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Ruby Franke & Jodi Hildebrandt, Part 6
52 Plays10 days ago
We are back talking about the Hulu docuseries Devil in the Family: The Fall of Ruby Franke. Today, we are talking about the second episode in the series.
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow'
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I'm here with my Aunt Joy. We are two neurodivergent ladies who obsess about various topics. Joy is autistic and I have ADHD and we are letting our hyperfixations fly.
Ruby Frankie Docuseries Discussion
00:00:15
Speaker
Today we are fixating on Ruby Frankie. Music
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome back to our sixth part in our half done ah about a year ago, half revisited now series on Ruby and Jodi. They're too interesting not to go back to.
00:00:40
Speaker
i know. My gosh. We're going to be we're walking through the docuseries. We're going to talk about episode two today called Distortion.
Research Sources and Internet Issues
00:00:47
Speaker
um i do need to give a quick caveat. Our Internet at our house has been very wonky lately.
00:00:54
Speaker
It seems like everybody who uses my internet provider around my area is having similar experiences. So I'm sorry if things get a little cut out or weird or I get a robot voice briefly.
00:01:07
Speaker
There's literally nothing we can do about it. And I was just saying to Joy that it keeps happening at work too. And I work at a library. And when the public Wi-Fi cuts out, the public is not happy.
00:01:18
Speaker
Yeah. So before we jump in, going to say the sources again. as with last week, the main source is Devil in the Family, The Fall of Ruby Frankie, the docuseries from Hulu.
00:01:30
Speaker
But I do want to mention the other sources again that I used simply because they're going to kind of trickle in. And I don't want to use any of their content without mentioning them. ah So I used...
00:01:44
Speaker
I used Law & Crime Network, Hidden True Crime,
Recap of Ruby Frankie Controversies
00:01:49
Speaker
Mormon Stories, Someplace Underneath, Salt Lake City Tribune, Mother Jones, Time Magazine, the books Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakauer, My Story by Elizabeth Smart, and The House of My Mother by Sherry Franke and Wikipedia. And my source is Nikki.
00:02:12
Speaker
Listen, you watch the series too. I just forget it. All right. So we wrapped last time talking about how the video where Chad said that he had lost his bedroom for seven months led to calls of investigations from viewers, calls to CPS, calls to stop the family vlog.
00:02:36
Speaker
They were looking at Ruby for viewers were looking at Ruby ah for child abuse.
Ruby's Content Shift Post-Cancellation
00:02:42
Speaker
So that is where we left off. In episode two, we learned that there was a constant decline in viewers and comments were all negative on any new videos.
00:02:50
Speaker
Kevin says they lost 90% their income. Which I will say, like, if you even if you're making $100,000 a month, suddenly losing 90% of that, like, overnight would be shocking.
00:03:02
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, and I'll say, you know, since we've been doing our podcasting and YouTubing, we make no money at all. And still, when you see the numbers go down, there's still a sense of, don't know, panic might be.
00:03:18
Speaker
You get a little, like, a little stab. Yeah, yeah. So I can only imagine if our income was tied to it. Oh my gosh, I know. A lawyer for the family encouraged Ruby to make an apology video, and she said, quote, over my dead body.
00:03:34
Speaker
She doubled down and wanted to show the world what real parenting looked like.
Ruby's Potential for Redemption
00:03:39
Speaker
She's a stubborn one. Yep. So Ruby's content drastically changed after they were, quote, canceled.
00:03:46
Speaker
She went from this, like, fun, happy mom who was, like, playing with the kids and doing things to a serious religious teacher. I feel like she could have handled this better. yeah. She could have handled it better.
00:03:57
Speaker
Okay. that was That was silly. But, i'd see, I think if she was a little more open-minded and her ego was a little more in control, she...
00:04:08
Speaker
At this point, I think she could have pivoted a bit and admitted, you know, her shortcomings and that focused more on herself and dealing with, you know, aging kids and empty nesting and yeah how she's adjusting to this new life.
00:04:25
Speaker
Yeah. She didn't, but I think she could have salvaged it at this point. Yeah, I do too. Maybe not on the same level, maybe only $50,000 a month.
Kevin's Role and Accountability Issues
00:04:36
Speaker
How can they live on that? But i I think she did have options and she could have if she had opened her mind. Yeah. And I think um she told herself this was i showing what a good parent does when really it was she couldn't find the humility within herself to make the dang apology video. yeah yeah And I think that would have I think that is like such a huge that could have been such a pivotal moment in this.
00:05:04
Speaker
yeah if She had made another decision and she had made the apology video. Now, I think it possibly could have delayed some of the inevitable, but I don't thing i don't think that switch would have been as drastic and as sudden.
00:05:18
Speaker
i agree.
Brandon Patrick on Jodi's Manipulative Practices
00:05:20
Speaker
Well, and we see that, like, Kevin says that the viewers were furious at them, and she didn't care. She kept making the content that now she wanted to make.
00:05:30
Speaker
wonder how Kevin was feeling at this point. I mean, I know on ah on a base level what he was, but... Yeah. I mean, i think I think his whole story is that he would do anything she wanted him to do. Yeah.
00:05:42
Speaker
And so I think, I mean, overall, and we can talk about it at the end when we get to episode three, but I think he has a very difficult time taking accountability. That I also think that moment when the lawyer asked her to make the apology video And he could have stepped up and said, I'll do it.
