Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Ruby Franke & Jodi Hildebrandt, Part 7
45 Plays2 days ago
Join us for a discussion on the final episode of the Hulu docuseries Devil in the Family: The Fall of Ruby Franke. We talk about our feelings for Kevin Franke, the responsibility of the church, and prepare for the wackadoo next episodes.
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Fixate Today, Gone Tomorrow'
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today, Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki, and I'm here with my Aunt Joy. We are two neurodivergent ladies who obsess about various topics. Joy is autistic, and I have ADHD, and we are letting our hyperfixations fly.
Discussing 'The Devil in the Family' Episode 3: 'Truth'
00:00:14
Speaker
Today, we are fixating on Ruby Frankie.
00:00:27
Speaker
Welcome back. We are... Wrapping up the docuseries, the Devil in the Family, the Fall of Ruby Frankie. um In this episode, we're talking about episode three called Truth.
00:00:39
Speaker
A couple things before we start. I mentioned last week that our Internet's been a little wonky. Just going to reiterate that for this episode. My apologies if I sound like a robot again.
Sources and Technical Issues
00:00:50
Speaker
or if there's any weird cut things that we don't know about until we get to the editing point. And in which case it's just going to be posted how it is. Before again, before we dive in, I'm going to mention our sources.
00:01:04
Speaker
Primary source is obviously the docuseries. I said this last week also, but um a lot of the sources I used for the subsequent episodes, some of the stuff is going to trickle into what we talk about today. So just want to mention them.
00:01:19
Speaker
I used Law and Crime Network, Hidden True Crime, Mormon Stories, Someplace Underneath, The Salt Lake City Tribune, Mother Jones, Time Magazine, The Books Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakauer, My Story by Elizabeth Smart, and The House of My Mother by Sherry Franke.
00:01:42
Speaker
And I used Wikipedia. All right. I'm ready to get into it.
Police Search and Jodi's Home Video
00:01:45
Speaker
So this episode opens with the police search at Jodi's home. um I think it's the video of like her on the phone with her lawyer and then pulling her out of the house and being like, you're not allowed to touch me.
00:01:58
Speaker
cake Through that door that's like ridiculously big. Yeah. I had forgotten about the massive door and it brought me a lot of joy to be able to make fun of it again.
00:02:10
Speaker
oh my gosh. That thing had to cost $20,000. That was insane. that was insane But little did she know the entire world was going to see it. Exactly. after their money Exactly.
00:02:23
Speaker
So at this time, Kevin just is like a broken man recounting this part
Kevin's Struggle and Ruby's Disturbing Control
00:02:28
Speaker
of the story. He just seems like this is where I'm like, he I don't think he takes enough accountability, but he knows this is bad.
00:02:36
Speaker
And this has changed who he is, I feel like, like the things he's about to talk about. But it still took him a long time, even as this was happening, to wrap his brain if about what was on. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:02:49
Speaker
And I think at the time of this docuseries, he still didn't completely accept a lot of it. So then we cut to a video. This video, like... This video haunted me. I thought about this clip that they showed for days.
00:03:06
Speaker
And it's a video of Ruby going over to like their fireplace and she picks up this bell and rings a bell. And the four kids like saunter down the stairs. They're like in their pajamas. They're wrapped in blankets.
00:03:18
Speaker
And it's quiet. It's just silent. They're like slowly just coming down the stairs like they'd just been beckoned by this bell. And they are, it's like they're downtrodden. They're like beaten down. They just have to do whatever she says.
00:03:37
Speaker
And there's like no joy. There's no, it's just like the silence of them coming down the stairs. Like, ugh. Devoid of emotion at that point. Yeah. So um in one of the I think it's this video also, Ruby says, quote, your woke child is a walking zombie and you have the opportunity to wake the zombie up.
00:03:58
Speaker
We also heard the term zombie with Lori and Chad. So it's just another interesting crossover thing that I will mention for later. Is it anywhere in the Book of Mormon do they use the word zombie?
00:04:13
Speaker
Not in the Book of Mormon. um There is stuff about like being awake and like being dead to yourself and alive to God, like type of language. But and we'll talk about this in a couple episodes. But there's this wackadoo book that uses this language that a lot.
00:04:31
Speaker
There's a lot of overlap in the people ah with these big cases that I've read this book. And he uses the term zombie on this same video.
Kevin's Compliance and Prioritization of Ruby
00:04:40
Speaker
Ruby is demanding the kids sit and watch a video of Jodi. And I forgot about this part, but she tells one of them to like, she's like getting closer, getting closer. I want them to see you.
00:04:50
Speaker
And it's like, she wants the people on the video to see that all of her, the four kids are all paying attention. And she's such a good mom. She has all of her kids watching Jodi. Yeah. Now, at this point, right, in the story, Kevin's gone. Kevin in and Chad are no longer in the house.
