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Ruby Franke & Jodi Hildebrandt, Part 9
57 Plays17 days ago
How do all of these huge LDS-related true crime cases intersect? Let's talk about Visions of Glory, and what makes this book so dangerous for people looking for power within their religion.
Please note, our sound isn't great in this episode. We were able to record together! But we don't understand technology, so we went old-school and shared one mic. Sorry for the sound, but it was way more fun being together in the same room, so we're not THAT sorry :)
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
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Transcript
Introduction to Nikki and Aunt Joy
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I'm here with my Aunt Joy. We are two neurodivergent ladies who obsess about various topics. Joy is autistic and I have ADHD and we are letting our hyperfixations fly.
00:00:14
Speaker
Today we are fixating on Ruby Frankie.
00:00:27
Speaker
Welcome back, everybody. Just a quick heads up. We are recording together and we're not great at this because we get very used to our own setups. Yes. So we may talk over each other a little bit more.
00:00:39
Speaker
And the sound might not be the best or it'll shockingly be like better than ever. But it's fun this way. Exactly. So yeah, if our sound isn't the best this time,
00:00:52
Speaker
We would rather record together and have bad sound. All righty. What are we doing today?
Connecting Ruby Frankie with Other Notorious Figures
00:00:58
Speaker
right. So after last week, when we talked about Tim Ballard and Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell, I said when I was going to bring together why why they are linked with Ruby and specifically Jodi.
00:01:13
Speaker
And we're going to talk about the book Visions of Glory today. Before I start, i want to cite my sources. I didn't actually read the book. Visions of Glory is not one of my sources. um My sources are Devil in the Family, The Fall of Ruby Frankie, Law and Crime Network, Hidden True Crime, Mormon Stories, Salt Lake City Tribune, Mother Jones, Time Magazine, The Books Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakauer, My Story by Elizabeth Smart, and The House of My Mother by Sherry Frankie, and Wikipedia.
00:01:46
Speaker
So Visions of Glory. Visions of Glory. All right. Visions of Glory was published in 2017 and it was written by a man named John Pontius. It is the story of a man named Spencer.
00:01:58
Speaker
And pretty shortly after it was published, I believe it was revealed that quote, Spencer is a man named Tom Harris. Is John Pontius still alive? I think he is. I think he, I'm remembering correctly and I'm sorry. Go to listen to the Mormon
Exploring 'Visions of Glory' and Its Controversies
00:02:14
Speaker
stories.
00:02:14
Speaker
He got in some sort of discipline for the book, I think. but He's like an LDS member. i think he's still, oh, maybe he's not still alive. Just keep going I'm going to look it up. going stop saying things that I think are right.
00:02:29
Speaker
So this book is a series of near-death experiences and end times prophecies. Visions of Glory became this crazy book that is super important to the prepper community of the Mormon church. We've talked before about how prepping for the end times is kind of a tenet of the faith.
00:02:50
Speaker
And this book has really taken that to an 11. In the book, and but I'm going to start saying Tom Harris says, because it's his story, even though John Pontius technically wrote it.
00:03:02
Speaker
So in the book, Tom Harris um discusses evil spirits entering bodies And we have definitely talked about that with Ruby and Jodi and Lori and Chad.
00:03:12
Speaker
Can I side note here? Yeah, please. So John Pontius, people have loosely claimed he's been excommunicated from the church, but nothing concrete. Okay. And he was born, this is interesting, in Moscow, Idaho, which is where those multiple college students yeah were brutally slain. Yeah.
00:03:35
Speaker
so Oh, interesting. yeah I wonder if that has any ties to the Mormon church. but i'll Even loose. and like I don't think and don't want to say that. Crime is what we're talking about with Lori and Chad or stuff like that. But I just wonder if there's any connections.
00:03:51
Speaker
Well, you know if there is. All right.
The Eternal Core and God-Centric Therapy
00:03:57
Speaker
right So let's talk about don't even know what to call it. It's like a conference that was started by Tom Harris.
00:04:05
Speaker
It's called Eternal Core. It was also a podcast. I think it started as a podcast and then they made it like live speakers. Come see all these amazing people. And the goal is to bring God into the therapy practice created by Tom Harris.
00:04:20
Speaker
So right off the bat, this is this conference podcast, Jodi Hildebrandt and Tim Ballard both participated in. Okay. So Tom Harris is kind of like the top of the pyramid.
00:04:31
Speaker
If I'm. I think so. If we're talking, if we're like doomsday cults or MLMs. He's. Jody and Tom or Jody and Tim are his downline. Okay. Which kind of is.
00:04:44
Speaker
The, I think slogan is quote, exploring God-centric mental health. It's basically Tom Harrison's Harris. Oh my gosh. I can't remember now if it's Tom Harris or Harrison. So we're doing great.
00:04:56
Speaker
Well, I will tell you in the notes you have it written both ways. I'm sorry guys. Yeah. We're doing our best. It is Tom's mental health organization. So i'll I'll post this picture on social media, but it's this picture of, you know, advertising this conference.
00:05:12
Speaker
And it's got all of these big deal Mormon church leaders who are involved in different organizations. There's like different people involved with Operation Underground Railroad. There's different people with other campaigns.
00:05:26
Speaker
There's an LDS singer. But most glaringly, Jodi and Tim are both on this picture advertising it. This links into Lifestar. Okay, side note. It is Tom Harrison.
00:05:40
Speaker
Thank you. Tom, spelled with the H in it, though, which is cool. And Tom Harris is totally someone different. Isn't he like a host of something? don't know. He's a British parliament.
00:05:52
Speaker
gar about I mean, Tom, that's a great common name. he's right It's probably a lot of things. I don't know. So my apologies to the wrong one. I'm just going to say Tom. Tom. Tom. going to say Tom.
00:06:04
Speaker
Because the other thing we're going to do the entire time is we're talking about Tom and Tim Ballard. So I'm sorry, guys. It's going to be a nightmare. All right. Back to this. Talking about Lifestar. This is the list of LDS approved therapists.
00:06:17
Speaker
So way back forever ago, when we talked about Adam Steed, the way he got linked with Jodi was she was one of the approved therapists on this list. This comes out of eternal core.
00:06:30
Speaker
good Okay. In 2019, Tom and Jody were on a panel together at eternal core. And they started talking about things like, like the steps in like becoming therapized, I guess you validate your feelings.