00:06:01
Speaker
I will make an apology video. he could He had a lot of choices he could make that his claims of putting his head in the sand for a lot of it isn't acceptable.
00:06:12
Speaker
Agreed. So now we go back to talking to Brandon Patrick. He is the LDS therapist. that worked a bit with Jodi. um He said that she would prey on her own clients and would profit on her clients' pain.
00:06:26
Speaker
So go back to his history a little bit. In 2010, he had been shadowing Jodi for about a year. unpaid because she wouldn't pay him and he said that she was always very angry toward men and that he over and over would watch couples be torn apart and the filmmakers asked why he stayed working with her and he basically said he stayed with her to keep tabs on her which ah is also weird Yeah.
00:06:54
Speaker
I appreciate it. I think it was ah good call, but it didn't. He doesn't. I don't think he ever says he like reported it to anybody. Knowing what we know about the LDS church and how they continue to platform her. Probably nothing would have come from that
Jodi's Connections Program and Influence
00:07:06
Speaker
anyway.
00:07:06
Speaker
But. And it's one of those things in retrospect, it's easy to say. Right. Exactly. Maybe when you're in the midst of it, a little harder with ah somebody who's well-respected in the um industry. Yeah.
00:07:18
Speaker
But I mean, I also see how like she, I can see how for her making more problems for these couples or even enhancing their and bringing attention to their pain. Well, that's that's more money for her, right? Like she doesn't want, I mean, Oh, yeah, absolutely. Better um is lucrative.
00:07:39
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So it is a conflict of interest, obviously of some sort. Yeah. um So in 2011, put 2011 ish in my notes. Jody launches her program connections with the X that I hate.
00:07:54
Speaker
C O N N E X I O N S. Yeah. It was billed as a solution to pain, depression, anxiety, any of those hard things in life. Jodi had the formula to fix it.
00:08:06
Speaker
She didn't have, within Connections, she didn't do any one-on-one sessions. She had larger group sessions, which made more money than the one-on-one sessions. Brandon says that her whole em MO was basically to exploit Mormon anxiety. That to be with God, you had to be pure, sinless, and perfect.
00:08:26
Speaker
Which, of course, nobody can ever be. Right. And also, you know, these doing it. Yes, it's about more money, but it's also a group think, you know, once. Yeah. and People don't want to be the one to step out and say, wait, to question, wait, wait, wait, question her um authority or question her what her what what she's saying when you're in a group. And yeah. And we talked a lot about this in the um when we talk did the series before.
00:08:50
Speaker
i think Jodi was becoming a cult leader. Oh, for sure. And especially in seeing in the docuseries, Kevin and especially Chad, how brainwashed they were.
00:09:04
Speaker
um Chad, I give a lot more grace to because he was a child and didn't have his own children to try to be protecting. However, I do think that she was leading a cult or was in the beginning of leading a cult. Yeah.
00:09:19
Speaker
And you've studied cults more than I have. And I have a very hard time with the concept of cults because I am such a super independent thinker to the point that's probably negative I don't fit in with a lot of people. So I'm not saying that as just a positive thing. I'm just... It is hard for me to even picture how this happens.
00:09:41
Speaker
But what it is, I guess, is it's the idea that I can fix everything for you. Yeah. And basically... you can stop making decisions and trying to work through it because I'm going to, I'm going to take care of it for you. Yeah. And, and it's an easy thing to to want to believe. I mean, and the same thing happens with authoritarian, um, like government regimes.
00:10:01
Speaker
yeah. I can fix it all for you so that you guys just, you don't have to worry. I got Exactly. However, if you step out of line, there's going to be consequences and you won't be allowed to, to reap the benefits that I've created.
00:10:15
Speaker
and there is a monthly And there is a monthly fee. Yes. Yeah. I need your money for this. I can't accomplish these things if you don't give me your money. I can't save the world. For free.
00:10:27
Speaker
Having said that, Jodi created a connections community. was a bunch of people, like their neighbors, all of these people were involved in this community. Yeah. Brannan describes as church with Jodi within the Mormon church.
00:10:43
Speaker
So it was like a small church within a church where Jodi was the savior, the prophet, God. And it seems like that overtakes, that becomes Jodi as God becomes more important in these people's lives than the church.
00:11:02
Speaker
Yes. Because the church hasn't fixed their kids, but Jodi has these steps to do it. Yep. Yep. And it's within your ideology still.
Ruby and Kevin's Involvement in Connections
00:11:10
Speaker
But it's just going a little further. We got step this up.
00:11:13
Speaker
Yes. The real, the first guy, not doing it. No, but follow me and I'll show you what he needs you to do. Brandon said she'd figuratively pat you on the head if he brought someone into the group. It's like an MLM for sure.
00:11:28
Speaker
So Kevin was introduced at the group ah at a love versus lust workshop. Already we see like the real like demonization of men.
00:11:41
Speaker
Yeah, and and't even know how to express it. At this point in the marriage, like I can see the love versus lusting being an issue when you're young and first meeting people and first dating.
00:11:51
Speaker
When you're at this point in a marriage, shoot, if you still have the lust, more power to you. You know what I mean? Yeah, right? that's That should be a great thing in your marriage.
00:12:02
Speaker
But... In this sense, lust is a sin. So Jodi said, quote, if a man says he doesn't lust, he's lying. So now we're equating feeling any sort of sexual feeling as lying.
