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The Leaving Eden Podcast! Duggar Fam, Part 8
57 Plays23 days ago
We had the absolute delight and honor to have a conversation with Sadie and Gavi, hosts of the Leaving Eden Podcast. We talk IBLP, Duggars, parenting, our personal faith, and so much more. We were stunned that they agreed to join us on our little show, and the chat was truly wonderful.
Check their incredible podcast on any pod platform.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Fixate Today, Gone Tomorrow'
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today, Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki, and I'm here with my Aunt Joy. And today, we have two very special guests, the hosts from the Leaving Eden podcast.
00:00:11
Speaker
We have Sadie and Gavrielle. Thank you guys so much for being here. thank you for having us. We're so excited to have you. Yeah, I'm happy to be
Exploring Neurodiversity and Personal Stories
00:00:20
Speaker
here. Yeah, and we just learned that we have a fellow neurodiverse friend.
00:00:26
Speaker
So we're, you know, ah Sadie's another ADHD gal like myself. So we're just making it real spicy. i really Recently diagnosed too.
00:00:37
Speaker
and so Yeah, this is a coming out party and celebration.
00:00:43
Speaker
i mean, you've been talking about like, I think I am. well Please like... I need to get into the doctor for a minute. It's been a while. i collected my my first neurodivergent label a little over a year ago when I got diagnosed with OCD and um recently added ADHD.
00:01:03
Speaker
Yeah. You know, my diagnosis came after my son was diagnosed. And then I was like, hey, wait a minute. That's so common. That happens to parents a lot. Yep. Yep. So now now a whole bunch of us in my family have gotten official diagnoses. Yeah.
00:01:18
Speaker
I actually went in to have my so yeah son taste tested for ADHD after I had been diagnosed with autism and and and actually he had autism too. Also, I know this is not our topic, but just my mother, Nikki's grandmother, um but she's 86, but she and I, when we went we went through the diagnosis process together, because she had spent her whole life saying like, I'm i'm just not as smart as other people and I'm not as social. And um and I thought it was important. once we Once I realized that's what it was, I wanted her to know
00:01:49
Speaker
um There was sort of a reason behind that. So they were the old she was the oldest person that the ah the center we went to had ever diagnosed. That's precious. wow Yeah, that's Yeah, my grandma's the best.
00:02:03
Speaker
But sorry, moving
Deep Dive into the Duggar Family and Leaving Eden Podcast
00:02:04
Speaker
on moving on. Yes, the real reason we're here is we are hopping back a little bit to our Duggar series. And what especially when we talked about the trial back in our series, I relied heavily on the Leaving Eden podcast and the research and just how in depth everything was. So thank you guys so much.
00:02:25
Speaker
I hope it's okay we used you. Oh, yeah, we we love it Thank you for giving us credit. well And so we just kind of wanted to, um because, you know, you're especially Sadie's history as the cult survivor and then what you guys have learned over the years and just your knowledge about the whole Duggar family and all the things. So I thought it'd be nice if we could um just ask some questions about how you guys are where you are, what your the podcast history with the Duggar family is, and things like that.
Origins of the Leaving Eden Podcast
00:03:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So when we first started our show, Sadie and sadie was like trying to explain to me how she was raised. She's like, do you know who the Duggars are? Do you know 19 Kids Accounting? I'm like, never heard of it.
00:03:12
Speaker
Literally, I'd never heard of this. So for me, it was one of those. it came on right. It premiered at the right time. i was I think it's still in high school.
00:03:24
Speaker
So it was like it hit right at that time I was watching like trading spaces on TLC all the time. And so you'd see all the commercials. Now I realize that it became a fixation for me. um And I've said since then, like if somebody said, OK, we need you to go up and give a 10 minute speech about something, anything. We need you to just fill the time. I can be like, all right, you're going to learn about the Duggars. Yeah.
00:03:46
Speaker
i I was watching the Duggars as a fundamentalist kid who was babysitting. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, like I was still very much a fundy kid. I was babysitting other fundy kids and the Duggars was one program that we could have on that was approved.
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah. And I think I'm couple months older than Ginger. Okay. and I'm right in that that age range around Jessa and Ginger.
00:04:14
Speaker
Okay. So when you were watching, did it seem extreme to you, their way of life? Oh, no, not at all. Actually, i was so jealous of the Duggars because they were allowed to hold hands before they got married. Oh, yeah. Oh, wow.
00:04:31
Speaker
Yeah. but They were allowed to hold hands and side hug once they were engaged. And there was none of that in the independent Baptist world that I
Logistics and Theme Creation for the Podcast
00:04:40
Speaker
grew up in. Do you come from a large family?
00:04:43
Speaker
Weirdly, I don't. um So I'm the oldest of three, me and then two boys. And my dad always used to say, well, actually, we are quiverful. It's just that our quiver was full after three. Yeah.
00:04:58
Speaker
ah basically if god wanted him to have more kids he should have given him more money what's what my dad said i love your dad he was he was precious i quote him like every day that's wonderful uh before we go too much further do you guys want to just talk about who you are in the podcast and yeah how you guys got started actually just said on your episode today your five-year anniversary i think is coming up Yeah.
00:05:24
Speaker
Yeah. And weirdly, today is it's St. Patrick's Day that we're recording. And it was five years ago that COVID lockdown started. Like this was the first day that schools were closed for us.
00:05:36
Speaker
And so I found you guys right around like COVID times. and now You've been from like the beginning. Yeah. yeah because So how I remember this going down is that Sadie and I were like, you know, friends and we'd done some music. We, you know, ah the theme song for our podcast is one that we recorded together because we were friends from work and we lived in the same neighborhood. And so I was like, you should come over after work one day and we'll,
00:06:04
Speaker
play some music or something. We'll work on some songs. And we had a good time doing that. And we kind of came out with that song where I'd done ah most of the lyrics and Sadie did a lot of like the the melodies and stuff and put it together on the piano.
00:06:17
Speaker
And so we ended up recording it together and we sang it together. and um And then we just kind of had this song. And then COVID lockdown happened. I want to say it was end of February, early March.
00:06:31
Speaker
And we were bored. We were so bored. Yep. we both had like recording equipment. And we were like, let's start a podcast about how you were raised in a cult. Yeah, because we're both musicians.
00:06:48
Speaker
So we both already kind of had gear lying around. And so many people over the years had said to me you should start a podcast and tell all of your wild stories about being raised in a cult.
Sadie's Cult Experiences as Podcast Backbone
00:07:00
Speaker
And it was the right time. And we had lots of... nothing to do so we ate that that's how we started our podcast and we we released it in august of 2020 the first episodes though i think we were all we recorded way back in may okay yeah because um i'm trying to remember how this all got started because so uh we're not like journalist journalists in that we don't have that like university background or any of that stuff But my older brother is actually a professional real journalist and he writes about basketball.
00:07:38
Speaker
Okay. yeah, he he covers one of the NBA teams. And so and he's done he's like had podcasts before. And so at the beginning, I was asking him, like, how like, how do you actually like make a podcast? How do you like this?
00:07:54
Speaker
Yeah. And he was telling me basically like record a bunch of episodes before you release any of them. I think we did the same thing because we were scared. Yeah. So we kind of did that. And so I think we recorded like the first five or six episodes before we actually came out with any episodes. yeah ah and We had like a backlog of of like five or six and that's kind of the times that it was.
00:08:19
Speaker
It's harder than it seems um to do a podcast. Yeah, it's a little bit more than picking up a mic and talking. Yeah. um So was you right right from when you started was that the focus was going to be Sadie's background background?
00:08:32
Speaker
with the cult and then Gavi, did you have any, like your religious background, did that come into play or was it ah just more? A little bit. Yeah. Cause I was raised Jewish, but like in a pretty secular environment.
00:08:45
Speaker
So ah what we ended like, so I've, you know, I'm from Portland, Oregon, which if you ever spend time in Portland, Oregon, it's not a very religious town. It's not a town where there's churches on every
Contrasting Religious Upbringings and Perspectives
00:09:00
Speaker
street corner.
00:09:00
Speaker
Yeah. So we thought, oh, well, you know, how you how do you make good content is you take two people who have different life experiences and put them in a room together and have them talk about it. And generally, I think that that's always going to be an enduring recipe for making good content is is taking two people who have different opinions and different perspectives and putting them in a room together and having them talk about it because that's interesting.
00:09:22
Speaker
Yeah. And then you can yeah you have a a variety of topics. Yeah, i would I would tell him stories about my past, and he had just not really been exposed to this kind of strict religious environment growing up in his home in Portland, Oregon.
