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The Duggar Family and the IBLP, Part 7
57 Plays1 month ago
On the final episode of our series on the Duggars, we discuss the wild character letters sent to the court in an attempt to sway the judge's sentencing decision, and where we are now with the fam.
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Disclosures
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today, Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I'm here with my Aunt Joy. We are two neurodivergent ladies who obsess about various topics. Joy is autistic and I have ADHD and we are letting our hyperfixations
Duggar Family Hyperfixation
00:00:15
Speaker
fly.
00:00:15
Speaker
Today we are fixating on the Duggar family.
00:00:29
Speaker
Welcome back to this is the last episode on the Duggars and I promise it is and until shiny happy people part two comes out and we might talk more, but is there going to be Oh, yeah.
00:00:42
Speaker
Oh, wow. And I know some things that I'm not allowed. You know some things? I know some things and I'm not allowed to say the things because my friend who knows the things will get in trouble. Oh,
00:00:53
Speaker
But I want to so much. And yeah, so I do think we'll have to revisit once that comes out. We have too much to say. I swear we need to start putting out podcasts twice week.
00:01:05
Speaker
I know. Or even like, hop on, Mike. I'm mad about something. Oh, no. That's so cool. i love that when my I love that when my favorite political shows do that.
00:01:16
Speaker
Content creators yell at me about what they're mad about. Yeah, it's so fun. Once we get a following. Yeah, exactly. Right now it's just you and me. Yeah, exactly. You know, there's upwards of 50 people.
Sources on the Duggars
00:01:34
Speaker
So let's before we jump in, let's talk sources. ah used Shiny Happy People on Amazon Prime, Counting the Cost by Jill Duggar Dillard, the YouTube channel Fundy Fridays, the podcast Someplace Underneath, the Leaving Eden podcast, Time Suck, Digging Up the Duggars, Pretty Lies and Alibis and Behind the Bastards.
00:01:58
Speaker
The Duggarsnark subreddit. The websites Recovering Grace and Homeschoolers Anonymous. NBC News and
Josh Duggar's Sentencing
00:02:07
Speaker
Wikipedia. All right, so we are done with the trial. He's been sentenced, all the things.
00:02:13
Speaker
But we didn't talk about part of the sentencing was that the judge was given character letters from several people espousing why Josh shouldn't be imprisoned for long okay so several people sent letters none of josh's adult siblings well none of josh's siblings but i don't think the younger ones would have been allowed but none of the adult siblings participated which i think is and to just looking back he ended up getting kind of mid-range on the like he was max at 20 years and he ended up getting about 12 years okay so
00:02:52
Speaker
So yeah, mid-range. um I think if he serves the full sentence, he'd be released 2034. It'll probably be more like 2032, which now feels a lot closer than it did when he was in trial.
00:03:07
Speaker
Well, it'll be interesting to read through these and then see if we think that they actually... were effective in, in his sentencing. Yeah. So I think what I'll do, cause there are like, these are out there and obviously we are not a visual medium, so you can't see the letters, but I think what I'll do is I will post them on our social media, probably just on our Facebook. I don't, ah maybe I'll try Instagram too. I'm not, I'm not great at this.
00:03:32
Speaker
I'm no computer expert. Like Josh. up But I'll definitely put them on our Facebook um so you can see the letters. Like some of there's it's just interesting. There's a lot of like handwritten ones and stuff like that.
00:03:46
Speaker
um And Michelle Duggar dots her eyes with hearts. No, I would never have thought so. So speaking of Michelle, let's start with her letter. Michelle did not attend a single
Michelle Duggar's Support for Josh
00:03:57
Speaker
minute of the trial.
00:03:59
Speaker
I don't ah necessarily blame her. And I hope it was her choice and not Jim Bob telling her she can't. Who was Jim Bob there?
00:04:10
Speaker
Jim Bob was there every day. it was multiple, like different kind of groups of the Duggar adult children were there. Okay. Joanna Duggar, who was the youngest victim when he was a teenager, um was there a couple times, but her husband was there frequently. And a lot of times her husband would sit apart from the family.
00:04:28
Speaker
Interesting. Okay. Okay. janna duggar who's the oldest girl i think was there one day anna's sister and husband i think were there so just like different yeah groups of them and only the adult children obviously but depending on the day like no michelle yep so michelle wrote her letter to the judge her letter included just explaining all of the friends and family who love and support josh now and will in the future She writes about how he's very compassionate towards others, helpful to neighbors and friends.
00:05:06
Speaker
He is wise with finances.
Michelle's Awareness and Autonomy
00:05:09
Speaker
He's been ah a good provider for the family, and he's generous with others in need. Okay. I don't know how wise spending $5,000 on Ashley Madison was, but... No, no, not quite seeing that. So her example is that he had been giving financial assistance to a widow who was a friend of theirs for years.
00:05:27
Speaker
Great. Yeah. It's a little suspect to me. I believe it, given like their church. But I don't. It doesn't make him not guilty, like not deserving prison.
00:05:41
Speaker
um She calls him loving and patient that he loves spending quality time with his family. There is no mention of the crimes he was convicted of. I mean, that's got to be pretty hard for a mother to even.
