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You Don't Need to Drown (with special guest Brett Cassidy)
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In this episode of Friendless, host James Avramenko welcomes Brett Cassidy, a singer, songwriter, and producer. The two reconnect after years of following each other's careers online and share a deep conversation on friendship, community, and music. Brett discusses the evolution of his music career, his love for folk and psychedelic music, and the inspiration behind his latest EP. The conversation touches on the importance of vulnerability, maintaining connections, and the value of second chances. They also delve into how art and community play pivotal roles in their lives, providing hope and purpose amid a challenging world. Join them for an insightful dialogue that explores the depths of human connection and artistic expression.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:08
Speaker
Well, hey there, sweet peas. Welcome back Friendless. I'm your host, James Avramenko, and this week I'm catching up with Brett Cassidy. Brett is a singer, songwriter, producer, and all around genuinely great human being who I knew back in Calgary, and we had an absolutely delightful conversation.
Exploring Art and Relationships
00:00:25
Speaker
We discuss the power of authentic vulnerability in both art and relationships, the healing potential of giving second chances, but maybe not third, attending the church of rock and roll, and the importance of letting yourself hope.
00:00:38
Speaker
So now it's time to lean back, get comfy, set your volume at a reasonable level, and enjoy my interview with Brett Cassidy here on Friendless.
00:00:48
Speaker
This week on Friendless, I am wel back welcoming to the show someone who I met incredibly randomly years ago and have only had the job opportunity to kind of ah watch his career just sort of like flourish and progress just through the internet. he is ah He's a singer, a songwriter, he's a producer, and he is an actual nice guy, not one of those internet nice guys, the one and only Brett Cassidy.
00:01:14
Speaker
How are you today? Real good. Thank you so much for having me here. Yeah, it's my pleasure. i was ah you know We've been trying to get you we've been trying to kind of make this work for months now, and it's super exciting that that we finally found a ah mutual time to record.
Social Media Reflections
00:01:29
Speaker
you know yeah And I've been waiting even longer to but to be asked to join. so Well, that's just it, right? you know ah Yeah, we were talking just before recording. you know you've been you've been kind of watching You've been watching me whittle down the the Facebook list, right?
00:01:43
Speaker
um And that that kind of piece of the show has definitely been more dormant than usual. you know... like i because you know We reconnected, funny enough, through TikTok.
00:01:54
Speaker
i don't i I don't know who if it was you saw my video or I saw your video and one of us messaged the other. And so it wasn't even a Facebook thing that ended up actually setting the real domino effect off, you know? Yeah, we've ah we've kept ah ah kept up to date with the social trends. No no more Facebook. We've moved on to TikTok.
00:02:13
Speaker
but That's just it. It's it's dead. Fuck though, man. You know, i i had a real... come to Jesus moment the other day where I i was realizing when I started this show, but I was already so deeply overwhelmed by the the thought that I had been on Facebook for, I think at the time it was like a little over a decade. It was like, you know, something, 12 years, something like that.
00:02:35
Speaker
And now seven, eight years later, yeah I'm pushing, having been on that platform for somewhere in the range of 20 years. um And that just, that really does my head in. Cause now i've I've had Facebook active longer than not only all of grade school, but all of, like, my university plus change, you know? And and that really... yeah Yeah, time... Linear time is really a motherfucker, you know?
00:03:03
Speaker
It's always strange to get a hit with those, like, memories from 16 years ago. ah Like, who who is that person that I'm looking at?
00:03:13
Speaker
100%. one hundred percent i feel like... um I feel like there's no one who's a bigger stranger to me than who I was online ah couple of years ago, let alone. Yeah. You look back 15 years. That's a stranger. That is a different human being that I have no connection to whatsoever.
00:03:32
Speaker
So I want to really talk but mostly. I want to talk about your, your, your music career, but I think to kind of get us there, we have to double back
Transition to Solo Music
00:03:41
Speaker
a little bit. So I think for listeners who aren't necessarily familiar with you and and the work you do, um,
00:03:47
Speaker
I'll put to you a very, a very blunt question of who the hell are you? Yeah. um That's a, it's a big, big question. ah So who I am musically, um I recently only over the last few years, I've been making and releasing music under my own name ah coming from like a decade of always being guy in band or like writing songs as a, as a collaborative,
00:04:17
Speaker
experience and putting them out under various band names. And then during the pandemic, when we were all trapped in isolation by ourselves and I was very sad and had an acoustic guitar, kind of went back to my roots and love of folk and country music and wrote a bunch of songs with the idea that I would be able to play and record them myself.
00:04:41
Speaker
And in that time, I was also getting really into music production and started learning that all all that ah world of things, which took quite a bit of time. And then finally last year i was able to put out my first EP, which is really a ah collection of all of the sounds that inspire
Musical Inspirations and Experimentation
00:05:02
Speaker
me. First and foremost is like folk music has been my love for my whole life.
00:05:08
Speaker
In junior high, when everyone else was listening to My Chemical Romance, I was in the back of the classroom listening to John Denver. Fuck yeah. and Yeah. ah And I've been kind of on the the reverse path. I always see there's like a punk to country pipeline. And I'm like, now, after turning 30, I'm like, hey, have you guys heard of Joy Division? People are like, yes.
00:05:33
Speaker
Yes, Brett, we've heard of Joy Division. So I'm on the like country to punk pipeline somewhere in the middle there. And my other deep love is for psychedelic music. So I try to really meat those, the folk and the psych somewhere in a weird mishmash in the middle.
00:05:52
Speaker
I love it. I love it. You know, it it I love hearing that description of it, especially being familiar with your music and especially that kind of, i don't know if you would call it sort of like the lead single of the EP or not, but it was the first song you released of that that batch, of Friendship. And there's there's like a yodel in it, you know? And at the same time too, there is this like kind of experimental, very expansive, ah is it is it is it banjo that you're playing on that or is it just guitar?
