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The Duggar Family and the IBLP, Part 6
71 Plays1 month ago
We continue talking about Josh Duggar's trial. We've got some confusing technical stuff, and everything is bad, bad, very bad.
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
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Transcript
Introduction to Nikki and Aunt Joy
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today, Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki, and I'm here with my Aunt Joy. Hello. haven't done it a while. Love it. We are two neurodivergent ladies who obsess about various topics.
00:00:13
Speaker
Joy is autistic, and I have ADHD, and we are letting our hyperfixations fly.
Focus on the Duggar Family
00:00:17
Speaker
Today, we are fixating on the Duggar family. Music.
00:00:30
Speaker
Welcome back. ah We are still walking through Josh's trial. We're on part three of the trial. um We're going talk the defense case and get into the closing arguments and all those things.
00:00:44
Speaker
So quickly, i'm going to go through the sources again.
Josh Duggar's Trial: Defense's Case
00:00:47
Speaker
ah i used Shiny Happy People on Amazon Prime. Counting the Cost by Jill Duggar Dillard. Fundy Fridays, the YouTube channel.
00:00:55
Speaker
The podcast Someplace Underneath, the Leaving Eden podcast, Time Suck, the Digging Up the Duggars podcast, Pretty Lies and Alibis, Behind the Bastards podcast.
00:01:07
Speaker
I used the Duggarsnark subreddit, the websites Recovering Grace and Homeschoolers Anonymous, NBC News, and Wikipedia. So, okay, how long was this case and how much of it was the prosecution setting up their arguments so versus...
00:01:25
Speaker
defense do you know so i think it was a week but there was a weekend in there so i think it's five days um i think they started on a wednesday and i think the prosecution went to like maybe part of monday i good if i'm remembering i i don't know for sure but i think that's what it was so mean i feel like the defense not gonna have a whole lot to say oh you'd think okay but It seems it' pretty black and white to me, but yeah. yeah So let's get into the defense's case.
00:01:57
Speaker
ah Their opening statements are, this is a quote, classic whodunit. Cliche right off the bat. Well, and also just insulting. Just like, it's not, it's, it's not a whodunit. It's like a terrible crime. Yeah.
00:02:13
Speaker
but It's very demeaning. The defense case is going to be blaming anybody else but Joshua. um they They say that the Homeland Security evidence was bungled and that there's no evidence that Josh downloaded anything.
00:02:28
Speaker
and they I mean, really, that can only that can be the only defense, right? Well, and they, according to leave and eat Leaving Eden, this is their... their uh sorry i just read this is their kind of understanding of what the defense is trying to do but it's josh is too dumb to set up a tor browser ah but they they say like he was homeschooled and he only got his ged but also like if he did it would only be for legal stuff
00:03:01
Speaker
He's too dumb to do it, but if there's somehow right he did know how, wouldn't be. And it's the other thing of like. I always loved it too dumb. I know, right? The Duggars, like, part of their show was like, we homeschool. They do great. We homeschool. And it's like how fast they're willing to throw stuff under the bus.
00:03:19
Speaker
No, they've just ah just discounted what all 19 of their education.
Expert Testimony Evaluated
00:03:24
Speaker
After like years of being like, look how smart they are. That's my Michelle. That's a good one.
00:03:31
Speaker
So speaking of Michelle's, this is a different one. um The defense calls Michelle Bush a computer analyst um to the stand. She's an expert witness. She says half of the cases she investigates involve child sex abuse material.
00:03:48
Speaker
She examined the Carlott HP computer, five jump drives and SD cards, Josh's MacBook and Josh's iPhone. And she confirms what we already know, that there was no evidence on the MacBook or iPhone, the personal devices.
00:04:05
Speaker
She confirmed that there was no child sex abuse material on the Windows side of the car lot computer, which is the everybody can see it side. She says the ultimate question is who downloaded the Lennox partition?
00:04:21
Speaker
Which I guess it can't be proven directly everyone had access to the password. So it has to be logically concluded based on who was there, what messages he was sending, what pictures he was sending at the time and Right.