00:09:41
Speaker
He'd never heard of anybody who saved their first kiss for marriage. No. Yeah. So I would tell him stuff, and he would have this great reaction um because it was all new to him, and he asked questions that I would have never thought to ask myself.
00:09:56
Speaker
Yeah. Like I remember I'm trying to think of some of the questions that like I ask
Religious Movements and Church Dynamics
00:10:00
Speaker
and that you're like, I would have never thought to ask that. But like, I think one example of that would be like when I had to ask you, why would somebody pick a mega church over like a smaller church?
00:10:10
Speaker
Which is very interesting because I'm in Texas. and it was Yeah, the megachurch capital. I've been listening to a lot of your um episodes lately.
00:10:21
Speaker
And it did make me think, I'm like, well, I don't think I know but anyone for from, the the like especially the fundamentalist but Baptist backgrounds. im I'm sure we know some. But out here, it's just, mean, almost everybody's in a megachurch. i mean And they're so megachurch.
00:10:37
Speaker
Yeah, there's so many and they are so big. and so Yeah, that was interesting. And I wondered if it was more rural Like if if with the IFB... but i Did I say that right? It's IFB, right? I was like, oh God.
00:10:54
Speaker
If it... the If the... It's pronounced IFB. it's not. so And the Duggars Iblip. Yes. Iblip.
00:11:06
Speaker
If you, if it's more like, if you find is is it more of a rural? It can be. ah it can be. you will find a lot of like right now I'm.
00:11:17
Speaker
Sorry, I started three sentences at once again. going to try that again. Get right in. That is how i got got I got diagnosed with ADHD, by the way. My psychiatrist who's treating me for the OCD heard me say, like, start three sentences at once too many times and said, please go get evaluated.
00:11:36
Speaker
Anyway, I'm super deep in some research right now about how other denominations of churches may have shifted to become IFBs.
00:11:47
Speaker
There are a lot of small fundamentalist denominations in the United States, like Plymouth Brethren or Footwashing Baptist or Primitive Baptist. There are like when...
00:12:01
Speaker
The Great Awakening and the Second Great Awakening happened. There was like this huge revival in America right after the Revolutionary War. And then there was another one around the time of the Civil War.
00:12:13
Speaker
And then there was like a smaller burst of like huge revival and return to religion around World War one And these things follow wars because people see like, oh, life is bad. a lot of people are dying. I think I'm going to go get religion. Well, and and it it seems similar to kind of the ah religious right emerging in the 70s and 80s. Yeah.
00:12:37
Speaker
Post, you know, the 60s and the free love movement and kind of that hard swing the other way. Yeah, very much so. So in the wake of that, especially the Second Great Awakening around the Civil War, the Southern Baptist Church b split and became its own denomination ah as a result of the Civil War for racist reasons, unfortunately.
00:13:02
Speaker
And the Southern Baptist Convention is still, I believe, the largest Protestant denomination in the United States. Yeah, it is. My church, basically my church started as part of the ah Southern Baptist Convention.
00:13:17
Speaker
And the reason was um our pastor used to say, like, you can't launch a church. You can't launch a Protestant church right now without some sort of help from the Southern Baptist Convention. And then as soon as they could, they were like, OK, we're good. Bye.
00:13:32
Speaker
Yeah. So that is a thing that happened. And another thing that happened coming into the between the 1920s and the 1940s. So we're thinking the age of prohibition.
00:13:44
Speaker
We're thinking the lead up to World War Two. We're thinking rationing and women working outside the home broadly for the first time, Rosie the Riveter. Right in that era, some Baptists decided that the Southern Baptist Convention was just not conservative enough for them.
00:14:03
Speaker
And they didn't want somebody at the Southern Baptist Convention telling them what to do. And they wanted to, um somehow the Southern Baptist Convention wasn't good enough friends with the Klan for them. Yeah.
00:14:14
Speaker
which is which is horrible. smaller church or these churches, some of them were very large and in cities, some of them were very small and rural, split off to form the loosely interconnected independent fundamental Baptist movement.
00:14:33
Speaker
Right now I'm doing some research on how that intersects with older fundamentalist Baptist movements like primitive Baptist, but I don't really have a conclusion yet.
00:14:44
Speaker
Okay. That's fascinating. A lot of the people who would remember that specifically aren't really around today to talk about it either. So that's the problem. Right. And a lot of this stuff is, is kind of like, Oh, this is history of our individual church. But if that church is, you know, closed up, then right who's going to remember church drama from 80 years ago?
00:15:06
Speaker
Right. Yeah, exactly. Or the records for it or anything like that. Can I ask, um so if during that time you said they were like loosely based yeah churches, ah have they become over time?
00:15:22
Speaker
Is there more of a coherence in doctrine and teaching? um and And are there certain parts of the U.S. where you see um stricter churches? Yeah, so to answer that question,
00:15:35
Speaker
First, I have to mention that the IFB in particular don't believe in having any kind of denominational oversight or hierarchy. They believe in this concept called individual soul liberty, which means that each person is answerable to God for their own sins, their own salvation, their own mission in life from God. And that expands to churches.
Interplay of Politics and Religion
00:16:00
Speaker
They believe that each church should be completely autonomous and the only person with any power in that church should be the pastor. Now this gets abusive real fast because now that that's this can lead to pastors telling people who they can marry or what houses they can buy or what kind of car they need to drive.
00:16:18
Speaker
Pastors controlling people's finances and controlling people's personal lives. this can it's It unfortunately creates an environment that is like a perfect Petri dish for abuse to grow in.
00:16:29
Speaker
When there is one man who has all the power and there's nobody over him to checks and balance him. And does this work out better in some churches than others? I mean, in some.
00:16:41
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. it a healthy working yeah environment depending on who the pastor is and then who the community is? i work Yeah, I wouldn't ever say that it healthy, but there is definitely a range of much better to much worse people.
00:16:59
Speaker
So the IFB preached this idea that there is no denomination, there's no hierarchy, nobody's in charge of anybody. But in practice, they practice something called secondary separation.
00:17:14
Speaker
So separation is ah following the rules. You don't listen to rock music, women don't wear pants, ah you don't go to the movies, you don't drink, smoke, cuss, that's separation. You are different from The perceived quote unquote, quote unquote, worldly people who do all of these evil things. so Right.
00:17:34
Speaker
Secondary separation is the Baptist concept of separating oneself from the people who aren't separated enough. Right. So if your neighbor, your friend, your grandma isn't separated, isn't living by the rules, then you can't even be associated with them.
00:17:53
Speaker
that's secondary separation. and The IFB in particular will use secondary separation as a baseball bat to hit each other over the head with.
00:18:05
Speaker
And they will dissociate or reassociate with different churches depending on how many inches below the knee they let their women's skirts be or whether they use a certain version of the Bible or not.
00:18:16
Speaker
So it's very catty. There's a lot of infighting. And who is associated with who can change a lot. the The social ties between these churches are basically, if you've ever watched Bachelor in Paradise, you know, like, that's my other fixation. If you what if you want to hear about Bachelor, that's my other thing.
00:18:38
Speaker
But you know people come on the island and off the island and they're, these two people were together and then now they're not anymore. And she's dating this other guy and he's dating this other girl. Baptist churches are kind of like that on who they associate with.
00:18:50
Speaker
And who they are cool with and not cool with at any given time. So they create an us versus them mentality, it sounds like. And then that brings the us closer together at times. Yep. That is. To manipulate.
00:19:06
Speaker
Precisely. And it adds that layer of isolation too. Yep. Yep. So then those are both elements of Dr. Stephen Hassan's bite model. um When you talk about information control, ah us versus them mentality or good guys versus bad guys mentality is a huge contributor to information control in cults and like groups.
00:19:29
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. think we're finding that across that, that that's across so many, um, Especially with the politics and what's going on with our politics right now. Yeah. I'm going to throw one more question out, but do you, because I am interested in politics, do you feel like the church um and political ties, ah is that significant? Is that something that you've seen?
00:19:54
Speaker
you have any thoughts on? Kabi, do you want to take that one? I know you've been doing my research lately. I mean,
Ongoing Duggar Discussions and Controversies
00:20:00
Speaker
I'm I wouldn't describe myself as i wouldn't describe. Can i swear on this podcast or not?
00:20:06
Speaker
I say yes. my My aunt says maybe.
00:20:11
Speaker
You know what? When your aunt and a niece, like you feel this little sense of parenting. We're 11 years apart, but still. All right. So just go for it. i'm I'm not like I'm not like a single issue voter, but like one of the issues that I take very seriously is that ah I vote against religious dickheads being in charge of stuff, which ah sadly a lot of people don't do. Yeah.
