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A Dog is a Man's Best Friend
43 Plays5 days ago
In this episode Patrick and Andrew are joined by Andy Edwards, author of King of Dogs, to discuss fatherhood, faith, AI, art, the process of writing a novel, and the special connection between canines and humans. Andy can be found at goldengoatguild.net
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Hosts
00:00:00
Speaker
and the brave new world begin begins when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the coffee book headings with terror and slaughter eternal
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Copybook Headings podcast. If you're a new listener just joining us for the first time, this show is inspired by the poem by Rudyard Kipling called The Gods of the Copybook Headings. And every week we take an old saying, proverb, or maxim and we break it down to see what we can learn from it and see if there's any ancient wisdom that's still relevant today from these old sayings. I am your host Patrick Payne and with me as always is my co-host Andrew Stevens. Andrew, how you doing, bud? Hey, I'm doing great. It's a good night.
00:00:58
Speaker
it's It's a great night. It's always a great night when we have a guest. Do you wanna introduce our our guest this time?
Meet Andrew Edwards
00:01:05
Speaker
Yeah, we have with us ah the the chairman of the board of the Golden Goat Guild, Mr. Andrew Edwards, um author of King of Dogs, which is a favorite of mine. um So it's a really, really cool experience here for me. I'm ah i'm a fan of of your work and your podcasts and so welcome. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. Glad to be here.
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's our pleasure to Andrew's tonight. probably just I know you sometimes go by and ah Andy the sake of confusion. but yeah Andy, thank you so much for for jumping on. I've been a fan of your stuff as well. Listen to your podcast and follow you on X.
00:01:50
Speaker
ah and and yeah various things so You want to tell the people a little bit about who you are and what you do? ah Sure. um I'm a father probably first and foremost.
00:02:05
Speaker
um I'm a seventh generation Oregonian. I like to refer to myself mostly as an itinerant ranch hand, um but online I guess I'm mostly known as a novelist. and
00:02:20
Speaker
That's it. yeah
00:02:25
Speaker
you are ah He's a very interesting guy. He's making himself sound so simple. but ah Can you tell us a little bit about your about
The Writing Journey and 'King of Dogs'
00:02:34
Speaker
your book? um how did How did you get started into and writing books? so How did I get started? I started in 2002. I had been in and out of college.
00:02:50
Speaker
And, um, didn't really know what I wanted to do. And I came across a little book called, um, all the pretty horses. Great one. Yeah. And, uh, I remember, you know, sitting there, I couldn't wrap my head around how it was possible to write that well. I just sat, you know, cause I always read as a kid, my dad always read in the evening and, um,
00:03:21
Speaker
it wasn't really a big deal you know it wasn't and i didn't particularly think that i was going to be a writer of some sort i kind of knew i wanted to do um i don't something creative i suppose i was very into athletics for a long time and then like you know for a lot of us um five eleven white guys like that kind of you know fades at some point. I found myself sort of standing there like, well, um I guess I'll so look around for something else. Yeah, that that's kind of the moment that I look back to as I think I was so stunned that somebody could be that good at something that it probably um inspired you know i't and some sort of competition, like to see if one man can do this.
00:04:14
Speaker
I don't, I mean, I guess I should have to try and, you know, I'm not sure how much they say about novelists too. Like it's really is for people that like literally nothing else you're capable of doing. And I, and I looked at myself and I thought, huh, that that's, that's kind of accurate. So that's how it started. Along the way, I've written um ah a lot of songs too. um Okay.
00:04:40
Speaker
you know, but no short stories. Um, I did write a lot of screenplays in college and after college, uh, nothing, nothing you've heard of nothing that's, that's ever been made, but, um, between those three kind of crafts, um, cause king of dogs, yeah I mean,
00:05:06
Speaker
You guys would have to tell me, but I mean, I think it worked out well as a novel, but um it it actually always had like a musical quality, if that makes any sense. you know That probably turns out to be more like poetry or something. How did you get it published? would you Were you self-published or was that a difficult process? Yeah, I put um years into it. At one point, I think I started it in...
00:05:35
Speaker
I did 2007 and the next year I had it developed to the point where I started shopping at around two agents and immediately rejected. I'm just everywhere. So I refined it again and I got it to David Milch, famously Deadwood, NYPD Blue,
00:06:05
Speaker
And um he he actually called me on Christmas. I was standing in the kitchen with my then wife and she answered the phone and said, it's David Milch. And this was a big, big, big deal. I know that listeners probably have no idea who David Milch is, um but this is a guy who's, I mean, every bit on par with Cormac McCarthy. um just an enormous power.
00:06:41
Speaker
It's just like, if you listen to him speak or obviously watch an episode of Deadwood. And so um he, that conversation, you know, I don't, ah you guys have listened to the podcast that I do. I guess I haven't really gone into it too much, but that conversation changed like my my resolve.
00:07:05
Speaker
Um, he reaffirmed something where it was, you know, he was, he, he was basically saying, um, you know, you can't quit. You're good enough that you can do this or something along those lines. Those weren't his exact words. Um, but he was very complimentary, you know, and, and supportive. And, um, it was, it was just, uh, from that point onward, I.
00:07:32
Speaker
begin to refine King of Dogs and make it um much better. And then I wound up getting very close with a few big, big, big agents. um I won't mention their names because I don't know where they're at and it probably doesn't make much difference, but these were people in Hollywood um that were, at that time, the literary agencies were kind of, pardon me, converging into the the agent system in Los Angeles for directors and actors and IP
Navigating Literary Challenges
00:08:15
Speaker
and this sort of thing. And that seemed perfect. um And then that sort of, it with all of these things at that time, and it'll probably always be this way, maybe I'll hopefully not, but
00:08:29
Speaker
Um, dealing with agents and, you know, stars and big money in these things. It's just, I mean, I suppose for some people it's natural, but it's not, it's not really a place that I enjoy the playing that game. I'm not built that way. I have no interest in it. I don't, you know, my, my preferences and much rather show up. We like it. Great. That's good. I don't, I don't want to. And.