00:12:16
Speaker
So that adds like this level of distrust in the marriage right off the bat. Like, oh, he's lying to me. What do you mean he doesn't lust? Of course he lusts. He's lying if he says he doesn't. But at the same time, again, it's no-win situation. But otherwise, you have a husband who's checked out and not interested in his wife that way, which that's not that's not good either. So, yeah.
00:12:38
Speaker
Again. Now, I do wonder, so in the LDS community, you're done making children at this point, right? So do you do you think that that has part, is part of the reason why this can be used?
00:12:52
Speaker
I mean... being like kind of perimenopausal maybe could this be used is the timing of this discussion maybe have something to do with with that like women ready to be backing away from it. to But, you know, I mean, yeah, um because, well, especially also because Jodi is a little bit older. So that would actually like she had adult children at the time. That would kind of make sense.
00:13:18
Speaker
I mean, I would, you would want your ah spouse to be lusting after you. And it's crazy that that that that would seem be seen as a negative at any point in marriage, quite honestly. Yeah.
00:13:29
Speaker
But again, it's it's the ah it's that language development and and discrepancies that she created, making lust the bad thing. She said that love is giving and lust is taking, which is obviously selfish. yeah Kevin said that the women in the room were on the edge of their seats.
00:13:47
Speaker
Keep in mind, women traditionally in this faith are told that they are there to do whatever the men need. The men are the ones who are leading the family. They need the support of their wife in every single way. And now there's this woman making the men feel real uncomfortable about that.
00:14:06
Speaker
And empowering the woman. Yeah. And I think some of these women are really liking that. Kevin, however, said, quote, this feels like a man-hating club. This is a cult. Thank you, Kevin.
00:14:18
Speaker
Yep. For realizing that and then still doing all the things.
00:14:24
Speaker
um You had a moment of clarity. Why did you not stop? Yeah. Kevin was not interested. He didn't want to go back. He didn't want to do anything else. And Paige Hanna in the series said that they were asked and then did put a ton of pressure on Kevin to join.
00:14:40
Speaker
So not only is Kevin believing he needs to do whatever his wife wants him to do so he can stay in her good graces. Now the community members and his friends are telling him that he should be a part of this community.
00:14:56
Speaker
So I will give him that. That is a lot of pressure to stand up to, especially as we've seen, there's not a lot of maybe backbone to stand up to that.
00:15:07
Speaker
And I still think this has to do with Paige or the Hannahs. Wanting to be closer to the quote unquote fame um of the Frankies. Yeah.
00:15:18
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, Paige and the, hand i I can't remember her husband's name. we're We've talked about a different Hannah in South Carolina. So his name keeps coming in my head.
00:15:29
Speaker
It's not him. um But they were like the golden couple. And I think Paige was like, yeah, if I get the Frankies in, that just boosts me up higher.
00:15:41
Speaker
yep So connections validated certain things that bothered Ruby for a long time. She believed it to be a roadmap to a happy place in their marriage. And Kevin got on board.
00:15:52
Speaker
He was invited to an online men's group, which is ah ended up being just a support group for addictions to anything and everything. So it's mostly men who are viewing pornography.
00:16:04
Speaker
They were not addicted to pornography. They were viewing it ah aside our society. really needs to evaluate the way we use the word addictions and oh I've overused it at this point.
00:16:19
Speaker
So this is super interesting. And this is why I meant wanted to mention, I didn't take notes on it, but I wanted to mention the podcast someplace underneath. They are right now doing a series about Mormonism, like period. And it's huge.
00:16:31
Speaker
um They realized they kept covering these cases that were like related, ended up having a link to Mormonism. So they were like, well, we just need to figure out why. Like they didn't intend on like doing all these cases and then being like, oh there's a Mormon link here and this one and this one weird.
00:16:47
Speaker
But they interviewed um the host of Mormon Stories podcast. And he, I wish I had taken notes on this, but he, um, Basically explains neurologically what the difference kind of between an addiction, like a chemical addiction to a chemical, to alcohol, to some sort of drug is different.
00:17:07
Speaker
Hits a different spot in your brain than like a compulsion to watch pornography. Right. Those are different things. And you can't have a chemical addiction to something like that.
Jodi's Control Over Followers' Lives
00:17:22
Speaker
You can have a compulsion, which is different and treat should be treated differently because there are different parts of your brain. He laid it out really cool. I would like...
00:17:32
Speaker
Go find that. They'll say it better than me. Because to me, once you put the word addiction in, it takes it out of your hands. It's no longer within your control.
00:17:43
Speaker
So it's it's an excuse for that behavior is what I think. Yeah. And there's like a big push to change like alcohol abuse. It's, you know, addictions like that to change it to substance abuse disorder.
00:17:58
Speaker
Because it is a disorder that affects your brain. and And there is a genetic part to it. There's things like that. There's not like a genetic component to watching pornography too much.
00:18:09
Speaker
So it there yeah they have to be separate. I think absolutely people can have problems with these things. If you're feeling like you have a compulsion to like you can't go to bed if you don't watch porn first and it's bad for you. It's impacting you negatively.
00:18:25
Speaker
Go to therapy. You don't need to go to AA. So I'm hoping I'm not invalidating anybody, but that is just like neurologically there's a difference. They're both serious. Sorry. They're both serious. I just think we overuse that word.
00:18:40
Speaker
Yeah. As ah a catch all of sorts. Yeah. ah Addiction has the connotation that you can't control anything. And in a fit and really it's supposed to be.
