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The Duggar Family and the IBLP, Part 4
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Welcome back! Today, we talk about the 2019 raid on Josh Duggar's used car lot, his arrest, and bond hearing. We're gearing up for his trial in the following weeks, get ready to be upset!
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
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Transcript
Introduction and Focus on the Duggar Family
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I'm here with my Aunt Joy. We are two neurodivergent ladies who obsess about various topics. Joy is autistic and I have ADHD and we are letting our hyper-fixations fly. Today we are fixating on the Duggar family.
00:00:29
Speaker
Welcome back everybody. We're on episode four of our Duggar deep dive. I'm really getting into it. Yeah, this is, this is a big one. This is a good one. Um, I think we've mentioned before, like I watched Duggers from day one. I was like, I don't even know, like fascinated and like intrigued, like what are these people doing? And it always felt like, I don't know, weird.
00:00:56
Speaker
but he' not in a good way, but in like a, oh, you're so interesting and quirky. It's always like, something's a little off. Yeah, but I'm going to keep watching. Oh yeah. And I actually didn't, I mean, I didn't watch it at all. I had never watched a show. I mean, of course I'd heard of them. But no, this was all Nikki's fixation and she is sharing it with me as she shares it with you. So.
00:01:19
Speaker
So here's a very funny anecdote that I actually forgot about. um My dad was a writer. He was a journalism major. And before he passed away, he was writing for like our little village free newspaper every now and then he would like write a letter in and they publish it. I remember that. And he wrote something, he wrote an article basically talking about like how wholesome the Duggars are.
00:01:45
Speaker
And he was about to, but this was like 2014. This was like before all the stuff broke about Josh. But the show was on. The show was on. He was fixated on it. And he was like, he wrote this article like they have such good values. Like this is such like a good wholesome show you can watch with your family. And he was about to click send to like send it in the email and then the news broke about the, you know, abuse scandal and Ashley Madison and of it all. And my dad was like, Oh, nevermind. We're not going to send that. Oh, that would have been classic. I know. He did things like that, though. He would get obsessed with TV shows.
00:02:31
Speaker
And so that was his, like he didn't care about like learning more. Like I want to like be a sponge and learn everything. He would just like obsess about the certain shows and it would like come in waves. Can you imagine if he could like was here with like streaming these days? Oh my gosh. You see him when he found a good one. No, he would not leave the couch.
00:02:56
Speaker
All right. Back to the Duggars.
Research Sources on the Duggar Family
00:02:58
Speaker
Yes. Before we get into it, let's, uh, go over sources quick. I used shiny happy people on Amazon prime counting the cost by Jill Duggar Dillard, the YouTube channel fundy Fridays, the podcasts someplace underneath the leaving Eden podcast time suck digging up the Duggars podcast, uh, pretty lies and alibis and behind the bastards.
00:03:26
Speaker
I used the Dugger snark subreddit, the website, recovering grace and homeschoolers anonymous, NBC news and Wikipedia. So for the next couple of episodes, we're going to talk about what happened from 2019 until basically today with Josh's arrest and then subsequent trial. Okay.
00:03:48
Speaker
So quick before we go go too far forward, I am going to say because it comes up pretty early on, we're going to be using the term child sex abuse material and not child pornography. My understanding is that pornography implies consent.
00:04:07
Speaker
And if ethically done pornography is with adults perfectly, you know, whatever fine child pornography suggests gives that kind of suggestion of like consent. And a child can obviously not consent to anything like that. It is abuse. So get that out there early on.
The Raid on Josh Duggar's Used Car Lot
00:04:27
Speaker
Okay. So we're going to start with talking about the FBI raid in November, 2019.
00:04:36
Speaker
Federal agents raided Josh's used car lot. So I think the last time we talked, we talked about the Ashley Madison scandal. Josh and his family were living in Washington, DC. After that, they moved back to Arkansas. They moved into a house is generous, but it's like, it almost is like a big storage unit that was converted into a house on the Duggar's property. It doesn't have like windows.
00:05:07
Speaker
Josh himself or all the whole family? The whole family. Oh. I'm sure that's where Anna is still living with the kids. Okay. But that's where we are. They're back in Arkansas. he He does the car lot again. It's like they never went to Washington DC and had all those terrible things happen. Okay. So he's back at the car lot um and the feds raid on in November 2019. Question there.
00:05:35
Speaker
like Was this a completely unexpected rate? I mean, I know he had done things, ah but um had at that point, had there been any consideration that like he had done illegal things?
00:05:49
Speaker
or I guess bullet I can't speak for Josh. I would be I don't know. I feel like if Homeland Security raids you, you probably have an inkling that something's wrong before. But I don't know. um It seemed like in the public, at least a huge just kind of a shock across the board for everybody. But at this time, we don't know what they were looking for yet. OK, so that wasn't released until he was arrested.
00:06:17
Speaker
Um, they remove computers and cell phones for evidence. And there were three people at the lot at the time, all employee, well, two employees and Josh. So during the rate, Josh asked one of the investigators, quote, why are you rating us? Did someone download child pornography? That's comical. He can't, nobody can be that dumb.
