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The Duggar Family and the IBLP, Part 1
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Welcome to our new series! We are talking about the Duggar family. On today's episode, we discuss the Institute of Basic Life Principles, Bill Gothard, and the Quiverfull movement. This episode lays the groundwork for why the Duggars got famous in the first place, and how they ended up where they are now.
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
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Transcript
Introduction: Hosts and Focus
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I'm here with my aunt Joy. We are two neurodivergent ladies who obsess about various topics. Joy is autistic and I have ADHD and we are letting our hyperfixations fly. Today we are fixating on the Duggar family.
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome back, everybody. I'm so excited for this series. This one is all me. Yeah, I mean, this was not my thing at all. Like I was not like hyper fixated on it. And then I saw Nicki sent me some notes. And then in the short time, I was doing a little bit more research.
00:00:48
Speaker
then I could see myself like diving into it. Yeah. This is so I watched the Duggars from day one of the show. like I was so in when I tell you my sources and you hear how many podcasts that I listened to about it. like This is something that if someone came up to me and said, hey, we need somebody to go give a five to 10 minute speech on whatever you can. You
Research Approach and Sources
00:01:12
Speaker
have three minutes to prepare yourself. I'd be like, all right, they're going to listen to bite me talk about the Duggars.
00:01:18
Speaker
and And the other thing about this is we come at it so differently, and that's yeah yeah becoming a pattern, I think, with our podcast. is that we um and And I don't know if it's our different neurodivergencies or if it's just our different personalities. But yeah, like because I so like get the conspiracy theory like way.
00:01:38
Speaker
deep into, okay, this is some underlying, you know, this covering up something much ah much more nefarious. um And I'm like, what's here is nefarious enough. Let's bring them down. Bring the men down. It's kind of our thing. Yep. I'm noticing that in like the YouTube content we're doing also is mine is like, protect all the women. This is a government conspiracy meant to
00:02:09
Speaker
And you know what? It's both. exactly yeah yeah I think that's what we're learning more than anything is that there are multiple layers to all this. Yeah, absolutely. Let's get into it. I'm going to start with our sources. For my research, I used the documentary on Amazon Prime, Shiny Happy People, the book Counting the Cost by Jill Duggar Dillard.
00:02:32
Speaker
the YouTube channel Fundie Fridays, the Dugger Snark subreddit, the websites RecoveringGrace and Homeschoolers Anonymous, NBC News, Wikipedia, and these are the podcasts. Someplace Underneath, the Leaving Eden podcast, Time Suck, Dating Up the Duggers, Pretty Lies and Alibis, and Behind the Bastards. All of them have done really great series on the Duggars and the Leaving Eden podcast, specifically there when we get to Josh Duggars trial, they did incredible job covering everything. So primarily when we get to those episodes, that's all Leaving Eden.
00:03:17
Speaker
and And what I found find is um you know in listening to all the other podcasts, not that um each one is a completely researched source, but you do start seeing the trends and it helps you, since everybody comes out in a different way, ah you' you're able to start piecing together a lot more.
00:03:36
Speaker
Yeah, that' that's what I've really. Yeah, definitely. um And I also like really want to shout out the digging up the Duggers podcast. It's a rewatch podcast. They like order the DVDs on eBay because you can't find it anymore. wow It's not streaming anywhere. The show is like scrubbed, um but they like snark on an episode of the show and then um their husband and wife podcast hosts. They're very cute. And she then does. They call it the dig.
00:04:05
Speaker
on a subject that's like related to the culture. So they've done like okay they've done ah they've like the character traits in the IBLP and they'll do like discussion of those. So they she just does this like really amazing deep dive on it and a related topic. So the episodes are super long, but they're so great.
00:04:25
Speaker
that's ah yeah That's awesome. and and and And I can see, we're seeing the patterns over and over with these individual topics that we were interested in, not because we thought of them as interrelated and having the same underlying themes. And, you know, I didn't realize that we would get as much overlap and and that they would build upon themselves, stuff actually. I thought we were taking topic by topic, but definitely see a pattern.
00:04:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I agree, which makes sense when we fixate on specific things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. All right. So
The Duggar Family Background
00:05:01
Speaker
let's get started. We're going to start with talking about the Duggar family, giving some quick introductions. We're not going to go too deep yet. um The heads of the Duggar family are Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar. And I should say Jim Bob Duggar is the head of the family. Obviously we're, you know, patriarchy. They have 19 children together, nine daughters and 10 sons.
00:05:26
Speaker
All of the kids' names start with the letter J. They live in a small town in Arkansas. Jim Bob and Michelle met in the early 80s. Jim Bob had spoken to Michelle about converting to his religion. And that was how they kind of, friendships even too strong of a word. That's how they interacted for a while was just him talking about the religion. They got married in 1984 after Michelle graduated high school. She was 17.
00:05:54
Speaker
Hey, um was did Michelle come from a fundamentalist family or a religious family? Do you know? She did not at all. um during the During the show, she talks about, you know she used to mow the lawn wearing a bikini top. and all She was a cheerleader and okay yeah so very much not raised. I don't know if they had, you know, went to church or anything like that, but certainly not fundamentalist to the level she is. She just was drawn to hot old Jim Bob. Exactly. So we oh when they got married, she was 17 and he was 19.
00:06:39
Speaker
To be fair, we do come from a family, Nikki and I, where a lot of people have married young. I mean, I married young as well. Yeah, and have stayed very happily. We have actually very minimal divorce in our families. Yeah, that is true. But I was well out of high school. My husband was not waiting for me to graduate high school to marry me. Although your grandparents, my parents were, was exactly what we should. Yeah. yep ah So neither Jim Bob or Michelle attended college.
00:07:10
Speaker
And the way they supported themselves was Jim Bob had various businesses. Um, he was a real estate agent. He sold, used cars, ended up having a couple of used car lots and a towing business.
00:07:24
Speaker
I do believe to this day, he still manages properties as a landlord. Um, I'm not sure yeah on the show, a bunch of the kids, when they get married, he like gives them a house and it's one of his properties that they live in until they decide to move out or he decides to rent to someone else or anything like that.
00:07:43
Speaker
So throughout the show, I, he did work an outside job also. I mean, you don't see it. Okay. Like he's not, he's not like putting on a suit and going to work or anything. He's managing properties and he takes the kids to like teach them how to do handy work. When like something breaks at a property, you see a lot of that on the show. Okay. And the car part is like the. you So what you see of the used car lot is when Josh Duggar, the oldest gets married.
00:08:11
Speaker
He, they, they then start showing Josh is running the used car lot and the show, the show sets it up. Like it's his business. I think at the time it was Jim Bob's business that he kind of. Took over. Yeah. Yeah. He took over. I don't, I don't, I think it was still in his name. I'm pretty sure it eventually went into Josh's name, but I'm not positive about that. Yeah.
00:08:35
Speaker
I think it's probably the government's name at this point. Oh, yeah. So this is a weird sentence to say about people we don't know, but it's important to Jim Bob and Michelle used birth control once they were married until they decided they were ready to have their first child.
