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The Duggar Family and the IBLP, Part 5
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On today's episode, we discuss the beginning of Josh's trial, including the evidentiary hearing, jury selection, and the prosecution's case. We get some *chef's kiss* snark from the judge to the family patriarch, Jim Bob.
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
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Transcript
Introduction to Hosts and Topic
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I'm here with my Aunt Joy. We are two neurodivergent ladies who obsess about various topics. Joy is autistic and I have ADHD and we are letting our hyperfixations fly.
00:00:15
Speaker
Today we are fixating on the Duggar family.
00:00:29
Speaker
Well, welcome
Recap of Josh Duggar's Trial
00:00:30
Speaker
back, everybody. um Today we are continuing to talk about the Duggar family, and we are walking through Josh Duggar's trial.
00:00:40
Speaker
Will you just give us a tiny recap from... Yes. So last episode, we talked about the Homeland Security raid on his car lot, his arrest, and the bond hearing. Okay.
00:00:53
Speaker
So at this time, he's got these he's got large federal charges. This is a federal trial. He did get bond. He's staying with family friends. And if you'll remember, the husband talked to Jim Bob and was like, heck, yeah, he can stay with us.
00:01:09
Speaker
And the wife actively testified in court that I will go along with what my husband says. Wow. So he's living with other people, can't see any, be around minors, can't have internet access.
00:01:22
Speaker
And he can only be around his children if he's with, if his wife is there. Okay,
Sources and Context
00:01:27
Speaker
so let's talk about sources quick. The sources I used are Shiny Happy People on Amazon Prime, Counting the Cost by Jill Duggar Dillard, the YouTube channel Fundy Fridays, the podcast Someplace Underneath, the Leaving Eden podcast, Time Suck, Digging Up the Duggars podcast, Pretty Lies and Alibis, and Behind the Bastards.
00:01:50
Speaker
the Duggar Snark subreddit, the websites Recovering Grace and Homeschoolers Anonymous, NBC News and Wikipedia. All right. e So we are in November 2021.
Court Proceedings and Molestation Allegations
00:02:05
Speaker
And this is what we're going to talk about right now is an evidentiary hearing that happened before jury selection and before the trial started. And it's a hearing about whether evidence of Josh's past crimes can be admitted into the trial.
00:02:18
Speaker
Okay. So what they're talking about. So what they're talking about are the um molestation allegations against his sisters and an additional person who didn't live in the home.
00:02:29
Speaker
So it's not necessarily past crimes. It's past behavior, right? Because he was never convicted. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Past allegations, past, no, past behaviors, by the way. So the main pieces of of evidence that will be discussed at this hearing are Josh's admissions on national TV when his family was on the Megyn Kelly, or rather did the Megyn Kelly interview.
00:02:54
Speaker
There is a police report from Jim Bob from the time and Bobby Holt's testimony. Jim Bob also testified at this, but we'll get into that. Okay.
00:03:06
Speaker
First, I did want to add, so his sister Jill Duggar Dillard was on the witness list for both this evidentiary hearing and the trial. So it didn't necessarily mean she'd be called, but that also meant she wasn't allowed to be in the trial if she was on the witness list.
00:03:24
Speaker
Was she the only one of the siblings that was on the witness list? No. I think there were a couple of the boys when the trial starts.
00:03:35
Speaker
um And I think the ones that were on the witness list had worked at the car lot. ah Makes
Jill Duggar's Potential Testimony
00:03:40
Speaker
sense. Okay. um But Jill would have been the one that it seems like would have been the one more willing to testify about the abuse.
00:03:48
Speaker
So although at this time she hadn't been to any of the days of the trial or or kind of been involved much, her husband Derek had been. right um He was at every bit of the trial.
00:04:00
Speaker
Good for him. I'm glad she had representation and. Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's twofold. um Listen, we're going to be transparent here. We had to restart this recording. So I'm trying to remember what we talked about because we had a really good conversation about Derek.
00:04:15
Speaker
Well, basically what I said is, is Derek a good guy yeah or is Derek a bad guy? That's how it always comes down to my brain too. Which side? and And I guess the answer really is it's not all one.
00:04:26
Speaker
Wow. That's the answer in all of the things we talk about. ah No, I think like what sold me on Derek is so Derek like has some big opinions about things and probably should have been smart enough not to share them publicly.
00:04:42
Speaker
And ah Jill and him were on shiny, happy people together. And so the Duggars on the show do this thing where like when the husband's talking, the wife is just gazing adoringly and just like obsessed with every word that is said.
00:04:59
Speaker
Just like in my home.
00:05:03
Speaker
um But on shiny happy people, he was there as like strictly support. It was her story. And he would do the thing of like gazing at her, but it was more, like it was like making sure she was okay.
00:05:17
Speaker
More like just looking at her. Right. Just like keeping an eye on her, making sure like questions, like there was at one point that he was like, I think if I'm remembering correctly that he was like, do you want to go there? When when there was a question asked and stuff like that, I think he would have been the one to like, if she was uncomfortable, he would have shut it down and stuff like that.
Family Dynamics at Trial
00:05:35
Speaker
So that puts me in the camp of like, I think, I think he's a good guy. i think he really loves his wife and his family and his wants to be wants to protect them. Yeah.
00:05:46
Speaker
um I do appreciate that he has never been quiet about Jim Bob. Yeah. Okay. So he's kind of, yeah. So, so for the most part, good guy kind of bit of a know-it-all, right? Yeah. That's, that's the vibe I get. He's kind of a like, but actually guy, but at the time he was in law school also. So this is like, this is a huge trial to be able to go to as a law student. And he always had like a notebook and was taking notes on everything. Yeah.