00:05:08
Speaker
Right. And Sherry's been basically banished as well. Like she's been cut off. So um the neighbors say at this time that kids were just absolutely withdrawn and joyless. They would see them doing their chores completely silently.
00:05:22
Speaker
One neighbor asked where Kevin was. Like, I just haven't seen in a while. What's he up to? And she told that neighbor that every marriage should have a separation. And that's why Kevin and Chad left. She also said, like, it could be a month. It could be years. But every marriage needs a separation.
00:05:39
Speaker
And the neighbors were waiting for Kevin to come home and rescue his children. Like, where is this guy? As for Kevin... The no contact separation terrified him, not for his kids, but about losing Ruby.
00:05:54
Speaker
he said, quote, I was 1000% compliant by that point. I was going to support her over all my children, period. And somehow i had to convince Jodi that I was ready to go back to Ruby.
00:06:07
Speaker
just have such a hard time understanding this mentality. I mean, I'm all about my husband, but once I had a child for the rest of my life, I knew that no matter what, that child was going to be the most important thing in my life above all else.
00:06:24
Speaker
And there is a difference between, like, your child needs to be protected. Mm-hmm. Your wife is an adult who, like, sure, like, yes, like, families take care of each other, husbands and wife protects each other. but Right. But your adult, the adult in the situation versus the kids in the situation, like You protect your kids.
00:06:45
Speaker
I would be upset with my husband if he was like, if something happened and he like saved me and not the kids. like Sure.
00:06:54
Speaker
um So at this time, Kevin had like completely become a hermit. ah There was radio silence from everyone except for that weekly men's group that he was still being blamed and beaten down, which in terms of if we're talking high control groups again,
00:07:11
Speaker
This is a brainwashing tactic. So he's in this like echo chamber of how terrible
Chad's Conflict and Desire for Approval
00:07:16
Speaker
he is. And so it just causes him to retreat more. And that part of it, I, you know, I can recognize the cult tactics that are being used.
00:07:29
Speaker
have a difficult time. Anybody turning their back on their kids. so So Chad had moved into an apartment at this time. He was still having weekly calls with Jodi.
00:07:39
Speaker
He said he felt controlled by her, but also loved her and trusted her. And like his life's mission was to make Ruby and Jodi proud of him. It just, ugh. I don't know how this kid was... By now he was definitely paying for his own therapy.
00:07:55
Speaker
He was paying for everything. I don't know how this kid was making... No. Yeah. I don't know how he was. know. make I know. Sherry texted her dad from while she was at college ah about a month after being disowned.
00:08:07
Speaker
And he like heart reacted the message, but then unheart reacted it and blocked her.
Kevin's Guilt and Children's Trauma
00:08:14
Speaker
And this is when the filmmakers asked Kevin why he didn't stand up and stop it.
00:08:19
Speaker
And he said, quote, I know. And if I dwell on that question, it eats me alive. Well, it should. ah It should. And I believe it. um As somebody who is very good at ignoring my trauma that I have to deal with, understand that answer.
00:08:35
Speaker
But the trauma I have to deal with didn't put anyone in danger. And again, like he he is teaching at the university that Sherry is attending every day.
00:08:48
Speaker
So physically, they're in the same vicinity. Yep. And so. I understand the no contact, but at
Ruby's Neglect and Neighbor's Concerns
00:08:56
Speaker
least with the two older kids who are now on their own and effectively been disowned, how that's where I can't even understand it at all. Yeah.
00:09:08
Speaker
Yeah. And I would even, i would even give him grace for Reaching out to Chad, who was was deeply brainwashed. And if Chad said, I don't want to talk to you. Him being like, you're an adult.
00:09:24
Speaker
But then you've got Sherry reaching out saying, I want to talk to you. And being turned away. Yeah. um So through all of this, Ruby is still posting videos. And neighbors were watching them because they didn't understand what was happening.
00:09:39
Speaker
And they said, you know, each video was getting worse and worse for the kids. Okay, so at this point, were the kids still in them? Yeah. Elle video was them.
00:09:50
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. cause i So she hadn't switched over to... Not fully. Okay. It was getting there, though. The neighbors said that they saw less and less of Ruby around the neighborhood, and there were more videos in St. George where Jodi lived. That's where her house was.
00:10:06
Speaker
um The neighbors started noticing that the Ruby's car would be gone for days. Okay. And they realized that the kids were home alone, the four minor children. And neighbors would see them from their window and not know what to do.
00:10:21
Speaker
And Sherry would text her neighbors and saying how scared she was. And St. George is like hours away. Yeah, I think it's like three hours or something at least. Maybe five. I don't know.
00:10:33
Speaker
Far enough away. Several hours. Yes. So on September 18th, 2022, Sherry called 911 asking for a welfare check on the kids.
00:10:44
Speaker
When neighbors noticed police were there, they came out and spoke as witnesses. Police tried to knock on the door and no one would answer. And the police couldn't go in because a judge wouldn't sign off on a warrant.