00:08:52
Speaker
Joshua was born in 1988. After he was born, they went back to using birth control and Michelle got pregnant while they were on birth control. They miscarried this pregnancy. They still they named their baby Caleb that they miscarried. And they have since gone on to blame birth control for the miscarriage, saying they sinned in not allowing God to decide how many children they were going to have.
00:09:20
Speaker
and taking God's plan into their own hands by using um by using something that would prevent pregnancy. So that was their punishment, was a miscarriage.
00:09:31
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm going to interject here because of my pharmacist background and ah yeah anyone who who knows much about ah birth control or medications. No, birth control could have, that's actually a legitimate argument that it could have caused a miscarriage. And that would have been if she was pregnant and then still taking it, didn't realize she was pregnant.
00:09:53
Speaker
Um, then yeah, the hormones in there will often, not always, they can instigate a miscarriage. Now the allowing God to choose how many children, I mean, I guess you could, and that's a per you know personal matter, but there is, I just do want to say that there is a.
00:10:13
Speaker
There's like a precedent for it. Yeah, there's, yeah, there is a physiological reason that that could happen. And I, and I do know there've been, not to say people shouldn't use it. It's when it's, when you take the birth control and are pregnant, it's not from taking it and then stopping. It's when you accidentally take it law and without knowing you're pregnant yet. And I do know that it can be more difficult to conceive at all the longer you've been on birth control. I think I heard that somewhere.
00:10:40
Speaker
They always say that I'm not sure. i that that's that's that's kind of i'm I'm not positive that that that has. a lot of significance. But yeah, just ah caveat. We are a pro birth control, pro birth control podcast, please take birth control. Please prevent or don't if it's your thing i say please prevent pregnancy if you don't want to be pregnant. Because actually, ah we have a family, um I come from a family of six girls and
00:11:11
Speaker
um the first five were each born one year apart. And then there was a gap of about 11 years and guess when the birth control pill came out? Oh my goodness. So after the miscarriage, they decided that they were going to stop using birth control altogether and follow the ideology of letting God decide how big their family would be. Two years after Josh's birth, twins Janna and John David were born in 1990. And over the next 21 and a half years, there were 17 more births, approximately one birth every 15 months.
00:11:54
Speaker
Oh, yikes. So let's start talking about the group, the religious group.
Institute of Basic Life Principles (IBLP)
00:12:03
Speaker
Some say cult, some say church, some, you know, it's got some titles, uh, the IBLP and its leader, Bill Gothard. And, and right here, I'm going to, I get a little confused here about how the church and this group function together because this, the IBLP, it's not a religion and they don't have their own worship centers. Is that correct? ah So it's yes and no. My understanding is the IBLP came from goes hand in hand, I should say, with a homeschooling curriculum. And it started off as almost like, like self-help type of thing, but not self-help.
00:12:51
Speaker
Uh, God help. And so some do meet in a church building and they are under the IBLP umbrella, which that phrase matters also. So it's, yeah, it's always confused me a little bit as well, but it is like the IBLP is, I believe a recognized religion. The Institute of Basic Life Principles is a religion. Like you could get married.
00:13:21
Speaker
and or do they indoctrinate or? Okay. Yeah, yeah. So it's basically they recognize themselves of it as a non-denominational Christian fundamentalist group. But a lot of their members go to different denominational churches. that that That's a feeling I got was that there was a um a bit of a competing ideology sometimes between what the church ah you know at least in the Duggers, they went to a couple of different churches and that didn't the church teachings did not always line up with the IBLT teachings. IBLP. thing sorry With the IBLP teachings. Did you get yeah yeah did you get yeah okay so that? Yeah. That is a little bit confusing to try to try to
00:14:14
Speaker
The family actually started, they called it home church. Okay. And they started leading um or offering church services in the community at their home once they built their huge house. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's, you're not wrong. It evolved. Yeah. It evolved. Okay. Yeah. um The creator of the IBLP is Bill Gothard. He started it in 1961.
00:14:41
Speaker
And the purpose of the IBLP is to provide instructions on succeeding in life through biblical principles. And he did, he did have a true education. i We've been working on the Micah Miller case and with her father, but with the JP's father, Wayne Miller, and he's keep starting up the schools and then gives out these like quote unquote degrees. But it does, but Bill Gothard did have a, a true degree from, is it Wheaton College? I mean, that's a real accredited university. okay Right. I was just going to say, um so let's his so we got a BA in biblical studies from Wheaton in 57, an MA in Christian education in 1961, which I think was also Wheaton. And then in 2004, he got a PhD in biblical studies from Louisiana Baptist University.
00:15:39
Speaker
That one, I would question the accreditation. yeah And if it's like, it was 2004, he was 70, right? Yeah. He was 70. I imagine it was awarded. yeah they Yeah. So this is, um, you know, this is interesting. Also Bill never married and he never had children. that is So the man who is telling you how to be a husband and and how to raise children, never got married, and never had his own children.
00:16:09
Speaker
so interesting, because we've come across that with others. And I i never know how to take it. Yeah. In ah Gothard's world, there are some political connections from his family, including Mike Huckabee, Sarah Palin, Sonny Perdue, and Rick Perry. In 1961, Gothard started a group called Campus Teams.
00:16:30
Speaker
He changed the name to Institute of Basic Youth Conflicts in 1974 and the IBLP in 1989. So it seems that his initial focus was teaching, you know, young adults, older teenagers how to live biblically according to his perspective of what living biblically is. Although I find that name change i'm very interesting or the basic youth of conflicts.
00:17:01
Speaker
Yep. Foreshadowing? I don't know. This seems like a strange... To me, it sounds like um it sounds almost like a troubled teen center. You know what I mean? like it's market It sounds to me like he could have marketed it as to parents, like I'll help your kids figure out the conflicts with the parents conflicts in their life. That's my thought. Yeah, but then I thought I think by the late 80s, he was like, Oh, I can reach families, not just, you know, young adults, teenagers, right? I can make this a family thing.
00:17:41
Speaker
just I thought an interesting name. readyy yeah He started promoting basic youth conflict seminars. And by the 70s, attendance to the seminars were up to 20,000 people. And by 1979, he was able to purchase a jet. They all get the their jets.
00:18:00
Speaker
You know, nothing screams Christian, like having your own private job. You know, you've made it when you've got the job. Oh, goodness. um In 2006, it was reported that the IBLP earned 63 million dollars. Now, in the last few years, they have gotten very private about sharing any financial information publicly, including taxes, which you can see it's that I'm sure it's a 501c. And so I mean, you can see how they can kind of get, go under the radar with their earnings. And i think yeah and there's they're a religious institution, so they don't have to pay taxes. In the year 2008, the show 17 Kids and Counting brings the IBLP to national prominence. All of a sudden, millions of homes are seeing a family who live under the IBLP principles.
00:18:57
Speaker
Between 2009 and 2012, the IBLP began steadily losing money and followers. There were controversies within the organization that started to come to light. um People were calling out, you know, financial stuff. There was misconduct going on, both sexual and not sexual. And some of the Deggers controversies started kind of boiling up.
