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S3 E27 Who?! East Meets West: Holistic Fertility Support with Nicole Lange
62 Plays1 month ago
Summary:
What does it look like to care for your whole self during the fertility journey—not just your body, but your heart and mind too?
In this episode, Whitney sits down with Nicole Lange, a licensed acupuncturist and holistic fertility educator, to explore how slowing down, tuning in, and embracing both Eastern and Western wisdom can make a powerful impact. Nicole shares her personal path to acupuncture, the connection between stress and fertility, and simple, supportive practices you can start using today.
Whether you're an intended parent, egg donor, surrogate, or supporting someone you love, this conversation is full of encouragement, insight, and grounded guidance to help you feel more connected to your body and your journey.
Takeaways:
- Acupuncture is evidence-based and can support fertility treatments.
- Nicole Lange's journey to acupuncture was influenced by personal trauma and a desire for holistic care.
- Depth over volume in patient care emphasizes quality interactions with patients.
- Acupuncture can help regulate immune function and improve blood flow to the uterus.
- Integrating acupuncture with Western medicine can enhance fertility treatments but only if you feel comfortable.
- Mental health is crucial in the fertility journey and should be prioritized.
- DIY practices like acupressure can support fertility at home.
- True holistic care considers the whole person, not just their reproductive system.
Links
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Nicole Lang and Acupuncture
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi everyone. On today's episode, I'm joined by Nicole Lang, a licensed acupuncturist and holistic fertility educator who brings grounded, nurturing perspective to the journey of family building.
00:00:12
Speaker
Nicole invites us to slow down, tune into our bodies and care for our whole selves, physically, mentally, and emotionally.
Emotional Healing and Fertility Roles
00:00:21
Speaker
She shares how her own path letter to acupuncture and why she's such a strong advocate for blending Eastern and Western approaches to support fertility.
00:00:30
Speaker
We talk about the emotional layers of healing, the impact of stress on the body and simple practical ways to feel more balanced and supported. whether you're the one getting the IVF shots or walking ah alongside someone who is.
00:00:44
Speaker
Whether you're an intended parent, egg donor, surrogate, or simply curious about holistic fertility, Nicole's insight will leave you feeling more connected, more informed, and more empowered in your journey.
00:00:58
Speaker
Enjoy.
Whitney Hall on Surrogacy
00:01:00
Speaker
Me, you, and who? Who knew it would take more than two people to have a baby? In a world where infertility is no longer a taboo topic, this podcast will take you through all of the different aspects of surrogacy and egg donation through the lens of many who walk this journey in different ways.
00:01:20
Speaker
My name is Whitney Hall, and I am a two-time surrogate now turned surrogacy coordinator for egg donor and surrogate solutions. the very agency I used when I chose to carry for two amazing families.
00:01:33
Speaker
With this podcast, it is our goal to help guide and support you as you learn about what it takes to grow a family in an alternative way, as well as hear inspiring and beautiful stories of how this path has changed lives forever. We can't wait for you to hear about just one more way happy families are created every day.
Scientific Role of Acupuncture in Fertility
00:01:56
Speaker
Well, Nicole, thank you so much for being here. so excited because acupuncture, i think, is one of those, I feel like whenever you you Google or you Pinterest or you do any sort of research, I think all of those, you know, kind of fun things that like, here, eat more pineapple or drink pomegranate.
00:02:14
Speaker
And then it says acupuncture. And, you know, I think it's one of those things that like pops up. And a lot of people say it, but they don't necessarily know a whole lot about or, you know,
00:02:26
Speaker
but just all of those things. So I am just so excited to talk to you and just hear more about, you know, just what acupuncture can do when it comes to, you know, fertility. But before we get there, i just like,
00:02:40
Speaker
like Tell us who you are. Let's just try to, yeah, let's find out your story. So please, Nicole, go for it. Well, first of all, I'm very excited to be here too. And I'm excited to be talking about one of the actual evidence-based things on that list because the pineapple core And the magic socks and all of that. we can talk about that. It's so sweet. and it And it does have a place actually in in holistic kind of medicine, but it's not scientific. It's more rituals and community and also really fantastic ripples that are
00:03:13
Speaker
real and and do things in the body. But acupuncture is very evidence-based and I am a very strange acupuncturist because my foundation is in science.
00:03:23
Speaker
yeah And so I, you know, my first book when I was growing up was how Louis Pasteur invented the vaccine for rabies. That was my first favorite book. i a some Some people will know it of a certain age group and they're like, I had that.
00:03:39
Speaker
um Those are my people. I know I listened to your episode with Jordan, and she just talked about how much she came to egg donation being a science nerd. Absolutely. I was going to you were a self-described giant science nerd. Oh, huge.
00:03:54
Speaker
You actually said you were on a career path towards just genetics. Genetics. ah So I wanted to, I mean, i grew up in the age of Jurassic Park and I was like, yes, dr I'm going to do genetics.
00:04:07
Speaker
Got accepted to a fancy school. I was AP everything science. And and then this upheaval in my own life happened and it led me to question everything.
Transition to Holistic Medicine
00:04:20
Speaker
And and that upheaval was in the form of lack of control and everything that I thought I knew and everything that I thought you know you behave this way and you have this certain sort of life which really relates a lot to how people feel going through fertility but for me it was a sexual assault and a suicide attempt because it really shook who I thought I was and what it meant about me um and so I had this really hard
00:04:48
Speaker
turning upside down and Western medicine saved my life. It was all my family knew. It's all I knew. it was amazing. i was in the ICU and and I got stable and I got all these amazing piecemeal treatments like Western medicine can do for yeah different bits and parts of me.
00:05:06
Speaker
But I got to this point kind of in my mid twenties where I had gotten as far as I could go there. didn't, i didn't feel as good as I wanted to feel and so I was like hmm what's sciencey but maybe goes somewhere beyond what I know and I learned that Chinese medicine is a master's degree and the the academic nerd in me was like okay and then I was like a third of it is Western medicine and I was like okay and then it's like cadaver lab
00:05:38
Speaker
all right, i think this is for me.
00:05:42
Speaker
So I showed up and literally all the people in my, in my class were like, I was wild harvesting herbs in India and I've been helping deliver babies and I'm doing all, I've done holistic medicine my entire existence. And I was like, I have Doritos in my lunch.
00:05:57
Speaker
and I'm here for the cadavers.