00:04:36
Speaker
And she says, like, and this is all confusing and I'm really sorry, but she says, like, in theory, someone could download this operating system, put it on a flash drive or a disk, create the partition through the system settings, boot up part and boot up the partition side. And that would be like the steps to installing it. So she believes it came from a thumb drive, which would mean somebody else could have brought the thumb drive in. Okay.
00:04:59
Speaker
I don't know the evidence that makes her believe it was from a thumb drive, but it's okay. just trying to show that there is a possibility. All right. So this is also confusing because there's something ah not, I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm trying my best.
00:05:14
Speaker
first So I guess when she tried to log into the partition, she couldn't log on using a username that's Dell underscore one, which is like a non-default username. It's like okay when someone's trying to fix something, they can use it, I think.
00:05:27
Speaker
Okay. But actually this isn't allowable on a Linux. Like you can't use an underscore to log in. And you'd think the computer expert would know that. She said that the the Linux partition came from a thumb drive, a legend originally from a Dell computer.
00:05:47
Speaker
um and it cannot be installed remotely, but it can be accessed remotely after the installation. Okay. I don't know. It's confusing. it's It's just a lot of gobbledygook, I think, to confuse everybody.
00:06:00
Speaker
it is. now I want to say, I thought Linux was associated with peace, like with IBM PCs at one time? Well, I don't know. I know. So she testified that the remote access was turned on.
00:06:13
Speaker
So like somebody could access it remotely. And one of the hosts from leaving Eden, I put this directly because I was like, this isn't my thought. This is his thought. I want to make sure I say it.
00:06:24
Speaker
ah His name is Gavi. Gavi thinks that this was so Josh could access, like he could remotely access the computer from home. Not so he could frame someone from the car lot.
00:06:37
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Remote access was turned on because he was doing these things at home. Sure. Yeah. So do they know if the remote remote access was being used or you can't tell? It's just like if it was.
00:06:47
Speaker
Yeah. You can't tell if it was being. Right. was Right. Testimony from one of the prosecution witnesses, Bronham, confirms that Josh was able to do this, but it's it's complicated, but he understood how to do it.
00:06:58
Speaker
um And it requires an IP address and Josh's login information to access remotely. So it still needs Josh's login stuff. She couldn't she didn't find evidence of remote access, but she couldn't rule it out.
Prosecution Challenges Defense's Credibility
00:07:13
Speaker
So it's just reasonable doubt. It's a reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt. She said child sex abuse material was downloaded on May 14th, but no one had to be at the computer when it happened because it was streamed over a network.
00:07:25
Speaker
Which, again, i don't understand, but it doesn't make sense to me. But I don't know anything. She also said some of the the thumbnails had never been viewed.
00:07:37
Speaker
So like they were downloaded, but never opened. something Something for the future. And one file was deleted 29 seconds after it was viewed. Now what that says to me is that he had seen it before.
00:07:49
Speaker
Oh, I was going to say, it's really bad. No, that that that wouldn't be. Nope. It's like, oh, yeah, get rid of this one. Okay. Some files were downloaded, but there were failed attempts and some partial files. Like, I don't know.
00:08:00
Speaker
i ah We had to rerecord our last episode because there was a partial attempt at recording. Just like that. So the prosecution under us begins their cross-examination.
00:08:12
Speaker
This expert has 10 years of experience as a forensic investigator. She, so it one of her credentials was like the first major credential she had on kind of her CV is from 2013, but then she admitted on the stand she graduated in 2016 from college and And so part of like the 10 years of experience includes her undergrad degree in psychology.
00:08:43
Speaker
ah She has never worked on a federal case before this one, but she also said she wasn't sure. She had never taken any Tor or Linux courses. After being asked if she eliminated any relevant information from her report, she said, quote, I wouldn't have known it was relevant at the time.
00:09:01
Speaker
She's sounding like there's like she's just good for nothing. Like right her expertise in nothing. I know. So that 29 second video that was viewed and then deleted, um she didn't actually watch it, but the prosecution did.
00:09:17
Speaker
And, you know, it wasn't that he had seen it before or that it didn't work. It was that the first 29 seconds of the video didn't have any CSA. yeah The bookmark websites on the tour browser had one that was a directory of sites that that you could access the CSAM.