00:06:46
Speaker
The validation of the feelings is an explanation of why your distortion is causing your feelings. So this is basically the start of truth and distortion. Yeah.
00:06:56
Speaker
Okay. It stems out of here. But yeah, read through because as much as the way Jodi conveys it sounds crazy, on a basic level, it actually kind of makes sense.
00:07:09
Speaker
but Yeah. yeah So this is like you you validate the feelings you have and then you and you find the explanation of why your distortion of the way you think is causing these feelings.
00:07:20
Speaker
And then you use your personal agency to be moved into truth. Okay. So I'm going to give an example. Yes. So it's a little personal.
00:07:33
Speaker
Nikki and I have a little bit of a disagreement on our little banner, right? but yeah All right. So I went in and changed it. And she got angry.
00:07:45
Speaker
But if you were really to look at the anger, what is it really? It's not what is it on deeper level. You were angry probably about me. You were angry because I was taking control of the channel and it was supposed to be ours.
00:07:58
Speaker
I actually don't think so. I guess, yeah. Because we didn't talk through it. right just so that yeah So you figured that out and then that was your truth. Is that how it was?
00:08:09
Speaker
Yes, I think so. Which is reasonable. It's the thing of like anger is a secondary emotion and there's always a emotion underneath that causes anger and you have to find that first layer to figure it out. Yeah.
00:08:21
Speaker
All right. Now we're
Tim Ballard's Legal Troubles and Prophetic Claims
00:08:22
Speaker
angry at each other. So again,
00:08:26
Speaker
so the goal is like to move therapy away from distortion and connected into truth. So they want therapists to be able to be like, and and if you watch Ruby Frankie documentary and heard the things that Jodi was actually saying,
00:08:40
Speaker
That's exactly what she's framing it as. But then what happens with Jodi is then distortion becomes everything she does not want to hear. Correct. No.
00:08:51
Speaker
It's whoever's in power decides what's truth and distortion. It's not like finding the the the root of the problem. It's I don't like what you're saying, so that's distortion. so you're in distortion yeah because you're disagreeing with me.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah. That was actually really enlightening to me, that little conversation. Yeah, that kind of makes it, that oh gosh, guys, you guys brought us to truth. Gosh. So now we're going back to Tim Ballard a bit.
00:09:16
Speaker
So last week we talked about the civil lawsuit that has been brought against Tim Ballard for sexual assaults. And reminder, Tim Ballard was the person who was the founder of Underground.
00:09:28
Speaker
Operation Underground Railroad. Which was supposed to be working with sex trafficking of minors from other countries. Right. The victim said that that she was told to read Visions of Glory and that Tim would be a prophet of the LDS Church and the President of the United States.
00:09:48
Speaker
He didn't run for Senate, but he did. He talked about it. Yeah. Yeah. He was seriously contemplating running for Senate in Utah. And I think he's still, what I think like he announced he was considering it after the allegations came out.
00:10:01
Speaker
So in addition to this, um Tim Ballard did ketamine treatments. And this was to like put him in a meditative state, which is also a thing in Visions of Glory. It's like when you're in meditative state is when you can learn things about yourself.
00:10:17
Speaker
like Guys, this book is a lot of gobbledygook, so please don't read it. But I'm going assume a lot of things about it, let's say. So it is a thing in the book of like meditation brings you closer to God. They call that sleeping. I know, right?
00:10:30
Speaker
It's the only way I can meditate. And it was through these ketamine treatments that he believed, Tim Ballard believed he was the second coming of Jesus.
00:10:41
Speaker
And in this meditative state he was in through the ketamine, he brought up Tom and visions of glory as why he thought like he's the second coming. Well, yeah. ah So there's also a close association of Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad with Tom.
Near-Death Experiences and Prophetic Power in Mormonism
00:10:59
Speaker
Tom was a chief consultant of Operation Underground Railroad. And like I said, the victim who was told that Tim would be a prophet and the president came from a vision that Tom had.
00:11:12
Speaker
Okay. Yep. we really should be hearing about Tom more. Yeah. And all these stories. i Yep. he's He's got his little fingers and everything. yeah Yeah.
00:11:24
Speaker
So there's a ton of the things that are in like the plot of Visions of Glory that are incorporated into Tom's therapy practice. In 2014, he wrote a letter to the Mormon church admitting that he was quote Spencer and apologizing for the things that were in the book.
00:11:43
Speaker
in order to save his Mormon membership. Like things, people started calling out the weirdness of the book and seeing people starting to kind of gravitate toward it and use it as like a religious text almost.
00:11:54
Speaker
So there was a kernel of truth that true Mormon doctrine. Yes. And then he took that kernel, made it popcorn. Made popcorn. And then that's where he was overstepping.
00:12:08
Speaker
Yeah. And giving these people ideas that then were outside Mormon doctrine. Right. And then people would take kernels from the book he had taken things from and then go further.
00:12:19
Speaker
The Mormon church threatened a disciplinary council against Tom, however, continued promoting him as a therapist. So now we're going to get into near-death experiences.
00:12:30
Speaker
We've talked a little bit about, this is a big deal in Mormon doctrine. Basically claiming a near-death experience in the church is like a power grab. People who have near-death experiences,
00:12:41
Speaker
are somehow by design closer to God. When you say near-death experience, I feel like what they're originally talking about was like when your heart stops and you're brought bath back to life kind of thing. Yeah.
00:12:58
Speaker
It'd be like the stories of somebody being like, I died and I saw myself on the operating table. But then I feel like people expanded it. Because, I mean, I remember something about Chad Dable. I don't remember the specifics, but like diving off a cliffside and hitting his head.
00:13:15
Speaker
Yeah. And like, I don't think there was any chance of him dying. Like he that would, yes, he'd certainly be hurt. But in his instance, it was just like, He rubbed his head and moved on. Yeah. I mean, I think so technically, i think that even that definition has been broadened. Yes.
00:13:33
Speaker
A lot. Yeah. Because like Chad Dables had this happen three or four times. Right. Like really. I mean, in ah in the true sense of like your heart stopping and then someone bringing you back through yeah CPR or shocking or whatever like that, where you are technically truly dead. Yeah. Heart has stopped and it's been restarted. So, yeah.
00:13:53
Speaker
So it seems that the most powerful people in the LDS church have some sort of near-death experience. It's believed that you have a more prophetic voice. And it's kind of, as I said, the power grab element, it's a way to like gain power because people are going to listen to you if they think you're closer to God.