00:20:39
Speaker
As is evident is my view. But there there's a lot of I mean, I would definitely that's kind of where I stand. Yeah, I would pop in to add, you talked about the Joshua generation.
00:20:51
Speaker
yeah Yeah. I was just going to bring that up. Yeah. The group that I was raised in was not quite as intense as the IBLP or Generation Joshua with getting into politics, but it was still definitely a focus. It was still um something our churches where were politically involved I heard Mike Pence speak at a church.
00:21:14
Speaker
Oh, wow. Back in like 2012, I think, at a megature and Baptist megachurch. it Politics is definitely entwined into these religions.
00:21:26
Speaker
And that can go a lot of directions. And there can be a lot of reasons. But primarily the the track of their the train of thought is kind of God ordained America to be a Christian country and we're going to have this massive role in the end times in the book of Revelation and when all those prophecies come true.
00:21:43
Speaker
So America is special. America is ordained by God to be somehow more special than all the other countries. Yeah, I've been the the rabbit hole I'm like re obsessed with right now is the Jodi Hildebrandt, Ruby Frankie case.
00:22:02
Speaker
And there is a book that Jodi Hildebrandt, Chad Daybell of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow, and then Tim Ballard. oh my God. read and...
00:22:13
Speaker
all red and And especially with Chad and Jodi, they used that specific language and it was very heavy in their role in end times. And...
00:22:26
Speaker
the book of revelation and things like that. And their responsibility to basically like set themselves up to be like the king or queen yeah because they're the only ones who know truth. Holy cow. When you say those three people in a row,
00:22:44
Speaker
wow What a combination. ah that's where I'm like, the book is called visions of glory. And definitely need to review that. That is a nightmare blunt rotation.
00:22:56
Speaker
Especially because if anybody isn't aware, Tim Ballard is, that's the guy who made the Sound of Freedom movie. Yeah, it's it's allegedly about him. And he's allegedly a bit of a perv. absolutely.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah, the same, i think, week it was released, what he stepped down from, it's called Operation Underground Railroad, which is also questionable. um But he stepped down from it at the same time because all the allegations were going to come out.
00:23:26
Speaker
um And it was, let's say, their're inappropriate behavior with women. Shocking. Yeah, which never happens in cults or misogynist Christianity.
00:23:37
Speaker
No. Never.
00:23:41
Speaker
Well, I want kind of pivot to the Duggars specifically. I have a I guess I want to know, do you guys think that there are still fans of the Duggars? Oh, I know there are still fans. Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:53
Speaker
Yeah. That I. um So a few months ago, Ginger came out with a book. Yeah. Did you read it?
00:24:04
Speaker
No, you guys told me not to. I read this book. So Ginger Duggar Vuolo came out with this book called People Pleaser. Yeah, I read her first one and then I was like, um I'm good. Her first one was, this one was even more ass than her first one.
00:24:23
Speaker
This book was like straight cheeks. It was not good. But she... writes She writes this book titled ah People Pleaser, and it's about how to not be a people pleaser.
00:24:37
Speaker
But her thesis in the book is being a people pleaser is a sin unless you're a people pleaser for Jesus, in which case we should all be people pleasers for Jesus. Yeah.
00:24:48
Speaker
And i like I read this whole book and the whole book, like the way that she set it up was she's like, this is why being a people pleaser is bad. It causes you to do the X, Y, Z thing. You shouldn't do this. You shouldn't do this. You shouldn't do this.
00:25:03
Speaker
And then she gets to the chapter where she's like, and here I'm going to tell you my secret. And she's like, the cure to being a people pleaser is to be a people pleaser. But for Jesus. And I was just I almost.
00:25:16
Speaker
I tell you, I got the audio book and i tried to get my money back for the audio book, but they wouldn't let me get my money back for the audio book. had to go on the Amazon reviews of this book and had to tell everybody that this book was legit terrible.
00:25:34
Speaker
And when I was on there, there was lot. quite a few people on there who are just like, I've been following Ginger since the, she was on TLC and I just love the Duggars and I'm so happy that she's, you know, doing blah, blah, blah, blah blah now.
00:25:49
Speaker
And, uh, she's so free and, and her life is so good. And I'm just so happy to see what people's life is like outside. I'm just like, you don't know, do you? That's my question. it's Like, do they not know or are they heads in the sand or do they not care? I think that it what it is is they're just like, well, the things they believe about the world and about other people and about who's going to heaven and who's going to hell.
00:26:20
Speaker
That's not wrong. What's wrong is that they're not allowed to wear pants. So she believes i'm not all the same stuff because she has slightly different theological beliefs. Now she's a Calvinist. Yeah.
00:26:33
Speaker
But and she wears pants now. So that's kind of where we're at. Yeah. Is is they're like, well, that's good enough for me that she's not IBLP anymore. IBLP seems crazy. And she's, you know, she's gotten out to some degree.
00:26:50
Speaker
i have to see see I have to say i bought the first book because i was this was more Nikki's obsession. And so I was trying to get up to speed. So I bought the first book, an audio
Education in Fundamentalist Communities
00:27:00
Speaker
book also.
00:27:01
Speaker
And I – Oh, it was bad. i sleep like i sleep with my headphones on and then I listen to something as I'm falling to sleep. I couldn't even continue to listen to it. fell asleep.
00:27:17
Speaker
When they got to like how to style one's hair, I'm like, i but can't do it. I'm out. I can't do it anymore. which Which book was that? Was that Growing Up Duggar?
00:27:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think. Yeah, I didn't read that one. We ah we read ah Becoming Free Indeed. Yeah, this was Gringer's like, ah she doesn't call it, she calls it disentangling from Yeah, it's her ah theological or spiritual memoir, which yeah she's like, yep, I'm done. This is where I ended up.
00:27:51
Speaker
And then she's like, now I'm putting out a so ah Christian self-help book, which was not good. Terrible. See, i was I was raised with all of that about this is you have a square face and you're a winter and this is how you should style your hair in order to get a man. That's so interesting.
00:28:10
Speaker
Like my little party trick is I can put a book on my head and pick a quarter off the floor without dropping the book off my head. There's actually there's a video of me on my Instagram and TikTok doing this if you go back couple years.
00:28:22
Speaker
Listen, I have a lot to do tonight after we're done here, but I think I'm going to spend the evening trying to do that. It's all in the knees. like I was raised with that very like super traditional, like, be a lady and all that stuff.
00:28:38
Speaker
So a lot of my, i think a lot of my experience overlaps with the Duggars. There are, we read a lot of the same books and listened to a lot of the same people. You were asking about who are still fans of the Duggars.
00:28:52
Speaker
Yeah. and Some people, some people are And I think they fall into different categories. Because there are going to be those people who are in like conservative Christian churches, but not like IFB. Right.
00:29:06
Speaker
Like Southern Baptist or conservative non-denominational, ah Bethel, Hillsong, whatever. The ones that they look a lot more hip on the outside, but their beliefs are still pretty toxic.
00:29:20
Speaker
The megachurch is in Texas. Yeah. And people like that may feel like they're getting something out of Ginger's book. Mm-hmm.
00:29:31
Speaker
Or do they feel like they're superior? I mean, I think in the past they felt like they were superior and now they feel like she's grown to their level. and Like, look at this little girl. She's grown up enough to teach me something about being a people pleaser for Jesus. And that's just my guess.
00:29:45
Speaker
But I think in a way, I'd rather them read people pleaser than toxic empathy. Yeah. Although, did you see that Jeremy and ah Ginger had Ellie Beth Stuckey on
Influence of Religion on Morals and Values
00:30:00
Speaker
there? Yeah.
00:30:01
Speaker
i I saw that because Eric Skwarzynski sent me a clip of it and I was just like, ugh. It's one of those things that like if I'm scrolling through like the Facebook reels, I'll have something like that pop up. And i' that's where I saw it was like, oh no. Yeah.
00:30:19
Speaker
See, for me, I feel like with Allie Beth Stuckey, whenever I see her speaking, I, you know, if you put her on mute, what she looks like is she looks like she's like in the house and somebody's dog pooped and she's trying to figure out where the poop is. And that's the look. She does kind of have that look.
00:30:43
Speaker
Yeah. It's like, where is it where is it over here is it over here i got a whip of something and i don't really like the thing that i got a whip of but all that to say like just like allie beth has fans um the duggers still have they they still have fans yeah and there are does allie beth have fans or does she have simps i don't know Like who who are who are her fans? and her fans women or her fans dudes that are like, I wish she was my trad wife? No, I bet Bethany Beal watches her show. Oh, Bethany- Yeah.