00:06:42
Speaker
I think it's that entitled. Entitled? I don't know. Like if he like acts like it's a joke, they'll be like, no, not that. Oh, okay. So immediately the Duggar family deny any wrongdoing. They say like they have no idea what was going on. Hey, can I go back just one bit and throw in a little piece of information? Yeah. I don't know if you, so there's, I just learned about this thing and there's like, you know how there's like drugs, sniffing dogs and like fruit sniffing dogs. you know yeah yeah Well, there's actually a dog now that can find like even mini USB ports. Wow, really? Parts. Yeah, they've trained these dogs. there's um There's some kind of glue that's used in all of them and they can zero in on something that small.
00:07:36
Speaker
That's int crazy. When I was learning about the dogs, they talked about like going under the way they tested it was like putting one up under a desk. Yeah. and um in the kind ofminded wow No, that's wild. but Yeah, it's crazy. but But you know,
00:07:53
Speaker
could change a lot of things. I mean, that's, well, like the point, I mean, USBs are so small for a reason yeah and they can be moved anywhere. So and I guess there's no other system of it's not a dog person, but those things are amazing sometimes.
00:08:10
Speaker
That's yeah, that's crazy. That's wild. So at the time the FBI immediately also denied their involvement. They're not conducting the investigation. But then the Department of Homeland in Security follows up and confirms that it was their office at the car lot. I think they're doing a lot. Homeland Security is focused on a lot of those type of issues more so than the FBI. It seems like I'm not sure how they how they delineate, but I know um I've heard before with some and child exploitation that it's Homeland Security that... Yeah. I mean, I guess i don't I don't know why, but I'm sure there's some sort of, like you said, delineation. um And Homeland Security confirms that the raid is part of an investigation, but doesn't give any more details.
Covenant Eyes and Skepticism on 'Porn Addiction'
00:09:00
Speaker
so This is where we get into some of the technical stuff and it's kind of boring, but it's really important. And I think all of the episodes we talk about, uh, Josh's trial, we're going to have to get into some of this stuff. So like, I don't know, bear with me because I tried to understand as much as I could. So let's start with this software that was installed on Josh's personal computer and I believe his personal cell phone.
00:09:27
Speaker
was a software called Covenant Eyes. After the Ashley Madison scandal, they were like really, really open with the fact that they were using this software. like They didn't hide it. I think that was like a way to show the public Josh was like trying to do better or something. I don't know. OK. So I had never heard of Covenant Eyes. So I had to go look it up.
00:09:56
Speaker
Yes. Well, let me tell you the Duggars call it, like they always call it a quote accountability software. That's how they describe what it is. They have a financial stake in this company. I would guess so. Yeah. Cross marketing, maybe should be so weird, but got to think of it these days. I know. Okay. So the website, like I just, just, I just need to share this. So porn is a human problem. We provide a human solution covenant eyes.
00:10:25
Speaker
helps you in the ones you love live porn free. through transformative accountability relationships, but just odd. Well, here's, I'm gonna get, i've I've just been like real spicy with my takes lately. And my take on this is the whole thing of it's the woman's job to control the man and not control, but satisfy the man sexually. And if she's not doing that, he's gonna turn to anything else in the entire world that he could cheat on you. He could go to porn. He could abuse children if you're not having enough sex with your husband. And even this, it's like there is an accountability partner. And so in this situation, Anna would get reports sent to her about what her husband was doing on the Internet.
00:11:16
Speaker
So like it falls on her to be responsible for you. Like it's just frustrating. Oh wow. Oh wow. i Yeah. I didn't realize it is. And you know, my pet peeve is, is calling something in a dig, like just like they have like, I can't say sex, sex addiction. Um,
00:11:39
Speaker
like that's I feel like it's a made up thing and I feel like it's a bit of an excuse. so I feel like a person definitely has a problem, definitely has a compulsion, but I feel like when we put the word addiction in there, we're somehow or another excusing it as a a condition that this you know that they have no control over.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah, like substance abuse disorder is like a real thing. Alcoholism is a real thing. Like a medical diagnosis, there's physiological things going on in your body when you're in any sort of like active addiction like that. I just don't see the same thing with like a porn quote addiction. And like you say, I think sometimes, especially these high profile families, they need to show that they're doing something.
00:12:27
Speaker
Um, and I, you know, I, even like, I feel like this way with the, like the wilderness camps, even there's a little part of it that kind of takes it off your shoulders for a little bit. You don't have to deal with it because you know, they're dealing with the problem. And I feel like that can be somewhat the same with this accountability relationship. Right. And, um, I don't know, I would just hate to have to babysit my husband in this way.
00:12:58
Speaker
Yeah. And I also don't see, like, I don't think this is like helping the problem. It's just probably making every, it's like, certainly not I mean don't know. It's just making everybody right. It's, it's, I feel like more likely than not, it's making the people sneakier. Or if like the person who needs to be monitored isn't looking at porn,
00:13:23
Speaker
It's not like therapy. It's not treating why they feel the compulsion to do that. It's just like, you'll get in trouble if your wife finds out. Once again, your wife has to be the one who's in control of this and you you can't be expected to be. Right. No, no, you're not accountable for it. Your wife is. She's your accountability partner. Wait a minute. Hold on real quick. Is that true? Like is the accountability partner? Like I was thinking it was like it another person in AA. Is it? No.