00:14:11
Speaker
And basically the cycle of when people are doing this kind of power grab, somebody has a quote near-death experience which leads to a vision of some sort of second coming, which is the end times basically.
00:14:26
Speaker
And it like the near death experience rips the veil between you and God. And now you can see everything about everybody, which leads to knowing what's going to happen and you need to prep to prepare for it.
00:14:43
Speaker
So that's that thing. That's the cycle. Yeah. Yeah. But then this, again, this near death experience can be abused. Yes. So it's like the words you hear all the time in, in this is near death experience, vision, perfect.
00:14:58
Speaker
That's they, they're on top of each other. And when, when the veil is torn, you're more spiritually in tune with not just God, but everyone around you. You're able to sense everybody else's lightness and darkness.
00:15:13
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Church leadership really can't rebuke visions someone claims to have because the entire LDS faith is built on Joseph Smith having visions. Okay. So it's like if you say you're not having visions, then you're going to have your membership questioning.
00:15:28
Speaker
Well, if I'm not having a vision, did Joseph Smith have a vision or did this other leader have a vision? Okay. And the last thing you want in a high control group is anyone questioning the validity of what you're saying. The themes in Visions of Glory that we see will also be familiar.
00:15:44
Speaker
They are of light and dark people, good and evil people, and zombie and good souls.
Misuse of Spiritual Beliefs in Power Dynamics
00:15:50
Speaker
Okay. So the word zombie, I feel like gets tossed around a lot. Yeah.
00:15:55
Speaker
My understanding, I'm looking through this through the lens of Lori Vallow, who actually used the term zombie, is that Tylee Ryan had gone so far, quote, evil in her and Chad's view of like light and dark people that she couldn't be saved, which meant that she was a zombie, which meant Tylee was gone, her spirit was gone, and the body, Tylee's body, wasn't actually her.
00:16:23
Speaker
And the best thing to do when you're somebody you love is a zombie is to make it so that the body is no longer usable. So we've got the light and dark spectrum. Light is...
00:16:35
Speaker
Perfect. Wonderful. Beautiful. Best Mormon. Dark has got a lot of evil in them until you hit some kind of cliff again. Right. The zombie cliff. And then, yeah, you're all evil, right? And there's no taking you back.
00:16:49
Speaker
Yep. But again, abused to the point where then light and dark became who I, who doesn't get in our way or who's on our side versus who does.
00:17:00
Speaker
Exactly. impediment to what we want to do. Exactly. Tom was telling Tim Ballard, who was light and dark in Operation Underground Railroad, which to me says Tom was telling Tim Ballard who he could trust and who he couldn't and kind of puppeteering Tim Ballard.
00:17:20
Speaker
Apostles in the church have what's called the gift of discernment, which means that they know the sins that members are committing. And an apostle in this, the Mormon religion is actually ah true position.
00:17:34
Speaker
I believe so. Yeah. Yeah. That um I get confused about because like, it gets confused. They have like said the state president. And there's like, I think something in families, like the husband and the father is like the priest holder or something. Like there's a lot of terms that confuse me. So I'm sorry if I'm not correct. To me, I'm thinking of apostle, and this may be completely wrong as like in the Catholic church, like a deacon or something. don't Possibly. Yeah.
00:17:58
Speaker
That would make sense to me. So if you're spiritually weak, it's your fault that bad spirits enter you. When the bad spirits enter you, you lose the ability as yourself, the good, pure spirit to consent to anything.
00:18:13
Speaker
And if things, bad things happen to you, if somebody assaults you, or if you trip and fall and stub, I don't know, bash your knee, it's your fault because you were spiritually so weak. You let a demon in you.
00:18:28
Speaker
And when a demon's controlling you, you, you yourself can't consent to anything. Can't say yes or no. So it's kind of an excuse. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The victims of Tim Ballard.
00:18:40
Speaker
That was kind of, you know what mean? Like the victims of Tim Ballard then lost the ability to consent to to say yes or no to him. So if they were saying no, it wasn't them saying no. It was the spirits in them.
00:18:52
Speaker
Okay. Which makes a lot of sense. Sure. Well, I mean, does and doesn't. Visions of Glory also believes that the dead can help you. which we saw in Lori Vallow's statement in court about her sister coming back from the dead or coming in a vision to help her.
00:19:11
Speaker
Spirits who don't have a physical form can shift into any form, including taking the form of people to deceive the good people or the truth seekers. And it's really easy in this, you know, frame of thought to demonize children as evil spirits.
Spiritual Explanations for Child Behavior and Therapy
00:19:29
Speaker
Because their misbehaving isn't them. It's the evil spirits in them. I've always wondered about that. Like, why is it so much the children that adults? Okay. So a misbehaving child.
00:19:40
Speaker
Yeah. Because the goal in these perfect Mormon families are perfect Mormon children. Okay. So your goal is to make them, i guess, lighter to bring them on the spectrum from dark to light.
00:19:52
Speaker
Or, I mean, there's different ways of saying And for some parents, that's like, Of course you want your kids to ah learn to do the right thing right from wrong. For parents like Ruby, it's if my children are evil spirits, that reflects on her.
00:20:08
Speaker
And like subservience, like mean expect your children not to just be kind and right do the right things, but to be subservient to your ideals. Right. The goal of an evil spirit is permanent possession, making the actual real person leave the body completely.
00:20:25
Speaker
And disembodied evil spirits enter you when you're sinning. And when they're in you, they egg you on to keep sinning. Okay. So one sin won't do it, but continual will.
00:20:39
Speaker
And I think what makes the most sense to me to think of it through ah Chad Frankie, that he was just like a mischievous kid who did pranks. but And, but they saw it as like his eternal soul will be in trouble. Like the sin itself.
00:20:55
Speaker
Every time he pranks, another spirit can enter him. Okay. And that's what's encouraging him to make these choices. Okay. not It's not him being a teenager. Right.
00:21:05
Speaker
Okay. So let's talk about porn.
00:21:12
Speaker
There's a segue. So we've talked about this at length. LDS Church sees any pornography as an addiction. But I think...
00:21:23
Speaker
This is the easiest way, pornography and masturbation being a problem to keep these therapists in business. Yeah.
00:21:34
Speaker
They don't, they don't, they don't try to help people with child abuse or like sexual assault. Their bread and butter is your kids watching porn is evil. Yeah.