00:08:58
Speaker
That said, you know um we all have to pay the bills. So I would have gone the distance, but it it ended up falling apart when um creative artists, it's called CAA. Those guys collapsed together into these other these literary agencies and it all kind of just got swept under the rug. So I sat on it for a little bit longer and um
00:09:27
Speaker
some some time went on. I mean, this was like a 10 year period between first writing it. I think i first I wrote the first draft in about a month. And then um you know I got married and life went on and all these other things happened. and Eventually, ah I sort of gave up on it in many ways. i didn't You know, and cut me off, guys, if you don't want to hear this much, but i'm you asked. No, no, man, keep going. um i yeah I sort of... i didn't I didn't think I would return to it, honestly. um I set it down for maybe a year and a half. And then I had a series of ah tragic events in my life
00:10:18
Speaker
and which will spare the audience. But um they were, they were such that, you know, every possible aspect of my being, my soul, my family, my, you know, everything, my dog, in fact, was upended.
00:10:36
Speaker
And in many ways, all I had when I walked out of these, this series of ongoing tragedies was that book. And
00:10:51
Speaker
i you know i I might as well say that the main character in that book, his name is Grayson, um was based on a real life person incredibly close to me who I lost.
00:11:10
Speaker
and um that was i I resolved myself once again and I sat down
00:11:20
Speaker
to one, like make the best possible book that I could. if i if If I could imagine a version of myself that poured every last bit of whatever I had into it, dotting every T, and and you know hypercritical as you have to be, but also on fire. um And then I would see it through. you know i would I would consider another stab at the literary establishment.
00:11:49
Speaker
Again, the, you know, in my opinion, these are people that are driven by totally the other motivations. They're not, you know, they might be fun to be around, but I think in large part, they're not people that I want to spend time with personally. You're talking about like the agents in that that world? Yeah, agent. I think that, you know,
00:12:16
Speaker
Hollywood to me, I mean, growing up, I don't know about you guys, but I always heard it was a cesspool, you know, and it was cut through these things. And I, I mean, I've come to believe that it's that, but probably much, much, much worse. You know, even, oh yeah I think we've got evidence of that. Yeah, I think so. Even if we stop short of the, you know, full blown conspiracy theories, just what we actually know is so disgusting and tawdry to me that, um,
00:12:46
Speaker
You know, having gone through the series of kind of personal events that led to me refining it to the best of my ability, it's not a perfect book. um But, you know, I say on the podcast, I put it up against anything that came out in the last decade, other than, you know, The Passenger in Stella Morris by Cormac McCarthy. Maybe James Elroy put out a book, but I mean it. I mean, that's that's what I think of it. And it was at that point where I really was like,
00:13:15
Speaker
One, i I don't think I care anymore about having that stamp, you know, the cachet that it just didn't matter. So I wasn't particularly prepared to take on all that you have to do to self-publish. And, you know, life picked up for me in many ways after that. yeah Life kind of, you know, you hit a slump and you come out of it and so things improved personally and that book's been a big part of it, you know? long It's gotta be cool to write a book and it's like that and like have a work that you put out into the world and it's completed and you've honed it and you've you're done with it and you put it out and it's just there forever. I mean, it's like something you did that lasts, you know, it's like building a
00:14:10
Speaker
You building a table or building a house, but what's like completely permanent, you know, I don't know. Uh, writing a book seems cool like that. Yeah, there's a moment. Um, I don't know if you guys have written books, but, and P I've heard other people say this where, um, you, you do know when it's done. And for me, it was just, um, just like, um, like a feeling that.
00:14:38
Speaker
You know, I mean, I am basically a normal guy. I mean, I was an athlete and, you know, I don't consider myself ah a particularly like sensitive person, um, or man or what have you, but there, there's like an overwhelming sense of satisfaction and, um, with, with going the distance. Absolutely. Yeah. It's pretty satisfying.
00:15:02
Speaker
Um, Andrew, do you have any questions for me before I want to – I was going to kind of move on to ah the the the ah the proverb here, but I wanted to – that was an interesting story. I want to see if you had any any other questions for him.
00:15:15
Speaker
um Well, I think I will, but yeah, I just – I actually have my i my copyright here. um I've been reading it. It's my my third read through right now. I found it just, um ah you probably know Mystery Grove, one day recommended it um on Twitter. And I just happened to see that. I'm like, oh, okay, I'll check this out. so He said his description was was good. um And I read ah read it in three sittings in 24 hours, just ah just burned through it. ah For me, um
00:15:52
Speaker
Fairly slow reader, I guess. ah and so just on on the ah because I guess you might say a superficial reading just just for the plot, just for the story, the the adventure of it. It's it's fast paced and engaging and just it pulls you through. And then um you as I've listened and enjoyed your podcast, you can definitely tell you know, your your philosophy in there, your your search for truth and the answers that you've found showing up in in the main character, showing up in the narrative, which is a really cool second layer to the to the book. And so, um just yeah, I just wanted to just wanted to say i've I've really enjoyed it and have been getting a lot out of it. But, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, mystery grove. um
00:16:43
Speaker
I've had a couple of kind of exchanges with him. I you know i presume it's a him. He's very anonymous and i I wanted to have him on the podcast actually.