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah. In a physiological. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. Back to the group. Kevin said that Jody would shame the men in the group for any behaviors.
00:19:01
Speaker
um And we talked about in our series before the men in this group was like men like Kevin who are just like regular people could be in a group with, like, a child predator.
00:19:12
Speaker
And they were being treated like they had the same sin. So, at the beginning, Jodi would praise Kevin to the other men during the group sessions as someone who represented a real man.
00:19:25
Speaker
And Kevin basically says this is when their marriage was, like... The happiest. Ruby looked at him the way he always wanted her to, and their relationship improved.
00:19:37
Speaker
They started using Jodi's language together, the very special words she's developed, and they were the the whole family was happier. Sherry and Chad say at this time it was like a happy time in their family.
00:19:51
Speaker
Jodi knew exactly how to manipulate them each to get them to give them each what they needed, wanted out of their their relationship. At the beginning. Absolutely.
00:20:02
Speaker
At the beginning. yes Hook them in. Which is what ah high control group leaders do. Make these big promises and show you what it could be like. So Ruby trained as a coach for connections pretty early in her time in the group.
Community Expansion of Jodi's Influence
00:20:15
Speaker
And pretty quickly, Kevin and Ruby became the face and the voice of connections. um Some people were kind of surprised at this because they weren't in it that long before all of a sudden they were like the top of the pyramid.
00:20:28
Speaker
um So people in the neighborhood started getting suggested to join ah connections group. So Sherry's friend and teacher, ah the woman's name is Tressa Hayward.
00:20:41
Speaker
And the husband is Ruel. I think he was the teacher and she was his wife, but they were neighbors. Sherry had a deep relationship with them. They play a huge part in the book. They're not mentioned as much in the series, but um this couple were recommended to join a connections group from three separate friends.
00:20:58
Speaker
And because they knew the Frankies and Sherry so well, this created kind of a trust that was like, OK, if all these people are suggesting it, we'll join. They pretty quickly knew it wasn't a good situation.
00:21:10
Speaker
And so what mattered to Jodi at this time was that she had her coach's influence over understanding what they were teaching. She didn't super care about like the patients themselves.
00:21:22
Speaker
Or the clients. If she could have. It's like an MLM. If she can have the coaches. Influencing the people below them. She didn't have to worry about the people below.
00:21:33
Speaker
The coaches got it. Ultimately Jodi wanted power. Fame and money. And the coaches. yeah The coaches paid a higher. yeah Percentage. Higher fees on a regular basis. yeah and then if they could convert more.
00:21:48
Speaker
Lower level. Yeah. Participants. I guess the money will come. Yeah. Well, and and the clients she chose to treat... How she interacted with them were based on their social and economic status. She wasn't like treating a real rich guy ah badly her saying he was a sinner.
00:22:09
Speaker
He got Kevin in by saying, this is how you're a man. Was all and manipulation. At this time, Ruby went all in and changed eight passengers to moms of truth.
00:22:21
Speaker
I mean, much against the advice of her business manager, I believe. Yeah. And I think the family, like, I think Kevin didn't want her to do this, but of course he didn't stop her.
00:22:34
Speaker
Because she had a great, she had a ton of viewers, but they're not going to be the the same audience. You know, you're not going to keep the same audience interest, even though you have that viewership.
Ruby's Belief in Jodi's Divine Inspiration
00:22:45
Speaker
Yeah. um I do think probably some people went along to be like, what's happening? Like, yeah, car wreck. Car wreck. Yeah, I agree. And this becomes is was this Jodi's plan all along?
00:23:00
Speaker
Was Jodi close to Ruby? Yeah. To get this platform. Yeah, I think 100%. I think there was more. I think there eventually was more, but like 100%. I think this was the initial plan was to get the platform.
00:23:14
Speaker
Yeah. um Because she transferred everything to Jodi's business. And the Moms of Truth Facebook group invited everyone in the neighborhood to join.
00:23:25
Speaker
And some of the neighbors in the series are like, yeah, I joined and it was wackadoo. And I just kept watching, just like I said. A car crash. um So on one of the Connections videos or Moms of Truth videos, Ruby said she left YouTube to save her kids.
00:23:41
Speaker
We've seen this clip quite a lot. um She's crying, sitting next to Jodi, who lovingly puts her hand on Ruby's leg to comfort her as she's saying her kids were becoming worldly and entitled and she had to leave YouTube to save them.
00:23:56
Speaker
And she really believed she was part of God's work. Not to save them from embarrassment, maintain their privacy. that's not what was That's not what she had to save them from.
00:24:08
Speaker
Yes. So this part is really what spiked my hyperfixation again. Because we've seen these same patterns in a couple other like really big media sensation-y cases related to the Mormon church.
00:24:26
Speaker
In 2020, Kevin talks about all of these terrible things that happened. COVID hit. There was a 5.8 earthquake in Salt Lake City. And with the murder of George Floyd that summer, there was a ton of sudden civil unrest.
00:24:44
Speaker
There is this this Mormon belief that things like this are ushering in the end of days. And that means you get to go have your celestial kingdom, whatever.
00:24:58
Speaker
If the world ends... The Mormons are saved and the devout, devout Mormons are saved the best. So Kevin and Ruby truly believed the world was ending and they were excited to be living through this like crazy tumultuous time. Yeah.
00:25:15
Speaker
Two things. If the world was ending in most, would you really want to still be there? Right. Would you want to be the survivor of this world catastrophe? Yep.