00:21:46
Speaker
And I feel like the definition of porn, ah again, hu is becomes a very loose definition. It can encompass a wide range material. Yeah, whatever your values are, if if it's a your values are to be more covered up, you see a shoulder of a woman that could be lustful and what's pornography to them.
00:22:09
Speaker
And since these are just normal human feelings, it's very easy to call people out then and basically, yes, say you're addicted, say you need to be sick.
00:22:20
Speaker
Exactly. And addressing the issues in the LDS church of sexual violence against women or child abuse or all of those things, that will empower victims to actually come forward and file more lawsuits against the church for the things that they have not stopped.
00:22:38
Speaker
Okay. Whereas, The people who adhere to like the purity culture, when you're raised thinking these things are bad, it's shameful to come forward.
00:22:48
Speaker
So people aren't going to come forward and be like, Jodi Hildebrandt hit me with a tire iron because I saw cleavage.
00:22:58
Speaker
But if a woman comes forward to their therapist and says, my husband is raping me and they do nothing about it, that opens up the church to a lawsuit.
00:23:10
Speaker
Okay. So we're going to keep people coming to therapy for this low low-hanging fruit, and we're not going to deal with the big things that actually matter. Okay. So Charles Vallow, according to Lori Vallow, was possessed with an evil spirit.
00:23:25
Speaker
And when she accused him of mistreatment of her, it wasn't him. It was, he was. And even had a name. Right. Ned.
00:23:36
Speaker
Yes. Ned. I forgot about Ned. Yes. The accusation is he was doing, looking at porn. He was doing these things and that opened himself to sin and that led him to mistreating her and needing to be dead.
00:23:50
Speaker
And yeah, that's the only solution. Or his own good. I will also say, I don't, I have not seen anything that suggests that he mistreated her whatsoever. So I just want to put that out there too. mean, I think it maybe possibly a person with a temper. Right.
00:24:04
Speaker
Right. But I didn't see even like control yeah stuff. Yeah. which we know Chad Daybell was very controlling of Tammy. The other thing in the church addiction is seen as selfishness. And but again, the the definition of addiction. Right.
00:24:18
Speaker
Right. It's seen. Yeah. It's definitely not seen as like, you know, substance abuse disorders, like something chemical is happening in your brain. And it's yeah. An addiction.
00:24:29
Speaker
It's not seen as like, Oh, you need medical help. You need to deal with this. It's like, you're selfish because you can't stop drinking. Or you're selfish because you're masturbating in your bedroom by yourself.
00:24:42
Speaker
And that's usually it's brought by an outside part, of course, right? Or somebody else's view on what you are addicted to or not. Right. Right. Someone's telling you what you're addicted to. You're not like recognizing an issue in yourself.
00:24:57
Speaker
So stronger spirits can take over the weaker spirits. The weak ones can be cast off, but others can enter still. This gets confusing. This gets confusing. Think about when Kevin Frankie was doing, quote, exorcisms on Jodi.
00:25:11
Speaker
Okay. He was trying to cast out the weaker spirits. But unless you're working on becoming more holy and closer to perfect, evil spirits can still enter, even if you're casting out some of them.
00:25:24
Speaker
It's like revolving door. It's interesting, then, that Kevin Frankie was given this... role because i feel like in a lot of ways he was not a highly respected outwardly i mean other people it didn't seem like in like within the church things in the religion so that's maybe it was to flatter him a bit or to manipulate him into failing um like jody could just be like yeah you got rid of one but 16 more came in now your wife has to sleep in my bed
00:26:01
Speaker
Uh-huh. So i think I think maybe initially when he was like the star of connections, it was to build him up. And then once she moved in, it was like- Because he was for a while. Didn't he call him like like resident exorcist or whatever? Yes, something like that.
00:26:14
Speaker
And then once it was time to get him out, I wonder if it was like, well, he's going to start failing at getting out these demons. Yeah, it's not working. Yes. So from all of this, we can surmise that Jodi's ultimate belief was like any mental health issues or like feelings are being in distortion.
00:26:33
Speaker
What I didn't know until I started doing more research was Tom trained Jodi and other therapists like her. And Tom was counseling some of the Operation Underground Railroad sex trafficking victims.
00:26:48
Speaker
This Tom, I just, like we've done so much research on trafficking and any kind of trafficking causes trauma just about. yeah yeah And can they you then imagine like this stupid big helicopter Hollywood rescue you're taken out, you're dropped into a country you don't know and now you're being told it's your fault because you're letting in the dark spirits?
00:27:10
Speaker
I mean... In a language you probably don't speak. Yes. Right. So you have nothing else. i mean, and a big part of trafficking, especially yeah out from outside the country, is somebody takes care of you.
00:27:25
Speaker
yeah Someone's there. They help you. they you know You grow a bond because they are providing you the things you need. Yeah. Until... you know, slowly it turns into a practice. Yeah. I don't even know what to. Yeah.
00:27:40
Speaker
I mean, that's the, yeah. The bond grows over time and this is like, Oh, you're just dropping you in. I'm going to tell you how, why you're so wrong. Yeah. So,
Religious Empowerment and Control
00:27:49
Speaker
yeah. So I guess with Tim Ballard, who's got this strong personality and I got you out of this situation. No, come here.
00:27:57
Speaker
We'll take care of you. Yeah. And, And this is how we'll get you into truth. All right. We're going to pivot a little bit to, I was going to say like the weird part of the whole thing, bananas, but this is like, this is, this one's a lot portals.
00:28:14
Speaker
All right. Now their portals are not part of normal. mormon I don't think like a typical LDS yeah believer believes like portals are real, but I don't know. That's the hard thing is like, I'm not,
00:28:27
Speaker
an LDS scholar. So i don't I don't really know what was taken from like the Book of Mormon and distorted into this stuff. like Who took parts of what to make it apply to what they wanted it. Do know what I mean?
00:28:45
Speaker
So I don't actually know for sure, but I don't know. I know we are actually recording this in a hotel room and you know there's always a Bible and a Book of Mormon.
00:28:56
Speaker
Right behind us. I might have to go searching. was like, you can, I'm not. I have to say when I'm thinking of like a typical Mormon person or LDS person, I think of the secret life Mormon wives.
