make you want to do more extreme stuff because I think that happens to most people who watch porn is that they watch it and it affects what they're attracted to and get off on and then some people want to recreate that like that's how they learn new things.
00:22:13
Speaker
Hate to admit it and it's just one of those things that like I feel like as it's our duty to like say like porn Sex is not something that you should influence your sex life off of it is very unrealistic It is it's just like watching movies and TV shows and looking at magazines like people don't look like that
00:22:33
Speaker
Like half of the stuff that we do is just like it's very uncomfortable like because we have to do these wacky weird positions So it's just like don't base your sex life off watching porn It's just I mean maybe you get an idea here and there sure but like other than that granted We do understand that orifice is getting slammed from weird angles and shit like that is super dope. Yeah, we're about it We're just saying but can't always do like double backflip pile driver, you know for a 45 minutes straight I made that one up, but you know they mean
00:23:09
Speaker
So what are the different types of bi-porn that are out there? Like, I've seen, you know, there's the more forced pressured, like, you're doing this to please the woman, but then there's like, everyone's into it and it's hot, there's... I think our heads just jump to like, what are the sexual acts of bi-porn and that, with bi-porn it's always the same.
00:23:28
Speaker
Well, it's just that in order for it to be bi-porn, if the two guys are just fucking the girl but making some real intense eye contact and winking at each other, that's not enough. There has to be actual insertion, penetration, I think, in order for it to be actual bi-porn. I think it'll be at least some dick sucking.
00:23:43
Speaker
at least some dick sucking. And that's like lightly by. That's like, you're still not gonna tell your dad kind of by. That's like cuck. Yeah. What's cuck? Cuck is basically where we're gonna paint out a situation because it's easier to explain that way. So it's a man and a wife.
00:24:01
Speaker
I'd say that the husband gets off on watching the wife have sex with another man. He gets off to the humiliation. Yes, humiliation. Yeah. It's a form of BDSM or kink. The wife making the husband suck another man's dick, even though he may not be interested in sucking dick whatsoever. That is part of the problem. It's that she's getting fucked by somebody else right in front of him and doing it on purpose to shame him and humiliate him and be like, oh, yeah, you can't even fuck your wife's pussy. That's good.
00:24:27
Speaker
And who is performing? He's like, oh, no, no. Please, I wish I could do it. Oh, this is the worst. But somehow he's getting hard to it from like the shaming. This is cuckolding. So I have two questions.
Understanding 'Cuck' Porn Dynamics
00:24:37
Speaker
Are the performers, the male performers who do that, are they bi or straight? Or who's getting hired for that? Is it like a bi performer? I've done that. But like most of the time, it's just a straight performer. It's just they're just acting. So it's a straight guy who's willing to. That cuckold work is more on the straight side though. If that was like more indicative of gay porn, it would just all be on the gay side.
00:24:56
Speaker
And who do you think is watching that kind of porn? Straight guys? I've been going down some different paths lately, so I might be watching that. I think it's kind of open for everyone. It's just kind of like, no matter what your sexual orientation is, you may be able to get off on it. Yeah, because I don't necessarily think it identifies with sexual orientation. I think it has more to do with the dominant submissive role, and that's kind of genderless. Interesting. Or orientationless.
00:25:18
Speaker
actually the first thing that opened me up to even starting to question my sexuality was porn. And before I ever was willing to do anything with a guy, I found myself clicking on gay porn and watching it. And I was particularly interested in like gay for pay or like hazing porn. And so it's like in a way sort of about the fact that you're not supposed to, or like the fact that it's kind of coerced. Yeah, so you're enforcing someone into a submissive position in order for that sexual. Yeah, it's a power dynamic. Yeah, the power, yeah, sure.
00:25:45
Speaker
Right. And to me, when I first started watching that, it didn't seem gay to me because the performers would say, I'm straight. I'm only doing this for the money. And so I was like, if they're straight, then I can watch this and still be straight. Yeah. So that was really hot. Me too.