00:19:22
Speaker
that, you know, the Duggars are supposed to make the IBLP look aspirational. But if they're not perfect, then people are going to start maybe not paying as much or tithing as much. But I think when you say controversies within the organization, it won't be, i I mean, the Duggars definitely ah played a role in it, but it sounds to me like it went deeper. They had other. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Whatever other issues with the um the organization.
00:19:51
Speaker
And this is where I'm going to pop and cut in on a on their financial struggles. And actually in 2018, which was the last year for which tax returns are available, their revenue was back up. um So it had been declining steadily.
00:20:11
Speaker
um was back up to $8.5 million dollars after a leap in contributions and an unidentified 6.6 million of quote unquote other revenue.
00:20:26
Speaker
ah So yeah, so income from services languished to 1.2 million. um But yes, yeah, this and so where did the 6.6 million come from?
00:20:40
Speaker
yeah I don't know. I have a guess. Do you? um We'll get more into it, but... Okay. like Well, I mean, i don't I don't know that I even cover it in my notes, but um with the success of the show, Jim Bob was being set up to be the new leader of the group after Bill Gothard resigned.
00:21:00
Speaker
and I would imagine at that time they had the money to give to the organization, and that would be a great way to get him in as the leader of the group if his dang son didn't screw it up for him. Well, and is it by then, we haven't gotten to this, but he was becoming a little bit more ah politically active. Well, he was reentering the political donations have. Yeah, possibly. Yeah. OK.
00:21:30
Speaker
I think there's something else going on, but look into that. So in 2014, Bill Gothard resigns after sexual misconduct allegations come out. Shocking. He never admitted to anything beyond, quote, a violation of trust. You got to love the wording because it covers everything and it's not a lie. Exactly.
00:21:54
Speaker
However, the IBLP itself investigated Gothard and said he was acting inappropriately, which blows my mind. They needed to get him out. They wanted to get him out. Somebody wanted to take over leadership because otherwise they would have backed him up like crazy. Like look at the Mormon church. If, if an allegation comes out, the Mormon church does not back down. They will protect their, their, their person. They'll, if the person's the perpetrator.
00:22:23
Speaker
Yeah. Catholic church too, right? Yeah. Yeah. So they're like, they wanted, they were done with him. Yeah. Cause you know, this stuff's been going on for decades. Oh yeah. its Yeah. but Something new at this point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it had, I mean, I don't believe it had anything to do with actually caring that he had sexual misconduct allegations. It's other things for sure.
00:22:47
Speaker
Yeah. Somebody else wanted power and probably. There's the window. yeah So let's talk the core tenets of the IBLP. In hindsight, of course, we can see all of this on the Duggars shows, but we didn't know about any of it until, you know, we got more into, you know, the, the show was established, making a ton of money. And then people started talking, especially people who have left the IBLP.
00:23:15
Speaker
talking about what it is and how that the Duggars were part of this group. They've never fully confirmed that they are part of the IBLP, which is interesting. yeah So core tenets, first and foremost is patriarchy. Women are below men and men lead in all things. There is, um and I'll put this on our social media, but there is an image um in some of their work in ah one of the booklets, that's the umbrella of authority. And it's this image of a really big umbrella at the top, which is God covering the family. Then the man underneath God has another umbrella that's protecting the wife and the children. Then the wife has a smaller umbrella that's just over the children. So the umbrella of authority
00:24:08
Speaker
is basically saying to be protected from the devil and sin and all those things, you have to have absolute obedience to the person above you in that umbrella of authority.
00:24:21
Speaker
So that means kids have absolute obedience to their mothers, then their fathers, then to God. Wives have absolute obedience to their husbands and then God. And the men only answer to God. And any wavering from that obedience is it considered a sin.
00:24:40
Speaker
I also find again, I don't mean to be hurt. I mean back to the other topics we've covered, but the authority, this idea of authority and even it keeps coming up over and over again.
00:24:54
Speaker
i mean in in your daily life and then my daily life. ah ah you know not that much it's It's a word used, but it's just over and over again as a tenant of these lifestyles. Yeah. And I think it's important when talking about any groups like this to see who has the quote authority and who is saying that they should have the authority. So, you know, 99 times out of 100, the men are saying the men have authority. You know what I mean? Like whoever's dictating that just so happens to be the one that has it. Weird. Yeah. It is so strange. So also included in this umbrella of authority is the tenant that women are the protectors of male sin. So lust.
00:25:43
Speaker
This is huge. This is this kills me. This is insane. Yeah. But this is the. um You know, the culture of men are completely uncontrollable and it is the woman's job to. Well, on the one hand, a married woman, it's her job to satiate her husband no matter what. And if she doesn't and he strays from the marriage, it's her fault. Good God. Also, if you know.
00:26:12
Speaker
A woman is wearing the wrong thing and she is assaulted. That's her fault because she wasn't protecting, as the Dougers say, countenance of the men. She wasn't, you know, it's her job to do that. So women are required to never wear pants.
00:26:30
Speaker
Um, they're always in dresses. If you watch the show, they're in these super cute denim long skirts, obviously nothing. Uh, above the knee, but the Duggars wore like floor length skirts. Now most of them wear pants and shorts, the adult, the adult Duggar, uh, women. yeah Um, and Michelle has even been seen in leggings with a skirt over the top. I'm not going to judge on this one because I wear a lot of long skirts, but not for the same reasons.
00:27:01
Speaker
Right. Right over the legs. They're not looking so good. But ah yeah again, we see that same church of Latter-day Saints. You see a lot of those same yeah themes. Yeah. Yeah. The women are encouraged to have very long hair. This, you know, they say there's a Bible verse about the hair being like the crown of of a woman. I probably got that horribly wrong. um But it's because Bill Gothard liked his ladies to have long hair. Let's be real.
00:27:30
Speaker
He liked them blonde too as I hear. Uh-huh. Just basically the women had a really prohibitive dress code. There is another booklet that like, it shows a bunch of sketches of women wearing different kinds of clothes. And it's like, what's the eye trap in this picture? Eye trap is the word. Um, but even the men are rarely seen in shorts. There are a couple episodes of the show where they're like doing races, they're running and like the boys are in full jeans, running like 5K or something. It is funny in these groups how much ah outward appearance, ah way of dressing, way of keeping one's hair, all that becomes such a focus. And I think it's it's a way of bringing them together and differentiate them.
00:28:17
Speaker
from the the rest of I think that and I also think it's um you know it's so strict it's a way of keeping especially the women from thinking much bigger because they have to be focused on this one thing so there's not a lot of time especially because the women in this organization are raised to be wives and mothers and encouraged to have as many children as possible it's a lot easier to be worried about your hair than to be than to be wondering why you're worrying about your
Cultural Practices and Beliefs in IBLP
00:28:48
Speaker
hair. yeah yeah The IBLP encourages courtship so they don't date. Courtship is a period of time where a usually teenage boy and girl are getting to know each other. um They don't, as I said, they don't date. They use courtship as a way of being like, we're exploring if we could get married.