00:06:12
Speaker
Do you think you'd be the kid in law school who like, I guess not kid, man. Right. Like raise a hand like, let me tell you about the example I saw. Yeah, right. Probably. I've seen this before. Especially if everybody already. It's like everyone knows who you are.
00:06:27
Speaker
right. So I just wanted to get that out there. um There's a lot of. I'm glad they didn't need Jill's testimony. Ultimately, Jill doesn't testify. And I'm glad they didn't need her.
00:06:39
Speaker
just feel like that would have like just on the stand in front of your whole like in front of your parents or Michelle's there in front of your dad who's controlled everything in front of your your brother who did this to you. Like it's just it's insane.
00:06:53
Speaker
It's almost as if you're betraying them to their faces in some way, even though they did terrible. Right. Right. And that's what she was raised to think also. So it's like, all right, so let's get to the actual hearing.
00:07:06
Speaker
November 29th, we're going to talk about Bobby's testimony. So Bobby Holt is the wife of Jim Holt, which is very easy to remember when you have Jim Bob, Jim and Bobby. Yeah.
00:07:19
Speaker
Shortage of names.
00:07:22
Speaker
ah So if you'll remember, Jim Bob and Jim are very, very good friends, family friends. Josh traveled with Jim Holt during his campaign. I don't remember what he was running for.
00:07:35
Speaker
And when Jim Holt lost his, he blamed, he said something like sin in the camp with the now assumption is that Josh Duggar was probably watching porn at this time.
00:07:49
Speaker
And that was the sin. And that's why Jim Holt lost. No other reason. Did they remain friends? They remained friends. Yeah. um I think. I'm sorry. jim Did Jim and Jim Bob.
00:08:00
Speaker
yeah Yes. Yes, they did. I think it, it became one of the things of like Jim Bob had to do some apologizing and like sucking up to, to, to, and be like, look at, we are giving him consequences. We're sending him to this weird camp where he has to shave his head.
00:08:17
Speaker
That'll take care of it. Yes.
Friendship Fallout with the Holts
00:08:20
Speaker
But also at this time during the campaign, Josh was betrothed to Jim and Bobby Holt's daughter.
00:08:29
Speaker
So this is, you know, they do the courtship. This is like the parents decide. It's like it's an arranged marriage kind of that they were just like, these two are going to get together. Eventually, when they're old enough, they'll start a courtship and they'll get married.
00:08:42
Speaker
So when the allegations of the molestation came out, the Holtz broke off the betrothal. They said, our daughter's not marrying you. Fair enough.
00:08:54
Speaker
i Probably a decision at that point. But at the same time,
00:09:00
Speaker
ah Josh had my understanding is Josh, I think, lived with the Holtz briefly as to like get him out of the house. Get him away from the sisters.
00:09:14
Speaker
And Bobby said it was like misery. It was a bad time in their house. Get him away from his sisters and put him with their teenage daughters. Yeah. Okay. Pretty bad. Yeah. It doesn't sound like decision. I think Bobby was right, but she let it happen.
00:09:29
Speaker
Right. Right. She testified that Jim, Bob and Michelle had kept their heads in the sand about the whole thing. So if you're wondering if they're friends today, it's no. That'll get you. So Bobby um testified to a long, intense confession session with Jim, Bob, Michelle, Josh and herself and her husband.
00:09:52
Speaker
She said that Jim Holt fell asleep during the confession session.
Court Behavior and Credibility Issues
00:09:58
Speaker
Okay. Seems like it would be lively enough to keep a person awake, but. Yeah.
00:10:02
Speaker
And. How awkward was they like nodding off? That's my guess. I can kind of picture it like. v His eyes slowly. Yeah. Yeah. That is absolutely what I think was happening.
00:10:13
Speaker
His wife giving him the elbow. Yeah. So she also said that Jim Bob wasn't very transparent about details. They were definitely given a sanitized version of what happened. um can imagine.
00:10:24
Speaker
But then when Jim Bob testified at this hearing, he still couldn't remember that these important details of what happened. Yeah. before we keep going with Bobby's testimony there was at one point I'm sorry I can't say without laughing Jim Bob tried to refuse to read the molestation police report at this hearing and the judge said quote if there is an objection someone will make it and that someone will not be you I don't know how judges come up with these great statements on the spot but they're oh gosh I feel like that's part of like you do law school you become the lawyer and then you're like if you want to be a judge we have to know that you've got wit
00:11:03
Speaker
There's another c class. Yeah, there's an elective. There's a judge judge class. Judge humor class. On the spot. Stand up. Yep. So, all right, back to Bobby. ah The defense said that this confession session should be protected under clergy parishioner privilege.
00:11:23
Speaker
So basically saying that this this meeting that they had was ah basically Josh confessing to like a priest or a pastor and that that should be protected. Yeah. Question though, were any of them actually considered clergy at this point? I mean, i don't it's a different type of worship than- It's difficult because like, I don't think there's any, I don't think there's anyone can, like nobody's ordained.
00:11:46
Speaker
Okay. Nobody's, so it's tricky. Jim bot, like they all lead- Yeah. Worship services and they all preach. So I don't- Yeah. Where's the line? I don't know what the law would say about that.
00:12:02
Speaker
And then could it go so far as like, if you're talking to your mom about something, if this happened and she's like the leader of the church, does that, you know what i mean? It's like, that's what I'm saying. Or is it, yeah, does it get to the point where if you're speaking amongst other churchgoers, parishioners. I don't, I know it is.
00:12:20
Speaker
but So then is it at all? yeah It would be interesting to see what, it if this actually happened, cause you'll see it doesn't, but if this is actually a thing, like what a court would say, or a judge would say, that is interesting.
00:12:34
Speaker
That is good point. So the, the prosecution's response to this is that, well, a woman can't be clergy in your religion. Right. I love that.
