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Rebuilding Connection After Mistakes (with special guest Dr. Christine Cooper)
103 Plays4 days ago
In this very special episode of Friendless, host James Avramenko welcomes Dr. Christine Cooper — pharmacist, author, and self-proclaimed “reforming mean girl.” Christine opens up about her journey from being a not-so-nice kid to learning about empathy, accountability, and authentic human connection. She shares personal stories of growth, how constantly moving as a child delayed her understanding of the consequences of her actions, and the pivotal moment in college that made her self-reflect on who she wanted to be.
Christine discusses her book Finding Value: A Reforming Mean Girl’s Guide for Creating More Meaningful Connections, offering wisdom on building better friendships, setting healthy boundaries, and cultivating curiosity. Together, she and James explore what it really means to be a friend, how to take actionable steps toward kindness (starting with the person in front of you), and the importance of balancing your own needs with those of others. Christine also offers practical advice on accountability, healthy communication (including the tricky realm of nonverbal cues), and fostering a sense of community—even across divides.
This episode is packed with real talk, laughs, and useful takeaways for anyone looking to create more meaningful relationships in their lives.
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Transcript
Introduction: Consequences and Boundaries
00:00:08
Speaker
Well, hey there, sweet peas. Welcome back to Friendless. I'm your host, James Avromenko, and this week I'm chatting with Dr. Christine Cooper, author, pharmacist, and reformed mean girl, to talk all about how to learn from the consequences of our actions.
00:00:22
Speaker
We discuss actionable ways to break old habits, how to define and then set your boundaries with love, and why active community building might be the most important thing you could do right now. All this and so much more. You're going to love it. So it's time to lean back, get company, set your volume at a reasonable level and enjoy my interview with Dr. Christine Cooper here on Friendless.
00:00:47
Speaker
To really kind of get us rolling, um I want to open with a ah very ah plain and and seemingly simple question, but um who the hell are you?
00:01:00
Speaker
Well, I am me, and I am a lot of fun, I think. But, you know, I might be a little biased.
00:01:07
Speaker
ah ah That being said, i i initially identify, I suppose, as a pharmacist. so That's my my day job, um which explains the doctorate that you you mentioned. um But I also identify as someone who is a reforming mean girl.
00:01:25
Speaker
was... was Perhaps, actually not perhaps, I was not the nicest person earlier in my life. And um I actually moved around so much that I didn't learn the consequences of my actions until a little bit later in life. I was in college by the time i stayed still long enough for me to learn what happens when you don't treat people.
00:01:49
Speaker
as well as they need to be treated. yeah um And ah so there were some bumps along the way, and I have learned a lot from those. And now I share my experiences and what I have learned to hopefully help others.
The Journey to 'Finding Value': Writing and Advice
00:02:04
Speaker
I love that so much. And you've you've you've written a book, Finding Value, ah that that kind of explores some of these topics. And and i want to I want to kind of dig into that a little bit without, you know, I don't want to give away all your secrets, obviously. I want the listeners to buy the book, you know, but but I think that's going to very much be kind of a ah central point. um and and I guess to begin with, I'd like to to hear about um the the sort of formation of the book. Like what, you know, you I feel like you're you're you're starting to tap into it, but I'm curious about what was the sort of prompting event for you to decide to to write this this resource?
00:02:40
Speaker
um So, In going through these experiences in life, obviously you get to have some great stories to share when someone comes to you for advice.
00:02:52
Speaker
And when I started sharing these stories and explaining to people how I would now approach a situation versus what I initially did, um they would often come back to me and tell me how wonderful that advice was and how helpful it was and how those stories resonated with them.
00:03:11
Speaker
and After a while, I was like, I should write these down.
00:03:21
Speaker
So I did. um and you know, I had always wanted to write a book and I but I didn't know exactly what it was going to be on until i realized how valuable these these stories have been to others.
00:03:33
Speaker
So, yeah.
Justifying Actions: The Role of Empathy
00:03:35
Speaker
and And circling back to this idea of, you know, the reformed mean girl, the the sort of, you know, for, you know, but yeah the word it triggers in in my mind is the idea of like the bully, right? You know, and, and, and I've been really ruminating on this a lot recently is this idea of, you know, everyone, i think I should, I should caveat that. I try to be really careful around my black and white speaking, but, but, but a lot of people, myself included,
00:04:00
Speaker
um will often find themselves as the the hero of the story, right? Because we we'll know our internal logic. So we know why we're doing something. And we don't always um track what potential impact they may that may have from others because they don't read our minds.
00:04:20
Speaker
right and And I wonder, um you know how much of an impact did you find something like that to sort of double back to this idea of like, you know, your childhood and and and these kinds of things. Cause I think that sort of bully behavior starts young, you know? yeah and and ah And I'm curious, did you find yourself when you were kind of, ah yeah, in that phase, did you find yourself like justified within that?
00:04:44
Speaker
Oh yeah, absolutely. Because as you just said, we are all the heroes in our own stories. yeah um and And I agree with that statement. It's a cliche for a reason.
00:04:56
Speaker
but um and And yes, internally we can always find some sort of justification as to why we did the things that we did.
00:05:08
Speaker
um And with within ourselves, we will we will find,
00:05:20
Speaker
like the the self-reflection happens, but it doesn't necessarily take a look at how our actions impacted others to a full extent.
Balancing Self-Care and Empathy
00:05:30
Speaker
we see that surface value versus what happened after, what how did it impact them? What what is that next piece? And of course, empathy is where that comes in and being able to take it those next steps. But um you know the the phrase that comes to mind is the one that gets used at work quite a bit. What's that unintended consequence?
00:05:54
Speaker
yes And it applies at work, but it applies at home too. yeah yes, I just did this thing that's great for me, but the unintended consequence is maybe somebody loses out on an opportunity for them to have something great in their life because I took it.