00:29:11
Speaker
And here's why, like, I don't think they're regular people. I think they're like housewives, Bravo housewives people. But then I go to myself, like, would any of these like ladies who just want to be on Tik TOK and do their dances,
00:29:25
Speaker
thinking about portals. like Like, okay, if they're not, then I don't think it's Mormon, mainstream Mormon doctrine. I think those women believe mainstream Mormon doctrine will stop.
00:29:39
Speaker
and So that's my very deep comparison when I'm trying to think through these things. So, I mean, I know portals come up a lot with like Chad and Lori. Yeah. said Did they ever get in a portal and go somewhere? Chad said he did.
00:29:52
Speaker
Okay, but... Sorry. I can't remember. when nobody could see him. Yeah. I don't know about Lori, but Chad definitely. And she believed he did. So a portal is a means of transportation and information about people.
00:30:06
Speaker
It's basically where you get where you're supposed to be instantaneously. Like I said, Chad and Lori definitely believed in these. Tim Ballard was taught about these. I don't know his stance on it, but it makes sense to me that if he was taught about them and he's doing these big like around the world quote rescues.
00:30:26
Speaker
Maybe he's trying to get himself to a place that he is pure enough that he can just pop a portal into a brothel and grab a kid and bring him back. It's like a good band name.
00:30:38
Speaker
a Portal in a brothel. um so So again, a complete misuse of empowerment. Yeah. Yep. I can do this. Nobody's seen it, but I can do it. And you can't. So I'm this amazing person. up And Chad Dayball for looking like a goofball.
00:30:54
Speaker
know. He kind of was pretty good at manipulation. Well, and even if you think about like the beginning of the LDS church is Joseph so Smith found these gold, gold plates.
00:31:06
Speaker
Yeah. Nobody ever saw them. And, but if you don't believe me, you're, you're not listening to God. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's move on to the next. That's all I have say about portals. like know I don't, it's portals done, done.
00:31:19
Speaker
All right. So there is, um, basically kind of like a law, I believe like laid out in visions of glory. It's a, it's a bit of, I don't know. It feels like a self-defense almost type of thing, but put into a religious term.
00:31:33
Speaker
If an individual or a group threatened, threatened you, but they repented, you could let them live. But if an individual or group threatens you, threatens your life, you can kill them. Because you want people to grovel.
00:31:46
Speaker
Yes. Basically. Because if they don't repent, they're obviously taken over. They've already... They're working themselves toward the dark side.
00:31:59
Speaker
Yeah. And death is a blessing. Because if they're going dark, then they're freed from the torment of their reality. Oh, when you think about it, it makes so much sense how justification of peace.
00:32:11
Speaker
Chad had written that Tylee, he wrote somewhere that Tylee couldn't be saved and that she was too far gone to repent. And any any repentance she tried to do was fake, was a manipulation.
00:32:23
Speaker
This is part of the doctrine of blood atonement. Okay. We're going to get into this more later, but I'm going to bring it up now just because it makes sense in the and the terms of...
00:32:36
Speaker
the victims we're talking about. This was a doctrine from Brigham Young. So way back in the day, um if you have read the book or watched the miniseries under the banner of heaven, this is very clearly laid out what blood atonement is.
00:32:50
Speaker
And it's one of my favorite books. So I would highly, and the miniseries is great too. So I recommend both. Now, I don't know if you'll believe this or not, but Tom has the ability to tell if someone is repentant or not.
00:33:01
Speaker
That's amazing. That's amazing. He's a visionary. And he could see beyond the veil because he's had so many near-death experiences. So many. So i love that so many. Maybe be more careful, but know, right?
00:33:13
Speaker
All right. The next thing that matters is in the end times, spouses dying. So if, you know, if I died, my husband would be, would know that It is God ordained that he goes on. He has a mission from God. And somehow I was getting in the way of that.
00:33:33
Speaker
So end times is a bit confusing. Now that is from Mormon doctrine. Yes. But they're kind of, in just about any religion, there is an element of end times. Like it's revelation in the Bible. It's, you know, there's the second coming of Jesus will usher in the end of days. that Like there's elements of that. And I think every religion, my church doesn't tell me like,
00:33:56
Speaker
It's implied though. mistake That if Nate dies, I should carry on because there's a mission for me and I'm going abandon everything else. No, but basically it's, it's like saying what your spouse dies in some weird way. It's, it's a more positive, elevates you. It elevates you.
00:34:15
Speaker
And it's kind of a sign. Like why would God take away your spouse if there wasn't something bigger meant for you that you had to go do? So in Lori Vowlo Daybell's case, she had lost two husbands. So, wow.
00:34:29
Speaker
Yes. And, um yeah, Tammy Daybell. And two weeks later, he was married to Lori. Yep. Another one. Yep. God, they were good. They were good.
00:34:41
Speaker
That was kind of dumb. Losing a spouse is like a sign that the end times are near. Second coming is happening. and But the other thing is, this is like, this is crafting...
00:34:52
Speaker
Jesus into white Mormon Jesus. Like he's using a lot of white Mormon people. Yeah. ah You know, you know, he's white Mormon Jesus.
00:35:03
Speaker
White Mormon Jesus. You got it. So the question becomes for Chad and Lori specifically, like, did they really believe these things or is this like all giant ruse to eliminate their spouses and children and have this life together or a little bit of both?
00:35:17
Speaker
I think in, i mean, just my own personal opinion. I think in Lori's, From Lori's perspective, it was a little bit. It was. Plus, that, along with life insurance money, mixed in little bit.
00:35:31
Speaker
Yeah. I think Chad was manipulating because he was, i mean, he even said, I found this hot, rich woman. I mean, yeah. I think that was a little bit more his motivation.
00:35:43
Speaker
I'd say so. Yeah. i And Chad was getting all of this recognition. Like, he was trying to become this, like, Mormon leader. But I don't, you now thinking back, I don't get the feeling before this all happened that even him with his family, I mean, they were strict and they I mean, yeah, but I don't feel like this stuff was coming up in his normal life. Right. yeah Until he started going to like seminars and meeting hot women. Yep. I agree.
00:36:12
Speaker
And because I think he started as like the things he was writing, he was selling his fiction. Yeah. And then slowly it was like, I mean, these are my stories. totally not of them. Yeah. And they weren't great. Right. I mean, I was going to say his writing wasn't anything amazing.
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I think he was just at these conventions or whatever they are talking his books. Yeah. So just diving in a little bit more. I want to talk about specifically take a few minutes to talk about Lori's what Lori said at her sentencing from her first trial. She just got found guilty in the second trial that she was representing herself. But I'm not talking about that.