00:25:26
Speaker
Well. Number one. Number two, what is, mean, there's so many different religions and different cult groups and that have these various dates about the world ending. What is the draw?
00:25:41
Speaker
Yeah. I guess it's to say, except for you guys. Yeah. You guys will know the secret to living through it. Or to um making it to heaven or the good place.
00:25:53
Speaker
If we're talking Kristen Bell. How are are we not? Are we not catching on that the world is not that each and one of these dates, the world continues.
00:26:04
Speaker
Well, in that vein, Ruby and Kevin believed they were on the right side of history and that everyone around them was going to burn. Again, do you really want to be a survivor of everyone else burning? But it means you're not.
00:26:17
Speaker
Yeah, I guess if you've got an f and if you've got enough food prepped and stored away. Which we talked about, they do. You can have canned beans for a long time. Yeah. So Ruby starts doing kind of prepper stuff showing like, there's my food storage. And we talked a ton about this. There's this, there is a precedent in the LDS church of like the food storage and being prepared.
00:26:46
Speaker
And the kind of mainstream ones say it's like, yeah, you'd be prepared for emergencies. like Power goes out for three days. Yeah. More extreme ones are like, yeah, we're preparing for the end of the world. We're going be the only ones here.
00:27:00
Speaker
Even in Utah, even on a like governmental level, like there they have stores of grain. And and actually, Utah is known for having the, the ah you know, not even individuals, but the local governments and state governments for having the best storage of anywhere in the country.
00:27:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. um So they truly believed that Christ was returning, that the world was going to end. And Jodi was educating people about the world ending and how to survive, which led Ruby to believing that Jodi was actually called by God.
00:27:32
Speaker
And she was meant to do God's will through her influence of the YouTube channel. So yeah, Ruby truly believed that Jodi was inspired.
Jodi's Supernatural Claims and Influence
00:27:43
Speaker
Amazing. Uh-huh. So May 2021.
00:27:48
Speaker
Jodi called Ruby and said that she was being haunted by hooded shadow figures at night. Okay, we gotta stop here for a second. Because I do not understand.
00:28:01
Speaker
Is this a manipulation ploy? Or is she really have... A psychiatric issue. I think it's manipulation. What? i If I'm being honest.
00:28:12
Speaker
I think it's... I think this was complete manipulation. Okay. I mean, I just have always wondered because, mean, she was very... i think there's for sure stuff going on.
00:28:23
Speaker
Yeah. Maybe on some level she convinced herself this was true. But she did the same thing to the Hannahs. that There's just... This just is such a weird...
00:28:37
Speaker
When we get to this part of the of the story, there's so many weird parts, but this just sort of boggles my mind right here. Yeah. And the Frankie's response. And I mean, I guess before even the Hannah's response to care for her.
00:28:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of, and we'll get to it in subsequent episodes, but there's a lot of and kind of fundamentalist Mormon doctrine.
00:29:03
Speaker
And maybe, and some not fundamental, like some straight Mormon doctrine that explains these things away. But would the leader, should the leader be possessed?
00:29:15
Speaker
Like, it seems like a bad thing. Yes, because here's why. That shows that these forces are so powerful. They can get to these inspired people and they need more protection. Okay.
00:29:28
Speaker
Because they are God's chosen. So they're being attacked more. Thank you. Actually, that's a great explanation. And I have always, never made sense to you. I'm upset that I know that. Whoa, you're so good at cult stuff.
00:29:41
Speaker
Thank you.
00:29:44
Speaker
Kevin said that Jodi said, quote, Satan had it out for her. Kevin and Ruby believed her. I don't want to gloss over that Kevin believed her too. And there's nothing, there's nothing worse than Satan had happened. Not out for you.
00:29:56
Speaker
That just sucks. I know it's rough. It's just sucks. They were truly expecting something big to happen. Like they were expecting a catastrophic event to stop the worlds from turning.
00:30:08
Speaker
And that Jody being haunted by these figures was proof that that was happening. So they immediately went to Jody's house to help her. And Kevin was shocked at this huge, beautiful mansion.
00:30:22
Speaker
He said the tour of the house took two hours. So in the time that Jodi was showing off her home, she wasn't being haunted by hooded figures, apparently.
00:30:32
Speaker
He commented on the layout of the house as being strange, but he said it was a four-level home and two of those levels were for storage for emergencies and food. Two of the levels of that huge, crazy mansion.
00:30:46
Speaker
We're for prepping. And yeah we we yeah, we went on to to see that the actual specifics and the layout of the house. And it it is crazy. And I have absolutely no idea why one person would need a house this large. Nope.
00:31:00
Speaker
But yeah apparently was very impressive. So while there, Kevin describes some of the weird phenomenon he experienced. I should say quote phenomenon he experienced.
00:31:12
Speaker
We did talk about this in the original series we did, but in the docuseries, he says there was a loud crash in the basement and when they went to investigate it, there was nothing there.
00:31:23
Speaker
he saw a handprint on a pane of glass on a window pane that was like too high for human to reach and he insisted it looked like fingers and they he provided the picture and it just looks like a smudge it looks like a bird flew into a window i didn't see a hand okay yeah and now i just said that that that the last part was the weirdest thing okay this is really weird too that kevin bought the buy-in i know and i think it says so much about what psychological manipulation can do to you that you because if you actually watch he when he was talking one of his interviews with with authorities he's talking about this and he even after the fact after all this happened he is still adamant that
00:32:15
Speaker
That something was out of sorts. That was. Yeah. He insists that there was something fully unnatural. Yeah. And I think at least at the time of the series, there were, i will say there were a bunch of interviews after the series that it does seem like he's a little more.