00:06:11
Speaker
And we can justify that in our minds and sometimes it is okay. Other times it's not. And that's such an interesting balance too, isn't it? Of, of of you know, because it's it's funny that's where you ended up because that's where my brain started going of like, you know, there are moments where it is good to stand for yourself and it is good to to grow yourself, ah you know? and and And yet at the same time, there is a delicate balance. I don't believe ah in its natural state.
00:06:46
Speaker
You know, people are, I don't believe we live in a zero sum game. You know, it doesn't always have to be if I gain, you lose. Correct. But the system that we have been forced to play within operates as if that's the case, right?
Influence of Society and Media
00:07:01
Speaker
Very much so. um And i'm I'm so happy you brought that up because often if we sit and think through a situation, give ourselves just a little bit more time, we can typically find something that works well for both people.
00:07:17
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. um oh you yeah I already know we're going to be able to just spiderweb this conversation in a million directions. So that's really exciting. um But i want I want to keep sticking with this for a little bit. I want to talk a little bit more about the idea of sort of the childhood behavior and how that ends up continuing to be really ingrained in how we show up. um um This is going to sound like a little bit of an offshoot, but I swear it's related.
00:07:46
Speaker
And it's it's this idea of what we end up kind of taking for granted because we get shown once or twice when we're a kid and then where it's never really talked about. um And I was thinking about how if you want to start one of the most vitriolic online debates, um ask people which way the toilet roll should be put on the thing, right?
00:08:10
Speaker
It rolls from the top. Thank you. I mean, obviously, right?
00:08:16
Speaker
but But the amount of, like, venom that will come out of people for these, like, seemingly arbitrary little things, right? And and it's because, you know, we're where we talk about it as children, and then that just becomes our truth. And then it never, you know, or like or like, you know, if you want to get a little more gross with it, it's like, do you do you stand or do you lean over to wipe? You know, it's like something little, like something that's so intimate and so personal and quiet, but that we're only shown when we're little.
00:08:42
Speaker
and then that becomes ingrained in us, right? And I'm curious in your experience, you know building off those ideas, um um you know where do you think you learned those sort of tropes of of you know control and and of of kind of like diminishing, you know?
00:09:01
Speaker
So i i'd like to preface this part of my story by saying i have two of the kindest, most wonderful parents. So please don't blame them. They are fantastic. Yes. This is not like a, it's gotta be the parents gotcha moment, right? Right? It's not.
00:09:19
Speaker
ah But when you look on TV, the people who are popular, the people who are successful, they're the ones with like those snippy comments and the comebacks that you're just like, Ooh, look at that.
00:09:30
Speaker
And I learned pretty quick when I moved schools, which I moved every two years, that if you make people laugh, They wanna be your friends. And the easiest way to make make people laugh is to single somebody out and tear them down.
00:09:48
Speaker
yeah
00:09:51
Speaker
And it's when that becomes part of who you are and how you become accepted in your community, it's difficult to realize that's not normal.
00:10:05
Speaker
and especially when kids are just hyenas. Right. ah like Kids terrify me, you know? but
00:10:16
Speaker
But it it does, you know, um a that leads me into this idea of of sort of the other piece that you you you touched on and i and I'd like to to hear about your expansion on is this idea of the accountability piece.
Moments of Self-Reflection and Change
00:10:30
Speaker
Because, you know, we see it. And I do find... You know, kids are really intuitive and they see what happens, but they don't always have the language for it. Right. And so they may not they may they may understand it, but they don't necessarily know how to verbalize. And and I do find, you know, i know as a kid, I was on both sides of the the bully coin.
00:10:49
Speaker
You know, I know there was. There was times i was, you know, I got beat up, I got chased around, I got called every name you can think of. And then there were also moments where I was part of the bullying crowd, you know. um I very much, i that story of make people laugh, that is ah very, very familiar for me, right?
00:11:05
Speaker
um And I know for myself looking back, I knew i could see the reactions, you know, and and I didn't know what to do with that.
00:11:16
Speaker
um And it wasn't until years later that that idea of the empathy and the idea of accountability came into play. But by then it's sort of, for me at least, it felt too late. um And I guess I'm curious for you, what was your, you know, what was, you mentioned the idea of in university or in college, you know, um what what was that like? Like, what was that kind of triggering event for you there?
00:11:38
Speaker
Um, it's a pretty blunt event. Uh, my, my then best friend and I were chatting and, um, we were, we were of course gossiping because that was kind of our MO. We like to do that.
00:11:53
Speaker
And we were talking about our friends and I, she mentioned one of our other friends and she said, you know, she's really nice. She's probably the nicest of us. And I said, well, I think I'm nice. And I get this look and, and, uh, Oh,
00:12:06
Speaker
and and i oh Actually, the reason I like you is because you're not. Right. And, oh, wait. Yeah.
00:12:18
Speaker
Yeah. And that even be that even being framed as a compliment in and of itself is an eye opener too, right? Mm-hmm. So ah i wanted to be seen as somebody who is good and kind and nice.
00:12:35
Speaker
And it was that moment to help me understand that I was not presenting in that fashion. Um, and it, it, um, it's something I still work on.
00:12:48
Speaker
Um, but um but Every day, i know how to self reflect better because of that. I know how to look inwards because of that. I know that I need to take those. I talked about those extra steps to maybe find those win-win situations. I know that I need to do that now.
00:13:07
Speaker
um And thankfully. It's working a lot better than it was.
00:13:14
Speaker
ah and And that is, that really is the next piece that I wanted to talk about is the idea of like, yeah, putting this
Understanding Personal Values and Boundaries
00:13:21
Speaker
in action. Right. And, and because I think that, um, There's so much room for theorizing, right? And there's so much room for even, you know, obviously awareness, you know, my therapist always loves to say like, awareness is half the battle, you know, like, like you, cause you can't change what you're not aware of.
00:13:37
Speaker
So as long as, you know, even just knowing is like, you're, you're on the right track. Right. um But then it can feel so overwhelming of like, do I go, do I go back? Do I contact this person in grade six and say, oh my God, I'm so sorry. Or like, what, you know, Like, ah where do you draw these lines and how do you start? Right.