00:09:35
Speaker
There was, and this, like, I'm going to be super vague because I know what I've, ah I've never seen this, but I've heard like internet rumors about this, but there is one file that is like notoriously horrible.
00:09:48
Speaker
And she didn't know what that was, but it's like, it's, I'm an idiot. And I know what this file that they're referring to is just like, So is that file just in this case or is this that a file that's used ver that universally is known?
00:10:04
Speaker
Lots of people have. This is like one of the worst of the worst. And like I've heard it on other podcasts and other true crime stuff. And as an expert, she would know what this is.
00:10:18
Speaker
um She said she didn't find any evidence of the computer being accessed remotely, but again, couldn't prove it wasn't. She said that the router would get more information, but she never got it And when asked why she didn't like ask for it, she said, quote, I'm not going to go out and find additional evidence.
00:10:37
Speaker
That's funny. So it wass just like more testimony that showed she's like super not credible. And basically it's just like, this is all to confuse the jury. yeah I didn't get paid for that part of it to go.
00:10:48
Speaker
rational Right. Right. So it's all like, I was confused just rereading my notes. Like it's just all to be confusing and to, to
Conclusion of the Trial
00:10:57
Speaker
muddy the waters. Yeah. So the the only other witness the defense called is a gentleman named Daniel Wilcox.
00:11:06
Speaker
He is a Homeland Security agent. He was no longer with them at the time, but he was in 2019. He was sent undercover to the car lot, like October 31st or November 1st, 2019.
00:11:19
Speaker
He was there to confirm that Josh was present at the location and to see what electronics could be seized, what devices could be seized. And that's it.
00:11:30
Speaker
I don't know why this man was called.
00:11:36
Speaker
They just maybe needed to like show they had some people. Like if one person just comes up. yeah Yeah. Right. Like we're going to show you, we have two. another pair So the defense rested.
00:11:49
Speaker
um Josh did not testify. Probably good, probably good for him. Yes. So there now they do after they both rest, ah they have the opportunity to call rebuttal witnesses and the prosecution called Fetrell again, who demonstrated how to set up all of the things that the defense's star witness Bush said she couldn't or wasn't done.
00:12:19
Speaker
And the defense's response to this was, yeah, you can do that now, but we can't know if the apps needed were available in 2019. These are very teenager rebuttals. I know So with that, the prosecution and defense both rested their rebuttal witnesses.
00:12:40
Speaker
oh So we're done with the trial. We are at closing statements. Closing statements occurred on December 2021. ah twenty twenty one The prosecution and defense both took about an hour.
00:12:53
Speaker
Prosecution went first. They opened with, quote, is this really a whodunit? You just give kind of a methodical recap of the witness testimony, summary of the government's case.
00:13:06
Speaker
They addressed that Faulkner was incorrect about something, but corrected himself on the stand. They were just trying to get ahead of it, basically, before the defense could be like, this guy said the wrong thing.
00:13:17
Speaker
Was it just a minor thing? yeah I don't even remember. what like It's something that they would have seized on, but it doesn't matter. It's fine. They point out again that Josh Duggar was the first person to mention any CSAM during the raid.
00:13:31
Speaker
They remind everybody like the car lot employees were cleared at all of the key points in the timeline. But Josh was there for every one of those events. Every time the partition was accessed, every time CSAM was downloaded, Josh was at the car lot.
00:13:48
Speaker
No, but none of the other employees were all there. At all of those times. In fact, a lot of those times, Josh was the only one there. The defense ah closing arguments reiterated kind of their point of like, we don't know who did this.
00:14:04
Speaker
They're just basically
Jury Deliberation and Verdict
00:14:05
Speaker
shooting for a hung jury. That's the best they can hope for. they're They're kind of counting on people not understanding the technology. They also point out that the defense does not have the burden of proof, which they don't.
00:14:18
Speaker
yeah They say that the prosecution's case depended on Josh being behind the computer, and they haven't proven that. They point out that the remote access was possible. They say all the real evidence is on the router, even though we know it's not.
00:14:35
Speaker
They you know say there's no evidence found on Josh's iPhone or personal MacBook. And they argued that Homeland Security focused on Josh so they didn't have to investigate anyone else.