00:32:36
Speaker
aware of everything there's like a bunch of people magazine um interviews with him and chad and he's kind of more firm and like yeah this was wrong i was wrong i made mistakes we're getting into like so i will kind of give them that that today seems a little bit more with it i don't know what he believes today but certainly at the time of the series i think he still believed it Yeah, it took time. It took time for him to to change his thinking. and Yeah. um But what I think kept him believing it is that Jodi's bishop kept coming over and blessing her in the house.
00:33:11
Speaker
So if an actual authority from the church is coming over, who are they to say that it isn't real when the church is saying, yeah, it is. Yeah. And that's strange. I don't understand. Yeah. so when the So when the bishop couldn't handle the house, Ruby suggested that Jodi heal at the Frankie home.
00:33:30
Speaker
And Ruby did this because she truly, as I've said, believed that the second coming was imminent because Jodi was chosen and would play such an important role in the end times.
Jodi's Move into the Frankie Household
00:33:43
Speaker
And with that, Ruby had Jodi move into Sherry's bedroom. but Before Sherry was even all the way out. I didn't know this until the book.
00:33:55
Speaker
You know, I didn't either. Like, they didn't say that anywhere. That she took over ah teenager's bedroom. So Sherry left for college, thankfully, two weeks later.
00:34:06
Speaker
And, like, as she was in the docuseries, she was like, you know, it was fine. I was leaving. wasn't too concerned about Yeah.
00:34:15
Speaker
And Chad also said because of the high respect he had for Jodi, he also wasn't concerned. He didn't recognize there's a huge conflict of interest because Jodi was still his therapist at this time.
00:34:28
Speaker
ah he He said he was afraid. He was scared for his little brother and sister who were starting to like get a bit rude and talk back. Kind of the same thing he did when he was rebelling against his mom a bit.
00:34:41
Speaker
And... Because Jodi interpreted this as evil, Chad was like, okay, having her in the house will fix them before it gets to be a problem. Like it was for him.
00:34:52
Speaker
However, the family kept it a secret that Jodi was living there. Because therapists shouldn't be living with their patients. Oh, that's crazy.
00:35:03
Speaker
I know. So at this time, while Sherry was in college, she started to look into Jodi and found that she wasn't actually a licensed therapist. Her children didn't talk to her. and in fact, her license had been revoked.
00:35:16
Speaker
And there were story after story about the family she tore apart. She tried to talk to her brother and father about this. And Chad thought people were attacking Jodi because she was so morally correct.
00:35:30
Speaker
And Kevin straight said they just shut Sherry down because Jodi told them they would find this stuff if they Googled her because troubled people kept attacking her. Sherry amazes me because she saw it right from the start. And yeah how frustrating would it be to...
00:35:50
Speaker
to see something, to understand something and not be able to communicate or get through to those you are closest to and you love the most. Yep. Especially in this case, I would assume for her, Chad and Kevin.
00:36:04
Speaker
And I will say as a bit of a teaser for where this is all going for our episodes, Tylee Ryan is the Sherry Frankie of the Chad DeBell-Laurie Vallow case.
00:36:17
Speaker
Yeah. And that is, yep, Tylee, I think, saw through everything. And in the end lost her life, but. Yep. And so when you get dissent in things like this, they ice the person out or remove them completely.
00:36:34
Speaker
So back to the weird things at the house. Kevin said just these crazy things were happening. Jodi would go into trances. She was like breathing heavily and speaking in these like weird voices, grunting, thrashing, hitting herself.
00:36:52
Speaker
They show a video of this and it's like the worst impression of the exorcist I've ever seen. It's just like, think she was just faking everything. it was just like, i think it was all manipulation.
00:37:03
Speaker
to take a lot of energy to keep that i get rid Or it didn't because like, I feel like she was
Family Dynamics and Jodi's Control
00:37:13
Speaker
like, ah, they did. This is what possessed looks like. And like the Frankies aren't like, well, we've, we know what possession looks like. We've seen the exorcist and it's, and so I feel like she's like at one point in the video, she just like,
00:37:26
Speaker
lowered her voice. that That was the guttural, terrifying voice. Yeah, she learned it from a movie.
00:37:37
Speaker
And they're and the that they're ah ah waiting on her hand and foot. and Yeah. so yeah Ruby believed Jodi was truly possessed and she and Kevin had to help her overcome this by casting out the evil spirits.
00:37:51
Speaker
Kevin would attempt to exorcise her. It's just insane. This just cracks me up. Why? How does Kevin get this ability? I don't know. i mean, there is, there is, again, the thing of, I forget what it's called. It's like the, ugh.
00:38:09
Speaker
more like the priest holder or something. There's, there's a way of framing the man and Mormonism as like the spiritual head, but like, that's also kind of a supernatural spiritual head of the home as like the husband has been given these God ordained gifts as the head of the households.
00:38:27
Speaker
Like there's like, there's a thing of it, but I don't know. Yeah. And I'm sure, I mean, you know what? I guess it's a sign of, ah assigned a pseudo sign of respect for him because he seems to, at first, eat it up. Right. And and and not mind that he has these.