00:31:15
Speaker
Yeah. It's been a while since we said Bethany Beal. I feel like i need to look in the mirror three times to see what she's up to. Joy, these are all ah Christian influencers.
00:31:28
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. You lost me here. Yeah. Bethany Beal is, is ah man, I tried like a year ago or something. We did an episode where I was like, maybe let's be nice to Bethany Beal.
00:31:42
Speaker
And then now I'm just like, if I see something by Bethany Beal, yeah you know I'm thinking mean things about her in my head. i'm not I have very little room left for ah being nice to Bethany Beal because I think that – There She's awful and she doesn't deserve it. I'll have to catch up on her while you're um doing your quarter trick tonight. yeah oh There's so much to catch on. There's a lot.
00:32:09
Speaker
I'd recommend Jen from a Fundy Friday. i was just going to say that. yeah but Just like those people have fans, the Duggars do. and Then there are all the it's a train wreck and I can't look away watchers. That's me.
00:32:22
Speaker
And oh yeah, that's fine. That's a fine thing to be. I think what, what we try to do in leaving Eden is provide context for the people. It's fine to want to watch a train wreck and not be able to look away. That's human. There's nothing wrong with you, but we try to provide just a little bit deeper context so people can understand why are these people behaving in these wacky ways What is going on here?
00:32:49
Speaker
When it looks harmless, how do we know what's actually harmful? Like, that's a lot of what we do when we talk about the Yeah. And then it comes to um where you want to put your money also.
00:33:00
Speaker
So i i work at a library. So i borrowed Ginger's book, but made the decision to buy Jill's book. And it's like there's that nuance of like, even though some of these people have a lot of money, you're still deciding how to support them if you're purchasing something from them. or And so having the context is super helpful and in kind of making those decisions.
00:33:27
Speaker
Well, did Ginger sign the Lifetime Sea Org contract with Jim Bob's Bad Family Inc.? Oh, I think she probably did, right?
00:33:38
Speaker
Yeah, because in in Jill's book, Jill talks about how Jim Bob tried to get her to sign a lifetime contract for like in perpetuity for her and her kids and her kids' kids. And for you know any progeny that she and her husband, Derek, produce will be ah a lifetime of servitude with Mad Family Inc., which is Jim Bob's company.
00:33:59
Speaker
No, sorry. That just strikes me as crazy. i mean, like ah to have your adult kids be that. Yeah, that's crazy. And where he would like basically take the take ah all of their income that they make off of their own name and then pay them like one time a payment. if so I don't know how it works.
00:34:18
Speaker
ah But Jill put that
Interfaith Relationships and Personal Faith Journeys
00:34:20
Speaker
contract in their book. And I think I assume that Ginger signed it because I think that in order to be part of the Duggarverse still to like be still within like in good standing with that family, you have to sign it.
00:34:32
Speaker
And I would you know, this is just me speculating, but there's also the you know, Ginger had an easier time. switching to pants. And I wonder if there's some of that related that she agreed to sign the document and so it wasn't as big of a deal for her.
00:34:52
Speaker
and Whereas Jill is rebellious and... Yeah, I think... I think what you're implying is that Jim Bob could have made it easier on Ginger and made it harder on Jill.
00:35:04
Speaker
And I have ah absolutely no argument against that. But I wanted to point out the other side of that coin, if I may. Yeah. Because if Ginger feels like she is being a good girl and pleasing her parents...
00:35:18
Speaker
Then going against them and wearing pants, even though that disappoints them, is not going to make her feel as guilty. yeah And if Jill is feeling like she is a guilty person and a bad person.
00:35:30
Speaker
and rebellious, then her choosing to wear pants is going to make her feel even worse about herself. So whether or not there was pressure coming from Jim Bob, the effect is the same because of the misogyny, the taught in people pleasing and the, the way that um fundamentalist children are taught very specifically to have no self-esteem.
00:35:57
Speaker
Yeah. I just read, um I'm looking up, okay, I just read um Rift by Kate West. I have heard that is so good. I haven't read it yet.
00:36:07
Speaker
It was really, really good. And it brought up the term that I think is is kind of kind of obvious when you're talking about groups like this, but I've never heard a term put to it that she called it stay-at-home daughter.
00:36:21
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And I thought that just like blew my mind. I was like, that's what is happening. That's what this this control is, is you stay in your father's home until you marry the godly man that your father's probably chosen or at least vetted.
00:36:35
Speaker
Yeah. And it almost creates like the cult of family or cult of, you know, your family as a unit within a church. Yeah, and it can lead to like Russian nesting dolls, cults.
00:36:50
Speaker
Right. Because let's say, you know, the father is very controlling and effectively running a cult within his own little patriarchal family. Well, then they that family may be placed inside a church.
00:37:03
Speaker
that also operates as a cult with the pastor at the head. Right. And that true may also be within a movement like the independent fundamental Baptist movement that also has elements of cult like control coming from the top.
00:37:14
Speaker
Right. um I do recommend that book. It was very good. It was it tough as any book like that is, but very good. I think I know kind of the answer just because I listened to the podcast, but I am so curious about how you guys feel about Anna Duggar today.
00:37:29
Speaker
ah
00:37:33
Speaker
I think my opinion on her has not changed too much from, i don't know, let's say like a year or two ago. Maybe not at the time of the trial.
00:37:45
Speaker
At the time of the trial is probably the most animosity that I felt towards her. And part of that was that she, you know, when when the yeah Josh Duggar trial went down, i was recording episodes holding my lake.
00:38:01
Speaker
My little baby was like eight or nine months old. Yeah. This trial was going down. so she's just ah just that much older than josh and Anna's youngest kid, Madison, oh which is a whole different story.
00:38:17
Speaker
but i But i you know um I was writing
Parenting, Moral Values, and Societal Influences
00:38:20
Speaker
these episodes and reading about yeah the absolute depravity of what was found on his computer while bouncing an eight-month-old on my knee.
00:38:29
Speaker
like that And I was like very physically, like when a baby is that little, you're so physically involved with carrie caring for them. They're always in your arms or holding on to you or in a carrier.
00:38:40
Speaker
And like being in physical contact with my daughter and reading and doing the research for those episodes on the trial really was hard looking at Anna with newborn in her arms or Anna being pregnant, I think at the time that he was arrested.
00:38:59
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. that That was hard to see. And I think every layer that I deconstruct for myself of my own, like my life is still these constant revelations of, oh my God, I was really not raised to be a human person.
00:39:17
Speaker
was treated as subhuman my whole life. And realizing that, processing that, finding how it's affected me as an adult, working on implementing ways to heal from that so I'm not stuck there forever.
00:39:32
Speaker
i think with each of those cycles of realization and healing for me, I maybe get a little bit more sympathetic towards Anna. And I'm reminded of my sympathy towards her.
00:39:43
Speaker
And then every moment that I'm with my little one, i am reminded of my animosity towards her. So I think that I kind of... have found that, that Zen in the middle of those two things.
00:39:56
Speaker
Yeah. That's really how i feel too. That, I mean, women in this religion or group or whatever are raised a very specific way, but it's your responsibility as a parent to do the right thing.
00:40:14
Speaker
And yeah, i I think any view of Anna that isn't both and, It's just terribly lacking. If you just hate her and believe she's an enabler and she put her kids in danger without recognizing the years and years of grooming and abuse, literally her entire life and the misogynistic culture that she was raised in and like the beliefs that she was taught to have about herself.
00:40:38
Speaker
Little fundamentalist kids are taught that you're a worm. Your God sees you as the rags that people with leprosy use to wipe off their open sores. That's what's you.
00:40:50
Speaker
You are nothing. So when i think to to blame her and hate her without recognizing what she has gone through is totally wrong.
00:41:01
Speaker
And i think to write her a free pass for endangering her children because of what she has gone through is also totally wrong. think there's just no answer other than both and.
00:41:12
Speaker
My thought, though, is that during the trial, I remember reading one of the accounts of the trial said that at one point, because because the the members of the jury were given like computer monitors that had the images that Josh was looking up.
00:41:37
Speaker
that that the images that he was accessing on his computer with the Linux partition in the Tor browser. And somebody, one of the articles wrote that at one point, one of the monitors was pointed in a way that Anna could see it and that she literally had no reaction to it.
00:42:01
Speaker
Yeah, I remember that. i remember And that detail just sticks with me because when we were doing research for those episodes, I read some shit that I cannot unread. Yeah.
00:42:14
Speaker
That was like the stuff that he was accessing was there's some stuff in there that I like I that like I cannot like. get those words out. Like, like if I could go in and just like do delete on having read that sentence, I would do that.