00:36:49
Speaker
talking about when she was sentenced. So this is why I think you're right. She said a lot of things about ah following these beliefs. And I do think we've talked a little bit about before. I think Joy just got the Book of Mormon out.
00:37:04
Speaker
and It is here. There isn't even a Bible. Oh, there's not a Bible. It's just the Book Mormon. So, yeah, we've talked about it before. We think Ruby and Lori are the same dynamic.
00:37:16
Speaker
And I think Ruby did become like a complete believer. Yeah. Yeah. I think two things can be true. Like she was always abusive and bad, but then with Jodi, she became cult member. Yeah. She wasn't, cause she didn't have much to get out of it as much as Lori.
00:37:32
Speaker
No. She wasn't trying to like, I think she got to the point that she thought she was trying, like she believed what she was doing. um And I think she probably still does. I don't think, I don't buy that. She doesn't necessarily.
00:37:46
Speaker
Okay. But let's talk about how Lori said to the court, when she was sentenced. um First, she started saying, Jesus knows that no murders happened in this case. She mentions the causes of deaths of like all the people were suicide, accidental suicide, overdoses.
00:38:02
Speaker
Like nobody was murdered. She didn't murder anybody. Chad didn't murder anybody. Alex didn't
Lori Vallow's Spiritual Claims and Legal Defense
00:38:07
Speaker
murder anybody. Then she goes on to talk about her near death experience when she died in the hospital, when she was giving birth to Tylee.
00:38:15
Speaker
And she said of in court on record, that this led to her having access to heaven and the spirit world and access to the lost loved ones. Can we go back one second, though, to the like the suit suicide overdose? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this probably maybe isn't a proper... This is maybe a hard discussion to have because it's about how maybe they actually...
00:38:41
Speaker
died. Yeah. The method that was used. um So one thing that was always, that that did come up was that Charles, that Lori was putting Xanax in Charles's smoothies.
00:38:56
Speaker
Yes. One way to die is ah just like alcohol, same thing happens with Xanax and a withdrawal from them can be deadly.
00:39:08
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. um Oh, i didn't even think about that. Yeah. There's like the delirium tremens. It is actually one of the, like one of the only addictions, physical addictions where a lot of them, you know, you don't feel good, but those are the two, I guess, physical addictions that could kill you.
00:39:25
Speaker
Oh, okay. I don't know. And then I was thinking. Or physical withdrawal. I'm sorry. Yeah. Physical withdrawal. Yeah. So if you didn't know you were taking them basically, and then suddenly someone stopped giving them to you. Yeah.
00:39:39
Speaker
You could just die from that. Okay. that It's like a bad death. It's like. Yeah. Yeah. But also, do you remember that Tammy Daybell, they said she was feeling really sleepy.
00:39:51
Speaker
Yes. Beforehand. Yeah. Yeah. So part of me wonders if they tried this with Tammy and then maybe it didn't work all the way. So we had to have secondary.
00:40:03
Speaker
Means. Alex come in or somebody. ah I also think, I think, I think, I don't know. i mean, I think Ty was drugged.
00:40:16
Speaker
I don't know if they tried to do specifically this with Ty or tried to overdose her. Yeah. I think also the same thing they tried to do with JJ, because I think they even said that JJ was on Xanax, which maybe I know they found, um we just looked this up because we couldn't remember, but the toxicology report wasn't,
00:40:36
Speaker
super clear because there was a lot of damage but they found ghb in jj's system but they couldn't like definitively say if it was like he was forced to take it or if it was something happening in the decomposition process or or what but well and i think you know was found with a bag over his head yeah So again, i think maybe he was being drugged too. I mean, maybe not overdosed, but being, was drugged.
00:41:03
Speaker
He was unconscious maybe, but not dead. And that's when the bag went over his head to finish. I will say, I hope they were drugged. I do believe that. I mean, that that doesn't take away the murder.
00:41:17
Speaker
Yeah. i for that I do on some level do believe it had to do with drugging and then maybe possibly from that point suffocation but yeah all right let's get back to making fun of lori um she so after she said in court that uh she had access to her lost loved one she called tammy daybell her friend oh she said in court she has spoken in with jesus and many angelic visitors and that while she mourns the loss of her loved ones she has seen them in the spirit realm and knows that they're the happiest they've ever been
00:41:53
Speaker
Lori said she was shown by Jesus how she would save the world, like from prison. And she kind of brought that up in um this last trial. She just had a recent trial um and talking about the other women in prison with her and how she was really helping to save them.
00:42:12
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. She said that Tylee has visited her and ah she, Tylee is happy and busy. which I think is interesting of like, we talked a bit about this, um talking through the book we're reading together, the Frankie kids cleaning.
00:42:33
Speaker
They to keep busy. Yeah. yeah likey yeah yeah There's something virtuous about ah producing production. I also think Colby Ryan, who is the one living child of Lori, fellow David, he absolutely,
00:42:48
Speaker
In one of their conversations that has not been many, but with his mother, the two of them, she asked, he in some way said he had a vision or saw Tylee.
00:43:02
Speaker
And I think what I probably meant was that like he had a dream. Yeah, yeah. But she wrote really kept pushing him and pushing him and pushing him on that. And I guess, yeah, really pushing that that is this is what happened. It's a sign, right, that Tylee's good and happy.
00:43:21
Speaker
um When I really think it could be kind of like wasn't having it. Like, okay, move on. But I mean, I'm thinking it was a dream. Yeah, yeah, I think so too.
00:43:32
Speaker
She said that Tylee suffered from physical pain her entire life and that she's out of pain now. that Tylee's body didn't work right. And she wonders if it was a complication from her near-death experience.
00:43:45
Speaker
She also added that Tylee had been sexually abused by her biological father from the age of three. And I think we've gotten some very loose confirmation of like some, some sort of abuse from Tylee and Colby's, or it's not Colby's biological father, biological father,
00:44:05
Speaker
that adopted Colby and Colby got the same last name, but Colby doesn't really talk about it. And I do think that when it worked, that Lori was able to get Tylee and Colby away from this man who also died.
00:44:20
Speaker
Yeah. That was what she thought she could do with Charles Vallow too, is accuse him of some sort of misconduct with Tylee. And get social security and possibly life insurance money at the booth.