00:06:03
Speaker
I love it though. I mean, I really, because I think we, you know, I think you're the general kind of, you know, thought whenever people are like traditional Chinese medicine is this whole, like, let me go harvest things. Let me, you know, wear my boho skirts and, you know, and and whatnot. And there's this kind of this image of it.
00:06:20
Speaker
And I love that you were like, no, no, no, like, yes, that's, you know, sure. of that, but there is, is science behind this. And I love that you it's not one or the other, it's bringing them all together. And in your case, I love that you honor, you know, how Western medicine saved you up to a point. And instead of accepting where you were, you wanted to go beyond that.
00:06:45
Speaker
Yes. And it made me a weird acupuncture student and a really weird acupuncturist because I, there's this polarization in so many things right now, but including in fertility medicine where it's like, pick, are you, are you natural? Are you holistic? Or
Patient-Centered Care in Fertility
00:07:01
Speaker
are you doing treatments? Or do you want to fix this with seed cycling?
00:07:05
Speaker
Spoiler alert. Don't do that one. It's not so evidence-based. or are you going to do this birth control pill, which is unnatural? And it's just so unhelpful and uncentered on the patient experience, on the person at the center of it who just wants to feel better and feel whole and feel seen and use all the tools.
00:07:28
Speaker
And so I love being this kind of acupuncturist that can marry This traditional tried and true modality that sometimes we don't really understand fully, even scientifically, with what we do know of the modern research, with the very science-heavy fertility treatments. And that's all I do for 18 years. ive Because of my experience, I really felt drawn to women's health and mental health.
00:07:53
Speaker
Yeah. And so I did a ah lot of extra studies on that. I launched my practice and I said, this is all I'm going to see. And that's all I've done for 18 years. And it very quickly turned into a lot of fertility work because it's women's health and trauma and a lot grief. And so it's such an honor.
00:08:11
Speaker
Oh, I love that. I love that. One of the things that i i love that you mentioned it is um it's on your website. You mentioned the phrase depth over volume when it comes. Mm patient care. Can you kind of just go further in what you mean by that?
00:08:28
Speaker
Yeah, so again, weird acupuncturist, but when I started in the student clinic, everyone was like, this is so slow. We need to see more patients. And so many people are just, you know, you do your intake, they read it, they make their Chinese medicine diagnosis, and then it's hop up on the table, get the points, get the food recommendations, maybe some herbs on your way, come back this many times at this part of your cycle. And and that to me was,
00:08:53
Speaker
just it was like that's still very doctor centric even though it's from this model that's supposed to be more holistic and so I was like no I want to explain when I read a person's forms what I'm seeing and why I think they have the Chinese medicine diagnosis they have, how they got it, the ways that they can influence it, the ways that they it is constitutional and that it's not something to be fixed. And so the the beauty, the nuance, and so i i see close to half the people a little bit more than half the people in the time that most people were
00:09:30
Speaker
the volume and i love creating education and I have had a wait list for almost 18 years in my practice because I think it's what people crave it's yeah what I wanted i wanted to understand okay why do I have stomach aches and anxiety and I can't sleep and my periods are horrible and 50 other things.
00:09:51
Speaker
And when I was going through to be a student, I got to see how those things interconnect and the explanations holistically. And I got to see where the Western medicine would serve me and where I could go beyond that.
Integrating TCM with IVF Treatments
00:10:03
Speaker
And so that's really my goal in creating all the content and doing podcasts like this is so that I can i can help more people, whether they see me or not, do these things because it shifts everything. It just makes everything so much more balanced and human.
00:10:21
Speaker
Yeah. Well, again, right. It's that whole body approach versus just, you know, let me, I have this one, you know, just side effect or this one thing that's bothering. Well, let's, let's dig further. Let's not just put a bandaid on that. Let's, let's look at it whole body.
00:10:39
Speaker
So can you walk us through a little bit about how acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine can support fertility, especially in the context of you know IVF and egg donation and surrogacy.
00:10:54
Speaker
Yeah. So we have this fantastic moment in Chinese medicine right now where we're looking at all these reductionistic imaging techniques and tests and things, and we can see things like certain acupuncture points have been linked to regulating immune function and certain aspects of the specific immune, um the different kinds of cells. So talk about recurrent miscarriage and things like that.
00:11:19
Speaker
We can look at um certain acupuncture points are associated with generating, stimulating mesenchymal stem cell generation, which is the kind of stem cells that adults can still make from their bone marrow.
00:11:31
Speaker
And so we're looking at things like, plasma, stem cell, uterine washes and things that are being done experimentally and seeing how acupuncture can kind of mimic that in a more natural, accessible way to people. We can look at Doppler studies of the artery index, the blood flow, the pulsatility index is called to the uterus for not only supporting implantation but building a really healthy placenta with lots of vasculature, less risk of preeclampsia, intrauterine growth restriction, stuff like that. so
00:12:06
Speaker
So acupuncture does have really cool science and research that can be very specifically applied to different concerns, different things that we're thinking about.
00:12:16
Speaker
Even something as simple as for the day of embryo transfer, there's ah there's a combination of two points that they've been studied to relax the cervix. And I know this from studies where doctors who are performing DNCs were asked to compare this combination of points with numbing the cervix.
00:12:36
Speaker
And the doctor said it was easier to get through the cervix with this combination of acupuncture points versus the lidocaine. And they compared it to other sets of points. And then they also asked the patient, the person who's having the procedure, like how uncomfortable or comfortable, how much discomfort did they have after the procedure? And it was different and improved.
00:12:55
Speaker
So something like making sure the a RE can get the catheter through the cervix with less cramping and less um sort of gunk technical term in the catheter.
00:13:07
Speaker
So there's less pressure on the embryo. So there's really cool specific things that you can do. And then there's all this history of connecting the dots and saying, okay, but you're more than a
Balancing Eastern and Western Practices
00:13:19
Speaker
uterus. You're more than, ah ah you know, the conditions that where we put an embryo and whether that's with the surrogate or with someone using donor eggs, it's so important to say, okay, are you feeling,
00:13:32
Speaker
really amped up because you're excited to be a surrogate. I listened to your episode and like the joy that comes through and the the belief in one's body and the and the joy, right? But like, I didn't sleep last night and I'm all amped up and I'm coursing with adrenaline, right?
00:13:47
Speaker
That's a very different thing than like, I'm doing donor egg. I've exhausted this process with my own eggs. And so I'm feeling very guarded and there's some grief here.