00:29:14
Speaker
generally parents, I mean men, let's be real again, they have to approve of partners before courtships or often there is like a, I don't want to go so far as to say like arranged marriage, but there will be families that are like, Hey, I have a teenage boy and you have a teenage girl. Should we set them up on a courtship and see what happens? Well, and during this courtship period, they, they still need a, they, they can't be alone. Yep. Correct. Um, and there can't be,
00:29:44
Speaker
any physical contact, bodily contact between. Right. Or is that loosening up a little bit more? I'm guessing it's loosening a tiny bit, but certainly not much. This is like a very important. I don't I can't see this changing too much, um but you see on the show when when somebody is in a courtship, they never go out on dates or anything. If they go out anywhere, they have a chaperone with them. And this could be a similar age sibling. It could be a parent.
00:30:12
Speaker
could be a trusted friend who's around the same age, ah but so a third person has to be there to just keep an eye on things. When they get and engaged, they are allowed to hold hands and do side hugs. But still, yeah, still not kissing, right? Like kissing still. Not kissing, still have a chaperone. When Josh and Anna get engaged on the show, the hand holding is like, it just gets to an uncomfortable point.
00:30:41
Speaker
They're like, it's just insane. Little Megan and Carrie. I mean, more and more uncomfortable because yeah I was gonna phrase this in a bad way, but Anna's never touched somebody of the other gender. And so it's like, she's doing what she thinks she should do. And she thinks she should like, it's always like double hand holding like, ah but the mic I hit the mic trying to demonstrate.
00:31:07
Speaker
but like hands stacked on top of each other all the time. Like trying to, there's one episode where they're trying, they like are out on a double date and they're holding hands. So one of them is eating with their right hand, but the other one has to eat with their left hand because they're holding hands. Oh, well, what i I find I know a little bit about like Indian arranged marriages and um,
00:31:29
Speaker
Yeah, and which are like, they're not really exactly truly arrangement marriages. They're the, you know, the parties have some um input that but even in those, it's not nearly as strict. I mean, I i think yeah, right. It's conservative and and what you do prior, but it's nearly as strict as, as what we're talking about here.
00:31:54
Speaker
And I feel like it's probably a lot more their own convictions and feelings about things rather than what they've been raised to know about the opposite sex. Do you know what I mean? It's probably like just for the sake of, you know, I want to hold off on kissing until we get married and it's their own kind of personal feelings rather than their parents, perhaps.
00:32:15
Speaker
But I do believe it in, I mean, it's not really necessarily called a courtship, but, and they go quickly, you know, it's it's a short period, but within it, I mean, they are usually at least, you know, weeks where they do get to spend some time one-on-one to make sure it's the right, and it's, um even now, ah my understanding is that they're like websites, you know what I mean? Like you're online dating, but in a very controlled environment, and obviously with parental consent, so.
00:32:46
Speaker
Right, right. Well, in this, um, so after the courtship phase, we talked a little bit about engagement. Usually engagements are so fast and mostly that is because the men are ready to have sex. I mean, the women can be too, but it's like, they just want to have sex. So they need to get married real fast. Well, we just kind of went through that, um, here. Yeah. Um, with a ah friend ah and, um,
00:33:13
Speaker
they They were Church of Latter-day Saints. And yeah, it was exactly, if I mean, knew each other for less than a month, got engaged, got married within the next month. And yes, basically, because they could not ah control their lust. And so, it and in fact,
00:33:35
Speaker
ah The young lady did not know what happens or how it happens on the merit so night like a That will come up! Yeah, actually no had to have a ah little heart-to-heart with width my daughter and friend to explain how it works.
00:33:54
Speaker
What one does what well keep that in mind because that'll come up again um So in marriage men have the God-given authority over women Women must stay submissive to men even when the men show any kind of shortcomings wives must grant husbands full access to their bodies for sex and Basically, meaning women are not allowed to say no. Wives are not allowed to say no. Women must not work, meaning they have no financial independence. Their role is wife and mother. They are at home. They're homeschooling. They're serving their husband. That is what they do. And and they're trapped. Yes, really. that's Yeah, they're trapped. how is
00:34:42
Speaker
an uneducated woman going to leave a marriage with several kids and make it an income for her yet herself. yeah um I didn't use this book for research because I had done my research before the book came out, but Tia Levinges wrote a book called, oh gosh, no, I can't remember. ah She's amazing. She escaped an abusive marriage. I don't think it was IBLP, but it was very similar.
00:35:07
Speaker
because I'm totally blanking on the book name of the book and I loved it. A well-trained wife, oh boy, is the name of the book. And it's it's her story of escaping a marriage that was abusive where her husband was, when I say shortcomings, i he was he was a bad guy, and um but she wasn't allowed to leave. Church leadership wouldn't help her escape. And so it's a great book. i didn't Like I said, I didn't use it for research because I've had this research done a long time.
00:35:36
Speaker
But if you're looking to hear a story of how this goes badly, Tia Leving's book tells you how women are trapped in this culture. Now, that's not to say that women should not be stay at home mothers if that is their choice. Sure. And and even be traditional mothers. with But I'm just a large proponent of always having a plan. No matter what you do, no matter who you are, you always know there is a way for you to make an income that can support you yeah and your children if anything happens. So it's a big that's a big, I'm a very big advocate. and And then I believe also it makes your marriage stronger by knowing you have two independent people. Yeah, yeah. iy and And I've heard of of women who are stuck in this who aren't allowed to have an income, finding little ways to kind of squirrel away money
00:36:35
Speaker
Um, so I'd say if you're in this, you know, they will go to the grocery store and do cash back to get like 20 bucks back. And if their husband's looking at the receipt and they're like, what'd you get $20 back for? You can say, like Oh, I stopped and got gas or something like that. But it's small enough that it's not noticeable from the bank account and it can be kind of tacked onto other purchases. Yeah. and So just, you know, that's horrifying. Also to know there are resources out there in the community too, that, um, but, but you're kept so sheltered usually in these Exactly. Intentionally for those. Exactly. Women should have what's called a meek spirit inwardly and how they present themselves to the world. However, outwardly look away that pleases their spouse, but also simultaneously not tempting anyone else. So there you go. This is a far and hard line to tell.
00:37:32
Speaker
I've never heard Michelle Duggar, if we can kind of put her voice in here talking, we will. though Anything that's worthwhile is hard work and definitely children are a lot of hard work. Her voice is, how would you explain it? Well, so Tia Levings talks about this too. She talks about the, oh, if it's like the fundamentalist baby voice or the the Christian baby voice.
00:38:01
Speaker
women and girls are taught to speak this way because it's the meekness thing and it inherently subjugates themselves because they're making themselves sound weaker and have to refer to the men who are strong, have their booming voice or protectors So it is a thing to be taught to speak this way. It is. It can grade on your nerves. And I yeah i noticed that even use that voice when disciplining their children, yeah but with words that convey to their children without raising their voices necessarily.
00:38:43
Speaker
Jill's book, I think i think it's it was Jill's book, could have been Ginger's book, which wasn't as helpful, so I didn't use it for research. But I think in Jill's book, she wrote, like her mom never raised her voice, but if she got a specific look in her eyes while she was talking to you, or if she lowered her voice even more, like whisper, then you were in trouble.