00:05:55
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. You know, and but it kind of bears the question, and like, does she even know what's going on completely? Like, Jim Bob could be keeping information little... I mean, she could be very much putting her head in the sand.
00:06:12
Speaker
For sure. She could be choosing. I mean, at a minimum, I'm sure that's what... if you want to get a little deeper, is the knowledge of these crimes inappropriate for Michelle and their religion? Yeah. It's, you know, she likely doesn't discuss the case with her adult children because that would be deep that would be inappropriate.
00:06:29
Speaker
But talking about anything like this is not acceptable in the IBLP at all. ah Oh, OK. So she I mean, it's I think it's entirely likely. And this was kind of a point believing Eden podcast brought up was like she probably doesn't know a lot of the details and is trusting her husband to like.
00:06:50
Speaker
think about that you deal with that yeah yeah and she certainly probably doesn't know like the details of the images i don't know she she could even not know it's children right yeah yeah i'm it is weird i ah guess when you're somebody who well fixates on this stuff and is on social media um you kind of take it for granted that everyone knows the things you know or yeah but i don't yeah but i she It wouldn't be hard to keep things from her. Not to keep things from her necessarily, but for her never to understand the details of what. Yeah.
00:07:27
Speaker
Well, and they they still have minor children at the house. So they still very much limit internet. They yeah don't have a TV. Like there are ways that she might not know everything. Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:40
Speaker
And unless, you know, people outside of her family are texting her like, do you know what your son did? Yeah. Do you think it's healthier for her not to know or to know? I think it keeps her um under Jim Bob's more.
00:07:55
Speaker
It's like he has this information and it's like an infantilization almost. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's... But at the same time, like, I know...
00:08:06
Speaker
you know, I've been told that there is information about my father's death that my husband will never tell me. And that's to protect me. And it's stuff I don't need to know. Right. Yeah. That's why I was kind of wondering. So I don't, I don't know. I think, um but that was my choice is the difference that we don't know that she's making the choice necessarily or being encouraged or, or even coerced to just like blindly trust that.
00:08:34
Speaker
Like I was given the choice that, and I'm like, i'm going to trust you.
00:08:39
Speaker
Well, tragedies all around. Yeah. So this is another, another point leaving Eden made that just like gutted me, but it's like, imagine being one of the daughters who was molested.
00:08:54
Speaker
And this is the letter your mother wrote. It's just, it's gotta be awful. I mean, i don't know how those kids, it's how do you, juggle that like defending the kids who are harmed but you do in some way want i mean it is your son you do love him i mean not defending her or them but yeah it's a it's just a rough and then on top of it there's a lot of rules and what you can and can't do as we see like in just this culture that they're in and then you're also somewhat of a public figure right yeah
00:09:30
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, my opinion would be the best thing to do is acknowledge the pain that your family's in and your daughters have experienced. But there's just she's never mentioned it yeah
Anna Duggar's Letter and Financial Dependency
00:09:43
Speaker
So.
00:09:44
Speaker
All right. So our next letter is from Anna. At the time, they had been married for 13 years. So she write makes sure to let us know that. She writes that Josh is diligent in work.
00:09:58
Speaker
We'll go back to that word in a second. ah He is kind to homeless people. And his car lot customers have become friends. is that Maybe that's why he's been spending so much time there.
00:10:10
Speaker
That's it. Working so hard. So the word diligent, and this is this is a lot from the Digging Up the Duggars podcast. they They mentioned this. ah Diligence is like a huge word in the IBLP.
00:10:24
Speaker
And it's just like, and and looking back on like watching the Duggars, they would be like, it's so, yeah every this person's diligent. He's diligent in his work. He's diligent in... in reading the Bible. And it's just like a weird word that always comes up.
00:10:40
Speaker
And I don't super know why. I think, and I don't know. I don't know if it's as simple as like, it sounds smart, but if you say it over and over, it just sounds like one of those words that, I don't know, we talked about the use of language with the Ruby and Jodi case.
00:10:56
Speaker
It's like, that's one of those uses of language. Bill Gothard used the word diligent a lot. Yeah. Good point. So just a weird, yeah. Anna in her letter wrote that Josh is an engaged father and his primary focus is being a father and husband. Okay.
00:11:13
Speaker
She wrote that not only are herself and her children financially dependent on Josh, but this widow and her family are financially dependent on Josh as well.
00:11:24
Speaker
So he was like full on supporting this person? It seems like it, or they're blowing it up in these letters. Okay. Okay. I don't know. And in her letter, she quotes Ronald Reagan saying, quote, there is no limit to the amount of good you can do if you don't care who gets the credit.
00:11:44
Speaker
And Josh embodies this quote. OK. She asked for consideration in the sentencing to reunite her family. She acknowledged the seriousness of these crimes and.
00:11:56
Speaker
ah she adds that everybody is made in the image of God and deserves chances. And even, I don't know, convicted felons are in the image of God, um which begs the question.
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah. But what about the children who are in these materials? They are also in the image of God. Yeah. yeah yeah Oh, so I briefly want to go back to the word diligent. I forgot that I actually wrote this in my notes. was just going off my head.
00:12:25
Speaker
And my notes are much more clear. When I said Bill Gothard used that word frequently, it's actually one of the IBLP character traits. So they have all these character traits that will make you the best godly person. Okay. It's basically you work hard at the jobs you're given without complaints.