00:13:55
Speaker
um And so I'm curious, like, you know, ah for sort of like, you know, something actionable for listeners, I guess, is like, where where do you begin with that process? Where do you recommend?
00:14:06
Speaker
The person in front of you.
00:14:10
Speaker
um You know, yes, there may be opportunities to go back to your past and and have those moments. And if they present themselves and fantastic, take them um if you are so inspired.
00:14:23
Speaker
But when it comes to who you are today, the person in front of you, the next person you see, that's where you start. Yeah.
00:14:35
Speaker
Oh, that's perfect. I love that because you're spot on. it's you know don't yeah I guess it's that thing of like, ah you know don't go you don't have to go hunting for it. It's already there. Right. yeah right Yeah. um and And how do you recommend, you know, um what are some sort of like first steps? Like, and like like what I guess, what does sort of accountability represent for you, you know, and and how is that sort of actionable in a way?
00:15:02
Speaker
So the very first step for me, um is actually learning about your own values. What, what do you need in life in order to feel happy and content and successful?
00:15:16
Speaker
Learn what those values are and make sure you stand by them because that's going to be important. You don't let yourself go by the wayside as part of this.
00:15:28
Speaker
However, When you understand what you need from life, you are then able to help others provide those things for you and you then have better opportunities to provide what they need in life as well.
00:15:47
Speaker
um This makes me think, I say this often on the show and it's because it's one of my favorite like therapist lines is the idea, you know, it's sounding to me like a reflection of the idea of like, you know, you put your air mask on first, right? and And, you know, you clarify your needs so that you can show up how you can.
00:16:04
Speaker
Yes. um I know, I know for me, i've I've had these patches of like massive burnout because I've, I've cared so much and I want to help so much, but I don't actually have the capacity, but I do it anyway. Right. And, and I, I've found that that ends up being at times more destructive than if I just stepped back and said like, wow, that sounds really hard. I'm so sorry. You're going through that.
00:16:26
Speaker
I'll help when I can. So you mentioned earlier that people can't read minds. Hmm. what What I like to say in response to that, because they cannot read minds, is provide them a roadmap.
00:16:40
Speaker
yeah Give them directions on how to treat you. When you do that, you'll be surprised at how many people return the favor and tell you what they need as well.
00:16:53
Speaker
And of course, Some people would like you to, i say devalue yourself because you know it's all about finding value in yourself, finding value in others.
00:17:05
Speaker
But some people would like you to devalue yourself, not for you to walk away from those pieces of yourself that you need. in order to feel fulfilled and understood in order to fulfill their needs. But when you have that roadmap and you stand by it, you can be certain that you are going to make sure your needs are met so that you can take care of others as well.
00:17:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. and it And it, you know, it's so funny that it's like, it it sounds, it sounds counterintuitive, but it's not, you know, it's, it really is, you know, you tend to yourself so that you can tend to others. It's not a selfish act, right? It's, it's the opposite.
00:17:51
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, it's, I sometimes feel odd as ah somewhat as a self-identifying mean girl to say, i need to i you know i need to stand by my needs.
00:18:07
Speaker
But when I do that, others know how to take care of them. They provide the information on what they need. And look, we're both happy. Yeah, yeah.
00:18:21
Speaker
Previously, it might have been one of us or none of us that were happy. Yes. Yeah. It's it's almost yeah what I found in those situations is is that it's like it's allowing yourself to trust that you're both adults.
00:18:34
Speaker
Right. because Because I do find in in my personal experience, a lot of sort of like... ah you know Whether it comes down to like attachment theory stuff or you know kind of like yeah ah but anxious avoidant type things, often it comes down to this like inadvertent in infantilization you know of like I'm going to tend or I'm going to expect to be tended to in in ah in a power dynamic that doesn't work for two adults. you know That would work for a parent-child, but not two...
Defining Friendship and Authenticity
00:19:01
Speaker
So when you trust...
00:19:02
Speaker
both of you to just be adults, you then find, oh yeah, we we can we cant tend to ourselves and then we can offer what we have left, you know? Yes. And and that's so much more beneficial for everyone involved, right?
00:19:15
Speaker
Yes. And it it works at work. It works at home. Yeah. yeah um That does lead me right into, you know, the first of my kind of like core questions. um and and ah And I'm really curious about about your take on this. You know, this show often explores, obviously, the concepts of ah friendship and connection and intimacy and these kinds things.
00:19:36
Speaker
and and And at the heart of it is the question of what is a friend, right? And and it's such a you know superfluous question, but also like ah it can have a billion answers, you know? um And I'm curious and for you, from your personal standpoint, ah what does it mean to be a friend?
00:19:55
Speaker
It means a lot of things, but I think at the core of it is being able to see someone for who they are. Accept that person as a whole, the good, the bad, the ugly, into your life and help them
00:20:17
Speaker
and help yourself feel connection. Mm-hmm.
00:20:25
Speaker
the, um
00:20:28
Speaker
you spoke, i was I was reading, building on that, the the idea of authenticity, you know, and and um developing the more sort of authentic connections.
00:20:40
Speaker
um
00:20:44
Speaker
When you speak of, you know, allowing people to be who they are, right? um um How do you find, or how do you advise people to sort of navigate the tightrope walk of of allowing people to be authentically themselves while recognizing that more or less everyone has the capacity for any number of violent acts, harmful acts, abandonment, whatever it might be, right? And and and sort of trusting,
00:21:15
Speaker
yeah you know, trusting that despite being capable of it, they won't, right? Right.
00:21:23
Speaker
That's an interesting question. I like it. um
00:21:28
Speaker
And I have a return question for you. When was the last time you went into your job and and said, I'm going bad at my job today?
00:21:39
Speaker
ah Today? No.
00:21:47
Speaker
Well, that ruined my question. yeah
00:21:51
Speaker
um um I mean, just the the pure irony of it was that i literally threw my therapy. My therapist in my last session was like, how much are you paid to care? and i was like And I was like, well, well none none. I just do. And he's like, exactly. So stop it.