00:06:18
Speaker
Yeah, there's ah the like main instrument is guitar, but there is some some banjo kind of throughout it. And then a bunch of layers of synthesizers and yeah, it's a wacky stuff. It does bring that, you know, yeah I think it's one of the things that I personally find so magic about what's happening right now with country and folk in general is that um the the sort of boundaries that have been so traditionally rigid um are really breaking down and it's allowing for a lot more experimentation and a lot more, there's some really exciting work being done.
00:06:52
Speaker
Are you familiar with like Nick Shoulders and Farrell? Those are two of my absolute favorite artists. Okay, same, same, yeah. save yeah And they ah they you were talking about the idea of like the punk to country pipeline, you know, and I feel like they're so they're like the the torchbearers of that movement, you know? Totally, yeah. and And your music very much feels like it falls in line with that, ah ah which is...
00:07:15
Speaker
A compliment, but you know? Appreciate it Yeah, they're definitely huge inspirations. ah Yeah, and I love seeing, like, all the cowboys with... You can tell they used to have plugs in their ears, and now...
00:07:29
Speaker
and Pull them out, but they still have the, like, stretch lobes. But now they wear a cowboy hat, but still just covered in tattoos. and Yeah, yeah. It's the best. It's great. and It's bringing back. It's almost like it's bringing back what tattoos used to used to represent, you know? Yeah. Like, tattoos used to be scary, and they're they're kind of not anymore, right? and We're bringing back the make tattoos scary again, right? Absolutely.
00:07:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's got to, you got to look at someone covered in tattoos and be like, Is that a dodgy character? Usually they're not, though. They're usually the kindest people. 100%. Yeah. yeah um ah ah so So continuing on that, and talk i want to talk a little bit more about the sort of the the the origins of your music, because that feels like very much when we initially connected.
The Ashley Hundred and Band Dynamics
00:08:15
Speaker
um um We could tell the story about how we met, but it but I think it in parallel with that was the band that you were in when we met, which was ah the Ashley Hundren.
00:08:25
Speaker
Yeah. um um And correct me if i'm wrong, there was a connection to the name of that band to The Revenant, right? Which is the movie set that we met on. That is correct, yeah. And that band ah is still active. We're still at it.
00:08:39
Speaker
We've been going on ah more than i more than a decade now, which is wild to think about. ah We're working on a new album right now, which is really fun. Yeah, but ah the the Ashley Hundred, the name...
00:08:54
Speaker
which I will insert here that I thought of the name before the Revenant movie. 100%. Yeah. yeah yeah you When we met on set, you were already in the band, right? So it was like, it was already done and dusted, right? You know? Yeah. yeah So that, the Ashley hundred came from ah William Ashley, who put together the group that inspired,
00:09:17
Speaker
the revenant he was looking for a hundred men to explore the rocky mountains basically and when we started as a band we were really about like exploration sonically and we we live near the mountains in calgary and we're really into like exploring nature in that way so it felt appropriate to have a name that reflected that uh and then it's kind of one of those band names are so weird because it's like 12 years later, it's hard to associate the same meaning with the name that that we started with, but it's kind of like, this is what
00:09:57
Speaker
the name is now and yeah and it works and that's that's what we are. So yeah, it was really funny when when the opportunity came up to to be an extra in The Revenant and sometimes ah manifestation works in strange ways. Right, right.
00:10:14
Speaker
You technically became another one of the other Ashley Hundrains. Yeah, exactly. You know, that that's an interesting idea that you're raising though about about like the naming of things, right? And that the way that names...
00:10:27
Speaker
kind of anchor you to specific places in your life and and think often about the idea of like why do people give such like violent and vitriolic pushback to people taking ownership of their names or renaming themselves or whatever it might be and and and um i i'd be curious about your take on the idea of like why couldn't a band just rename themselves again?
00:10:52
Speaker
Right. Because it does sort of evoke, uh, an era. Um, and, and what is the, what is this like social more or most of like why we can't just rename ourselves? Cause we're in a different period.
00:11:05
Speaker
And yeah, I feel like a lot of bands do do that, especially if they have like some member changes and things, uh,
00:11:15
Speaker
I think the the reason why, I know the reason why we haven't is because it's just like, it just feels like this is what our band is. And like, if maybe if we were trying to entirely reinvent our sound or something, or like swap some folks out, ah which I hope never happens.
00:11:35
Speaker
I want to be in this band until we all just keel over on stage or something. um
00:11:43
Speaker
It also having the name that I like, I don't know if any of us feel super attached to anymore. It just shows like, is the name really important or is the name just the thing that people use to refer? Like I'm never upset when people don't remember my name.
00:12:00
Speaker
If we've, if we've met and had a conversation and I'm like, a name is just what you yell at someone to get their attention. Yeah. For me anyways, that's what it is. So like if I hang out with someone and they don't remember my name, I don't care at all. As long as they remember like,
00:12:16
Speaker
that's that person that we connected about this topic. Yeah. it's it's yeah this just That's such an so interesting point, too, because the idea of, like, I'm i'm somebody who has historically been atrocious with names.
00:12:32
Speaker
um Faces, no no problem. you know if i've I have that experience that you're describing where i I'll have met somebody and I could point out their face and remember it a decade later. I'd be like, oh, we talked at some point. you know ah What your name is?
00:12:47
Speaker
Gun to my head. No idea. right yeah and And internally, yeah I know that doesn't, there's no intended, intended you know, harm, right?
00:12:59
Speaker
But at the same time too, as you said, like a name is the sound we've all agreed on to make to so designate you, right? and To talk shit behind their back.
00:13:11
Speaker
Just need to know someone's name so I can talk mad shit about them.