00:12:43
Speaker
And because of because of his diligence, he won't reoffend. His job is not reoffending and he's very diligent and he will work hard at it.
00:12:53
Speaker
Although to be fair, haven't we gone through this once with him or twice with him before? Uh-huh. They slightly changed so he can say, okay, well, that's different. Yeah.
00:13:04
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Basically, like he won't reoffend, which makes him an asset to society. And it's like, it's basically repeating what his family has said about him and to him for years. You're like, he's the little king man who, when he makes a mistake, he will diligently work to fix it.
00:13:25
Speaker
So doesn't mean he's not going to make another one again, no. ah Also, I
Perceptions of Josh Duggar
00:13:30
Speaker
don't know. He, he just needs, I mean, and he's getting it, but like he needed to get in trouble. He needed consequences.
00:13:38
Speaker
Yes. And when your consequences are, you get to, you have to go to this camp at age 14 and get your head shaved and then go back to doing exactly what you're doing and being told that you're the best and you're wonderful and you're perfect.
00:13:51
Speaker
Not going to work. All right. So that was Anna's letter. um Felt kind of bad for her in it, but also it's she acknowledged the crimes, but not the victims, which I wonder if she even sees them as victims.
00:14:08
Speaker
I think she sees herself as the victim and her husband is the victim, but it's the thing. I mean, we just, maybe she just can't actually face that. Yeah. As a protective mechanism. Yeah, maybe.
00:14:19
Speaker
Maybe. So our next letter is a woman named Nicole Burress. She's one of the Duggars' neighbors. She says that Josh is always willing to step in when there's a need.
00:14:33
Speaker
She said that um recently her husband learned that Josh was financially helping a widow. What is going on? Okay, I'm sorry. Something's going on with this widow. It's like they leeched on to the one good thing he did or don't I don't know. There's something.
00:14:49
Speaker
Something's going on there. Nicole says that he helps people financially with purchasing a car. And my argument would be owning a used car lot is not helping people financially to purchase a car. It is facilitating the purchase of a car.
00:15:03
Speaker
no She goes on to say that ah during COVID, um when she was pregnant and starting to have contractions, he bravely went and brought her medication.
00:15:15
Speaker
What a guy. What a guy. She says you can learn a lot about a man by how his children behave. Says they're very respectful, honoring and delightful.
00:15:26
Speaker
They say he's a very involved father and the kids are very sad without him. Which, yeah, they're victims. They're his victims. Even if it's not, you know, the level that everybody's afraid it is, they're victims of his choices.
00:15:41
Speaker
No, I mean, I am. I am very sad. for Yeah. They say while he's while he's in jail, he has been spreading the gospel while he's even there. He's she says that he has impacted even the hardened criminals he's housed with. Well, good. Then maybe he should stay there and keep working on it.
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah, there you go. And she asks the judge to consider Josh's character when deciding his punishment.
00:16:08
Speaker
I'm not huge say sure that you really want that, but okay. No, I don't think you mean that. The next letter is from her husband, and Timothy A. Burress.
00:16:18
Speaker
He's a Duggar neighbor and a financial advisor. Don't know why we needed that in the letter, but we got it. He writes that he met the family at a men's Bible study, or he met Josh rather, and he didn't know he was Venus.
00:16:31
Speaker
Well, maybe because he's not, but okay. Yes. um He calls Josh a people person and he was politically active, quote, often in socially unpopular ways.
00:16:44
Speaker
Is that a compliment? Yeah. Yep. Quote, he followed his Christian convictions and that made him wildly disliked in certain circles. Still, he remained true to what he believed.
00:16:56
Speaker
It's the whole martyr thing. Yeah. That like, they all, they don't think I'm right about all of these horrible things that I lobby for. And they're mean to me. to be But yes, um he says that the whole Duggar family were very gracious through the height of their fame and that the Duggars do have enemies, but it's due to the Duggars conservative values and political views that they will not shy away from.
00:17:22
Speaker
Not their crimes. All right. Well, no, just him. Nope. It's because Michelle made a robocall about trans people. That's why everybody hates the target on them.
00:17:34
Speaker
say that Josh didn't choose this life and that the paparazzi stalked them and people threatened them. Well, they're right in that Josh didn't choose the life from when he was a young man.
00:17:44
Speaker
Sure. Yes. But the other... He still chose his activities that he done as an adult. Absolutely. And none of the other Duggar siblings are in federal prison.
00:17:55
Speaker
He emphasized that Josh has past sins, but through confessing his own sins, he's been minister and a leader to others to also yeah confess their sins.
00:18:08
Speaker
So he's been absolved? I mean, is he considered absolved of his past sins since he confessed? assume so. But I don't know. In terms of Josh's politics, again, he isn't evil, but the other people around him are.
00:18:24
Speaker
okay I'm not understanding that, really. It's still like... His value conservative, it's it's it's all like, people are after me because of our beliefs and that stuff. It's still like emphasizing like, yeah, when he was in politics, people didn't agree with him. Don't agree, but.
00:18:41
Speaker
Like, okay. But he stands firm on his values. He writes that Josh told him, quote, I didn't do what they said I did. Well, he if he said it Quote, he freely admitted to his past sins and yet gently maintained his innocence regarding his predicament.