00:26:03
Speaker
What's the scape for pay hazing kind of scene? Like, have you guys done porn like that? Who's doing that kind of porn? Every once in a while it does like the convincing your friend or your bro to do it. I guess everyone kind of does that. I've just done the most scenes like that at next door, but I guess kind of everyone did that phase for a while. Oh, yeah. But as for like the actual like, what's it going to take for, you know, us to fuck that boyhole for that?
00:26:28
Speaker
That sounds like a lot more on the kink side, because again, it's not as much about sexuality, it's more about the dumb subs. You'd find that more on fetish sites, which typically aren't as mainstream unless it is kink.com. Or it's usually those sites next door that when they first hire a guy who has never done porn before to do a gay scene, they may do their first scene will be something along those lines.
00:26:49
Speaker
Anything could be considered gay for pay in the aspect of like for example, some people consider me gay for pay. It's just their opinion But then it could be anything just from a straight guy that does gay porn But in the scene could totally be acting like he is a gay man, but it's just gay for pay It's just an actual a guy who is straight in their real life, right? So there's the reality of it and then there's how they're acting in the scene so it could be that or it could be the
00:27:15
Speaker
a gay guy pretending to be straight for the gay for pay, theoretically. Are there a lot of straight guys who end up doing gay porn? How common is it for those actors to do that? 25% of them take out more, if not more. And why do they do it together? Hold on, now are they straight models or are they fluid models? Exactly, good question. That makes a big difference. And I would say maybe 10% are
00:27:40
Speaker
Even those tempers tried those boys are not fucking straight, but they don't know how to suck dick, but they're not straight Let's just say that's what they call themselves is they call yes I would say there's a 10% that really hardcore identifies as straight the rest of that
00:27:54
Speaker
30 to 40% of talent that isn't actively 100% gay or more leaning towards that side, I would say it's just fluid. So it's like in gay porn, people that are specifically gay, I think make like the biggest piece, but your next biggest piece is definitely the fluid people opposed to like people that are actually say they're straight.
00:28:12
Speaker
I think the industry and what you're talking about highlights how much of a spectrum this is and how much fluidity there is among those labels. And so people have their labels, but there's a lot of behavior going on that might defy the strict definition of what that label is. Yeah, we're trying to bring those walls down, I guess. Yeah. I think we're chipping away slowly but surely.
00:28:35
Speaker
Good question, actually. Do you have a social mission with this? Do you want to be more visible as bisexual? I mean, it's also a business position as well. But sure, yeah, in addition social. And we go out of our way to do that too. I think we stirred up a little in Santa Monica. Oh my god, yeah. We made a video of all these religious anti-gay protesters on Santa Monica Pier.
00:28:58
Speaker
Down there's like let's go in and like actually try to talk to him first He's like what can we do to repent or like what was for fucking with them? Yeah, what can we do to give back? We're gay porn stars here. How do we how do we come back from yeah, right? We're how do we let Jesus Christ into our heart? Maybe that's fucked up to say online. I don't know So he was like you can't the guy he was like you can't sorry too far gone
00:29:22
Speaker
Don't know what to tell you man. He literally said that he was like what he's like Well, what should we do? I was like, I think we should start making out so he did and so mind you there's like hundreds of people around us We got a friend recording us and we just start making out and like tear our shirts off We're here for social stands too, but it's it's also our stands, you know
00:29:44
Speaker
I mean specifically more as of recently I've kind of made it a goal of mine to like start bridging the gap between gay and straight porn because like I'm really really pushing to start doing straight porn because it's really really hard for we're called crossover performers. It's really hard to get straight scenes. Yeah.
