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i feel that way about garlic too (with special guest jaz papadopoulos)
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In this very special comeback episode of Friendless, host James Avramenko welcomes back the talented poet and writer, jaz papadopoulos.
jaz shares their rich experiences and profound journeys from studying critical theory to thriving in a queer feminist community, and eventually entering an MFA program. Together, James and jaz delve into the intricate process behind Jaz’s verse novel "i feel that way too" from its organic beginnings to its polished final form.
The conversation shifts to discuss the liberating yet challenging aspects of living less reliant on capitalism, including details about Jaz’s garlic farming endeavours. They explore writing as a tool for both critique and affirmation, discussing influences like Edward Said and the intricate beauty of language. jaz reflects on the journey of incorporating and refining powerful quotes, tackling the complexities of copyright, and navigating the multifaceted nature of activism in a rural setting.
Tune in to hear about:
- jaz's involvement in critical theory and the evolution of their creative writing.
- The supportive role of queer feminist communities.
- The creative journey of writing a verse novel.
- Living sustainably through garlic farming and its implications on identity and activism.
- The significance of language, tone, and literary influences like Edward Said.
- Details about jaz’s new book, upcoming tour, and their latest creative projects.
Follow jaz on Instagram HERE
and read more of their work HERE
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Transcript
Introduction & New Poetry Book
00:00:08
Speaker
Well, hey there, sweet peas. Welcome back, friendless. I'm your host, James Avramenko, and we are kicking off season seven of the podcast. To get this brand new season started, I am joined by returning guest Jazz Papadopoulos. Jazz has a brand
Writing Process & Garlic as Cash Crop
00:00:23
Speaker
new book of poetry out called I Feel That Way Too. We discuss the process of writing the book, the complicated history of travel writing, and the hidden knowledge all farmers have that garlic is in fact a cash crop. All this and so much more, I couldn't have asked for a better kickoff guest for season seven, so lean back, get comfy, set your volume at a reasonable level, and enjoy my interview with Jazz Papadopoulos here on Friendless.
Perceptions of Time with Age
00:00:48
Speaker
So it has been almost a year since you were on the show, um which is mind boggling to me. Yeah, I want to kill you for saying that. I know. I've been having that. oh I've been having that a lot recently, actually, because I do these like, you know, I i journal daily and I also have one of those like five year journals, like where you write like a little line every day. And um so I'm constantly being reminded of like where I was three years ago and just being like, what the fuck wasn't that yesterday? Yeah. yeah And just, it hurts my feelings every day, you know? Yeah. I think about my like grade. Oh God. Like my grade eight math teacher all the time. Cause he was like, do you guys ever wonder why summer vacation feels so much shorter now than it did when you were a kid? And I'm like, yes.
00:01:41
Speaker
And his answer to that was because the more days you live, the smaller percentage of your life each day is. yeah So I'm just like.
00:01:52
Speaker
painfully and mathematically aware that life will continue accelerating. Plus like the the quantum physics thing that I don't understand about how time is literally accelerating. Yes. Oh my God though. I know there's so many, oh my God. There's so many different factors that come into play into like why the day impacts less, you know, yeah but but they're all depressing.
00:02:14
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Um, I think about that all the time about like, yeah, when you're six, you've only had six summers. And then when you're 36, you know, you've had more summers. And so they just, they count for a lot less. And I wish, I wish we could, I wish we could do something about linear time, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But without relying on drugs and alcohol.
Impact of ADHD Medication & Sobriety
00:02:43
Speaker
So, you know, so this is, um, I think this is actually going to end up being probably a pretty central theme to the upcoming season of the show. Um, so why don't we start off there? Cause we were talking a bit about it, um, but before recording and, and I'm always looking for ways to shoehorn, you know, talking about myself into the show, obviously. Right. But that makes sense to me. I would say, okay. I needed that validation. Thank you. Right. yeah um but it also you know there's so in speaking of sort of thoughts about um sobriety and then it's also like living a creative life um and and this idea that there's sort of like a social norm of like the the toxic artist right or the destructive artist and especially maybe the self-destructive artist you know yeah um and i i guess i'm really curious uh your perspective on how has
00:03:41
Speaker
you know, your journey through whatever sobriety you're going through, um how is that affecting your art? And how are you seeing it affect your art? Yeah.
Farming Life & Creativity
00:03:53
Speaker
I mean, I want to backpedal a little bit and just sir like straightforwardly say that while I was writing this book, it was early COVID times. And I had just gotten an ADHD diagnosis and medication right before lockdowns. So I basically spent the first like year, maybe year and a half of COVID like taking
00:04:23
Speaker
ah Adderall or Vyvanse every day sitting in front of a computer and just like manically writing for hours until my spouse came home from work and then realizing that I hadn't eaten anything. And then smoking weed, eating and watching movies all night. And it just like repeated like that every day. ye So I don't know if I can ever write another book.
00:04:53
Speaker
But, you know, there's something ah so that's actually a deeper question that I've been having with myself because, you know, I have ADHD, I take Adderall. And and even though, you know, I'm as of this recording, I'm i'm almost at 11 months sober, you know, I'm still taking a prescription prescription speed. Right. Yeah. know If you want to be crap crass about it, it's like legal meth. Right. Yeah. I almost called it MDMA. I was thinking MDMA every day.
00:05:20
Speaker
I mean, it's what it feels like in the body is that it's just like, oh, thank God. I finally have normal brain, you know, but like, um, but it is this a funny question of like how sober is sober. Um, and what is the impact there? Right. Yeah. But, but so, so with your, uh, with your medication, um,
00:05:40
Speaker
Do you, do you like, do you credit it with, with your writing or do you, or do you, or are are you willing to admit that you are an artist and did it yourself? yeah
00:05:51
Speaker
I mean, I think it's both, and it's also hard to remember what my mental health and brain function was like before COVID because yeah all of my capacities, this is nothing new to say all of my capacities just feel baseline diminished. Yeah.
