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The Duggar Family and the IBLP, Part 2
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Let's meet the Duggar family! How did this family gain such notoriety, so quickly? Why were we so invested in this family? What signs did the TLC audience miss?
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
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Transcript
Introduction to Hyperfixations and the Duggar Family
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today, Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki, and I'm here with my Aunt Joy. We are two neurodivergent ladies who obsess about various topics. Joy is autistic, and I have ADHD, and we are letting our hyperfixations fly. Today, we are fixating on the Duggar family.
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome back. We are on episode two of our Dugger and IVLP. Well, my Dugger and IVLP hyperfixation. I'm just listening. I'm sucking you into some things though. You are and it's working, but. ah So I will say you should probably listen to our first episode in the series for a lot of really important context about kind of where, you know, where, how the family got to, where it is now.
00:00:56
Speaker
which we're, you know, we're going to get there, but a lot of the stuff we talked about last week is really, really, really important kind of world building for how the Duggers got their show and.
00:01:08
Speaker
how their beliefs have spread and things like that. So yeah, go back, listen to that if you
The Duggars: Life Before, During, and After Fame
00:01:13
Speaker
haven't. Today we're going to talk about, we're going to kind of set up a family overview of the Duggers life before the show, during the show, and then after the show. I tried to break it up like that. I'm going to do a quick run through of sources. I used Shiny Happy People on Amazon Prime.
00:01:32
Speaker
the book Counting the Cost by Jill Duggar Dillard, the YouTube channel Fundie Fridays. I used a bajillion podcasts that are Some Place Underneath, the Leaving Eden podcast, Time Suck, Digging Up the Duggers, Pretty Lies and Alibis, and Behind the Bastards. I used the Duggar Snark subreddit, the website's Recovering Grace and Homeschoolers Anonymous, NBC News and Wikipedia.
Jim Bob's Political Career and Family Image
00:02:02
Speaker
All right, so let's talk about life before the Duggars had a popular TV show and a name that we recognized at all. Last episode, we talked about, um, you know, Jim Bob and Michelle getting married, having their first few children, things like that. But I want to talk about what their life was like, um, in terms of why they ended up where we are now. So Jim Bob served as a member of the Arkansas House of Representatives from 1999 to 2002.
00:02:32
Speaker
And this, there's a moment that a picture was taken of the family going to vote. All the kids are in matching outfits. They're lined up like little ducklings following their, their mama and daddy duckling or duck. Michelle's pregnant. I'm pretty sure. Pretty much she sure she has to be. All right. This is the beginning of the family's public life. Okay. There's, so this picture was taken and published of them. Um, well, not that, but Jim, Bob and Michelle going to vote.
00:03:00
Speaker
and it goes the, I guess, like early 2000s version of viral.
00:03:09
Speaker
it's but Jim Bob at this time is also investing in rental properties, which I'm pretty sure to this day, he's still kind of running. um And he boasted a debt-free life, boasting paying for everything in cash. He always said buy used, save the difference.
Building the Duggar House and First TV Special
00:03:26
Speaker
So in the year 2000,
00:03:29
Speaker
um The family begins construction of this massive house that they live in today. The house is completed six years later in 2006 with funds from the show and home furnishings actually like from Discovery Networks and other sponsors. Okay, side snark. Yeah. How many square feet is this house?
00:03:49
Speaker
I can't remember, but huge. It's stupid big. It's not looking great. Second thing is six years to build it? That's craziness. Well, okay it's because they did it. Okay. And I was going to say, I would imagine it's a storyline that they could drag out. Oh yeah. There are no way it takes six years to build a house. Oh yeah. Well, I shouldn't say it. Have a house built. Exactly. When children are doing it, it will.
00:04:16
Speaker
because ah tired you three-year-olds out there painting where you're not far off the building of this house tire child labor laws and work permits were just ignored okay and it's documented on television but so i shouldn't be snarky about the look well it they haven't updated it like it's very of its time yeah yeah i mean i'm sure they have more going on than that but
00:04:46
Speaker
You know what? It's a page. I know. I do watch. ah Well, I have it. I've seen the oldest daughter, Jana, is kind of amazing. Like she's taught herself all of this. Like she can build things. She she's just incredible. Like that's cool. And she started like slowly kind of redesigning some of the rooms. So they have this giant playroom in their house with like an indoor slide and stuff like
Duggars' Conservative Beliefs and Media Strategy
00:05:11
Speaker
that. And she did like a complete revamp of it taking like the dark wood stuff out and making it white. That would be fun. That would be fun to go do. So she started doing that because she didn't get married until her 30s. So she was living at home because that's what daughters have to do. And needed a storyline. I don't think she needed a story. Because this wasn't on TV. This was on her YouTube channel. I think she needed something to do. She was in her 30s living at home. I mean, I'm kind of shocked.