00:14:46
Speaker
And it's because they were so starstruck by Josh's celebrity and it would be such a big deal to take the celebrity down. ah Wouldn't it be great if they brought down this reality TV star? That's what Homeland Security is always trying to do. Exactly.
00:15:06
Speaker
So deliberations began at 1217 that day There was no verdict by the end of the day, but around 2 p.m. around 2 p.m. that day, um they sent a communication to the judge asking to see a piece of evidence again. And they asked to see the full recording made by Homeland Security after Josh asked, what is someone downloading child sex abuse material during the raid?
00:15:32
Speaker
There are two important things, I think, in that statement that they wanted to hear. And it's, quote, I'm not going to deny guilt and, quote, router is secure.
00:15:45
Speaker
That's funny. So after about an hour, they go back to deliberations after listening to that piece of evidence. And just before 5 p.m., the jury asks to return to court the following day to continue their deliberations.
00:15:58
Speaker
11 a.m. m the following day, the jury reaches a verdict. They notified the court that the verdict was ready, and at 11.20 a.m., the verdict is read.
Sentencing and Aftermath
00:16:09
Speaker
Josh appeared to be teary-eyed but not crying.
00:16:13
Speaker
They found him guilty on all counts. He was remanded to jail immediately by U.S. Marshals. The defense tried to fight to get him sent back to the Reber family's home where he had been staying. Okay.
00:16:27
Speaker
And that was a big no. Obviously. Yes. And sentencing, ah the judge said sentencing would take place in 75 to 90 days from that day Wow.
00:16:41
Speaker
So Josh waits in federal prison until May 25th, 2022, when the defense asked for a new trial. On what basis?
00:16:53
Speaker
I think it was like credibility of witnesses or like they were still saying Homeland Security didn't collect the right. ah like the right stuff it was the day before sentencing they asked for this i assume they were den denied they were denied the prosecution requested for the maximum 20 years and the defense asked for a minimum of five years and while asserting josh's innocence so there were some enhancements to the charges that led to considerations for the like why five to twenty years
00:17:29
Speaker
So it was like each count had different like degrees to it. Yeah. And so he had to consider all that and everything. And that's why it's like the such a specific like five to 20 years.
00:17:42
Speaker
The defense presented ah sentencing memorandum um where they said that Josh is a good person. He didn't do this. But if he did, it was because it's hard to grow up on TV. Of course.
00:17:55
Speaker
um I guess there's something called a history and characteristics of defendant section in the defense sentencing memorandum. And it basically said being judged by the media made life hard for Josh.
00:18:08
Speaker
Which is fair. Yeah.
00:18:11
Speaker
Doesn't make a difference, but it's fair. Right. So one of the enhancements was the distribution of the sex abuse material. um i don't know if that means like actual, I don't know.
00:18:22
Speaker
I don't know if it's like legalese for something else, but I think there was a, I don't know. But the memorandum also said, quote, the visual depictions at issue in this case were possessed for a particularly short period of time and were deleted immediately after being downloaded.
00:18:36
Speaker
So they're just saying like he didn't distribute them. Okay. But that's not all of them. He used them for their needs and then... But didn't share. Right.
00:18:47
Speaker
Right. Those ones. The defense had 22 objections to the prosecution's sentencing memorandum. They objected to children being defied ah depicted as victims, saying that they're not direct victims of Josh because he's innocent.
00:19:02
Speaker
Okay. Okay. There's ah an enhancement related to file sharing programs to distribute via the torrent thing. I don't understand.
00:19:13
Speaker
But they' basically the objection was like a file sharing program doesn't qualify this, and enhance like doesn't fit this enhancement. The judge sustained several objections. And most likely it was just to like, I think he knew what he was going to sentence.
00:19:28
Speaker
And he sustained a lot of the objections to just like, Be as by the book as possible to avoid appeal. So it's like the things they were objecting to wasn't going to, they weren't going to change his sentence, I think.
00:19:43
Speaker
The defense objected to the pattern of activity of sexual abuse of minors. He overruled that. That's in. ah He found the that enhancement had to apply.