00:39:07
Speaker
So she can be saying the most loveliest things in the world and have crazy eyes and be whispering it and you're like, oh, I'm going to get beat. Not that I don't know that Michelle Duggar beat her children. Yeah, ah yeah. And we raised our kids a lot that same way, but not craziness. Like we tried very hard not to be yelling parents. and Yeah, like, but not. Yeah, us too.
00:39:29
Speaker
Right. And it wasn't like because it bothered like my loud voice bugged my husband. We decided not to be a yelling family. And we are. We're very loud. You're not quiet. We're not a quiet bunch. um Consumption of worldly media is deeply prohibited, which means movies, TV, music, Internet. um The Duggars didn't even watch their own show. Every now and then they were able to take out an old black and white TV and watch the Andy Griffith show.
00:39:58
Speaker
That's crazy. That is so North Korea to me. Uh huh. But it's because those things lead to exploring different ideas and beliefs. So it's framed as protecting your family from bad influences, which I get. I'm not going to let my, you know,
00:40:16
Speaker
nine-year-old watch a rated-R horror movie, right right but that's not what it is. it's It's limiting ideas, limiting thought. It's thought control. And it's even like limiting, it well, of course, I guess it is, any like worldly media, of course, any kind of ah news. I guess that goes without saying, but I think this is a tactic that is used to in multiple areas, control yeah yeah Not only in China and North Korea where we hear about, ah I think here in the United States, it might be a form it differently or might package that differently, but it's still the it's that calm concept of wherever the information you're getting from, if you believe it if if it's one place, you know that's all you know.
00:41:06
Speaker
That's all you believe. Yeah, exactly. So in terms of music, the Duggers all played instrument, but it's a stringed instrument or paint like I guess piano is technically a stringed instrument, but they play piano, they play violin, they play um cello. Harp. Harp. Yep. Harp. So, and this is because syncopated beat is not allowed. Okay. I'm not a music person.
00:41:33
Speaker
but what is go So, that so you know how you clap to the beat? If if it's like a four count, like one, two, yeah three, four, and white people generally clap on the two and the four.
00:41:45
Speaker
right ah It's that it's, it's a beat like that. It's, it's anything that you can clap a along to like that. So that would be negative because, um, because it's to it or.
00:42:04
Speaker
Well, there's that. Yes. There's no dancing. There's no dancing allowed, which could you have stopped your kids when they were toddlers from dancing? No, dancing would be ah a stretch for. Well, yes, that's fair. But like turning the car on and it beeps a couple of times to a beat. And like one of my kids would be dancing to that. Yeah.
00:42:29
Speaker
bed right yeah Yeah. And Bill Gothard, I think has said like, A drum beat like invites the devil into your world. It's got like that deep. That's just a strange one to me. I'm thinking, I'm thinking Bill Goddard is like, got no rhythm and can't dance at all. So, you know, how many of these things are like, because he's lacking that thing. And that's this case for any leader in a high control group. It's like, I don't like the color red. So none of you can wear red.
00:43:02
Speaker
Yeah. I just thought, I thought of this, the beat thing. Okay. So I'm sorry. I'm really dumb about music. So when you play a stringed instrument, do not have those. You it's basically saying they play. Your husband is into music a little bit. Yeah. He'll, he'll listen to this. Oh, he plays the bass though. And that's ah that is the sink. Oh yeah. Heck yeah. right like He's going to scream. He's going to come home from work when this is released and be like, I'm getting on the podcast and telling you what all this means. I will explain this.
00:43:31
Speaker
So basically that they can only play stringed instruments is that they only play classical music. Now, classical music, of course, has a beat because every all music has to have some sort of beat, like even if it's just a time signature that it's written in, it has to be conducted on a beat. It has to have it has to have that. But you wouldn't for classical music be able to clap along with that beat or OK, move your body to a beat in any way that would entice the men.
00:44:01
Speaker
side snark. They weren't great. ah No, you're not wrong. Some of these families come together and do a fairly good job. yeah This family didn't strike me as. Yep. yeah Josh sang at his and Anna's wedding, and it's one of the best moments on TV. like Is it hard to watch? It's so cringy.
00:44:28
Speaker
All right, back from school. All right. So let's move on to homeschooling. This is one of the biggest parts of the IBLP is homeschooling. The homeschool curriculum is called Advanced Training Institute. It is 54 pamphlets called wisdom booklets. These pamphlets are based on the Sermon on the Mount in the Bible. Families are not allowed to just do the homeschool curriculum, they have to complete two seminars before even being allowed to access it. Um, it's called the basic seminar and advanced seminar. I wonder what the fee is for those. That's what I was going to say. And then once you do them, the fee for the curriculum, because you know, there's a fee for the curriculum and you know that they went, when they revised the curriculum, you have to order the revised curriculum as well. And I'm going to ask when like ignorant.
00:45:23
Speaker
Christian question. Sure. What is the sermon on the Mount? It was trying to think of the best way. It it was, you know, a preaching like Jesus preached. It is like values for your life, not like the Ted commandments or anything, but it's, it's how to be not even a good Christian, but just like live a good life and be a good person.
00:45:47
Speaker
So in and of itself, that is not a bad teaching. You just maybe need some math and science. And it shouldn't i don't but it shouldn't be the core of your education is 54 pamphlets based on a biblical teaching. and So homeschooling is largely led by the mothers, mostly led by the mothers, um which I also think is a dichotomy of You're raising the men to be the leaders, but the mothers are doing the educating. Just yeah. Yeah. And I wonder if that, what kind of programs they use, and um, because there are a lot of like online teaching or school programs, so or if they truly are like the mom teaching. Well, I think they're, they use a lot of, cause on the show, they show that as well, they use a lot of, um, internet
00:46:41
Speaker
accessible stuff, but it has to be IBLP approved. Okay. Okay. So I do think this stuff is all online now too, and they can do it online, but they show in, in later seasons, the older kids doing their school online. And then Michelle's teaching the younger kids at like the kitchen table. Okay. I had a daughter who, um, homeschooled for one year because I'm a weird mother and she just asked, can I homeschool? and Basically online schooling and, um,
00:47:11
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, she got better using the computer, but beyond that, she's like, I didn't learn anything. It was one of those things she just wanted to get it, you know, she always wanted to try it. She tried it one year, not for her. But ah yeah, even in that atmosphere, she's like, Yeah, that was pretty much a year wasted of my academic life. So yeah, right. There you go. But she did it. um The curriculum is a largely a lot of the education is in reading the Bible.
00:47:42
Speaker
So a lot of the curriculum is just reading Bible passages, which like as a Christian, I don't think is bad, but I also had to, as you say, learn math and read other things. um Children are taught that sinning leads to bad consequences. This is a cornerstone.
00:48:02
Speaker
A book that a lot of people in the IBLP use is called to train up a child. It's by Michael and Debbie Pearl Fundie Fridays. The YouTube channel does great, great, um, research and stuff. and And their video about the pearls is great. Um, but basically let's just do it. Just talking about this book, it is basically physical discipline.