00:30:00
Speaker
Because of all the stigmas, but it's it's my goal right now just to start getting straight scenes and being like this can be a thing There is no nothing to fear. Why are we like this? Yeah, and also there's a huge part of it and I'm and I can literally quote at least three directors who can like back me up on this will say a lot of the reason that crossover performers are pushed out of the straight side is because
00:30:24
Speaker
a lot of those straight performers came from the gay side and completely revamped themselves, started a new name, became someone new, and they are pushing back on it. And if you have to ask me, I think it's because we're better performers, we're better looking, and they don't want us to come in and fuck their women. I'm not surprised.
00:30:39
Speaker
I'd be fucking shady, too. You know what I mean? And that's what I really think it comes down to, because there's no logic between, like, the fucking testing anymore. There's no testing concern with it at all, so there's no sexual safety concern with it at all, which means other than that, there only becomes a social issue with it. And as far as I'm concerned, it's 2019. We're in 2019 right now. It's 20 by 10. Wouldn't you fuck? Coin in it. Hashtag that. Yep. You could have it for two more months. Yeah.
00:31:17
Speaker
What's the payment like? Is it different? Do you get paid more for one or the other? Yeah, you definitely get paid better on the gay side, but you can also build yourself up. I mean, we've built ourselves up on other
00:31:32
Speaker
like sides as well. And because of that, we kind of get paid well everywhere. But yes, stereotypically, that would be the case. You would get paid less as a straight performer. I mean, some of those dudes are making fucking pennies, but, you know. Talking like $300, $400 a scene. But also, if you know how to negotiate, and what it really comes down to is what's the budget of the studio, and chances are the studio has the budget. So, you know, at that point, it just comes down to really, can you negotiate for yourself? And most of those straight dudes can't.
00:31:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, but that's why agents are a thing. They do all the negotiating for you, but it's just kind of like, I would rather be in control because I still get paid more than a lot of straight performers. So how did you get to that point and talk a little bit about the studio shoots versus the content you're creating yourself?
Social Media and Branding for Performers
00:32:16
Speaker
Do you kind of have to do both these days to rise in the field? Definitely.
00:32:20
Speaker
Well, rise in the field or rise with your financial gains from the work? I guess both. Like, how does it affect both of those? I mean, if you want to earn money, yes. You need to have third-party platforms pushing your product. Like, absolutely. You need to use your brand and your social media marketing for more than just the studios you're handing away basically fucking everything to. Yeah. And that's your fans trying to follow you, not the company that you work for. Right, and you can reach out to them directly.
00:32:42
Speaker
And having that option for your fan base is the right thing to do anyways. A lot of them don't really give a shit about what you're doing on those sites. They just want to see what you're fucking in your life, you know what I mean? Like, I do just fine, like, just with studio work. Like, I live more than happily, let's put it that way. And, like, stuff like OnlyFans is kind of just, like, extra money, you know, every month. So it's not something, like, you need to do. But it's just, like, some people are so fucking good at OnlyFans that it's just, like, literally they just only do studio work just to get their name out there a little bit. Oh, yeah.
00:33:11
Speaker
And do you think the studios look at like your social media and how many followers you have and make decisions on who to hire based on that? Because at the end of the day, when they make your scene and they start releasing it to their blogs, they release it on their social media sites and you're tagged in it.
00:33:24
Speaker
I mean, you retweeting it with having a certain outreach with that makes a difference. I mean, it's business. It sucks for it to think like, oh, the porn site has a business end, but it does. There's just a lot of fucking on top of it. So what's like the best thing about working in this industry and what's the worst or what's your some best experiences versus not so great experiences? When you start mixing in the award shows with the actual work and it's like,
00:33:52
Speaker
because then it gets really hard to, or at least for me, it gets hard to separate the partying from, because you're literally there to party. They're paying for and hosting these grandiose parties to have these models show up to, and for some people it's mandatory, for others it isn't. That's my hardest part, especially because everyone wants to shoot around those times, because everyone's together.
00:34:13
Speaker
So you get done with three days worth of fucking binge partying, and then they're like, okay, you got six scenes lined up, like, roger dad, or like, let's go. It's just that you don't get time off, because you're in a different hotel in a different location. It never really feels like you punch out.