00:16:56
Speaker
um i yeah I got a ah nice bump and I was really, I think i thought I was very generous of him, especially as his account grew. um Cause he he probably,
00:17:11
Speaker
made it made most you know most of the difference. And it's incredibly difficult with no money to to break both the algorithm and social media. And then, I mean, to think of purchasing traffic and these sorts of things is, if I had enough money to purchase traffic, as they say, like I think I would have just put it out and walked away. I mean, I don't right i don't i don't know. Maybe I wouldn't. But yeah. i I'm glad that you like it though. I'm very grateful to to everybody. it's ah It's a colossal, part of that um agreement I made with myself was to attempt to see it through, to get it to as many people as who would like it. So um yeah it's it's gratifying to see that when it does get to somebody who likes it, it's pretty rewarding as well.
00:18:08
Speaker
Yeah, and with ah with art like with an art medium like like a book, I mean, it can... Like I said, it's so permanent that it'll it'll be around, so you
The Impact and Meaning of Writing
00:18:18
Speaker
you never know. I mean, it could continue to gain popularity over time. It could have a a singular moment where it just gets big, you know could could steadily move along. you know So it's kind of kind of cool that as people find out about it, they get to experience it for the first time, and and I don't know, it seems neat.
00:18:36
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I think that it's, it's pardon me, I think about this with music a fair amount, where if you were to write a song, um it's like 30 seconds of the listener's you know attention. it's It's a gift on the on the part of the,
00:19:02
Speaker
the the reader or the listener, but with a novel, I mean, it's i think I think it's like an average of almost 20 hours, which is quite an investment to ask of somebody, you know a grown man with a family and responsibilities. and um
00:19:22
Speaker
But that that's kind of on the other side, it's in a way, you can do so much with a novel and it can it can catch a fire at any point you know there are lots of books I suppose that didn't really I mean how many authors are there who nobody knew who they were were at all until long after they were dead so yeah yeah and I I continue to flog it so we'll see I still believe I don't know quite
00:19:59
Speaker
how I could finagle this at this point because I've kind of tipped my my hand as far as my power level. But um you guys having read the book, I think it would appeal now more to the left. Then for a long time, you know people were saying, oh, the right would love this, the the Christian, the God element. But careful I was very careful to not I mean, I don't think there was a much overt politicism or it was it was just trying to be more at at a super raw level and then at a transcendental level or you know as high as I could go towards some sort of truth. So I'm kind of hoping now and I may just...
00:20:51
Speaker
start flogging it to, to leftist because they're in despair now. So which me I don't know. Well, yeah, man, I think you should. um Well, the listeners listening to this show, like, ah like, ah we need to. So this our proverb of this week actually has nothing to do with writing books, probably, but but but that was yeah i perfectly adequate and acceptable and very interesting sidetrack there. So I love that. I love hearing about the process of creating art, writing a book, something like that. So I thought that was great. um But um
00:21:28
Speaker
but Yeah. Proverb this week.
Exploring the Proverb of the Week
00:21:30
Speaker
um ah Yeah. Andrew, you want to tell us what it is? Or yeah ah Andy? was never andrew Yeah. ah A dog is a man's best friend is is a is what I pitched, um you know especially considering the yeah the title of of Andy's book and and also the just the significance that um dogs are given in that book. and And so I just kinda, I thought maybe we could be able to tease out a little more of your your thoughts on on our canine friends. I know you're a dog owner, I am too, and they are wonderful creatures. And so, and but you know, there's, as with all our proverbs, there's a little more to it sometimes. So I just wanted, it we wanted to hear your thoughts on it.
00:22:23
Speaker
Yeah, um thank you. Um, and feel free, you know, if you want to reference the book, I don't, I don't want to presume that there's one aspect or another, but I'm perfectly willing to try and answer, you know, any reflections on it, the day you have or, or the light. But, um, when you, when you sent this over, you know, my first thought was that the statement, um, that this dog is our best friend is kind of, um,
00:22:54
Speaker
I mean, it's true and you know as far as it goes, but it's indicative of like everything else around us. um It immediately says ah something about the the heart of man himself and and our human friends and our wives and and this sort of thing. and And probably, I mean, to me, there's there's a lot of practical,
00:23:24
Speaker
truth there like if you if you find yourself I mean as a young man for sure but um you know life can go all kinds of ways and if if you if things are taken from you if um if you know you have to move to a new place or if you have a dog um I think you can remain human in a way, even without, in a world where, I mean, a lot of people around us are lacking in a lot of those basic things that I'm sure all of our moms, you know, yeah beat into us, just like basic
00:24:11
Speaker
um
00:24:13
Speaker
how we treat each other, how we treat ourselves. The dog also forces you in a tough spot to take care of something other than yourself. You know, it forces you to just, you know, if you're in a hole, well, you still have to get that dogs looking over at you at like noon and you haven't walked him and fed him. I mean,
00:24:33
Speaker
it it's it You got to be in a really rough spot. I remember the story from ah Bruce Willis of all people who said that he was in this tough spot in his life, ah you know probably related to drugs and success or whatnot. and um He said he was looking at this plant in his house and he he was like, no water for you, little ficus, no water for you. He had reached such a sort of degenerated state that he he knew he had to, this was his meager responsibility. He could blow everything off any and he could but get he could look at this plant that was there for him to take care of and he could just blow it off. I don't think he can do that with a dog.
00:25:19
Speaker
And, you know, I had a, there was an experience a while ago when I was reading this some news story about a really sad story about a man, his wife and kids, I got got gotten in a car wreck and all of them died. He was a family man left alone, just overnight, you know? And I told my wife this story and I was like, you know, kind of a macabre thought came to my mind, like man, if if that happened to me, what in the world would I do with my life? So I could probably just like,
00:25:47
Speaker
sell my house and get a truck and a camper shell on it and drive around the country being sad. And then I told her, and she was like, yeah. And then I was like, well, maybe I'll get a dog. And she was like, you should get a dog. If that happened 100%, you should get a dog. Yeah. Just knowing that you wouldn't survive without the dog, you got to have something. And that was at a time, it was a few years ago, before we have our family dog, we have a dog now, but Um, we didn't have a dog at the time. So I was like, mate yeah, ah you're right. I would need to get a dog. So you're right. You're right about it.