00:13:51
Speaker
It's this, oh, that's even worse. It's a person. Yeah. It's, it's, I mean, I'm guessing like nine times out of 10, this is pointed to men having sure a struggling with porn and their partner is going to be their wife. Their accountability partner is going to be the wife. I missed the report. I was thinking like AA and you find a sponsor kind of thing, but no, this is definitely putting it right back on the, uh,
00:14:20
Speaker
Yeah, she has to babysit him. And then if he's caught doing anything, it's also her fault because she obviously wasn't meeting a need. And then you jump right on and there is pricing, which is accountable for her husband. I'm not really sure that that Here's how much it'll cost ya. So you'll hear this phrase a lot.
Josh Duggar's Arrest and Legal Troubles
00:14:44
Speaker
Linux partition. Josh set up something on his work computer. So the computer at the car lot called a Linux partition. Essentially what it allows you to do is open and operate two computers on a single device.
00:15:05
Speaker
So it's basically splits the computer that one, you know, you can have two screens up. One side is just like car lot stuff, business stuff. The other side is whatever you want it to be. And you can switch so you can hide what your, I don't know, bad side is doing. And this is how he got around Covenant Eyes.
00:15:28
Speaker
Oh, so so he already had covenant eyes. He had covenant eyes after the Ashley Madison and the affair. Okay. Okay. Gotcha. Or not. I don't think affair. Okay. All right. So, okay. I now I get it. So then covenant eyes would have even been there to monitor like the Ashley Madison stuff. Okay.
00:15:48
Speaker
Yeah, it was like one of the steps he took to repair things with his wife was like, you get to look at my internet usage. You can look at anything I do. Okay. So he was using this work computer for number one to get around it. Number two, then I guess to actually be teleporting and watching it. Yes. So.
00:16:07
Speaker
He installed something called a Tor browser. Um, my understanding about the main reasons to use a Tor browser. And again, I am so sorry. I don't know most of this. Like I'm, I'm doing my best to learn. So if I get anything wrong, apologies ahead of time. Um, but my understanding, you only really have a Tor browser for.
00:16:31
Speaker
doing things on the dark web or purchasing things with Bitcoin for some reason that's big with a Tor browser or looking at child's sex abuse material. Okay. So it sounds like this is what the dark web is. Yes. So the Tor browser basically enables anonymous web browsing.
00:16:51
Speaker
So just in another kind of shout out to Josh's like entitlement and arrogance, I think is he used his birth year as the password for the partition. So funny. Right. He, so there's on the first season of 19 kids accounting,
00:17:12
Speaker
And I think this is when it was like 16 kids and counting. Josh was shown setting up like the whole internet for the home, like this huge home they have. He set everything up and he was considered to be like the computer guy, the guy who knew how to do all the technology stuff. And he did have that just a basic level of understanding about computers, like a pretty next level understanding. He's not like a computer genius, but a computer nerd. Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:40
Speaker
He certainly would know more than the rest of his family who are pretty sheltered and not super concerned with learning those types of things. So he seems to be kind of the family tech guy. So i yeah, I'm going to say family.
00:17:56
Speaker
nerd guy who then has a little bit of a hard time maybe getting dates, stereotyping, but it's a trope that we see. Well, see what's different though about him is he is the first born son in a very prominent IBLP family. They don't date. They do arranged arrangements, arranged marriages, arranged courtships,
00:18:19
Speaker
So he actually probably wouldn't have had a terrible time finding someone who would marry him. Well, and, you know, at being the oldest male, I would assume there was some entitlement. Right. I was just going to say but based on the role of his family, any woman who he got to court was lucky to have him. right ah okay And kind of in a similar vein, nobody Nobody would know like I under, I don't understand, but to some extent, like using the birth year is kind of, I don't know. He could have been a little more secretive, but if nobody knows that they're looking for this partition, nobody's going to know how to use it. You like, you have to know what it is to use it. So yeah, there'd be no purpose in having it. If you weren't up to something.
00:19:13
Speaker
Right. And if it's just like the work computer at the Carla, a typical employee is not going to even know it's there. Okay. Let alone to look for something. All right. So remember that is November 2019. We are going to jump about a year and a half, April 23rd, 2021. Josh and Anna announced their pregnancy with their seventh child. How old are they?
00:19:43
Speaker
Um, he was born in 88. Wow. Yeah. Okay. I, yeah, I was thinking around, it you know, when I've seen clips of it or whatever, I always assumed it was like three kids that wow. They had seven kids by that point and they all have names that begin with the letter M. Oh, that's cool.
00:20:05
Speaker
Yeah, just like the Duggars with their J's. So six days after the announcement of the seventh pregnancy on April 29th, Josh is arrested by federal agents. He is charged with receiving and possessing material depicting the sexual abuse of children. And he could face up to 20 years in prison and half a million dollars in fines.
00:20:33
Speaker
You know, that's, I'm thinking about that. And I think it's, ah you know, it's a fair sentence, but gosh, can you imagine that? Like how terrible, like that one moment of pleasure, I guess can change your whole life to that extent. And how even with that luring over you that you can't resist. Yeah. Right. And you go so far as to set up this.
00:21:00
Speaker
not super elaborate, but an elaborate disguise for what you're doing. Like he knew this is horrible. He knew what he was doing was very wrong. Yes. And yeah, that's an amazing 20 year sentence.
00:21:13
Speaker
So at the time, the Department of Homeland Security did not release any sort of statement. So there was no um connection to the raid at that point, even though everybody knew that's what it was. Like there wasn't a straight, like we arrested him and it was connected to that 2019 raid. okay But it's like, well, what else would it be? So this is when like the world finds out that even that year and a half prior to the arrest, that's what they were looking for.