00:19:55
Speaker
um The past behavior with the sisters and the babysitters needed to be considered for the sentencing. And i there was an enhancement for the number of images being found on the computer.
00:20:08
Speaker
So it was like a level five, which is the highest. And they the defense said that there was only 127 images. However, each video Oh, well. under the guidelines i guess counts as seventy five images no ah So there were seven videos and that brings the total to just under 600 images.
00:20:32
Speaker
put Which pushes him in that high category. Yes. But it that it got him downgraded to a level four enhancement. Oh, okay. They take a quick lunch break. And after the judge discusses details of like where he'll be sent for prison, rules for when released, et cetera.
00:20:50
Speaker
um Just, you know, all that logistical stuff. And ultimately, Josh was sentenced to 151 months, which is 12 years and seven months in federal prison. The seven months will be counted as time served.
Future Topics and Content Teaser
00:21:03
Speaker
If he if he serves the full sentence, he'll be released in 2034. um But it's more likely with like good behavior and stuff like that. It'll be 2032.
00:21:13
Speaker
And Josh was immediately taken into custody and Anna remained completely stoic. Yeah. And that is the trial. Kind of a shorter episode. But like the defense stuff, it's just confusing and muddled. And so like I have a ton of notes.
00:21:30
Speaker
And as I'm reading through them, I'm like, these are just don't make sense. These are just boring. Right. Well, can I I do want to throw in. So I have another thing. Yeah. Super fixated. But I think like I think you're right.
00:21:43
Speaker
It could be relevant, I should say. I think you're, I think you're right. The timeline is, I think you're right. So yes, take it. Someday I'm going to whole episode on just this, but so the FBI, and I don't have the, in about 2019 created, um had this operation Trojan shield, which was a major sting operation in which the FBI basically created um the like the perfect encrypted phone for, I don't know, but,
00:22:14
Speaker
criminal use or for all the bad things that people do and want to discuss. And um they were actually able to to get this phone, to get people using it because it was perfect. It was great. So all people all over the world started using it.
00:22:30
Speaker
um The only issue was that the FBI could see everything they were doing on it. So for like two years, they could collect evidence on everything. They could see it. They could save it.
00:22:44
Speaker
But during that time, obviously they had to pick and choose. They couldn't go after everyone that they saw doing bad things on because then it would be become obvious that they had this ability.
00:22:55
Speaker
Right. So they would kind of like they would, you know, like if a person was about to be killed or whatever they would, you know, they would go to stop it. But smaller offenses kind of slid by um for a long time.
00:23:07
Speaker
Right. So um they knew that it was going to come to an end. So in 2021, and there's different theories about or reasons given for why the program was coming to an end. Right.
00:23:19
Speaker
but it was. And so, it and it was known that it was going to be on a specific date in June of 2021. On that date, there was a huge sting. At the same time, law authorities from all over the world had to basically um Across the world, about 800 arrests were made um on some of the bigger crimes.
00:23:41
Speaker
But if you look at the timeline of this one, it's April 21st that it happened. And so you can see how, yes, they knew this end was coming.
00:23:52
Speaker
yeah Some of the most severe crimes, they were going to wait until that very last moment to arrest. But right up until now, now is when they could be um grabbing at in prosecuting um some of these other cases.
00:24:08
Speaker
And just this is being April of that same year just feels to me like that could have been part of, you know, what they were, some of the cases that they were trying to to clean up before the yeah before it ended, before they can no longer use this information because there were questions about admissibility in court in the United States. Yeah. and i think I think it absolutely makes sense because you had like off mic, you asked,
00:24:32
Speaker
What was like the catalyst that made them start looking at this? And I was like, i don't know. Yeah. Yeah. The cool thing about this program, though, is that all the information over those two years was recorded. Like they have it all.
00:24:46
Speaker
um But a lot of it's inadmissible in U.S. courts because it you know, wiretapping and all that. but um But they still have the information to then know to get. Well, to start looking harder at people. and Yeah. well onces so So they can go look into it. They can use that as evidence, but then they can use that yeah to know like, okay, now we need to go get search warrants and actually prove something happened. so Well, they had they had the one, the second guy the defense called.
