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DSC: "Mirrors" (s5e5) with Shereese (@SciFiSavage)
97 Plays15 days ago
VIDEO GAME LOGIC. Burnham and Book board the ISS Enterprise from "Mirror, Mirror" and engage in a series of video game levels that leads to an exposition dump via cut scene. Is this a clever stop along the clue trail or Exhibit A in the case for Star Trek: Discovery being a live action video game? Shereese the Sci Fi Savage helps Bryan investigate.
The grades begin at (36:20).
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Transcript
Star Trek Discovery Blu-ray Giveaway Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, Trekmarikill listeners, we're giving away Star Trek Discovery, the complete series Blu-ray box set. A giveaway, Brian? That's generous. And what, pray tell, must one do to be given Star Trek Discovery, the complete series Blu-ray box set? Why, Kristen, all people have to do is send us a poem about Star Trek Discovery. What about a limerick or a haiku? Those work, too. And any type of poetry about Star Trek Discovery works.
00:00:25
Speaker
Michael Burnham, she's our gal, and Sintilly is her pal. What are you doing? Are you trying to enter the giveaway? No, I would not be doing that because that would be a violation of the Federal Trade Commission guidelines, Brian. Good. Then you're giving the listeners a chance.
Poetry Submission Guidelines
00:00:42
Speaker
You heard Kristin. If you think you've got a great poem about Star Trek Discovery, submit it to our email, treknarykbot at gmail dot.com. And if we like your poem best, we'll send you Star Trek Discovery, the complete series Blu-ray box set.
00:00:54
Speaker
That's just a thank you. We're taking your poems into our inbox up until 11.59 PM Pacific Time, December 1st, because I'd like to be able to send this out to people by the holidays.
00:01:06
Speaker
There once was a captain named Lorca, whose love for Elon Musk made him sound like a dorka. Okay, you have your mission, listeners. Want a chance to receive Star Trek Discovery, the complete series Blu-ray box set, just in time for the holidays? Then think up a great poem about Star Trek Discovery and email it to trekmerrykpod at gmail dot.com by 11.59pm pacific on December 1st, 2024. Would you trek, marry, or kill that last poem?
00:01:35
Speaker
Next on Trek Mary Kill. Breen, Terence, the Enterprise. Let's fly. What is that? That is a wormhole. That's what we have to pass through to get to the next clue. How are we doing, book? We're on this quest to find a thing that created us. um
00:02:03
Speaker
kill you right now. That's a choice. I hope you'll make a different one.
Season 5 Midpoint Discussion
00:02:20
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Charisse. Welcome to Trick Mary Kill, a Star Trek podcast that feels like it's gone through a Gormagandar's digestive tract. That's because we're talking about a very busy episode of Star Trek Discovery from its fifth and final season. Charisse, we've reached the midway point. And it feels like we've done so much more. I was like, episode five? How is this only episode five?
00:02:45
Speaker
We get that like a thousand years of backstory in this episode. We really, we really, really do. I mean, we go through hair changes. We go through costume changes. Like that's when the hair changes, you know, it's been like 10 years already.
00:03:00
Speaker
ah Mirrors is the fifth episode of Star Trek Discovery's
Episode 5 'Mirrors' Summary
00:03:03
Speaker
fifth season. It premiered on Paramount Plus April 25th, 2024, written by Johanna Lee and Carlos Sisko, directed by Jen McGowan. I don't actually know if it's pronounced Johanna or Johanna. I've i've known people who spelled that the same and pronounced it both ways, which is now weird to realize that as I read this. But anyway, Johanna and Carlos ah wrote it together, directed by Jen McGowan. Memory Alpha describes it. Captain Burnham in book journey into extra dimensional space in search of the next clue to the location of the progenitor's power. Meanwhile, Rayner navigates his first mission in command of the USS Discovery. And Culber opens up to Tilly for some reason, because why not? Because they were short on right? Why not have that here also? Let's put that into
00:03:49
Speaker
Uh, what memory alpha doesn't mention is what Burnham and book discover in enter extra dimensional space, the ISS enterprise. That's right. The version of the ship from mirror mirror in the original series. Of course, it looks like the strange new world's enterprise. Just go with it. Uh, somehow though, it has survived mostly intact with all of its power stores operational for like a thousand years, uh, damaged floating in this weird pocket of space. And it is where the scientists who discovered the progenitors tech stash one of the clues.
00:04:19
Speaker
naturally. Yes, that's because one of the people from the ISS enterprise ah during the mirror mirror time period was the backup science officer, and she escaped with a bunch of refugees on that enterprise, but then it got stuck in between the mirror universe and our universe, they still made it into our space. And then some of them even joined Starfleet, including the science officer Cho. And she was then one of the scientists involved in finding the weapon. Yeah, in finding the progenitor tech and then hiding it.
00:04:55
Speaker
She was one of the group of the secret scientists that we don't know who they are because all records have been
Critique of Episode 5
00:05:00
Speaker
destroyed. That's right. That worked together to hide the clues. And we get all this information from a lot of leaps of logic. And thank goodness there's a memorial plaque that's in the transporter room. Note to self, make sure you make memorial plaques in your freaking ships because you never know when a thousand years later someone might come along and need that.
00:05:24
Speaker
We also get the backstory for how mall and lock met and I guess kind of fell in love. I mean, it's we missed that part of it, but we definitely get how they met. um And we learned that because of how they met, Locke has an Erega of basically a bounty, a Breen bounty on his head. And they are hoping that this progenitors tech can get rid of it. Yeah, it can be like exchange for their freedom. And then they're going to go and live in some paradise planet, colony, place, world, who knows, and just be happily ever after. So I see zero problems with this plan. And we learned that book took her dad's name. Yes. And Amal's dad's name. Which did we know that before? Because I can't, I am so fuzzy on that. That had to have been a last season thing because I really am fuzzy on it. And okay.
00:06:17
Speaker
A lot of this stuff is just coming out in between the plot beats. This episode definitely felt like a video game andv event episode where you had cut scenes in between these action beats. The the hologram sick based shootout where you have to shoot the holo projectors. That's a video game level. You know, and I like that. That was maybe the only.
00:06:41
Speaker
Can I say only thing? Maybe the one of the only things I liked about this episode, because I haven't seen that before. And they it's probably been done before and I just don't remember, but I haven't seen that before. And I was like, why haven't people used this technology to do this more often? I couldn't get past the sick bay would not have hollow emitters in it. So why not? And the doctor on Voyager, there was hollow emitters in sick bay.
00:07:03
Speaker
Yes. That's because Voyager is like 80 years after the original series, which is what the ISS enterprise is mirroring. And I just don't understand how it would be working perfectly. And they would be able to hijack the technology to make doubles of themselves. Well, somehow, you know, life support is working perfectly, even though all of the lights are like glitching and things are sparking and blowing up. So I don't know. Just to follow the logic of of it if we're going to accept that there's holographic stuff in the sick bay which I don't know why there would be but let's just go with it, it would make a little more sense if it was just it was able to project people that it knew. So if there was like a Spock walking around you know what I mean like then you could have really gone with the idea even farther but
00:07:49
Speaker
All that to say, ah the the video game this of this episode is pretty much on high alert ah because Burnham is such a central figure in. She's got this weird plot
Comparison to Video Games
00:08:01
Speaker
armor around her, I guess, but it's more like what they're doing is so unemotional and it's all very gadgety. You know, the way she's got the necklace and she tags the necklace and all these things, these levels like you're planning to get the level done in a way that's sort of not ah organic. And then when you do an event, you then get backstory dumped on you to explain now, why are people doing what they're doing? And it just felt very much like, okay,
00:08:33
Speaker
Now i've got ah I've got a language tree. I've got to go chart through these responses to get more information. so Yeah, and it's really interesting because I was thinking, well, I don't know if interesting is the word, but I was thinking, how could I have done this episode better? like Because I wanted this backstory, actually. I'm glad we got the backstory because I wanted the backstory on Molinlok. They kind of hinted at, oh, they're in love and it's them against the world. and They're just going through, you know, they made it seem like they just love crime. They love crime and they love each other and they love committing crimes together. But now it's like, oh, no, there's a reason they're committing these crimes. Why are we, why is it episode five before we find that out? So I don't know, I was just thinking like, how could I have done this better? Because I do appreciate we got the backstory.
00:09:13
Speaker
I am glad we know more about them. Did I need quite so much backstory? No. Did I need so much all at once? Absolutely not. But I think I do i did want it and I maybe wanted it earlier and spread out a little more or I don't know what. This is one of those times, I had this happen a ah couple of times and in our podcast, the TNG podcast, where I was kind of like, I don't like this. But I also can't fix this. Like, you know, because some some episodes, you're like, Okay, this is dumb. All all you had to do was XYZ. And that would have made so much more sense. This whole episode, I was just like, I don't know how this could be better. Like, but I'm sure it could be. But I'm just not really sure how how else to do this story other than how they did it.
00:09:51
Speaker
This is the, the issue with the episode is that there's too much backstory. We've got the back story of the ISS enterprise that is.