00:13:17
Speaker
It has nothing. that A name actually has nothing to do with you. A name has everything to do with so I can gossip about you. Exactly. But it is. It's just such a funny when you break it down like that, you realize what a silly thing it is. Right. Like it's it's kind of goofy that we care so much about these things.
00:13:33
Speaker
Right. Because absolutely. They're just little grunts. You know, it's like I'm getting mad about what type of grunt you make at me. ah I feel like that kind of leads me into one of the first kind of tentpole questions of the show with this question of friendship and connection. and And, you know, your song Friendship talks deeply about this, about what it kind of means to be a friend and how to connect. and and And I'm really curious at a baseline level that the sort of initial question is in your experience, what does it mean to be a friend?
Community and Friendship Values
00:14:08
Speaker
ah yeah I think I'm a person who uses the word friend a lot more loosely than lot of people. Like some people are very like my friends are like the core humans in my life.
00:14:22
Speaker
And then assign more like acquaintance and ah coworker to yeah to others. But for me, it's just like, we are all, anyone that I care about on any level to me is a friend.
00:14:39
Speaker
And like, I obviously have like my, my core people in my life that, that are always there for, for good times and bad times and like a nice core community. um But like being ah member of a music community where I'm out at shows all the time and, and playing attending, there are so many people around that I would never just call them up and be like, Hey, you want to,
00:15:08
Speaker
go for a walk, go for coffee, have a one-on-one hangout. But I still consider them my friend because I go out and they're like a part of this community that we're all in and they're familiar faces and i and I care about them and I admire and respect them.
00:15:24
Speaker
So I consider all those people friends too. Yeah. So for me, it's literally anyone that I care about, which is yeah very broad and it's a lot of people.
00:15:37
Speaker
I mean, I think that's gorgeous and it and it feels, um
00:15:43
Speaker
what's the word I'm looking for? It feels like a really generous ah way to show up in the world, to to give everybody that, right? um i think I think I've probably made a lot of excuses in my day of why I don't need to to offer that kind of empathy.
00:15:58
Speaker
um you know or why I can't or whatever whatever excuse I come up with. right you know ah When it comes to sort of like, you know because you mentioned the idea of like, you've got that sort of like the art community, the music community, and that's something music I think is one of the really magic examples of of building a community in that way. And I want to talk more about community in a moment, but but but sort of keeping on the idea of like the individual, the one-on-one, right? um When you think about
00:16:31
Speaker
um someone in your life who's like really maintained a strong bond with you, um um what are the traits that you notice ah that really resonate with you? like like Like the way someone gives their connection to you? what are What are some of those kind of traits that you really, really treasure? Hmm. The people that I am.
00:16:56
Speaker
closest with. um I'm the worst person ever at reaching out to folks. i I get very caught up just in my own little world and I I love spending time with people, but I'm also equally content just hiding away in this room, which is my bedroom and studio and home office. And I can lock myself in here for a week and not talk to anybody and be happy about it.
00:17:25
Speaker
But the people that I've really maintained connections with over the years are the ones that know that about me and are always like checking in or Like they they check in when they haven't heard from me for a while or are very comfortable reaching out when they need some help um or just want to have a quick little hangout.
00:17:48
Speaker
ah And theres there's some people that like I'll go two, three years without having any contact with and then you can get together and it's the exact same as it ever was.
00:18:01
Speaker
ah that's i think those are the the most special connections. ah that That's something I think a lot about is this idea of like, um when I use a word like consistency, um I was just talking about this with a friend the other day, but when I use a word like consistency, sometimes that gets interpreted as like meaning more often.
00:18:23
Speaker
right like oh it means that you have to always be showing up and it's like no no no consistency c just means whatever you can but doing that consistently consistently so like if you can only do one hang a year that's great i'll see you next year but let's try and keep it level right yeah um um and it's like yeah because i'm in the same boat of like i i'll always take quality over quantity um and yeah if your capacity is we talk once every decade then I hope you have a great rest of the 20s, you know?
00:18:56
Speaker
Totally. ah But do you ah do you ever find yourself like... Because i like I'm in a very similar boat where I i can like lose days. to my yeah i'm in ah I'm in a similar space where it's like my I work from the same off the same desk that I write at and my living room is the same room and all that kind of thing, right? And and um do you find yourself...
00:19:22
Speaker
i don't want to so I don't want to use the word regretting it because I don't think, yeah I just don't like leaning into that element of it. But like, is there is there a piece of how you show up for friends that that you are trying to adjust to sort of reflect what you like from how your friends show up?
00:19:39
Speaker
I think one of those things is like the the reaching out side of things. Because they there's, I'd say, three people in particular in my life that are always reaching out to me and I appreciate it so much and I am rarely reciprocating that.
00:20:00
Speaker
Like I'm always so down to chat when they text me or call me, but I'm rarely the one that is initiating that conversation and knowing how much I appreciate it when it when it happens. I would definitely like to be the one to to strike up the convo. And even just saying that out loud is like a really nice reminder that i I should be doing that more often. Yeah.
00:20:25
Speaker
i mean, I think that's what I, I think that's a piece of what I'm driving at with, with, with the whole reframe of the show in general is that I, I think I'm trying to find more like actionable things that like, that very much that I can do. Right. And, and like you just said, you know, hearing it said aloud is so different from thinking it, which is know then a whole, a whole nother layer. Like yeah I think awareness is such a vital step because you can't change anything you're not aware of.
00:20:49
Speaker
Right. And, yeah and, and so I think, yeah, yeah. Forgive me if I, it sounds like I'm drilling you. I'm not meaning to, right. i'm not Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I guess it's just nice to think like, you know, if they stopped reaching out, I would,
00:21:04
Speaker
miss that connection a lot. Yeah. And then if I just continued, I love being trapped in my little bubble for a few days at a time, but then have that call or that hangout and I'm just like, so reinvigorated.