00:44:34
Speaker
Yep. Lori said that family court had sent Tylee to visit her biological father against her will for 10 years. She said Tylee was in so much pain she had to stop going to school and get her GED.
00:44:46
Speaker
She was, they did say she had pancreatitis. Yes. Yeah. Which can be very painful. Yeah, certainly. And especially when you're a teenager, not really knowing how to manage that or your body's still growing, so they can't do some treatments perhaps or things like that.
00:45:00
Speaker
Lori said in this, this vision or dream that Tylee commanded her to stop worrying about her. Of course. Yes. She also said JJ visited and told her she didn't do anything wrong.
00:45:11
Speaker
She said that when she engaged with JJ, it was his adult spirit and that he is also busy, engaged, does jobs and very happy. So there's that, uh, very busy. Okay.
00:45:24
Speaker
very busy Lori said that Tammy visits frequently. She is busy helping her family and grandchildren. She called her, her quote, eternal friend.
00:45:35
Speaker
Although they never met in, they never met in life. There is I've heard talks of Chad Daybell had wanted to approach Tammy about polygamy.
00:45:49
Speaker
Oh, okay. Bringing Lori into the marriage. I don't think it was, he said Lori, but, and Tammy was like, Hard pass. Yeah, I can't quite see. just I can't see hard. Yes. So calling her her eternal friend suggests like spiritual polygamy. like Okay.
00:46:06
Speaker
There are rumors that Tim Ballard also encouraged his wife to pray about polygamy. Okay. And Lori said all she wants to do is to rest with Jesus.
00:46:17
Speaker
Okay. So that I think tells you, I think she is still a believer. I think so. I think so too. um Whether Chad Babel is or not, I don't know.
00:46:31
Speaker
um Or whether he ever really was. Yeah. I just think he was a manipulator. Yeah. Well, and while I do think Lori does believe this stuff, I still also think this was a means to an end. yeah Two things can be true. Two things can be true.
00:46:47
Speaker
All right. So let's pivot a little bit. We're going get away from visions of Lori.
Extreme Beliefs and Their Consequences
00:46:51
Speaker
I want to go into a little bit more about the blood atonement thing. um Because while this isn't, don't think this was in Visions of Glory, at really, like by name, it is a doctrine that is seen in extremist Mormon communities even.
00:47:06
Speaker
And I think it is related. So, blood atonement is a sinner must be killed to atone for eternal sin. And bloodshed is the offering for atonement.
00:47:22
Speaker
So each eternal sin, the where, what, who defines that? That's a great question.
00:47:31
Speaker
The person causing the atonement, causing the bloodshed, I don't know. um I feel like it's back to like the light and dark thing. And then like Chad Daybell had the scale of light to dark.
00:47:43
Speaker
So perhaps it's kind of like a zombie. Yeah, if you're a zombie level or if you're getting in the way of the mission, um intentionally with malice and evil intentions.
00:47:57
Speaker
um So mainstream Mormonism says this doctrine never existed or was only theoretical. However, as we said earlier, Brigham Young promoted this doctrine. So in under blood atonement, this dis belief, sinners should voluntarily choose this.
00:48:14
Speaker
If you feel like you're you're too far gone. And I think that does that get into suicide? Possibly. Yeah. Okay. but it can be enforced by others or the government, meaning like death penalty. Okay.
00:48:29
Speaker
It took me second there. But be by others is important. That's called murder. I'm 100. one hundred I'm completely opposed to death penalty.
00:48:40
Speaker
So like when I say this, I dont don't want to sound like I'm pro like government murder, but um at least in like a death penalty trial, There's a trial.
00:48:54
Speaker
And like a jury of your peers makes decisions. It's not like Uncle Joe. At least in the old days. At least the old days. We'll see what happens in the future with your government.
00:49:06
Speaker
However, especially in Utah, blood atonement has been used in capital murder cases. Prosecutors have brought up blood atonement. So let's keep that in mind. I want to talk about a couple of like outlier cases that aren't directly related to visions of glory, aren't directly related to Tim Ballard, Lori, Chad, Ruby and Jodi, but all have bits of them.
00:49:29
Speaker
All right. So the first one I want to talk about is pretty recent and it's so recent. I forgot. This was late 2023, a teenager named Blaise Thibodeau who was 16 at the time was taken, went missing.
00:49:43
Speaker
ah He was found December, 2023 Alaska. in a last yeah At the Canadian border. Okay. Robert St. Do we know where he's from?
00:49:54
Speaker
He was taken from his dad's, his parents were divorced, taken from his dad's home in Arizona. Okay. you know And he was first brought to Idaho and where then the people who took him took off trying to go to Canada. I don't know.
00:50:09
Speaker
By way of Alaska, I guess. um So he was found with his mother, Spring Thibodeau, And his uncle, his mother's brother, Brooke Hale.
00:50:24
Speaker
Oh my gosh. With very kind of hippy-dippy parents. Wow. And his sister, Abigail. Spring and her brother, Brooke, were another, quote, doomsday pairing. Kind of how late they call Lori doomsday mom.
00:50:38
Speaker
But it's brother and sister again. It's brother and sister. Yep. Very, very Lori Alex. Brooke specifically had writings because love their journaling. Yeah, yeah. um writing that Blaze, the teenager, hey had a key and important role in ushering in the second coming.
00:50:57
Speaker
Okay. They were prepping. huh They started in error in Idaho, where it's not super cold, where they lived, buying winter gear, buying tents, buying things to like last the winter in the woods of Canada, I guess.
00:51:12
Speaker
um And Blaze very much resisted his mother's beliefs. Okay. Okay. So he had like a Tylee who, and I don't know much about the sister. I think she was also like, I don't think maybe they didn't have the same pilot. I don't know.
00:51:28
Speaker
The sister's not like part of this. Yeah. I don't know. She could have been manipulated. You know, it could have been more like a Chad Franklin thing. um But so he was found. It ended good.
00:51:39
Speaker
It ended. He was found alive. He was found alive. He was fine physically. I'm sorry. Was he with his mother? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Mother and uncle took him like, kidde okay. But his, I'm assuming his father had custody.
00:51:51
Speaker
And then once he realized he was missing, he also filed a restraining order or something like that on behalf of his son that it's like, now it's even more of a crime that he's with her. Yeah. So that's once, I mean, that could have gone the same way. Yeah.