00:21:43
Speaker
And was it assumed, was there assumptions made during this time so that that's what it was or were there? So i a lot of my research is from the Leaving Eden podcast. Like they did an an incredible just breakdown of like all of this. And they said something along the lines of this was the worst fear that we hoped it wasn't this, but nobody's surprised that it's this. Does that make sense?
00:22:12
Speaker
Yes. Yes and no. Yeah, it does. But he he always't he always knew the answer, right? and he knew what it oh yeah He knew what it was. For sure. He was just maybe hoping that that they didn't. Right. It would just go away. Okay.
00:22:27
Speaker
Yeah. So the Duggar family blog, cause they still blog. I think to this day, they release a statement. They acknowledge the seriousness of the accusations. They offer prayers for swift resolution, regardless the truth of what happened and their love for Josh and Anna. So it's actually for them, a fairly innocuous statement. A lot of times their statements go hard into like protecting their family, no matter what.
00:22:54
Speaker
yeah I have to say, when I read that, I thought it could have been a typo also, regardless of the truth. Right, well right. Tim, like, and what that screams to me is it's an implication that they know he's guilty, but they're not like, either way, they're the situation. They're not actively like screaming about his innocence.
00:23:15
Speaker
PR person maybe? Right. So at the time, one of the Duggar sisters, and I can't remember which one, and I don't even know if I saw which one, they, she posted a statement basically like, and I don't think this was the intent, but what happened was she equated adult consensual pornography to CSMA. Nope. CSAM. I'm doing great guys.
00:23:41
Speaker
which is typical for a girl raised in the IBLP where sins are all treated the same. So like child sex abuse material is the same sin as somebody gossiping. It sounds a lot like the Church of Latter-day Saints. Yeah. In the extreme form.
00:24:01
Speaker
So to be fair, like I'm pretty sure this was like an immediate reaction to the arrest and things like that. Probably you should stay off social media if your family members arrested for a while. So I just want to give grace to that one sister. I'm pretty sure that has changed. So at this time, also Derek Dillard, who is Jill's husband was posting a lot about a whole Duggar family, a lot of about Jim Bob.
00:24:29
Speaker
and condemning, like harshly condemning Josh's actions. Um, Derek was in law school at the time, so he kind of knew more of the legalities of everything. And we know that Jill, his wife, is one of Josh's victims.
Family Reactions to Josh Duggar's Actions
00:24:45
Speaker
So Derek to this day has like very vocally explained his position on ah Tucker family. And it seems like they're kind of rebuilding the book. If you read the book, it talks about it, but they're kind of rebuilding a relationship with Jill's parents. Okay. But like at Christmas, there was a picture released of, and in the background, Derek and Jim Bob are talking and Derek said something like posted immediately was like, I'm at my in-laws for Christmas. Somebody took a picture that Jim Bob said something to me and I looked at him.
00:25:21
Speaker
I don't have a relationship with it. So he's very, he speaks out. Yes. He's very vocal and very protective of Jill. Let's talk about Anna. This is a lot about Anna and a lot of kind of speculation and my understanding of IVLP and what the woman's role is. We talked a little bit about it with covenant eyes. So Anna had previously stated that she knew something having to do with Josh's history before they were married.
00:25:48
Speaker
My, my guess and kind of the implication is that he didn't give all of the details of, you know, um molesting his sisters. So she, she had heard about it or, but not necessarily. Yeah. Okay. I'm guessing it was a sugar coated version. She was pretty convinced that when he went to this camp to cure him at the time, the reformers unanimous like treatment camp that he went to um that he was cured. That experience cured him. And that's what she was told before they got married. So leaving Eden again, did an incredible like explanation.
00:26:32
Speaker
of just basically the law. We're looking at the biblical laws about divorce. They kind of they laid out that um Jesus and Torah law allow for divorce for different reasons actually, including adultery, but the IBLP doesn't and Anna won't divorce him. It's completely just based on religion, not but not talking financial or based on the show or I don't think so. Financial to some extent, I think because she's not allowed to work. That would make it rough. So, and that puts, I would say based on their religion and what I'm pretty sure is going on. Um, I think Jim Bob's probably supporting her and the kids. Okay. Yeah. That was my, that was my next question. Where's. Would put the ownership kind of, of them to him. Okay. Responsibility moves up to the next step.
00:27:29
Speaker
Uh-huh. It's that umbrella of authority. And do we ever, is she ever seen around or? She was seen recently. Actually, there was a couple of pictures very recently of her and she was at one of her kids basketball games, I think. I think she's still homeschools and stuff. So it's like a community league and she was wearing pants.
00:27:55
Speaker
but She still had her wedding ring on, but was wearing pants. They do feel really sad for her. I mean, it's it's it's tragic. It's complicated. yeah Yeah. So let's get into that a little bit because it's it's like, is she an enabler? Is she trapped? Is she also a victim? like let's What is going on? So first is kind of the financial part that we talked about. She doesn't have an education outside of the homeschooling curriculum we talked about um previously.
Anna Duggar's Situation and Challenges
00:28:28
Speaker
Which means she doesn't have career opportunities. She has multiple children, all in different age ranges that her community tells her she needs to homeschool. So she can't go to work. She has to educate her seven kids. And then there's this tremendous religious pressure and shame put on her that this is all her fault. She did something wrong as a wife. that it's It's unspeakable. Right.