00:26:22
Speaker
Yeah. And it's a, it's something that, uh, you know, people knock on the whole, um, you know, the, the fur baby instant, you know, in lieu of having children kind of thing. Um, but I did find before I had kids, uh, my wife and I, we got a dog before we had kids.
00:26:39
Speaker
And i I found it was a great ah practice run on that kind of responsibility, that you know having that creature depend on you um just for real basic stuff. and And I actually thought it made having kids like that transition easier for me. um And you you learn some humility. You learn not to be resentful that this creature needs you.
00:27:04
Speaker
and Yeah, I just, so I recommend it. Don't, don't not have kids because you have a dog, but I think it's, I think it's a a good, a good practice run.
00:27:15
Speaker
um Yeah, I like this proverb also, you know, it's not only, you know, a dog is ah a man's best friend, but ah you know, I think, I think you've, I think I've heard you talk about, it you know, dog is is kind of mankind's best friend, or at least I've heard it talked about. um Just, you know, um that that transition in humanity's history when we, you know, incorporated the dog into into our society, kind of into our families, um you know predating even other other kinds of agriculture. And and so, ah yeah, what what are your thoughts on, I guess, humanity's relationship to dogs or or just to animals in general? What do you think?
Humans and Dogs: A Historical Bond
00:28:06
Speaker
um i I turned to a guy named, James Bowery, who is, he's around, you know, he's a much older fellow. I think he's in his 70s, but incredibly spry. And I mean, quite probably a genius. um You know, very interesting guy. He's on Twitter.
00:28:33
Speaker
um And I followed him for quite a while and he and I have become friends and his take on it is probably much better than you know the reduced version that I can muster right now. But um it it basically follows this idea that Northern Europeans in our in our prehistory
00:29:05
Speaker
in the winter. ah and And it can only really be explained as a gift from God. But they were they were in proximity to wolves, I guess, presumably, and figured out that the pack nature could be sort of levered over into human survival.
00:29:33
Speaker
yeah Warmth, hunting, but also the one that, that, you know, if you go camping with a dog, I mean, one of the huge benefits for me is, um, the super senses that they have, um, you know, they're going to hear and smell and detect any threat long before I do anyway. Um, and James and I guess others, you know, sort of theorize that.
00:30:12
Speaker
And I don't personally, I'm not really hung up on how true it is or how not true it is. I, you know, have my own personal ideas of evolution and time and and these things. But you know he's probably right when he says that this was a sort of bottleneck moment in all of human history and it may very well be probably is the case that
00:30:42
Speaker
The pact that we made with these creatures allowed us to survive impossibly harsh winters and conditions where we were dwindling, you know like as they put it, like maybe even down into the hundreds.
00:31:01
Speaker
Um, which if you look at us now, you know, running around with iPhones and, you know, I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty easy in comparison. If if that's true, I guess that I would have to say it's also true that we, we owe them. I mean, in general, you know, my feeling about animals, I'll just, I'll wrap it up, but I mean,
00:31:24
Speaker
i I believe something much closer to what I thought, or I still think is kind of a Christian interpretation of things that, um you know, the we're all kind of in this together. and And also, you know, I am kind of a hippie from Oregon. So I was raised just having a very ah strong distaste for any type of cruelty,
00:31:53
Speaker
you know, even if it extends to to to human comfort, like the way we treat, you know, the food that we raise. I mean, I meet plenty of people who just have no no issue with that at all. But, um you know, and i'm not I'm not really getting down on them. It's just like this unfortunate thing. But um I have to say, like,
00:32:20
Speaker
you know, raising a chicken. I don't care about a chicken at all. Like I will kill a chicken in a second and eat it, no problem. And I don't put them in the same sort of hierarchy that I would, you know, a cat or a dog or a horse, much less like a predator. But um I just, it it turns my stomach, you know, to treat like another living creature that way. Like they grow them in these cages and like,
00:32:46
Speaker
the thing is literally this weird blob of like chicken in a square package. So, um you know, I do, I do have a fair bit of that in me.
00:33:00
Speaker
Yeah, I don't remember where I heard it. I i think I read about it in some like I took a philosophy kill class or two in college, I might have heard about it somewhere there, but ah just the concept of like an ontological hierarchy, right? A hierarchy of being with various animals and And, uh, that, that, that's always struck me and I always felt like dogs were more, you know, I mean, most people probably do, but pretty high up there with their, you know, and I know there might be more intelligent animals, maybe champs or something else, but the, the emotional depth of a dog, I think is more even so than the intelligence, like being able to. To feed off your emotions and understand what you're feeling and, and, um, you know,
00:33:40
Speaker
your dog instantly knows if you had a good day or a bad day, instantly knows, you know, um but more more and and better than any other creature, I think, that I've that I can think of, um even like I said, more intelligent ones. So there there's there really is something special about about canines generally. Absolutely. Yep.
00:34:04
Speaker
and It may just be, um I don't know, and ignorance of other worldviews and things, but I wonder, like, what do you think the relationship, like, that Christianity has with with animals and yet is, you know, compared to compared to others? It seems, you know, apart from people losing their way a bit with, with you know, the factory farming thing and and and not appreciating animals properly, but it does seem like there's a tradition of more humane treatment of animals, even down to you know the chickens, you know through Christian history. um what what are your What do you think about that? I'll just tell you, you know when I see those videos coming out of Asia, where they are,
00:34:55
Speaker
um yeah yeah unfortunately, I think a lot of us have these images now due from the internet, you know whether it's like cartel killings or so ah putting like placing a a living a dog in a walk, like a giant walk, um you know W-OK.