00:13:58
Speaker
And so we want to add those kinds of things to the treatments, whether it's day of embryo transfer or the two week wait or wherever we're doing it. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So is it almost, I mean, I, I feel like it's kind of like the, the big word, but it sounds like you're really, you're not only are you addressing just the biology of what your, you know, uterus is being asked to do.
00:14:22
Speaker
but it also almost sounds like you're kind of like testing those cortisol levels and looking at, again, just that whole body aspect of it. Yes. And, and so much of,
00:14:34
Speaker
kind of that, you know, when you alluded to the, I'm looking at Google and what should I add, right? yeah there's ah There's a slippery slope here because sometimes any of those things that you listed can be done in a way where it's kind of what I call clenchy, which is fight or flight and it's releasing cortisol and and that's competing for receptors with the same the same receptors as like progesterone, which you're exogenously injecting and you you know you want it to register, right?
00:15:02
Speaker
so So even if you're doing all this external, very reductionistic things, if we're doing Chinese medicine in a truly holistic way, which I coined the phrase faux holism versus true holism. So faux holism is like, yeah, it's holistic, but I hate it.
00:15:18
Speaker
And I'm stressed out and it's not in my budget and I'm cramming it in and i really am stressed out about it versus like, hey, this person authentically honors my grief or my joy and excitement.
00:15:31
Speaker
And how is my digestion and is getting my cervix ready for this embryo transfer? That's true holism. I love that. i love that. So how does you you were, again, i love how much,
00:15:46
Speaker
I love how science-based all of this is. And it's not just, you know, let me just like stick the needles in and kind of give you this almost placebo effect of like pretty music. and then, you know, you're calm and quiet and look, we've done good things.
00:15:58
Speaker
Not that that's not great, but you know, I love how there is so much science behind this. How does that pair with what the RE is doing? You kind of, you alluded to, i love that you alluded to the birth control pill because I,
00:16:12
Speaker
I only did acupuncture for one of my journeys and i mentioned to the acupuncturist that I was on birth control and she got the biggest eyes and there was, I mean, I almost felt this sense of judgment and I was like, I'm a surrogate, so I will be on the birth control. This is required. Like the, what,
00:16:31
Speaker
like there That's what I've been told to do. yeah like, how do you kind of marry those two, you know, what you're, what you're doing along with what the r RE is asking and what is part of their protocol?
00:16:47
Speaker
Yeah, first of all, that is such a perfect example of faux holism. It's like, I'm going to shame you and make you feel like you should be doing it different, but also I'm supposed to be making you feel more balanced. that like That's not okay.
00:17:02
Speaker
That's what we need to see. I really i talk about taking off the like baby blinders of faux holism and being like, is this actually serving me does this feel supportive and and and we know acupuncture is more than placebo right so acupuncture outperforms placebo but placebo i could nerd we could do a whole nother show about placebo placebo is neurochemicals electrical signals and your your brain activity being in different areas and like this is this is and that's where like the socks and the ritual and the community can can be medicinal yeah
00:17:35
Speaker
But it's not the socks, it's the neurochemicals that the socks are. and And for another person, it might really stress them out. So then they're not getting that. but But like taking all of that placebo plus what we know acupuncture can do beyond placebo, and then true holism is honoring like okay I understand that absolutely a surrogate needs to down regulate and get prepared for this transfer and not have her ovaries in the mix or risk ovulating at certain certain types of cycles and so maybe it's more like oh you're feeling kind of
00:18:11
Speaker
bloated and bogged down because you just started birth control or you're feeling more tired because you're just adding these exogenous hormones and we're going to amp up as we add maybe estrogen patches and so you know we're going to follow that instead of
Creating Supportive Fertility Environments
00:18:26
Speaker
making it feel like it's a unnatural thing we're going to say then You might not always be constipated, but when you're taking all this progesterone, you have a very good chance of becoming really constipated. So let's add constipation points. There's some really great intestinal motility points.
00:18:43
Speaker
There you go. So it's about you see the constitution, you see the classic Chinese medicine, you see the modern science, and you and you marry all of that with what's specifically happening in the cycle.
00:18:57
Speaker
And all of a sudden you have, again, true holism where it's like it's not picking or one is better than the other. It's all of it. And it's all really important and beautiful and in service to like what I don't ever want to lose sight of is this is in service to people that have love in their hearts and and want to have a family and want to parent. And so a big part of what I talk about in my online courses and in my content is just thinking about the ratios of what we're doing. Like, yes, I want the cervix to be relaxed, but
00:19:31
Speaker
But I really want to create an environment where we're just making this embryo, feels the body feels safe to say yes to a pregnancy. Because so much of this process, especially on the donor egg side, has kind of gotten to where you you kind of forget or you your you get these suggestions that say that that has to go in the background until you have a baby.
00:19:57
Speaker
and so if we can bring that back and be like, no, this is really about you, if your partner, you and your partner, you on your own, you wanting to have a baby. and and that creates all these ripples and all these neurochemical things and changes and just feels nice and protects the person's mental health and quality of life and relationships too.
00:20:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Again, I really just love this emphasis that you have on that whole body that, you know, Hey, ah we're, we're going to come alongside and there are very obvious side effects to taking those hormones and doing all of those things. And let's address those. And let's also address the obvious mental health that is going through whether it is you're so excited or whether you're so nervous or, you know, whether it's both and, you know, just, just all of those things.
00:20:47
Speaker
Totally. What, what are ways that, and we we've, kind of already addressed it, but let's say, I think you did such a great job of, you know, kind of saying like, Hey, it maybe isn't always in the budget for someone and you know, or, or it could just be a, a geographical issue and there's just nothing available.
00:21:11
Speaker
What are maybe some of those other things that someone can do, whether it's different, different Chinese medicines, different, you know, we kind of alluded to the socks and the, you know, and, you know, like things like that.
00:21:29
Speaker
What are some of those other things? And, and is there harm in any of that countering what your RE is already doing? I think if it's faux holism, there's a risk, right?
00:21:41
Speaker
You know, if it's so something that's stressing a person out or making a person choose, you know, like I've had people that are like, well, my acupuncturist told me I should take these herbs during my IVF, but my a RE said absolutely not. Like that's harmful.
00:21:56
Speaker
yeah even and not to say that the herbs are technically harmful or that either person is wrong about their modality, right? We all want to do no harm. But that what we're creating in that person is this sense of, like, where's your loyalty?