00:18:59
Speaker
Meaning he said, yeah, I molested my sisters and I cheated on my wife. But during the predicament of being ah federally accused of looking at child sex abuse material, he gently maintained his innocence. didn't he admit to those things after people found out?
00:19:15
Speaker
He still hasn't. Oh, no, I'm sorry to the past thing. So. Oh, yeah, the past thing. that they come up and and Yes, it was after he got in trouble. He says he focused on helping others through the trial, not worrying about himself.
00:19:29
Speaker
That must be that widow again. Exactly. So he ends his letter saying, yes, punish people who harm children. Absolutely.
Critique of Support Letters
00:19:37
Speaker
But be aware that many people want to destroy the Duggar family because they stand in the way of their sinful lifestyles.
00:19:45
Speaker
So like is that that's basically saying, well, it's saying multiple things, but in his mind, he does not believe he is the person who harmed to those children. Correct. Somebody else harmed them.
00:19:57
Speaker
Yes. And that's where I think Anna is too. Those kids aren't victims because Josh didn't do it. They're not victims of him. Right. Yep. He says, quote, examine the enemies who may seek to profit from a man's downfall. Right.
00:20:12
Speaker
And that ah Josh's life work should match up with his with the accusations. And if they don't, then they're wrong. i was like, yeah I'm not sure I get supporting the widow, helping people finance all the good things.
00:20:27
Speaker
They like cross out. Well, it's even like if they don't, if these horrible accusations, but look at his good life. That means the accusations can't possibly be true. This is one of my favorite letters because the quote, examine the enemies who may seek to profit from man's downfall. I think that's us now.
00:20:47
Speaker
ah
00:20:49
Speaker
i yeah
00:20:54
Speaker
We don't, we don't get much profit, ah but we are seeking to.
00:21:01
Speaker
oh that is funny ah so yeah go subscribe to our youtube channel
00:21:08
Speaker
oh goodness uh the next letter is from a family friend named beverly clink set clink scales that's hard to say that's a hard name yeah um this one's a shorter it's just like josh is a hard worker he's a nice person and josh and ann are a good parents It was like she was asked in a long time. I feel like that's exactly right. She was asked and she's like, okay.
00:21:33
Speaker
The next letter is from Michael Keller, who is Anna's father. he calls Josh, quote, gentle, kind, and polite and says that Josh strives to keep peace.
00:21:45
Speaker
To me, that says, you know, like the Mormon keeps sweet. Yeah, yeah, To me, that says keeping the peace is like sweeping it under the rug and shutting up about it. Yep. So again, kind a short, I'm sure Anna asked him to do it.
00:21:59
Speaker
Notice he he doesn't say trustworthy. No. And, but Anna's parents have supported him. Anna has some family, ah couple of brothers, I think who have left.
00:22:11
Speaker
the church and have been like, you need to, they've been kind of people who like, you need to get out. You can come to like, come stay with me. I know you hate me because I left the church, but you're not safe. Like your kids are not safe.
00:22:24
Speaker
So there are some of her family who are very vocal. um Her parents have been supporters. So the next ah letter is from a gentleman named Rafael Perez. Okay.
00:22:36
Speaker
And he met the Duggars at an annual family conference in Big Sandy, Texas. Now, what they don't tell you is that this big annual conference on the show, on the Duggars show, was they would call it a homeschool conference. Like they would go to this.
00:22:50
Speaker
It's basically a huge annual IBLP gathering. And a lot of times they'll say things on the show like, we met this family at a homeschool conference, but it's this like annual huge event in the IBLP.
00:23:04
Speaker
He met them, I guess, years ago kind of thing, like when jo but before Josh was in this predicament. Yeah. in his predicament. Yeah, probably. like and And this conference is where Josh and Anna met.
00:23:17
Speaker
The Duggars and the Keller family met at this huge school. So like a lot of, yeah, you made they meet a lot of like-minded people there, let's say. He attended um Alert Academy, which we talked about a little bit, I think, in our first or second episode, which is like a military style structure organization to make men And so that gives him, know, he went to Alert Academy, so he knows a man.
00:23:45
Speaker
He calls Josh positive, encouraging, and respectful. And he said that he always made his family feel part of his family. can see that. Says he has a, quote, attentive spirit, which feels like a not great thing to say. I'm not sure. I'll take that.
00:24:03
Speaker
who was imprisoned for looking at CSAM. not Not sure. It's not how he meant it. and think he meant like he pays attention, but yikes. He goes on to say that Josh's oldest son really admires his father.
00:24:20
Speaker
Oh God. Don't think he should said that either. Well, no mention of the oldest daughter who is actually the oldest. The daughter was born first. It is the son, the first son.
00:24:32
Speaker
That gets mentioned. Next, we have a letter from LeCount Reber. This is the um family who took Josh in during the trial.
00:24:43
Speaker
This is the husband. and I said I couldn't remember his name, but I knew it was weird. It's LeCount. Wow. He describes patience and kindness with...
00:24:55
Speaker
ah Josh's wife and children. He was very conscientious about the rules of the home and the rules that were put down by the court. Yeah, because he didn't want to be in jail.
00:25:06
Speaker
Exactly. He wanted to stay in a house. LeCount says he had a good attitude through the trial and he was a very helpful house guest. God, just don't say that.