00:10:58
Speaker
So they legally couldn't go in the house. Neighbors were... you know, like text, like blowing up Kevin's phone and he had blocked all of them. And at this point, the neighbors believed he was brainwashed.
00:11:10
Speaker
And I think they believe this instead of like, instead of like he was complicit at this point because they had built that relationship with him that they didn't with Ruby. Like they all got to know him and liked him and were involved in the connections group that was getting weirder and weirder.
00:11:26
Speaker
yeah After that 911 call and um CPS went to, I assume it was the welfare check. plea That was not kept anonymous from Ruby. like She knew.
00:11:39
Speaker
no ah you Okay. okay She didn't know it was from Sherry? or shery pet i think she I think she knew. No, I think she did. i think she did know. From Sherry or through the authorities? Yeah, I don't know.
00:11:50
Speaker
I just thought. But i don't I don't know for sure. I don't know why know that. I'm guessing through authorities because she wouldn't talk to Sherry. It seems like something that. So I'm guessing it was through or the authorities, but know. Should have been kept private. in I was just surprised.
00:12:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think so, too. Multiple neighbors were contacting the Department of Children and Family Services who said that it they required physical evidence to intervene.
00:12:16
Speaker
And after that 911 call, the kids didn't play outside anymore. And one of the neighbors, this was heartbreaking, too. One of the neighbors said that she wishes she would have lied to DCFS and said, yeah, I saw the kids getting hit just to start an investigation.
00:12:32
Speaker
And even though that's probably like filing a false report or something, like, I don't know. I'd take the consequence of like the legal consequence of that. So that that part was tough.
00:12:45
Speaker
And how much was that picture perfect view of the neighborhood in their home influencing the fact yeah yeah that they were not going in? You know what i mean? Like it did yeah it didn't look like a home where you would think children were being abused.
Signs of Abuse and Police Involvement
00:13:02
Speaker
and in this basic perfect neighborhood absolutely so at this point there's an ominous 10 months later on the screen like black with white writing and we are back to the august 30th 2023 video of the youngest boy ringing the doorbell of the neighbors to get help.
00:13:21
Speaker
Again, I've said before, I'll say it again, that man crying in the woman in mom mode just wrecks me. And it... and The entire thing is just... It just makes me happy that there are good It's just devastating.
00:13:33
Speaker
They found good people. There are images of the boy's wounds again. i just forgot how thin he was. An officer said that he could see the tendons in the front and back of his ankles.
00:13:46
Speaker
He had been tied up and had handcuffs on. And he said it had been over a month since he had seen his little sister, but that he heard her in the house, but they were kept separate.
00:13:59
Speaker
And i my brain immediately went to what he heard in the house from her was probably screams. Yeah, I didn't think about it that way, but you're right. Yeah. So we're back at body cam footage of the police searching Jodi's home.
00:14:14
Speaker
They're going through every door, closet, cabinet. Eventually, they find the safe in the basement. However, before we explore the safe, um an officer enters a bedroom that has this like huge attached bathroom and closet.
00:14:29
Speaker
And they find the little girl in the middle of the floor of this huge empty closet. The officer said she looked like a young boy because her head had been shaved. She wouldn't talk, but she acknowledged that she's scared.
00:14:44
Speaker
And he just sat with her and stayed there. I think he stayed there with her for like three hours and just sat there. Yeah. It was a long time before she would even speak at all.
00:14:55
Speaker
They ended up like bringing her pizza and, and and she, and I think she was, ah she she was hungry enough that she did reach out and eat. Yep. Yeah. She ate like a pizza and a half or something.
00:15:09
Speaker
Yeah. I do think, you know, a lot of times in these, like, and in any case, really, like, police and authorities can can get it wrong frequently. um But I think it's worth acknowledging that the other authorities with this particular officer recognized the need for him to just sit.
00:15:29
Speaker
You know, there there was no, like, get up and help us. i You're right. You could... Yeah. Yeah. Or let's, or even let's grab her and get her medical care immediately. At this point, they realized psychologically that she needed yeah that safety.
00:15:45
Speaker
Yeah, that was what she needed. She needed to come out on her own or they were going to make it worse. And I just appreciate that everybody there recognized that and allowed this one officer to be like, OK, this is he's going to make he's going to become the safe person.
00:15:57
Speaker
Sherry says that they the filmmakers asked Sherry like what she remembers of this day and she doesn't really remember it. ah Yeah, she basically kind of blocked everything out. It probably was such a whirlwind also.
00:16:11
Speaker
Kevin, for his part at that time, said that there had been no communication with his family in over a year. i mean, it must have been completely confusing for them. I mean, for Sherry, wouldn you know not to remember a lot. the yeah I mean, they had no idea. There was no context.
00:16:24
Speaker
And I don't even think you can't even imagine that your mother could even come close to doing these things to your siblings. I mean,
00:16:37
Speaker
Yeah. I just think back to like, they had nothing. They had no idea this was going on. I mean, maybe maybe an inclination that things were not going well, that there are problems, but I just can't even.