00:52:06
Speaker
And thank God, I guess, better outcome. Yeah. I want to talk next about ah a gentleman named Maurice Harper. This happened September, 2023.
00:52:16
Speaker
He was Utah based therapist and life coach. And his specialty was treating satanic temptations.
00:52:26
Speaker
So he was accused by a former patient of forcing her to the ground, dragging her around, preventing her from breathing, slamming her against an office door and preventing her from leaving the room.
00:52:38
Speaker
encouraging her to watch pornography with him, telling her he needed to teach her about sex, creating a fake online dating profile of her, and posing as her to talk to men.
00:52:51
Speaker
These were all means of exercising demons from her. He wasn't even being subtle. Nope. um Her injuries included a broken thumb, black eyes, knee injuries, and a neck injury that left her believing she was going to die. Oh my gosh.
00:53:07
Speaker
He would lay on top of her after sessions to, quote, comfort her. Weird. Uh-huh. She went to him for treatment of PTSD and other mental health disorders from childhood abuse.
00:53:20
Speaker
So if we're thinking back on Tom's stuff, that childhood abuse was her fault. yeah Yeah. Her PTSD now was somehow her fault. And she saw him for nine years. Oh, my God. It's basically an abusive relationship. Like, he isolated her and Eventually, like she was coercion of believing she was possessed.
00:53:38
Speaker
Yeah. Especially if it had started at such a young age. Yeah. He called their relationship a friendship, even though he billed for therapy. He groomed and billed. In court, he admitted that he wasn't trained to handle her conditions, didn't formally assess her, never provided a treatment plan and didn't take notes.
00:53:57
Speaker
mean, so again, these therapists, what what are the criteria for being ah therapist? It's a great question because he was he was recommended by the church too. I think he was on that list. After she came forward, other patients alleged abuse.
00:54:09
Speaker
They were sent to him by their LDS bishops and they were seeking help with trauma and pornography addiction. Better way to treat pornography addiction than to make her watch pornography.
00:54:21
Speaker
All right.
Fanaticism and Its Dangers
00:54:22
Speaker
next Next little shallow dive is the Lafferty brothers. This is told in the book. Their story is told in the book on under the banner of heaven that I talked about before.
00:54:33
Speaker
was made into a miniseries with Andrew Garfield. And it's so good. um It's awful. It's pretty awful. Yeah. Brothers Ron and Dan Lafferty murdered their brother Alan's wife, Brenda, and their 15-month-old daughter.
00:54:50
Speaker
You know how it goes with Inmus. Yep. It's tough. Ron had proclaimed himself to be a prophet. Ron and Dan had been excommunicated a year before the murders.
00:55:02
Speaker
Ron claimed that he had received a vision from God to remove people who got in the way of their mission to create their fundamentalist sect of Mormonism mainstream.
00:55:13
Speaker
Okay. The blood atonement was to make Brenda atone for her sins. What was her sin, you ask? Yes. It was not wanting her husband to follow his brothers into this fundamentalist wackadoo.
00:55:28
Speaker
Okay. Ron planned more murders of the other people, quote, getting in the way of their mission, but fled after murdering Brenda and the baby. Just like, fleet.
00:55:38
Speaker
You know what mean? You don't need to murder. Just say, I like i want a divorce. and yeah um From an article published in the Salt Lake Tribune June 5th, 2022, this was, think, like right as the miniseries came out, by Palak J. Swalb.
00:55:56
Speaker
entitled In the Stories of the Lafferty Women, These Mormon Women See Themselves. The author wrote Community Breeds Violence in Men, which is then approved under the doctrine of blood atonement. So lastly, i want to talk about Brian David Mitchell.
00:56:11
Speaker
This is the man, along with his wife, Wanda Barzee, who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart in June 2002, when she was only 14 years old. She was gone for nine months.
00:56:23
Speaker
She was abducted and forced to live in the woods, and spiritually married, raped, forced to look at pornographic images again, forced to drink alcohol and take drugs, starved and shackled to a tree.
00:56:36
Speaker
This was in Utah also. Yep. Was it Salt Lake? I think it was because they, her family even still is like a very prominent Mormon family. Brian David Mitchell called himself a prophet.
00:56:48
Speaker
He claimed he was called to take seven virginal wives so he could prepare for the end of the world. Was this, was she number one? Yep. Okay.
00:56:59
Speaker
And I think she said that he spoke about her little sister. Oh gosh. Yeah. And that would have been another quote wife. Mitchell's father claimed to be Christ himself and that he had visions and he wrote a 900 page manuscript.
00:57:13
Speaker
Because again, they love to write. um And again, just a reminder that the personal revelation aspect of Mormonism is very important and prophecy can tie in with polygamy and blood atonement. It can justify things maybe you want to do.
00:57:32
Speaker
Yeah. I don't think he, I don't think this man kidnapped Elizabeth Smart because he was preparing for the end of the world. I think he kidnapped Elizabeth Smart because he wanted to. And honestly, that I mean, it's the same in every case.
00:57:43
Speaker
Yeah. Every one these. Now, ah you know, we we don't want to, I mean, there are LDS members who certainly, like we're not demonizing anybody who's just like a believer in the in the Mormon faith, we're just like good regular people. Absolutely not.
00:57:58
Speaker
These are the people who recognize the power that can be ah obtained in manipulation. Yeah. Yeah. So yes. Thank you for saying that again. Cause I do. but keep repeating Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:12
Speaker
I do think the structure of yeah the LDS church lends itself to abuse. And there are things internally at the higher levels of the institution that they need to deal with. Yeah.
00:58:24
Speaker
But I'm like, regular people who are good people, whatever. like Like, just have your faith. And it happens in every religion. There's always the outliers.
00:58:36
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. So that is it for me and Jodi. All right. So... I hope you enjoyed this one. i hope our sound wasn't too bad, yeah but it was really fun recording together. Yeah, it was.
00:58:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's it. We are going to, have some other things we want to do with like Sherry's book and stuff like that. We don't know if we'll, we'll probably release it as podcast. We'll probably hear more, but we are going to figure out another series and I'm not going to say anything because I keep saying It's going be a certain amount of episodes long and what series I want to do next.
00:59:11
Speaker
And then it know nothing happens. I'm always wrong. So we're going to do something. And it might just be reading this book ah more of Mormon out loud. It will not be reading the book of Mormon out loud.
00:59:22
Speaker
All right. Well, thank you, everybody. We'll talk to you soon. Bye.