00:25:19
Speaker
So our next is David Waller. This is Anna's brother-in-law who's married to Anna's sister, Priscilla. This is the brother of like the, one of the first people to testify at the trial that got all confusing.
00:25:33
Speaker
David Waller writes that he and Josh worked together on a project to build a deck for David's in-laws. Wow, that's cool. Yeah.
00:25:44
Speaker
Right? I know. And they purchased them new appliances and a car and they decorated and organized a laundry room. And David also mentions the financial support of the widow.
00:25:59
Speaker
He said he was around for an instant, an instance where one of Josh's kids were misbehaving and he was very patient with his. Oh, wow. Yes. yeah He is raising his kids up, reading the Bible and in the church.
00:26:14
Speaker
And then he says that Josh's sons prayed for the judge. Okay. but that Yep. He calls Josh, quote, God fearing. He says he confessed his mistakes publicly, quote, even when he knows he will be misunderstood, maligned, and attacked.
00:26:32
Speaker
However, quote, he has also chosen not to own something he claims he has not done. So that all that says is um he admitted things publicly that he did.
00:26:44
Speaker
And since he's saying he didn't do this, he didn't do it because he admitted everything else publicly. Oh, yeah. But okay cheating on your wife isn't going to send you to federal prison.
00:26:55
Speaker
No. And to I mean, this talk about the good de deeds he's done, doesn't that kind of take away from the fact that they were good deeds? I mean, yeah going back to Reagan's quote, right? No, I can't quote it, but essentially saying you don't seek attention, yeah gratitude for your good deeds. But that's all that's happening here. Exactly.
00:27:17
Speaker
Exactly. And it seems to me like supporting this widow and her family is a big part it. It's big deal. And I can't imagine he wouldn't want the recognition for that if everybody knows.
00:27:29
Speaker
Right. So the final letter. is from Samuel Waller, who is another one of David Waller's brothers. This is another short one. Josh lent Samuel a motor home for a 12,000 mile ministry trip.
00:27:44
Speaker
He is very generous with giving cars and opening his home to people. And ah at Samuel's wedding, Josh helped with the kids. Let
00:27:58
Speaker
me leave that one out.
00:28:02
Speaker
So those were, I just, they were fun.
00:28:06
Speaker
Horribly misguided and from people who are um wrong and confused and misled. But gosh, some of those were just, I don't even know.
00:28:19
Speaker
You know, I mean, I'm kind of the, so many of them were talked about being a good provider and like the financial aspects of it. So I don't that says something about their, their, they' church and what is yeah it's focused on or or if there's nothing else else they could say, good.
00:28:36
Speaker
Well, I think it's for sure the gender roles. Like the highest calling a man has in that church is protecting is is following God. It's the umbrella of protection. He is under God's protection. He's under God's umbrella, but everybody else is under his.
00:28:49
Speaker
And that means, you know, the man's calling is to provide. And so he's doing the biggest thing as a husband he can do, which is provide.
00:29:00
Speaker
Yeah. No talk of like how, and I know it's not about Anna in these letters specifically, it's like his character, but like, don't know. seems like she's given up quite a bit to allow him to be the provider. Yeah. I mean, a female in this predicament would, um,
00:29:19
Speaker
would not be receiving those. I guess in the within, they probably wouldn't be working and being the sole provider, but. Right. Yep. So next they had a ah victim impact statement.
Victim's Parent Impact Statement
00:29:31
Speaker
So the victim's impact statement was read by the parent of one of the children who was exploited to make one of the images Josh downloaded. Oh my gosh. I, wow. I didn't.
00:29:44
Speaker
Yep. I just didn't even realize, cause I was going to say actually, when you said that, oh well you know how do you How would you get a statement from... Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I mean, like that's just beyond heartbreaking. And I think for all of the people who said he didn't hurt anybody, yeah this is what they needed to hear.
00:30:05
Speaker
i yeah The parents said that their child is a real person, a real victim, and is re-victimized any time this image is downloaded or viewed. Yeah. And despite what some people believe it is not a victimless crime.
00:30:19
Speaker
That is just, that is just sick. it's Yeah. Yep. And it is a great reminder that, you know, we talk about, we're talking about some of these people and in our podcast and YouTube and, and we forget sometimes that they're actual people, but it's like, that's what everybody did.
00:30:37
Speaker
it goes both and it goes both ways, you know? i mean, there's, there's people who are accused of things and they don't, necessarily get to put out their full side story and and you do feel for them and then in this case it's a child who can't even speak for themselves and yeah i think for some reason when you talk about this um type of material it is easy material okay say that so when you talk about this type of material it is easy to separate the victim from the perpetrator because they are not physically the one
00:31:12
Speaker
Right. the Exactly. And Sherry Frankie talked a little bit, not to this extent, but talked about in her book a little bit. That's like, people can see these abusive things my mom did to me. And they might be scrubbed from YouTube, but like people can watch them again.
00:31:27
Speaker
And it's, yeah it's just, yeah. And I talked, we're going to do, I just finished up like the research for a video on image based sexual abuse, which is the term that should be used instead of revenge porn. Cause it's all, it's a thing of like revenge makes it sound like the person in the image did something bad and deserves it.