00:21:18
Speaker
Exactly. And if that disappeared, then I would start to feel real sad in this room, I think. yeah Big time. Well, you can't, you know, it's that thing I've always thought about, like, um when I was, when I was so much, when I was younger, i used to always think I wanted my art to be my job, right? i always wanted to just, like, I would just spend all day writing poetry, and that would be my whole life. And and the older I, you know, as the years have gone on, I've realized that that would make such boring art, you know? Like, if all I was doing was just making art,
00:21:54
Speaker
I would have nothing to say really quickly. you know ah You have to be out living. You have to be getting new experiences. You have to be meeting people and and just like trying stuff. So you have new stories to tell in in the artistic reframe, right?
00:22:08
Speaker
Yes. ah So yeah, that that that idea of like sometimes being forced. My therapist often does this thing where he talks about... like He's like, you know, sometimes you don't want to brush your teeth, but you do it anyway, you know? And sometimes you don't want to see friends, but you do it anyway, because that's a piece of your, like...
00:22:30
Speaker
internal value, you know, ah those are your values is to be connected. So it's like, you know, i it I've used the excuse so often, especially recently of like my social battery being low.
00:22:41
Speaker
um And so I just like give myself a pass to just stay in and do nothing again. Right. And and and that ends up being such a drain. Right.
00:22:51
Speaker
ah So, you know, kind of forcing yourself out sometimes is is is is a benefit. Right. Yeah, it can. It's like the there's always the like introvert extrovert thing. And like I'm right in the middle. So I never know which way lean. And I do find like sometimes ah staying in is the thing that will recharge me.
00:23:16
Speaker
But oftentimes it is like. ah meaningful interaction. and think finding like the interactions that you can, if your social battery is low, you know, going out to a noisy, busy bar with a bunch of people, not going to help yeah yeah at all, but going for, ah I've been trying to do more like coffee hangouts lately, yeah especially in those times where I feel like I don't have a lot to give.
00:23:44
Speaker
Because it's you just get real wired on caffeine. It's never more than like an hour. Yeah. But just two people just drinking way too much coffee and yapping for an hour yeah is a really great way to recharge.
00:23:57
Speaker
Oh, ah never. No one should ever underestimate the power of the app. You know, like that's.
00:24:05
Speaker
ah I'm curious, you know, this is this is sort of like. the the the shadow side of the one-on-one connections. And it's this idea of, you know, something that I've been thinking a lot about recently is processing friend breakups, you know, and it's something that we don't often...
00:24:25
Speaker
really discuss all that openly and all that publicly. But it is something that pretty much everybody has experienced in one capacity or another in the same way that pretty much everybody's experienced a breakup in one capacity or another. you know um And we have all this, you know we have centuries of media discussing the the tragedy of lost love, but we have far less discussion of lost friendship. you know um And I'm curious, you know, obviously you don't have to give names or details or anything, but ah but i'm I'm really curious, you know, when when the sort of idea of a friendship breakup is mentioned, is there an experience that comes
Second Chances and Relationship Insights
00:25:05
Speaker
to mind for you? And and how did you go about kind of processing through that and and and healing yourself for it?
00:25:13
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say there's, I mean, a lot of the ones that have experienced have just been the like drifting apart ah where people, people's lives change and I'm such a different person than I was. i used to be like kind of bro-y when I was like 18, 19, I was like a gym bro. Uh, so loved working out and my connections that I had were like the guys at the gym. And then when that became less of my life and I gave myself more to art, I just like naturally drifted from those folks.
00:25:50
Speaker
Uh, But like since that time, ah ah feel like the the friendship breakups that I've had have come back around, especially in the last like two years. I've had some really meaningful reconnections with with people, um which has been like such a big lesson in giving second chances.
00:26:16
Speaker
I think almost everyone does deserve at least a second chance third, maybe not as much. Um, but with the exception of like unforgivable atrocious acts, I really do feel like people deserve to be given a second chance. And I've experienced this a few times.
00:26:36
Speaker
Uh, and every time it's been like one of the most valuable exercises. And now I have these friends back that I, uh, deeply care about um that we're just going through ah difficult time in their life and took it out in ways that they regret and we all regret.
00:26:59
Speaker
And sometimes people just need a little time to to work on their shit. And if people show me and these people that have shown me that they have put in the the time and energy and effort to better themselves as so as a human and friend, I will always open my arms back up.
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah. and i And I always will. I think that's beautiful. And, you know, you touched on a couple of really key points that I think about often is is is actions, right? You know, actions above words and actions, you know, you know, behavior takes time.
00:27:36
Speaker
Right. And so, you know, just having that patience to to not I know in in in my past, I've often been so. rushed to solve things, right? and And have an answer as quickly as possible, right? And and to not be able to kind of tolerate that like uncertainty and and to not be able to tolerate that like really uncomfortable feeling of like, well, it's going to take the time it takes. And so I better just sit back and do my thing, right? And and and when you learn to tolerate that and just like give it space to breathe and let people work their shit out and then come back when you're ready, right?
00:28:14
Speaker
um I think that's wonderful. I'm really glad to hear that you're experiencing that. you know ah It also makes me think that like friendships in a way can almost be... like i don't want to call them practice runs, but it's like...
00:28:29
Speaker
because they're so we're sort of socialized to see them as a different type of intimacy, it gives us a chance to try um almost like alternative connective practices than we normally would with like romantic connections, you know? um And it almost gives us a little bit more space to to like experiment with how we connect, right?
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah, because we're not putting so much pressure on one individual, ah za which i I think is one of the biggest inherent problems with romantic relationships to begin with. And that's something, i mean, what I would say the first healthy relationship of my life right now.
00:29:10
Speaker
And I think a lot of the reason why it's so healthy is because we're not putting all of our needs into one human.