00:05:44
Speaker
that she was at old without being married in this in this environment. We'll get to it, but I think there's a reason. yeah yep I think there's multiple, but my conspiracy theory reason. ah We'll get there. The Duggars boasted that they were independent Baptists.
00:06:01
Speaker
which is an offshoot of the Institute of Basic Life Principles and Advanced Training Institute. But they never publicly said they were part of those groups. It became understood that they were. um They boasted purity and modesty, no birth control, letting God decide how many children you have. Fell under the quiverful movement. We see conformity to family. So the the little ducklings all dressed the same.
00:06:31
Speaker
male headship and subservient women. The family claimed they weren't part of the IBLP or the Quiverful movement, but like, duh, we know they are. Why do you think they did? I mean, why do you? So the reason they got the show, and I can't remember if I wrote this in, but A family who doesn't allow television then is on television. They said they were using it as kind of like a missions field to spread the word of God okay to millions, right? If the links to this high control group were a part of that, TLC wouldn't have given them given them the show. It would have been too kind of more dangerous to be like, this is a sketchier group. but
00:07:16
Speaker
But this interesting, let's say, group of so many children, they're debt free, mom stays at home, they homeschool, let's platform them. If the reason they're agreeing is so that they can talk about their, you know, talk about God and spreading the gospel, we'll give them that opportunity. But if they go so far as to like talking about these direct movements that people could research and see that it was sketchy, they weren't gonna be given okay the platform.
00:07:46
Speaker
Yeah, and I didn't think about that, but yeah, the difference between, say, what is it, eight passengers? Yeah. Was that a YouTube channel, right? They could do what they want. They could right they didn't have anyone to... this is This is national television, network TV, sponsors. Don't think about that. Okay. Things like that. Yeah. ah We also see, like we talked about last week, courtship with chaperones. Men asked the father's permission to court daughters.
00:08:15
Speaker
Big emphasis on homeschooling, limited outside influences, i.e. media, internet, ah historical events.
Gender Roles and Dress Codes in the Duggar Family
00:08:25
Speaker
There's a bit of rewriting of history in a lot of historical events. Heavy internet filters that we'll see some computer literate kids might find a way around later. Big emphasis on avoiding eye traps.
00:08:43
Speaker
which are eye traps are women immodestly dressed. Women must protect men from temptation. Women and girls have their long hair, long skirts, tops with sleeves. Men and boys have short hair because long hair will make them gay.
00:09:05
Speaker
They must be clean shaven and pants, always pants. See, I don't agree. running team in this podcast. I like the beard. You're good. All right. So, you know what? There's never any worry about female to male eye traps. No, no, no, no. Women don't have desire. What do you mean? Disgusting.
Rise and Fall of '19 Kids and Counting'
00:09:33
Speaker
You hurl it. This is funny.
00:09:38
Speaker
All right, so in 2004, the Duggars got a TV special on, at the time it was Discovery Health, TLC, I don't think was around quite yet, or they were like sister networks, TLC owned Discovery or the other way around Discovery owned TLC, but- Like back when they were really about learning something? Right, right.
00:09:58
Speaker
um So at that time they got a TV special called 14 Children and Pregnant Again that aired. It debuted on September 6, 2004. This is the first sighting we get of how their house is run. They're in a teeny house. That's not good for a family of that size. I think they had one bathroom. Oh good. too It had kind of like a hey look at those freaks vibe to that special.
00:10:26
Speaker
like you know i need like yeah It was kind of different targeted. Yeah. The premise of the show was targeted. Yeah. It felt like these people are really weird. Let's watch them. Okay. ah Which was fair. Just in a different way.