00:31:49
Speaker
Right. Right. It's the same. Like once it's on the internet, that person is being re-victimized every time it's viewed. Every time it's accessed. Yep. So, and you can't make it go away. No, there's nothing you can do.
Family Responses to Sentencing
00:32:03
Speaker
Once it's there, it's there. I want to talk about some public responses. Cause there's a couple of people that like, We didn't hear from in the actual trial, but we're very vocal.
00:32:14
Speaker
So the first is cousin Amy. Cousin Amy Duggar. She was on the show quite a bit. She's like the she's not in the church. She wears her jeans. She wears her crazy clothes. She's outspoken. She's a wild child.
00:32:27
Speaker
The Digging Up the Duggars podcast calls her famy because any type of camera's on, she wants to be in front of it. It's funny. However, she was consistently taking a stand against Josh and she and Anna were very close.
00:32:43
Speaker
Oh. So she, yeah. um After the sentencing, she tweeted, quote, IBLP is a cult. Her mother is Jim Bob's sister. Okay. And she said, she said that her mother wasn't told everything about Josh's crimes when he was a teenager. Like she wouldn't have been allowed around him.
00:33:02
Speaker
I totally believe that. Yeah, absolutely. She posted at one point, she posted an open letter to Anna on Instagram. And I remember when she posted this because, of course, I followed her.
00:33:13
Speaker
She called out Anna's father for supporting Josh and then also told her there is no shame in divorcing Josh to protect her children. She says the ones who are telling you to stay are the ones who are willing to sacrifice you and your kids to protect Josh's secrets.
00:33:29
Speaker
Then she also said like she recognizes the like posting it publicly and then calling out like the public, the publicity of it all is like kind of a double standard, but she says she's posting publicly. So Anna's kids will someday know that someone was standing up for them.
00:33:46
Speaker
Yeah. can see that. And, uh, she went on to like encourage other IBLP or former IBLP women to post things publicly. like And, um, I mentioned this earlier, but one of Anna's brothers did something very similar back in 2015, posted something very similar, even before it got to what we now know but even just after the molestation and the cheating scandals he was like you can leave so another person that we'd mentioned briefly very early on in the trial was caleb williams he worked he he worked at the correct yep he worked uh he took to twitter three days before the sentencing which is a big deal because his grandfather is prominent in the iblp and his mother and michelle are very good friends and
00:34:33
Speaker
Okay. So he is an iffy guy, but he's been, i think he's, we'll get So Caleb impregnated a minor when he was a legal adult.
00:34:46
Speaker
We talked about him committed, doing some crime and then being sent to live with the Duggars. So he served some jail time and he went to live with the Duggars so Josh could fix him. And he had been rumored to be courting Jana Duggar, who's the youngest daughter.
00:35:01
Speaker
um He said that didn't happen. okay So Leaving Eden podcast went into kind of what happened. Is is the implication that something inappropriate happened? Yes.
00:35:12
Speaker
Yeah. Because he, I mean. While he was staying with them? No, no. This is why he went to jail. Why like impregnating a minor. Sadie on Leaving Eden speculated that this was, ah they were courting.
00:35:28
Speaker
They were setting it up for a wedding like they were dating in IBLP terms. and And it's not they had sex when he was an adult and she was a minor, but they were together.
00:35:40
Speaker
And probably the father, her father found out and said it was, you know. it was not consensual i mean i i also recognize that there is like that line of i don't know her age i don't know his age it was like 18 and 17 that's different than like 24 and 16 but i think it was closer to that but it was like maybe he was 19 maybe she was like 16 still not great but yeah yeah
00:36:11
Speaker
And it sounds like he's like trying to redeem himself a bit from that. Like he recognizes that it was bad and wants to separate him. Yeah. Yeah. So when I think when in court, you know, they're talking about him as a pedophile that could have downloaded these images. It was like, hold on.
00:36:33
Speaker
These two things don't correlate. Gosh. Yeah. I could. It's a little too close to home. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's I think he can I think he's can and probably has like just is a regular person and recognizes bad things he's done in his past. And yeah, trying to just move on.
00:36:56
Speaker
But understands how that opens him up a bit to being accused of other things. Yeah. Which I think they and Josh is. Yeah. um attorneys I definitely took advantage of. Yeah. He said basically like they should have gotten married when she turned 16.
00:37:11
Speaker
He deflected a lot of guilt to her parents like kind of making himself the victim too which is like yeah he called for and this was like he's still like he was super like defending himself um but he said like laws should be changed to protect minor girls but it wouldn't have changed his situation like he still had sex with someone before she was 16 or 18. Yeah.
00:37:32
Speaker
There's a lot of this, like a lot of things should be done, but. but Right, exactly. Throughout this whole saga, really. i mean, there's several times where that's come up. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah absolutely.
00:37:44
Speaker
He directly called out to Anna saying he was praying for her, but because of this past he's had, she's convinced he did it. Like she's absolutely 100% Caleb Williams is the person who did this. And Josh is like taking the fall for him.
00:38:02
Speaker
And he said in like his, in when he was tweeting, like, your husband hasn't taken accountability. Like, it's not me. He was, he tweeted that he, in this kind of diatribe, he was kind of going off. He was tweeting that the sex registry should be amended and people like him should be taken off of it and not be on it with violent deviant offenders.