00:12:45
Speaker
It's so good. Love it. So basically what this hearing is about it with Bobby's testimony and the police report um is about distinguished distinguishing habit evidence versus character evidence.
00:13:03
Speaker
So character evidence is evidence towards the character of a person. So he is slimy. He is a jerk. He is... yes and All of that is not evidence.
00:13:14
Speaker
It is opinion and therefore not admissible. Gotcha. However, habit evidence depicts a pattern of behavior. He molests people multiple times.
00:13:25
Speaker
Yes. And we have different things showing that. We have this piece of evidence. We have this conversation. We have, you know. um So in that sense, the defense says Josh isn't on trial for molesting his sisters.
00:13:43
Speaker
Okay. which And the prosecution says that molestation is significantly similar to the crime that Josh is being tried for and therefore establishes ah pattern of behavior.
00:13:54
Speaker
Makes sense. The judge ruled in favor of the prosecution and he was snarky again towards Jim Bob. He did not like Jim Bob. And you blame him. And then Jim Bob ultimately didn't testify at trial. And I think that was a smart move for the defense. definitely ah But he called Jim Bob, quote, not credible and self-serving.
00:14:16
Speaker
And he kind of he gave him called him out kind of in judge leeway of like not Jim Bob didn't kept saying he didn't remember details, which means he didn't remember details of his daughter's molestation. Yeah, just awful.
00:14:32
Speaker
It's terrible. Yeah. So the following day, November 30th, jury selection began. The public
Jury Selection Process
00:14:40
Speaker
and media were not allowed in the courtroom, but they could listen from a different room.
00:14:45
Speaker
And this is wild to me, but jurors didn't know what trial they were being called for and were very surprised. ah That is so crazy to me. i know. And the reason is, why is that in this case? Because normally I think, well, when I've gone to jury duty, you know what case you're going to be. Yeah.
00:15:04
Speaker
It's, you know, they have to try to find people who who know nothing about this case or very little or won't be tainted by opinions. So I feel like if ahead of time, you know, you're going to Josh Duggar's trial, that's very hard to like understand.
00:15:19
Speaker
open up google and it's like the first news story but if you don't know that's your trial then you're not gonna don't know go looking for things or stuff like that before because i think before they're like sworn in they can if you're not sworn in or in the courtroom before you actually start jury duty like you yeah look whatever you want i guess that's true i guess that's true so in the voir dire process oh my I don't know that word. I've never heard that word before in my life. Well, I'm just going to throw it in there to sound smart.
00:15:50
Speaker
It's the... I thought it was Latin, but I just looked it up now. It's like the old Anglo-Saxon, but it means like to, don't know, question a jury. Okay. To question people for a jury. So anyways. I like it. Yeah. just But so... Because I'm just kind of...
00:16:04
Speaker
Do you ask them? Like, what do you say? Like, are you aware of this case? Or you just don't say anything about the case when you're questioning witness? I'm sorry, jurors. I feel like when you start questioning, you say, like, are you familiar with this? Or to what extent? or I don't know So a juror, one of the jurors was almost immediately dismissed because his daughter is married to a Duggar.
00:16:27
Speaker
I saw that. Like, it's a quick one to decide. My gosh. But at the same time, there's so many of them. Right. It's like, I almost said it's a small world, but it's not. There's just so many.
00:16:40
Speaker
They all have to know somebody who's a Duggar. I feel like. It's crazy. So ah the judge read off a potential witness list, including the Holtz and Caleb and Josh Williams.
00:16:52
Speaker
So we'll have to remember them. But Caleb Williams was at one time arrested for sexual assault. He was rumored to be courting a Duggar daughter.
00:17:06
Speaker
And he lived with the Duggars for a little bit. He was sent to live there to be fixed of his sexual assault. i don't know.
Defense's Blame Strategy
00:17:14
Speaker
That kind of thing by Josh. It seems like they need to come up with a better system than this.
00:17:19
Speaker
Sure. Like therapy, like real therapy. Than sending them to another person's house, especially another person who has a child who has the same issues. Yeah. No, but Josh was cured. He went to his weird... Oh, he already good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:30
Speaker
His head had been shaved. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So these... I'm sorry. Josh, are they brothers? They're brothers. And friends? yeah Like friends of family friends? Family friends. They worked at the car lot. oh Oh, God, this car lot. So good keep them in mind because Josh's defense is going to start pointing fingers at other people who it could be.
00:17:50
Speaker
It's hard because it's like you're you go back and forth between what happened... When they were young. Yep. And what's going on currently. Right. Right. so um So they part of the evidence that was seized was like the password for the computer was on a sticky note near the computer. So basically what the defense is going to say is anyone had access to the password to get on the computer.
00:18:13
Speaker
But that's why they were called. So also on the list was Jill, as we discussed, and it's Jedediah Duggar who worked at the car lot. so Okay. So he was, he was on the witness list also? Yes.
00:18:25
Speaker
Yeah. Which, gosh, like that makes me feel like he was one of the people Josh was willing to point a finger at for a while. Like anybody but me. That's horrible.
00:18:36
Speaker
Right. it Thankfully he wasn't called. Yeah. Like that nobody related was, was called ultimately, but like, that's why else would he, the only one who worked at the car lot be on the witness list.
00:18:48
Speaker
Are they similar in age? No. Josh is the oldest. Jedediah one of the, he's like in, there's like a string of boys and he's in a big like group of boys in the middle. All right.
00:19:01
Speaker
He's twins with Jeremiah. Oh, that's so cool. The names love it. I used to be able to do the names.
00:19:10
Speaker
i I'm mortified. I'm not bragging. You need to practice that again. Yeah. It needs to be an intro. Our intro. I couldn't possibly.