00:10:06
Speaker
a backstory to explain why the clue is here. Do we care? Does that matter? And do we need to know that? It was hidden
Character Development Analysis
00:10:14
Speaker
here. That's all we need to know. Refugees and all that stuff and how it lines up with canon. So that's in and of itself a lot. Does that backstory have any emotional relevance to our main characters? No, it doesn't. It's just like we know about the Terran universe. So we kind of know a little bit more about the story about what happened.
00:10:34
Speaker
But is that really paying off anything? Not really. It's paying off. It's a sequel to Mirror Mirror. It's not a sequel to this back half of season one of Discovery. It's not even a back half to any of the Georgie stuff. So.
00:10:47
Speaker
It's kind of divorced from that. And then it's not emotionally resonant with the mall and lock story because they're not really escaping in a way. It's just more like he stood up for her and he was kind of an outcast and that was it. Does that resonate the same? I don't think so. The only way that they didn't do enough to tie it together is probably the bigger thing because we get this idea that mall was orphaned. Her mom, died her dad abandoned her and her mom died when she was young.
00:11:16
Speaker
yeah So, so Locke was kind of like a guy who maybe looked after her, but it was also kind of a misfit that could kind of fit with the refugees that was going on with this discovery stuff or with the ISS enterprise ah refugees that maybe kind of lines up, but it it doesn't really. And I think what was missing is what, what the bigger resonance to me that the episode was setting up was.
00:11:40
Speaker
Burnham and Booker on the other side of Mollnlock's story, which of madlock right which book is trying to come like relate with Moll on that level. I wouldn't let anything happen to Michael or to you. Okay, buddy. Well, you got to choose Elaine because like you're literally at war with these people. You cannot save both of them.
00:12:00
Speaker
but their ship was destroyed. they They got very lucky to be on this ship. Like they were able to good thing that there was another ship in that pocket when they lost their ship. But I guess what you could have played as an emotion was them actually being hopeless.
00:12:16
Speaker
Like we've never been in the situation before. We're going to die. And then what does that bring out in them? Does that bring them closer? Does that drive them apart? And then our but our Burnham and Book helping them get through that because of their own experiences, or are they becoming less of like we just like doing crime and now they're more primal and desperate and we're seeing a very ugly side of them so there's no emotion because it's all just backstory do we need and and sometimes it's like is backstory more interesting the less you see of it
00:12:50
Speaker
I kind of think the juice was not worth the squeeze for the Molinlok backstory. Probably if they were going to do quite so much backstory, we probably needed the ISS backstory ah related to us by the dots afterwards or something. And then we just needed a full on episode about Molinlok.
00:13:08
Speaker
back in the day, like just a full like flashback other than these cut scenes, which is exactly what exactly what you said. It was a series of cut scenes and it was kind of like going back to them, falling in love, going back to them, making out, going back to them. And you're like, okay, but this moment, you know, she's like working out a panel and then she just stares off into space and remembers the time they kissed. And you're like, well, why would anybody remember that when they're working on a panel, when they're about to die? You know, it's like the cut scenes also didn't match what's going on right now. Like why were those things being triggered?
00:13:37
Speaker
And then I think, I think you're right. And then I think at the end when it's like, get away from him. He's mine. I'm going to save him. And then they like run away in the, in the, what do they call a war pod? Which I guess is an escape pod for war. That is an armed escape pod, I guess. I'm not really sure what a war pod is, but okay. And then they escape and maybe it would have been better if earlier in the episode, there was some kind of alliance, but it was a ah fragile alliance. And then at the very end, they like tricked each other or something and then they escaped in the war pod that might have been more in line with their character. But this just felt kind of like
00:14:16
Speaker
I don't know. So you said there was no emotion. I felt like there was too much. There was so much. Well, there was melodrama. False emotion. Okay. Yes. the What was the real emotion here? Was it fear? Was it, you know what I mean? Like, what is the emotion instead of just people being emotional? What is the emotion driving the story? Right. That's what I felt. I felt like it was people being emotional from beginning to end. And I just was like, ah discovery buddy, this is why i challenges.
00:14:46
Speaker
and Last week was emotional, but it was driven by an emotion. If strange is an emotion, maybe not. But we have the emotion of the conflict between Burnham and Rainer, yeah right? the the The incongruity or the conflict between how are we going to resolve this? This dude was a captain. She's a captain. You can see the respect, but they do fundamentally disagree. And so they don't trust each other totally.
00:15:10
Speaker
And so that episode is about them building their trust. It really worked out. We also got to see how far Burnham has grown. Like there is like legitimate actual emotion you could track. And this one was kind of ah all over the place. Kind of funhouse mirrors, if we're going to use the mirrors, ah distorted, larger than life, wacky perspective. A couple of other concepts or themes I kind of want to touch on. Burnham says that the Federation is all about giving second chances.
00:15:38
Speaker
I think that's kind of an interesting a thought that maybe could have been played on. But what I didn't buy in the episode was the idea that Locke, like in order to make Locke seem like the reasonable one, they had to bend him so far into being a good little boy. And I think that's kind of what eats at. That's what we'll see. What happens is like Mal is the is the rough guy. Yeah. the Tough girl. And he is the soft boy and he he means well. Yeah, there's a version of that that doesn't have to be so stark.
Themes of Mirroring and Second Chances
00:16:09
Speaker
And so I just think it made them less interesting. And I think the second chances with book and between Burnham and book is actually way more interesting. And I kind of think that the
00:16:21
Speaker
Mirror mirror thing that was just sitting there was another opportunity for those second chances to be more interesting Cho was the backup science officer of the enterprise but when Captain Kirk was in command of the ISS Enterprise They were leveling planets for not signing up for the Terran Empire, right? She was ah had a hand in some atrocities, ah perhaps, you know, I mean, like, so getting this crew across the threshold into this other reality and then joining the Federation, joining Starfleet, that was a sign of a second chance. So maybe what they needed, if you're going to do the whole video game thing, was like a holographic character to kind of walk them through what happened or like what they could do and be a conscience or or some sort of being kind of like kind of like in the chase episode.
00:17:06
Speaker
where the hologram shows up and is like we are one yeah yeah yeah some or just like someone that could be a leftover that could actually verbalize or dramatize this backs this ridiculous backstory yeah it would have made more sense in the plaque and it would have been better because um I also thought there were a lot of leaps of logic, but I also thought, OK, so the so because books have something where it's like, isn't it interesting that every clue has a lesson attached to it or something like that? And I just wrote in my notes. So why would they make this lesson so vague and nebulous that it's that it's up for interpretation?
00:17:43
Speaker
If it's that important, you want to you want to explicitly say the lesson is folks, like you want to do a moral of the story. You don't want to be like, we just dropped the clue on this random ship. And then we left a plaque. And then we have some like towels and stuff and some blankets and some kids toys. And I think from that, they're really going to understand everything we've been through. I think that's going to really like clinch it.
00:18:06
Speaker
It's yeah, you're right. Like it's would make more sense to have a holographic something something and then that could be a point of drama because of course you're going to shoot at it or be afraid of it or some kind of interaction to be like, wait, wait, what's going on? Especially if they go backwards. If if what's happened is people from the era of Star Trek where they did have holographic technology went back and hid this clue, then it it all kind of makes sense then that they would it could left put something in there, ho them which which that could have been a reason where Burnham's you know burnham's like, why does the sick bay have holographic projector? Hologram technology was un integrated into Starships.
00:18:40
Speaker
so And then it's like, this is why. Yeah. Yeah. ah So anyway, the second chances idea, I'm not I mean, maybe that was kind of the theme that they were trying to harp on was that mall and locker deserving of a second chance. ah Burnham and book that's kind of paralleling what's going on there.
00:18:56
Speaker
of course, Rayner's storyline is all about a second chance. So I guess and mirrors kind of implies two views of something. So I guess that's all like there on the on the table. But did they assemble it into so like, did they put the puzzle together to make it look like a really strong image? We're going to find out in our grades. But lock and mall second chance that Michael was offering was like life imprisonment. Yeah, it was like Where would anyone take this
Unused Plot Ideas and Antagonists
00:19:21
Speaker
deal? yeah Or maybe they'll, they'll serve together and the fact that, yeah, exactly. But Moll is not trying to be in prison. Like that's, Locke just seems like he's just so go with the flow, but Moll is not going to go with that deal. And that's a horrible deal. I just want to point out that this episode reveals that Locke is a really bad partner or he's a really bad boyfriend. He doesn't know his girlfriend at all.
00:19:42
Speaker
Well, and I want to point out he's a very weak leader because if his uncle's like the leader of the whatever, and they're supposed to be royal bloodlines, like he should not have been so easily beaten by Burnham. He should have been training, fighting since he was two. I can believe he's like a weaker Baratheon or something, you know, like Game of Thrones. Some of those bloodline are fail sons.
00:20:06
Speaker
ah But he's he's obviously a soft boy and he doesn't. And the end fact is he's not a good boyfriend. He the idea that he would even entertain it and it doesn't get ah disputed. Right. He's not like setting up Burnham. Right. It's all drive driven by mall. We're supposed to believe Locke is the reasonable one because he's willing to go to prison. I kind of want him to be. I want him to be. Yeah, you're right. I want him to be as unreasonable as mall.