00:22:06
Speaker
You know, right?
00:22:10
Speaker
Because I'm like stressing myself up over it, you know? But but but no, but in actuality, like, If it has genuinely happened, it's been a very long time where I've like actively wanted to go in and do bad, right?
00:22:26
Speaker
And I think the same is true. like How many people do you know have have been like, I want to be a bad friend? Exactly. And so are there times when trust is hard?
00:22:39
Speaker
Yes. um There are times when people choose to break relationships. um whether it's a romantic relationship or a friendship or even a family relationship where things just aren't lining up and people are not paying attention to your boundaries and you need to draw that line.
00:23:00
Speaker
um
00:23:03
Speaker
Although I don't think that makes you a bad family member. I don't think that makes you a bad person. Like, no means yeah by no means, yeah. No. um But the vast majority of people want to be seen as good and whole and helpful and part of ah community that takes care of each other.
00:23:27
Speaker
Not everybody does. I freely admit that. I understand that. And part of what I talk about in in the book, but in creating and understanding your values is doing as much as you can to recognize those people And the your boundaries and the roadmap that you create to define your values help pull those people out and separate them from your life so that the really good ones and the ones who want to be there are there.
00:24:00
Speaker
And they are the they are your people. They are the ones that you can turn to and have those connections with. I love that. And i i I wish we had spoken last year because I could have really used that. But, you know...
00:24:14
Speaker
i think I think at some point in time we all could have used that. But but but it's so, you know, i think I think building on that, one thing that that brings out in me is this idea of impatience, right? And the idea of wanting it, wanting the answer right away and and recognizing that that's not how people work, right?
00:24:37
Speaker
um And I love this reminder you're giving of... of um Because even in moments of dysregulation, even in moments of chaos, we do choose these things.
00:24:50
Speaker
you know We choose to behave the way we choose. Yes, there are other factors. Yes, there are obviously, you know I mean, I have i have a ah ransom note worth of diagnosed letters in in my files.
Recognizing Behavioral Choices
00:25:02
Speaker
you know like i I know all about comorbidities and mental illness. this and you know ah There's obviously factors that go into play.
00:25:08
Speaker
But at the end of the day, What I find helpful is to empower myself to choose to acknowledge that I choose those actions. you know Even when I make bad actions, I chose that because I decided, you know what, I'm going to be chaotic today. You're right. You know, out sometimes the world needs.
00:25:26
Speaker
That's just it. Right. That's exactly right. You know, and and and recognizing that that doesn't diminish any worthiness or goodness or anything like that. Right. um But on the flip side, offering it to people and offering that patience.
00:25:39
Speaker
right um um Do you find, know, within this realm of like what you're talking about, about sort of like giving people, don't know if I would call it the benefit of the doubt necessarily, but the idea of letting them work at their pace, right?
00:25:57
Speaker
What do you read me and recommend doing, ah for lack of a better way of putting it, what do you recommend doing in the meantime? you know
00:26:09
Speaker
So i i consider all of this the long game. Yeah. It, it's not, uh, it's, I shouldn't say that it's, it's rarely a, an instant moment.
00:26:22
Speaker
Um, there are, the there most certainly have been people that I have met and immediately been like, we're best friends. Like that's just how it is now.
00:26:35
Speaker
yep And thankfully most people have agreed with me.
00:26:41
Speaker
Yep. That's, I mean, it's not always the case, but you know, yeah and then there's other times where you meet people and you're like, I don't know about you. Yeah. And maybe your initial reaction is the right one.
00:26:56
Speaker
And you had a good instinct on that particular person. um Other times it takes getting to know them and asking questions and being curious about them as a person and how they approach things and learning about why they approach things the way that they do. And then all of a sudden, you know, six months, a year down the road, you're like, actually, I really like this person.
00:27:20
Speaker
Yes. And so it's it's curiosity is what I suggest. Yeah, thank you for that. Because I think that that spot, i in my experience, that's spot on. It's something I teach my my classes too, of you know in in moments of and moments of doubt, in moments of when you get blocked by something, you know ah those those aren't moments of failure. Those are moments, those are opportunities to get curious, right? Those are opportunities to go, well, why? Why is this happening, right?
00:27:45
Speaker
um it's when we It's when we start to say, I know better, that's when we start losing out, right? you know Yes. So I strongly suggest um This actually comes from a book called Crucial Conversations, but the the line, why would a reasonable person do this?
00:28:04
Speaker
And you ask that of yourself. You make up a little story about why somebody would do something. And all of a sudden you have an understanding of what is happening, whether whether or not your understanding is true or not.
00:28:22
Speaker
It helps you get to a place where you can be curious and ask those questions and be patient and allow the story to truly unfold.
00:28:33
Speaker
It's so funny because that that thought... I immediately see it as a two-sided coin of like, it can be so it can be used so beautifully and then they can be used so destructively if you make if you make a jump decision of like, well, this is why they did that and this is why they did that, then it must be, you know, and suddenly you've got this whole narrative of why they're a monster, right?
00:28:54
Speaker
Well, and that's why i like the word reasonable. Why would a reasonable person do this?
00:29:01
Speaker
That's a very, very good qualifier there. yeah and And you have to, in your mind, and I'm i'm among this, so when I say you have to, i include myself, um you have to allow them to be reasonable in your mind, even if you don't think that they are.
00:29:15
Speaker
Yes. yeah Yeah. Well, isn and isn't that the case too? Isn't it so easy when we get into conflict to start seeing them as, seeing them as irrational, right? um I know for myself, you know, in in my moments of most like dysregulated, I'm convinced I'm totally rational and I'm totally, you know, I know exactly what I'm talking about and it's them who's nuts, you know? And then and then you look back and you're like, James, what the fuck were you talking about? you when you When you do that self-reflection and you go, oh, I really could have handled this better. yeah
00:29:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Those are hard moments. Those are hard, you know, right? Yes.