00:29:21
Speaker
Yeah. know Yeah. Well, isn't it the just, isn't that the truth of like when we're conditioned to believe that one person will hold ah all the answers. And then when that person turns out to be a human being you know and the humans are inherently flawed and imperfect and will fuck up and will disappoint you you know suddenly we we're we're told oh now that person must be a villain because they proved themselves to be a human being right you know and like how unhealthy is that right yeah yeah and you need the the space to to be your own self too
00:30:03
Speaker
ah So what inspired you to start this project and podcast in the beginning when you were like going friend by friend on Facebook? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love that question. Thank you. It's, yeah it's, it's, um ah you know, I've, in a way I've talked about it a bit on the show in that, like, it really did start as a joke, you know, like it was like, I just wanted to start a podcast and I, and I didn't know,
00:30:30
Speaker
don't i and i still don't know famous people so i couldn't do like a interview show with celebrities to like get views and and uh at the same time too i fucking hate facebook you know and so i was like what a good marriage to like get to talk to people um it it doubles back to what we're talking about about like i'm the same way of like i'm a really bad reach outer you know and uh and so it was like a bit of a cheat code for me in a way to like get to talk to all the people I wanted to talk to over the years but never had an excuse to you know and mean so I would have this this reason of like hey let's let's talk for an hour you know and and um um but over the years the what's maintained my engagement with it is because the show like kind of morphed itself into this like um
00:31:24
Speaker
I had a friend once describe it as freelance anthropology work, you know, of like it's essentially this like, ah or or maybe it was sociology. I can't remember the term she used, but you know, it's, it's, it's become this like this inadvertent study of connection and friendship and, and, and how we connect to each other and, and why we maintain connections, you know?
00:31:49
Speaker
um And I am somebody who has, really gone up and down with how connect and how I maintain connections, you know? and and And so to sort of always have this show in the back burner, you know, I'm not always consistently producing, I'm not always consistently doing it, but it's always, you know, it's been in my life now, it's for in some capacity for seven years. and And it's always been something I can come back to, to, yeah, rebuild connections,
00:32:21
Speaker
build new connections, meet new people, hear old, hear new stories from old people, you know. um and And especially, I think, in the last couple of years when I've reframed it to really look at at friendship and to sort of remove the Facebook element of it, um that coupled just with my own personal mental health journey and my own kind of like therapizing of myself and and all the work I've been doing there has really blended together to like kind of help me almost like enact or like put into practice the stuff that I talk about in therapy, you know? um
00:32:58
Speaker
So rather than just like sitting and talking and having it be the theory, i get to actually like enact it, you know? Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's been really, it's been really helpful. It's been really, but but you know, for, for me at least, you know, I don't know about listeners, but, you know, I mean, you if you're not doing things for yourself, then what is the point?
00:33:18
Speaker
really though at the end of the day that's kind of what it boiled down to you know and it's like it this show has never been for me about like i've never had aspirations of like being mark maron you know like i've never wanted it to be like number one on the charts i've never wanted it to to be anything like that i've always just i've really loved it's kind of like underground vibes of just like it's just a nobody talking to people you know um and and um I like that energy of like, it's, it's very, um but you know, guests don't bring pretension with them, you know, and they have nothing to prove because they're just chatting with a friend, you know? So it's like, it's very low, low.
00:34:01
Speaker
ah It's not taxing for people. Right. Yeah. Yeah, we um we also touched a bit on ah friendship breakups. And I'm wondering if in your early conversations when you were trying to go through everyone in your list, did you have to have any challenging conversations with people who you had experienced either a friendship or romantic breakup with?
00:34:25
Speaker
Yeah, you know, ah at the start, I just didn't ask them on the show. but You know, I just avoided that. there Yeah. yeah um But, you know, what I did over the years is that as I as I did start to.
00:34:41
Speaker
Shift the show um to be a little less loaded because, you know, I did realize in retrospect, like it's a little aggressive to be like, hey, I haven't talked to you in 10 years. Come on my show so I can unfriend you. Right. You know, like like if you're looking at just from the kind of like elevator pitch, it's like a little intense, you know.
00:34:59
Speaker
um and And especially, you know, for people from those kind of eras of my life, I was, you know, I was undiagnosed. I was unmedicated. i was untherapized. i I was just out there raw in the world, you know, just letting my like dysregulation freak flag fly. Right.
00:35:23
Speaker
And so ah I have to imagine I was remembered as quite a chaotic character in a lot of people's life, right? ah So for me to then show up 10 years later, i'd be like, no, I swear I've changed, you know?
00:35:38
Speaker
Wasn't always the easiest sales pitch, right? ah But as the years, yeah, as the years have gone on and I've been able to kind of show who I am, um I've definitely become more interested in in getting those kinds of guests on.
00:35:51
Speaker
um
00:35:55
Speaker
I've yet to have the, you know, even now I've yet to have like the real heavy hitters, you know, um just because it's like, I'm at a stage in my life where I'm like, I don't need to talk to you. So I don't want to, you know, right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:10
Speaker
yeah Right. You know, it's like, I almost kind of, i almost kind of missed the sweet spot um of what I could have done it. But, but, but at this point it's like, it wouldn't be beneficial for me. And I, and I don't care what they have to say. So why would I, you know, right. But, but,
00:36:26
Speaker
I did end up having a couple over the years, I've had a couple X's on and those have actually always been really fun because it's always just been like, oh yeah, there's a reason why we connected. And there's also a reason why we aren't connected now, you know?