00:20:32
Speaker
I want them to be just like a Molotov cocktail. Like I want them to be, you know, just fire and gasoline where she seems like the crazy one, but he's even crazier than the crazy one because it makes all their actions seem so reasonable when they're both coming from such an unreasonable spot. Also, they should have stolen their shuttle to leave.
00:20:52
Speaker
Yeah, I can't believe they didn't do that. and And they also shouldn't be on the run. They shouldn't be trying to find the progenitor tech so that they can buy their freedom, which they're never going to be able to buy. They should be on the run because they just like, you know, he killed the uncle, he didn't shoot him in the shoulder. And he's just like, F it, like, I can't rule anything. So we're just gonna like burn it down. You know what I mean? And then that makes them such a formidable enemy, because they have nothing to lose.
00:21:17
Speaker
Episode co-writer Carlos Sisko was interviewed by TrekMovie.com after the episode's release, and he gave, I think, some interesting details about the development of this one. He said several options were considered for how to utilize the Strange New World's Enterprise set. Quote, We were given access to the set so we could pitch ideas that could take place on those sets, whether it is the Enterprise or not. There were a few pitches, like one with an old science vessel from the 20th century stuck inside a planet of liquid mercury.
00:21:43
Speaker
and one pitch was it was a mirror universe ship sort of trapped like a ship in a bottle which became the pocket of dimensional space we even considered fluidic space trying to bring in one more little reference so once it was settled to do the mirror ship the opportunity to define what happened to the is enterprise after the events of mirror mirror but that's how we got there and obviously it's pretty clear like yeah they could shoot on but on the Enterprise sets for Strange New Worlds, because it only shoots like for three months a year. So what else is it going to do? It's just sitting there. And then the other thing he said was that it came down to the Breen and the Vadean for the Big Bad of the sea season.
Races and Story Contribution
00:22:21
Speaker
And so one of the other writers was advocating for the Vadeans. He was kind of making the point that, well, they're kind of a nasty makeup job. What if we did the Breen? They have helmets that would help with our COVID protocols to put people in masks.
00:22:34
Speaker
You know, and that would be kind of we don't know a lot about the the the brain. We actually know a little bit more about the video. And they seem a little more formidable, a little tougher. I would hope that after a thousand years, it would have cured the the phage. That would cure the cure didn't boy. Yeah. So it's a thing kick episode. But they were still pretty ruthless after the after the age came, they became super ruthless because they were like, we just got to do what we got to do. So I could see a world where they cured the phage, but they kept the ruthlessness.
00:23:02
Speaker
So this is the issue where I'm still like, it's it's doing it for doing its sake. that That's what the Vidian felt more like. The Breen, I guess, kind of makes some sense. What do we know about these people? I was really like, who are the Breen? They've mentioned it a few episodes ago. Well, they're in a Deep Space Nine. They're introduced. Oh, that's why. and And I'm not sure if it was this writer, but one of the other writers really got into trying to understand. you know The Breen were basically like, um Ira Bear being like, no, the Ira Bear is just like, I don't want to do another alien with the forehead. Let's just put him in a helmet, like just to do something different, to change them up, giving them a little more mystery. We know the planet's very cold. They're good at handling the cold. But one of the writers on Discovery like called up Robert Hewitt-Wolf for something to get some more information, like what was the intentions with the Breen? I don't think there was that they didn't go that deep into it.
00:23:54
Speaker
But, ah you know, I appreciate that those types of things in the brain do look kind of cool. The idea that their heads are that they're mostly gelatinous, but they can kind of shape into this harder look that Locke has. And that's kind of a shameful thing. Whatever. Like one of the things about Star Trek. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah. but One of the things about Star Trek is like.
00:24:14
Speaker
They're this, they look like this and they do this. Like that was a lot of Star Trek. These are Vulcans, they are logical. Like yeah but these are Klingons, they fight. These are Romulans, they're devious. And in all the new shows, it's like these are the Breen. They look like this. They have this hierarchy and this person has offended this. It's all like it turns it devolves in the Game of Thrones for intrigue.
00:24:38
Speaker
for like literally everything that they're doing. The Romulans and the Vulcans have gotten together. It's like everything
Influence of Fans on Storytelling
00:24:45
Speaker
is something. It's not just one or the other. So it gets kind of weirdly complicated. Do I need to care that he's the nephew of somebody down the totem pole? I don't know. Like ah ah to me, the more emotional story is that he stole something for her and that was more offensive. Their whole, the basis of the relationship I thought was crime. His is like outright murder.
00:25:07
Speaker
It's like, you know what I mean? Like it's a little different. He just got tired of following the rules. And so he he ran off with her. He ran off with this exciting new girl. Yes. It seems like, but because it's when I know what's going on a lot of the time here, you don't trust what you're, what's on the page. You think it has to be deeper, has to be hit harder. So it has to be more and more and more.
00:25:30
Speaker
And a lot of people execs or whatever will read that and be like, is this too soft? And it's like, well, that's what you've got actors. You got you got to let the actors for play the intent, but it just winds up devolving into what if you shot someone?
00:25:44
Speaker
What if there was a gun? Yeah, what if there was a cool fight? And it's just like, okay, well, that's what we get. ah He said that ah one of the reasons why they went with either the Breen or the Vadean was that, and this is the writer talking, I think the studio and Secret Hideout all wanted this season to sort of connect Discovery back to the greater body of Trek a little more.
00:26:08
Speaker
um That didn't mean we had to really dig in the canon, but there was a greater desire to see what we were, where we are familiar with from the past and what it looks like in the 32nd century and how it's different or how it's not different and why. Obviously, this is a season that is focused on an episode from the 24th century, The Chase, your favorite. And so naturally because of that, he said that, it's Theresa's favorite now. And so naturally because of that, every episode focused on the clues is going to be focused on the whims of a 24th century scientist.
00:26:38
Speaker
although they established in this one that Cho is the 23rd century, and whatever, okay. So that this is actually going to have more connections back to what people would consider classic Trek. So he's just doing what the studio's telling him. The studio's saying, you jumped the show ahead so that you could no longer tie it to canon. Now we need you to go back and tie it. Which I don't understand. See, I'm the first one to say, can I get a where are they now? I'm the first one to be like, but what happened to that planet? What happened to that species? What happened to the storyline? Cause I really want to know, but we're so far in the future that like, I love, we have that episode with the ambassadors and we had the sell a delegate. I love that. That is plenty, plenty, plenty. That's all I need. Just show like a pack lid walking in the background. That's it. All I need to be like, Oh, look,
00:27:24
Speaker
This thing you mentioned one time is still a thing. That's actually plenty because it's so far in the future that I'm going to assume all the drama of back then has been resolved and maybe transformed into new drama, but all that drama is over. So there's really no point in even mentioning it because it is so over and just deal with the new, I mean, jumping them ahead in time, it's kind of like Voyager going to the Delta Quadrant.
00:27:48
Speaker
It's like, cool, we don't really need to do Ferengi and Klingons anymore, although they did. and But it's like, we're in a whole new, we're in a whole new quadrant. This gives us the opportunity to have whole new aliens and whole new storylines. And it's fine if we only meet these people once and never ever again, because we're on a journey through this land to get somewhere else.
Classic Trek Canon vs New Storylines
00:28:05
Speaker
And I think that was the, that's what I thought the beauty of discovery was when it did the jump was like, okay, cool. Now we can have all new aliens, all new storylines, all new, everything. Nothing has to do with the past because it was so far in the past that we're just moving forward. So I think being really careful to connect everything back to classic Trek was not necessary. Um, throwing in the cell A from time to time, stuff like that. I just love, you know, but like that's, that's probably enough. Like I didn't need the ISS enterprise. I didn't need it. I mean, we have a Keller in first officer, literally one episode of deep space nine gets us recur supporting character. Uh, that's pretty funny. Yeah. i
00:28:45
Speaker
this is not, you know, this is, this is what happens when studios look at numbers and like what's going to make this. I wonder, do they ever talk to fans though? Like I get studios are looking at numbers and viewership and yada, yada, but is there, are there ever like, I think that I'm going to agree with ah a former guest of ours or a previous guest of ours, Michael Bauman, who's like, sometimes we don't need to listen to the fans. And, and I think the Star Trek people actually probably more than ever have listened to the fans. I don't know what would have happened in the next generation. Well, next gen and Deepsea Stein and Voyager, they have like the Usenet groups. They read internet comments, but it wasn't as as intense as it is now. And to your point, I think that there's so much toxic fandom out there that well, that's interesting. They listen to the positive stuff and the positive stuff is is largely empty praise. Like it's just I love it. You know what I mean? Like it's great.