00:38:26
Speaker
Well, and that's, that is something we found out in South Carolina is that they can be appeal to have be taken off of it. is that I'm assuming that's state by state? I'm guessing so.
00:38:38
Speaker
I'm not saying it should or shouldn't, but um but I do think in some places ah after certain number years, yeah at least in South Carolina. And like, You have to proactively. Sure. Yeah. yeah And i'm by no means defending Caleb Williams. I just want that very, very clear.
00:38:54
Speaker
and But the crime he committed was very like circumstance based and the crimes Josh committed can be recreated.
00:39:06
Speaker
If he were given the opportunity, he would again view this material. yeah Caleb Williams has to work really hard to prove that he will not recreate the crime.
00:39:18
Speaker
And he said for the rest of his life, he will be known in the media as the guy Josh Duggar tried to frame in his trial. It's like, yeah, you're kind of not wrong. All right. So to wrap up this series, I want to talk about Anna some more and what we think her future will look like.
Anna Duggar's Future and Pressures
00:39:36
Speaker
Yeah. We're both like, there's no black and white answer for Anna. Right. Like, no, I think she is trapped. I think she is victim, but I also think she is in deep denial and making choices that could harm her children.
00:39:51
Speaker
Can you tell that? How old are the kids range right now? Ooh, the last pregnancy was announced before the raid. So 2019. Okay. Okay. okay ah She was a teenager, I think is the oldest, like early teens, maybe. And Anna doesn't work right outside the home.
00:40:08
Speaker
Anna, Anna doesn't work. I don't know what anything is now. There's rumors that she's like started a dog breeding. Okay. The church doesn't allows women to work, right? i mean, it doesn't right prohibit women from working.
00:40:23
Speaker
Well, or do they they strongly discourage it and will find ways to say, like, you're sinful. Like, they basically say women can be midwives or teach children, no adults.
00:40:37
Speaker
And if you're going to teacher, why don't you just be a homeschool anyway? Did Anna go to college? don't No. Nope. Nope. I don't even know if she has a GED.
00:40:48
Speaker
No. He has a GED, at least. I don't know if she has GED. She basically left her parents' house when she got married. So there's this whole narrative of like... abuse apologetics I don't know what else to call it but it's like the abuser made the victim mightier and stronger in spirit it's like overcoming pain has made you a better person okay and it just sucks and I think that's where Anna is like this hardship is going to make me a better wife and mother mean it's in some ways you have to sort of make a justification and your mind yeah right otherwise how would you keep on living with you you know
00:41:28
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. i agree. So for the, for, and this again, it's kind of confusing, but Bill Gothard like cared deeply about age and birth order.
00:41:40
Speaker
So Josh being the oldest son of this family was huge for the IBLP that they, the Duggars had a boy first.
00:41:51
Speaker
And by the time they got their show, it was like, he was old enough to like show he was so smart and gifted and, Good with computers. Right. Great with computers. So this son going to prison is the worst possible outcome for Bill Gothard specifically.
00:42:06
Speaker
It would be less emotionally devastating if it was a different son, not the oldest. And now, publicly and outside of prison, Anna's responsible for the oldest son's soul and how he's going to how he's going to be after prison.
00:42:25
Speaker
So she has to stay the humble, submissive, dedicated wife. And if she doesn't, Josh's soul's in danger. The oldest son can't go to prison and get a divorce.
00:42:37
Speaker
So she's still responsible for it. Yep. She's got to cook. She's got a clean to clean, take care of the kids. Exactly. you And be responsible for Josh's soul. And breed dogs. and So in Jill's book, she talks a lot about how Jim Bob controlled the family through his own beliefs, kind of. Like, a lot of her siblings, when Jim Bob said Jill was sinning, were like, yep, Jill's sinning. We should all reach out to her and tell her she needs to listen to her dad.
00:43:08
Speaker
And it's like, for sure, this is what's happening with Anna. so yeah, yeah. she's But ah it under i think she's a controlled sibling now. Yeah. She and I think it's easier for her. Like she I think her believing that Caleb Williams is guilty and Josh is innocent means that there are other people in the family who believe the same thing because that's what Jim Bob says.
00:43:29
Speaker
Jim Bob says believe. I don't like Jim Bob. No, he's bad guy. I don't like him. You got to read Jill's book. I did. you did. I forgot. Yeah. I don't know. I just don't like him. I don't know. Something.
00:43:42
Speaker
I mean. Obviously, he's bad guy, but there's something even beyond that. There's something extra slimy about him. Yeah. I don't know. Isn't stealing money like a sin? don't know. I feel like he's got a few.
00:43:53
Speaker
Yeah. A few banged. Yeah. Sins in there. So, and this is like, this is the rub with Anna. Like she's, regardless of all of this, regardless of her being controlled or being put in this unwinnable situation that she's responsible for her husband's soul, she's still making the choice to stay and her kids aren't safe.