00:35:15
Speaker
um That kind of goes a long way. I mean, I i think you're right. like I think there's something, whether it's, you know, i I personally am not, I don't feel myself like I'm not either equipped or learn it enough to quite, I can't seem to unravel Christianity from, uh, you know, the European race and the continents and the history. I mean, I, I'm here for a short time. And so I just got to make my judgments as a, as a can. And so whether that's due entirely to Christianity or not, or what,
00:35:58
Speaker
I couldn't necessarily say, but I think that you're, I think we would agree that there's, there's something there, um, that maybe isn't just the way that the Chinese treat the environment, you know, like, I mean, say would you like the emotions of a dog are like you said, um,
00:36:20
Speaker
profound, like there's something, a dog will read you closer than a lot of humans, maybe even most humans, if it's your dog. oh yeah And so I, you know, I guess I could give some people a pass on, but when we get to these facts, like the United States, we go back and forth on left, right.
Cultural Perspectives on Animals
00:36:46
Speaker
And, and all this about the environment.
00:36:50
Speaker
But as far as I know, compared to what's going on in India and China, the vast bulk of the of the pollution um in around the world comes from those two places. And we're doing an incredible job, really, in many ways, with all our limitations and all of the things that we have to fight about and through every day. I mean, we kind of keep the...
00:37:18
Speaker
At least, you know, the trash to a minimum if maybe we we destroyed the water along the way and I don't know yet but um I and I don't know if that's, you know, quite rewanted to go with that question but when I when I see.
00:37:34
Speaker
Chinese treat dogs and cats like that, like a murderous rage, I have to turn it off. Because unless someone's going to drop me in China, you know, with an appropriate team and equipment to to live that fantasy out, like it's just beyond belief to me, frankly. Yeah, you're right. I mean, ah I so I lived in Mexico for a while when I was younger. And, you know, they'll do different cultures, they do different things down there. And so, the you know, dog fighting is like a thing where people will do. And I'd heard about it. And I never, ever had any interest in participating in that or seeing it or anything. And then, and then there was that they also do cock fighting. And that to me, I was like, Oh, that should be kind of interesting to go and see. And my wife was like horrified when I told her I thought that she's like, No, that's cruel. But like, it's just different to me, like the dog, like I would never want to see dogs like fighting, but like two roosters seemed kind of
00:38:33
Speaker
kind of entertaining to me. So maybe I'm a horrible person for that. But but like, it was just it was just so stark because it's like, you know, the same type of activity. And but yeah, man, something about something that about a dog.
00:38:45
Speaker
um And yeah, i I really do think it has a lot to do with that emotional depth. Are are you a you are you a cat guy at all, ah Andy? Or mostly doggy? Actually, I love cats. I mean, my wife thinks that I love cats more than dogs. I don't know if that's true. They're kind of less...
00:39:06
Speaker
You know, they, they, they kind of need less in some ways. And so I'm at a point in my life with three kids and, um, three very young kids. And I'm not really that young of a guy where, yeah. Um, you know, I look at a cat pretty fondly, but I always have, I had, um, I think I've had two cats in my life.
00:39:30
Speaker
and
00:39:32
Speaker
I mean, they're they're like, to me, a lot of the pleasure and and joy comes from like, just watching them, you know, just the ridiculous stuff they do, like you were saying about the cock fighting. I mean, it's hilarious. Like, it's, it's comical almost. Like, it's... Yeah, right. And feathers. Yeah.
00:39:55
Speaker
My daughter's got a cat and I was never especially a cat guy, but my daughter got this cat. and This cat is awesome. And I've really kind of become more of a cat person because we have a dog and my daughter's extremely cat person, like to the T she likes to read and she likes to hole up in her room and, and, you know, curl up and um with with a book and her cat on her lap. I mean, it's like, you know, that's her and she's, she was, she's never really, she's always ah thought the family dog was annoying and slobbery and whatever. So she didn't have much time for the dog, but her, she got this cat and,
00:40:24
Speaker
And I've really appreciated become, come to appreciate cats too. Cause I mean, even just like, like you said, watching them, like I'll see, so our dog's a terrier and she'll chase after mice or whatever, but then watching that contrasted with the cat. Like, man, like the, the efficiency of their hunting, like she'll go out and catch mice and just, you know, she doesn't chase them around the yard or like, you know, she doesn't like running around like the dog is like kind of inefficient. You know, the cat is like a murder machine with the way they move. And so, yeah, it's they're, they're pretty cool.
00:40:53
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I've read i've heard that um the only argument against um like the domestic cat is just that they're they're murder machines, like you say. I mean they're just if you i had this cat, actually, um named Jade, that I got in Hawaii. And she was a stray. And she had this little... I mean, she had just every great quality that a cat can have.
00:41:22
Speaker
And then on top of it, was she was this incredible hunter. And i i I stole her basically from the people who sort of claimed her and brought her back here to the mainland. And I first dropped her in this um suburb outside of Portland. And um I was pretty confident that, I mean, it wasn't it was a pretty tame suburb. um
00:41:51
Speaker
And it it was like a matter of hours before she had the neighborhood under control. You know, she knew where to go. She knew where food was and she could be completely independent and catch birds and all sorts of stuff. I then took took her downtown Portland and she did the same thing. She, she went from Hawaii to the suburbs.