00:42:34
Speaker
Yeah. And he was just like, and, and she, you know, that was like put in front of her. as like, this is what your husband likes. Nothing. Yeah. And, and you haven't taken steps to do anything yeah to protect these kids.
00:42:50
Speaker
Yeah. Now, at this point, though, logistically, does she have a lot of options? She's kind of stuck, right? it it Right. I mean, she's she's dependent on Jim Bob for money in that.
00:43:03
Speaker
I mean, I assume that she's dependent on Jim Bob for money. And so, you know, if she as long as she goes along with whatever it is that Jim Bob wants, then he'll keep, you know, these kids supported. Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:16
Speaker
And really what skills does she have outside of being Josh's wife and being somebody who was reality TV famous 10 years ago, 15 years ago? yeah i I think the answer to this one also has to be both hand.
00:43:34
Speaker
Like when we were doing our episodes on the trial, we did some donations to children's, was it children's safety center? Yeah, it was there was a children's, ah ah say something like that. It was based in Arkansas. It was a nonprofit based in Arkansas. Yeah, there's a nonprofit that cares for children. And a lot of what they do is children who were victims of trafficking or abuse.
00:43:58
Speaker
And well they they do forensic investigations. They do on-the-ground support, you know, the literal necessities of life. um They do therapy and counseling.
00:44:09
Speaker
so And that that puts it into perspective that there are these services in the community that Anna could access, and she doesn't.
00:44:20
Speaker
Yeah, and she's had a lot of people outside of her brother Daniel, right? Right, right. And even, i mean, say what you will, but, you know, Amy Duggar has reached out consistently, irritatingly sometimes, but still has. And there there are people in her orbit that she could bring some of this to.
00:44:44
Speaker
Yeah. Amy Duggar is, ah she is ah about the bag. Yeah. She is a clout chaser. I don't know if you guys know the podcast, um Digging Up the Duggars. They do like a recap.
00:44:56
Speaker
i there they They recap and then, but they call her famy.
00:45:02
Speaker
I've seen that one online. you that So there are resources that Anna could access. There are food stamps. There is there is Section 8 housing.
00:45:13
Speaker
There are resources out there for single mothers. There is public school. So it's the it's the both and thing again for me because there are all these resources that she could access and...
00:45:28
Speaker
She has never learned to be her own and her own person. She has been told that she is scum and dirt and a worm from the time she was a little baby and she's never had therapy to deal with that.
00:45:40
Speaker
She likely faced some sort of abuse in her marriage with Josh Duggar. And I say that because we know of him being physically and verbally violent to other people. Yeah. so it is likely that she may have faced that as well.
00:45:56
Speaker
You know what small moment in the show has always stuck with me is their wedding when they were going into the hotel and he's like steaming straight ahead and she's got the luggage. Yeah, she's pulling the suitcase.
00:46:10
Speaker
but There's that one and there's... There's a joke. i think has I think it is during her first pregnancy when they go to see the doctor, like the OB.
00:46:23
Speaker
And the doctor asks something about, are you taking your prenatal vitamins? And Josh goes, yeah, she's great at swallowing. oh yeah like Gross as that is, but also to make that joke about your wife who's pregnant with your first child on national TV. Yeah.
00:46:43
Speaker
oh Like he, there's good reason to think that she, that she probably faced to abuse us in that relationship as best as we could. And if anybody who wasn't in the relationship could guess.
00:46:53
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And she is disadvantaged even when it comes to taking advantage of those great programs that could help her. She is already behind so far in life.
00:47:06
Speaker
So that's, once again, like it's it's always going to be both and for me. Of yes, she's responsible. and Yes, she's failing her children. And yes, there are some valid reasons that she is failing right now.
00:47:20
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of I think that's where we kind of landed also by the end is is she, um I think it's easier to have your head in the sand, um but that doesn't make it right.
00:47:33
Speaker
It's easier to lean into my husband was framed and this is all a big mistake than accept what the reality is of something that horrific. And if we, like, if we expand that to Other women who are facing abusive situations.
00:47:54
Speaker
It's misogynist to say that women are helpless victims who cannot stand up for themselves or fight their way out of a bad situation. Yeah. Also misogynist not to recognize that women are systemically disadvantaged and women of color even more so and a queer women even more so. you know but All the layers of intersectionality that a person may have put them steps further behind the starting line.
00:48:21
Speaker
I think both of those are errors when you portray women as either helpless or portray it as if they have no challenges.
00:48:32
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that the way that we treat Anna Duggar is really indicative. a lot of like It says a lot about a person's feminism and their own beliefs. And that's why this is a topic that I'm super passionate about and will always talk about.
00:48:46
Speaker
Yeah. Sadie, can I ask you with your background, just talking educationally? Yeah. did First of all, did you attend public or school or did were you homeschooled? No, I attended Christian private school.
00:49:00
Speaker
In the schools that I went to, we used the same curriculum that the Duggars used. So you'll see them using a curriculum called ACE, which is Accelerated Christian Education. It's a Christian curriculum specifically meant to teach children to be office workers.
00:49:16
Speaker
So children sit in little cubicles and fill out paperwork all day. And there's no teacher you teach yourself from books. And the books have wacky things to say.
00:49:27
Speaker
like when um the school book says that the Loch Ness monster is real and it's a dinosaur left over from Noah's flood and it's proof of young earth creationism.
00:49:38
Speaker
I always wonder how it keeps a Is he having babies? Has a Loch Ness? Yeah, there's a whole... Do you think there's like a whole plan of them down there? Well, no, because if it's from before the time of Noah's Flood, that's like before the DNA got corrupted. So that's why people lived like a thousand years in the Book of Genesis and stuff. So the Loch Ness Monster is from that era.
00:50:02
Speaker
So it lives long time. It doesn't age. So I was... I was educated mostly from ACE and then later from Becca, which is just a little bit better than ACE.
00:50:14
Speaker
There is some real science mixed in with all the bad science in a Becca. um Then I went to Bible college at Hiles Anderson college, which is yeah None of the Duggars have gone to Hiles Anderson, but you can kind of draw sideways connections.
00:50:34
Speaker
um Another really famous fundee, Jill Rodriguez, her sister went to Hiles Anderson. Love J-Rod. Love J-Rod. Backwards connect that to the Duggars because now J-Rod's daughter Noree is married to Nathan, who was Anna Duggar's younger brother.
00:50:53
Speaker
So there are there are definitely connections between the Duggars and Hiles Anderson. They've been seen with prominent Hiles Anderson graduates. People who speak at IBLP conferences will often also speak in chapel at Hiles Anderson, like I think David Gibbs recently spoke in both of those meetings. there are So that the Duggars are not directly connected to Hiles Anderson, but there are a lot of connections.
00:51:20
Speaker
looser ties. There are a lot of ways you can put these people in the same world. I went there at Hiles Anderson. There were four options for... What you could do so but you could do as a woman, um you could be a pastor's wife, an assistant pastor's wife, a missionary's wife, or a teacher.
00:51:41
Speaker
So I went to college to be a teacher because that was the only one that wasn't wife. um yeah And took lovely classes like preparing for marriage where they teach you how to be submissive to your husband at all times.
00:51:56
Speaker
um that's a real college class that i took what was your favorite thing you learned in that class do you okay is there anything that you learned in that class you're like actually that was a piece of good advice no yeah i need some pointers any pointers i have my notes from that class i will i'll send you my notes because i still have my notes um so like i i didn't get feel like i got a lot of education out of being there i was there for two years and then i um Almost got kicked out over a side hug, but that's another story.
00:52:28
Speaker
ah I was just listening to that while was upstairs vacuuming, by the way. Yeah. So I didn't feel like I got a lot of education out of that. And then in my life since then, none of those credits have have meant anything to me.
00:52:45
Speaker
Like those credits are unaccredited and they're basically trash. I was going to ask that with with how that would work with the unaccredited university. So no, that... Nothing. Nothing.
00:52:57
Speaker
So i was very fortunate, believe it or not, in the IFB. I got educated, I think, very well for a girl or an AFAB person. um My dad taught me a lot of Latin and Greek.
00:53:10
Speaker
And so my usually women were not encouraged to translate scripture. But fortunately, my dad, the mega feminist thought it was probably okay women to translate scripture.
00:53:26
Speaker
And so i learned I learned Latin and Greek from my dad. I got all the way through a 12th grade education and did not graduate with a GED. I graduated with a high school diploma. Wow. Which is a lot better than a lot of fundamentalist kids get. Yeah.
00:53:40
Speaker
Do fundamentalist boys, do they have options to receive better... education or is it ah kind of the same i it's yes but only in certain areas so things like civics government and scripture and dead languages so how are they what what's the thought on how they're going to support a family one day god will provide yeah okay Yeah.