00:28:57
Speaker
and then And then to be yeah under the guardianship basically of his family. Yeah, yeah. So if she didn't believe that Jesus fixed him, then she either doesn't believe enough in Jesus or he did these things because she wasn't godly enough as a wife.
00:29:21
Speaker
Those are the two things she has been taught. That's like, she's grown up that way. So it's either she doesn't have enough faith or she did something wrong. There's no, no winning in her. Right. There's a high possibility that she doesn't have access to a bank account. Yeah. There was however, a rumor that the car dealership and other assets were moved into her name after the raid, about a year after the raid.
00:29:49
Speaker
hold up I would guess that rumor was true. Yeah, and I would assume that she probably doesn't have access to those funds. I would guess probably her father-in-law does. does did her Did Josh actually own the dealership or was it Jim Bob? I think Jim Bob own it owned it and gave it to him or sold it to him somehow, but I think it was all in his name, Josh's name.
00:30:18
Speaker
So even her living situation is all based on the Duggar family. She lives, we mentioned this before, a windowless barn on the Duggar property and Jim Bob's names on the lease. I mean, she's trapped. I mean, I don't, I don't really know how to even else to explain it. I mean, I don't, like I just can't see her. I don't think it's fair to say she was an enabler that's blaming her for yet another. Well, I think.
00:30:47
Speaker
We'll get into a bit more. um She's made some very strong statements that lose me, that she's not in some ways taking responsibility for the safety of her children. And I don't think she believes Josh is guilty. She's in complete denial. and So the does the rest of the family admits to it now. and A lot of them do. I don't know what Jim Bob and Michelle think truly, but like their adult children are all like, yeah, this is horrible and this is a nightmare and we're never talking to him again. and like um they say and So in theory, if Anna got divorced, she could get child support even from Jim Bob while Josh is in prison.
00:31:35
Speaker
She could get wick. She could get housing assistance. She could like get a book deal or her own reality show. Like people would die to make a reality show about Anna right now, but she doesn't believe that she has access to any of these options because she's not allowed to make decisions on her own without the authority of her husband or in lieu of her husband, her father-in-law. It's just so much shaming. I assume she grew up in the religion. Yeah.
00:32:05
Speaker
And hopefully she has a family who's supportive out there, but a family of her own. Okay. Yes and no. So let's talk about this book that we know that the Duggar family, I guess we don't know they've read it, but they have talked about, um, the book, how to raise up a child and it's the same authors. So how to raise up a child is basically like a child abuse manual veiled as what godly parents do to raise their children.
Criticism of Harmful Marital Advice Books
00:32:35
Speaker
involves a lot of hitting. Okay. So is this specific to their religious sectors? is Absolutely. Okay. Um, so this couple, Michael and Debbie Pearl wrote, wrote these books. Debbie Pearl wrote a book called created to be his help meet.
00:32:53
Speaker
And in this book, um, it just tells you all the ways you have to be a good wife. Right. It's basically like, this is the wife manual. If you do all these things, you're the perfect godly wife for your husband and he'll never do anything bad. Um, just three times a charm. Right. That was the third time I thought there was a misprint. Nope. His help me. Uh-huh.
00:33:17
Speaker
Okay. So in this book, it basically says there's a, there's a part that talks about like, what if my husband is abusing our children or a child or something like that? Basically it goes to say if the husband is a predator, you get the kids to a safe place, but you remain married. You visit him in jail. You raised your children to love their father. And when the kids are grown and the father is out of jail, you continue your life together.
00:33:47
Speaker
You bring the kids to prison to see their dad. Even if I was being nice about it, I mean, I guess I can see I can see that I can see, you know, your kids should be able to, I guess, at least see their father and and truly if they want to love their father.
00:34:08
Speaker
But when the charge is related to child sexual abuse, that's where it gets hairy. Like that's not protecting her kids. It's putting her husband who's not there above the safety of her kids. That, yeah. I just think the the focus even in just having to stay married, it's just, yeah. You stay married. And when he's out of prison, you live your life like nothing happened.
00:34:39
Speaker
I feel like the entire community, like not just Josh, but the entire community is abusing Anna through this, these messages that she's been indoctrinated with since she was a child. And that shortly she's passing on to the next generation, sadly. Right. Yeah. unless that Unless the pants were a sign that she's right. Maybe I hope so. But through this thought, the perpetrator who is typically the man is able to make themselves out to be the victim. And Just like, I feel like the men are trained with how to be gaslighters and, and, you know, I thought we moved past that. Like I, I went to that weird outdoor camp that made me shave my head when I was 14 and I was cured. Are you saying Jesus can't fix me? Darn Jesus. He needs to get better. No, Anna needs to turn her heart more to him. It's her fault. Oh. Oh.
00:35:39
Speaker
It is, it's just, it's just gaslighting all over the place. I mean, how you can't, and you can't be logical with nonsense. Right. And it's giving offenders, like it's really doing a disservice to the offenders or the perpetrators or the husbands, because it's giving them permission to behave in a certain way, because there's no accountability on them. It's all the wife's fault.
00:36:07
Speaker
So if you look more, so at this point when Josh is arrested, that was kind of how I was feeling is like, Anna's trapped. And I still think to some extent she is. And we'll talk a bit about this more in further episodes, but she, like I said, she's, I don't think she thinks he did anything.