00:34:30
Speaker
Think that point specifically I would almost have to agree with is Just like taking a breather just being able to cuz like all of a sudden like you won't realize that you just did this but then like you look at your schedule and you're like fuck I'm not even home this month like you're like I go to Atlanta and then go home the next morning I go to San Diego and then that night as I drive back to
00:34:53
Speaker
home from San Diego, I then got to drive to Vegas and then fly back and do all this like weird like mashing up and then you're just like stressing yourself out. And it's like even people who travel for work business, you know, three weeks out of the month, there's still a set schedule to what they're doing. For us call times can be different times. Seeing can last till different times that can turn into going to dinner with your friends that can turn into ordering shitty
00:35:17
Speaker
food into your hotel. You know what I mean? It can, but there's just never a set schedule. How long does it take to shoot scenes anywhere from two hours to 16 hours? Wow.
00:35:27
Speaker
Why does it take 16 hours? Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production. Depends on the production.
00:35:51
Speaker
And just to clarify, B-roll and porn is the acting part. It's the normal way to say it. B-roll is like when you see like cityscapes, like in mainstream film, like it's just like all of a sudden like a quick cut of like a cityscape or like someone just like, like shit that it doesn't have anything to do with the story. It's like reversed. Yeah, it is reversed. B-roll, that's their way of saying the nothingness that's going on. But for me, it's not really nothingness, it's...
00:36:22
Speaker
Do you shoot that separately from the There's a few companies that like will split it up into a roll and be row days but in my
00:36:31
Speaker
personal opinion, that's their way of saying, hey, we'd like to pay you less for more hours of footage. So I don't really like that. But more often than not, no, you film B-roll and the sex in the same day. And that's why you take it to 16 hours. Do you get into like a different mindset when you're doing the B-roll versus the other stuff? It's kind of like you want to stay in the same because if the story is taking that fucking long, then that your character is kind of reliant in the sex scene.
00:36:57
Speaker
Yeah, I can't see them as two separate things because then to me I've completed one task and I'm in this lull between my second task and that's when I don't wanna do anything. So on my head I just think it's all one thing. And you're in character the whole time? Do you feel that way or do you ever feel like if you get into yourself and the character fades or do you try to stay in the role? I don't think we have crazy, wide character ranges and when, well actually, the shit we did with Lance in Vegas.
00:37:26
Speaker
I guess we could kind of play anything at that point. Yeah, but that was one of those two-hour shoots, you know? Yeah, that's true. What was that role? I was Spider-Man, and Dante was the evil vegan demon. And you actually look kind of fucking good, and I saw that DVD cover. I was like, something about that eyeliner. Lance knows what he's fucking doing.
00:37:46
Speaker
His whole thing is just super cheesy stuff. Can't be shit, but it's really good and it's got a huge market for it. None of this makes sense. What is this, but it's that that sells. It's cool and it's silly at the same time. Yeah, but it's fun. Is the more kink porn community separate from this, or is there a lot of crossover?
00:38:06
Speaker
It's just crossover, but it's separate. It's very separate. I'm not familiar on, like, I don't know. Dude, you're the kink expert out of us, dude. I'm not the kink expert. I'm the... Motherfucker, I filmed two kink scenes and you filmed how many? Yeah, well, I like whipping people, man. I like hitting people and stuff. Sounds like a kink expert. Well, I mean, one could argue someone that's incredibly submissive...