00:36:38
Speaker
But it is always reassuring to know there isn't like a long simmering vitriol still, still there. Yeah. Yeah. We all, after a breakup, I feel like people try to rationalize it by like remembering the worst parts of a human yeah but it is nice to be like oh yeah we connected because we're just two people that that get along yeah that's just it and you know and it's it's funny actually that you know it's really like in in my experience and in in a lot of like what i've what i've read especially quite recently i went through a breakup kind of recently and so i was doing another round of like how do you deal with that and and uh a lot of the advice is like
00:37:21
Speaker
don't fixate on the good stuff. Let yourself remember the bad stuff. Let yourself remember why it ended, you know? um And, and I think that that's a really important step at the beginning to like, keep yourself from, you know,
00:37:34
Speaker
take me back, baby, you know yeah you know, whatever that bullshit, right? you know But it's also really important to let that stuff go at a certain point too, right? And like you say, to remember, it's like people are people and like, sure, the relationship didn't work. That doesn't make either of you a monster. That just means you weren't a match, right? And and I think that's so much healthier to just be like, yeah,
00:37:53
Speaker
Bad fit. yeah Have a good life, right? Yeah. I mean, sometimes some people are monsters. That does happen. 100%. Yes, yes. I'm i'm speaking contextually of like when it's just a breakup. Yes, absolutely.
00:38:08
Speaker
that that you know we've been talking predominantly about the idea of the, like the one-on-one connection, you know, and, and you, you did touch on it
Music as a Community
00:38:17
Speaker
already. So I wanted to kind of like tease it out a little bit more now because, you know, from that one-on-one, you then start building out community, right? You start adding one on two and three on three, and you know, and suddenly you have a room of people, right. and And, and, and, you know, community is another one of those really like, uh,
00:38:38
Speaker
what's the word? um It's a very, like, it's almost like a mirage of a word in that it it feels very self-explanatory until you actually start picking at it, you know? um And and ah it's another one that can be interpreted personally in so many different ways. And so I'm curious for you, what does the word community mean?
00:38:58
Speaker
And how do you sort of hold or maintain a community for yourself? I feel like ah community is... a group of people that have a shared purpose.
00:39:13
Speaker
um So the community that I've been lucky to be a part of is the the music community, especially in Calgary where I live. ah And it's a really easy community to be a part of because the shared purpose is just enjoying music and supporting local artists and having a great time together. And, and it's such a ah great thing that has come together.
00:39:37
Speaker
It comes together so naturally because you meet these people that are just going to all the same shows and the same venues and get to know people over time through that.
00:39:51
Speaker
ah And I've been and the music community for what feels like my entire life now, but it's been pretty much most of my adult life, especially the last like 12 years.
00:40:03
Speaker
And i love seeing all the same people that have been there from the start or welcoming new people into the fold and and really encouraging like new bands and things like that.
00:40:17
Speaker
ah So I never have to go to church. So... I never really understood what church was about until I started to really appreciate how important community is.
00:40:28
Speaker
And i I think it's great that it exists to have that, but I'm glad that ah my church is going to see rock and roll shows. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. You know, i love I love that description of it because that's very much my experience of it too. I, I, I went to see, uh, stars, uh, this is probably a couple months ago now. Um, and they, uh,
00:40:49
Speaker
I had this sort of epiphany moment because, you know, they, they were doing their, like, it was like the 20 year anniversary of set yourself fire. And they did this thing where the last song of the album, they played it acapella. They didn't have any instruments, but they had the entire room sing the song together. So it was the entire, you know, Commodore all singing this song.
00:41:09
Speaker
And yeah, it was spiritual. Like it was so like spiritually nourishing for me, you know? And, and it was like, yeah, it was a religious experience. And, and made me realize, i because i was I wasn't raised with any kind of religion at all, and and the the moments I've had, what you could describe as either like a patriotic moment or a spiritual moment, have all involved ah music, you know, and especially Canadian music, you know, and I think that's that's where, like, you know, I think i think we're really blessed to have a really incredible
00:41:42
Speaker
ah music culture you know um Calgary is one guy Calgary is a just a hotspot of incredible talent and incredible art and and um yeah it's amazing the power of just people all singing together in a room you know it's like yeah like you say no wonder no wonder people love church you know yeah yeah I think music is great because ah you watch a band who's like letting their guard down entirely and being so vulnerable and sharing their deepest feelings. And I think it makes a room full of people see that that is okay to do.
00:42:23
Speaker
So I find people are often at their best. I love connecting with people at shows. That's pretty much what I do for fun. Like that's, that's the only, I also love that you only have to talk to people for like five minutes in between the show and then, cause like, Oh, I'm watching. Sorry.
00:42:38
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. just Just enough time. Yeah. Yeah. and Yeah. If you, if you, if you really latched onto a boring one, you're like, Oh, don't worry. It's over. Right. You know? Yeah. Yeah. The, the, ah the, the shared vulnerability that people feel allowed to feel I think creates for ah some really special connections and moments.
Vulnerability and Authentic Connections
00:42:58
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and doesn't that that comes back, you know, that spurs my mind on to thinking about the idea of like modeling, right? You know, and how like we we we don't always know, you know, i always think about how like, you know, babies aren't born knowing how to fart, right? Like they literally can't coordinate their stomach muscles to fart. And so they have to be like helped, you know?
00:43:16
Speaker
and And it's why they like scream. but You know, one of the reasons is because like they're in pain because they don't realize they can just fart, you know? And to us, it's like, oh, it's so simple. Just, you know, but they have to be shown how, you know?
00:43:28
Speaker
and And then told later that it's wrong. you are right As soon as you learn how to do it. Yeah. Then we come in and, you know, that Anglo-Christian shame comes into play. and yeah yeah We ruin one of the best things our bodies does, you know? but but it is but But it's this idea of like, you know, we're not born knowing how to connect properly. We're not born knowing how to be friends or how to be in love or how to fart. Like we have to be shown everything. And that's okay. That's a beautiful thing. Like we're a communal monkey, right?
00:44:05
Speaker
um But being shown vulnerability is such a healing act um because sometimes you don't even realize that you're not being vulnerable until you see someone do it.