00:16:51
Speaker
imagine what it would be like to get a call explaining. Yeah. Just a first part, even though simple explanation of what's going on would be crazy. Horrifying.
00:17:03
Speaker
Yeah.
Ruby's Delusions and Manipulation
00:17:04
Speaker
So on this day, Ruby, after not speaking to Kevin for a year, called him. And this was like, this just pissed me off, but on his, like her contact date,
00:17:18
Speaker
It pops up as Ruby with a heart emoji. And like, that's still how she was in his phone. Love that woman. And he said he was so grateful to be talking to her.
00:17:30
Speaker
He said, Ruby said, quote, I have some explaining to do. Yes, you do. She said that the younger two kids were demonically possessed. She said that the kids had confessed this to her.
00:17:44
Speaker
And said that their son, their youngest son right now, was lying to the police. So she really believed this stuff. She believed it in her heart, even as as authorities are there to take the children away.
00:17:58
Speaker
That's amazing. I think so. Yeah, I do think so. um And I hope that doesn't come off as like I'm excusing any of her behavior, because I'm certainly not. No. um If you have any unchecked mental health issues...
00:18:12
Speaker
ah That is your job. ah One of my favorite quotes is mental health is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. And if she made it almost 40 years without like discussing depression or anything like that.
00:18:29
Speaker
And so i I don't say that to take any of the blame off of her. Yeah. She did these horrible things to her kids. That's it. And as a father, what are you even, what?
00:18:41
Speaker
You know, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. My children are demonically possessed? Wait a minute. Where'd this come from? Yeah. And to this also, like i I am not defending Kevin right now, but I do understand how it is easier sometimes to believe what you're hearing than to do the work of figuring out what's true.
00:19:03
Speaker
time And he's so wrapped up in just wanting to save his marriage. I can kind of understand how it's like, okay, yeah, our kid's lying to the police. I'll go put a stop to it.
00:19:13
Speaker
That's a lot easier to accept than the woman I'm pining for, have thought nothing else of for a year. did this have a lot of lust yeah a lot of lust um so in that vein she ruby tells kevin that this was his chance to redeem himself by picking the kids up and bringing them back home and all he heard was i'll go get the kids from the police station and i get to go back home so many i think the manipulation is yeah unbelievable
00:19:50
Speaker
Now, I will say, I think she knew. This is where, like, the the thing of, like, if there's mental health stuff and she's being taken advantage of, which I do think Jodi took advantage of her, she's also knowingly manipulating.
00:20:04
Speaker
Like, she knows what she's doing in that sense. Like, she knows she's in deep trouble. And if she can get Kevin on her side, then great. Yep. So we go back to um the police looking at the safe.
00:20:18
Speaker
And there's a whole thing. We talked so much about this. This body cam footage of trying to like Jodi's calling and saying, I don't know this, the combination of the safe. Like they told me and I forgot it. I never had to use it. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:20:32
Speaker
Lieutenant tried the code one, two, three, four, five, six. And the safe popped open. Yeah, and for those of you who did not see this, when we say safe, it was like a safe room. so So this, like a vault, it was like a vault door. Yeah.
00:20:50
Speaker
Then they didn't know what was behind it, essentially, but right obviously looked ominous. Yep. So they, you know, did that really hard combination to open the safe.
00:21:02
Speaker
And they were horrified to find rope, handcuffs, gauze, that cayenne pepper, honey paste, duct tape, bloody sheets.
00:21:13
Speaker
like You know, they found all that in the safe. So at this point, they realized, you know, they realized upon seeing the children, but now they're like, this is next level bad. And we don't know where the two middle kids are.
00:21:27
Speaker
They're still missing the two middle children. It became evident that the children had been, at least, ah or somebody had been held in this, this safe room.
Middle Children and Pam Boucher's Involvement
00:21:36
Speaker
Yep. At the same time in, uh, now I can't remember where the Frankies lived, but at the Frankie home, the police ended up breaking the door down to that house and it was completely empty. There was no one there.
00:21:49
Speaker
Eventually the two girls were found at the home of one of Ruby and Jodi's friends. The docuseries, I wish the docuseries, I want to know so much more about this woman. The docuseries didn't talk about her.
00:22:01
Speaker
Pam Boucher, Boucher. voucher Yeah. i couldn't I couldn't remember how to say her name the first time we talked about her. She was like, she worked for Connections. Yeah. She was at the house a lot with Ruby and Jodi when they were living at the Frankie house.
00:22:17
Speaker
She had been friends with Jodi for yeah years. For years, like yeah over a decade. And when they got picked up the girls from their house, like the girls were cleaning.
00:22:28
Speaker
There's a lot of this cleaning and chores going on. Yeah. And I think – I hope that there has been some sort of investigation into her because I think there needs to be. Because actually, like, have a lot of concerns that this woman was, like, kind of overlooked in all of this.