00:22:12
Speaker
It's such a gross thing, you know, or, like, what you know what are you picking versus, no, I'm going to enter in wherever I can, and there's a literally a bajillion ways to be truly holistic.
Affordable Holistic Options
00:22:22
Speaker
so So there are specific things that you can put in that are – more direct proxies for acupuncture. So on my fertility freebies page, I have a whole acupressure guide that is, got a glossary on the back that's, if you're doing a transfer, here's some points for before and after. If you're constipated, if you've got a headache, here's some points.
00:22:44
Speaker
so there's ways to DIY that um I have ah one of my most popular YouTube videos is about castor oil packs those can be nice self-care rituals for pelvic circulation um there's there's electro stim acupuncture which can be somewhat mimicked by tens units and subcutaneous above the surface kind of substitutes that people can DIY I've got YouTube videos about that and talk about that So there's so many ways that a person could create something that's in the budget that fits their where they are.
00:23:17
Speaker
Sometimes they have one acupuncturist and they meet them and they just don't click for whatever reason, you know. And so um that's important to listen to. You shouldn't just be like, well, they're the only acupuncturist that can come on site to my clinic. So therefore, they're going to come and make me feel a little stressed about what i haven't done eight weeks before and say all these things that freak me out Don't do that.
00:23:40
Speaker
That's not a good one. And then like to come back to the idea of shows, so enjoyed listening to the variety of shows that you've talked ah to different people that have gone through this journey themselves and experts.
00:23:54
Speaker
So often there are these side notes that I really want to flip the script on, right? Like i I listened to an episode earlier this morning where she was talking about she's just like fourth failed IVF and she's like, I want a giant dog.
00:24:06
Speaker
You know, I just want the the great Dane to snuggle. And it's like, that feels like that's actually a truly holistic way to take your life off of hold, feel all that oxytocin, really just be like, I'm not going to wait till I have a baby and just hold my breath. I want a puppy. or Or for somebody else, it's hot yoga. Or for somebody else, it's, you know, everything in moderation and listen to your unique body. But I've had so many people, we hear these stories, right, where it's like, and then I stopped caring. And it's not if there was a button or an acupuncture point that I could do to make that happen, i would
00:24:45
Speaker
That's all I would do all day. That's not how this works. But we can say, if i if I could get closer to that place mentally, what would I do? Right? I would...
00:24:57
Speaker
I would get the dog or I would go on that trip or I would think about this job change or I would say yes to this thing. And, and that I call those main entrees truly holistically, like, and, and the IVF part should be like the, the ol a la carte, like side salad.
00:25:15
Speaker
And like, if you order only things that are reductionistic fixes, it's like you just ordered 50 baked potatoes and side salads and all you're craving is like, I'm a meat eater. Like, I just want a hamburger.
00:25:28
Speaker
and i and i and I haven't had a cocktail in a while. And maybe I want a margarita and some chips and some guac. And, like, these are things like gratitude and connection and joy and purpose and and and all these things that are big picture, truly holistic.
00:25:47
Speaker
Yeah. Equally scientific. Equally scientific. Just not in the fertility forums as much. Sure, sure. what I'm hearing you say is, you know, just, yes, we can, there's, and I think you're so right. You kind of touched on it in, in the world of IVF and in the world of, you know, especially, right.
00:26:07
Speaker
We're, we're conditioned to, if I work hard, then there's going to be ah reward after the end of that. And that's not always true. And you have a lot of intended parents that have experienced that of I've worked hard, I've done all of the things. And for some reason I'm not getting that result. And same with surrogates and same with donors and, you know, anyone that's in, you know, just this, this space and having that check back of like, hold on, take a breather.
00:26:34
Speaker
Exactly. Like you said, like, you know, let's, let's just for a minute, let's, let's be grateful that, you know, we, get the opportunity to do this or let's be, let's be thankful that we have these people in our space or, you know, let's honor the fact that we're frustrated by it. And then, and we can acknowledge that and that's okay. And like work with that. And yeah, it's, it's so important to be authentic.
00:27:00
Speaker
and like do these big things. And and I want to be very clear. It's not to say a side salad or baked potato isn't sometimes medically essential to order, but you just don't want to order 50 more of those things when you're already ordering the biggest one that is maybe medically essential, right?
Balancing Yin and Yang in Health
00:27:19
Speaker
Then we have to go back. And then how do we find the authentic thing? So it's not, it's not just this blanket.
00:27:25
Speaker
I'm grateful. I'm positive. It's, I am grateful for this amazing history of all the things that had to go into where we could extract eggs from ovaries and fertilize them and and grow them in a lab to blastocysts and and know do all the things.
00:27:45
Speaker
And it it doesn't mean that there's not a ah both ands, right? The mental health provider was just talking about the both ands, right? But it's about equal opportunity, right? You're going to spend that time, most people, especially on the intended family side where they've had all the hard knocks and the setbacks and the reasons to be sad and guarded and and not get their hopes up.
00:28:08
Speaker
So it's not about denying that, that's actually really quite harmful and it shifts a lot of things in our bodies. We want to express those things, we want to honor them, we want to make space for them, and then we want to add the sort of equal opportunity balance.
00:28:24
Speaker
So I talk about it as yin and yang, like the yin is the dark nighttime part of it and the yang is the bright sunshine part of it. And we we would never want to just have it be all night or all day.
00:28:36
Speaker
it wouldn't be natural. And so if we can say the nighttime is definitely in our hearts and in our mind and we are aware of it. And so we're going to talk about it and do therapy and journal and join support groups and all of that.
00:28:50
Speaker
But we're also going to try to like, I had a person who she had had a lot of setbacks and she got to her, um, um, multiple transfers in and she said i know that this might not last the other ones haven't but I'm just going to take my embryo to the zoo this weekend oh and I was like that's so beautiful like just ah that's an authentic joy isn't contingent on the future and isn't tied to what has happened in the past that's beautiful that's beautiful so
00:29:26
Speaker
Getting into a little bit of the nitty gritty, what would you say is kind of a typical preparation plan like for someone, you know, seeing you ahead of a transfer?