00:36:30
Speaker
I don't think she thinks he's guilty. i don't I think she thinks this is a big conspiracy. Do you think truly in our heart of hearts that that is what she believes? I do. I do because she's been indoctrinated her entire life to believe her husband. And I also think it is way easier for her to think it's a big conspiracy than to be willing to recognize what a horrible thing yeah he did. you know That you married this person, you had seven children with this person, it's a lot easier to put your head in the sand and blame other people. yeah And and you know and but when they're home and in private, then he you know he I'm sure he
00:37:19
Speaker
can dominate conversation. yep you know it's It's just a whispered moment. um I know my husband better than, you know I know what he's saying is true and and he you know the world just misunderstood. And in a case like this, where technology is involved so much and if you don't know much about it, I see how that could even make more sense or slip by you even easier.
00:37:47
Speaker
yeah you're you're onto something because that's basically what the defense tries to do. That's funny. So I think we should all keep that in mind with Anna for now. up Like I said, I switch when we start hearing about her takes. Also, she's unwilling to accept help from people. It seems like that are not in the IBLP circle or the Duggar circle.
Denial and Isolation within the Duggar Circle
00:38:15
Speaker
There have been There's just been a lot of people with true offers to help that she's not willing to. She's no contact with a lot of people who want to help her, but we don't know how much pressure she is getting from the Duggar family. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, but I don't want to let her completely off the hook because I think she's in deep denial and isn't protecting her kids in being in denial.
00:38:45
Speaker
what's available to her as far as help from outside the church community. Maybe she would be able to take a step to make it on her own and and get out of the situation. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And this includes members of her family. She has a brother who she stopped talking to because he's like, you need to leave him. That's heartbreaking. So, all right, let's move on to more trial stuff. May 5th, 2021 is Josh's bond hearing.
00:39:15
Speaker
So traditionally in a bond hearing, prosecutors give some information during ah the hearing and then asks the defendant if they want to take a plea or go to trial with the limited information that we're telling you basically we have. Prosecutors are telling the defendant, this is just a little bit of what we have. And do you want to take a plea deal based on this little bit we're going to share with you? We have a lot more.
Prosecution's Strong Evidence and Defense Strategies
00:39:40
Speaker
but and this And he has, I assume, a decent defense attorney that they've hired. It sounds like Jim Bob has lost a lot of money in Josh's legal fees. I can imagine. yeah The sentence would be mandatory minimums of two counts, which are five years each. So there's two counts he's been charged with, each of the counts he would have to serve five years each for. So he could take he can take it to court or he can take the steal and move on. um The prosecution lays out a desire to avoid traumatizing the judge and jury, sharing the full evidence that they have. It's disgusting. And the prosecutor said this is one of the top five worst cases of the things he's seen in his career. And he said, and this is all
00:40:33
Speaker
I'll, I'm not going to, I'm going to keep a lot of this. I'm not going to say a lot about like what the evidence is, but he said one of the worst files was downloaded, deleted, and then revisited multiple times. And, and I made the mistake of looking up what that file was and do not do it. I didn't see anything. I just looked, I, I accidentally learned what the file was and it's horrific. We've been, you know, on our, um,
00:41:03
Speaker
YouTube, we've been looking into ah some some stuff about um child trafficking. and And then you put together that those kids are these kids. Yeah. And and you know I don't know why. Sometimes it's hard to make the connection until like until we specifically started looking at eat the steps, basically, in the lives of these children.
00:41:29
Speaker
that lead them stuck in this world and then it. Yeah. So the prosecution also says that Josh is a flight risk, which he very much is. There are multiple, multiple family members that fly planes. They have a lot of money. Like he's definitely a flight risk.
00:41:48
Speaker
So Josh's probation officer ah said testified that there was a suggestion of a couple that he would move in with and that the female custodian of that couple was uncomfortable being alone with Josh in their house. I would be. Yeah. He was staying in like an in-law suite. However, minor children came to the house for piano lessons given by the potential guardian's daughter.
00:42:17
Speaker
And they had guns in their home because it's in Arkansas. And they were like, we locked him up, but I don't know. This guy seems pretty crafty. Yeah. And the probation officer suggested that Josh stay in jail and not be released on bond saying that he was fearful for the community's safety. Oh my gosh. so it At this point, though, there's nothing with his kids that has been, they haven't accused anything with his own No, there's nothing, nothing I've seen. um And there certainly was no charges of him doing anything to children beside like after the most molestation allegations when he was a teenager. Okay, so physically, there's been nothing else.
00:43:05
Speaker
Right. That he has been accused of. Right. On those years. Okay. So at the bond hearing, Maria Reber, I think is how you s say her name, testifies. She is the wife that the probation officer said was worried about being in the house alone. She said that she would report any breaks of the terms of Josh's release to the court and not his family. And that Their family felt like taking Josh in was a way to minister to the Duggar family, which the jo judge says is very admirable of them. So they were not necessarily ah very connected to the family or? um The husband, whose name is LaCount and Jim Bob were friends. Maria said that she'd never even had a one-on-one conversation with Josh. so And he did end up moving in with them. He did. How long did that last?
00:44:00
Speaker
Um, until he was convicted. Oh, okay. Yeah. She found out at this bond hearing. I don't know if he's at the bond here, but very recently Maria found out that Josh's youngest molestation victim was only five. And she thought it was like. The way they spun it was he was just curious boy. His sisters were in puberty, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, it was his five year old was outside.