00:42:18
Speaker
and into this city. And then I finally took her um when I lived in Moab, she came with me. And same thing there. um Just desert environment, you know, kind of kind of brutal in some ways. it's Compared to Hawaii, you know, and nothing Moab is like Mars. Exactly. Yeah, very dry and different species. But she, she brought birds and you know hopping mice and all lizards like all day long and she loved it. No complaints, just always the same. Yeah, I mean, I ah hey i buried that cat practically with honors you know when she she did finally die.
00:43:05
Speaker
ah I was living in Portland and I just got lucky enough that I was i was at home for some reason during the day and she had free could roam wherever. She came up the stairs and I could see that she was having some sort of problem. um She was in distress. you know she I assumed she was having some sort of small series of strokes. She was very old. I mean, she was at least 20.
00:43:37
Speaker
And it people say like cats aren't, don't have the same, we don't have the same connection with them. I just think that's all inaccurate and not true because she knew she was dying. She came up these two flights of stairs to find me and then sit in my lap to die. And, you know, I, like, i't I don't know. I mean, just cause
00:44:06
Speaker
you know, she couldn't, she could never communicate whatever her feelings were, whatever the reality of the exchange between us was, um you know, on my side, I have to interpret it as I do, which was, um I did right by her, she loved me, I loved, she knew I loved her, and now she's gonna choose against all other things to come and die with me. um Yeah, so that's where like, they we're talking about the Chinese, like,
00:44:34
Speaker
How do they miss that? you know How do they not even just miss it, but just completely degrade it? Another long answer, but yeah, I love cats.
00:44:49
Speaker
A lot. Yeah. people say that People say similar thing about pigs that they can be good pets. I've never had any experience with them. ah My dad worked on a pig farm at one point in his life when he was younger. And I don't think he shared that. and of i think He ended up hating pigs. But ah I've heard some people say that they're like intelligent, like almost like dogs. But ah I don't know if you guys have had any experience with that. I don't know. Random thought.
00:45:20
Speaker
No, no. I remember it was that fad in like the like the late 80s, early 90s, the Potbilly pig pets. like But I never, never had one. No.
00:45:33
Speaker
Me neither.
00:45:39
Speaker
Have you kind of wanted to circle a little bit back to your your work as an author, have you considered writing a second book? Oh
Future Projects and Creative Evolution
00:45:48
Speaker
yeah, yeah. i um i yeah It's tough, it's tough with, um
00:45:59
Speaker
i wouldn't i wouldn't I hesitate even getting into this because I am so blessed. like I mean that in in every possible way with my three sons. like i I got a late start in life. It really was the case that God um said you get another chance. so i I can't hardly complain, but I've found it almost in like i mean almost impossible to, because we've had three kids, all three of our kids since 2020. The first was born and you know in COVID and all that. And this this whole like horrific period of the Biden reign, i mean it was pretty rough in a lot of ways.
00:46:52
Speaker
But ah I did manage, you know, to to whip out a book, I think, maybe a year and a half or two years ago. And it was it was a piece of another large fiction project that was supposed to be like a nonfiction book that could sort of stand on its own that in our world, you know, you could go out and buy it and they wouldn't It would function, but it would also function in the fictional world of this larger project. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. But that that nonfiction project, it I've invested a ton of time into it. It kind of was not that great. I didn't really like it. So, and I do move, you know, you you Andrew said you were a slow reader. I too am a slow reader, very, very slow and a very slow writer.
00:47:47
Speaker
I have a couple of other major projects like in the works, a screenplay that im I'm really trying to make saleable.
00:48:03
Speaker
you know I wasn't that concerned with King of Dogs. I didn't, i I'd hoped, I still hope that maybe you know some financial success may come from that.
00:48:16
Speaker
but um you know, significant, but, uh, I wrote it in a way that it just tried to kind of go right down the middle. Uh, this is the screenplay is a similar idea. It's not particularly, you know, the politics are sort of baked in as opposed to overt and, um, which is, kept you know, it's kind of my take on ah what art should be anyway, but.
00:48:46
Speaker
that and there's a couple other projects. I've tried my hand at short stories and again, not not really my my cup of tea.
00:49:02
Speaker
are um yeah I've wondered what is going to happen with the film industry generally I mean, I think it's pretty obvious we're seeing at least a significant ah decline in Hollywood. I mean, not saying it's on its death throes or it's going away, but you know it's certainly not what it was ah by any means. And so I'm wondering if it's going to have a rebound and have to start making better movies or if there's gonna be more independent films coming out. I mean, it's it seems technologically wise it's never been easier to make a film
00:49:40
Speaker
um independently without a big studio behind you. But at the same time, I haven't really seen a ton of them popping up here and there. ah And I don't know if it's just a matter of time or if there's some you know real restriction that's that's holding you know independent filmmakers back from from doing that. But you know with the but social media, with you know people who run in our circles on Twitter or or whatever,
00:50:09
Speaker
Uh, it seems like it could, you know, a project like that could, could take, take hold of it, if it were made. So yeah, I wonder about that. If, if people like you would could write a book or a screenplay and then some independent, um, filmmakers could, could, could put something together.
00:50:30
Speaker
Yeah. Andrew, do you mind if I speak to that? Yeah, please do.
00:50:37
Speaker
i I just wanted to jump in because um I've been going back and forth with a few of these guys, um as you say, it kind of in our circles, trying to ah discern. like you know our and There's a guy, James Polos, I think I've mentioned him on the podcast. He's with like Claremont and Blaze and Some independent stuff. Incredibly talented guy.
00:51:11
Speaker
um
00:51:15
Speaker
And kind of has his his his finger on the pulse of both the art world and like guy people who are in things like finance and what do they call them?