00:48:27
Speaker
It's it's a book that a lot of people call it a child abuse manual.
Controversies and Legal Issues
00:48:31
Speaker
um But it's it focuses on physical discipline to get a child to obey and stay obedient. um And they use something called blanket training. This is the only thing I'm really going to talk about from this book, because this is the only thing from this book we for sure know Michelle and Jim Bob used. So blanket training.
00:48:56
Speaker
is basically a parent, usually the mother, puts a blanket down on the floor. and when the baby or And then they put a toy just beyond the blanket, just on the outside of the blanket. When the baby tries to go for the toy, the parent kind of whaps them to teach them to stay on that square of blanket. And so Michelle in a blog post said they use blanket training. She got a ton of pushback and then the blog post went away.
00:49:27
Speaker
Now, in raising my kids and you know getting the advice that people always put out to you that you're not necessarily requesting, but I know I got a lot of you know people to...
00:49:41
Speaker
kids should have blanket time or, sure you know, just, it's important for them to spend time on the floor of the blanket, which I guess, I mean, I'm not sure how it, but I wonder, it's kind of a. Well, I mean, like developmentally kids have like babies have to learn those things, movement, spatial awareness, those things. This is to make them obedient. Yeah.
00:50:05
Speaker
I always thought the blanket was sort of just to make it not gross on the carpet or whatever. Well, then, yeah. Right. But so that is, yeah, they utilized blanket obedience that starts at such a young age. Yeah. And the indoctrination that is indoctrination through physical pain. So the last thing I want to talk about in the homeschool curriculum is alert, which is the air land emergency rescue team.
00:50:34
Speaker
This is a training program for young men. So teenagers, boys in their twenties, it is to create something called alert cadets. Um, which is fathers, it's also fathers and sons. It's almost doing like a retreat or something, but just like a bootcamp with the Bible also. Basically it's, it's the IBLP's way of, I'd say like kind of having a militia if they ever needed it, but it's framed as like Boy Scouts meets bootcamp.
00:51:10
Speaker
And it's weird, but it's yeah, a lot of them like ah but a couple of the Duggar boys fly planes, their pilot. Wow. And that kind of came out from this. It's not just for training, marching around formation. and No, no. Yeah. There's also an international alert academy and the um from the their website, it makes it sound like The purpose, especially of the international one, but also in the U S is if there's like a natural disaster or anything like that, the IBLP has people that they can send to help, which, which that's good. Like within, within the U S because I was like, yeah, but do they send people then internationally? Is that? Yeah. And, um, you a lot of the times they're not equipped to actually help in those situations. They've been taught to like, March around. It's just, yeah, it doesn't seem like the training. like
00:52:05
Speaker
that they would have. Right. Right. So they're just kind of there and converting not actually, I think that's the point is I physically saved you. So now let's let the Lord see of you. Yeah. And Bill Gothard save you more importantly. So let's move on to some of the allegations and scandals of the IBLP. First and foremost, this group is often called a cult.
00:52:31
Speaker
I'm going to take a little issue with that. And I'm not saying that this is not a cult, like not defending this group in any way. I just think a little soapbox here is that we've gotten to the point where we use the word cult and other words like.
00:52:47
Speaker
and narcissist and trigger. We use them so often that now we've they've kind of lost meaning altogether. And so i I just think that that's something where we have to be ah aware of, like now I'm a narcissist, which is a legitimate diagnosis for people. Now it's kind of synonymous with this negative personality type which are probably narcissists, but there are not narcissists out there who are not evil. They don't have evil intent or, you know, they're not necessarily bad people for that having that diagnosis. So anyways, that's just my little yeah side note on this. And yeah, cult kind of feels the same way to me sometimes. It's like, ah okay, where's the line and what what is a cult and what is not.
00:53:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think a safer term for sometimes if you're like, I'll say two things. A safer term is high control group. And we talked a little bit before we started recording, going back to Jodi Hildebrandt and Ruby Frankie, um they built a little high control group.
00:53:56
Speaker
And there were so many cult characteristics. Like I use that phrase a lot talking about Jodi, but I think they're accurate. um But I think some some especially high control religions can also be called use that phrase high control. Yeah. And I think I like that a little bit better personally. But I will say there is a model of kind of defining if a group is a cult is like an actual definition cult or like textbook example of a cult. And i I didn't do it. My actual research on it. I just have heard about it a lot. And then I did a quick Google because I forgot to write it down.
00:54:39
Speaker
But I've heard this gentleman quite a bit on podcasts and stuff. Stephen Hassan, he is a basically a cult expert. And by that, I mean like studies and researches. he was I believe he's an ex-cult member um and he devoted his life to kind of figuring out how cults work, how high control leaders get to power, and how people kind of get swept up by it. So he created this um tool called the byte model, B-I-T-E. And the byte model um looks at four factors.
00:55:18
Speaker
of control. And if a group is doing all four of these things, controlling these four things, they're a cult. So the four kind of factors are behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotion control. So if any group is covering all four of those bases um under this model, they are an actual cult. So it's like a DSM. Yeah. Yeah. Or cult.
00:55:48
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's the perfect way to describe it. All right, so let's we can move on. This this group I would put in the cult category, but I don't know. So now after having that conversation.
00:56:04
Speaker
so
00:56:06
Speaker
In terms of language like that, I tend to defer to ex-members or people who experienced the actual like group or person. That's my thought. i'm not good I'm not going to throw my two cents into something like I don't, I'm not a part of, but I totally understand like yeah yeah disagreeing. ah I think it could actually work. ah That's one of those things to even articulate, but like, by using that word, then all of a sudden the other side says, well, you use that word for everything. Right? Exactly. not It loses meaning. So yeah, i ah which it happens with a lot of things anyways, over time, you know, woke. Yeah, absolutely.
00:56:46
Speaker
because bothway So let's talk about Scandal in the 80s with Steve Gothard, who is Bill Gothard's brother. He resigned as the administrative director because he was having multiple affairs with his secretaries.
00:57:03
Speaker
um At this time, Bill was also asked to resign, but he chose not to. and the He kind of used the power struggle that came with this to put people who were loyal to him into positions of power at the IBLP and weed out the ones who were calling for his resignation and speaking up against him and his brother.
00:57:27
Speaker
yeah do Do we know anything more about the brother other than he sexually assaulted people? but Leaving Eden talks about him a lot and I didn't do too much of a deep dive. um But it was, yeah, it was just bad. Like he's using his power. Um, I think as we kind of already talked about in 2014, I think that the IBLP was making an example out of him because if they wanted him there, they would have protected him. And then trying to oust Bill Gothard at that time shows that they didn't care about the secretaries. He was assaulting. Yeah. So I was Steve pretty bold move on a Bill's part when he
00:58:08
Speaker
was asked or signed but said no. yeah But take the heat, like have a sacrificial lamb out there, whatever. And that was yeah maybe steep. Yeah, exactly. And then just so so much like the um Michael Miller case, then ah you know changing the new positions, really making the power structure, putting loyal people in that you have full control over so such a thing cannot happen. so Right, exactly.