Establishing Personal Boundaries in Relationships
00:30:03
Speaker
one of the One of the big ah points of your book that you talk about is the idea of boundaries and and sort of you know identifying and then establishing boundaries.
00:30:14
Speaker
and And to begin with, I'm really curious about... how you sort of how do you reflect the difference between um ah sort of a boundary versus a a sort of a desire versus like a need?
00:30:29
Speaker
and And do you see them as separate or or do you see them as kind of inter interwoven? and
00:30:38
Speaker
I'm not sure I've ever sat and reflected on that. So that's that's a ah good question. um in it like In theory, i would say absolutely they're all different.
00:30:51
Speaker
ah But i I think your boundaries are made up of both your needs and your wants. Yes. um So definitely interwoven as well. Yeah. um I have a cute story that I think applies here, so I'll share that. Please, please do. um You know, I was dating a guy once, and we had been we'd been dating for a few years, and he honestly, he liked to smack my butt.
00:31:15
Speaker
And, you know, at first you're like, oh, that's cute. You know, yeah it's very playful and flirty and you encourage it. And then over time you start to realize I'm afraid to walk out of the room because I'm going to have a handprint on my butt when I leave. Yeah.
00:31:33
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, of you start to set those boundaries and he was like, I don't understand. This hasn't been a problem. Why is it a problem now? And you know, it became a need to not feel fearful in my own home.
00:31:51
Speaker
yeah And he was just being playful. It wasn't, he wasn't trying to be mean. He wasn't trying to do things that made me fearful. um But that's what it had transitioned to And so it took a little time to get him to understand how that transition came to be about and why it was there.
00:32:10
Speaker
yeah And having those conversations, even though yes, it initially was a fantastic flirty fun, i enjoy this.
00:32:22
Speaker
And now it's not, you know, having that conversation, we had to have it a couple of times, to be honest, but we got there and our relationship was so much better as a result.
00:32:32
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Well, you know, and you you bring up, oh my God, there's so many points in that that I think are fantastic. And thank you for sharing that. I really do appreciate it because it really, you know, it speaks to the idea that, um you know,
00:32:46
Speaker
from a lot of frames, you know you can look at the idea of you know ah body consent. You can look at the idea of of how things aren't... You don't just make one choice and that's the choice for the rest of your life.
00:32:56
Speaker
right you're you're you're You're allowed to morph and change and things are allowed to change. um And your your desires and your your needs are allowed to change. right and and i And I think A lot of people, myself very much included in this, have trapped themselves in situations because, you know, well, I said it was okay a year ago, so it's got to still be okay because, well, I don't want conflict or whatever it might be, right? you know ah But that ends up, to me, those are the moments where...
00:33:28
Speaker
This is tricky to say because I'm not trying to be like victim blaming in any capacity, but it's like to me, those are those little flash moments where it's like you're now participating in the situation you don't want to be in, you know, um because of your yeah reluctance to stand up for yourself. Right. Right.
00:33:48
Speaker
um And those are really tricky. Those are really tricky to navigate. And and it's scary. right but um But also dealing like with straight men is a nightmare. But, you know.
00:34:02
Speaker
ah Yes, I have stories of that as well.
00:34:08
Speaker
and But you may need to have that conversation more than once. Yes. And yeah we did. We had to have it four or five times before. oh okay. Like the light bulb finally got there.
00:34:20
Speaker
ah And i I shouldn't say it sarcastically, but. Yeah. Yeah. but but But I think it's really important to recognize that um one conversation isn't going to solve anybody's behaviors at all. you know And i think I think it's really important to you know thank you for the reminder of that, that it's like, it's not, well, we talked about this one time, how dare you not be different now?
00:34:41
Speaker
Right? you know um ah That's just not how people work. you you No one has ever had one conversation about any behavior whatsoever. And not stuck forevermore, right? And it's solved. Yeah. magically So I think being prepared for that kind of thing is important, right?
00:34:58
Speaker
Well, and, you know, ah in part of... having your boundaries is determining how many of those conversations do you feel are important. Are you making any progress within those conversations? Is there movement forward?
00:35:12
Speaker
Is there some sort of understanding happening? Or are they, I'm going to say willfully because you've talked to them about it. Are they, are you being willfully ignored? Yes.
00:35:23
Speaker
So that that was going to lead me into the, you know, so we're starting with sort of the concept, you know, idea of kind of, we're we're really only at like defining boundaries at this point. um but But, you know, you've you've begun to decide what your boundaries are.
Cultural Contexts in Communication
00:35:36
Speaker
um and ah And I'm really curious about, um I guess, bridging into the idea of like, yeah, effectively establishing them, you know, like, is it, is it you know, do you recommend sort of like,
00:35:50
Speaker
you start by sort of planting them with yourself or do you plant them, you know, communicating with others or, or what do you recommend kind of moving out from there? So I highly recommend being proactive about them.
00:36:03
Speaker
Um, it's much easier, so much easier to establish boundaries at the beginning of a relationship than it is once you have started to establish a relationship. Um, so the more you can do of that, the better.
00:36:18
Speaker
Um, and, Once you have defined what your boundaries are, then you just stand by them. You don't have to be mean about it. You just say, This is what I need.
00:36:29
Speaker
And that's, that's, you just stand through it. You can be stubborn on that. Like I'm okay with being stubborn on certain things. That's one of them. I mean, that again, that's another case of healthy ego to me, right? Where it's yeah like, that's protective. It's good. Yeah. Yes.
00:36:44
Speaker
Now in an established relationship, you're going to have to have those conversations and you're going to have to make sure things are progressing and that people are actually improving.
00:36:56
Speaker
in their behaviors and attitudes. um And at some point in time, if they are not, then have to determine when it's time to cut them out.
00:37:10
Speaker
That leads into another piece. So so you talk often about um the idea of like verbal versus nonverbal cues. And that also leads into the idea of of of basically handling handling disagreement in in a healthy manner.