00:10:40
Speaker
Yeah. or or Or it evolved in a different way because it did well. Yeah. ah The question for you, did you watch, I've never, I never watched the show. Well, I never watched this at all. Did did you ever watch it? but So I started watching, I think I watched one of the one of the later specials. there's There's three specials in a row that aired kind of back to back almost in 2006 when they had 16 kids.
00:11:09
Speaker
I think I watched one of these. And then when they had the actual show, when it went from having like the TV specials to the show, I started watching like immediately. So those, the 2006 ones are raising 16 children, 16 children and moving in. I think that's the one I watch because it's when they move into the huge house. okay And I have weird memories of that. And then on the road with 16 children. that That sounds like a nightmare.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yep. In 2007, a special called Dugger's Big Family Album debuted. And then in 2008, they officially had their show, which was 17 Kids and Counting, which in 2009 turned to 18 Kids and Counting. And then through the end of the show, when it ended in 2015, it was 19 Kids and Counting.
00:12:05
Speaker
the show premiered September 2008. It was mostly, I mean, it's kind of boring. I listened to Digging Up the Duggers and it's recapping episodes. And sometimes they're just like 20 minutes to just to like recap the episode. And they're like, nothing happened. Yeah. I mean, that was kind of, they're looking for things to happen all the time. So because the kids got older, the courtships and the became much more like they needed to, like they needed to have something. And I think that was part of the pressure. Exactly.
00:12:35
Speaker
Yep. Yep. So during, uh, I just want to highlight a couple notable events during the run of the series. Their 19th child, Josie was born premature. I want to say like 21 or 22 weeks, like there, like she was, um, one pound, six ounces when she was born. Well, that it's really sad, but I can imagine a great story line.
00:12:59
Speaker
Oh yeah. She was, Josie was in the NICU for four months. And then the show documented sometimes she would have to be rushed back to the hospital. She was on oxygen at home, all of these things. and And questions arose from that. This is kind of when people started looking at their beliefs because the safety of of what they believed in with having so many children. I mean, she would I feel like Michelle was probably in her 40s. Yeah, and just early 40s when she had Josie. And, you know, being an older woman, having gone through so many pregnancies, right? And just wear and tear in the womb. Right. And I think it was I think she very suddenly got a really bad ah case of preeclampsia like she almost died.
00:13:49
Speaker
egg And at that point, that's when they made a conscious decision to stop, right? I mean, is that? No. Oh, ah really? Nope. Not at all. Because in 2011, Michelle announces her pregnancy with their 20th child. oh She miscarried this child and they named her Jubilee Shalom.
00:14:16
Speaker
Okay. And since then they've not used anything to prevent pregnancy. She's just not, she's just not able to get pregnant anymore because of her age. They never stopped. Even with Josie, they never made the decision to stop trying to have children. Wow. There was a lot of um heat put on them when they announced their 20th, the pregnancy with the 20th child. I can imagine. Yep.
00:14:42
Speaker
So another notable event, 2013. Josh Duggar, the oldest child, and his wife Anna moved to Washington DC for Josh's new job as executive director at the Family Research Council, which is ah basically a conservative lobbying association. This is going to be a really important milestone for Josh is, I say little family. They had four kids at that time, but Josh's family is leaving the nest of Arkansas where he was like kind of the King. He was the first born of a huge, first born male of a huge family, very sheltered all of a sudden in Washington, DC. He's getting out of there.
00:15:28
Speaker
Uh-huh. So Josh has been actually labeled, I didn't realize this, but the, um, the LGBTQIA association, GLAAD labeled him like him personally as an anti-gay activist.
00:15:44
Speaker
So his stance on the LGBTQIA community is like very clear by being associated with the Family Research Council. They've been so far by the Southern Poverty Law Center labeled the Family Research Council an anti-gay hate group. So none of this was shown on the show. None of that was explained the organization he worked for when he moved that never used the name or anything like that. But that was ah that the Family Council was very, very focused on
00:16:15
Speaker
LGBTQIA plus community and abortion. Mm hmm. I can see that. So we should keep that in mind coming down the line when things start happening that don't necessarily align with the family's values. But it doesn't seem like I was going to say out of this as those 20 kids, we don't have any gay children. I have thoughts. OK.
00:16:39
Speaker
All right. In 2013 and 2014, Jill and Jessa Duggar both have courtships and get married. And then they both announced pregnancies in 2015. So these were huge. Just as you said, these were huge ratings boosts.