00:44:16
Speaker
right And then you go, oh shit, I i i want i want to do that. you know um And that's you know i mean to me, that's one of the key magic tricks of art right is i agree exactly what you're talking about. right
00:44:38
Speaker
When it comes to the idea of vulnerability within community, that's that's a really,
00:44:48
Speaker
that's a question that I've been really stuck on for a really long time. and And I'm curious about your experience. you know You're touching on it now about the idea of like being vulnerable within your art. um and And maybe you know you can tie it into some of the stuff you've been writing about. but But I'm curious about,
00:45:05
Speaker
that that personal experience of witnessing vulnerability or of presenting vulnerability and how has how has that been sort of received by the community, you know? um Because in my experience, there's been so many times, I think we look at it from a sort of social perspective and it's like, it's, you know, vulnerability is kind of shamed away from us and we're supposed to be like tough, big, tough, strong, you know?
00:45:27
Speaker
and And in my experience, the biggest strength, the biggest power is to be vulnerable, right? Yeah. And it's also what allows for authentic connection he to happen. If you're always putting on a front, you're never, no one's ever going to know who you really are. h Um, so yeah, I feel like the only way to really make friends and make connection and, and find community is to let your guard down and, uh,
00:45:57
Speaker
which is another thing that I i should probably work on. i ah I feel like I've established myself in a place in communities and friend groups as like the happy guy.
00:46:08
Speaker
when like Usually I'm deeply in pain. Yeah. ah But usually when i go out, it's because I am in a great mood. So people see this one side. And I think that's that's why those like core friendships are...
00:46:25
Speaker
so important because the people that are in the, I like to call them peripheral friends. Uh, they only usually see the, like the best side of you. Uh,
00:46:39
Speaker
and there's many sides to everyone. So, yeah um, yeah, I've been trying to like work on that. I, the question I hate the most in the entire world is how are you?
00:46:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:54
Speaker
it like it's and the more i think about how much i hate it the more i just don't even know what to do and it's like every because everyone's just hey how are you and then good you i've been really trying to stop saying good h you know it's so funny it's something that i try to address so often on this show i try my best not to open up the conversation with that it ends up usually happening anyway because it's just a tick but um but a guest of mine last year introduced me to instead of saying how are you you ask what's bringing you joy this week and and just as a way to sort of flip it and it's like yeah we're still going to look at something positive you know it's not it's not saying there is a negative but it's saying right now for a second we're going to look at a positive you know ah um and it doesn't lead that
00:47:43
Speaker
that exact same stock answer, like you say, because it's like, if you ask how I am, I'm like, well, how real do you want me to be? You know? Yeah. yeah you know That's the thing. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, when people do ask that, if I'm feeling shitty, I'm like, honestly, I'm stressed. Yeah.
00:47:59
Speaker
Yeah. And that's even, but I mean, that's beautiful. It's but I think it's beautiful to be honest about it. Right. and And, and, and, you know, I think there's a piece of like, I think we're taught to be sort of afraid of that answer because we're also supposed to be like offering solutions to each other.
00:48:20
Speaker
And maybe this is like, you know, maybe this is like an experience for like people who had a ah boyhood where it's like, I think, i think boys are conditioned to be in control and they're conditioned to be the answer giver and the solution maker. And so if I was to say, how are you? And you were to say stressed, I would be socialized to be like,
00:48:38
Speaker
what am I going to do about that? That must be right somehow now my responsibility. right When it's like, in fact, what you could just say is like, oh, that sucks. I'm really sorry to hear that. That sounds hard. you know Would you like help with that or do you want to just be hurt? you know right you know like you you know But we're conditioned to take on each other's emotions. So instead, we're taught to like repress those feelings because we don't want to share difficult or hard to hard to hold emotions. right Yeah, that what you just said was like, the most important thing that I learned from my own therapy journey is stop trying to fix everyone. Sometimes people just want to be validated. So I've stopped being like, oh, it's gonna be okay. That's something that I have removed.
00:49:23
Speaker
Yeah. through, it took a lot of training to, Oh yeah. To stop saying that and just say, say yeah, oh yeah, that does suck. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some of the most powerful moments in therapy or with my friends or just in general, my life have been in those moments where,
00:49:38
Speaker
either I've said it to someone or someone has said it to me where it's just been like, wow, that sucks, you know? And you're like, yeah, it does. know And that's all I wanted to hear. i just wanted to say, you right. You know, like I don't, I don't want a solution. I just want to be heard. Right. You know, um,
00:49:55
Speaker
And isn't that like such a core facet of, you know, friendship, of community, of connection, blah,
Closing Reflections and Gratitude
00:50:00
Speaker
blah, blah, you know? But um um I'm clocking the time here and i just I just want to make sure I'm not i'm not rushing through the end. um But, you know, before before I kind of get to, I've just got kind of like one or two kind of last questions for you. But, you know, before we launch into that, I just, you know, I really do want to say, Brett, like, thank you. Like, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. and and and And, you know, just, you're someone who,
00:50:30
Speaker
You know, we were saying this before recording, but I but i really wanted to just, like, gush for a second because it's like, you know, you were someone who we met so randomly. and But there was such a genuine spark of, like, respect and of admiration and of just, like, interest. Like, you just, like, you just, you were so easy to talk to you and connect to.
00:50:51
Speaker
And you've remained someone who I've seen... pop up here and there throughout my various feeds through the years. And and I'm always just like so excited to see you doing well. you know um and And I love the new music. i've beenve I've been playing that friendship song for months now. i absolutely love I just think it's fantastic.
00:51:12
Speaker
um And I just like i can't wait to see what you do next because I know whatever it is, it's going to rule. you know So i just I really do want to say thank you. and um and And yeah, I think you're amazing. The feeling is so, so mutual. And I think about... It's funny, like, all these people that you meet in... through life.