00:54:08
Speaker
and All righty. oh But they will make sure that they have that civics degree for when they have to enter ah politics to take over the country. Yeah. So the the the whole thing is very much like God will take care of you. You don't need money.
00:54:24
Speaker
Which is which is if I'm going to get off on that the misogyny aspect of it, which is also a misogynistic thing because who do you think is actually providing for the family? Is it the pastor husband who's bringing home mediocre to meager offerings every week?
00:54:41
Speaker
Or is it the person actually supporting the family, the wife, who can feed a family of seven for a week on $25 and can patch and repair all of their clothes and make them little curtain dresses like in The Sound of Music? Yep.
00:54:53
Speaker
Who is actually supporting this family? i Is it God or husband or is it the wife? I think that all the time, especially since we've been talking about Micah Miller, is it seemed like her role was almost to like make sure her pastor husband was exalted.
00:55:13
Speaker
And her she just had to like do all the things to make sure that he felt like he's the head pastor of this church. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ego management. Yeah.
00:55:25
Speaker
That's what I took college classes for. they They really had ego management in your college classes. What do you think the class preparing for marriage was about?
00:55:38
Speaker
That you're that. It's how to make your husband feel like a big shot so he can go win the souls to the Lord. While the wife is at home actually doing everything.
00:55:49
Speaker
Yeah. Conversations like these make me really thankful for my church. Yeah. it' See, a that's something that I feel really privileged to do because – We have friends in the deconstructing podcast space who are doing like, I have left religion and now consider myself an atheist.
00:56:12
Speaker
And I think that is super fine for if that is, if that's where people need to be, that is good for them. But a lot of people don't let go of faith but for a yeah lot of reasons, sometimes great reasons, sometimes reasons that I may wouldn't think are so great.
00:56:28
Speaker
but A lot of people hold on to faith. And i think what, where I see myself is being that bridge between yeah people of faith who are not hateful to other people, people of faith who would never support abuse in churches and are happy to learn about actual recommendations for preventing it from happening in the first place.
00:56:52
Speaker
Like there are so many people of faith that are totally in the right place and totally good hearted. and I can kind of be that bridge in deconstruction content for those people. Yeah, absolutely.
00:57:06
Speaker
Because it it could, it could be seen as like, you're not completely deconstructing if you're not an atheist yeah or nonbeliever. um And that's, you know, not the case. My, my pastor always calls me like the feminist, like Yeah. And you keep me around.
00:57:25
Speaker
that That tells me you've got the right relationship there. Yeah. I'm actually um kind of separate from the podcast. I'm doing some work and I'm just trying to put together some information about coercive control that um our pastors have been like very willing to hear. yeah um And just like coercive control in in church situations and kind of what the man's job is.
00:57:49
Speaker
Yeah. As. Because where where I come down on that is churches are unfortunately just a great environment for abuse to grow. It doesn't mean like, yeah I think I said earlier a petri dish, just because a petri dish is a great place for bacteria to grow doesn't mean that the petri dish is wrong or bad.
00:58:08
Speaker
It just means it has characteristics that bacteria like. And churches have characteristics that abuse and abusers like. But if you wanted to not grow bacteria in your petri dish, there are things you can do to prevent it, right?
00:58:23
Speaker
You cannot put bacteria in there. You can keep it covered. You can use bleach to sanitize the area. And just like that, we can do things within churches to make abuse way less likely.
00:58:36
Speaker
we can There are just common sense policies that actually work to create healthy environments in church. It is absolutely possible. Yeah, absolutely.
00:58:47
Speaker
Are either of you religious religiously active then currently? i mean, Sadie, after you left the church, are you still active in religion? I am really happy where I am right now.
00:59:03
Speaker
So i went through, so after I left to the IFB, I went through a phase of not engaging with religion at all. I was very, very angry. And I felt like God and religion had hurt me so badly. I didn't want anything to do with them.
00:59:17
Speaker
And I validate that past version of me. I needed the break. I don't apologize for it. I don't feel ashamed of it at all. Then I went through a phase of re-exploring religion and finding a lot of different practices that are different from the ones that i was that I grew up with. I went to Catholic mass religiously for a while.
00:59:37
Speaker
And where I've gotten to... as me being 32 now, I feel really happy and whole with one foot in and one foot out of religion.
00:59:50
Speaker
So you will often hear me think hear me say things like, well, if there is a God, then this that, and the other. i really I feel at peace with myself and at peace with whoever may be up there when I engage with religion and science at the same time when I engage with religion and logic at the same time. And when I leave space for there to be ah god, while not completely restricting myself to just one way of looking at them.
01:00:22
Speaker
i I, you know, I lean back and forth between those two spaces a lot. And but I really, i really truly believe that if there If there is a God, and I think I personally, i think I will always think there is.
01:00:35
Speaker
um If there is a God, then they are just and they are all knowing. So if there is a God, then they can see the true intentions of my heart.
01:00:46
Speaker
And I don't mean that in a wishy-washy way, like, oh, well, I tried to be a good person. i mean that in ah in a very serious and literal way. That if there is a God who is truly just, then they can truly judge everything I do and my true intentions.
01:01:04
Speaker
They can understand them in a way that I can't even. And yeah so i can't I can't go prove that there's a God or prove that there isn't a God. I can't go prove that the Bible is the word of God.
01:01:18
Speaker
A lot of people are out there trying to do that. I don't think that's my calling. I think what my calling is, is to try to connect with other humans as best as I can.
01:01:29
Speaker
I have sometimes called myself a Christian humanist, live my life in a way that I'm satisfied with, live my wife my life in a way that I believe my intentions are pure, and continue learning about religion and God. i At this point, I hope I'm never sure.
01:01:45
Speaker
I've grown. That's how I feel too. That's, that's a great way to it. I've grown to really enjoy and feel at peace in the uncertainty. I'm sorry. I was going to say, you know, they, faith is the belief in the things unseen, but I think it's also being willing to ask questions, not necessarily question everything, but, but ask questions and sometimes be satisfied or okay with not getting an answer.
01:02:15
Speaker
Now or yet. I think that's like, that's why I will often so often say Christian humanist, because to me, that uncertainty and being willing to accept, I don't know as an answer is so human.
01:02:29
Speaker
Yeah. That is like inherently a human thing. That is something that makes humanity special and makes humanity interesting. Mm hmm.
01:02:41
Speaker
So I think combining that with faith is really where I feel most at home. It's like, oh, I can accept that this is a mystery. i can accept that I personally feel like there is a God, but I don't really know who they are. i have you know some evidence that makes me feel like there is a God, but I don't know.
01:03:02
Speaker
who they are or I can't tell you what they think. I can't tell you who they hate. Yeah. I think it's very freeing to let yourself live in the mystery a little bit. Gavi, are you ah practicing the Jewish faith? Are you active? Still Jewish.
01:03:18
Speaker
Oh, was I wrong? Jewish. Oh, no, no, no. He's being funny. Oh, You still just, yeah. So, no, I'll i'll be getting texts about how much it sucks to not eat bread in couple weeks here when Passover happens.
01:03:38
Speaker
Yep. So you're Jewish in the same way I'm Catholic. I mean, I'll always, it's in my heart, and I'll always call myself, wait, so hold on real quick. You literally are of the Jewish faith, right? Like, am I just totally wrong on this? Yes. I mean, you're also like, yeah also part of it is also like an ethnic thing.
01:03:59
Speaker
So... There's part of you that'll always be connected. But it's not. Okay. yeah And has your relationship or umm learning from Sadie influenced that at all or changed your ideas about faith?
01:04:13
Speaker
A little bit maybe. i don't know. I mean, just because christian Christianity focuses so heavily on faith and we don't focus on faith because it's not really that that's not really a. hmm.
01:04:28
Speaker
for us in the same way. It's that it's, it's more of like, this is what we do now. This is what we believe. And I think I've learned a lot about de-centering Christianity because I will say something that I just believe is true about religion in general.
01:04:46
Speaker
And God will be like, wait, what?
01:04:49
Speaker
no And then I realized, oh, that's not a religious thing. That's a Christian thing. yeah And I've been raised in this Christian society and super deep in Christian evangelicalism. And I need to expand my worldview a little bit to understand that that's not universal to everyone who has a faith or a belief system.
01:05:07
Speaker
So that's really, really, really helpful for me. Yeah. No, i I'm in an interesting spot because I wasn't I was raised Catholic. ah My mom, who is Joy's sister, said once I got to confirmation, I'm an adult in the church and I can make the decision if I go to church. And I was like, I don't go to church.