00:51:37
Speaker
venture capitalists, these sorts of guys. I, you know, even Cernovich has evidently played executive producer on, on a few documentary type films. And the way polo was put it was there's a crown in the
AI in Content Creation
00:51:54
Speaker
gutter. Um, and I agree. Like it doesn't seem like Hollywood is quite dead, but man, they're on life support and that the, I think that the wild card here is, is, um is AI. And these tools, you know, which may that some people, you know, commenters in the know, um are describing this as sort of like an apocalyptic oversaturation of
00:52:34
Speaker
really filmic like visual audio sorts of content where every kid in a matter of years will be able to just you can tell grok to make, make a screenplay in seconds, yeah make a few additions. And if you do a good prompt, like it could actually be pretty interesting. Like, I mean, you know,
00:52:58
Speaker
Um, I won't try and attempt to invent one here, but you know, let your imagination run wild. And if the visuals and the audio are so, are equally fast, we kind of really quickly come to a place where it has no value. It's, it's just like, and this happens sort of with music and that my, my concern, I'll try and wrap this up is like, I guess twofold because.
00:53:27
Speaker
The algorithm, once again, um you know makes no claims to care about quality or your soul or the those of your children and these sorts of concerns that we might have. So they're going to bend every rule. are you know any they'll They will do anything to make sure that they remain where they are.
00:53:51
Speaker
and if that's modifying the content. So it's now a five minute movie and that's what everybody likes, but you eat, you know, 15 of them in a sitting, so to speak. They, they really don't care. and That's like just, that is disturbing to me, but maybe the upshot here is that if we are able to stand up some sort of taste making and curators sort of, um, like a bulwark.
00:54:24
Speaker
And then we get a couple of lucky breaks, maybe movies and novels continue, but it's something a little bit more, uh,
00:54:38
Speaker
I, it could be like a goal. You know, we're talking about golden age and all this stuff. Now the Trump run, Trump, Trump won. Um, like it's. It's almost painful to me that these possibilities are really there. like we We really could just um have things so good. ah you know But reality being what it is, um and the resistance is is real. So those are you know kind of a hodgepodge of, hey, there's your cat.
00:55:10
Speaker
yeah make sure and Yeah, you know, you know how they are. they don't Yeah, so what are you doing? Just je jump right over your face. Hey, kitty. Yeah. I was just thinking that because there's with all the content creation that's being done. I mean, I see some of these like, tick tock comedians that are hilarious and not just in their in their delivery and whatever, but in their editing, like the way they cut their videos together and splice them is sometimes adds to the comedic effect like in in quite a like quite a substantial way. So I'm just wondering how long it's gonna be until someone just hit takes a real stab at ah at a feature length film, especially a comedy one. There hasn't been a good comedy in so long. that we And we have great comedians again. like For a while there it seemed like nobody wanted to do comedy. We've got great comedians again.
00:56:04
Speaker
yeah I agree. So, who knows what the what the future holds. Andrew andrew S, what are your thoughts? I'm always afraid I'm talking you over Andrew too much, because I'm too much of a talker than he ever was. I'm talker yeah pessimist, I guess. and I don't know, like with ah what you were what you were saying, Andy, about Um, you know, the possibilities to have basically on demand creations for you. Um, you know, I, I see for the mass appeal that being completely unnecessary because people don't care about finally, crip you know, carefully crafted and tailored experiences. They just, they'll take anything, right? Um, I think that's, that's proven out. I think, but the, the pitfall is, is for the people.
00:56:55
Speaker
who are maybe more creative, more you know actually curious. They can still fall into the same thing. though They'll be crafting their own little experiences, but they'll just be down that rabbit hole their whole life and just not crawl out of it. um So that's that that seems like the the peril of AI generated, especially the high quality stuff. At least that's what it seems to me.
00:57:23
Speaker
That seems accurate. I think you're probably right. I've wondered if ah like maybe I didn't finish that thought and i would or I never touched on it. But if if novels and films and these things sort of became like crocheting or um you know fly fishing, these real like niche little personal things, there's something kind of cool about that, I suppose.
00:57:51
Speaker
but Um, I don't know. I mean, if AI, I'm trying to, ah so that's kind of been my main concern of like research and just trying to keep up with the world, you know, as ah a guy who's responsible for teaching, you know, these sons of mine, um, I've done, I've really, maybe last six months have tried to understand what these perils are and
00:58:23
Speaker
yeah i'll I'll, you know, get into them at some point somewhere, but I think we're all going to. i I hope not be overwhelmed, but it might be overwhelming, you know, because when these things start to bleed into um the rest of our lives, like how we live our lives, if we everything, whether it's, you say, politics, culture and technology are sort of ah this weird knot.
00:58:53
Speaker
um you know I have one friend who sort of explains this by saying, the the reason we can't pull these apart is because we live already in a type of theocracy where I know you guys, you know and I didn't agree to that theocracy. And that's you know it's kind of something that goes around in our circles in one way or another. but um
00:59:20
Speaker
I, I weigh this out a lot, you know, day to day, like does what I'm doing and what I was sort of trained myself to do. And the way, that the way that art should be able to function is for a guy like me to, to enter into the world, you know, to be able to go out and, um, participate with, with other people. It's like an entry into a world that for other people is.
00:59:45
Speaker
you know, they have different entries, but um the fact that that shutting down or has been shut down or made incredibly difficult and then may just be overwhelmed entirely, you know, is is super concerning and sort of just always to me anyway, leads back to religion. um Maybe, maybe we you know and i I guess I'm speaking for myself, probably I can't speak for other people, but um making that just much more real, at least for my family than it was when I was growing up, may be like this survival piece.