00:37:26
Speaker
um And i know i know those are kind of separate concepts, but I'd i'd like to sort of start kind of dogpiling them on top of each other because I do feel like they interlace with each other. But I want to start with the idea of, um you know, so I'm, I'm, ah ah but I always call it spectral, but that's so inappropriate. I'm neurodivergent.
00:37:48
Speaker
and um And so, you know, nonverbal cues are tough for me. I'll be honest, you know? and and And I sometimes worry that my my fascination with nonverbal cues is almost overly sterile because I'm like, I overanalyze them because I'm so hyper aware of them because I'm not trusting myself to to read them, right?
00:38:10
Speaker
um and And I'm curious about how you recommend kind of implementing, like how do you, How do you gauge nonverbal ah communication versus the verbal?
00:38:22
Speaker
I mean, i I forget the statistic, but I know it's over 50%. I want to say it's 70%, but please do not quote me on that. Like mostly communication. It's even higher, I think, of like nonverbal versus verbal. It's like 80% or something crazy. yeah Yes. Like it's it's definite it's definitely over 50. We know that for sure. yeah yeah It's why I'm so anxious all the time, you know?
00:38:44
Speaker
Right?
00:38:46
Speaker
Fair. and So it's it's watching, it's watching people's eyes. um And I always hesitate to say eye contact because different cultures have different views on eye contact.
00:39:00
Speaker
um And so i do recommend ah in in my book a certain level of eye contact so it's not too intense. but still paying attention and still, um, still providing a certain level of awareness of what, what's going on. Um, and, and when I say that it's, it's like looking into somebody's eyes for about eight seconds and then doing a quick glance away and coming back and then it It just shows active listening. yeah yeah um ah ah A lot of what we're doing, we're both doing head nods.
00:39:34
Speaker
yeah We like the conversation. We're agreeing with the person. um I mean, these are these are the easy things to see. but Let's say somebody doesn't particularly want to be around you.
00:39:45
Speaker
You can see their shoulders turn away from you, their feet turn away from you, or maybe they have um a piece of paper that they put in between you and them. because they want some sort of space.
00:39:57
Speaker
um So those are kind of some of the things that you can look at and watch. um
00:40:06
Speaker
you can You can often hear in a voice, like the tone of voice, which technically is a verbal communication, but kind of falls in that in-between. Okay, I'm ready for this conversation to be over. I need to go do something else. i like it It shows up. Yeah, yeah. yeah I'm really curious about, you know, something that that, a direction that puts my mind is this idea of like,
00:40:30
Speaker
You know, we are programmed to understand so much nonverbal communication and physical communication. and And yet, also at the same time, I do find um a lot of, especially i find North American culture, Canadian culture, for sure, um is so ingrained with...
00:40:50
Speaker
basically passive aggressive behavior, right? um And so what we're saying is often so opposite from what we're actually thinking versus what we're actually projecting. There's like layers of communication that get muddled with each other.
00:41:04
Speaker
and And I think that's a piece of what what makes me sometimes dis distressed nonverbal cues because it's like I don't even know sometimes if the person knows what they're doing you know ah and and I'm curious how you sort of unpack those those layers of like the sort of what would you call that the sort of like physiological or instinctual measures that we have versus the sort of like social norms or culturally ingrained triggers that we that we kind of pile on top of them
00:41:37
Speaker
it it is It does vary culture to culture. um the The story I share in the book is actually about I was i was visiting some friends in Switzerland.
00:41:50
Speaker
And um I speak a little bit of French, but it's basically to make sure I'm well fed. And that's about it. And... and So I don't understand full conversations by far.
00:42:03
Speaker
um We were in rural Switzerland and ah two of my friends that I was with, they one was a French national and the other was Swiss national. So they speak fluent French. and um We were at one of their friends' houses and there were these two older gentlemen um hanging out and having a conversation. and I kind of guessed from their body language that they were talking about politics, that you know how your shoulders get it tense and you're like, I need, I'm right, this is my way. And they were having those opposing opinions. And um what one of my friends, I later asked him, I said, so were they talking politics? He's like, yes, as old men do.
00:42:48
Speaker
even though
00:42:51
Speaker
ah so though there are cultural differences. They do change tend to transcend certain, certain lines.
00:43:03
Speaker
yeah Um, so it's okay to have faith in yourself as well. Um, and When it comes down to a lot of communication, how people hold their face is really important.
00:43:16
Speaker
Like, are they smiling, but has it reached their eyes? um okay Things like that. Yeah.
Community Building and Volunteering
00:43:22
Speaker
I love that. and Thank you for that. Because that is a really, ah you know, that feels like a really beautiful evocation of the fact that like, yes, language, culture,
00:43:30
Speaker
geography there are things that divide us and yet you really do boil us down and we're all the same storytelling monkey you know right you know like we kind of can't help it at the end of the day you know like there's just there's sort of pieces of our brain that you just can't escape no matter where you are right you know but you're always going to turn your feet away from the person you don't want to talk to you know no matter what country i want to go towards the door so my feet are heading that way exactly
00:44:04
Speaker
That really does lead me into this question of community, you know, and and it's this this idea of, you know, ah to me, the way I've started seeing it is like, you know, the friendship is the one on one. And then the community is like the the network of those one on ones.
00:44:17
Speaker
um To me, it doesn't always mean you're friends with everyone in the community, but it's like it's a it's a it's overlaps of those connections, you know. um And I'm very curious in your experience, what does a term like community mean to you?
00:44:30
Speaker
And and to build on that a little further, How do you try to sort of foster that idea of community for yourself? um Well, I will start with the fostering piece because it's really important to me.
00:44:45
Speaker
um And that's through volunteering. ah I get connected to people who I wouldn't necessarily otherwise meet and in my community and in my area. And I like to volunteer quite honestly where I can start talking with the homeless um and help them feel human.
00:45:04
Speaker
because I think that's important. um I've heard many times in life that they don't get looked at or when they somebody looks in their direction, they get looked through rather than being treated as if they're human.
00:45:19
Speaker
um And so if I can take an afternoon or a couple hours and help them feel like they are important, that helps me feel better about myself.