00:06:09
Speaker
And the way that I have coped with that is that i like after the first year and a half, two years of COVID, I went to farm school because I was like, I just need to be outside and do something with my body because like I hate what it feels like to sit in my brain anymore.
00:06:28
Speaker
And that's still kind of my move is that I basically traded, like I stopped doing my ADHD meds while I was farming. And then I left the city and now I started a garlic farm in interior BC. So I am outside and
Community Knowledge & Stereotypes
00:06:45
Speaker
moving my body a lot more, but it really feels like I don't know how to simultaneously do like computer work and be outdoors and happy.
00:06:59
Speaker
And I think probably the answer will wind up being like writing by hand in a field. Big time. ah Big time. Absolutely. And then just get somebody else to transcribe it, you know? Yeah. yeah that's That's actually... um
00:07:18
Speaker
I've started to suspect that, uh, the sort of like the neurodivergent brain is, is far more aligned with like what we kind of naturally are inclined to be as like kind of a ah based on human instincts, right? sort of The idea of like the hunter gatherer, you know,
00:07:35
Speaker
We focus on things and then we get distracted because we're like, oh, what's that in the trees? You know, but then we can still focus back. And and I do wonder sometimes if like, you know, these sort of artificial crutches of, you know, Adderall, Vyvanse, all vi band so these things are literally just so we can sit in front of computers better because that for sure is the thing that has gone way up since I got medicated. Right. Yeah, I totally I absolutely agree with your perspective on this. I have a friend who calls their ADHD meds like their capitalism pills. o And they're like, I take them when I have to work at my computer. Yes, right. Yeah.
00:08:16
Speaker
or clean my house. They're great for that. well that's just it's that thing of but That's my joke of like, yeah, I take this pill and I can finally clean my room. and and then i you know Then I feel better about myself for an afternoon, you know but like or I finally filed my taxes. Oh my Don't even look at my to-do list.
00:08:37
Speaker
um ah You know, that's actually something I did want to talk about because, you know, we just saw each other recently. I bought five pounds of garlic coffee. you
00:08:48
Speaker
I'm never going to need garlic again. That's not true. You're going to be garlic again. eventually I wouldn't sell you something only once.
00:09:01
Speaker
That's, that's good capitalism right there. That's smart. let's yeah um But what, what led to like, what led to garlic specifically? Was it a kinship to the, to the, to the, to the, it's not a fruit to the vet. It's not a vegetables don't exist. That's what I learned. Um,
00:09:24
Speaker
um I mean, Speaking of capitalism, like it's it's a cash crop. it You make a lot of money on it. It has a high yield and you don't have to work that much compared to other crops. like When I tell people that are farmers that were growing garlic, they're like, oh yeah, smart cash crop. I'm like, yeah, like it was the get rich quick scheme. Wow. Yeah.
00:09:51
Speaker
That's so cool. i love i love i love You know, oh my God, this this just like, I'm going to have such a problem keeping my ADHD thoughts in check ah just to keep like the interview kind of linear here. Because that sends me in such a different direction. But it's this idea of like how You know how people ah have these perspectives of different communities that they're not a part of, right? So if you're like a city folk, you think like all farmers are stupid. And and if you think you're from if you're from the farm, you're like, oh, everybody's just a coastal elite and you're, ah you know, yeah yeah hipbbies whatever the fuck, right? You know, you have these stereotypes of everybody and everybody thinks everyone else is stupider than them. And then you learn about that. It's like it's it's just that they know different things. Yeah. And I always find it's so fascinating when you hear about like that, like
00:10:42
Speaker
that like, that hidden knowledge, right? You know, like, like something, why the fuck would I have ever known garlic versus broccoli versus lettuce, whatever. yeah you know um But that's like an inherent knowledge to that community. And I find that so yeah fascinating. Also, like I fully sobbed on, I think the fourth day of farm school because there's so much math yeah
00:11:07
Speaker
I was good at math. I got like a 97% in pre-cal, but like like doing the math of how many seeds you need to purchase based on like your row feeds and how close each plant is going to be seeded plus 20% loss, I was just crying.
00:11:28
Speaker
like You even just describing in a flyby example made my brain shut down. Yeah. No, I know. I'm just like, I am back in like being a teenager and my father's yelling at me about my math homework.
00:11:48
Speaker
See, my backstory on that is that I literally, I used French to not have to do math in order to graduate high school. Cause I was in French for years. So I just like challenged French somehow in high school and that replaced my math credits. I don't know which like a career, what do they call those? Like the like the guidance counselors. I think the guidance counselor was like, listen James,
00:12:17
Speaker
you're not gonna make it in math. So we're gonna do this for you, you know?
00:12:25
Speaker
Great. Yeah. I support that. You just got to get it through, you know? Yeah. Yeah. You just got to spend a lot of time crying in the guidance counselor's office and don't figure it out, you know? Yeah.
Inspiration & Trauma in Writing
00:12:38
Speaker
Yes. Good. Um, let's circle back to your book though. This is why we're here. This is the actual, the reason for the season here. I really want like, there's, I have so many different questions about it because it's,
00:12:54
Speaker
I don't even know where I want to start because I just find it so... um
00:13:01
Speaker
What's the word I'm looking for? Compelling. Actually, that's a great word for it. That's a great word for it. it's just like There's so many layers to it that I would love to dig into. And I and i know we're not going to have time for. um I think, I guess, a really simple way to start, just as a little entryway for listeners, is could you kind of talk a little bit about the like the inception of the book and what the sort of spark was that that led you to to weaving all these different ah narratives together. Yeah.