00:29:37
Speaker
Yeah. So it's if you're being truly holistic, we we want to take the research and then we want to marry it with the customization of the person. So some of the things that the research says is there's a study that says that having eight
Personalizing Fertility Treatments
00:29:50
Speaker
acupuncture treatments prior to transfer can be helpful and that doing it through egg stimulation and retrieval is more helpful than just adding it on the day of transfer alone.
00:30:03
Speaker
That said, that's not always in the budget. That's not always on the timeline where people hear about it. And so I never want somebody to feel stressed about it because there's this two other studies that I like to talk about. And I have videos on my website about the research and links to all the research and how I specifically customize it.
00:30:22
Speaker
um But there's another study that says that the best acupuncture, when they were comparing protocols with whole systems acupuncture, they called it, and and sham acupuncture.
00:30:34
Speaker
Whole systems acupuncture beat the others. And what they what they said was whole systems acupuncture was what we've been talking about, which is what fits the person's budget. What their body was actually saying, instead of this is just the protocol for ah egg stimulation, we're going to do what this person's body is also saying.
00:30:53
Speaker
And so that outperformed the the, you know, do these points eight times before you do this procedure. And then there's another study that I love. There was an RE that sent this to me when it when it got published. and She's like, Nicole, what do you think about this?
00:31:10
Speaker
The study was that ah acupuncture was harmful in this study because they had it offsite with an acupuncturist person had never met.
00:31:21
Speaker
And the conclusion of the study, if you read it was that there was enough other data that said that acupuncture was either not harmful or helpful over and over and over, that the conclusion of this particular study was that they had to conclude that it was something about how it was done and the differences in the study, and the other ones were on site or with an established care provider that they felt comfortable with.
00:31:46
Speaker
And so I was like, this is the best study of them all, because this is where I'll talk people out of, you know, oh, I've had acupuncture, I hate it, but I really want you to come and do my transfer. And it's like, maybe get a massage the night before or, you know, do that yoga class you really like or something else. So it has to be, it has to be everything.
00:32:07
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Okay. No, that makes sense. So you mentioned, you mentioned kind of the, the ideal if all these are aligning, you know, is that egg stimulation to transfer. Obviously that is not the situation when it comes to, you know, a surrogate.
00:32:24
Speaker
Um, but you, so, you know, there's, there's a different protocol with, with the surrogate. However, you are also, not only are you working as with a surrogate, but you're also kind of working for your, not for, but with intended parents as well. What's kind of that unique support that you would provide in those types of situations where it's,
00:32:43
Speaker
the surrogate that's your physical patient, but then there's also the intended parents that are part of that process too. Yeah, there's so many ways to do this and it's so sweet and so holistic. So it there's a lot of information right on day of embryo transfer doing acupuncture right before and possibly right after, hopefully on site if at all possible makes it even more effective.
00:33:07
Speaker
um And so i do I've done about a thousand transfers And when it comes to intended parents that are working with surrogates, it can look like so many different ways. So sometimes it's just like, just support the surrogate.
00:33:20
Speaker
We'll be over here doing our thing, just like thinking about you. And sometimes it's everybody in the room. Sometimes it's the intended mom in the surrogate. Sometimes it's the the intended parents getting a few points and like kind of doing things together. And so again, true holism is we're What makes this feel really special to you guys?
00:33:41
Speaker
i told you the story when we were emailing about a couple Tell this story I mean, and this is a good example of sometimes you've had this hard journey and then sometimes it's it's purely logistical. So this was a a couple that was working with the surrogate because there were two intended dads and they had really hit it off with their surrogate and they had gotten to the point where they knew that she had a celebrity crush.
00:34:07
Speaker
and they And they were like, you're going to be thinking about this guy and you're going to be, you know, and just kind of having a fun time with it And so as I was talking to them all and and making sure they all were having the space to tell me what felt important for the day to feel the most supportive for them and trying to kind of weave it together.
00:34:28
Speaker
when I was talking to the dads, they were like, Nicole, is this crazy? We got a life-size cutout of her celebrity crush. oh my And we're trying to figure out like where this could be a part of this day.
00:34:43
Speaker
And I was like, ah this is my address. Drop it off at my house. I will get there early and have it in the transfer, in the acupuncture room at the IVF clinic.
00:34:55
Speaker
And so I come hauling this life-size cutout in, and the the staff at the IVF clinic were just so fun with it they were taking selfies course it made this this these two intended dads in this surrogate like just shine that day they walked in first and saw it and they and then they were waiting for their surrogate and she literally like fell down to her knees laughing as she walked in and and I was like Cancel the acupuncture. My job here is done.
00:35:27
Speaker
Like and we did the acupuncture and they've worked together for for two kiddos and have this amazing relationship. Like you feature so often on your show.
00:35:39
Speaker
um But that I was like, that's such a, you'll never read, bring a giant character cut out to your transfer. Or watch goat videos or you know look at pictures of your biological kiddos that make you feel warm and fuzzy or whatever. But there's so many ways.
00:35:59
Speaker
to make the surrogate feel that safety and joy and connection and, and the same. So if, if the intended parents aren't there creating that space for them to feel their authentic feelings and it's okay to feel guarded, you're not going to jinx anything. Like this is a big thing to let go of this control and also a really hopeful, amazing thing.
Skepticism and Bridging Medical Practices
00:36:21
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I love that so much. Absolutely hilarious. But you're so right. You know, again, it's, it really is that we, we, I i feel like I say that nauseam, but every journey is so different and so unique and is, but it's your journey. And I, again, I just love your approach of just that holistic, let's look at the whole scenario. Let's look at all of the pieces and then let's honor each of those things.
00:36:51
Speaker
You, you once mentioned, you know, I know right? Like there was, there's all this skepticism when it comes to, you know, just acupuncture and, and things of those things.
00:37:03
Speaker
What, what would you maybe say to someone listening who, who might feel the same and kind of what, how would you want to bridge that gap between that Western medicine and Eastern medicine?
00:37:14
Speaker
That's such a good question. And I, i first of all, I would never feel like if a person is so skeptical that it's, not a curiosity, then I would say that's okay.
00:37:28
Speaker
That's where you're at. You don't have to do this. But if a person is curious, I often will say, you know, here's here's some information. And I like to share how it bridges, it it fills things that Western medicine isn't so great at and vice versa. So it's yeah again about being more complete. So I think what Western medicine is really great at is reductionistic. Like I say, it's sort of like your whatever mainstream Western kind of medicine provider you're going to, it's like your main concern is a microscope slide.