00:16:57
Speaker
to see these kids that you know we've grown up with, these girls getting married and what they're gonna do. And i you know being under the headship of a different man than their father, what that would look like. I was always curious about that. I didn't know that's what I was curious about, but I was like, is she gonna listen to her dad or her husband? What's gonna happen? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the dad was very involved in ah approving. And their lives of after marriage.
00:17:26
Speaker
Okay, so the family wrote a few books during the series. um In 2008, the Duggars, so this was, I think this is Michelle and Jim Bob, wrote 20 and the Duggars, 20 and Counting. um Michelle and Jim Bob also wrote a love that multiplies And then the four oldest girls in 2014, Jana, Jill, Jessa, and Ginger wrote a book called Growing Up Duggar, It's All About Relationships. The show was canceled in July 2015. We will definitely talk about why. But at the time of the cancellation, it was estimated that the Duggars were making $25 million dollars a year. Wow. And is that just off the show or? Show sponsorship books. Wow.
00:18:17
Speaker
speaking engagements because once they got popular, they spoke a lot at IBLP conferences. okay in um After the cancellation of 19 Kids and Counting, TLC rebranded and premiered the show Jill and Jessa Counting On. It started as a three-part series focusing on the lives of newlyweds Jill and Derek Dillard and Jessa and Ben Seawald. And this is ah one of the episodes, I think the first one, focused on how Anna and the older Duggar children dealt with the aftermath of all of the Josh scandals, which again, we will get to.
00:18:58
Speaker
Just to clarify, Jill and Jessa are the two oldest girls. Shanna's the oldest who remained unmarried the longest. Jill and Jessa are the next in line for girls. okay And when they got married, they were above 20, right? Yes.
00:19:14
Speaker
Yes, they were, but no college, no college um Jill did some midwife education. treatment like Yeah. Yeah. Cause they're allowed to do that for careers. It's not a career. It's, you know, cause they, they, they're calling. Well, and a lot of women in these communities do home birthing. Um, and so having a midwife that is in your community is valuable, but yeah, no college, um, nothing like that.
Scandals and Rebranding Efforts
00:19:45
Speaker
So after the three-part special, a new series started called Counting On. This ran from 2016 to 2020. Initially, like they almost didn't show Michelle and Jim Bob at all. As the show progressed, they started slowly adding them back in, letting them have talking heads, but it primarily focused on the older kids and getting married, having babies.
00:20:08
Speaker
Things like that. It was canceled after Josh's arrest. TLC finally was like, okay, we'll stop. So after the show, life has been tricky. In 2019, Josh's car lot was raided by Homeland Security. Back then, we didn't know for sure what was happening. We'll talk about his scandal specifically, but His scandals didn't necessarily rise to the level of Homeland Security that the public knew about at the time. As we know now, they certainly did because April, 2021, Josh is arrested on federal charges of receiving and possessing child sex abuse material. I do want to do a quick caveat about the term I'm going to use. um I'm going to use child sex abuse material. We talked a little bit about language last episode and I'm actually for for our YouTube channel doing
00:21:07
Speaker
working on a video right now that that kind of has the same vibe with the use of language in terms of material like this. But child pornography um has a different connotation. ah Pornography is generally understood that the people involved in making the content are both, can are not necessarily both, I don't know, but are consensual. It's a consensual act.
00:21:33
Speaker
Everybody knows it's happening. It's likely going to be released for money and the participants are going to be paid. It suggests consent. Any sort of child sex, anything cannot be consensual. So the the more accepted term, right? Currently is child sex abuse material. I think it gives a more meaning to, I don't know, it sounds harsher as it should.
00:22:02
Speaker
So I think it's a better summation of what what child, quote, pornography actually is, it's abuse. I'm gonna make a side note here, and this is a ah little hard to pull in just as a thought, but without going into much detail, um the f FBI and the in the US had created phone that underground criminal organizations could use for communication that they thought was like totally safe and totally encrypted, but really the FBI could see all of it.