00:58:37
Speaker
So in 2014, we already discussed it a little bit, but Bill Gothard resigns as president after allegations of sexual harassment and misconduct come out. Also, there's there are multiple allegations of failure to report accusations of child abuse. So if you can believe it, child abuse and child sexual abuse runs pretty rampant in a group like this. Wow. I wouldn't have thought of that.
00:59:04
Speaker
similar coverup that kind of the Catholic church did. And even the LDS church we now know has done these accusations rarely, if ever went to police or any sort of authority. And it was just to protect themselves. It's amazing. However, this coming up with the resignation of Bill Gothard, again, if they wanted to protect Bill Gothard they would have just the way they protected the child abusers. So in 2015 there was a civil lawsuit filed regarding sex abuse cover-ups. The suit is Gretchen Wilkinson versus the IBLP and Bill Gothard. Ultimately there were five female plaintiffs. Quote,
00:59:53
Speaker
seeking redress and damages for personal injuries based on the negligent and willful and wanton acts and omissions of the defendants with regard to sexual abuse and sexual harassment and similar allegations of malfeasance suffered by the plaintiffs. The women were seeking monetary damages and to bar the IBLP leaders from liquidating resources and assets.
01:00:20
Speaker
that comment about banning them from selling liquidating resources. Something to struck me about that. Yeah. And I'm not sure what struck me, but what are we talking about? Yeah, I thought it might. I don't know. I think that's something to continue. I feel like that has got more meaning than. Yeah. I mean, there's a reason why in a lawsuit, it specifically says they don't want them to sell their buildings, their property, their things like that. Whatever else. Right. Yeah. Right. that like I think that's something that we need to remember. And, um, as we go through this, I think, I think we'll find some deeper meaning to that. Yes. Um, so January, there were five more accusers by February, 2016, the total of amount of accusers were 16 women and two men in the lawsuit. I assume this was filed in the state of Arkansas.
01:01:16
Speaker
so I'm not actually sure. Okay. Or if it possibly was federal, if it had so many that, um, I, yeah, I'm not actually sure. and is Okay. Um, however, as happens with the statute of limitations, we were foiled again and the case was voluntarily dismissed in February, 2018 because the allegations had passed the statute of limitations. And I would like to put a little more research into that and look at the statute, live limitations, because that also feels to me like there might have been some payoff for threats or blackmail or something. Yeah, possibly. Most likely some kind of payoffs behind the scenes. but Because it doesn't say it was settled, so it wouldn't be public. um and for I can't imagine the IBLP settling anything because that takes some sort of culpability.
01:02:10
Speaker
and they don't want to admit that. um Yeah. And the word voluntarily dismissed. Yeah. but I mean, if it was beyond the step, I don't know. I just think there's something there. We'll put that on my list of, I just like to look in. I'll touch into that a little bit. Yeah. All right. So the last thing I want to talk about um in kind of setting the scene for getting into more of the Duggars is talking about the quiverful movement.
The Quiverful Movement
01:02:38
Speaker
Quiverful Movement is a theology that sees large families as a blessing from God. um And there is a Bible verse that they use frequently from the King James Version. Please note, they only use the King James Version. I'm not religious, so I have no idea.
01:02:56
Speaker
but goakland yeah
01:03:00
Speaker
It is the right version. It must mean something because of her voice, but it just means anytime that I use different Bible version, it's not the correct translation according to them. So ah it is Psalm 127 verses three and four, I'm sorry, three through five.
01:03:21
Speaker
Low children are a heritage of the Lord, and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man, so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them. They shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.
01:03:42
Speaker
So under the quiverful movement, birth control is not allowed. And even natural family planning is frowned upon. God gives you the number of children you're meant to have. And that's it. I find this so interesting because we see it in many religions. And I mean, I suppose it's just about growing the members of a particular sect. Is it about is it about getting political votes in the future? Is it about Just more tithing, more money. Yes to it all. Okay. I mean, really, yeah. And that weird quiverful, I don't know why that sounds weird. I don't like that term. Uh-huh. Well, to me, it gives me a bit of a military. It's like when you go to war, your children are your weapons that will do the fighting. Yeah, I can't put my finger on it, but it just gives me the heebie-jeebies.
01:04:43
Speaker
ah So the movement came about as a response to the development of modern birth control and sexual revolution of the 60s. As Americans, we always have to swing to one extreme right to the other and back again. And that's what we'd see here. And I on always thought that the birth control and the was more of a Catholic teaching. i didn' I didn't realize early on that it was from fundamental churches also. I always thought about it.
01:05:12
Speaker
Yeah, I'd almost say more so for fundamental churches because using birth control implies that you can have sex. Yeah. yeah And that implies outside of marriage. So, it you know, in 1977, a woman named Nancy Campbell begins writing pro-quiverful articles in her magazine, Above Rubies. She later publishes a book called Be Fruitful and Multiply.
01:05:42
Speaker
Um, her work glorifies stay at home moms, but not because they're stay at home moms because they have a lot of children. She says that the womb is a weapon against God's enemies and that women are creating warriors for God's army. More Christian. That's exactly what you said, yeah right? maybe Yeah. Well, more Christian warriors means more votes to turn the U S to into a truly Christian nation.
01:06:13
Speaker
But this is ah this is playing the long game. Yeah. Yeah. I think day one of this was playing the long game. Another woman named Mary Pride is another unofficial leader in the quiverful movement. Her book published in 1985 is called The Way Home, Beyond Feminism Back to Reality, which I will say coincidentally okay was published the same year as one of my favorite books, Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale.
01:06:45
Speaker
I love i me back to reality. I know, right? Well, and and so Atwood, this was actually and I didn't know this, but Handmaid's Tale was written as a response to these ideological movements. I can see that like Quiverfall. Yeah, like I knew it was, but I didn't know like she specifically was looking at this was one of the movements she was looking at when she wrote it. It's her warning of where these like religious high control trends could lead.
01:07:14
Speaker
ultimately damaging to women and girls, but also damaging to men who are toxic masculine leaders, but can't handle the power and become corrupted. Isn't that interesting? Just a thought, but um that although we're always trying to subjugate women, they do hold the highest power in the world. And that's the ability to procreate.
01:07:37
Speaker
Yep. Yep. So they have to, that has to be controlled. Yep. Yep. Interesting. So Mary Pride recounts her journey from feminism to happiness in this book. I have no comment. Laughter. Listen, said I am a real happy feminist. That's why.
01:08:00
Speaker
She converted to Christianity in 1977. In this conversion, she learned about biblical mandates of womanhood as wife and mother or traditional gender roles. um She lives in submission to her husband. ah My response is actually choosing my actual notes. I forgot about it. Actually, choosing to be a stay-at-home mother is an act of feminism, but whatever.