00:44:30
Speaker
the family or was it inside? No, no. Yeah. Maria says that Jim Bob asked her husband to take Josh in. She also said that they, they didn't have any cable or internet except for password protected phones. Her husband LaCount did a prison ministry, which I think was probably why Jim Bob asked him, but he wasn't interested in actually like counseling Josh, like he does through his prison and ministry, prison ministry. Um, and Jim, he, she said that Jim Bob reached out to him looking for prayers.
00:45:06
Speaker
And just like said, like you'd be a really good fit for Josh. And so he was not able was was coming home to his family, not an option at all. House arrest around his. No, but we'll get to it. No, we'll definitely get there because that I mean, that's a good question. Like, why couldn't he be released home? Right.
00:45:25
Speaker
So ultimately, Josh ends up being released on bond into the custody of these third party custodians, Maria and LaCount Reber. The judge acknowledged the age of the victims, the amount of material he had, and the steps that Josh had taken to hide the material. However, Josh had no prior record, and the molestation happened when Josh was a kid himself.
00:45:51
Speaker
The judge said that the US attorney did not meet their burden and bail was granted. So let's talk about the terms of the bond. Joshua was not allowed in the presence of minor children that are not his own. He could not access the internet.
00:46:09
Speaker
He was only allowed to leave the custodians' home for work and medical care, and the courts would approve additional outings. He had to surrender his passport. He had to wear a monitoring device. And finally, he was not allowed to be around his children unless Anna was there. Sounds fair. Sounds like a lot for these third party custodians to have to police, but... Yep. Yep.
00:46:37
Speaker
So it appears that LaCount immediately said yes, that he would do this. And Maria said something at the bond hearing like, my husband said yes, and I'm here to support him. She did not want this man in her house, but it doesn't matter what she wanted. Wow.
00:46:56
Speaker
So, Josh sat on bond. June 2021, the trial was postponed to November 30th, 2021. Josh obviously didn't take a plea deal. I don't think I actually said that. So he's stretching it out. He's just but he's stretching it out.
00:47:12
Speaker
So Josh's team then requested another postponement until February 2022 and the judge denied that. um Josh's team also put forth four motions, four separate motions to have the case dismissed and the judge rejected all of them. Were they on some kind of terms or? It was just like Homeland Security didn't collect evidence properly, like just like anything. they could They're throwing everything spaghetti against the wall and seeing what would stick. And it was nothing. So the trial was moved from July 2021 to November 2021. So Josh's legal team could have more time to examine and how the government handled the evidence of the case, specifically the forensic evidence related to his computer.
00:48:00
Speaker
The defense basically said the images were downloaded to that computer at the car lot, but it wasn't Josh who did it. Okay. Now you can see, maybe proving. Well, I mean, I think that was the only thing they had. They pointed suspicion on other people, including family members who used a lot. They kind of suggested that even some other duggers are at the car a lot. I don't know.
00:48:25
Speaker
So an interesting thing that comes out before before the trial actually started was that the prosecution wanted pictures of Josh's hands. I didn't really understand this. So we'll get into this in I think another episode, but there's a screenshot that looks like Josh in the evidence from the computer that the computer took a picture and you could see his hands.
00:48:53
Speaker
Okay. Okay. So I think that's what it is. I could be wrong when we get to the episode if I wrote something. So it's not him. It's not a picture that shows him with one of the victims. No. That was the fear.
00:49:05
Speaker
Right? Like when prosecutors said they wanted this, like that was like, why? Okay. So the defense also put forth a motion to suppress statements and a request for an evidentiary hearing. ah Basically, they wanted the things that Josh said at the time of the raid at the lot to be not used the ah flippant comment about like, why are you here? Does someone don get download child porn?
00:49:31
Speaker
ah And he also asked if he should call an attorney at the time. they So defense wanted those thrown out. Okay, because he did not have an attorney present at that time. Right. And they also said he wasn't Mirandized.
00:49:45
Speaker
But Josh wasn't arrested at the time. He wasn't in custody during the raid. So like during a raid, I don't think that. Right. Like the right for an attorney doesn't matter until you're arrested. What comes out your mouth and until you're. And he chose to talk to the feds like he went up to them and made that stupid comment on his own. but So that was thrown out. Oh, it was thrown out.
00:50:06
Speaker
Oh, yeah. They were like, they were like, no, he he wasn't arrested. You don't get Mirandized for like talking to an investigator. Oh, I thought you made this statement was certain. No, no, no. Like the motion. Oh, no, no, no, no. hu There was a motion to dismiss um based on the government. This is defense. Again, the government's failure to preserve potentially exculpatory evidence, exculpatory evidence is evidence to defend its innocence.
00:50:36
Speaker
And they said that the government failed to provide or preserve some of the evidence on the computer and phone, which again, just like isn't true. like They just were like, okay, I bet there was a picture you deleted. The grasslands draws here. Yeah. Okay, so this is the part about the hands and the feet. There was a motion to suppress those photographs the prosecution wanted of Josh's hands and feet that were taken while in custody.
00:50:59
Speaker
Um, basically body parts can help identify abusers and pictures and videos when faces aren't shown. And it seems like part of this was like trying to determine that Josh hadn't created the content he was viewing. Oh, good Lord. Yeah. Oh my gosh. But nothing has been proved that there's, he's not heading.