00:22:45
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, and maybe she – maybe she was a witness and, ah you know, used yeah ah her testimony to – Avoid charges. Yeah.
00:22:57
Speaker
I mean, I could see. And I could see that. And that's because we've never really, after this, she kind of disappeared. never never really heard of. Yeah. After. Yeah. And I think she knows and has participated in a lot.
00:23:11
Speaker
Allegedly. Allegedly. Clearly the kids were at our house and they were, she was maybe not outright lying, but being deceptive. And yeah, very much so.
00:23:22
Speaker
I'd recommend watching that body cam footage as well because the kids were brainwashed as well there. They didn't want to go with the police. Yeah. Yeah. So if you can find that body cam footage, and we also talked about it a lot in The last episodes.
00:23:38
Speaker
But yeah, I have a lot of questions about her. yeah Yeah. So at 542 PM, the police detain Ruby. She had returned to Jodi's house.
00:23:50
Speaker
Like she knew. i don't know. She went back to her home. It was inevitable at that point. Yeah. but um She was completely stone faced and she never once asked about the children.
00:24:05
Speaker
She has a remarkable ability take to stone face, to check out emotionally. Yeah. I mean, I think, yes, absolutely. And that's ah how she was able to do a lot of these things.
00:24:20
Speaker
And I think she views that as a strength. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because what that means is when the end times comes and she sees people she loves burning, she can be better than that and disengage from it and know that she's doing the right thing.
00:24:36
Speaker
Good point. Very good. Talk about zombie. Right? Sorry. Sorry. um At this point, Kevin went to the Ivins Police Department and asked for the two youngest kids.
00:24:47
Speaker
He just thought they were there waiting. Much to his surprise, he was read his Miranda rights.
00:24:54
Speaker
The officer he spoke to thought it was crazy that a father hadn't seen his kids in over a year. Which it was. And you can see in this footage, like, he was suspicious of everything. He believed that the police were there to tear his family apart. Yeah.
00:25:10
Speaker
And he was terrified to say anything that would point the police to Ruby. And because of this, he believed that the police were lying about the state of the kids. And he refused to look at pictures because he thought they were manipulating him. So they were like, we have pictures of what happened to your children. And he wouldn't look at them.
00:25:27
Speaker
which So how much did Ruby actually tell him? That's it. The kids are waiting for you at the police station. And did Ruby... truly not see what abuse they had gone through or what condition had she had she checked out so much that she did not even realize what how much damage she had done and so Passed on.
00:25:49
Speaker
Passed on the information to Kevin. Here's what I think. I think she didn't believe anything she was doing was wrong until she got caught.
00:26:02
Speaker
I still don't think she thought anything she did was wrong, but she knew enough that it was criminal. and she was able to recognize that she was in trouble. She still might fully believe that what she did was the right thing in trying to get these demons out of her children, but she at the very least recognized that she was in trouble and she needed to do some ah quick manipulation work.
00:26:30
Speaker
I think she was kind of blinded to the extent of the Yeah. Harm that she had caused the children. Yeah. And I think it was like getting arrested. I think from the time she was arrested to like the sentencing statement she made.
00:26:47
Speaker
I don't think she entire like truly I don't think she thinks she did anything wrong still. Yeah. and I don't think she probably thinks she's a great mother and and is saving her kids. However, she could recognize the.
00:26:59
Speaker
the extent that it went and probably i mean hopefully i think see of the situation right i think the best she can recognize is what they did to the kids resulted it is why she's in prison she probably thinks she shouldn't be but she understood like i think that's where it is and i think that's why she sent kevin i think if i'm being honest that i think kevin not seeing the kids in a year reflects really badly on him. Oh, it does. I'm wondering if she was trying to, like, scapegoat him.
00:27:31
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know. I mean, is I think that he's definitely part of the problem, though. Oh, sure. But in terms of, like, what she recognized was she was going to get blamed for.
00:27:45
Speaker
like yeah, that ah usually the dads are abusive. So let's send him to the police station. She was OK with that. So at the time, he continued to support his wife and Jodi and her teachings.
00:27:58
Speaker
The police said ah he was not helpful, but not a suspect.
00:28:04
Speaker
i I love that.
00:28:08
Speaker
So um we see in Jodi's police interview footage, like she was completely trying to manipulate. She's like, I'm on your side. Abuse is terrible. i'm just going to like, I got to call my lawyer. I got to do this the right way. Like she was completely like in, I can get anybody to believe anything I say mode.
00:28:25
Speaker
But honestly, that seems more normal than, well, what we're going to hear. Yeah, how house Ruby, how she yeah how she dealt with it. yeah i mean it It was wild. yeah Yeah, Jodie was manipulating, but yeah, it seems like and that's more natural.