00:25:13
Speaker
Yeah. who was undercover. And, you know, I wonder, I wonder if that was like, they knew they could like, Oh, use what they have to go get more evidence and go, go get the ball rolling. Yeah, yeah, exactly. that's ah I mean, that's how I take it to be makes me want to be one of those people. but Nope, I'm good.
00:25:31
Speaker
um No, I just find this so interesting. And I, I mean, I tie a lot of things that we see and we're looking through back to it. Don't know exactly. We'll never know if that's what, you know, if it was directly related, but with, with the date range, I do take that into consideration.
00:25:46
Speaker
And I think the program is like, it's like one of those things that's so major and, and I'm sure some people do know about it. I had never even heard about it. So I think it's really cool once you realize that was happening and,
00:25:56
Speaker
And then see what it was going on um in the in the world at the time and what crimes were being pursued. And and so Josh Duggar is kind of like a big enough like fish to fry. you know He's going to cause like, it's going to be a big deal. um Yeah.
00:26:15
Speaker
But he's a reality star. He's not like... I don't know, a government official or something like that, but it's, it's his name, but his name sticks out. And yeah yeah, these, this worked. Yeah.
00:26:28
Speaker
Anyways, that's, that's my interesting addition to, to this. And like I said, one of these days I'd like to do a whole, I'd like to say all our cases kind of that we've, we've covered and then put them into that timeframe and see, if there is any correlation. This one, I think definitely like, as soon as you said it, I was like, yeah,
00:26:47
Speaker
yeah i think so So before we end this one, um I just saw that there is going to be a documentary, a new Frankie documentary on Hulu.
00:27:00
Speaker
ah Toward the end of February. Well, we got some we got some Frankie stuff we need to go back and follow up on. Yeah. Yeah. We might we might need to do ah another Frankie episode because we both read Sherry's book. my gosh. There's so much stuff that we have that we need to do on podcasting right now.
00:27:15
Speaker
I went to Myrtle Beach. I know i went to Hampton County. yeah Oh, we haven't even started Myrtle. I forgot we haven't even done Myrtle. Oh, we haven't even done that. Oh my gosh. We have a whole Myrtle thing. No, we haven't even done that yet. But yeah, but but yeah, teaser. We have to, I think before we can dive into Myrtle, we have to kind of like be in a place where we're happy with the YouTube side of of the Micah case.
00:27:38
Speaker
But we keep thinking of things. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We need a few more episodes of podcasts on Micah. Got some very big reveals on that one. so Yeah. so yeah where um So, yeah, definitely check out our YouTube channel. Also, ah Fixate Today, Gray Matters. um we're still We're still looking at Micah.
00:27:58
Speaker
But we're definitely going to be sharing some stuff on the podcast, of course, as well. Yeah, but this time, actually, I think YouTube will um we'll we'll see that the most recent stuff we'll see before the podcast because the podcast is going to take us while. We're going to still finish up this Duggar material and then before we get. So actually, if you want to see the really good stuff, you should go to YouTube.
00:28:21
Speaker
And let me give you a little bit of a clue. I was in Myrtle Beach, as I said, just this last weekend, and I had a very interesting trip. Yes. And when Joy told me about it, I swore a lot.
00:28:36
Speaker
but
00:28:39
Speaker
When I said, Nikki, guess what I just did for the last hour? And it was a lot of, oh my gosh.
00:28:48
Speaker
But with bad words. My husband like, why would you do Oh my gosh. I wanted to hear what, what he had to say. Cause my husband was not pleased.
00:29:02
Speaker
Well, tune into our YouTube channel. And if you don't, we will get around to talking about all this when we do some follow-ups. on my Yeah, definitely. And I would actually love, like, if anyone hops on our social media at any time. I don't know.
00:29:15
Speaker
We're still pretty small over here. But, like, if we... When we release... um youtube audio if i know it's not like as exciting as getting a new episode but those times that you know we're stuck or sick or something like that and i upload the youtube audio if that's like enjoyable just curious yeah because yeah that'd be great let us know because we can we it's nice having that to fall back on like when i had pneumonia and yeah when i travel yeah right and when life just happens yes exactly yeah
00:29:49
Speaker
All right. Well, we will talk to you next time. Bye.