01:05:27
Speaker
Yeah. And ah so I came kind of back. Well, I don't think ever, but I came to faith as an adult with my husband and in like this completely different church atmosphere that was like, ah we don't have to do like service. It doesn't have to be exactly the same every week.
01:05:48
Speaker
And the ritual of it kind of became more encompassing than the, I guess, fruit of going to church. And it was like, I have to do this thing. Because the ritual is really soothing to me. Yeah.
01:06:02
Speaker
Because I was raised in church where people yell and throw things. Right. So to me, knowing that it's going to be the same every time is really comforting. And I think when we when we get into these deeper conversations about faith, that's where we can start to find common ground. It's, oh, you know you've found something that works for you.
01:06:23
Speaker
And I've you know i tried more... black and white thinking and that didn't work for me. But hey, living in the unknown and being okay with not knowing he is working for me.
01:06:34
Speaker
And I feel more right. I feel more on track than I have in a long time. yeah And we can we can encourage people to to find what works for them, not just in the sense of what makes you feel good, but in the sense of what makes you a better person.
01:06:54
Speaker
What makes you what makes you feel like you're treating other people the way that you want to be? yeah What makes you think you're, you're a source of good in the world and the community? and And are you satisfied with your own life? Are you satisfied with your own behavior? but That's, that's my, like, that's my, ah another special interest for me. It's like that there's a weird little tiny space between religion and psychology.
01:07:22
Speaker
And I like to, get all into that space. I can understand the, um, the comfort thing though. I mean, oh no I am not religious really at all.
01:07:33
Speaker
We did attend church when, um, yeah when I was young and we're Catholic, but I do find the ritual part of it comforting. And, um, I actually, I don't know if you guys know anything about the whole Micah J.P. Miller case, but, um, I had a,
01:07:52
Speaker
I met JP and we went to, I went to church there and I don't think I've ever been to like a non-denominational, I keep calling it mass, but I guess service. And it felt so strange to me. It's the the part where you're like, okay, and it's over.
01:08:09
Speaker
Yeah. and That was, you know, the way, you know, a Catholic match, like, crescendos, and then, like, you kind of ease out of it. and But yeah, that i thought that was one of the the craziest things is, okay, yeah it's done.
01:08:24
Speaker
We just mill about it. Yeah, you she texted me and was like, oh they just end.
01:08:33
Speaker
And I'll say one more thing, just a different topic, though, ah with as I think I'm the I have kids that are grown. I'm older than than you all. But um and I've always with our kids, I've always introduced them to church. And ah like with the Catholic religion, they've always kind of gone through like their first communion.
01:08:51
Speaker
And the idea being if if church does give them comfort or guidance, you know, fully support them going that route. But one thing we found is, um I mean, without being a braggy mom, we do have very kind, very moral children who have taken the right path and and do do good things.
01:09:12
Speaker
and And they often are friends um well or, you know, even dating wise with um with a a lot of religious kids. Yeah. because they kind of have that same sense of moral of value.
01:09:26
Speaker
And it's actually been, um like guess I have, my oldest is 26. It's been a major part of um him dating and trying to find the right person because, yeah, I mean, they're attracted to each other because of their morals and values. But then there's a point where you're getting more serious and um and then that religious religious aspect, you know, you're not going to ever fully um agree on that or agree how you want to,
01:09:52
Speaker
raise your kids and and you know i've had him yeah that he's they've had um several he's had several relationships where other that they have wonderful everything else is good but they just realize they're never going to agree on that they can't reconcile no i mean and and he always breaks up with them and they're always happy you know ah like they're always friends and realize but um you know it's time to go their separate ways when you get to that point in life and you realize okay we gotta can we make it together or not so The kids aren't religious anymore.
01:10:23
Speaker
don't know if you saw this, but for the first time ever, young men are more religious than young women. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. That's concerning to me, however. for um I am afraid it's kind of – I'm concerned that it's going hand-in-hand with kind of like the red pilling, the masculinity. mean, it is. Yeah.
01:10:46
Speaker
That's the thing is that, I mean, like Sadie was saying with the – With the Great Awakening, you know, coming after wars, people come to like after a crazy traumatic event like COVID.
01:10:58
Speaker
Yeah. Where are people going with it? You know, the um i've I've been reading a lot about this. And I think that a lot of the culture war that's going on between religious and non-religious, you know, people, the right and the and the not right.
01:11:14
Speaker
is to do with young man young men being angry that women don't want to have sex with them. Yeah, I mean, i too what is it's like, yeah, what a strange obsession that it seems like lot. I just watched this show on Netflix yesterday. want it's four episodes. I watched it all day yesterday, um called adolescence.
01:11:38
Speaker
And it is about that it is a 13 year old boys accused of murdering ah class of ah girl who's a classmate. And it was so good. But Should I check it out?
01:11:49
Speaker
I think so. So, cause the thing that is kind of going on now and like culture, I think is that it's not men competing with other men to try and attract women.
01:12:04
Speaker
It's men competing with ah a cat in a good book. which you can't fucking do unless you're ah like a, a good person, you know, and you're a legit person.
01:12:19
Speaker
And these guys are like, but I don't want to be a good person. I want to, I want to do what I want to do. And, and you still have to like me cause you have to get married yeah and to have sex with me. And women are just like, uh, maybe not a rather, I'd rather stay single and happy.
01:12:38
Speaker
And, uh, And all these men are like, no, I need to go to church to find myself a teenage bride. So my son almost 13. He'll be 13 couple weeks.
01:12:51
Speaker
and My husband and i have, I mean, we have with our other two kids as well, like talked about consent and all those things. But with our son been very much like, you have a huge responsibility to be a good man.
01:13:07
Speaker
And this is what that looks like. And one of like my proudest parenting moments with him is he brought a long sleeve shirt to school to keep in his locker. And I was like, what are you doing? He hates long sleeves. He hates pants. He's and he's wearing shorts in negative 20 degree weather where we live.
01:13:23
Speaker
And he's bringing a long sleeve shirt. And I said, what's that for? And he said, well, I remembered that my older sibling got their period around this age. So I thought if any of my friends who are girls like had their period and needed to tie a shirt around their stomach, I could just have one. Oh, that's so sweet. I was like,
01:13:42
Speaker
and but it has been so it's been hard to raise a good boy ah raise a good man do you see because if if you've got kids that age yeah do you see their friends being like are you trying to sniff out which one of them's like which ones of them like andrew tate yep yep absolutely and and you talk to other moms about it like You know, i i I do to the moms that I'm friends with, which then inherently is like they have similar ideals and values.
01:14:16
Speaker
So it's right it's really the um I'm seeing it more with actually my oldest. ah My oldest is 14 and they are experimenting, exploring with gender and and um sexuality and and we're using they them pronouns. And Things like that. And the rhetoric and the the things that they have had to deal with this year have been next level.
01:14:42
Speaker
I don't doubt it. And so that's where I'm seeing it more. My son is pretty good about being like, this kid said this and it's so dumb. And I told him to stop and like letting it roll off his back. um But my, my oldest is very, they're in it right now.
01:14:58
Speaker
And um their school psychologist said that, you know, since the beginning of this school year and it ramped up around November, um the bullying for anybody who is not straight, white, whatever, has been a lot, has been more than they've seen before.
01:15:22
Speaker
That's crazy. I have my... yeah My daughter, I have a very gentle, very sweet daughter who had never dated. She's 22 now.
01:15:33
Speaker
And she went to actually a very conservative Catholic school in Texas Oddly enough, not because we are at all. It just ended up being where she went to to school.
01:15:45
Speaker
and um And she, we always kind of laugh, sent her off to this ah the school and she came back with a girlfriend. Oh, that's cute. It is. They're so cute. but They're adorable. They're the cutest couple. And um and that they actually are married because of a lot of reasons with, um but you know, before that Before political stuff comes down harder. Yeah, yeah. so there yeah But they're not outwardly, they're not really touchy, um outwardly physical people.
01:16:24
Speaker
ah and they But we had ah we've been looking at wedding venues and they had their first one that um denied them because they were same sex. And honestly, never even thought entered our mind that that would be an issue.
01:16:41
Speaker
Um, and they did write back, I mean, not a ah mean email, but saying we, uh, you know, and especially my, my Andrea, my daughter-in-law is she, you know, she she's come from a very, um, a Catholic, very strict, um, conservative background.
01:16:58
Speaker
And they explained, they went to school, you know, what and they've never, that was the, the, the first time that they have ever had, um, just such blatant discrimination. yeah. And honestly, they, that's crazy off guard. I mean, I mean, I, you know, I'm planning a wedding right now too, but that's like, and that's just like something that didn't even enter my mind that could happen, but I'm planning a straight wedding. So well that's, and the irony is that the place that they were looking at, um, kind of had a beautiful chapel of sorts. Um,
01:17:33
Speaker
The thing is, that they're already actually legally married. and And we had thought about that because it was it did have a chapel. And and um my daughter-in-law does come from such a religious background that it was almost...