00:28:43
Speaker
reaction to this situation she was in which to me kind of reinforces that ruby was the follower of the two um because she was so in it she's like i'm just not gonna say a word and jody's like oh no like i have to i have to talk to them to get them to be on my side too so the following day um chad just had no idea what's happening and went to work and it was actually his boss who Who told him what was all over the news and was like, you got to go home.
00:29:13
Speaker
He had no idea what she was talking about. And then he Googled Ruby Frankie today. Can you imagine? i just, it's insane. But he couldn't wrap his head around it. He believed it was also a setup and not real. Yeah.
00:29:28
Speaker
At that time, he believed that Ruby and Jodi were still God's chosen people and that the prison would crumble with them in it and they would simply walk out and usher in the second coming of Christ.
00:29:40
Speaker
So with this whole thing with like ah everyone thinking it was a setup, who do they think it up and why? Uh, the evil people that are against Jesus question. I mean, it's just, a it's nuts. that Everybody thinks that all this is, this is a complicated setup. Yeah.
00:30:00
Speaker
Well, and it's another ah like high control group thing. Another cult thing. It's the us versus them. Yeah. So the people who set it up are the them. Any of the them, they're all the them.
00:30:11
Speaker
There's a lot of thems out there. I didn't realize this information came from a second interview with the younger two kids, but they were interviewed again ah shortly after in Provo while recovering.
Children's Abuse Descriptions and Ruby's Writings
00:30:24
Speaker
And at that time, the boy was incredibly forthcoming with the police and he laid out the things that he had to do They had to stand in the sun all day. It would be tied down with weights so they couldn't move from the spot they were standing in the sun.
00:30:38
Speaker
They would have to jump on a trampoline all day. And ah this an officer pointed out they were driven out to the middle of a desert on a road called Hell Hole Road.
00:30:50
Speaker
and forced to run. So after this second interview, the police went back to the home to try to find evidence for a second time. And this is when they found a blue folder of Ruby's writings of day-to-day life and what was going on.
00:31:05
Speaker
And it confirmed everything the boy said, but it also showed her belief that good works to be like Jesus must be painful to remove Satan from your body. So she was truly believing. Yep.
00:31:18
Speaker
And in the LDS faith, and this is the mainstream stuff, this isn't even the kind of out there stuff. there No unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God. Being righteous to her became abusing the kids to save them.
00:31:31
Speaker
And she thought this was the right thing to do. She was ready to fight demons in her children until the day she or they died. Do you think the fact that she believed the these things truly affected the sentencing?
00:31:44
Speaker
I actually don't. I can't tell you what the parole board will say because it's that weird thing in Utah that like actually the parole board decides how long they're in prison. But I don't actually think so because that's...
00:31:59
Speaker
Crazy? It sounds like a bad, yes. But it sounds like a bad defense. Like, it sounds like something that she made up to, like, get out of accountability. You know what i mean? So even if she believed it. Yeah.
00:32:11
Speaker
Yeah. It's still, like, I can still see how, like, she got that sentence. Yeah. Don't want to. Yeah. there There shall be no precedence that just if you believe you are.
00:32:24
Speaker
Yeah. Cleansing your chick children by abusers. torturing them. Yeah. Well, and, and the other thing is like in, in court, like the insanity defense is, are you schizophrenic?
00:32:39
Speaker
Are you, are you depressed? Like that's not the definition of insanity. It's knowing right from wrong. And I think her actions showed she, like, she shouldn't be doing, like, this is wrong the way. And I think like the way she called Kevin to go get the kids is like, especially damning and recognizing right from wrong for her.
00:32:58
Speaker
yeah No, I think she might not have believed it was wrong, but she knew it was wrong. You know? Yeah. I'd say she clearly believed ah and understood right from wrong.
00:33:09
Speaker
Although she also truly believed she was doing it for their sake. Yeah. It's like she had to recognize like earthly law says she's wrong, you know?
00:33:21
Speaker
So after all of this, Chad tried to call Jodi and Ruby, even though he was told not to contact them. Couldn't get through, obviously. And he messaged his dad, who told him to come join him at the house immediately.
00:33:33
Speaker
This kind of broke my heart, like the first time they saw each other again. Chad didn't recognize his dad. He said he looked skinny, scrawny, and broke And to Kevin, Chad was like all of a sudden an adult and just looked older.
00:33:47
Speaker
And yeah, that'll happen in a year. But yeah, in a year of being on your own, taking care of everything. Kevin told him that the kids were under the influence of demonic spirits. And Chad also believed this. And his dad said it and accepted the abuse as something truthful in terms of truth, Jodi truth.
00:34:07
Speaker
Ruby told Kevin this, who told Chad that it was the right thing to do. um And in the docuseries, Chad said that he struggles deeply with this now, which is heartbreaking.
00:34:18
Speaker
He was a kid. yeah Kevin said that when they went in the house, it was a disaster. There was items in bins and buckets like they were packing when it was probably more of the prepping behavior. They were prepping for the end times. He said like the drawers and the cabinets were empty.