00:19:22
Speaker
During ah
Prosecution's Case and Technical Evidence
00:19:23
Speaker
the jury selection, we find out that the prosecutors said that Josh and Anna weren't allowing forensic interviews with their kids. Okay. So investigators wanted to talk to their kids to make sure they were safe and nothing was happening. Okay.
00:19:40
Speaker
And I don't know why Josh would be allowed to have an opinion or like his his ah being against it matters. But Anna said, no, they would not allow that. And I guess you're allowed.
00:19:50
Speaker
I guess, and yeah, there's been no accusations or. okay OK. So the judge warned the jury that who were ultimately picked, warned them about the potential content they they might have to see and gave them the opportunity to excuse themselves.
00:20:08
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. And nobody ultimately did. I'm sure some wish they had. But yeah so we also have to keep in mind in any trial, the defense team doesn't need to prove innocence.
00:20:21
Speaker
They have to raise reasonable doubt. The burden is on the prosecution to prove guilt. So all the defense has to do is poke holes in the state's argument basically i'm sorry did we is it are we still an evidentiary hearing okay okay i'm just like we have the jury sludge just like something to keep in mind and i think they they i think at most trials like everybody tells the jury this too like it's not the burden's not on the defense they don't have to prove he's innocent so and i just talk about we're gonna go right into the prosecution's case the prosecution opened
00:20:58
Speaker
They i think in their opening arguments, they like made sure to say, hey, conversations between two church members is not clergy privilege. Let's just get that on record right now.
00:21:10
Speaker
Yeah. Jim Bob, ah they say, you know, Jim Bob was viewed as the judge is uncredible and his testimony was not necessary so that he wasn't called. That's fair.
00:21:21
Speaker
And then they're going to talk about how the Homeland Security investigation happened. worked with downloads and like how the raid happened and kind of that technical stuff that gets confusing and boring.
00:21:34
Speaker
Well, so the prosecution says that and it's just I don't know. I would have such a hard time being an attorney because they say someone using Josh's phone like they can't say yet. Josh did it because he's not convicted, but it's like someone using Josh's phone would text Anna something like Got stuck late at work.
00:21:58
Speaker
Then a few minutes later, someone using Josh's, you know, Josh's phone or something like Josh, someone using it would download adult pornography.
00:22:11
Speaker
And then a few minutes later, someone using Josh's phone would text Anna like more customers still still here. button And then a minute after that text on the computer was when the child sex abuse material was downloaded.
00:22:27
Speaker
So it's like, obviously the implication is that Josh was texting Anna and lying about being stuck at work so he could downloads do what he wanted. Okay. ah So then after this, the prosecution began showing their evidence.
00:22:41
Speaker
there was There were images that were shown. And Anna stepped out of the room when the jury was shown the images of what was found here. on Josh's computer.
00:22:53
Speaker
So they first called Detective Calmer, is a computer programmer. this is where we're going to start getting in some technical stuff that I don't entirely understand, but I'm just going to say it.
00:23:06
Speaker
ah He said that that Josh knew knew how to use a computer program if someone is using peer-to-peer interfaces to get possible child sex abuse material. So So ultimately, like this, this person, his job is to look at this stuff.
00:23:25
Speaker
and He has to go in. He was the person who went on the computer to make sure that it was actually child abuse, sex material. And he's the guy who has to watch it. This is the agent. Yeah. the Or detective. Yeah.
00:23:37
Speaker
Okay. Detective. And so like he, he doesn't decide anything. He looks at it. he's He looks at the stuff. And if it is the CSAM. All he does is give it to the investigation.
00:23:50
Speaker
He's like, this is what I found. And then he's like, hands done. He's totally technical, basically. Right. 100% technical and probably horribly traumatized. True. The jury. So the jury did have to, as I said, there were images shown.
00:24:03
Speaker
ah The jury had screens up. So the rest of the courtroom couldn't see any of the images. I can't imagine. I know. And the defense attorney stood up and blocked Josh from view of the jury so they wouldn't see him while also looking at the material. It's interesting.
00:24:22
Speaker
Like to kind of disconnect yeah him from it, you know. um Oh, and I'm so sorry. The detective I'm talking about is a woman. Agent Faulkner. No, the one, the one I'm just the Colmer, Detective Colmer. Oh, okay, okay. She's a woman. I, I, sorry.
00:24:37
Speaker
I wrote these notes a while ago, guys. ah So during the cross-examination, the defense just tried to like trip her up with technical stuff, but she was just like, this is my job.
00:24:48
Speaker
This is A, B, and C happened. Like, shut up, move on. So after that, I don't think anybody had to look at anything else from there. There might be one other instance, but I think like the looking at horrible things is done for these poor jurors. Okay. Yeah.
00:25:05
Speaker
So next, Agent Faulkner is called. I believe he is a Homeland Security agent. He was working an active abuse case at the time. This is the time of the raid.
00:25:18
Speaker
And because he was working an active case, solving that was a priority because there wasn't any evidence that Josh was hurting a child at the moment. And the case he was covering was like someone was hurting a child. He had to get that. yeah um But he was one of the so he was in kind of a tricky spot. And it's probably why this took a little bit longer.
00:25:38
Speaker
it was two years between the raid and the trial. we maybe need a few more agents? Probably, probably. hate to say it, but. So he testified that three Homeland Security agents and four computer experts were involved at the raid of the car lot.
00:25:53
Speaker
He also testified that Josh did sign Miranda Wright's statement. So the defense is going to say he wasn't Mirandized. He was. And that he knew that officers were recording when he said, was someone downloading child sex?
00:26:09
Speaker
He didn't say child sex abuse material, but we know meant. He knew that was happening. he also He also knew it was recording when Josh said, like, he knows. i won't I won't deny guilt because people get in trouble when they say the wrong thing.