00:38:46
Speaker
Yeah. He's the only one that can save her. Ruby said he could save her. Yeah. So he, yeah ah again, straight like movie stuff, demanded the demons to depart.
00:38:56
Speaker
He said that the evil spirits would react to any different name he used for Jesus And that it looked like it hurt her when he would use like ah any name for Jesus.
00:39:10
Speaker
And he says he absolutely believed this was happening. um So when the demons did not depart and everything stayed the same, Ruby blamed Kevin for not being able to save Jodi and banned him from their bedroom.
00:39:27
Speaker
He was sent away from like any interaction with Jodi and Ruby at that time. At some point, did and some point didn't even like he was a band or ah he could only stay on one floor of the house. Or I guess he needed permission to go into certain areas of the house.
00:39:42
Speaker
Yep. Ruby started checking on Jodi at night when the possessions were at the worst. And because that was just too hard, she eventually just decided she was just going to stay in the room with Jodi to take care of her and they would share a bed.
00:39:57
Speaker
So while all of this is going on, Kevin was still attending the men's groups. And then the logistics of this was like, ah is she, is Jodi leading the men's groups together?
00:40:09
Speaker
In like Sherry's bedroom and Kevin's like in the kitchen watching and like being a part of the group on their computers, like on the Zoom call. And are the demons at bay for that period of time? Yes, of course.
00:40:24
Speaker
However, Kevin stopped being the golden man and started getting called out. He wasn't the star pupil anymore. And it was to the point that like others were uncomfortable with how much Kevin was being blamed as like the bad guy.
00:40:37
Speaker
And this is when um the Haywards that I mentioned earlier, the couple that Sherry developed this relationship with, left the group because Sherry started coming to their house more and more and telling them what was going on, sharing her fears with what was going on with the family, her concerns, and they truly became heroes for her.
00:40:58
Speaker
um So we'll get to that, but that they're a big deal.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah, thank God for them and and Sherry's life. Also, we need to... We need to address something and and that, and Sherry did address it in the book. um There was a lot of questions about whether Ruby and Jodi's relationship had taken on a romantic yeah feelings.
00:41:22
Speaker
um I do think they talk about it a little bit in the docuseries, but they only really ask Sherry, who has made her opinions very clear with her book. So she did she did feel yeah that they had. And it yeah it is interesting to that. This is the point now when Kevin's being definitely wedged out of the group and home. Yeah.
00:41:42
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So this time in the series, Chad was shown a video of the Christmas that Jody lived with them. And it's a video of Jodi singing karaoke.
00:41:53
Speaker
Everybody clapping very excitedly for what a good job she did. And he says he remembers this as being a fun Christmas, except that it was the Christmas that the youngest two didn't get any gifts as a punishment.
00:42:08
Speaker
they made They did make a video explaining why their youngest two children wouldn't get any gifts. And they basically said it was because they were numb to every other punishment and they had become worldly and they needed to be taught gratitude or I don't even remember. It was mumbo jumbo.
00:42:25
Speaker
But. It got to the point even that one of the neighbor's daughters wanted to give a gift to Ruby's youngest daughter. And Ruby took it away and made her throw it away.
00:42:37
Speaker
Sherry was home for this Christmas, which I can't even imagine. He'd come home for Christmas and it's so much has changed from probably August to December. And she said it felt just a physical heaviness in the home.
00:42:50
Speaker
um It was incredibly uncomfortable to open gifts in front of her little siblings. And yeah um this is when she does say she ended up sleeping with her sisters.
00:43:03
Speaker
and But at one point, she did have to go into her bedroom to get something. And she saw candles and massage oils. So back to what you're saying, she believes that they were lovers. Yeah.
00:43:18
Speaker
um Kevin did say that he thought it was much more than a friendship or a sisterhood. And he called it, quote, uncomfortably intimate. And Jodi wanted Ruby all to herself.
00:43:32
Speaker
I don't know if he believes that there was like a physical relationship at this point. I think probably today he does. But yeah, i was going to say, did he specify whether that is how he felt at the time?
00:43:43
Speaker
Or that is how he feels now retrospect? I think a lot of, I think this part was like retrospect. I think at the time he probably didn't. Okay. Yeah. Couldn't fathom this.
00:43:55
Speaker
Because he was buying into it. Yeah. Pretty much still at this point, even as it was turning against him. Right. So what kind of becomes of all of this is separation is ultimately a means of control for Jodi. Right.
00:44:08
Speaker
She isolated people from their families and she had to get Kevin out so she didn't have to share Ruby. And to get Ruby on board is Jodi would say things like, quote, separation is a principle of truth.
00:44:22
Speaker
So now we go back to our resident LDS therapist, Brannon, who said he started to get clients who came to him after being a client of Jodi to unravel what she had done to them.
00:44:36
Speaker
He knew Jodi was divorced and had strained relationships, at the very least, with her kids. And he felt like he was she was shaping her clients to basically become her.
00:44:51
Speaker
And in doing that, it was through isolation, not allowing anybody to question her. And that she ultimately had all the power. She was creating these little like mini Jodi minions.
00:45:04
Speaker
And in truth, she didn't live a life that is one to be emulated. Right. So back in the timeline of the series, ah Chad was kicked out of the home July 2022. He still deeply loved and respected Jodi.
00:45:20
Speaker
He felt um that he needed to confess to her any and all of his lustful feelings.