00:34:34
Speaker
And this is when the things that Kevin was believing didn't match the facts he was seeing. And so he's starting to unravel some of the stuff. When the neighbors realize he's home, ah one particular neighbor went to the house and hugged him and Kevin broke down and sobbed, but he apologized for the mess of the house, which I think goes back to that like ingrained perfection thing.
00:34:59
Speaker
um and the neighbor told him they were packing to move away they were abandoning him he couldn't understand what they're saying and this sweet neighbor sat and talked with him for six hours and it was like untangling everything this conversation he started asking questions for the first time and he was angry and felt crazy and now i mean it would it's not It's not discussed necessarily in the docuseries, but we do know that before this had happened, Ruby did have a conversation with Kevin asking him to sign over the title or rights to the house.
00:35:42
Speaker
So i would i don't know if that... Yeah. And she wouldn't say why, but said it was like a test for their marriage. and And she and Jodi on the other side were planning a moved...
00:35:55
Speaker
to To move to Arizona to set up camp in the middle of the desert so they could really. Well, I mean, literally, I think their ultimate goal was to start their own troubled teen camp.
00:36:07
Speaker
Okay. But yeah they hadn't really started packing up Jodi's house. I guess first things first. I think it's the long-term goal. Let's get the money from your house to go toward this property. and And Lord knows that Jodi had enough storage. Right.
00:36:25
Speaker
So Kevin realized everything was a lie and he had been brainwashed. um he broke it to Chad that they had been lied to the entire time. He told Chad that there was never any possession.
00:36:38
Speaker
None of the kids in this house did anything to deserve this or cause this. And Chad realized that he could not defend his mother anymore. How crazy is that?
00:36:49
Speaker
Is this that it took his neighbor sitting down and talking to him to convince him of these things? When he would not, his own daughter could not yeah get through to I thought the same thing.
00:37:04
Speaker
Kevin and Chad finally had to accept that Ruby and Jodi did these things. Kevin, at the time of the docuseries, says he's still angry and guilty and admits that he was the last line of defense for his children and he left them.
Jodi's Influence and Ruby's Beliefs
00:37:17
Speaker
So then we go to four months later, we see Jodi pleading guilty in a plea agreement. They believe that Jodi convinced Ruby that they they had a cause worth fighting for.
00:37:29
Speaker
And Ruby became determined to eliminate evil in her children when there was never anything to eliminate. The Haywards come back on. Sherry's, the neighbors who kind of took Sherry under their wing and said they believe that Jodi receives satisfaction in taking revenge on anyone who's happy.
00:37:47
Speaker
And that Jodi could get people to believe things that don't make sense. They go back to Paige Hanna, who says that her faith has been strengthened by all of this, saying, quote, don't know what make that.
00:38:00
Speaker
no part of this embodied him and't know what to make of that You know, I think Sherry talks about it, too. It's just it's the evil is in these people. it's It's not in their faith was corrupted. Yeah, right.
00:38:15
Speaker
Their faith was used against them. Then we see Ruby pleading guilty in a plea agreement. Kevin says he didn't look at Ruby during the hearing. um She admitted to destroying his family.
00:38:26
Speaker
Chad said he was heartbroken to see her in handcuffs and ankle chains. Sherry, however, stared at the judge the entire time and didn't believe Ruby's tears. So we go they very poignantly.
00:38:39
Speaker
The docuseries goes back to the first ever video. um And while we're watching that, Sherry says she will never talk to Ruby again. Chad says that he misses having a mother figure and the Ruby when he was young.
00:38:53
Speaker
But she deserves what she's getting. Chad doesn't think that she should be released until the kids have all turned 18 at least, which I think is absolutely reasonable. And he said he still loves her. Now we go back to Kevin, who also says he still loves her.
00:39:07
Speaker
i think that's very different. A son loving his mother is very different than a husband still having this, like, devotion to this woman who did this to his kids. Yeah.
00:39:19
Speaker
We talked about this a little bit before, I think, in the last episode, but there have been subsequent interviews since this came out that I hope that that's changed. He's kind of been more firm. He's, like, stopped writing letters to her in prison and requested that the prison not allow her to contact him anymore, and he filed for divorce.
00:39:35
Speaker
So I'm hoping the more recent interviews are more a better representation of where Kevin's at. um i've He's also been working, fighting to get some laws changed in Utah,
00:39:48
Speaker
About family vlogging. Yeah. I don't know. I just i have a hard time feeling that he's fully sincere in this, though. Yeah. but I was happy to see that the interviews, like the People Magazine interview, that he's a little more like... And Chad, too. They're both like...
00:40:04
Speaker
They're more there. I think it was obviously further out than the docuseries. So I'm hoping that they they're doing work and realizing. um But in the series, he says that he yeah her actions were atrocious, but he still misses her.