00:29:39
Speaker
ah Wouldn't it be cool if we saw something we've already seen again is kind of the extent of it because I don't know what? What these should because they're they're not episodic anymore. They're serialized It's really hard for 10 weeks whenever these get dropped to to talk about them in the way that you talked about them before That was a fun idea. That was a fun episode Because almost every episode, and I will o admit this season of Discovery is a little bit different. Strange New Worlds is actually completely different. It's not serialized. But you're kind of waiting for, okay, well, what is this ultimately about? Let's talk about that. Strange New Worlds is not that. It's every week. It's we're doing, we're we're about something. It's usually about a concept. It's not like about an emotion. So I think the way the show can be talked about,
00:30:24
Speaker
is also a little bit different from how it used to be. I think how it is talked about is much different. And I think because there's so much more talk that's and a lot of it's very loud negativity that I think that the the powers that be really only selectively here. Right. I think they really just like, oh, fans want to see more of They don't look at what they don't want. They want to see the enterprise. Let's have the enterprise. Unless their chosen few are saying, we don't want to see this, like the ones that they've like trusted, I think that they largely be like, people want to see more of this. They want discovery. I think it's more like, so many people who are loud,
00:31:04
Speaker
haters of discovery. And let's be honest, there's a lot of people who just don't like seeing a black woman in ah in front of the show. That's easy to ignore, but it's also very loud and constant.
00:31:16
Speaker
I think the positive people being like, it's great there's a black woman on there. I don't know that the show gives them a lot more to chew on beyond certain things. Like I've never seen characters like this or we've got a gay couple that are like together, that's great. Like they brought back a Culber, right? They're like, you can't fridge, you can't kill his relationship. So they like fix that. But then also I think they were like, discovery shouldn't be cordoned off. It shouldn't be like ah the stepchild, the bastard stepchild.
00:31:44
Speaker
And so this was like their way of bringing it back into the fold. they They were creatively trying to reach for something different. They felt like they were weighed down by Canon, which is their fault for setting it as a prequel to TOS, which no one told them to do that. No, they didn't need to do that at all. but But maybe they did that intentionally so they could have the spinoffs. Maybe that was the plan all along. i don't I think so. I think there is an argument to me that they've all all this has been as a stealth reboot of Star Trek. But I think it's just now that they realize that for two seasons we kind of were off on an island, we had so much success with
00:32:16
Speaker
Picard and Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks, that's all like in canon. Maybe now we need to bring make sure Discovery fits with all that stuff now, too. You know, it's interesting that you say, and I know we need to get to the grades, but just last thing, it's interesting that you're saying that, well, first of all, toxic fandom, that's something I haven't heard before, but just the idea that maybe you're listening too much to fans, because I remember with Star Trek Picard season one, I was super excited because I was like, Oh my gosh, we're getting Picard again. Like it was just so exciting. And I liked it. I think it was fine. And then season two, I like hated it. And I would just felt like no one writing that show had ever seen Star Trek before. And
00:32:51
Speaker
season three felt like an apology for season two. It felt like, sorry, sorry, sorry. We're just going to bring back all the people you like that you didn't get to see this whole time. We're going to put them in a mission together. They're going to be on the ship again. And it'll be like old times. And it it just felt like, which I mean, whatever, like that's fine. But that to me felt different from lower decks, which to me felt like it was written by people who love the show. It feels like there's so many Easter eggs. It feels like people were just like, oh, remember this, remember that, remember that time when, ah, this is so fun. You know, and so I really enjoyed that. Discovery felt like it was doing its own thing.
00:33:21
Speaker
And I think being a prequel was a problem because it had way cooler technology than we ever had in the past. So that just didn't never made any sense. But ah putting that aside, I thought it was cool that it was different because that's what, you know, TNG was different from TOS. Voyager was different from TNG. Deep Space Nine was different. Like, it's like the same idea of Star Trek, but a different, you know, make it a different angle.
00:33:45
Speaker
And so I felt like this was a different angle and going to the future I thought was a really good call because now we can just forget canon. We're we don't we're not messing it up. We're doing our own thing. um And I didn't think that maybe listening to fans could drag it down, but you're absolutely right because It feels like a good idea went wrong somewhere or took a turn because I feel like this is a show I should love. And and I agree with you too. There are a lot of people who are just like, Oh, we don't want to see a black woman. So then they're going to come up with all these things that they don't like about the show that they maybe would not have said had it not been a black woman like as
Discovery's Strongest Season
00:34:16
Speaker
a lead. Maybe they would not have had those ex exact complaints. Um, and that's something we'll never know. So, uh, I guess we'll just watch the show go out with a bang since it's over now. it's kind of moot That's That's right. It did its thing. Um, I think.
00:34:30
Speaker
pretty much everyone agrees, though, that this was its strongest season. And I don't think that's because it tied back in the cannon. I think it was it it knew what it was. And it actually told a story that ah these segments all have a beginning, middle and end, which I think was a problem that they ran into even once they cleared the deck and jumped ahead into the future was, OK, maybe the first two episodes, we know pretty much how they're going to be.
00:34:59
Speaker
And then we know what's going to happen in the finale of Big Battle. And then sort of you've got a bunch of episodes in the middle where you don't know what you're doing. And it would be just kind of formless, serialized sludge. And and this season, it's like, whoa, every episode's a clue. And which you pointed out, like does every episode need to be a clue? Does it? you know But that's what there were choices. Last time wasn't, and it was great.
00:35:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think it focused them nonetheless in a way that brought out all their strengths. I think the cast strengths, the writing, the direction like just having one target to hit yeah for every week or every you know shoot schedule like was was really good. And it's not a mystery like previous seasons where it's been like What's causing the burn? What did this? And we have to figure it out. And it's such a mystery. Instead, it's just like, hey, everybody, we need to find five pieces of this clue to get the progenitor tech that could create life or destroy it. yeah Are we all on board? Go team. So it's like, there's no mystery this time. we we We know exactly what we're doing, why we're doing it. It's just the only mystery is how we're going to find the clue. But we all know someone's going to find the clue. Either Federation's going to find it. Moloch going to find it. Someone's finding the clue. Yeah. All right. Let's get into the grades.
Classic Trek Tropes
00:36:10
Speaker
Let's start with great scenes. Okay, so I don't have any, how about you? Me neither. Okay, well that was a fast that was a fast category. You like the shootout? Um, I did like the shootout. I put that under visually exciting or whatever, because at first I didn't realize what was going on. And I said, wait, I thought there was like three, three signatures or whatever. And now there's like eight people in this room. So I was like, what are these like extra people? Were their signatures dampened? Like I really didn't, I did not understand what was going on until they were like, Oh, of course they're using holographic doubles. I was like, Oh, I did. Like that wasn't even a guess. So I was thinking like there were some,
00:36:48
Speaker
I don't know zombies on the ship because we have seen zombies this season or something that has been like reanimated. And they're like that. And I just was like, what is going to happen? But then it was holograms. But that So I thought I liked book giving the odds. Only two of these are going to be real. I like those odds. That was cute. I appreciated. I appreciated some of the showdown scenes, like because sinni kumar all the actors were great in the when they're all pointing faces at each other.
00:37:16
Speaker
It just kind of goes on for too long. I really like the performance in the, in the Burnham Rainer scene at the beginning, but that is unmistakably a repeat of, of the previous weeks. But this time it's, it's Rainer pulling her aside to talk to her. Well, for some reason they don't beam into the ready room.
00:37:35
Speaker
You know, they walk into the science room into the into the lab there. So but it's just like, well, I just saw this scene last week and it was much better. It also set up the emotions of the whole episode. This is just you know, I did like that scene, though, because once again we have this this is actually one of my worst trek tropes um so we're skipping ahead a little save it save it save it save it yeah but but you but you still like this scene even though it had a worst trek trope in it yeah so i thought there were some there were some fine scenes in there but i gotta just be honest this episode is very loud and noisy
00:38:09
Speaker
And and messy. And I think I mentioned I was a snob. This one definitely did mention that that i this episode definitely fell down into Saturday afternoon syndicated sci fi garbage, especially all the stuff on the green ship when they're on the volume yeah and all that. It's just like I don't care. And it doesn't look spellbinding. It looks like generic science fiction. And I get it. Some people like that because they like to turn off the news and turn on something that they wouldn't see anywhere else. i'm not and I don't like watch the news. and and real like I don't watch a lot of TV that's based on reality. yeah Anyway, I try to watch as much stylized stuff as I can, or movies. Anyway, all right, so neither of us had great scenes. Fair enough. Best trek tropes.
00:38:56
Speaker
Okay, I have four of those. So the first one is the personal log from book at the beginning of the show. And then I just wrote my notes because actually I honestly don't remember. Do they do personal logs on this show? Oh my goodness. Okay. Do they or do they not? I don't recall. They do. They do. It's one of my worst trick troops is that there's like discovery, especially in the previous two seasons has a lot of opening Pablum.
00:39:19
Speaker
Like it's just they're talking about basically like greeting card level of emotions to set up the themes of the episode. That does not happen here. Book is actually much more on story. And in Strange New Worlds, they always change who the who's giving the log. Yeah. and but And they're usually talking about what the mission is and what they're feeling about it. And that's kind of the point of the logs are. Yeah. Yes. And that's fine. But like usually in Discovery, it's like Burnham opening up with people are always going through something. It's like playing this melodic music. And it's so when they did it with book, it kind of starts in that direction, but then it kind of, but that's fine. It's okay for you to, I mean, usually yeah know but i put as best try because i love because I love logs in general.