Kevin and Chad's Expulsion
00:45:27
Speaker
And then Jodi ultimately had him tell Ruby about watching porn and making out with girls, which made Ruby simply distraught.
00:45:37
Speaker
And he said she was just crying and sad. And she told him that all of the possessions that were happening to Jodi was because of what he was doing. Can you imagine putting yeah putting that on him for those reasons?
00:45:55
Speaker
He was 17 and he was told to leave the house. And for his part, he believed this. He thought he was messing up the home by being there. And at the same time, this is when Kevin was also kicked out.
00:46:08
Speaker
And basically for the same thing, except he was being accused of lustful, lustful thoughts and behaviors that he was keeping secret. At this point, did they, did they leave together or did they live together?
00:46:21
Speaker
Nope. They had to be separate. Okay. Ruby told Kevin that he was holding her and Jodi back and he had to go no contact with her and the children.
00:46:32
Speaker
And he just agreed without fighting. So this is going to bring me back to sort of like sending the kids off to wilderness camp. Do you think there was part of him... Mm-hmm.
00:46:42
Speaker
Who is okay with this? Do you think there's part of him who's like, eh, I'll take a break. ah You know. I think once i think once he was in the break... At first, is my guess, it probably felt like, okay, it's a little bit of a vacation. It's quiet here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:46:59
Speaker
But as it progressed, I think he, and I i believe him in this, he he isolated himself more and more, and that's obviously. Yeah, it did. But I can't imagine, like, I don't know, I go to a hotel room by myself a lot.
00:47:14
Speaker
to take a break i'll like stay the night in a hotel i mean you're you do this too you will like yeah you need i i so i imagine at least in the beginning it was like hey this is okay yeah i mean i yeah i don't think he thought it was going to go on for as long as i don't think he probably understood the um the extent of how much he would be kept from the children.
00:47:37
Speaker
But I do get the feeling a little bit like he was I'll take a couple of months in my own little apartment hanging out. but u hu Yeah, I do think that. He told the kids one by one that he was leaving for a while to work on himself and he would return as the dad they deserve.
00:47:55
Speaker
The kids were incredibly emotional. And he says that there is one of the kids in particular that he to this day can't get her face out of his mind.
Fractured Family and Sherry's Struggles
00:48:04
Speaker
And he said that Ruby was watching the whole interaction and that she was taking pictures on her phone with a smirk and said, quote, this is such good content.
00:48:14
Speaker
oh Oh, this is one of the thats most cringy thing, I think. Yep. And I think for Kevin, this is, well, he says it. He said i he wishes he could go back time and stop everything.
00:48:26
Speaker
This was his moment that he could have made the choice. turn Yeah. Yeah. yeah Turning point in the whole thing for him. But nope. He, in fact, called Sherry and asked her not to talk to him or Chad.
00:48:37
Speaker
After he left the house. So this confused her, and it led to her being incredibly concerned about the kids at home. When Sherry tried to express this concern, Ruby texted her and told her she was causing chaos for the family.
00:48:54
Speaker
She accused her of crossing lines and even talking with her family. and bre This is when you want to think you're a good mother. This is the opposite of being the perfect mother is removing your college age daughter from your family's car insurance and health insurance.
00:49:11
Speaker
That would be about the most devastating things. My my children could just car like not that I understand, but like especially health insurance is like you want your kid to choose between.
00:49:27
Speaker
In some cases, worst case scenario, living and dying because they can't afford medical care now. Like, this is, you're not the perfect mother on the pedestal. You're not America's mom.
00:49:38
Speaker
And let's be honest. Once you're on the full family plan, taking one person off is not even saving you any money. Sorry. No, not at all.
00:49:50
Speaker
So actually, I'm going to say, and this is, it's not the notes, but it is something from the the book that I want to share because I, it really stood out for me. And that was a point at which Sherry bumped into Kevin on campus.
00:50:06
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And he ignored her. Yeah. It's devastating. Yeah. That really. And so that's where i i am of two minds of Kevin. and I think I'm, I'm coming down on him more than even at the first time we talked about them in the first couple episodes we did.
00:50:23
Speaker
um He had a lot of choices and every single time he chose Ruby. Yeah. Yeah. So at this point, Sherry drove home. She asked,
00:50:33
Speaker
ah Tressa Hayward to go with her to the house. She describes this in the book too. When they went to the house, Ruby opened the door and said, Sherry was damaging the family and was deceived.
00:50:46
Speaker
She was completely like stone cold, no emotion. But had like this underlying like anger and animosity towards Sherry. And she told Sherry that she felt sorry for her and she would pray for her.
00:50:59
Speaker
Tressa said, and there are so there are a lot of people in the story that are like, oh, you're a real parent. Whether or not you are like their parent, you are a real parent. Tressa wanted to get Sherry out of there and protect her.
00:51:11
Speaker
And she fell apart with Tressa. She started, Sherry started looking at pictures and videos of the mom she used to know before Ruby started seeing evil in everyone around her, except for Jodi.
00:51:27
Speaker
And at this time, it ends on this like incredibly ominous, like terrifying note of Sherry saying, the four youngest kids are the only ones left in the house with Ruby.
Conclusion and Teaser for Next Episode
00:51:40
Speaker
And that is where we end episode two. Yeah. Thank you. We'll wrap it up next week. And then we'll have a couple more episodes about ah some of these weird connections. Not with an ex.
00:51:53
Speaker
Real connections.
00:51:56
Speaker
all right. We will see everybody next time. Bye.