00:40:19
Speaker
and I hope when he says that he means he misses their lives before Jodi or even before vlogging. That's what I'm hoping. um And he says he can't turn off the good memories.
00:40:32
Speaker
You know what I think it's kind of okay. I acknowledge that. This I didn't love, but Kevin says he believes this is a story of love, hope, and family. He does also say it's deception and control, which, okay, thank you.
00:40:45
Speaker
Okay. And this I'm on board. I can agree with this. He says it's a story of faith and the dangers of putting your faith in the wrong hands. Yeah. that's I agree with that too. Yeah. So today, Chad is a social media influencer.
00:41:00
Speaker
i believe he's also doing real estate and... Looks like he's living his best
Sherry's Campaign Against Family Vlogging
00:41:04
Speaker
life. He's got a – last I saw, he's got a girlfriend and is just like – he actually makes kind of funny videos about his mom every now and then, which is how I deal with things like this. Well, not things like this extent, but like dark things I handle with dark humor, so I totally get it. He definitely has a great personality.
00:41:21
Speaker
Yeah. Sherry is ah actively campaigning against family vlogging. um She has spoken in front of government officials. ah She's written her book. And I think it was in her book or an interview about her book that she said, like, you're never going to see me again.
00:41:37
Speaker
Like after this stuff dies down, like I just want to get married and be a mom and like have my career and I want to be a normal person. And this is it. Just about her book.
00:41:48
Speaker
She was a great writer. and she Yeah, I agree. There was a lot of passages from her actual diaries. She was also yeah keeping diaries throughout this ah throughout her childhood, and they included a lot of those.
00:42:04
Speaker
Yeah. Which ah is a thing in Mormonism. It's why Ruby had kept the log of everything she had done in her blue folder. ah LDS Church encourages documenting everything.
00:42:17
Speaker
And I think we didn't talk about it in the series, but there is something called the pen papers that Ruby, Jodi, and Pam were writing.
00:42:29
Speaker
And I can't remember if I'll talk about it in a later episode, but... There's speculation that they believe they were writing like the next chapter of the Book of Mormon. And that's journaling is encouraged because they're like, you never know who's writing the next chapter.
00:42:44
Speaker
for those of you who um have not read the book, um and we didn't didn't cover because it wasn't part of the the show, but Sherry was also going through some other horrendous things in her life that she shares in her book.
00:42:55
Speaker
So yeah, it's worth it. If you're interested in the story, go get Sherry's book. It's really Yeah. And I work at a library, so it takes a lot for me to say, like, buy the book.
00:43:07
Speaker
Don't buy it through, like, Amazon or anything, but buy her book to support her. And actually, my friend who does, like, the collections at work, she's like, oh, I ordered that book. And i was like, ah bought it. Sorry.
00:43:18
Speaker
Yeah. And I think hopefully we have a YouTube channel, too. And I think we're going to go through some and analysis of the book there. Yeah. Yeah, I really, really want to because I think that the series and the book kind of go hand in hand.
00:43:31
Speaker
They complement one another. But the last thing I'll say about the series is that Ruby and Jodi did not respond to comment on the series. and the yeah And there have been some new legal challenges that have just come up in the last week, I believe, on the part of Jodi.
00:43:49
Speaker
Especially. Yeah. You know, I hope they both are where they deserve to be. i hope Jodi receives some, I don't know, some sort of punishment for... ah Her behavior as a quote therapist and some of the you know egregious ways she broke everything that they're supposed to do, even like legally, let alone morally. But she broke a lot of laws legally as a quote therapist.
00:44:18
Speaker
um So I hope that there is some repercussions for that. We can hope. So, all right. Well, that's the end of the series. It is really good. I would say watch it.
00:44:28
Speaker
And so the next couple episodes are super interesting. And this is where, like, my ADHD brain went like bananas. Yeah.
00:44:39
Speaker
Because there are there is this specific book. I have no interest in reading it. I just listened to like the Mormon stories and the Hidden True Crime podcast, analyze everything. And I was like good enough for me.
00:44:50
Speaker
I'm not reading this book. I kind of wanted you to read it because I couldn't stand to read it myself. I'm not interested. It also sounds like it's poorly written. I'm going to guess so.
00:45:01
Speaker
But there is this book called Visions of Glory that we are going to talk about over the next couple episodes that link some very well-known big deal cases that LDS has played a part in.
00:45:17
Speaker
And that, yeah, it's it's concerning. Shocking, maybe? Yeah. Yeah, it's I think there's reason to be concerned that.
00:45:28
Speaker
people are reading this and believing it and there are a lot of examples of people being misguided by this book yeah and so yes i'm excited to talk about that so we'll next couple weeks we'll go into that and then we'll go into some of like the weird uh blood atonement stuff of mormonism that i don't know how closely it's tied to this case but it there are similarities but that's a whole thing stick with us tune in next week
00:45:58
Speaker
Yes, and we'll talk to you soon. Bye, guys.