00:45:31
Speaker
And I know that I've helped their day as well. Yes. And as part of that, i am improving my community. I am helping people feel important and involved and connected um and that others care about them.
00:45:50
Speaker
And I think that's important for everyone.
00:45:55
Speaker
It's... You know, we were joking a little bit about it before recording, but it's like, you know, this is we're we're recording this a couple days after, you know, what I'm internally calling MLK Day or also ah ah David Lynch's birthday. That that was actually what was far more important to me on January 20th was that it was David Lynch's birthday. So, you know, I participated in the meditation that everyone did at noon.
00:46:18
Speaker
But yeah. You know, something else happened that day, too. And and what this has done over the last couple of months for me has that it's really yeah it's really activated my participation in my local community, you know, and I've really started...
00:46:35
Speaker
You know, i've I've made a point to meet everyone on my floor in my apartment and, and you know, really just start checking in with the people who traditionally in our society, you don't really, you know, and it's strange. It's like this guy, you know, we basically share a door and I haven't spoken to him in three years, you know, and and so I've been really working on that baseline community building, you know. Mm-hmm. And I'm curious, you know, it sounded to me like you are doing this in a way, you know, but but I'm curious what other kind of um ah elements like that are are are you trying to kind of foster within your community?
00:47:11
Speaker
If anything, and that's not a challenge, that's not trying to be, I'm not, we're not trying to do like, you know, participation Olympics here, right? you know
00:47:19
Speaker
my My big involvement, I live in ah in a similar structure building, so but I've also lived here for about 10 years. So i know I know all my floor mates is what I will call them. Yeah, yeah. You know, taking the dog out for a walk and making sure I talk to people is really doing that daily. First off, for my health, for my dog's health, but also getting to meet people and have those conversations.
00:47:43
Speaker
um Yeah, I... And then friends through work. um So really, that's kind of how I get involved. Yeah. And get out there.
00:47:54
Speaker
um i also, this is me. I'm a little chatterbox. I like to talk to people wherever i go. Yeah. um So, yeah, I have those those small talk conversations that sometimes turn into more, you know. Yeah.
00:48:09
Speaker
I mean, that's a beautiful, that's a magic quality. and And the world needs you. You know, the the world needs more of you. Because I do know, I know for myself, when when when I meet people like that on the street, those are magic moments.
00:48:20
Speaker
You know, it you contain your whole day around, you know. and And that is always my intention. yeah And some people you can tell immediately, they're they're not into it.
00:48:31
Speaker
And it's their loss, you know. right but Well, thank you. But either which way, maybe they just need a moment to their day. And this is their moment. So that's fine.
00:48:41
Speaker
So yeah, the the the real question of, you know, the question of community and and and sort of maintaining your place in community. um i think I think one thing for me is that it's going to be really important for us to recognize that community doesn't mean everyone's always in agreement, right?
Handling Conflict in Communities
00:48:56
Speaker
ah But we are all still valid and we all do still, you know, deserve a place within community. um And I mean, you know, if anything, I i can't up but feel like a lot of these, you know, right-wing pushing nationalist movements are, are,
00:49:13
Speaker
a lot of it is rooted in people looking for community. It's dispossessed people. people who were feeling isolated, who found something to belong to, you know? um And so I'm curious, you know, how do you go about navigating, building these kind of communal ah connections with people you may be in conflict with?
00:49:35
Speaker
So I come from a family that has many different opposing opinions. Mm-hmm. and um definitely on multiple sides of the political atmosphere.
00:49:48
Speaker
um so
00:49:53
Speaker
The best I can say this part is that it's been part of my life the whole time. um And so trying to find that understanding,
00:50:06
Speaker
again, most people don't wanna be bad people. There are some out there, I understand that, but most people don't. They want that sense of community. They wanna feel understood and seen and heard just as much as I do, or you do.
00:50:22
Speaker
um So how do we get to the root of what they need? but you know Again, the curiosity,
00:50:34
Speaker
getting to that very core piece we probably match on on what we want. It's the, how we get there, where we differ.
00:50:49
Speaker
And so maybe we can find once we talk to each other, cause we need to do that. And I'm amongst that because sometimes my family is ah bit much for me.
00:51:02
Speaker
I love them. They're, they are wonderful people, but they can get a little much. So, sure um, having the, you know, let's have that conversation. Okay. We agree that this is what we want to get to.
00:51:15
Speaker
Can we talk about how we get there? That works for me and you. I guess it comes back to that. Yeah. I was going to say i guess it comes back to that patience thing, right? Yes. And it does not happen in one conversation.
00:51:29
Speaker
ah yeah that That does remind me of a, you know, I, a few years ago I took a couple, um ah they were anti-racism training programs, but they were, they were, you know, rooted in, in a few different kind of interpersonal connections. And it was, it was the reminder that when you meet somebody who's like vastly different than you politically, the objective of one conversation isn't to get them to go from right wing all the way left wing.
00:51:56
Speaker
It's just to like, push the needle a little further along, just get them a little bit along, you know, and just incrementally grow it. Right. And, and I think, you know, I was just having this conversation the other day where, ah you know,
00:52:11
Speaker
problem that's high seed in the world right now, or a problem, let's call it, is that incrementalism as a sort of like behavior is kind of the only way to make anything stick, you know, is just little beats and little bits and little steps.
00:52:25
Speaker
But we're now at a stage where everything is too far gone and it needs to be fixed yesterday, you know, and so we don't have the space or it feels like we don't have the space for incrementalism.
00:52:36
Speaker
Right. Right. um And I'm curious how what you would recommend in terms of like, how do you balance those those those anxieties, you know?
00:52:45
Speaker
Sorry, it how do I balance the how do you sort of how do you balance those worries of that sort of like the the fact that the world's on fire, but the only really way to fix it is like kind of slowing down in a way, right?
00:52:59
Speaker
um i love I love the slowing down piece because that's really important. And it's it's not it starts with you because you are, of course, the only person that you can control. You can't control what anybody else does.