00:44:14
Speaker
With this kind of stuff, it builds up it like he won't come out of prison like I don't know I it's the time he's out the kids won't be minors no he'll still have minor children add that that okay that the youngest will be a teenager I think there will still be minor children in the house and people keep offering her help that she's refusing to take and I think in one of the episodes we talked about like she directly blamed Joe Biden for
00:44:46
Speaker
for everything happening with josh obviously and i i could be making this up and i'm so sorry but i thought when trump took office again she asked that josh be one of the people that he pardoned oh wow and yeah i don't know he didn't get lumped in with the insurrectionists nor was he famous enough to warrant it Right. Like, what benefit would Josh Duggar have to Trump? Like, Trump only does things that will benefit him.
00:45:19
Speaker
But, Josh, the Duggar family will not benefit him in any way. It'll make more people mad. So, do you think about Anna? I mean, i feel like she's just stuck. I mean, I guess I am somebody who thinks...
00:45:34
Speaker
financially a lot. And I mean, I think for sure, like, how would I support my kids? um Just, and I know you said that a lot of people have reached out to her.
00:45:45
Speaker
just think she's just overwhelmed and can't think beyond just the practicality, you know, that yeah yeah Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
00:45:56
Speaker
Yes. how would it like she Like, honestly, I don't think she can get too far beyond just food and and shelter, really, they just basic needs of the kids.
00:46:07
Speaker
I think that's where her mind is. and And it's hard to get beyond that. Yeah. In this situation, it's just almost too much to take. yeah and And that's why a lot of women who are in abusive marriages don't leave because they're like, what do i do? what do i And that's kind of the culture the IBLP has created for women in a lot of ways.
00:46:30
Speaker
It was one of the first things when I, well, when I had a, well, I tell any girl, especially my daughter, like no matter what, you just, you have a way to be able to support yourself and your kids.
00:46:41
Speaker
Yeah. You don't have to work, but you have to know you can. Yeah. So that always gives you a your own confidence and your own place to stand. gives you more stability within.
00:46:54
Speaker
Makes your marriage better, honestly, if you know you can take care of yourself. Yeah. I mentioned Tia Leving's book, I think in one of the episodes, um it's called a well-trained wife. And she was in this religion.
00:47:07
Speaker
um She escaped literally, barely escaped while she and her kids fled. She saw her husband driving the other way, having gotten his gun back to the house.
00:47:18
Speaker
So like she barely made it out, but in her book, she, she's obviously a great writer. So she started a blog when she was, you know, homeschooling the kids and doing all the things.
00:47:29
Speaker
And when the blog started making money and getting traction was when, um her husband was like, the elders have come to speak to me about your blog.
00:47:40
Speaker
Wow. And ah yeah, they, it's almost like they want women trapped. And I think it's beyond that. I mean, I think it's, i mean, I think it's not just, yeah it's perversive, I guess, throughout our society, but you know, one person at a time, I mean, things, things slowly
Public Perception of Christianity
00:47:57
Speaker
evolve. And I do think as a, we are, you know, yeah I guess.
00:48:02
Speaker
Two steps forward, one step back, I guess. We're moving. Right. And it makes me it makes me really sad as somebody who, like, I do go to church and I am a believer and all those things. It's like, gosh, like, people shouldn't be treated this way and that for the like in the name of God.
00:48:19
Speaker
And, you you know, we and I'm not terribly religious. Yeah. And then it is hard then, see, you hear these things and then it does, it it puts a negative...
00:48:31
Speaker
like cloud all over Christianity in general. I hate to say it, but it does. Yeah. Yeah. yeah No, you're not wrong. Cause there are some bad people who are saying they do things in the name of God.
00:48:44
Speaker
And, and there have been all throughout human history. So yes, exactly.
Conclusion and Future Topics
00:48:49
Speaker
Well, that was dark. right So on that note, What's next? Oh, I don't even know yet.
00:48:56
Speaker
I'm thinking of maybe doing a historic one I haven't even talked to you about. um It'll be short um because it's like 1600s old. So there's not a lot to know figure out.
00:49:07
Speaker
But it's it's something I accidentally, every time I hear it again, get re-obsessed. Okay. And... I'll have to see if can get obsessed with it between now and then. Yes.
00:49:19
Speaker
But the good news is like, you're not going to be able to learn much more than is actually out there. So it'll be a brief fixation. Okay. All right. And we need some follow. i mean, we still have to add on a few to, to our past topics right now. Yeah. Yeah. We, we want to talk Sherry Frankie's book.
00:49:35
Speaker
We want to, there's that new documentary coming out in a few days about the Frankie's. Yeah. So we kind have a lot to Yeah. I do want to go back to talk about that. So yeah, that's about it.
00:49:48
Speaker
Thanks for anyone who listened. It was a, and thank you Nikki for presenting this so well. It's organized. Of course. And sharing your information with me. I very likely could have done this without notes, except for the trial. I don't know the trial inside out. I thought you were going to say could have it No.
00:50:03
Speaker
I didn't know anything. all but I like am embarrassed about how much I know about the doggers.
00:50:10
Speaker
Isn't that like, that's what this is all about is that part of you that like is embarrassed that you're even that person who knows this stuff. And then, but you know, you are. Yeah, exactly. And you know what? We're going to talk about it.
00:50:23
Speaker
Got to embrace it and make it a podcast. All right. Well, thank you guys for joining us. Go check out the YouTube channel, Fixate Today Gray Matters. And we'll talk again soon. All right. Bye-bye.
00:50:44
Speaker
you