00:51:18
Speaker
No, like it wasn't. And so like throwing that out silly like the defense not wanting that seems silly to me. But it's it's I don't know. It's a thing that's used all the time. It's like fingerprints. You don't throw out fingerprints. Like it's it's an identifier that is common when someone is booked in prison. They take photographs of any identifying yeah features.
00:51:42
Speaker
So the defense even like goes as far as to say law enforcement was like tapping into the webcam to like try. And they're just trying anything. Right. Right. And the environment in the nation at that time was probably perfect for the distrust of law enforcement. Yeah.
00:52:01
Speaker
So this last motion is very funny because the Duggars are huge Donald Trump fans. So there is a motion to dismiss the entire charge and the trial because of violations of the appointments clause.
00:52:19
Speaker
The defense says that at the time that I wrote this, it was former president Donald Trump. My notes are not correct, but it's what I am, whatever. He unlawfully appointed the Homeland Security agents who carried out the investigations and they weren't legally Homeland Security agents. Is this gaslighting again? this is is there I mean, is there any, listen, any truth to this or even any logic behind this argument?
00:52:49
Speaker
I'm trying to think of the best way to say this, considering we do our best to keep politics out of here. I am not a fan of Donald Trump, but this is like, this is ridiculous. The Homeland Security agents were legally Homeland Security agents. I don't know. Sometimes they want it both ways. right That is true, to be fair, but this is, it's ridiculous. um And since then, one of Anna's big sticking points Is that Joe Biden?
00:53:22
Speaker
had some responsibility in Josh being in prison. And she was convinced similar to to Tiger King, Joe Exotic, convinced that Donald Trump would pardon them. Joe Exotic thought he would pardon him. Anna was convinced Trump will pardon Josh. well So when I say that there's some delusions and some strong statements of like blaming Joe Biden for her husband looking at child sex abuse material. like That's the kind of stuff that's like, okay, this gets hairy and not as black and white. Had a Donald Trump ever acknowledged or did yet he know anything about this family? He he didn't have any kind of action. I'm sure because he's a reality TV guy, he knew about them, but no, there's no connection. Nothing at a personal level at all. Right, right. No, nothing at all.
00:54:18
Speaker
Um, during, uh, COVID lockdowns, one of the Duggar boys mowed the lawn and he mowed Trump into the yard. Okay. So it's like, that so it's just a funny, like, it doesn't matter what they believe and they'll throw everything away. If it'll help, you know, it doesn't matter what we believe if we can save Josh, right? right So we'll throw the president under the bus who we all voted for.
00:54:49
Speaker
There's an up unsubstantiated rumor that Josh, the plea deal Josh was actually offered was only for six years and he turned it down. So it wasn't necessarily the, or was it the minimum of two, five years, but maybe with six years of probation or? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and he said, no, I can beat it. So what I want to close on is this statistic that will tell you all we need to know.
Conclusion on Federal Conviction Rates and Josh Duggar's Trial
00:55:19
Speaker
The feds have an above 90% conviction rate. They're not going to take someone to trial if they don't have enough evidence to ensure a conviction. This was all the arrogance and the entitlement of King Josh Duggar thinking he could beat all of this and he's better than all of this. And he he can't, he's not going to go down for anything. The the thing is his father and and presumably mother went along with this too. I'm all about supporting your children, but there is a point where, and even like you said, Jim Bob, I'm sure spent thousands and thousands on this defense. oh yeah I just think it, there's more, yeah, it's it's guilt on multiple layers. for Yeah. And it's like, I don't know if you're raised
00:56:12
Speaker
to think that you're going to take over some sort of like religious dynasty and you're the future of the family and you're the first boy and you you know, there still comes a point when you're an adult that you have to to make the choice to change your perspective or get therapy or do something.
00:56:31
Speaker
to fix that about yourself and if you don't make that choice then I don't feel super bad for him. It's like a superhero feeling a sense of protection and and in the same way I guess that maybe Josh feels like the protection of of of the Yeah. and Because he deserves it. He's entitled to it. Not because of anything he's done, but because he's the first boy in the family of 19 children. Gosh. Yep. That's where we'll leave off. Uh, next episode, we're going to get into the trial and yeah, we'll just talk about how all of that turned out. Um, and kind of where everybody is now ish kind of like 2024.
00:57:21
Speaker
Um, what we're seeing from the different kids and Jim, Bob and Michelle. And we talked a little bit about, you know, what Anna's doing right now, as far as we know, but, you know, we'll talk more about all of that. Yeah. I'm excited to hear about it. Well, thank you guys for joining us. Don't forget to go to our YouTube channel and check out what we're doing over there. Uh, it's fixate today, gray matters gray with an E cause we fancy. And even though we, we do focus on the Micah Miller, Micah Francis Miller case.
00:57:51
Speaker
And we, we are still on that topic. It just gets deeper and deeper and we find more and more interesting things, uh, laws and corruption. So even if you're not a fan and don't know the story real well, um, I think there's a lot that we have over there. We try to make it slightly educational. Yeah. And we're definitely going to branch out eventually, but we're stuck in this fixation. Yeah. When it's about fixations, you can't help it.
00:58:16
Speaker
Exactly, exactly. But the nice thing is a lot of the videos we're doing now are going to help us with future fixations because we've like kind of laid out laws and things like that. And and if I'm going to be honest, I'm like kind of fixated on that now. i I think I see the seeds of my ah the next fixation growing. For sure. Well, we will talk to you guys next week. Thanks for joining us. Bye.