00:13:35
Speaker
um
00:13:38
Speaker
So okay, there's like a couple ways to say it. One way is that it was 2016 and I was in my undergrad at U Winnipeg and I was doing like a English critical theory class. And it was when the Jangameshi trial was on the radio and I guess we should have a content warning on this episode that like my book and includes discussions of like sexual assault and the Me Too movements and specifically the Jangameshi trial.
00:14:17
Speaker
um And it was like It was just so triggering. And I wish that there was another word to use because I feel like like triggering has become an overused word that doesn't have meaning anymore. But what it looked like was like, I'm in my critical theory class and people are debating like whether the CBC should fire John Gomeshi and I'm just like dissociating in the corner. or like
00:14:50
Speaker
yelling at one of my male classmates, and then I had to like be spoken to about respectful classroom um action later. And it was like, people in my community, which would have been like 25 year olds, queer, feminist, femme people, like gathering in people's living rooms to just like process survivor trauma. And it was like, I didn't even know the names of the people in this room, but we're just like taking turns being like, do you guys think that that was violence and everyone being like, yes. yeah So it just like ruled my life for a while.
00:15:36
Speaker
um And taking critical theory is what made me start writing poetry and doing creative writing. So that's kind of that version of the seed. And then the second version of the seed is Fast forward a few years and I'm in my first year at the MFA in creative writing and at UBC in Vancouver. And they're like, okay, you have to decide what your thesis is. You're basically going to write a book and you're going to apply to this enormous like $18,000 shirk grant. So like choose something that is, that the grant committee is going to consider interesting and fundable that like you have a unique connection to. And I'm like, okay.
00:16:19
Speaker
I guess my my sellable point is like sexual assault stuff I mean you know that's that's uh putting a positive spin on things I guess you know yeah things Um, you know, one of the things we talked about it in the, in the last interview, when you were still kind of in the process of you were kind of in the editing phase of the book and, and, um, and, you know, it's built inspired by, uh, the sort of, um,
00:17:06
Speaker
poetry like the prose poetry, yeah like ah um the name for it is not coming to me right now. Adultland prose. It's a verse novel, yeah. A verse novel, thank you. um And and you know we had talked about some some of your inspiration behind it. and And when you're tackling that kind of structure, um did you find yourself working from ah sort of a more poetic lens or from the the narrative lens? Like how were you kind of building that out?
00:17:36
Speaker
Yeah, so I didn't, when I was writing it, I didn't intend it to be a verse novel.
Unplanned Writing & Poetic Tone
00:17:43
Speaker
And this is like my style of creative production is it's very unplanned, very like broad and choppy. And I would say that my first drafts of things are almost like journal entries where I'm like writing down in very bland detail, like the step by step things that happened, which is what my journal entries are like. sure Today, my tomatoes were ripe and I ate them with anchovies. Cody likes it too.
00:18:25
Speaker
And then it's like, I will write a couple books just full of information. And then I kind of begin this sifting process where I go through and will identify recurring images and themes and will like highlight every time that I speak in first person. And I just kind of like collect the data and categorize it. It's almost like like doing a taxonomy, I think. And from there, I will start massaging it into a poetic shape.
00:19:02
Speaker
Um, but honestly, until I think, so I initially handed it in as my undergraduate thesis. That is about half the size that it is now. And then I sent it around to publishers. Um, and then when it finally got accepted for publication, they asked me to increase the length and it kind of was morphed into the version that it is now. But even like while I was sending it out to publishers, each poem was individuated and had its own name. And there was a table of contents like you would expect in like a normal poetry collection. um But when I was working on its final form, I just knew that realistically, none of the pages were meant to be separate poems. And I hated that they had titles that made them feel separate. And I just wanted it to feel like a story that you're walking along.
00:20:02
Speaker
Yeah. I love it. I love it it it. There's, there's this incredible, you walk this really beautiful line in the sort of tone of the book where there's like, it's at times both really conversational and really kind of like down to earth, but at the same time too, it feels kind of like a chronicle or it feels very lofty. You know, there's, yeah you, you, you, you jump in between very like kind of plain language while also then like, you know, talking about like etymology and, and history and and jumping around and, um,
00:20:34
Speaker
Was that like, I know it's really hard, you know, when you're talking about your writing or your poetry to like talk about tone and why talk about these kinds of things, but did you find you had an intention behind that or is that just sort of how it flowed out of you?
00:20:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think about tone a lot. And the things that I like about writing are kind of these, oh, I don't know how to talk about this in a way that I actually like, I was gonna say these like higher level craft things that would be like the very last draft things.
00:21:09
Speaker
um I, okay, so I'm gonna get an object to show you that listeners can't see, so sorry. This is like in my favorite podcasts when they're like, okay, describe what you see. yeah So this is my dictionary. Gorgeous. It's really big. It says Collins English dictionary on the front. It's blue. Oh, the page of the front page is written out. So I don't even know. It's from 79. Does it have page numbers? It doesn't, but it's bigger than a Bible I'd say.
00:21:49
Speaker
Yeah. And like, I would have, you know, maybe the third draft of a poem in front of me, and I'll go through it. And I'm very like vibe oriented. And I'm glad that vibes has really gotten into cultural lexicon, because it really works for me. So I'm like holding this poem open. And I'm like, okay, in my body, the vibe is like, broody teen romance.
00:22:18
Speaker
movie that's like maybe gonna be a thriller and it's like the opening sequence where nobody's speaking but there's like weird music playing and it looks really beautiful but you feel uncomfortable. m So I'm thinking of a specific poem that's like the first day of summer camp poem. yeah yep And then I go through it and I will like underline the words that just like don't hit that vibe. And I remember And like, I think one of the lines is like, the men were tall, dark and handsome. I'm like, okay, like that's pedantic. Everybody's like, I can't say tall, dark and handsome. So I like go to the H section in my enormous dictionary and just like write down every word that feels interesting to me. And then I look up all the meanings and then I'm like, can any of these work? And the line became tall, dark and haptic.