00:38:02
Speaker
And they have this powerful microscope that is their training and the history of that medicine and their experience. And they're going to put it on and they're going to be like, okay, let's look at your progesterone levels. Let's look at your antral follicle count. Let's look at all these things, your RE. But your RE isn't going to look at your digestive stuff. You have to go to a different microscope slide with a different provider with a different microscope, right? so So when there's something on the microscope that can be found and worked on and improved and treated, Western medicine shines.
00:38:34
Speaker
And we want to embrace that and celebrate that. And then where it's not so good is this like we looked at your microscope. It's there's we can't really see anything obvious or we can see something, but we don't really know what to do with that yet.
00:38:49
Speaker
Like we don't have the treatment. We're not sure what's evidence based. And so that can be where Chinese medicine or holistic medicine can start to fill in those things where it's now this is a medicine that is observation based and experiential.
00:39:04
Speaker
And it's about so I say that same main concern is like a piece of a puzzle. And I want to look at the lobes and the colors, right? You're not going to just blindly put magically get the puzzle piece right if you don't examine it.
00:39:17
Speaker
yeah But I need to get more and more pieces of the puzzle. So what's your sleep like? What's your relationship like? What's your mood like? What's your periods like? Whatever is relevant. And then I put those all together and I can see things that are like, oh, it's this pattern of high threat or it's this pattern of not quite having enough resources in this particular way that we can work on conserving and building up and things like that. so So when you put them together, you have a more complete way of working from different angles and the best shot at not only the best pregnancy test outcomes, but truly having the best outcomes ongoing for your quality of life, your mental health, being set up to be a parent.
Pandemic Insights and Acupuncture Benefits
00:40:01
Speaker
being set up for all the unknowns and lack of control that will continue. I have a whole blog post on my on my um website that is when should I come in for acupuncture? i need to I need to feature it differently, but it goes over all these links in science. Like here's what we can look at on an fMRI. Here's what we can see when we do look at brain wave pattern changes. Here's what we can look at on ultrasound studies of the uterine blood flow. so There's, it's really cool to talk about that.
00:40:31
Speaker
Oh, for sure. yeah ah Yeah. You know, we'll, we'll science nerding you get out for sure. Yeah, absolutely. What, so when for you, I mean, again, I know you had just your own personal experience, but when for you was, can you maybe just share like a moment where you were just like, okay, this stuff really works.
00:40:51
Speaker
Like it really, I can read article after article, but yeah, were you kind of like, no, this stuff really works. this This is embarrassing to say.
00:41:02
Speaker
I've been doing this for 18 years, and and I think up until COVID, i was like, acupuncture is great, but there's a lot of different ways to do that. and it's the ideas and the education, like the ideas and education, the framework.
00:41:18
Speaker
that is so important and then and then COVID came and I and I shut down and I launched my online program that I had been putting together for five years the timing worked out really well for that and and I was like okay this this this program that's all the ideas and anyone whether they're getting acupuncture or not can get it and if they don't have to go through me I'm not going to be this bottleneck and then I came back from COVID and everybody was extra in fight or flight mode And I started doing, i started doing acupuncture and I was like, oh shoot.
00:41:53
Speaker
Acupuncture is really special because it, it does. And I mean, this is going to be sciencey still, but it,
00:42:04
Speaker
I was just witnessing how, whether you understand the science or not, and this is what I tell people on first visits, is I'm going to leave the room and you're going to be laying there with sharp, pokey things in your body that I just stuck in your body.
00:42:18
Speaker
That doesn't sound relaxing at all. and I'm now going to leave you in this moment of the level of stimulation and screens and things that we have. I'm going to leave you for, in my clinic, it's 30 minutes. A lot of times it's 20 minutes or whatever.
00:42:32
Speaker
And you're going to have a call button to call me if you need me, but you're just going to be here for 30 minutes without anything else besides these needles in your body. And you can just see like, mm-mm, this isn't...
00:42:44
Speaker
I am not going to enjoy this. It's going to be fun. No, it feels deserving. You're like,
00:42:54
Speaker
I like, I'm going to lose my mind in my own bed. I'm just like racing thoughts. Right, right. and like And that's what you would expect, right? Like you just did something sharp and you're pinned down literally and you can't do anything. And oh my God.
00:43:13
Speaker
i And then, and this is where it's important. If it is truly holistic and nervous system based kind of trauma informed acupuncture, because not all acupuncture is that style, but if it is that things happen, i say, I feel like a little bit like wizardy.
00:43:31
Speaker
know I know the science, but it still feels like I'm a wizard. I will come back in 30 minutes and people will be like, I have never relaxed that deeply in my life. I didn't know I was capable.
00:43:44
Speaker
That was not 30 minutes. Was that like 10 minutes? Are you sure? And I'll be like, actually it was 35. And over and over since COVID especially, i just, it's like, oh, that, where else can you do that? Like I'm going to make more than a half an hour feel like a blip while you feel like I say it's like I shut all the tabs and restart your computer for your nervous system.
Daily Practices for Fertility Enhancement
00:44:08
Speaker
It's wizardry. It's science. But it feels like wizardry.
00:44:14
Speaker
So that's where, I mean, five years ago in my 18 year career was I like, oh no, acupuncture is very specifically cool in this way. right Right. Oh my gosh. I love it.
00:44:25
Speaker
No, but I mean, yes, you can be in something for so long and I love that it's still kind of, you get to have those aha moments of like, oh no, no, no, no. This is like, this is pretty fantastic. And to kind of instantly see that result has got to just be amazing. I mean, it feels amazing.
00:44:41
Speaker
It's, it shocks me every time. like i do it all day, you know, three days a week. And I am just like, And you can, so I mean, the person can just be in a blind panic. Like i just went in for my lining check. I have fluid in my uterus. My lining is only a five. They want it to be over a seven or eight.
00:45:00
Speaker
ah And, and I just think, okay, well, we're going to reset the nervous system and they got to wait till their next lining check to see if they're going to get the go ahead, if things are going to change with the protocol tweaks or not.
00:45:11
Speaker
And I come back and that person is like, Oh, totally good. and it And I'm like, Oh, get out the way.
00:45:26
Speaker
for sure. Oh, that's but I mean, yeah, that's wizardry. That's magical. It's nice.
00:45:33
Speaker
so Both and. No, that's perfect. What, and we've kind of talked about it and, you know, or we, I shouldn't say we kind of, we have talked about it, but just from a, ah you know, for, for the people who love those hands-on things, right? Like we, we always, we always talk about the socks and the pineapples and the pomegranates and all of that.