00:26:22
Speaker
He's so smart. ah So, again, the defense takes over, cross-examines. They just continue to try try to undermine credibility. um They say that a customer had left a thumb drive in one of the cars.
00:26:38
Speaker
Yeah. And the images could have been on that thumb drive. Like, could have been from that. So they're just trying to poke holes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this one was, like, kind of confusing. But they're trying to prove that calebm Caleb Williams was there at the time.
00:26:54
Speaker
And during the cross-examination, they present checks from the car lot made out to Caleb Williams. And
Computer Access and Covenant Eyes Software
00:27:02
Speaker
that's, like, what they're trying to prove. Like, he was there. He was getting the checks.
00:27:06
Speaker
Yeah. So are they trying to prove he was working there at the same time or that he was physically there at the some of the same times this stuff was downloaded? Both. Okay. So there' there's not actually evidence that to prove he was there that day.
00:27:19
Speaker
The checks show that he was there in the like the month that the downloads happened. but So that's the best they got. Like, look, we, Carlotte gave him this check in May. It could be him.
00:27:31
Speaker
just don't, but did downloads just happen one time and then you have it downloaded and you can just tap into it? Yeah. Okay. You just need to, okay. It wasn't like an ongoing downloading situation.
00:27:43
Speaker
He was repeatedly downloading. Okay. So it says different things. Okay. Okay. So the other thing is Caleb works in e-commerce and Bitcoin. Yeah.
00:27:55
Speaker
So the defense said to this expert, like, he's able to remotely access computers. He knows how this stuff works. And that there's no forensic documents that show any of the other employees' phones were checked. Which I'm like, okay, that I can get on board with. But, like, him being in the vicinity of the car lot in the month that downloads happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:17
Speaker
So then they call Matthew Waller. Matthew is a distant Duggar relative by marriage. He is the brother of you David Wallard Waller. Sorry, who is married to Anna's sister, Priscilla.
00:28:32
Speaker
So it's like it's. Oh, my God. Right. It's all a thing. It's ah so. So he was um he worked at the car lot, but it was before any of the downloads happened.
00:28:44
Speaker
He ended his employment April twenty nine twenty eighteen. I don't know. Like this was a weird one. Like, I don't know why they called him. Except to kind of, like, block the defense from calling him on their own side. Like, when the defense was giving their testimony and stuff like that, presenting their case.
00:29:03
Speaker
If the prosecution, like, preemptively called him. Okay. So... So he's basically just being called. I worked. i worked a lot. And it was, I think, to establish.
00:29:15
Speaker
I think he was probably one of the people they were going to try to point the finger at. And it's to establish like left before then. but yeah um So the defense. The defense does an interesting thing. And they instead of talking about like when he was there, they start talking about the computer software.
00:29:32
Speaker
And they're talking to him about they're asking about like the partition computer software. And they ask him if they're if he's familiar with the password Intel 1988. OK. okay And and he says it sounds familiar.
00:29:48
Speaker
And at one point, the prosecution redirects and the defense is like response under his breath kind of thing was, I thought you were hiding something from me.
00:29:59
Speaker
I guess like he had initially he had been asked like by the prosecution, do you know the password for this computer? And he said no. And then the defense and redirects or in cross examination was like, is this password familiar? And he's like, I guess. And he's like, you're hiding something.
00:30:14
Speaker
Those are two very different questions. Yes. I guess Josh used the same password for everything. So was it, I mean, it was just the password for like the regular work computer.
00:30:24
Speaker
ah Right. I mean, yeah. And Josh's social media and his banking and everything. So if you had worked at the, if you'd worked at all at the, at the car lot, you would.
00:30:36
Speaker
You knew this password. Well, and the other reason that it sounded familiar was to him was because the defense, a defense attorney had mentioned that password to him before. was when you get the general question, does it sound familiar?
00:30:50
Speaker
He's like, yeah, you just said it. All right. So that's it. This poor guy's off the stand.
00:30:57
Speaker
Next, ah the prosecution calls Jeffrey Wofford. He works for Covenant Eyes. you'll remember, covenant Covenant Eyes is the software you can install. So you have an accountability partner who can make sure you're not doing anything inappropriate on the Internet.
00:31:15
Speaker
I think we could do an entire series on Covenant Eyes. i think it's so funny. I agree. So Josh had been subscribed to Covenant Eyes since 2014. You will recall he got around that when he was on Ashley Madison.
00:31:29
Speaker
This guy. So this ah Jeffrey Wofford testified that Covenant Eyes doesn't work on a Linux partition. The Linux partition was how what how he so split the computer. So remember, if you remember, it's one computer, but internally it's working as two.
00:31:48
Speaker
So one, the legitimate business computer. Two. Uh-huh. The dark computer. Right. Yes. And Covenant Eyes wouldn't work on that. It would work on the legitimate side. But not on the dark side.
00:32:00
Speaker
And i this just made me laugh. Josh's setting was mature teen.
00:32:09
Speaker
That's funny. Oh, goodness. Next, they call Marshall Kennedy, who is a computer expert with Homeland Security who specializes in digital evidence. He testified that there was no evidence of child sex abuse material on Josh's home computer or iPhone and that the partition was installed on the work computer on May 11th, 2019.
00:32:34
Speaker
um During cross-examination, he was asked if he looked into remote access or data on the router, and he said he did not. um It was confirmed that the internet router wasn't removed at the time of the raid.
00:32:46
Speaker
This is a big deal to the defense, but it ultimately doesn't matter. Okay.
Partition and Illegal Activities Evidence
00:32:51
Speaker
They're obsessed with the router. Why is the router in there? Did anyone look at the router?
00:32:57
Speaker
kind of like Hunter Biden's laptop. Right. Exactly. Or Hillary Clinton's emails. or Yes. You didn't look at the router. So next, the prosecution calls James Fattrell.