00:51:33
Speaker
Yeah. Like, you are definitely a person that, like... I drove you home from the the shuttle or whatever. And we just talked, just said so many words per minute, which is like, not, that's not typical of me to do. yeah And so, yeah, I think about you often.
00:51:54
Speaker
yeah And it's crazy that, that we met and that this is happening. And yeahre like I've been waiting a long time to be asked to come on this show. so I mean, I'm so i'm so glad ah we could make it work. I really am. yeah And it and it's it's it's it's it's such a funny thing.
00:52:10
Speaker
You know, it's the it's that weird intersection of, of like, of technology and then human behavior of, like, you know, yeah, you're somebody I've wanted on this show for ages, but I've always been like, oh, no, he's busy. He's cool. He's cool musician guy. You know, like,
00:52:27
Speaker
And so to hear like you've been like sitting here waiting is just so funny to me, you know, but a bunch of fucking dork dorks over here, you know, but. ah um This last kind of like tentpole question is something that I've i've i've been fiddling with a little bit throughout my recent interviews and, you know.
00:52:48
Speaker
It really stems from this idea of like the world it feels very dark these days, you know, with just like everything that's that's happening with the way the news works, with the way social media works, with the way just like politics are working in the environment everything. It just feels like there's just such a weight on everything, you know?
00:53:08
Speaker
And ah and I was I was I saw somebody post the other day about this idea of like we still have to do stuff even without hope and how it's like, okay to not have hope because we should still do it. And, and i really do push back on that because I don't find hope to be delusional and I don't find hope to be, uh, misplaced emotion.
00:53:31
Speaker
You know, um, I think it's a really beautiful thing to allow, um to allow yourself to be hopeful and to allow yourself to even in the middle of darkness, to allow yourself to feel some glimmer of of joy, you know?
00:53:44
Speaker
um And so I'm really curious for you, what is something that's been either giving you hope or what gives you hope for, you know, getting out of bed tomorrow?
00:53:55
Speaker
yeah Yeah. um It can really be hard to find for sure. ah For me, the thing that keeps me going and i feel so fortunate to have is creating music.
00:54:11
Speaker
And i am just trying to build my entire life around that and um and doing it as much as I possibly can and removing the things in my life that are not that so that Even when everything is fucked up, I still have an individual purpose.
00:54:39
Speaker
it is it's We're not programmed to feel the weight of the world. We're programmed to feel maybe the burden of 20 people around us from our pops yeah yeah from a small community. And now we see every all the bad things happening everywhere. And it's entirely...
00:55:03
Speaker
overwhelming And I think sometimes you do have to not think about it. Yeah. And yeah, I've definitely found just like giving myself fully to music and art has allowed me to keep going.
00:55:19
Speaker
Yeah. I think that's wonderful. um ah Last little, last little question before we get to the plugs. um um I love to leave listeners on a little bit of an actionable,
00:55:32
Speaker
thing that they can try out. So what do you think is one thing listeners could try doing this week to be a more ah effective friend, either to themselves or to their community? I think based on the lessons that I've learned, I think people should reach out to that person that they miss having in their life. That person that whether they had a falling out or just kind of drifted, but they're still on their mind, just reach out. Even if it's like my favorite little easy entry is when someone posts ah something on their Instagram story and just like responding to it in a way that kind of opens more
00:56:13
Speaker
conversation ah yeah that would that's that's my challenge yeah i love that one i i i fully co-signed that one and i i'm with you too i love when somebody posts something on their instagram that i can reply to because i'm like oh yes here's an in you know yeah and it often makes for some great little chats yeah yeah um well thank you one more time this has been just so lovely chatting with you and and hearing your stories um um Where can listeners find you? And like where would you like listeners to find you?
00:56:46
Speaker
ah So basically anywhere, social media, Brett Cassidy music on all of the places. And my first EP, A Selection of Ballads from the Old Man River is on Spotify.
00:57:00
Speaker
Awesome. Awesome. and all the the links for all that will be in the show notes, Brett. You're amazing. Keep it up. and You're amazing. Thank you. Let's connect in person one of these days. I would absolutely love that. We absolutely will. yeah Awesome. awesome
00:57:30
Speaker
And that's it. Thanks again to Brett for coming on the show. it was just such a treat catching up with him. I had to leave in that last little closer because I just thought it was so funny that we both did the same.
00:57:41
Speaker
Awesome. Just, you know, you can take the boy out of Berna, but...
00:57:47
Speaker
Be sure to give him a follow and ah see if he is playing in a city near you.
Listener Engagement and Farewell
00:57:54
Speaker
I know he is doing some some touring around the country. So if if you can do it, check him out. He's fantastic. I've also included links to his music. So give him some streams on whatever preferred music platform ah of your choice or even better. Why not?
00:58:10
Speaker
Go out and buy the record, right? Was that Will Smith who said that? I can't remember. Anyway, you're going to find all that information, all those links in the show notes. And while you're there, why not sign up for the monthly Friend List newsletter?
00:58:22
Speaker
Once a month, you're going to be getting a free curated list of recommendations. There's of movies, books, music, whatever else is you know bringing me joy that month. There's also going to be resources you may want to check out if you want to learn more about some of the topics that come up in certain episodes. Things like dbt, community building, just you know general brain healing tools. There's also exclusive writing by yours truly along with sneak peeks at my other creative projects, other things, whatever is coming down the pipeline.
00:58:52
Speaker
all that and so much more. It's absolutely packed. I really have no excuse why I'm not charging you for it, but hey, here we are. So sign up today. You have no excuse.
00:59:04
Speaker
But that is going to do it for me this week. So let's wrap things up here. Thank you so much for listening and I hope to catch back here next time. But hey, I'm not going to worry about that right now and neither should you because that is then and this is now.
00:59:16
Speaker
So for now, I'll just say I love you and I wish you well. Fun and safety, sweet peas.