00:45:51
Speaker
What are maybe just some small everyday things that people can do for their fertility from that, TCM, traditional Chinese medicine, you know, perspective, even if they aren't doing acupuncture?
00:46:09
Speaker
oh Okay. I love, okay, so we're going to marry acupuncture, acupressure with some nervous system reset.
00:46:19
Speaker
So there's a point, I don't have a microphone here today, so there's a point right on the sternum, on the midline of the sternum, that stimulates the vagus nerve bundle. This is the nerves that tell your body to go into rest, digest, and reproduce.
00:46:33
Speaker
And so you can, if you like, sort of pressure. Your eyes do this, too. If you put a weighted eye pillow on, you can put something weighted on your chest and lay and do a meditation there and see if it feels any different than just trying to follow the meditation without that.
00:46:49
Speaker
either eye or chest stimulation. And then what I like is in Chinese medicine, there's always this idea of two things really mattering. It's do you have enough and is what you have available and in circulation, right? So you can you can get into like, what are we talking about when we're talking about enough, but it doesn't really matter at this level.
00:47:12
Speaker
And so so do you have enough and is it circulating? Is it actually available and or is it stuck in fight-or-flight? So just by stimulating and telling your body, okay get it back into circulation That's going to be an instant way to improve the resources that your body's feeling And then if you feel like you're the kind of person that's like i my intuition is I don't have enough like I'm feeling tired I'm feeling depleted, I'm feeling worn down.
00:47:41
Speaker
The pressure idea is really nice on this. So like laying there still kind of giving yourself space to just conserve and maybe listening to a meditation or just doing some breath work with that pressure.
00:47:55
Speaker
But if you're the type of person, which oftentimes my patients are at least 50% or more of this, they're like, I'm pretty well resourced, but I'm really in the c clenchy, what else can I do? Then we can add a sort of dissipating stimulation to this. So then we might just take our fingertips and and don't want to make noise but just tap and tap out into the intercostal spaces so the spaces between the ribs and we can you know just do some movement and some percussion to kind of create that little like vibrational movement okay really doing that so depending on what and it could be the same person but different day right I just got my period i'm really tired I'm losing blood
00:48:41
Speaker
pressure, I'm, ah you know, waiting to find out if my surrogate is going to get a positive test or not, I'm feeling like I'm crawling out of my skin, then you're tapping.
00:48:52
Speaker
And so you can just do that subtle, subtle kind of difference. Yeah, no, that's so that's so super helpful. And I love how specific and I feel like that's just for life in general, though even if you, you know, aren't a surrogate or an intended parent.
00:49:06
Speaker
I feel like and having something like that. yeah And that's just I love talking about small and cumulative, like your scales of freak out and imbalance.
00:49:20
Speaker
mostly there's some really heavy bricks like infertility on there but a lot of it is just little things adding up and so we're not going to magically take the brick of fertility struggles or recurrent loss off of that side of the scales that's that's feeling out of balance and feeling pressure but we can offset like that's a much more doable thing than just like i that's a problem that's not healthy, I don't want that, you're going to feel like you're failing. You're going to feel like you're losing that battle versus, oh, I can tap a little bit. i can do that eyeball pressure thing. I can do the how do I take my life off of hold. i can add acupuncture where it feels truly holistic and not faux holistic.
00:50:03
Speaker
I can do the ritual of making ah You know, a pineapple smoothie with the pomegranate juice and all of that if I like how it tastes. But I'm also going to say no if it gives me a mouthful of canker sores and pineapple doesn't agree with my body.
00:50:16
Speaker
Sure. You know, it's just like, OK, now we've done all these things in a really nuanced way and it helps. Yeah, no, I love that. what What would maybe your biggest piece of advice?
00:50:31
Speaker
And you've been dropping just all kinds of little treasures throughout. But what would maybe be your biggest piece of advice for anyone that is preparing for an embryo transfer, whether they're carrying themselves or they're working with a surrogate?
00:50:44
Speaker
What would be that big piece of advice you could give them? I'm going to steal this line that's been living in my brain for like the last six months that I read in an NPR article that ah this was a ah maternal mortality expert.
00:50:57
Speaker
I wish I wrote down her name, but she said we treat the baby like it's the peanut butter cup and we treat the the person carrying the baby like they're like the oily little paper shell, you know, oh and that needs to change. So everything that I've been talking about from being truly holistic to,
00:51:18
Speaker
um to switching the ratios to really thinking about what's in service. Like this is all about shifting our mindset. And this is my main mission in life. By the time I retire is I want fertility culture to shift where we're super evidence-based and we can treat this medical complex biological thing with confidence and with coverage.
00:51:44
Speaker
yes as And at the same time, We have stopped losing sight of that. like Each individual person is this beautiful peanut butter cup that deserves to not be just beaten down and trodden upon and dismissed.
00:52:03
Speaker
And that means your sleep and your relationships and your quality of life right now. And then that's what protects you when you're a parent, however you become a parent. So that's my main shift is we just have to shift the ratios And yes, IVF, surrogacy, donor egg, all of this is really big things, but we cannot make them are our main entrees all day, every day, or were it's not healthy.
Mental Health in Fertility Success
00:52:30
Speaker
Those are amazing pathways and journeys. And for the intended parent, right, it's, but but don't lose sight of your overall, I mean, we all know you want the baby, but, but don't lose sight of all of the beautiful steps in between that and honoring that.
00:52:52
Speaker
And, and getting, and, and if the beautiful steps are like, Oh my gosh, I have PTSD. Yeah. that that doesn't mean that it has to feel easy or nice, but it's you matter, your PTSD from going through this these losses or these setbacks and having to let go of this and this grief.
00:53:16
Speaker
If you are the peanut butter cup here, then that needs to be part of this treatment. And that needs to be, it's not just when we get a baby, all of a sudden we're going to put our life back together, work on it, do it now because it makes the treatments more likely to work and it protects you and you matter. Like it's, it's cliche, but it's like, I just want to like give every single person this sort of push to,
00:53:43
Speaker
to connect the dots and know that it's not just this nice fluffy add-on, it is the treatment. It is the best practice. It is the best fertility care.