00:38:29
Speaker
Would be more expertized expertise fucking though in kink motherfucker But uh, what was the question? You answered it But actually that that leads me to another question like dominance submissive Do you think that's like a separate spectrum then what your sexuality is? And that I can I'm yeah, thanks for saying that I don't think that can be stressed enough and understanding
00:38:59
Speaker
Like all of this and what we're talking about today is fuck Yeah, being submissive being a bottom does not make you more or less gay It's just what role you like to take it's a different scale and they oscillate at the same time in two different spaces. Yeah
00:39:15
Speaker
Like, they are two different things, and together they equal an algorithm that is whatever fucking label you want to put it on. But being a bottom doesn't necessarily mean submissive. You could be total, like, dominant. No, that's what I mean. It doesn't correlate. You're right. Not just to, like, being more gay, but being more submissive. You're right. My point is, what's seen as the more submissive role doesn't at all correlate to your sexuality. People will always go back to the day old, like, if you're less masculine, if you're less of a man, like, that is what being
00:39:42
Speaker
gay is. Like that is where that comes from. And I think that is just such, that was logical thinking when we were cavemen. Yeah. You know what I mean? And we needed to provide in this angry, masculine way. But now the people raking in the money are the tech dudes and like people who are traditionally not your athletic jocks, you know, like it's switched. So that dynamic doesn't work anymore. And I think because of that, we're opening up to a different one.
00:40:03
Speaker
right but no they're two completely different things Dom sub always find the difference if you sitting there and you're racking your brain about something and you're confused and it's in regards to sexuality I guarantee you 90% of the time it's because you somewhere got mixed up in their submissive and dominant roles which are about sexual pleasure
00:40:20
Speaker
not about gender or identity, and stuff like that, preference. Right. It took me a while to be comfortable exploring this stuff and to realize where I was most comfortable, but... Yeah, me too. I'm a little near to this shit, too. Yeah, well, and I've found that I like to try all new things, and I'm not very rigid, but, like, I enjoy the role of a subtop.
00:40:40
Speaker
which is something that like I wouldn't have even thought existed before I realized that these are different spectrums. And that like masculinity is not necessarily connected to your sexuality. That just because you like guys doesn't mean it's not masculine or that you can't behave in whatever way you want on the gender spectrum. Yeah, I've seen some hell of masculine dudes that you would not want to fuck with that are like gay and it's just like nothing to do with it.
00:41:13
Speaker
What's the best part about working in this industry? Telling people you work in this industry. Really? How do people react? Just, I don't know. Kind of like exactly how you think they'd react. It's always different. That's true. One time I got this one bitch in Uber and she was like, oh, how long have you been doing that? Is this what you're going to do for the rest of your life?
00:41:33
Speaker
I was like, does this make you feel uncomfortable? Like you did ask me. And she's like, no, just sad. I was like, pull the damn car over. I did. I made her pull over. I was like, thank you so much. Can we actually just, and I said it all nice. I didn't like yell it or anything. Man, like I was afraid I was going to get like fucking cursed by the, you know, God or something. I was like, please just, the corner right here is fine.
00:41:55
Speaker
Because just that thought process like to her this was so pitiful and so sad and oh Did you really have to honey? I was running businesses before this I'll be running businesses after this This is a fun pit stop along the way and I think for most successful porn stars That is the case most people who are in here and desperate for the paycheck don't last long. Yeah What's what's the best part for you? And then I have a question about that
00:42:17
Speaker
I dig all of what he's saying. That's definitely a really nice part of it, just kind of seeing people's reactions. That's why I love just talking about it. I would say just in general for me, the kind of money that you are capable of making and the freedoms that you are able to have and the fun, there are very few people in this world that can be like, I love my job. And I am one of those fortunate people that can say that. And it's just, I... Yeah, me too. I bitch about it a lot, but I do love it.
00:42:45
Speaker
Yeah. So it's just kind of like the freedom you're capable of having. You make your own schedule. You make pretty good money. You have fun while you're working. Doing it is the best part. Cool. And you mentioned a lot of porn performers. It's sort of a stop on the way. What are your career goals, long term and life goals? How do you see this fitting in? So moving to L.A., I never really wanted to go down the acting route, even though like I've always been told that it always have seemed like a good fit. It kind of seems like a part of my life.