00:40:03
Speaker
on Star Trek because they, like you said, they set up the mission and how we're feeling about the mission. And that's just like, it's a unique thing to this specific universe where it's always like, okay, star date, yada, yada, yada. We are on our way to such and such place and I'm going to see my mom or whatever. You know, it's like, I just, I think that's a fun thing and it's, it's, you my mother is on board.
00:40:24
Speaker
Yes. And I don't know how this is gonna go. It just it sets up that I just like that. um And maybe it's like this part, like a 90s kid part of my heart that just loves, you know, all the movies in the 90s, all the kid kiddie bopper movies in the 90s started that way with the backstory, like first, let me tell you who I am. you know and It starts with like basically a personal log. My second one is that the ship can't go in. It's far too big. We have to use a shuttle. so I put that as best trope. A lot of these, I was like, should it be best or should it be worst? But I put it as best because I think it constrains the storytelling.
00:40:58
Speaker
in a sensible way. Like a lot of times it's like, oh, if we get too close, the ship's going to be sucked in or destroyed or smashed or whatever. It has to be a shuttle. And it's usually kind of dumb. Like the reason, however, the fact that it's a shuttle, it makes the story more interesting because shuttles obviously are not as powerful and they're, they're just, it's just going to give you, you know, something's going to happen to that shuttle. You know, they're gonna have to be beamed up before they explode. Like, you know, what's going to happen, but you don't know when. And so I think that's kind of fun.
00:41:22
Speaker
Um, I love when they're on the bridge and Rayner's just like options. He doesn't say it that way. That's how Picard would have said it, but that's basically what he says. And then they all are like, you know, giving their idea on how to handle an impossible situation. That's literally one of my favorite things about Star Trek in general is that everybody has a voice and good ideas can come from anywhere. And when you have a good idea, you just go because we only have 60 seconds left, which is one of my worst Trek tropes. There's always only 60 seconds left.
00:41:47
Speaker
And then um the last one was the secret code 3414 to save the day. I like when the people, when the crew have like secret codes or like a look that they give and somehow it has all this meaning and you're like, oh my gosh, they totally figured out that Picard's an imposter and they're gonna trap him in a force field. And you know, like they figure all this out with like a nod and a wink and they just somehow get that. It's very Sherlock Holmes to me where it's just, it's something where you're like a normal person would not have caught that. But because you guys are so close, you get things that normal people would never get.
00:42:23
Speaker
And I just think that's so fun. So those are my four. I had ah when Burnham says, as they say in the Battle of Cruel, serve it with a grum of without a grum of Asakod, I liked the cultural exchange. And I was relieved to finally see that someone on Discovery had actually read about Raynor, who had very clearly, as much of a jerk as he had been, had taken the time to research. It's really everyone. Everybody. And none of those twerps when he's interviewing them had any questions to ask or things to say, not even like they only had 20 words though. Yeah, well, they didn't try to like kiss up. Like, could I get more than 20 words if we talk about blah, blah, blah, you know what I mean? yeah They didn't vary any of that until he till he's like, till he doesn't want to know about anybody, you know, this is like,
00:43:16
Speaker
She's so neurotic, she can't see past her own nose. So she's just like, whatever. So it's just like, nice to see. And of course, Burnham would know and use the right thing to say. And I think his laugh was more like, ha you know that story. It's like, I can't believe it's taken three weeks. or somebody to learn something about the Kelleran. But I appreciate that. I like the cultural exchange. It's nice when I'm not usually a fan of when they put like future dialogue, like what's the word for cool in the 24th century? That one was a Nova or whatever. I don't like that. But and it's weird. It's so rare, actually, when they put alien this in
00:43:55
Speaker
the human character's mouths. Usually it is the alien character saying human expressions just to make it easier for the audience. But I appreciated that here and Burnham, isn't she like an anthropologist or like something like that? Like she has that as a background for her. I have no idea, but it makes sense that she would know that. Makes perfect sense. Yeah, it wasn't, she wasn't that condescending. I think she was trying to actually convey like, hey, I'm on your side.
00:44:19
Speaker
And so what do you have to say? I actually want to hear your concern. And that's why I kind of like that scene. But I thought that was good. That was my only real best trek trope was ah recognizing that you're a part of a larger galaxy, yeah not being so human focused. a Worst trek tropes. I'm kicking it off. Grudge is not a thing. They really try.
00:44:40
Speaker
People will like us if we put a cat in the show. and We won't get criticized if a kitty cat's in there. What if we just cut to the cat for reactions? What if we did a book of grudge and put that out there?
00:44:55
Speaker
There are people who just love cats. And so a Star Trek cat, that's that's a winner. That'll make money and that will that will garner love. And of course, there are people who just because they have the cat brain worms, they like anything cat related. They're like, I have a cat.
00:45:11
Speaker
And I like cats, too, but I'm not like seeing Grudge going like, great, Grudge doesn't effectively do anything. Grudge has hailed the ship before, you know, it's like, but it's not it's just a thing they keep trying to force on us. And up until this episode, they did a really good job of just being like, oh, yeah, and there's Grudge. I'm like, cool. Someone has a cat. That's about the level that it should be. um It wasn't fun when they would indulge in porthos stuff.
00:45:37
Speaker
spot we would get every so often. I think we forget that Data had a cat and it wasn't that big of a deal. And in here Grudge becomes such a focal point. You know, a book seems like such a cool guy to even take any time in an emergency to talk about his cat is kind of like the the response she saying that that's not cool that he's not thinking about his cat right now the mall should have been like bro are you talking about a cat what's going on right now she would not know who grudge is or what he's even talking about yeah sure nor would she care which is exactly what happened the scene she's just like anyways with this panel anyway like grudge would love this okay
00:46:14
Speaker
It's a discovery thing. I just stopped trying to force Grudge on the public. doesn't It doesn't survive very far outside of the radius of the studio. ah The Mirror Universe, another discovery trope. they have You know, Deep Space Nine actually kind of ran the idea into the ground because they were sequelizing Mirror Mirror all the time. They're like, what if Spock took Kirk's advice and he tried to make the Terran Empire better? Well, guess what? He made it so weak that the Klingons and the Cardassians and the Bajorans were able to gang up on them and take over. And that's what
00:46:45
Speaker
The Hold and Terrans are basically the impoverished people because they treated people like shit for so long. yeah Now they're getting their comeuppance. So they really did run that idea into the ground. And then Discovery was like, well, the bigger universe is about killing and shooting. And that's cool. And we want to make Star Trek.
00:47:03
Speaker
cool. So then it was all about that. And then we've got Georgie and all that. So whenever Discovery especially kind of revisits the scene of the crime, I'm not really that invested in it. And I don't think they really do it any, um they don't really add anything to it. Here we get this idea that they are refugees on the ISS enterprise trying to cross over, ah which kind of undercuts the whole Terran resistance in Deep Space Nine in a way because it's like if you create an opportunity where there is hope you are undercutting the like why wasn't there whole aim towards just trying to get it across once they knew about this mere universe you know what I mean like too many people know about this mere universe and know by having this refugee thing here it was just weird
00:47:52
Speaker
And then the last one is I disagreed, but I think we have to give your best trick show to them breaking out the how they're going to solve the problem. I put it as a worst trick because it was just nonsense techno babble and it was one long pair. Like when Discovery does it, you can very much tell that they write out what the whole solution is and then they just break it out into different characters. No one is speaking in a way that's unique to them. And what is what is happening? They're going to.
00:48:22
Speaker
Take stuff out of photon torpedoes and use that antimatter to help with their energy beam That's what's gonna happen. They're gonna like every discovery um Idea involves like taking parts from the ship like ripping parts of the whole out or moving stuff from different systems and cannibalizing them to do something else and then at the end Rayner asks, why is it hexa hexagonal this shape and then and then they cut to Anthony rapidly goes because it'll work and I'm just like, this is just so ridiculous because they need to give the crew lines to show that they're working together to solve the problem and and it's just techno-babble nonsense that doesn't make any sense.
00:49:04
Speaker
Well, that's kind of Trek II. It's techno-babble nonsense that doesn't make any sense. I blame Voyager for that. I blame Voyager for that. Well, how many times did Journey say reverse the polarity? Like, that's always the solution. So it's like, eh, Monara. OK, fine. We're not taking the tech through the whole episode. And and also, in later seasons of and Next Generation when they were doing that, it was the show getting stale and running out.
00:49:27
Speaker
of gas. When it becomes the point, it but it becomes it's all a techno-babble solution. ah Your idea that they're all working together to do it, that's a good Trek trope though. Yes, I do love that. To me, I'm not going to say techno-babble is a bad trope because techno-babble just is so foundational to me for Trek, but I could understand it being a worse Trek trope because it never means anything.
Techno-babble Critique
00:49:48
Speaker
I never want it to mean anything. I don't want them to try to explain it more because it becomes more and more nonsense.
00:49:53
Speaker
like give me as little, like just give me a little bit and just move to like, okay, so we're going to make it explode. Great. Perfect. Let's make it explode. But they're like, let's use some of the emergency jump juice. Let's, we can pull from the structural integrity. We could take anti-matter out of the photon torpedoes. I'm like, that's desperation. I mean, that's like, you're about to die. That's not what's going on here. Like in one of the episodes of Star Trek was we need to hold a door open. What if we have a shuttle just boost its shields? hold the door open for the enterprise. yeah That's basically all they're doing here. and yeah They make it more complicated, I think, than it has to to make it seem like by complexity it's more interesting and that's not actually the case. You could have found an emotional reason. Rainer could have just had an issue. like they could try They could have tried and failed.