00:33:07
Speaker
He is the director of the Department of Justice of Child Exploitation. He he collected evidence for the case, which is kind of a big deal. that mean, it shows you how big this was.
00:33:19
Speaker
The director of this department did it. Yeah. um He also was able to demonstrate how to access the partitioned side of the computer. so he was technical. yeah he knows like he can he knows this stuff.
00:33:32
Speaker
ah Basically, he confirmed that you wouldn't know there was a partition if it wasn't your computer. It's, yeah. um On the Linux side, which is the partitioned side, there was a document with Josh's name and address on it.
00:33:45
Speaker
Like he did paperwork for something and forgot he was on the bad side. Oh. But it confirmed that he did it. Yeah. Yeah. And there were thumbnails of child sex abuse material.
00:33:59
Speaker
Fittrell had to describe these verbally. um Nobody had to see anything. No. This time, so the the jury kept it together for having to see the images, but like this time they were visibly upset at having to kind of... That's interesting. I mean, I'm not sure which which i would find more upsetting. You know, I feel like... more upsetting I feel like at that time it was kind of like a spectacle. They had to set up screens. They had to do all these things. So like, you know, as a juror that people are watching your reaction...
00:34:28
Speaker
Yeah. And at this time, you're like, you're supposed to be paying attention to the guy, and not me. And so maybe there's a little bit more wiggle, like there's a little bit more relaxed and they can kind of, they're not being watched directly.
00:34:41
Speaker
Fattrell's supposed to be the guy you're watching. Yeah. And I would assume Fattrell was trying to keep all emotion out of his voice. Right. But you still can, I think, pick up on the little bits. That's what i yeah, that have been very hard for him to...
00:34:56
Speaker
To talk about. Seeing, having to see something and like, keep it together. Like, there's just a higher, you know, there's a higher standard of like, I have to be stone faced. Yeah. And then hearing like, I don't know.
00:35:08
Speaker
And then you almost feel for that person for having to stay stone faced. Right. As they're saying something that obviously. Yeah. They would know. So at this time, this is what I was thinking of.
00:35:19
Speaker
I think somebody accidentally clipped something. So he's demonstrating this on like a big screen behind him. Like how you access this, how you do all these things. it's heat There's like a projector.
00:35:32
Speaker
the Someone clipped something and an image was briefly shown. Oh, goodness. And it was like clearly visible to the court really quickly. Anna was in there and she just ah didn't react.
00:35:44
Speaker
Oh. But that was. Yeah. So Fattrell goes on to ah testify on a detailed timeline that proves Josh's phone was being used at the car lot at the time that the downloads were happening to the computer at the car lot.
00:36:00
Speaker
um May 11th at 547 p.m., the Linux partition was downloaded to the CarLot computer. At 558 p.m., a photo was taken from Josh's iPhone of a car at the lot.
00:36:13
Speaker
And at 559 p.m., a text is sent to Josh Williams discussing a car. So, like, just showing, like, 10 minutes after the Linux partition was downloaded, Josh is taking photos and texting.
00:36:26
Speaker
Yeah, he's doing this in the middle of his workday. Right. Right. So May 13th, 2019, Tor was downloaded to the Linux side of the computer. My basic understanding of the Tor browser is like, that's how we get to the darknet.
00:36:41
Speaker
but Tor means you can do bad things on the internet. As that was being downloaded, a photo was taken on Josh's phone again. um And they're they're just laying out a pattern that Josh's phone is present when these things are happening on the computer computer at the car lot.
00:36:56
Speaker
It does bring up, you know, the prosecution kind of has to figure out how to show that it was Josh using the phone and not someone else. okay Okay. May 14th, 2019, a photo is taken by Josh's phone in Tonytown, which is where the car lot is.
00:37:11
Speaker
4.49 p.m. Anna gets a text saying, got stuck here. 35 minutes later, torrent files of child sex abuse material were downloaded to the Linux side of the Carlock computer.
00:37:23
Speaker
At 5.41 p.m., a movie was downloaded as well. god Oh, God. At 5.48 p.m., he sent a text, or whoever had Josh's phone sent a text to a customer. At 6.04 and 6.07, photos are taken on the phone.
00:37:41
Speaker
oh And then at 8.14 p.m., a selfie of Josh at Lowe's was taken on the phone. I don't know. I mean, I know the point is the time frame, but I don't know. can I mean, pictures of this guy. Like, first of all, why are you taking a selfie of yourself at Lowe's?
00:37:56
Speaker
But also. Right. I know. So and and I think why that's important for the timeline is like, why would he not have his phone during that time and then have it again later? Right.
00:38:08
Speaker
May 15th, 2019 at 1115 a.m., a text came from Josh's phone saying, I'm at the car lot. I'll be here until 1 p.m. And another that said, we'll be back.
00:38:19
Speaker
So he's just texting people. Between 11 a.m. and 12 p.m., multiple torrent files are downloaded. Between
Phone and Computer Activity Evidence
00:38:29
Speaker
3.55 and 5.08 p.m., there's just multiple texts again.
00:38:33
Speaker
One of them said that Josh would be at the car lot until 6 p.m., Between 5 and 6 p.m., five more files are downloaded. And at 5.59 p.m., ah he sent a text saying he'd be at the car lot for a while because there were still a lot of customers.
00:38:49
Speaker
Is that to Anna? I don't think they actually said, but it's got to be. Yeah. yeah And it's like, i don't know if you got that many customers. So we don't have a ton of extra money. we We are fine. We do everything. We just never really after like we put some savings away, we never have a lot of extra.
00:39:06
Speaker
And I could just see like the stay at home mother being like, there's so many customers. That's so exciting. But you didn't make a sale. That's so weird. Yeah.