00:23:09
Speaker
haptic. that And it's funny, I just read that line yeah ah earlier today and and it sticks out. It becomes like a really like nice little twist, you know a little twist in the line. Yeah. And just for people who don't know, like haptic is a word that refers to like physical touch.
00:23:26
Speaker
So it it gives a bad vibe. v And like, that's kind of how I work the tone. And it's my favorite part of writing is the very last edits, which is a shame because I'm such a procrastinator that half the time I hand things in that are only like on their second draft and I don't get to do those fun edits. sha um But yeah, like working on a a word level, not even like a sentence or a line level, but on a word level is very satisfying to me. I have such a deep like reverence for that attitude because I'm somebody who
00:24:07
Speaker
I'm lucky if I can get a second draft out of some of them, you know? Like like a lot of the times my my writing is so like instinctual that I've just sort of like throw it out and I'm like, yep, cool, next one, you know? um I don't know if it's a volume thing, cause I just, i'm all I'm always writing. So it like, each piece kind of means less, you
Language, Poetry & Visual Art
00:24:28
Speaker
know? It's like summers. There's just so many of them, you know? yeah know But but just like the the precision that it takes and the patience it takes to do that is so impressive. Yeah. And I like like I I really enjoy your writing. And I think that I write like that sometimes if I'm writing for performance, because I know that like verbal delivery is just way different than only textual delivery.
00:24:59
Speaker
um But yeah, when I'm just reading something, I love just like this level of like stupid elegance. I just love it. There's something, there's something so.
00:25:12
Speaker
beautiful to me about like a well crafted poem on the page. And when you can see it, you know, I think of, um you know, someone who comes to mind is is it's not technically poetry, but um ah Joan Didion's novel, um ah played as it lays, um is like,
00:25:32
Speaker
it's so crafted on the page that it's like almost, it's almost ah a piece of visual art in a way, you know? yeah um And I find that that poetry that is that meticulous to be really, you know, it's like they're they're like works of art in in just in and of themselves aesthetically, let alone what then is being said within. And I think that's one of the things I love so much about poetry is that it can work on those levels, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I love that too.
00:26:08
Speaker
I want to try really ham-fistedly to link one of one of the themes of the show to the book, because you know ah you know on on the show, obviously, I talk a lot about the idea of like community and connection and and sort of like fitting in or being outside, you know inside looking in, whatever whatever it might be.
00:26:33
Speaker
um and throughout your book there's it strikes me that there's a few sort of like circles of community and different types of connections you know you've got like you mentioned that there's the summer camp community and there's you know there's there's um you know i don't want to say it's it's the you you know but it's like there's there's like the narrator's friends um who it's not always clear if those are summer camp people or if there are different parts of their life or wherever it might be and and ah and i'm curious um how those thoughts of community first kind of impacted the development of the of the book, but also um how you think your community, wherever you were at the time, how did it impact your writing of the book?
00:27:23
Speaker
oh I recognize it's a really convoluted question. We can kind of parse it out if you like. well
00:27:33
Speaker
The question like ah for me is always like, how literally do I take your question? Or do I just tell you like what I want to say about that? and wherever where Where does the impulse take you? that's that's That's the answer. So the way that I feel like community connects into this book, like everything that you've described is accurate.
00:27:58
Speaker
you know like that there are like There's communities of characters, but I like didn't think about them that much. Um, they're almost like, it's almost like playing with little dolls and like, I dunno, that's like not quite the point for me. Um, the way that I think about community in my book is that I'm really into like,
00:28:23
Speaker
I don't know the right
Collaborative Writing & Connections
00:28:24
Speaker
word for this. I call it like a collage style of writing where like I reference lots of other people's work in the book. Um, and they're all cited because I'm into that. Yeah, whatever. Um, but like,
00:28:44
Speaker
Because I will be reading, and I'm like, oh, like what I just read in this Anne Carson book like opens up so many doors of thought for me. So then I like write based on that, and like her work is inevitably part of it. Or like sometimes I'll even just like lift a line. And I had to remove a bunch of like lifted Anne Carson lines, even though they were sighted. but My publisher was like, you're probably going to get sued.
00:29:11
Speaker
So just me doing last minute rewrites. But like the title, I feel that way too. And the the poem that that's part of. So it's on page 80. The lines are, do you ever feel like violence and desire are so intertwined? You don't know what you want. And then you if you skip a couple stanzas.
00:29:36
Speaker
I feel that way too. That is a quote from another artist named Adriana Disman, who lives in Germany, but performed at a performance art festival in Vancouver years ago, and I like saw the performance and wrote about it for van document magazine and I had written these lines down and they just like stuck with me for forever and it got to a point in the writing of the book when I'm like analyzing like sifting through the data and analyzing what's going on and I'm like trying to draft what I think the narrative arcs are to then place upon the text and like fill in the blank spots. I was like oh like the the crux of all of this is that
00:30:23
Speaker
this experience of violence when you're young or inexperienced in it or whatever is unnameable and that is itself like another violence is not being able to understand or identify what's happened or like find community around it. So this quote, did you ever feel like violence and desire are so closely intertwined that you don't know what you want? I feel that way too.
00:30:51
Speaker
Like that's everything. I was like, that's the answer. Like that's the point of this book is just being able to communicate around it. And when I wrote that poem, I found Adriana Disman on Instagram and I was like, I wrote this poem that uses quotes from you. Like, is this okay?