00:50:41
Speaker
a couple of times. You know what I mean? like Well, here's the thing. They couldn't have tried and failed because of what I have as one of my worst trek tropes is we've only got one shot at this. We don't have much time. And that's why they couldn't have tried a bunch of things. They had 60 seconds to open the hole so the enterprise could come out.
00:50:58
Speaker
And like, why does it have to I get that it's exciting, I get it's very exciting, but it doesn't always need to be down to the wire, it doesn't need to be 60 seconds, it could be, we've got, you know, 30 minutes to try because sometimes I do this on track to where they're like, we've got an hour, we've got 30 minutes, we've got, you know, time, but then we're gonna like dive radiation poisoning or run out of food or something.
00:51:18
Speaker
thing But like, they'll give you some time so you can be like, well, we tried this and we tried this and we tried this and now our energy reserves are getting lower and lower and lower because we keep trying things. But that to me sounds like what people would do what like rational, logical, scientific people would do, they'd be like, okay, let's try this. Let's try that. But with with discovery and mini tracks, it's like, we've only got one shot at this. There's not much to like I literally copy and pasted that phrase from my worst track tropes in the very first episode.
00:51:43
Speaker
of this like I went down to the document of the first episode I copied and pasted it for this episode because it was the same idea that we only have 60 seconds so everybody say whatever you can that's why it's all frenetic and everyone's desperate but somehow they come up with the magic solution in 60 seconds and it saves the day now what I would have liked to see is they tried a few things that didn't work someone stumbled upon this solution but it's only going to work once and then this other thing it's only going to work one time and it's going to close forever so if we don't get it right we're going to like doom them Well, that makes perfect sense. Like we've got one shot because it will doom forever, but isn't what you're like, what you're suggesting actually is more like the Martian where it's like, it's a multi-step thing and there's different phases to the plan and it has to work. And then what happens while they execute it, a fuse blows out or whatever.
00:52:29
Speaker
for some complication and someone has to do something different. All the potatoes freeze over and now you're like, we'll shoot. That was my big plan to survive for two months. Now what am I going to do? yeah And then that like forces the characters to be really, I mean, if we're going to focus on character characters being clever, give them enough time to be clever. But honestly, there was too much going on this episode for that to even be an additional layer. It needed to be, I think this episode needs to be stripped of a couple of other spare parts that didn't need. And then we could have focused on the crew being clever. And then what I, other the other thing I would have liked to see is when they wedged open the door that it just like shut really quickly and like cut the ship in half, but the bridge was fine or something like that. Like that's what I was expecting to see because this was such a like delicate moment. And, and I was like, if it only has 60 seconds of time for this giant ship to get out, that cannot go any faster than like half impulse.
00:53:19
Speaker
Is that enough time for this big ship to go through the hole? Like 60 seconds seems like not enough time, but apparently it was, it was plenty. So I feel like they really worked backwards from, we want the ship to be a museum piece that they forgot that you could separate the saucer. You could dump the nacelles. They could have done something we've never seen the enterprise do before, but Roddenberry had put in there and the Apple, they had talked about jettisoned the nacelles just.
00:53:44
Speaker
get rid of them. They're drag on the ship. But also the saucer separation was in there from the original series. We just they just couldn't afford to do it. They never found a story reason to do it. And that's why it happened in the next generation. And then we did it three times in the next generation. And it was so cool every time. It's like, why don't we do this more? So you could have just done something different with that Constitution design that we'd never seen before. Especially, yeah, if you're trying to tie it to canon. The opportunities abounded and instead they kind of just did the Voyager ending of teching the tech. to Yes, so here are my other worst trek tropes.
00:54:21
Speaker
Uh, too many heart to hearts. That's a discovery specific. Yes. Um, just way too many heart to hearts. Like I couldn't even care about, I couldn't even care enough to care. It was just Lori, Lori Ulster at trekmovie dot.com likes to call them the check-ins.
00:54:35
Speaker
Too many freaking check-ins. Stop checking in on me. um so i And I feel like, again, I feel like it's so many that it dilutes the power of them. Because instead of being like, wow, what a special moment, it becomes like, oh, another moment, another moment. another And then it's less special. You good? Are you good? Are you good? You're good. Are you good? You're sure you're good? You're good. Just making sure you're good. How are you feeling right now? Well, I'm feeling pretty scared that we're going to die. So that's that's mostly what I'm feeling. But I'm also thinking about my childhood and my parents. Really?
00:55:04
Speaker
And then truing your fear of dying as like, no one's ever, wow, yeah, that's, I can see how that would be a fear that one might have.
00:55:15
Speaker
um We've lost comms. So I put that as my works trek trope. And I just put, yeah, so let's just assume you're going to lose comms. And let's make a plan for that. Let's just assume there will be no comms. I'm the opposite. What do you get by being a 32nd century starship if you can't do certain things that other Star Trek shows couldn't do as well? Because you're absolutely right. If this is the Enterprise D or Voyager or the Cerritos, I expect them to lose their comms. That makes perfect sense. They're in an interdimensional pocket. I get it.
00:55:49
Speaker
but what You have the burn. How are you communicating across fastest? You know what I mean? Like your tech is basically magical starting headquarters exists in like a pocket dimension. It's like it's it's what is going on here. and That just seems like especially with ah discoveries technology, you've got the programmable matter. Like there's all these different things that are like You losing the comms is like movies today figuring out a reason to make sure the cell phones don't work. And then you don't pay phones and you can't use somebody else's cell phone cause you're in the middle of the forest or something like that. The boring emotional reason is discovery. You know, once they cross over, Burnham's like, you're absolutely not bringing the ship in here under no circumstances am I jeopardizing anyone else.
00:56:39
Speaker
uh to come over here this is way too dangerous like we had no idea what we were gonna expect in here you know i mean like so figure out a way to open keep the thing open she could have been her directive and then it's up to Rainer to figure that out and then that's still very star trekky that happened in the original series all the time where Kirk would be stranded on the planet and Scotty's like a giant hand is holding us zero whatever And it's like, well, we got to figure out how to break the grip and get me out of here. And and I think that would have been perfectly fine. It didn't have to be this, we're in a total blackout. Giant hand.
00:57:13
Speaker
yeah A giant hand is holding us in space. My other trek trope that I put as worst is, okay, it's worse. But again, this is what makes good story, I guess, is when Burnham decides to take the shuttle with book. And this is also a very discovery thing. Like Burnham goes on every away mission. Sometimes she just makes a pro on away missions and you know,
00:57:41
Speaker
because she can't possibly risk every single person who serves on her crew. So she just risks herself continuously ad nauseam. And it's just like so silly to me because I'm like the captain should never do this. So that's why I like the scene where Rainer was just like, the captain shouldn't do this. And for her to be like, Oh, yeah, no, I get that. I totally get that. But I still want to do it. And for Rainer to be like, All right, well, you're the boss. Like, I just felt like why didn't we say this when she first became captain, the captain shouldn't do this, you know, with Saru and her being like, Yeah, no, you're right. But I want to do it anyways. And through being like, All right, cool. See you later.
00:58:10
Speaker
Bye. Maybe you don't need to say it in every episode. Now I'm kind of foggy if Rainer dropped this in the previous episode. But I feel like you actually get a lot of leeway in that situation with dropping the, it's a red directive. You know what I mean? Like we're pulling out all the stops. the the rule i thought Long before there was a red directive. Oh, for sure. But I mean, like, to reason with Rainer. No, you're totally right. No. I'm just to give her more weight. She could be like, I was a red directive. That's why yeah yeah you were telling me if something. Yeah, you did all because she asked him when was the last time you took the con from somebody? Wouldn't be like, how many red directives were you not front and center of? You know what I mean? You did because he said he's done what, seven or eight or 10 red directives. I don't think it needed to be that many, here by the way. but like You know, and did you ever sit out a red directive? Were you just sitting on the bridge? Uh, so just like something like that. But yeah, it's still, you're absolutely right. That's a very good worst truck trope. I think, yeah, I think that's really dumb and I always think it's dumb. And every time the captain goes on a weigh mission, I think it's dumb. However, like I said, it does make for good stories. And I know one of the things, I'm not a big TOS, uh, expert, but I know the funny, you know, trope from that is like, don't be a red shirt. Cause the red shirts always get killed on the planet. yeah And then they switch that up for TNG, where the red shirts are like command. And they only sometimes die. um But the main characters never do, right? And so that's why the main characters can go on away missions. Because as long as you're a main character, you're probably going to be safe. You might get kidnapped. You might get a little singed. But you're getting back to the ship AOK at some point. um And so like it makes the story better. Because if it was a bunch of red shirts, it's hard to be emotionally invested in them. And what happens to them? Because you don't know them. And they're just nameless, faceless characters to get assassinated. So it's nice.