00:39:19
Speaker
May 16th, 2019 at 1133 a.m. m One of the videos that was downloaded had a thumbnail image created. I don't know how you do that, but he's. So he created it Is that the implication? i think so I think so. 1135 a.m.
00:39:36
Speaker
A photo of a car was taken with Josh's phone. 1256 p.m. A text from Josh's phone saying he can't go to Lowe's because he had a customer. So he's ah at Lowe's a lot. Poor Lowe's gets pulled into this.
00:39:52
Speaker
Fattrell was asked who was at the car lot every time a file was downloaded, and he responded that it was Josh. He was on the stand for
Defense's Password and Investigation Arguments
00:40:01
Speaker
part of Thursday and all day of Friday during the week of the trial, so he was there a lot.
00:40:06
Speaker
He testified that Tor was downloaded to Josh's iPhone, And it was used to view, quote, non-psychopath adult pornography. Oh my gosh, that's very specific. Yeah, so it's just like, I think that's the way of saying, like, good old-fashioned porn.
00:40:25
Speaker
So he was using, you know, like, am I a psychopath Right. But I think that that was, you know, it shows that Josh is in the habit of using Tor browser and he knows how to do it.
00:40:38
Speaker
He's even using it to view legal sexual images. So, of course, he would know how to use it to view illegal images. ah Yeah. Cross-examination. They asked about the password.
00:40:51
Speaker
And, um you know, the Intel 1988, they kind of said, like, it's if everybody knows this password or ahe uses it for everything, then it's, you know, and everybody would have access.
00:41:05
Speaker
Hiding him behind his stupidity, trying to use his stupidity as a Yes, yes. yes Exactly. ah So they say it's to different family and personal accounts. And I like when they mentioned family, jo or I'm sorry, when they mentioned family, Anna visibly reacted to it.
00:41:22
Speaker
Interesting that that would. It was like, yeah, when he's like, he's using the same password for like our family Shutterfly account. as yeah Yeah, I guess I can see that. we ah So the defense has like really hones in like they want to know about the router and they want to know about remote access.
00:41:42
Speaker
So that anybody could remotely access this computer from outside of the car lot is what the defense is trying to yeah offer. And do we does anyone have remote um is anyone known to have remote access or are they just saying somebody could somebody could.
00:42:01
Speaker
like Yes. um Fatrell actually looked into the tools for remote access and said that it didn't fit the pattern of of like what was happening on the computer, if that makes sense.
00:42:13
Speaker
He said that the car dealership computer had to physically be turned on and image access images accessed in person. like Remote access wouldn't get... Yeah, i don't I mean, I don't see that i don't see this used car lot being like super right high tech. Right.
00:42:28
Speaker
So he also said that evidence of Tor browser being used on that computer, but deleted just before her the device was seized. And then he kind of explains a Tor browser.
00:42:39
Speaker
Well, he does explain it. I'm kind of going to explain it. Basically, a Tor browser relays internet signal to three different places. So it goes through more so through more steps of the process and thereby it' harder to trace? Right. Right.
00:42:56
Speaker
Right. And it's not it's not going to.com websites like normal, typical, like.org. It's.onion websites, which is the dark web.
00:43:08
Speaker
So he also says, like, not everything that goes on with a Tor browser is illegal. It could be used if someone's, like, super worried about their privacy. In and of itself, having the Tor browser is not so yeah illegal. It's just indicative of, yeah, what what might be being Correct.
00:43:24
Speaker
It's what you do with it. um He says only eight devices were seized in the raid. Usually in federal raids like this, he says 30 to 40 seized. was going to say, it just doesn't seem like they'd even have that.
00:43:39
Speaker
Right. possibly However, it's a small car lot in Arkansas. So there was no no child sex abuse material found on Josh's MacBook or iPhone, which are his personal devices. Right.
00:43:52
Speaker
And it was only found on the Linux side of the HP CarLock computer. They ask about the router again. And Fattrell says, you know, an IP address comes from a router, not from a device.
00:44:05
Speaker
But he didn't do forensic investigation, investigating on the router because the computer was set up in a way that he didn't need to. like everything's on computer. Nothing's on the router.
00:44:15
Speaker
Yeah. So it's non-applicable. but Right. but But they're trying to confuse the jury. All right. So this is also kind of confusing and I don't super understand it. But so there's this app called Rufus that creates what they're calling bootable thumb drives.
00:44:31
Speaker
So it's basically like you can put your computer and the contents of the computer on a thumb drive. Okay, the contents of the entire computer. Like, okay. I think so.
00:44:42
Speaker
So there was something like this used on May 13th, 2019. And the suggestion is that's how the Tor browser was installed with one of these bootable thumb drives. Okay. And they're basically setting up a claim that someone else plugged it in.
00:44:56
Speaker
Like somebody else set it up. If it's a thumb drive, anybody can use it. ah Okay. um Defense argues that the Tor browser was used for privacy reasons because Josh is a celebrity.
00:45:09
Speaker
However, you would think he'd use different passwords in that case. They asked defense in cross-examination, asked Fattrell if he analyzed the phones of the other employees. He said no because he didn't have access to those phones. The warrant wasn't for other people's phones.
00:45:25
Speaker
In redirect, he testifies to the prosecution that routers don't keep useful information. They just track devices that are connected. Like, investigating the router doesn't matter. Stop asking about the router.
00:45:38
Speaker
Right. Only the person using Tor on the Carlock computer could access the images. It's like, please leave me alone.
00:45:50
Speaker
It is not possible. He also this and this I had a question about, I guess, remote access is not possible unless someone was physically in the room with the computer to turn it on. Oh, yeah. that yeah So like, yeah.
00:46:03
Speaker
Right. But that you would be able to see what the remote accessor is looking at. So like if I turn my computer on and it said Joy's, i don't know, somebody's like access to your computer, i could see what you were doing. Yeah.