01:00:30
Speaker
um And it won't really matter you know if I If I get to write another novel I would I would love to and I would love to have that avenue into the world but maybe much of what the world is telling guys like me is like You know um You know, I hope he calls me son or something like that like not retard but um, you know turn around like he's been here the whole time, you know, or however however listeners may conceive of that and i'm speaking of god here like
01:01:01
Speaker
I just think it may, it may be time where we've built up such, uh, you know, call it a tower of Babel or whatever, you know, just human kind of machinations where, you know, it just, it may not matter. And so I weigh that out a lot is what I guess I'm trying to say in terms of.
01:01:25
Speaker
you know, our conversation, do I, should I invest any more time in this or should I just worry about being close to God, you know, being still and then demonstrating that most importantly for
The Legacy of Stories
01:01:41
Speaker
my sons. I mean, I've, you know, I've had, you know, kind of not that long of a life, but I, I've seen enough to where Ike and I can pick up, you know, what being a father is, it's a, it's a ah sacrifice in large part. And so that's really my concern now is at what, what kind of, you know, yeah I'm sure you guys weigh this too, but it's like, like, um, you know, there was a mention between the three of us at one point, I think on Twitter about like the red pill sort of stuff and how
01:02:18
Speaker
A man kind of needs to to get some experience under his belt to even understand what he's dealing with in terms of women. But at the same time, like there it's you immediately just right out of the gate or under this incredibly dicey territory territory where you have to model something, but they also need experience. And this is this is much, it's looming much larger in my life you know now than dreams of of making it or or anything like that.
01:02:53
Speaker
Yeah. I think I spun that around. No, to be fair though, like um you know stories are the perfect vehicle for for allegory, for ah for parable,
01:03:09
Speaker
and um and that's and that's perfect for you know leaving something to instruct your sons and your grandsons, right? So um in that regard, it's it's a worthwhile endeavor.
01:03:25
Speaker
yeah Yeah, you're right. In fact, I mean, what, what else do we have other than we kind of as, as both an instructional sort of model and, and also when we become men, like what do we hold on to? Like, I mean, uh, Odysseus and, uh, John McLean or whatever, you know? Yeah, you make a good point. That's, I think that's why I'm struggling with it. Uh,
01:03:55
Speaker
My wife and I had this conversation recently where I i essentially sort of said, I i just can't understand how um how as a man, you know you turn over everything that's really you and then you demonstrate that sort of a form of submission almost to your boys. like And you can reduce this to just chasing your dreams or what have you, which is you know, kind of a more of a silly thing, but if it is your craft and, and in my case, like I've doubled down two or three times on this and I'm, you know, I'm getting well into middle age. So it's, I hope you're right, Andrew. I think you may be, may be onto something in terms of it's, it has a value maybe, you know, beyond yeah Hollywood or,
01:04:54
Speaker
Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, ah ultimately, the Bible is a collection of stories, right? I mean, and we're glad that, you know, though they were written and they we still get things out of them today, thousands of years later. And even if you've read it a million times, you still get something new every time you read it. um And, you know, i I imagine that this conversation about the AI and the the soullessness of it and all that, probably this same conversation probably had, was had,
01:05:23
Speaker
um at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, you know, when all the handmade things were now being churned out by machine, and they were all identical, and there was no soul and no craftsmanship in them. And people bought shoes from a factory instead of from a cobbler. And, and, and you know, I think there's, man, there's, there's truth.
Valuing Human-Crafted Art
01:05:45
Speaker
And there's not truth to that. Because I mean, yeah, it flooded us with cheap crap that sucks. And we it's around us all the time. But, but now,
01:05:54
Speaker
Because of that, a handmade belt, like the one I'm wearing right now that Andrew made for me, is more valuable. It stands out more because of the cheap crap that we're surrounded with, right? So good art touched by a human hand and with a human soul is gonna be more valuable than ever.
01:06:14
Speaker
a hundred percent. I think he just made the case for it. That that's, that's, I think what guys like polos and those who have their you know finger in both camps and can kind of sense that, um, I hope that's where they're moving towards is, is something exactly like that. Maybe, you know, like if we, if we cut some costs, like just cut celebrity, just cut the red carpet, cut all of the marketing and you just, um,
01:06:43
Speaker
kind of condense the pricing structure out, you know, just throw it away. Maybe there would be enough. But yeah, the point you just made, I think is incredibly hard to to argue against.
01:07:00
Speaker
Like, maybe it'll stand out. Well, hey, man. um Yeah, we, we could stop right there. I guess we're coming up on time anyway. But um this is a great conversation, man. Thank you so much for coming on.
01:07:13
Speaker
Um, we really appreciate it. Thank you. I'm honored that you would ask me. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Uh, our pleasure really. And you want to tell anybody where to find you or anything you want to want to plug? Um, maybe just, um, try me on X it's golden goat guild. You know, that's, um, most of updates on podcast or, or anything like that. We'll probably go out there.
01:07:42
Speaker
Okay. You've got a new stock where people find it. Where where do you prefer they can get? Oh yeah. It's I do. Thank you for reminding me. Um, I'm trying the sub stack thing and I, I'm going to go at it more, uh, much different than the podcast. Um,
01:08:02
Speaker
So that, that there's a link tree, I think on the, um, on the X account where most of that stuff is, is available and king of dogs is, is available everywhere. You know, Amazon or, um, Barnes and Noble, these types of places it's, it's around. It's easy to find. Okay. Well, Hey man, thanks so much for coming on again. I really appreciate it. And, uh, thanks Andrew for picking the.
01:08:32
Speaker
picking the proverb and thank you you listeners for for listening and we will be back again for another one next week thanks everyone all right we'll see you bye there are only four things certain since social progress began that after this is accomplished and the brave new world begins when all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sin. As surely as water will wet us, as surely as fire will burn, the gods of the copy want hideous, with terrors or tortures.