00:31:11
Speaker
And Adriana was like, yeah, totally. And I just DM them yesterday or today and was like, hey, I don't know if you remember me, but I lifted some of your lines. Can I send you a copy of the book?
00:31:25
Speaker
but yeah And they were they were so gracious. I'm like, yes, please do. Here's my address. um Like, I'm so proud of you. So honored to be part of your work. And I was like, I'm so glad to hear that because my writing is really collaborative and collage style. And I want to include other people's quotes all over it because we're all part of making sense of these concepts together. Yeah. But I ran into a bunch of copyright issues.
00:31:54
Speaker
and Adriana was like, yeah, fuck copyright. Like, this is awesome. Thank you so much. Incredible. Incredible. I mean, fuck copyright is, you know, like, like, it's all because of fucking Mickey Mouse that we none of us can do anything. It's all bullshit. Really? I didn't I don't even I don't know this history.
00:32:15
Speaker
I mean, I don't know all the, i don't know all the let's tangent for two seconds, because this is a weird story, but i don't know I don't know all the details, so I'll probably get most of it wrong. From what I understand, copyright law used to be very different, and then Disney was going to be losing, basically, Mickey Mouse was about to become ah public domain, and so they lobbied to change copyright laws, and it extended like another 20 or 30 years, and they actually just lobbied to change it again,
00:32:44
Speaker
because ah like Steamboat Willie technically should be public domain I think this year or next year or something like that um and yeah it's all about like public domain laws that they've like just fucked everyone and it's just so that Disneyland can keep profiting basically.
00:33:00
Speaker
Man, it is always capitalism. It is literally always capitalism. Always. Always. It has nothing to do with the artist. it that That's always the argument, right? It's like, oh, well, we have to protect the legacy of, you know, what whoever the fuck. And it's like, he's dead. Who gives a shit? yeah ah Yeah. Speaking on that, actually, though.
00:33:22
Speaker
that does spin me into because because building off of you know the idea of like the collage you know and i very much a word that kept on coming to my mind as i read it was like a tapestry you know and and and um the way you intermix but you know these sort of like um what are their their nature elements or like very personal elements within like pop culture you know and sometimes on the same page you're talking about like you know, ah like kind of ah a nature reference to then like Barbie or Who Framed Roger Rabbit or something like that. and And creating that aesthetic of like everything is connected is really what came across for me. And I'm curious if you see ah or or I guess I'm curious, do you see pop culture as
00:34:11
Speaker
um sort of above or below other culture or do you just see it as like all the same playing field? Yeah, I see it as all the same. I think this like everything is connected perspective for me is actually really related to like an ADHD brain. Sure, yeah. um And just being like, oh, that reminds me of this, which reminds me of this, which reminds me of this. And you're just like, okay, like you got to map it all out.
00:34:41
Speaker
um But yeah, like, I think that pop culture is, it's kind of like the art imitates life, imitates art, like it's, it is what we have made. And thus, it represents how we think about things and the stories we've been told about things or the stories we want to tell about things. um Yeah, and I think that it's just really, it's it's actually a really important value to me and this has become more true as time passes and as like I get older and watch cultural waves happen and also as I watch like fucking hellscape fascist genocide land just like come to the front and be somehow considered acceptable in culture like
00:35:40
Speaker
When I teach creative writing classes at the college or at university, it is so important for me to make clear to the young adults that I'm teaching how all of our cultural ideas are like rooted in something else and usually rooted in imperial conquest and like white supremacy and capitalism.
00:36:06
Speaker
um ah Yeah, okay. My brain's just spitting out now. I think it's really important for everyone to always know that nothing is inherently true and builds upon years, decades, and centuries of prior knowledge that become invisible. Yeah.
00:36:24
Speaker
as they become diluted behind the new the new version, the new story. Yeah, 100%. That reminds me of a say. I can't remember who it was, ah but a historian was asked about what what he thinks the ramifications of the French Revolution were on on current society. And he was like, oh, it's far too soon to tell.
00:36:46
Speaker
and I always really liked that because it's the idea of just like, you know, like it goes so much further back than we realize, you know? yeah um That actually leads me directly into, you you started touching on it. um when When I saw you last week, ah you were talking about travel writing.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah. And and this is something I wanted to ask a little further about because it's directly rooted to what you're saying, to what you're just now touching on. And this idea of, you know, travel writing being such a foundational writing style, at least for sort of like modern literature um and what it was all kind of rooted in. And and I guess maybe they the the thought can go in two different directions and I'd like to hear your perspective on both but like the first part being like could you speak more too you know could you could you I guess could you give me a little history lesson on travel writing because I'm so fascinated by it and you have such a good perspective on it the other side of that is as I'm curious about how you see
00:37:43
Speaker
your writing being impacted by it and where you sort of where you where you sit in that sort of paradigm or that that spectrum yeah as a writer yourself.
Travel Writing & Cultural Narratives
00:37:54
Speaker
Yeah. um So I am really influenced by the writings of Edward Said who is a late Palestinian writer and critical theorist. um He actually left Palestine, I think as like a baby or a young person, some i someone checked me during like the 1947 Nakba and came to America and did like a university education in America and became like an academic intellectual.
00:38:33
Speaker
um He has a book called like role of the intellectual that is like I keep just thinking about it and needing to reread it right now because during times of intense material conflict and horror, I'm like, what is the point of being like an academically inclined person? And I want him to guide me on it, but I haven't reread it yet, but maybe someone else will. um i have ah I have a copy of it on my bookshelf that I've always been too intimidated to read it. I've always just been like, oh, fuck.
00:39:11
Speaker
I think that he's a pretty accessible academic writer. You still got to read slow, but like he's not a dick. like He's not Julia Kristeva.