00:22:38
Speaker
episode didn't know of itself. Very interesting. But in twenty twenty in June of 2021 is ah like, basically they had to shut them. they they had They were shut down. They could no longer pursue this this project. So when I see the April of 2021, I feel like they were wrap and ramping things up or ramping things down and to try to get some of those taken care of. But it also would tell me If that we could just be coincidence, but if that was true. Um, I mean, these were criminals, you know, high level criminals with, with these phones. I mean, they weren't, it wasn't something everyone had. Um, so maybe an indication that Josh could have been involved with possibly more things too. So, or someone in his orbit also, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That is interesting timing.
00:23:35
Speaker
Um, also 2021 in the midst of, I guess it what I thought it was his trial, but in the midst of like the arrest and it did end up being a part of the trial, Jimbo decided it would be a great time to run for US Senate. He lost, but this time did highlight his friendship with governor, uh, Mike Huckabee, who again is another high ranking government person, um, that a member of the IBLP has ties to.
00:24:04
Speaker
His daughter's in politics now. In 2023, Ginger Duggar Volo, I always say her name wrong, Volo's book, Becoming Free Indeed, My Story of Disentangling Faith from Fear is published.
Duggar Daughters Speak Out
00:24:18
Speaker
This book is more about kind of figuring out her own faith outside of the IBLP. um She doesn't call out any family members except for her brother Josh.
00:24:30
Speaker
She doesn't, you know, no names of like anybody within her family who might've led her wrong, anything like that. she And she really toes the line of calling IBLP a cult. There were so many videos of her giving interviews that when they would say,
00:24:45
Speaker
you know, is this group you came from a cult, she would say, I think it shares characteristics of different groups that would be called the cult. Like she would never say she'd never use that word. Um, and it was speculated. It's because a lot of her family are still in it and she didn't want to alienate her family.
00:25:03
Speaker
ah But the book really just explains how her upbringing under the IBLP has negative negatively impacted her life. A really important part of the book is a lot about how she manages anxiety from always feeling like she had to be perfect and do everything right. I didn't use it. I read it. I didn't use it as a source because really it didn't it wasn't what we wanted it to be and how it was marketed to be before it was released. It was really marketed as like We want to read this book and get the tea about the Duggars and it wasn't that at all. And I think that's a disservice to Ginger as well. ah she's She's one of the older girls in the family. Yes. Yep. And she was like one of the first ones to wear pants. She lives in L.A. OK. So, yeah, she was like kind of the wild child.
00:25:55
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. All right. Um, so a year later in 2024, Jill Duggar Dillard's book counting the cost is published. This is the one you should read. She lays out her abusive and repressive childhood. She uses, she describes it like that. She names names. She also in the book, um, revealed that she had not been compensated for either show. Now that shocked me. Yeah.
00:26:26
Speaker
It is a good book. I've started reading it. And she does do a good job about it making it a memoir, primarily about her life and how it's within this, but obviously.
00:26:38
Speaker
You know, her life included a lot of these others. I just don't even, it doesn't compute with me how, especially after they were married and over the age of 18 and the show was primarily about her and her sister. You were not getting paid at that point. Yep. Um, I don't, you probably haven't gotten to it in the book. I don't, I don't know, but.
00:27:05
Speaker
He kind on Jill's wedding day. I saw. Yeah. Okay. You saw that. Yeah. On the wedding day, Jim Bob, like they're running around, planning the wedding, doing the things, everything a bride has to do on her wedding day. And Jim Bob lays down a piece of paper and says, I need you to sign this quick. And she just like wrote her signature and ran to like, do whatever, get her makeup done, get her hair done, whatever that ended up being a contract that locked them into this. But they then had to fight her family to get out of.
00:27:35
Speaker
ah Yeah, or to get paid for and that was Jill and Jessa Who the spin-off show? Yeah Jill and Jessa counting and both of them Didn't get paid. Correct. I mean they both of them didn't get paid um their speculation in Jill's book that the after Jill and Derek called out The unfairness of that, Jim Bob kind of did a big payment to each adult child. Yeah, I saw that. Big-ish, it sounded like. Because none of the other kids have really come out talking about the payment stuff. And I think that's probably why he said, I'll give you whatever amount of money, but you got to keep your mouth shut. Let's drop it.
00:28:17
Speaker
Her book really lays out how Jim Bob's patriarchal views have led to the breakdown of his relationship with Jill and Derek and then their kids together. So his grandkids and it's really sad. Yeah, like she she says a lot like she misses her family. She was really close to her dad. Her dad picked Derek.