00:43:15
Speaker
But I've never really gone down it because I fucking hate conformity. I kind of want to be like everyone else out here. It was like I'm an actor. I'm like you're a fucking bartender. You know what I mean? So for that I didn't want to. But then someone was like well you realize you could be like one of the first people to like still do porn and acting instead of like cutting it off and denouncing one in order to get into the other.
00:43:31
Speaker
And I was like, hmm, now this is the one in a million shot I can go for it. So I think that's kind of the path I'm going down. I decided I'm gonna make a documentary pretty soon here, and I have all the setup I need to do it, and just kind of a life, or a day in the life. So I think I'm gonna go down that route, but keep the porn in the process, because I don't want to say fuck you to porn, because I don't know how many qualms with porn. I really like porn. And I think that's one of the big issues, is people jump to a different career, and then they say, you know, try to bury that in the corner and make it a bad thing.
00:43:58
Speaker
It's not a bad thing. This gave a lot of people a leg up. The tax returns look the same, you know? It is so related and so similar to other content creation that is not about sex. Exactly. And when you start getting good at that, well, there's more skills than just content related or film related. You also have to remember
00:44:14
Speaker
We're social media PR experts. I would put any good porn star who's a great social media up against any middle manager in PR.
Future Aspirations: Acting and Production
00:44:24
Speaker
There is nobody. There are so many tools you gain from porn and you become way more multifaceted than being a phenomenal fuck.
00:44:32
Speaker
I'm kind of in sort of the same boat as Michael over here is kind of wanting to go the acting route But it's because I love to act it's so much fun for me but it's also like I don't want to put the time and effort into it because it's just one of those things that's like Something you could chase all your life and get absolutely fucking nowhere with it So it's just like if the opportunity comes to me then yeah, I'll take it up on it But currently where I see myself going is staying in the industry
00:44:57
Speaker
Taking the performer route as far as I can go and then you know when I start to realize like hey You know maybe I should get out of it then get out and then
00:45:04
Speaker
move on to production or move into production while I perform, which is actually a common thing. But staying within the industry one way or the other. Yeah, you fucking love it here. What's your favorite part about being bisexual, pansexual fluid in your life? More options. More options. Yeah, of course. Why would you take half of the pot of gold if you could have the whole fucking pot of gold? Yep. Okay.
00:45:34
Speaker
Summed it up there pretty well. Yep. Yeah, good experience more things to experience in life
00:45:39
Speaker
Do you guys have any message for straight, identified guys who are questioning their sexuality or by people who may not be out yet? Do you have any message for them exploring this based on your experience? It's easier said than done. Just let yourself be who you are. Life becomes so much fucking easier when you just do that. The things that you're worried about, why you don't allow yourself to be who you are,
00:46:04
Speaker
are petty things most of the time, and they end up, like, you realize they don't matter at the end of the day. Well, usually that's the shit that's holding you back from getting to where you want to go in the first place. Like, just, you got to make the step yourself. People think that what everyone else is going to think is the sum of who they are, but it isn't, you know? They got to be happy with who they are.
00:46:23
Speaker
that little bit of shit you get from a friend feels a whole lot different when you, like, don't believe in yourself. You know what I mean? Then that little, ha ha, bro, joke turns into, whoa, that hurt my fucking feelings. Because you didn't own it. You couldn't become a part of who you are, you know?
00:46:39
Speaker
Well,
Closing Remarks and Credits
00:46:40
Speaker
that's great. Thank you guys so much for being here on Two Bye Guys. Thank you for all the work you're doing in the industry to promote visibility and representation of fluid sexuality and gender. And it was great to meet you and talk to you. Awesome. Likewise. Yeah, thank you for having us on, man. It was a lot of fun. Yeah, it was. All right. Thank you. All right. See you soon.
00:47:02
Speaker
Our music is by Ross Mincer and graphic design by Kaitlin Weinman. This podcast is edited by Moxie Pung and is also produced by Moxie Pung, Matt Loomis, Alex Boyd, and me, Rob Cohen. Thanks for listening to two bye guys.