00:39:22
Speaker
That is the nerdiest joke that's ever been made on this show. I'm so proud of you. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. ah God. of But he wrote Orientalism, which is a book and also I think just like a critical theory now and he also wrote the book Culture and Imperialism. And they just kind of go through how like racism is embedded in writing and the way that this is related to travel writing
00:39:57
Speaker
It's all like in the deep history of my brain. I'm going to assume that Saeed writes about this, but maybe this specific information is pulled from somewhere else. I'm going to not list off any more critical theorists because it makes me sound like a dick.
00:40:14
Speaker
um But the idea that like writing and travel writing is like partially rooted in, well, first of all, like the desire to have the written word is a European value,
00:40:32
Speaker
you know, like moving from oral tradition to like written tradition and having this sense of like objective written truth. um was it Which one was it? It was one of the like Plato, Socrates, Aristotle. It was one of those who like bemoaned the invention of writing and was like, this is gonna make us all stupider. I can't believe we're doing this. This is completely evil. We need to just abolish writing and just go back to just an oral tradition.
00:41:01
Speaker
I don't know. I've never heard that. and usually like I'm Greek and usually those guys are just like such a bummer for me because they suck. But that's nice. Probably in the next breath they were like, and by the way, bring your boys and don't worry about slaves. you know Yeah, totally.
00:41:22
Speaker
totally um you're like writing sucks because then anyone could read it i lose honestly all honestly that was probably the argument honestly it's probably like what if women start reading you know um okay But the way that I tell the story of travel writing is it was basically like Europeans and then okay, not I shouldn't like other people did this too. But the way that I'm gonna frame it is like Europeans like traveling to other places, and then like describing what they saw and then like going back home to share it. And it was just always steeped. in like inferiority, like basically the purpose of travel writing as I see it is to like make the home community feel better about themselves. It's like gawking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I know like I know that other places did this too, just like this tradition of like going to another land, writing about it and bringing it back home and then being like, who the fuck are these idiots doing things like this? Um,
00:42:31
Speaker
Marco Polo comes to mind. yeah yeah right you know Yeah, but then it just like really instilled this like intense concept of the other and like us having opinions on them. And then there was like, I just always go back to the Um, was it a whole book series called the lustful Turk? That was like some European yeah writing about Turkish, like Middle Eastern people in this very, like they are like over sexual savages. Like I think how a lot of discourse is currently around black men in America and still around Arab folks in Europe, like
00:43:20
Speaker
My grandmother watches Greek news and it's always just like, I swear to God, made up stories of sexual violence that are like super racialized.
00:43:34
Speaker
And I think like that's how I place this history is like travel writing became orientalist writing such as the lustful Turk. And even if it wasn't that explicit in culture and imperialism, Edward Said goes into like pride and prejudice and how the only non European person in that book is like a maid from Antigua. And the only time they talk about it is to talk about like the sugar cane farms. So it's just like this place where resources are to be extracted.
00:44:04
Speaker
And then how that plays into like how we write and see mainstream headlines about Palestine now.
00:44:14
Speaker
Yeah. And how it like kind of manipulates the, yeah, manipulates the headline, right? Of like where you bring the focus. Yeah. Like we're always trying to draw the boundaries around ourselves and we do that by outlining an other and making it so that like we are absolutely not them.
00:44:34
Speaker
And because of that, we're obviously inherently better, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And okay. Your second question about how like my writing fits into this. do and And do you find you fit into that into that paradigm? Or do you are you kind of mindfully pushing away from it? Because yeah the the thought in my brain was that like in a certain light, all writing sort of fits into the same length. you know We're all writing about somewhere.
00:45:04
Speaker
you know um But ah how mindfully are you trying to slot in versus push away, I guess, is maybe where I'm really looking. Yeah, so like there are some theorists who think that like all writing is like inherently supportive of the imperialist project because to write something is to categorize things and to assume this like firm category is yeah, based in like imperialist and like white supremacist worldview.
00:45:45
Speaker
I also think and I think this is why I like these super nerdy difficult theorists who are like obsessed with like hyper specificity. Because I i also have this opinion that like the more accurately you can speak, the more power there is to describe things. um And I think it's just a tool that you can use for good or for evil. So I think this is why I lean into like lyricism and vibes and experimental poetry and experimental writing because it is using language and hyperspecificity, but also this like vagueness that allows for multiple interpretations and never is claiming to be the one
00:46:36
Speaker
true truth yeah just like a perspective it's like a uh you know it's um it's getting a glimpse of the truth but it's not the truth yeah it's a truth ah yeah right and there's also you know there's something about you know for me it's i see it as like incantations like i see them as like like i see it as like a a mythical thing it's like uh you're using power words you know and it's exactly what you described there's a You know, when you think of like casting a spell, like you're using specific power words, but it's still maintaining a level of ambiguity in order to bring in the spiritual behind it. Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:47:16
Speaker
um I love this. I and I, you know, I.
00:47:23
Speaker
I just got into kind of unpacking the idea of like grammar as kind of reinforcing colonial mindset, you know? and and um And at first I did feel a little bit of resistance to it until I started really reading deeper into it and realizing what but what it was meaning, you know? and And at the same time too, I do still feel like Yeah, there's there's there's something powerful about specificity in language because I think, um you know, words are inherently metaphorical, right? You know, I always like to say, like, where're every word is a lie, right? Because it's like, it's all a representation of something. You know, the word chair isn't a chair, it's just representing a chair, right? And yeah and and so, like, the closer you can get
00:48:12
Speaker
the more the like you say more powerful you can be while still recognizing that it is still all metaphor. It would be better if we could just communicate with grunts, but unfortunately, you know we have we have we have um we have inventory to fill. you know We have shipments to to to track. you know Yeah. The prime minister needs to go on vacation. Oh my God.