00:53:15
Speaker
But through your actions and through how you approach people and situations, um ideally with curiosity and wanting to get to know them more, even if you don't agree with them,
00:53:28
Speaker
That's always important. Um, you can often find those ways to maybe not like somebody, but find a, a piece where you agree just that, that moment, or you can look at them and hear what they are saying and realize that what they are, the perspective they are bringing is one that you had not considered.
00:54:00
Speaker
And it opens your eyes a little bit more to what is out there. Yeah.
Maintaining Hope and Resilience
00:54:05
Speaker
Curiosity, I guess. Right. It's such a big thing that I feel like but let's, let's hit that nail one more time. Curiosity. That's it's a good go-to answer. I really like it. Um,
00:54:22
Speaker
ah So I just have my last kind my last, my last, ah the the last of the tentpoles is, ah i'm I'm watching the time, but i we're we're going to start the wind down here. But, you know, yeah we've been touching it already. You know, things look pretty bleak.
00:54:36
Speaker
And yet at the same time, too, from my perspective, I find myself leaning into a little bit of like a, someone described it the other day as like a little bit of like a delusional hope, you know, um that despite the fact that everything looks so bleak, I do still hold a type of hope for the future.
00:54:55
Speaker
And, and it might be, I've been over-therapized, I don't know, but I just, I have to trust that Despite the fact that bad things will come, good things will come, because that's just how the world works.
00:55:07
Speaker
it's they It can't always be bad. It can't always be good. it's just Things come and go, right? And I'm curious, from your perspective, ah with the state of everything, what are what's something that you're holding on to these days? Or what is something that's bringing you hope to kind of keep going?
00:55:23
Speaker
um ah A few different things. ah To pull out a cliche, I have made it through every bad day so far in life. So I have a high success rate to make it make it through the next one. says yup yup I will start there.
00:55:37
Speaker
i love that. yeah um The other thing is I initially identified myself as a pharmacist. And um I fully recognize that the health care system in the United States needs a lot of work.
00:55:52
Speaker
And I know how good I am at my job. And I know that I put in that work every single day. I know the people that i work with put in that work every single day. We want to take care of our patients.
00:56:05
Speaker
So the hope that I have is all around me and I see it. I love that. it's Isn't it so nice when you have a team around you that you're like, yeah, we can do this, right? Yeah.
00:56:17
Speaker
I mean, that's a community right there, isn't it? Right. That's, you know, we're just, yeah. Um,
00:56:23
Speaker
Christine, you're amazing. This has just been such a pleasure. i only have one last little little kind of wrap-up question for you, but i just before I get to that, i just I really want to say it's been an absolute pleasure talking with you, and I'm i'm so glad you you reached out to to come on, and and and I'm so glad we made this work because I just...
00:56:41
Speaker
Yeah, I've had an absolute blast chatting with you. and I have as well. i Thank you so much for having me on. um you know, it's it's one of those fortuitous moments. It took us a ah few months to get here, but we got here.
00:56:56
Speaker
and That's what counts, right? Patience. Right, you know yes. um um before Before we get to ah the last question, um where can listeners find you? Where would you like to point point listeners towards?
00:57:10
Speaker
I am on social media. You can find me on LinkedIn and Instagram. I have a Facebook page. i I also have a website. It's authorccooper.com. um you can, yeah, it's it's got contact info and everything on there. So yeah. Awesome. Awesome. And I will, I will have all those links in the show notes for you. So listeners, be sure to go check that out by your book, uh, uh, uh, finding value. There's a much longer under, under title to that. I was just keeping it, I was keeping it punchy, but, uh, but what's the full title again?
00:57:40
Speaker
So it's called finding value, a reforming mean girls guide for creating more meaningful connections. I love it. I love it. And links for that will be in the show notes as well. ah Christine, I have just one last question. I always love to ah leave listeners on a little actionable step, something that they can try doing ah this week.
00:58:00
Speaker
um And so I'm curious, what's one thing you would recommend listeners do to be a more effective friend, either to themselves or to their community? So at the very beginning, I'll tie this i'll tie this all the way back.
00:58:14
Speaker
I talked about how gossip was a big thing in my life for a while. um And one of the ways i have learned to be able to step away from that is um gossip tends to be a lot of complaining about things. So I allow myself to complain about something twice, and then I either have to do something about it or I have to let it go.
00:58:40
Speaker
And if I continue complaining about it, it does turn into gossiping and I become the negative part of my life versus whatever I'm complaining about.
00:58:51
Speaker
Yeah. I like that one a lot. I like that one a lot. So it's, yeah, do it, do something about it or let it go. i love that.
00:59:03
Speaker
Um, Oh my God, you've just opened a whole brand new can worms I want to talk about, but we're going to we'll We'll have a part two down the road. We'll we'll check in in a little bit, you know, but but one more time, Dr. Christine Cooper, thank you so much. This has been just such a joy and I hope you have a wonderful evening.
00:59:21
Speaker
Well, hope you do too. Thank you.
00:59:38
Speaker
And that's it. Huge thanks to my guest, Dr. Christine Cooper, for sharing her stories and her advice. It was just such a pleasure chatting with her. And if Christine's story resonates with you, please make sure to check out her book, Finding Value, A Reforming Mean Girls Guide for Creating More Meaningful Connections.
00:59:57
Speaker
All the links to that are in the show notes, so be sure to check that out. If you want more friendless content, don't forget to subscribe to the Substack. It's a monthly update with behind-the-scenes notes, bonus reflections, all kinds of other goodies.
01:00:10
Speaker
It's completely free, so be sure to sign up and don't miss an update. But I'm going to wrap this up here because I have no other news for you this week. So let's just leave it where it is.
01:00:21
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening. And I hope to catch back here next week. But hey, let's not worry about that right now because that is then and this is now. So for now, I'll just say I love you and I wish you well.
01:00:34
Speaker
Fun and safety, sweet peas.
01:01:02
Speaker
Thank you.