01:08:30
Speaker
Uh, Mary, Mary goes, I mean, she goes really far saying working outside the home is bad for women and bad for the family. I should just also say like, I was a stay at home mom and now I work part time outside of my home. And again, I'm a very happy feminist. That's where this becomes difficult because it's not to say that there's a problem with doing that, that, that staying at home in and of itself is a problem. It's about the choice. Yeah. I mean, I said it. Choosing to be a state home mother is an act of feminism. It's choice. It's choice. And again, off topic, but I do feel strongly about, we we need to get to the point where it's not one or the other.
01:09:16
Speaker
You know, and I was very fortunate where I was able to work part-time. I had a great career. I fully raised my kids and, you know, ah they never lacked for attention. In fact, I've gone back and asked, do you think like my work, you know, what they're like, no, it made you from being a weird mom. No offense. I ask my kids that too. But yeah, I just want to be clarify that it it doesn't mean that that's a bad thing. It's about the choice.
01:09:46
Speaker
Right. And I, but, but I do believe you should always have a plan. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, if you're married, it is making the choice to be a state home mother does involve your partner. And so it is that, you know, making the women, making the choice, but like for the marriage, making it together and raising the woman to the same status as the husband. Instead of the husband saying you're a state home mom, like that,
01:10:14
Speaker
yeah There's a lot of power issues that go in there yeah and have to be worked through and there's reason definitely room for corruption is the wrong word. But no, you're right. I think so. So Mary's favorite Bible verses were from Psalm 127. Basically, this is her interpretation is that sex must be at least potentially procreative.
01:10:43
Speaker
not deliberately unfruitful. So any type of sex that doesn't potentially lead in pregnancy or result in a pregnancy are sinful. So this includes masturbation, homosexual sex,
01:10:59
Speaker
and any heterosexual acts that aren't performed for the purpose of resulting in a pregnancy. Okay, something else that I've just always found weird. It does remind me of how you can take many biblical verses, readings, and interpret them the way that you want to.
01:11:20
Speaker
Yeah. Religion to religion or yes. Bible translation to Bible translation. Yeah, that whole King James thing. Yep. But yeah, you can, it mean when you have a book when you have a book that long, you can always find something to back your point if you want. Right. Whatever point you have. um So it was actually these these more conservative women like Mary Pride who started spreading this movement to their own churches. um And then pastors began preaching in favor of quiverful family structures. So by the late 80s and early 90s, there was more preaching and writing about this movement um within churches. Couples were instructed to not see the financial burden of a lot of children um with the trust that God will just take care of them.
01:12:12
Speaker
which I will say as a Christian, I do believe that God will always provide. That doesn't mean I don't work. That doesn't mean i I just, you know, I still have to be proactive in making sure that things are protected, but this is the complete swing the other way. Just you don't worry about how much it tastes how much money it is to raise 12 kids. god God will take care of you. Do you think at some point in some religions this thinking overwhelmed um the other moral teachings that were more traditional, just be kind, be good to your... Yes. It seems to me like a lot were taken away. A lot of those moral traditions were yeah taken away or overwhelmed by this fascination or fixation with, yeah first of all, all these sexual matters and growing families. and
01:13:10
Speaker
Well, I, and we see that even in, in groups that are not necessarily considered fundamentalist, but the, I mean, it's in the Bible that we're called to take care of immigrants and poor people, but we're really worried about, you know, people having sex. Yeah. We can pick and choose. Right.
01:13:31
Speaker
So the these churches see any fertility control as an affront to God, and even so far as a rejection of his blessings. Christians have an actual duty to multiply. They need to raise God's army. The author of Quiverfull, Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement by Catherine Joyce from 2010, she claims that the Quiverfull movement is solely about taking over the government to reclaim the sinful nation. And I think there's a lot to that, that we need to. Yeah, for sure. We will get into that as well. Another aside about religion. So back, you know, obviously there's always been the idea of corruption in religion, but you know, back 120 years ago, remind me know how far.
01:14:18
Speaker
Was there as much focus on this procreation idea? Or because there was no options, I guess it didn't have to be a focus. It seems like that's a more modern- Yeah, I don't really know. I mean, I think that- Yeah, I don't know for sure. I think um women who struggled to get pregnant were always seen as the problem. And um so I think in that sense, it's always been like this, that it was the women's burden.
01:14:46
Speaker
Yeah. To control their own fertility somehow, or if they couldn't have a baby or struggled, it was because of their sin. I don't know in terms of family size. I don't i don't know. I suppose back then ah as a form of raising money, that it wouldn't impact. mean I mean, it was all a land wealth and having a bunch of kids didn't really help you out there. yeah And I guess it must just be, you know there was not a whole lot of control over, and there wasn't a whole lot of birth control. So you know right you got the kids, you got the kids. What happens, happens. Yeah. And not as many kids were
01:15:27
Speaker
surviving. Right. And they were more necessary as a workforce. Right. Right. I think there was just a different motivation. Yeah, yeah. um However, despite wanting a lot of children, fertility treatments are also offensive to God. Because it's so strange to me. Well, it's taking God's desire for you into your own hands and making decisions. It's it's the same as birth control. it It's, it's taking taking it into your own hands and not trusting in God for him to decide the decide the size of your family. I just always look at, there's always to me another level to these things, if that makes sense.
01:16:11
Speaker
I mean, for me the other like for me, the other level is controlling women. So fertility treatments, generally a woman has to do all the things. And um it's just for me, it's about- I feel like I'm missing something here. I feel like there's something else I'm missing, but I'll just highlight that and think about it. Well, um so in response, a lot of people say, well, what about adoption? There are kids all over the world, they need a home. Adoption is allowed.
01:16:38
Speaker
if fertility is an issue for women and in my notes I wrote because it for sure won't be an issue for the man because that's never if they can't get pregnant it's never the husband the quiverful uh movement homeschooling is also a core belief And they see it as a means of avoiding worldly influence. Those of us on the outside see it as a means of controlling children, building up an army, whatever. So with all of that context, I think we should end there for this week. Next week we'll talk a little bit about, we'll get into the family overview, who the Duggars are, how they got their show, all of those things.
01:17:25
Speaker
But the context of all of this information is very important for everything else going forward.
Conclusion: Understanding IBLP
01:17:31
Speaker
Great job, Nikki, on and getting this outline and information put together. It really was very helpful. Very helpful to me, so I hope it was very helpful. Thanks. Nice to set up. what Gosh.
01:17:44
Speaker
You know what would be great is if I could get this stuff out of my brain and I could have learned biology in school and not have all this stuff cluttering my head. I have it all cluttering my head, but I can't even get it out. like I'm like, if somebody can just tap it, it's all up there. I just need someone to tap into it because I got amazing things floating around up there. I can could solve the world problems.
01:18:10
Speaker
I just can't get them out verbally written. No way. Yeah, I said actually I said this recently, if I could like not have as many musical theater lyrics memorized and burned into my brain, I could have had room for like geography or math or any of those things goes to show. We don't get to pick don't get to pick on those things. But you want me to perform the entire cast album of Assassins? I'll do it.
01:18:38
Speaker
a new series. I mean, that doesn't actually play a part into one of our topics. Down the road. Can't wait. Yeah. All right, guys. Thanks for listening. Yeah, we will see you next week. Bye.