01:17:47
Speaker
They felt like it was best not to use the chapel just because that, I don't know, it was kind of a weird feeling. ah And yeah, that was when they got their, their letter. It was like, it was a ah lot about using this chapel and um you know, how they look at it as religious places. And when they wrote back their note letter, they're like, irony was we weren't going to use I mean, so the letter, what did it did it say? I'm sorry. We are ah sorry to inform you that. Like, like, like, how did they phrase it? Were they just like it it just your same sex union goes against our religious beliefs? Or what what was it? How was it like? Yep. Well, first of all, it was a lot of like delaying. I mean, they were writing to say, OK, we want to go with this venue.
01:18:34
Speaker
You know, what's the next step? And then they kept it not getting an answer back, which. just seemed We thought they were just disorganized. Were they just trying to like say, oh, sorry, we booked somebody else on that date.
01:18:45
Speaker
That's probably the... Yeah, and but they didn't. No, they came out they came out and actually the person... Damn. I mean, I think the person who had to write the letter was not the one... who felt this way. So you could see that it was a difficult thing for her to put together because I think it's the first time it's come up. Man, I'd quit. I worked there, I'd quit.
01:19:06
Speaker
Yeah, they focused on the chapel being consecrated and then that just not being part of their beliefs. And, you know, they tried to make it kind. But yeah, it it was kind of shocking.
01:19:18
Speaker
You can't really be kind with that. That's not really kindness. Yeah, your your existence is invalid. There's just no nice way to say it And they're just the sweet, i don't know, like Nikki could tell you, they're just the sweetest, kindest. They just love each other to love each other. i mean, you know what I mean? They just, out of two people in this world who just, it has nothing to do with sexuality. They just love each other.
01:19:41
Speaker
They just found the right person. And it's so hard for, I think our next generation is starting to learn that. But just love is just love. um But anyways.
01:19:55
Speaker
Well, and that and that the thing that will slow that down is kind of what I was saying. ah You know, the atmosphere we're in now with a lot of these kids are hearing these things at home.
01:20:08
Speaker
And then bringing... feeling emboldened enough to bring that out into the public. yeah And so it's like this fine balance of, of, I am working really, really hard to raise these really like accepting kind people that I'm responsible for.
01:20:24
Speaker
And I have to fight against these, the parents who are not doing that. Yeah, I'm just trying. that i'm like 10 years behind you. If your oldest is 14, my baby just turned four. So I'm just not that far behind you trying to do the same thing that you're trying to do.
01:20:42
Speaker
um My Chuck, the other day we were driving to school, which is a great time to ask super complicated questions. Yes.
01:20:53
Speaker
She asked me a question about when she grew in my uterus because she knows she grew in my uterus and I you know gave her the answer. She asked how babies get out and I gave her the answer.
01:21:05
Speaker
And then she didn't ask how they get in, which was nice because and asks I'm going to tell her. Yep. I was glad that she didn't. I was not quite ready to have that conversation.
01:21:17
Speaker
should have a little more time on that one. I had told her, yeah, she was not quite four yet at the time this happened. But in that conversation, you I had told her that people with uteruses are people who can grow babies.
01:21:28
Speaker
And often when somebody is born and the doctor says it's a girl, what the doctor means is this person has a uterus. And usually those things go together, but not always. And I'm lucky to have adults in her life where I can say oh well you know River has a uterus but River's not a boy or a girl.
01:21:46
Speaker
Your friend Trevor has a uterus but he's a boy. Like so I have actual adults in her life that I can point to and say well you know um often people with uteruses are girls but not always. And and be able to show her that and to have couples that are not a straight man and a straight woman in her life where I can have that illustrative, oh, well, you know, so-and-so and so-and-so. They're both girls and they love each other. And it's just, kind of going back to the Duggars, it just shows the importance of community and external influences and yeah why not being insulated matters.
01:22:23
Speaker
Yeah, because it's so much easier to explain when there's a real life lesbian couple in her life who I think are great. I think they're good role models for my kid. And I can just say, oh, you know, like Betty and Susie.
01:22:39
Speaker
It's a lot easier.
Conversations on Gender Identity with Children
01:22:41
Speaker
So the end of that conversation was Chuck asked me, she said, well, am I a girl? And I said, well, I don't know, baby, you might be, but you're going to have to tell me.
01:22:50
Speaker
And she goes, no, you tell me.
01:22:56
Speaker
She was very indignant about that. She's like, I understand. I don't like making decisions either. Yeah. With my daughter, I always, because she hadn't dated till late in life, I'm always like, do you have a crush on, you know, any boys or girls?
01:23:13
Speaker
ah And so we always, and then she usually was like, no, no, no, till finally it was yes. But with my, I have my boys, I always like, okay, do you have a crush on any boy or girl? And they're like, mom, no.
01:23:26
Speaker
Just like, you can stick with the boy for me. I'm sorry, I said that backwards. Do you have any crush on a girl or a boy? And ah yeah he's like, you don't have to keep saying that. I'm i'm i'm good. i'm glad It's great.
01:23:43
Speaker
You know, it's really nice. It's honestly nice to hear that, like as a mom of a little one, because that's the same conversations I'm having with my kid now. And it's really, really sweet to hear. you saying, oh, I was having these conversations with my kids 20 years ago or 10 years ago.
01:24:00
Speaker
And to know that your kids are turning out all right. No, it was very sweet. because guess ah That's encouraging for me to hear. and I would ask my daughter, you know, like periodically and And finally one day she's like, i do.
01:24:12
Speaker
And it's a she. it' call And i'm glad I'm glad she did not hesitate. And I'm glad there was no, you know, they talk about coming out and all that. That was never, that was just never a thing.
01:24:23
Speaker
um She just loves a girl. that was you know and And that's like, all of these conversations are so important. And that's what makes those things that could be traumatic, like coming out or realizing you're attracted to someone of the same gender or things like that.
01:24:45
Speaker
it's It's working really hard to make those things not traumatic. And my oldest, um when they were first, they they realized at least at the very least they knew they were queer.
01:24:57
Speaker
And the way they came out to us was my husband. My husband made a dick joke. And my oldest went, you know, that's disgusting. This is why I like girls and stormed away.
01:25:09
Speaker
And then my husband, my husband looked at me and went, wait, did they just tell us something? Yeah.
Learning from Public Figures and Personal Growth
01:25:18
Speaker
was like oh yeah i think that was important but that just it just means that everything is okay relationship wise with the kids whatever they're experiencing they feel safe and this is what like so far off the rails conversation because um like sorry sorry oh no i don't think there's anything to be sorry for because the like i find it so much more valuable to use the Duggars and their flaws and their mistakes as a jumping off point for talking about something constructive.
01:25:59
Speaker
Yeah. Like, I don't find it useful to look at the Duggars and point and laugh and go, ew, they're weird. They had scandals. Josh is a bad person. Like, that that's just entertainment. Yeah.
01:26:11
Speaker
And when you take it deeper into these conversations of, here's how I'm raising my kid to not be repressed to the way that their kids were. Here's how I'm raising my kid to be empowered and rough situations.
01:26:25
Speaker
Here's how I'm raising my kid to be resilient. Here's things that I've learned about myself coming out of that kind of oppressive environment. you take what You take it beyond the point and laugh of oh, wow, these people are weird.
01:26:39
Speaker
And it becomes something really beautiful that it becomes about yeah our own personal growth, our own journeys through parenthood.
Closing Thoughts and Gratitude
01:26:46
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's what I'm always, that's what I'm always trying to do with Duggar stuff. I love that. There's nothing wrong with being entertained, but I like to make it that next level.
01:26:57
Speaker
Yeah. I really love that. Well, I don't think I have much else. Joy, do you? No, and I feel bad, Gavi. You're like, we're having this whole kid talk and you're just, you're at, you're getting ready for a wedding. So that's exciting for you. I hope it goes wonderful. It's going to be good. August of 26.
01:27:15
Speaker
Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you guys so much for taking the time to do this with us. We really appreciate it. Yeah, this is this really, really means a lot to us. where We're teeny tiny. We're just trying to trying to start doing this. And we've been loving the content creation. And you know we're excited if it goes anywhere. So just having some pros hang out with us is really, really great. So thank you so much.
01:27:39
Speaker
Nice to have good role models. Well, thank you so much for having Take care. you too. Bye-bye.
01:27:56
Speaker
you