00:28:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I have seen that that. That is fair. I mean, it's extremely sad. I can see how it happened, obviously. Yeah, but yeah.
00:28:52
Speaker
I don't think Derek, I mean, Derek was is still very religious. He has some iffy beliefs that he has shared on social media, um but he wasn't a part of the IBLP or even really adjacent to it. Like he wasn't in a group that was near it. So when they met, he was ah he was on a mission, correct? Yeah. So they met somehow Jim Bob and him connected and became, quote, prayer partners. OK.
00:29:22
Speaker
um I think Derek may have reached out to him and was like, you know, I do all these mission strips. I know that aligns with your values. Can we pray together? OK. And that led to Jim Bob saying, hey, ah Jill, you should talk to this kid. OK.
00:29:36
Speaker
So since the show ended, since all of these things have happened, there's just been more weddings and babies born.
Life After Reality TV
00:29:42
Speaker
There are more Duggar kids married and moved out than there are left at home ah at this point. And, you you know, some of the adult kids have maintained a social media presence, um tried to monetize, I know,
00:29:55
Speaker
aye Joanna and Jana both had their own like family YouTube channels that they did different things, stuff like that. Um, and then other have just retreated to regain some privacy. Um, every now and then it'll be like, Oh, there now the Duggar family website says there's, I don't even know how many there are, but like there's 12 grandkids and yesterday it said 10. So like somebody had babies. Um, do you know if any of the kids went to college? ah Not to my knowledge. No.
00:30:27
Speaker
Um, they've a lot of them did training things after. Yeah. Like some of them, the boys mostly, uh, if any of the girls or women did any.
00:30:40
Speaker
uh, training or anything like that after they finished homeschool and and got their, they all have GEDs. So after that, I don't think any of the women or girls did unless it it was related to their wifely and motherly roles, like midwife work. John David's wife is a nurse. I don't know if she works anymore, but like when she was working outside of the home, when they met, um, so some of them, you know, dabble in working and, and.
00:31:10
Speaker
stuff. Um, but I think John David's wife, Abby is probably the most educated because she's a nurse. So she had to be. Okay. But yeah, they're the ones who want privacy. I think that's amazing for them and it makes me very happy. A lot of them have decided not to put their kids on any sort of social media. good Ginger actually for a while was showing her kids on the show and social media. And then suddenly there was a heat like there was a moment that changed. And the most you'll see of her kids is like the back of their heads.
00:31:45
Speaker
And yeah, I think good for them. Do we have any idea at this point, Jim Bob and Michelle's net worth? No. um It's considerably less than it was.
00:31:58
Speaker
I think his his philosophy of living debt free is probably saving them because their house is completely paid off. The kids are moving out. They're not paying as much as groceries, things like that. so like The expenses are probably going down. You said he was making up to $25 million per season for a little while. yeah that was the that That was a peak. i yeah Yeah, that was the height. um But it's you know, he they are supporting Anna Duggar and his and Josh's her and Josh's seven children. They live on their property. um I have to believe that Jim Bob paid for Josh's defense team. Legal. Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:39
Speaker
things like that. So they don't have as much coming in, obviously, because they don't have a show or anything. Right. And nobody would sponsor them. I can't imagine a company that would touch that with a 10 foot pole. That would be a that be a bad idea. So it's I know it's considerably less, but I don't think they're like destitute by any means or struggling. Yeah. um I think even when they had the height of their income, they were still pretty frugal. Okay. Yeah.
00:33:10
Speaker
That would make sense. Yeah, I think they probably have more money than me. But you don't have that big old house to maintain. no Exactly. So I think let's end there. all right ah Next episode, I alluded to some of the bigger scandals. We're going to kind of dive into those more um and that'll kind of set up another framework for when we get into the trial of Josh Duggar.
00:33:40
Speaker
I'm excited about that. Yeah. at That's going to be a lot. A lot of episodes on that one. Okay. All right. Well, thanks for listening. I am i enjoyed everything you had to teach me today. so Some of that information is getting out of my head and into yours. Yes.
00:33:59
Speaker
Now it'll start bo but we we both start analyzing and you bouncing back and forth with our ideas. Yeah, it's what we're doing with Micah. All right. Well, everybody, thank you so much for listening and we will talk again next week. Bye.