00:53:55
Speaker
and it's just like so much better than what we're doing. Sure. Yeah. Again, just going back to that whole body, right? Like, yes, you as an intended parent, you know, if you exactly like what you said, work on yourself now,
00:54:10
Speaker
and and and keep honoring what your body is doing. And then for the surrogate, right? Like you're doing something amazing. Let's honor that. don Don't just think of yourself as only what your body can do. Let's honor what your whole body is doing and let's help you alongside that. Exactly like what you said, those those hormones are doing great, big, great, wonderful things, but they can also be really hard. Let's honor that.
00:54:35
Speaker
And pregnancy, that's insane. You've done it for twins twice. I can't even imagine. I have two kiddos and I i was nauseated morning, noon, and night with my son 30 weeks.
00:54:48
Speaker
You know, it's it's just like, and that, like, and this was 14 years ago. it's like, yeah, well, you're sick. If it were, if I were doing this now, I'd be like, no, tell me what medications are available and give me the pros and cons, you know, again, like this all matters because when we're not feeling totally overwhelmed by being sick for, I mean, I wept in the Trader Joe's the first time I went back and didn't want to throw up because I was sick.
00:55:15
Speaker
So excited. That's weird that it was like nobody was like, hey, that's not cool.
00:55:26
Speaker
That seems hard. think we talk about it a lot when it comes to his women's health in general, it right? It's kind of this idea of, you know, well, it just is and we should just accept that.
00:55:40
Speaker
And no, it' not it's not just it is. This is why Fertility should be treated as you know, this is, there is a, there's a health issue. this is why, like, this should not just be treated as, you know, something just off to the side. Like, this matters.
00:55:58
Speaker
im All parts of it matter. Yes, all parts of it. And it's not because mental health is separate and important. It's because mental health is enmeshed in the outcomes.
Comprehensive Fertility Journey
00:56:10
Speaker
Yeah. And interconnected. And you cannot hurt one without hurting the other. and you can help one by helping the other. And I think we just totally miss this because we're so reductionistic.
00:56:23
Speaker
And because of the way this sort of medicine in particular, you just alluded to, it's like this wild west. special subset of medicine where a lot of the things that we would never do in other kinds of biological complicated medical conditions still fly.
00:56:39
Speaker
You know, you wouldn't be like, oh, you had a heart attack? Well, if you could pay out of pocket for a stent or you could, you know, here's a glue stick, put some pictures of people with healthy hearts on this poster and try to imagine, you know, it's yeah it's it's, it's really, we have to think about what serves the women and people and, and the people that are involved around that baby, however that baby is happening. And, and then the baby piece is easier to treat easier to troubleshoot when it is medically complex.
00:57:16
Speaker
Right. Right. Absolutely. No, I think, I mean, I think that just, it sums that up just beautifully, beautifully. Well, I have one last question and you probably know where I'm going.
00:57:28
Speaker
fun And really, Nicole, again, I just, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to really break down something that can seem so woo-woo and mystical and wizardy. What is actually, you know like you said, there is science and it really does embody this idea of treating a whole person um and not just a part of it. And I love that so much. But um my last question for you is as everyone who knows me, They know that Kofi and i are very codependent.
00:58:03
Speaker
And I always love to ask the question, what filled your cup today? Literally or figuratively, what is the thing has filled your cup?
00:58:15
Speaker
I mean, honestly, doing this, i feel like from our emails, you're such a kindred spirit. I love how much you love empowering and and connecting the dots. So this is a total joy. it is also my husband's birthday.
00:58:32
Speaker
Happy birthday. And he does all my production as we were talking about before this. So celebrating the people behind the scenes that make this possible too you know the partners that toil to get the editing and to make the graphics and to be awesome partners and support us doing this work that speaks to our heart all of that fills my bucket and just taking time to be with another person that experiences that and to share with more of your audience.
00:59:05
Speaker
um I
Resources and Gratitude
00:59:06
Speaker
said this in my email. I always encourage people, look at what you think is worst case scenario. Like, oh, I wouldn't want to do surrogacy, but like learn about it because sometimes there's this clarity or this this sort of thing that you hear that you didn't know was a thing and it might be a no clarity but it sometimes is a like openness clarity and and and so I started listening to this podcast just because I want to have more ways to share with patients to explore options so so you're filling my cup in all sorts of ways and I'm grateful for the work that you're doing
00:59:42
Speaker
Well, thank you. And I'm grateful for the work that you are doing. And so for, if you will please tell our audience, for anyone who does want to continue to be more curious and and have a reliable resource to maybe start some of their own just exploratory and research, where would they go?
01:00:00
Speaker
So my website is lifehealinglife.com, which sounds redundant. It's as opposed to doctor fixing patient. It's life healing life.
01:00:11
Speaker
And if you go there, there's a tab with online education. So no matter where you are, people all over the world do courses. It takes you to my blog, to my YouTube.
01:00:22
Speaker
And I'm in the Twin Cities. So if you're in the Twin Cities and want to reach out, there's ways to explore reaching out and ways that I can personally support too but it's all at lifehealinglife.com and I've got a one-week course a 90-day course tons of freebies and one freebie in particular I mentioned the acupressure one but the freebie that's called the extra awful infertility guide it's really made it's like my it's like one of my most special freebie babies and Because it's extra unfair sometimes. Like the people that are looking at donor egg and surrogacy are often falling on the part of the bell curve that nobody wants to fall on onto, but somebody has to.
01:01:03
Speaker
And so this is the reframes and the trauma informed mental health support for like processing that part of it. So that's free and that's on the website too.
01:01:15
Speaker
I love that. I love that. Well, again, Nicole, thank you so much. And we will also have all of those um ah in our show notes as well. So for those of you who are driving and, you know, not writing things down, they'll be in the show notes as well. But again, thank you so much, Nicole. And I am just, so grateful for you. Thank you.
01:01:36
Speaker
Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Me, You, and Who. We appreciate your time and hope you enjoyed our discussion today. As we wrap, we would like to remind you of some of the ways that you can stay connected with us and be part of the Me, You, and Who podcast community.
01:01:54
Speaker
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01:02:05
Speaker
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01:02:21
Speaker
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01:02:33
Speaker
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at create a happy family. If you're interested in finding out more about creating a happy family, please visit us at www.createahappyfamily.com.
01:02:47
Speaker
Thank you again for being part of the Me, You & Who community. Your support means the world to us. I can't wait for you to join us next time as we continue to share stories and journeys of creating happy families.