00:48:43
Speaker
ah Yeah. And I think grammar is the same. Like it can be used in this evil as this gatekeeping tool. And then you can also recognize that like all languages have grammar. And I was listening to the Ebonics episode of You're Wrong About and how like, I don't know, I'm going to super simplify like they give they gave a bunch of white kids like an AAV quiz and like they all failed because AAV African American vernacular English has a grammar system and it's different than
00:49:22
Speaker
whatever um American or Canadian English, but it's still there. I was in the Philippines in the spring and like Filipino grammar is I can't even try to explain anything about it. You should just watch a YouTube video on it because it is so complicated.
00:49:41
Speaker
ah And like relational and this is a thing that I love is that grammar indicates how words are in relationship. So I think grammar is just like so juicy, and I also think that people are dicks about it. Yes, 100%. One thing that I become really, really, really fascinated by is um the way we translate ancient text. um i'm I'm a massive like ancient history nerd. I just i love myths out of all that shit. and And in the last couple of years especially, there's been tons of retranslations of these these classical texts.
00:50:16
Speaker
with a deeper eye of like, who was it who was doing the translation?
Translating Ancient Texts
00:50:21
Speaker
you know So classic classic translations of the Iliad or of the Odyssey and and how they were translating you know different different words to to to reinforce you know ah misogyny or whatever it might be. yeah and and um And the context of these really specific words in the original manuscripts and how they evoke different emotions, even though you could just read them off as you know anger or whatever, yeah but it's like, it's like It's a specific kind of anger because it's like the type of Athena that was, you know, and it's just, yeah I love that shit so much. You're reading on Carson, right? own a oh thank god yeah um this There was this meme that went around recently that was like,
00:51:05
Speaker
Uh, it's like try explaining to people in a hundred years, the difference between a butt call and a booty, no, a butt call and a booty dial, a butt dial and a booty call. And that's why I don't trust the Bible.
00:51:17
Speaker
like yeah That's it right there. That's it right there. You know, exactly. Exactly. Um, I become really, uh, I love a, what is her name? Um,
00:51:29
Speaker
and ah Natalie Hayes is who I've been reading a lot of as well. She she wrote um the the book that caught my eye of hers is called Pandora's jar. um and it's about how ah the The whole trope of Pandora's box is a mistranslation from like the 1600s that in the ancient world, it was always known that it was a jar that she held. um But then in like the 1700s, they they like mistranslated his box and then it became a better image. you know and um and And so to this day, it's like...
00:52:03
Speaker
if you say Panda is Right, which is the proper thing. you know that That's just like the first story of the whole, but but she's got a whole series of books and they're fucking incredible. Thank you. Highly, highly recommend.
00:52:20
Speaker
i'm watching i'm I'm just watching the time and I wanna get- Yeah, we're a disaster.
00:52:26
Speaker
No, this is the intention. This is why we podcast. Now we may have no listeners at this point, but that's fine. I'm having a laugh and that's, you know what? I, I, I make art for myself and I make, and as long as I'm having fun, as long as you're having fun, but somebody you'll be here, you know? well yeah james
00:52:47
Speaker
um Something I've been thinking a lot about, i'm I'm going to kind of lead into like the wrap up the interview part.
Hope, Community & Change
00:52:54
Speaker
um um Something I've been thinking a lot about, especially with, you know, the state of the world, the state of news, the state of just everything is in a moment of what feels like imminent collapse. And um as an artist, like you were talking about, sometimes you question, like, where where do I stand? What's the point?
00:53:19
Speaker
um and So a theme I've been thinking a lot about is this idea of of hope and like, what is it, what is hope and what am I hopeful for? um and And I think that's going to be something I'm continually teasing out this season. And and I'm curious to you, no matter how big, no matter how small, what is something that's giving you hope these days?
00:53:48
Speaker
I guess.
00:53:51
Speaker
I guess it's my garlic farm. Yeah. That's a beautiful answer. That's a beautiful answer. Your your garlic gives me hope.
00:54:03
Speaker
Yeah. Like, you know, there's like four of us who are friends and it's like based out of my partner and their high school best friend. And then me, my partner's partner and my new best friend.
00:54:21
Speaker
My partner's best friend's partner. God, I love polyamory. Oh my God, we're not dating each other. I'm just trying. We're friend partner groups. We're double dating. It's that is that term, partner. OK, OK, yeah. I use pal. that's i use I use pal to differentiate. If you ever hear me describe, if I ever say my pal, I'm sleeping with that person. but
00:54:47
Speaker
ah
00:54:51
Speaker
But yeah, we're just like chilling on the land. And the reason, you know, I was like, we picked garlic because it's a cash crop. The reason we picked the cash crop was because we were trying to put water and electricity on the land. Fuck yeah. And we did. Yeah. And maybe one day people will live there if the fires don't burn it down.
00:55:14
Speaker
But our well is really good and probably won't run out of water even when the Okanagan syndrome. So that's good. That's incredible. That's incredible. I'm I you know I was I was saying to you and Cody both the other day and I want to reiterate it again like I I.
00:55:32
Speaker
It is that funny feeling of, you know, watching someone who, you know, I don't necessarily know all that well, but like, you know, we have a connection and seeing you both go out there and do this incredible kind of pivot to your life and to be thriving and and and succeeding. It's like, I feel like a pride, you know? like maybe it's a Maybe it's a type of comparison. I don't know. it's like ah there's just like There's such a joy in seeing other people's success and seeing their joy. you know And i I could not be more impressed with what you're doing. um This book is incredible. Your farm is incredible. like You're doing... you know um And I think this is kind of part of why I'm trying to look at... like Hope isn't about like
00:56:18
Speaker
everything's gonna get sorted out. It's like, what are you holding on to, you know? Because I think sometimes we can get bogged down in like, well, what can an individual do to the world? And it's like, well, not very much. But if you really think about like, you you existing causes the world to exist. So it's like,
00:56:41
Speaker
What are you doing to, to change your world? You know, and it really strikes me that you are doing some really powerful things. So I think, I think it's really exciting. I appreciate that James. I, um, something that's plagued me because I am living rurally in a conservative place is like, it feels really hard to tap into activism. Like, you know, being like, how am I supporting Palestine?