00:59:49
Speaker
that Burnham and Book go because we do like have a connection to them versus random people from the ship we've never met. So that's why I'm like, it's a worst trek trope because it's just so illogical. yeah But it's like hard to really be too hard on it because that's what that's the whole reason why we even care is because it has to be characters we actually care about.
01:00:07
Speaker
Otherwise, we can't have an away mission that matters. I agree with you. I will add though, intellectually, I think maybe we've swung too far in the other direction. Like that there's been such a strong backlash that TOS did this so much that we just can't do it anymore. it It cheapens life. It never did in the original series. It always established the stakes and Kirk would almost always be very upset by it.
01:00:31
Speaker
like and it would it would put a chip on it. Well I'm sure there are a couple of moments where it's like whatever but for the most part it was always to be like oh you're gonna kill my crew I'm gonna make sure I'm gonna ruin your entire plan here for that like and and so it would give you Instant stakes. And if you consider that in the old days, people would watch one out of every four episodes and still be considered a huge fan of the show. That's crazy to think about, right? So, but like, so you need to establish stakes. What are they going to do in this situation? This is the where it could go.
01:01:06
Speaker
i I guess I'm saying like there's a version where they're a body count makes sense. And we're, we're halfway through the season and we haven't seen any, like this discovery crew is pristine. You know what I mean? Like no one's suffered not, no one's even had a bad moment. They haven't like lost a hand that could be regrown or something. Do you mean just in the season? Yeah, just even in the season, there's been no weight to the, to what's going on here. It's all just been kind of like.
01:01:32
Speaker
like no danger to them, no personal danger. Cost playing adventure, you're kind of like going, it's kind of like D and&D where you're just sitting at a table and rolling die and like all the jeopardy is kind of removed, you're not in it. So to your point, it's correct. I just, I agree completely with what you're saying. I'm like, you know, some of these other shows, Strange New Worlds should, you know, we should start offing some people. We should start losing a few red shirts. Yeah, some red shirts. We should start to care a little a little bit about losing the crew.
01:02:02
Speaker
Like, we're so focused on the individual now that we're kind of losing that they're part of a bigger ship. Well, you know what I like about Voyager is we did lose a few red shirts, but Janeway was always like, because they were alone in the Delta Quadrant, they always kept the count of like how many people were on the ship, right? So it'd be like, oh, we've lost three. you know it seems like such a bigger deal because there's humans. Yeah but like when who was the guy that got eaten by the giant worm when they were stranded on the planet? I don't remember. They were not that upset about it for very long like when when we go and do some voyagers I'm gonna be like Kirk was upset. Yeah but they weren't like having a funeral like a moment of silence for that guy. People want to criticize Kirk when they're on the planet and you just watch someone die like, Kirk, wasn't that broken up about it? The guy's now pointing a gun at him and I think he should be sad about it. It's like, double standard. Janeway was like, moving on, time to find a cave where the bugs won't get us. Janeway was like, did that guy just get eaten? Back up from the cave. Everybody back up. Big 10 sits back. Something about that cave is not right. I see a uniform and a leg and that's it.
01:03:06
Speaker
We gotta, we gotta find a different cave. It was a good thing it was pre seven of nine because seven of nine would have been like, his death will improve crew efficiency by 4%. More rations for the rest of us. All right. Most cosplayable character or moment?
01:03:24
Speaker
Um, I said, I guess the brain uniform. Cause I liked the retractable face plate. That was just a, that was neat. I would like to see somebody actually create that in real life, which I'm sure someone has. Um, I want to see someone try to try to evoke the, the digital the gelatinous clear headed state. Look like obviously there's a way that you can go with makeup. I'm sure. Yeah. You can paint a mask. Yeah. It'd have to be like a blue light only, you know, in the dark kind of makeup that's green, but it glows, but that could look really cool.
01:03:53
Speaker
Any phase of the Breen, even if you were to, someone were to do a lock, you know, Mighty Morphin Power Rangers bad guy. That was still a pretty cool. So i'd say I would never mind. I was gonna be like the mall cost players. They have it pretty easy, but her, her wig and is out of control.
01:04:14
Speaker
Oh my God. like was that Was that Christine Chappell's wig? Did they also, they borrowed the Stranger Worlds bridge. Did they also buy borrow Chappell's wig to slap on Eve Harlow? I'm not sure. ah Now it's time for the line must be drawn. here Great lines. I have one. How many do you have?
01:04:33
Speaker
So my first one is, you're not alone. It sounded better when you said it. Because they say that every episode. And I just like that he was like, that he kind of acknowledged it's been said. We we have said this before. So I like that. And then the second line is, I don't need to know how the cake is boiled. Don't knock it till you try it. i Because I love cake. And that just really gross me out. but So I won't say it was a great line, but I will say it was a memorable line. Both of these lines, like I remembered after they said them. Boiling cake feels like it would Not be good. ah Burn away all the goodness. Yeah. I think it would be pudding, but like not in a good way. Not in a good way. Yeah. Uh, mall captain, put down your phasers. Yeah. I really see the appeal.
01:05:16
Speaker
Now, would this episode be a fun hollow novel to play out? Uh, I said, no, I think I would die of boredom. Yeah. I don't want to hear all that backstory. Yeah. I have to read a plaque and like heart to hearts and backstory. And that's not a fun game at all.
01:05:32
Speaker
And shooting the hollow characters is, you know, it's over pretty quickly. um I guess just for anyone listening who's unclear in Voyager especially, they call going on the holodeck and doing stuff. Most of the time those are hollow novels where you're playing out a story by being one of the characters.
01:05:50
Speaker
Deep Space
Holodeck Adventures Discussion
01:05:51
Speaker
Nine did this. Bashir, though, was like in in James Bond. And, ah you know, Dixon Hill, ah Captain Picard's interest, those were pulp novels. So I think Voyager's work got cemented as a hollow novel. But previously to that, it was just like, would this be fun to play on the holodeck? And I've I just thought for most a lot of fans that it would be known as a hollow novel, but it turns out that's not the case. So I'm just making it clear in case it was fuzzy what a hollow novel is.
01:06:16
Speaker
That's always, will this be a fun holodeck adventure to have, I guess is probably the cleaner way of saying that. And we both say no. Yeah, not this one.
Anton Caridian Award for Best Performance
01:06:24
Speaker
The Anton Caridian Award for Best Performance. Um, I don't know. I said, I think Malin Lok had some intense moments. You're awarding most acting in those situations though. That's, have you heard that expression before? No. There's a, for like Academy Awards, there's There's this idea that the most histrionic, most intense where you're shouting and you're being a historical person, you're doing the most acting to bring someone to life. But really great acting we talk about all the time is like you're listening, there's some nuance. So like the example is ah Al Pacino, Incent of a Woman versus Al Pacino or Scarface versus Al Pacino and Serpico.
01:07:08
Speaker
come completely different to Al Pacino type of performances. He's obviously playing a different character, but like the 70s Pacino versus any, basically any later version of him or it's a completely different guy approaching these roles. He's going very big. But to this point about Anti-Caridian for this episode, it's tough because I didn't have one because I wanted to say this.
01:07:32
Speaker
Our main cast is a really good job, like Burnham, like a Sineko Martin Green. She's usually good in every episode. I think she's good here. It's always the material, right? Like I don't, I thought the book was really great in the earlier episodes. And I think he's good here, but I don't think book is particularly but well written in this episode in particular. So.
01:07:52
Speaker
I don't know, it's tricky. I guess I kind of want to give it to Callum Keith Renney as Rayner, because he actually plays different dimensions, but it doesn't sound like you're into that. Do we want to just give it to Sneakle Martin-Green because she's always good? Yes. Yes.
01:08:07
Speaker
I still like the part where she's like, where he's like, can we be in the same prison together? And she's like, I could advocate for that. I can't make any promises that you might be able to see each other through the, through the bars. All right. We'll give it a Sanico Martin green. Cause she's the one that gives it any sort of central. Okay.
Eve Harlow's Portrayal and Shatner Award
01:08:24
Speaker
Uh, so then the Shatner, all right. It sounds like I'm on, on an Island here. It's got to be Eve Harlow as mall.
01:08:32
Speaker
You must be the one who wanted to talk to me. Hi, I'm Ma. I like Latin and long walks the beach. Now, part of that is writing, but her performance is immediately as over the top mustache twirling as it could be. And I mean, to be fair, she is acting against people whose faces you cannot see. So she's got to provide all the life in those flashbacks. Yes. But even in the present day shots,
01:09:01
Speaker
she's kind of unbearable like she's just really going for it which i guess is the better way to look at the shatner it's not like bad acting it's just like who is going for it and at all times she's trying to portray that i'm the punk You know, I'm the, I'm, I'm dangerous. I'm the rebel. Yeah. So I'm going to fist fight this card with this big gun because I'm going to punch it in the face. I want her to have some, I want her to be afraid of being shot in the face though. Like at one point she's just like, go ahead, shoot me green eyes. It's like, no no no fear. Okay. No concern.