00:46:18
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Yeah, I could be like, i don't know why you're looking at my script. but You're trying to sneak peek. That's all I have here. We're supposed to be spontaneous when we're talking. Don't look at the script ahead of time, Joy. Exactly. This is a surprise.
Prosecution's Use of IBLP Standards
00:46:36
Speaker
for trial also testified that there was pick a photograph taken and it's hard to see but you could see it and in the in the picture that was taken you can see allegedly josh's reflection on the car lock computer screen 45 minutes before the tour was downloaded so it's like it's not ideal but like it's definitely him
00:47:04
Speaker
So poor Fatrell is done. Then they call Clint Bronham. um This is somebody that Josh knew in the early 2000s during the Holt campaign.
00:47:17
Speaker
And he also works in cybersecurity. He testified that Josh was a, quote, power user in terms of computers. So he was a tech techie kid, kate like techie guy now. like Yeah.
00:47:29
Speaker
Yes. He was more skilled than the average user. um He testified about a conversation about installing a partition to get around Covenant Eyes in the early 2010s. So he was already doing this stuff.
00:47:44
Speaker
When he was younger or knowing how to do it. and Okay. Yeah. Which also means he knew that a Linux partition has a specific use. Yep. There's a reason to need it. And it's not like a Mac versus PC type of thing.
00:47:57
Speaker
Yeah. Which I think the defense was also trying to, it's just like, they're just trying to confuse juries. Yeah. well it's not hard with technical technical things really it's not hard to confuse degrees right um during cross-examination the defense asked clint if josh knew how to write code and he's like we never i was never specifically told he could but i think it's just like he's not that good the computer he can't even write code we've never really talked about that Right.
00:48:28
Speaker
So Jim Holtz is called, but it is really only to talk ah about this conversation. They don't ask him much, much more. And it's just to say he was present at this conversation with Josh and Clint. He did hear them talking about the Linux partition set up.
00:48:47
Speaker
And basically it's two witnesses are saying this happened. ah But... It is important in the IBLP that two members have to witness something to verify it.
00:49:00
Speaker
So if somebody says like, my brother touched me inappropriately and nobody else was around to witness it, the IBLP says that's not a good enough standard to call the police or do anything about it. Two people have to see it.
00:49:15
Speaker
And I just think it's leaving Eden podcast said this. It's just like so fitting that they had two witnesses confirming this conversation happened.
00:49:25
Speaker
Yeah. Mm hmm. Wow. Yeah. um So next they call Bobby Holt. That was all we had to hear from Jim, thankfully. She's kind of the star. She's the last witness. They saved her for last. They knew what they were doing.
00:49:42
Speaker
So at this time, the jury was told that they were going to hear evidence of past incidents, not on like not any anything that he was on trial for or convicted of.
00:49:53
Speaker
But the jury could decide how much weight to give this testimony in terms of judging the trial the crime he's on trial on. So they're kind of given the caveat that this isn't, you know, if you do with this what you will.
00:50:06
Speaker
But remember, he wasn't he wasn't convicted. Yeah. So it's the same, you know, the same testimony basically at the pretrial hearing. Jim,
Testimonies and Family Roles
00:50:14
Speaker
Bob and Michelle were close friends with their family.
00:50:17
Speaker
Josh and their daughter were betrothed. Josh confessed in March 20 or March 30th, 2003. two thousand and three That he had touched four of his sisters inappropriately from the ages of 12 to 15.
00:50:31
Speaker
And the youngest victim was only four at the time. They gave Bobby kind of the more severe details in later years. But she takes ah great dig at Jim Bob when she is asked by the prosecution she remembers the March 30th, 2003 conversation. And she said, quote, you don't forget something like that.
00:50:54
Speaker
And the prosecution rests by saying people don't use Tor browsers to sell cars on the dark web. Nice. Sums it up. And that is the prosecution's case.
00:51:07
Speaker
So next episode, we're going to talk of the defense case. All right. Prosecution's sounding pretty good right now. sounds like they have a pretty solid case. Yeah. If I'm remembering correctly, the defense case is annoying and kind of boring. Yeah.
00:51:22
Speaker
They usually are. We'll hear the word router a lot again.
00:51:28
Speaker
All right. Well, that's great. Yeah. So what do you think so far? It's cool to go through. is a little harder to stay up with notes on a past trial that you did not watch or follow at the time. But yes, it is all coming together. It seems 100% like he is guilty. Yeah.
00:51:50
Speaker
But I can understand where they're trying to poke the holes. but Yeah. No, I think the prosecution's pretty smart and, like, they're trying to put the puzzle pieces together. And, yeah. and it You've solidified before. Exactly. Exactly.
00:52:06
Speaker
I'm not sure how I feel about Anna. Yeah. I feel terrible for her. And I also feel so angry that she could let, don't could at least continue to, to, I mean, she's, she's stayed.
00:52:20
Speaker
Yeah. Is she an enabler, I guess. And yeah goes back to that. So yeah, I still am. I'm still on the fence. Yeah, I think everybody is. um I think she would have a lot more support if she left, but she doesn't think she does.
00:52:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think she thinks she's trapped. And I think, you know, to some extent she is. She has seven children. She is, um I think, being supported by Jim Bob. That's very scary.
00:52:50
Speaker
But she has had a lot of people say, we will help you. But you have to choose to take it. All right. So they're still married and they're still visiting. It's up for and everyone to make their own ah judgment on that. Exactly. You feel for Yeah.
00:53:07
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. All right. Thank you. right. like We'll, yeah, wrap it up here. We'll come back next time for more trial. Take care, guys. Have a good one. All right.
00:53:19
Speaker
Bye. Bye.
00:53:28
Speaker
you