00:57:07
Speaker
when I live in this rural conservative place. Like i I feel like my ability to do that is way less than it felt living in a bigger city. Sure. um But I just keep reminding myself that like, I live in a way that is really um like not as reliant on capitalism, as many people. And I live in this way that really focuses on like collaborative relationship in a way that I think is radical and like antithetical to white supremacy and empire. um And like I'm really grateful for my friends here that are like indigenous and non-white and really connected to their histories and traditions. And I'm also grateful for my own family and community that is
00:58:05
Speaker
connected to, you know, not all white supremacy things. um
00:58:14
Speaker
But yeah, every I just keep reminding myself like, oh, yeah, I don't actually participate in capitalism that much in terms of like, using credit cards and stuff. And that is also meaningful and cool. yes every bit counts everything is you know not not everybody's expected to do everything right like it's that's that's community right there is that we band together and i can do my part and you do your part and you know and collectively hopefully we get somewhere better you know yeah um i don't have any other questions for you today but i just you know i really do want to reiterate uh this book is
00:58:57
Speaker
Incredible. And I'm just, I'm so impressed for this to be a debut collection is stunning. Um, and, um, I guess, uh, you're about to go on a tour.
Upcoming Book Tour
00:59:11
Speaker
You're going to be plugging this on the road. So do you want to talk a little bit about that? So if if listeners, um, want to come out and meet you and buy a copy in person, where, where can they find you? Yeah. Uh, I am going on tour. It's true.
00:59:26
Speaker
I, what's it gonna be like? I'm so curious. Okay. The book launch, the debut launch is September 12 in Vancouver at 6.30pm at Cross and Crows on the drive. I'm since- One of the best bookstores in the city. Hell yeah. Yeah. I'm sincerely worried about the capacity.
00:59:52
Speaker
It is little. it's a It is a little guy. But still, let's pitch it. um I don't know what the after party is going to be. If anyone wants to pitch an after party, send it to James. And if it's good, James will send it to me. absolutely um And then I'm going to mess up some of these dates. But on September 19th, I'm at McNally Robinson in Regina on October 4th.
01:00:22
Speaker
Question mark, I'm at McNally in Saskatoon. and so No, on October 18th, I'm reading at the Festival of Authors in Victoria on the island. And October 22nd, I'm in Winnipeg at McNally. And then I think that later that week, we're gonna do like a more experimental reading at Platform Arts Center. And then on October 10th, just to backtrack, I'm reading in Vernon.
01:00:51
Speaker
Where I live. ah Amazing. So you're really doing a little ping pong. That's amazing. Yeah, I am. I'm blessed with travel benefits until November, which is why I'm doing a tour. Cause it's going to be really cheap for me. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. Um, and also like I'll read at other places, I would love to be going to Toronto or the East coast or, um, Alberta. So if anyone out there.
01:01:20
Speaker
like runs a reading series or a festival or something, I would love to hear from you. 100%. I'll make sure all that information is in the show notes. So listeners, ah please be sure to, yeah, if you're in one of those towns on one of those days, go check this out. um Yeah, I know two copies. I have a copy on my on my iPad and ah and a physical copy because I'd pre-ordered it. so but Yeah, you're number one.
01:01:47
Speaker
um I'm doing my part, you know? But now it's the listener's turn, you know, go buy a copy. I feel that way too. It's incredible. Jazz, you're amazing. Thank you so much for taking some time to chat with me again. and It's so nice to have you back on the show. And, uh, yeah, I just, I could not be more excited to see where you go with this
Future Writing Projects
01:02:09
Speaker
next, you know? Um, ah do you have another book, you know, kind of ready to rock or where where are you at with that?
01:02:17
Speaker
Hell no, I've been applying for, I've been applying for a Canada Council grant for years to write like a queer sex work farming book, but everybody must be doing it. And then I started, recently I started drafting notes about, I'm like, this is going to be a book ah about but administrating my queer small town group chat.
01:02:46
Speaker
love
01:02:50
Speaker
Uh, we'll see. I love it. I love it. That's the start. That's, you've got one, you've got half the elevator pitch. Now we need it. Now we need a problem, right? You know, yeah what what's their problem, right? It's full of problems.
01:03:07
Speaker
I love it. I love it. Um, yeah, I, I can't think of a good sign off here, but, uh, just thank you. You're incredible. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I i feel that way too.
01:03:19
Speaker
Ah, there it is.
01:03:32
Speaker
And that's it. Thank you so much to jazz for coming back on the show. What a pleasure it was to catch up with them. If you want a copy of their brand new book, I feel that way too. There are links to that in the show notes. And if you're in Vancouver on the week, this episode comes out September 12th, they're doing a reading at one of the best bookstores in the city cross and crows. All the information you're going to need for that is in the show notes as well.
01:03:56
Speaker
And while you're poking around there, if you wanna support the show, please feel free to click on the links to sign up for the friendless sub-stack newsletter. I'm just about to relaunch with some brand new content, all kinds of goodies there. It's free, so what are you waiting for? Sign up today. But that's it for me this week, so let's just wrap things up here. Thank you so much for listening, and I hope to catch you back here next week for another brand new episode. But guess what? I'm not gonna worry about that right now, and neither should you, because that is then, and this is now. So for now, I'll just say I love you.
01:04:26
Speaker
And I hope you have a great week. Fun and safety, sweeties.