01:09:43
Speaker
hesitation hesitation about getting shot in the face. She's tough and everyone's tough in the exact same way. You know, it's like that there's no shades that reveal their character. They did the walking into the gun thing again. Did you see that? Yes. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I love that. I was like, I was like, I hope he walked into the gun and he walked into the gun. I was like, okay, so there's definitely a, there's like a, you know, they're nothing if not consistent, right? We're going to walk into the weapon.
01:10:09
Speaker
ah Since she's all about dropping lines in the face of death, ah funny lines in the face of death, she could have been like, why would you shoot such a beautiful face? And then they they just like moves the phaser down to her desk or something. And she's like, that's better. Yes, yes, that would have been that would have been great and hilarious. yeah But maybe they didn't want any kind of hilarity in that moment. They just wanted to be like. Oh, just every other moment literally around.
01:10:35
Speaker
I don't know. there wasn't that There wasn't that much humor in this particular episode. It was more it was more heart-to-hearts and serious sad. Yeah. Shoot to thrill most exciting image or sequence.
01:10:47
Speaker
So I liked the fight scene with the hollow doubles. I put de koi, de koi, de koi in my notes. um Just because that was just was fun. um And I also really liked the wormhole. I always like wormholes.
Visual Effects Admiration
01:11:00
Speaker
I always like spacey shots. Granted, they're in space. So that's a little bit of a cop out because we're like often going to get space shots, but they're so gorgeous. So I love seeing the wormhole pulse. That's new. Never seen that before. And then I like when it blew up, but then it came back, but then disappeared for good.
01:11:14
Speaker
I was like, oh, that's like, again, that's kind of a neat idea. So that's that's what I put. What about you? Uh, the shot that haunting shot of a, of the enterprise coming out of the pocket, it's kind of more silhouetted the way the lighting is. And that's something you could not really do. You could do a version of that in the past with the models though, it would be kind of hard to make it look as haunting or as artistic as it does here in high def and the computer animation.
Real Science in Star Trek
01:11:44
Speaker
So I just thought it was a cool looking shot.
01:11:46
Speaker
um yeah i mean that's the thing that they try to do with the new stuff you said the wormhole collapses and then that final bit of energy gets expressed as like an expulsion explosion like that's all the stuff where they're like the they try to hang real science at the end of some of these weird things because that that distortion that pocket looks Remember they couldn't see it at first. I'm like, how could you not see that? It's a massive. And then they did a show and tell them the bridge to show how you can actually see it. And I was like, okay, we couldn't have just, we couldn't have just calmed that over. Yeah. Hey bridge, change your settings. yeah Now check it out. You have to come up to the front. By the way, why are these ships so gigantic? That bridge is like bigger than my house. And even the shuttle is just as big as the bridge. Because they have to, it's literally that they've built sets to fill the frame. And so the frames are larger. Unreal.
Episode Lessons for Starfleet Academy
01:12:40
Speaker
I'm pretty sure the entire cast is on the bridge at the same time yes with all the COVID space you can want. It's why? it's happening Because it will work. What part of this will they teach at Starfleet Academy? I put that tractor beams can work through wormholes because I didn't know that until this episode.
01:13:00
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that seems seems like a lot of they could have said something important to them but like, like what Anthony Rapp's character Stamets is so concerned this season with legacy. He's like a transphasic tractor beam. No one's out of that before. You know what I mean? Like it's got to deal with the not just the dimensional distortion inside the pocket, but also the crossover distortion. A transit ring between the pockets.
01:13:26
Speaker
Anyway, ah that's a good one. I just put good question. So I think it's pretty clear that the the mirror universe is being taught and it's it appears in some course at Starfleet Academy. Like there's clearly enough data from not just Kirk's crossover, ah but between that and then the Deep Space s Nine crossover,
01:13:51
Speaker
this idea that there were refugees and they had to have been picked up, somebody knew about it. There's an entire history. Oh, and we know that they went to the mirror universe, uh, in discovery season one. So like all of this is, is like very clearly stuff that gets taught. Now that doesn't really track with deep space nine when they do their crossover, they're kind of like fuzzy on the recollection of it.
01:14:16
Speaker
Uh, if they were redoing it today, it'd be funny. You'd have a character who'd be like, Oh, I remember this. I thought it was bullshit. there's a real Um, could this episode have been
Romantic Subplot Critique
01:14:27
Speaker
hornier? And would that have made it better for sure? I don't think there's that much horniness in the flashbacks.
01:14:32
Speaker
I mean, they make out a few times on the Breen's cargo ah hold or whatever. I don't know. I just. I'm just not buying their attraction. It's too like hot girl and boy. It's too random, but it's like that. He's a royalty. I guess could be a motivator, but there's nothing about him. Like why would she be attracted to him? ah Exactly. How is he different from any other Breen walking down the walkway?
01:14:59
Speaker
my wife has been watching a lot of Sex and the City lately, which you'd seen before. And I've seen it before, and I like the show, and I watch it. And even like some of the sub characters that are like nerdy and like how do they have a chance or whatever, they always do ah they always give a moment to some of these guys that the women are sleeping with, even if it's casual, to give us an idea of why the character would be into them at all in the moment. And I don't think they did a good job of that here, and that could have added into it.
01:15:28
Speaker
And I think once they're on the enterprise and they're kind of shooting around, you know we see them making out after a dude died at the beginning of the last episode. And I don't feel like any of that's here this time around. like It seems like the more fraught a situation is, the more turned on there. I thought that was the idea. The more turned turned on they would get. um and And you could have maybe played that up a little bit.
01:15:51
Speaker
as they could have made out over the bodies instead of pick up before or like, or it's just some, it could have been a comment of like how Burnham and book when they were couriers was kind of a turn on for the two of them. So to play on an idea that got introduced in last week's episode. So I guess it's another part of this episode that's a bummer, which will lead into my final grade here, Trek, Merry, or Kill, um was that it kind of seemed disconnected from the work that was done in the previous episode. And if someone were to tell me that there was actually that this was actually reordered, like maybe this was episode four and they flipped it, I would actually buy it a lot more.
01:16:27
Speaker
um because there's just something a there's just something that doesn't flow from what we had been establishing in a way and so tonally it was kind of off um we didn't highlight any great scenes i think there's pretty good performances from our main cast throughout but it's just so much backstory uh and i guarantee folks if you are out of time and you only have time to watch eight or nine episodes of Discovery.
Decision to Skip Episode 5
01:16:54
Speaker
This is one you can skip. It's a kill. You can just watch the recap on the next episode, which will give you the data you need from this one to know to have in mind as they go into this one. but Maybe you should have said that at the beginning, Brian.
01:17:08
Speaker
but At this point, you've heard every bit of everything about this episode, so you've kind of watched it already. Yeah, I agree with you. I gave it a kill. um And my reason was, it's just too many heart tarts. And I said, I wanted to care, but I just didn't. like i wanted to I wanted to be like, ooh. But I think, it i at the end, like I said, it's just too many. It's just way too many to make any of them meaningful. Way too many flashbacks to make any of them meaningful.
01:17:36
Speaker
It either needed to be all about that or or very, very slight subtle dustings of that on the background of some other story. So something that they did poorly in the first season of Star Trek TNG was they always had like an A plot and a B plot.
01:17:54
Speaker
and the B plot never had anything at all to do with the A plot at all. It was like, it was just ridiculous, like the Anticans in the cell A. Like there was an electricity monster that took over several people on the ship, ended up taking over Picard and blasting him out into space into some nebula so that the electricity monsters could have another electricity person.
01:18:10
Speaker
And at the same time, the Anticans and Selia are running through the ship trying to kill each other. Has nothing to do with each other. But by the time we get to second or third season, the A and B plots are always aligned. So let's say the big star, like the episode Brothers, where there's these two brothers and they're playing around, and one brother has the other brother get hurt somehow, and they have to go to some special star base to help save him. So the older brother feels really bad. In that same episode, Lor and Data are brought back to Nooyeon Soong, and then we get their brother troubles, and you know then Soong dies, and it's a whole thing.
01:18:39
Speaker
And I feel like that's what this episode very much lacked was just that kind of cohesion that if we would have had an A plot which I guess are the clues, but like, how far can we go with clues? If we would have a plot, that's not the clues, um but the clues at the end of it. We had an a plot and then the B plot was like mall and lock or vice versa. I think that would have been more successful, but this just felt like a bunch of, like you said, a bunch of cut scenes, a bunch of heart to hearts, a bunch of flashbacks, lots of emotionality. Like everyone's very emotional, but it never got me emotional. I never felt sad, happy, angry, surprised. Absolutely the case. I totally agree.
01:19:17
Speaker
So, great, we agree on a kill. we we We are going to announce the results of our two polls in next week's episode, so we'll know where we stand on the season. um
Social Media and More Content
01:19:28
Speaker
Great. So, Sri, do you want to take a moment to tell the people where they can find you outside of this podcast? Absolutely. You can find me on YouTube. Go ahead and type in at the Sci-Fi Savage, where I do weekly live streams, talking all things Star Trek.
01:19:44
Speaker
And we are at Trek Mary K Pod on social media and trekmarykillpod.com on the web where you can find all of our standings. We'll be back next week with episode six. We're getting, we're in the back half of the season now for Star Trek Discovery's final season. And until next week, TMK out.