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VOY: "The Cloud" (s1e5)
148 Plays1 month ago
COFFEE COFFEE COFFEE. It's the episode that gave us Captain Kathryn Janeway's most famous line *and* underscored just how much of a charlatan the show's Native American advisor wound up being. Will Bryan & Shereese give it a TREK, MARRY, or KILL?
The grades begin at (29:05).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Mission
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek Mary Kill. Coffee. Pool. Acuna. Energize.
00:00:07
Speaker
Their mission is to explore uncharted space. The Torus, do we have enough power to take the ship through the barrier? But this isn't space. Firing! It's a alive. So it seems very clear that we severely hurt an innocent life form. Now there's only one last chance at redemption. You aren't planning to take us back into the belly of this beast? I'm losing control! Prepare to enter a living nightmare on the next Star Trek Voyager. The adventure continues next Monday on UPM.
00:00:38
Speaker
Mary Kill.
00:00:44
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Shereeves. Welcome to Trek Mary Kill, a podcast that hopes to find a pot of coffee inside every episode of Star Trek. In honor of its 30th anniversary, we're looking at episodes from Star Trek Voyager's first season and we're continuing that this week with The Cloud, the sixth episode of Star Trek Voyager, premiered on UPN February 13th, 1995, teleplay by Tom Zolosi and Michael Pillar, story by Brandon Braga, directed by David Livingston.
Exploring 'The Cloud' Episode
00:01:12
Speaker
Memory Alpha describes it. With energy reserves nearly depleted, Voyager investigates possible resources inside a nebula, which is not what it seems. What Memory Alpha isn't telling us is that this nebula is alive, Charisse. Bum, bum, bum.
00:01:28
Speaker
And Voyager uses one of its photon torpedoes to blow a hole in it to escape, and then realizes, oops, we should go. But then they fix it, so it's all good. I'm so glad you're back for this, Cherise, because Voyager being your favorite show, this feels like an episode that Voyager fans could only love.
00:01:51
Speaker
Voyager is my favorite show, just and TNG is my second favorite, but that doesn't mean they always hit the mark. ah Now that's not tipping my hand listeners so you don't have to like switch over to another anything, but I just like it's just funny to think about I'm going to talk about this in a second.
Early Voyager's Identity and Character Development
00:02:08
Speaker
ah This idea that, you know, shows are in the early going are still trying to find their footing. This episode screams that so Yes, and it is, what is it? episode It's episode six, right? Six, yes, yes. yeah I didn't find anything in the research, but there's something about this episode that feels less steady than the one we just watched, Phage, which is that literally the episode previously. There was something more locked down and focused about that one. This one actually did have a point of view, and like but it was more experimental. It was a less fully formed idea.
00:02:45
Speaker
Yes, this felt like an episode that was written for Jean-Vieve Boujaud, not Kate Mulgrew as Janeway. What do you mean by that? This Janeway is like contemplative in a way that we know Janeway actually is not. This is not the Indiana farm girl tennis player competitive person. This is the contemplative French woman who's playing but who's like, I need to be bigger than life. I'm like, cable grew is bigger than life. And if you can't recognize that when you cast her or you meet her or you spend a couple of weeks working with her and you don't adjust the script to reflect who she is bringing the Janeway energy, like cable grew is on top of everything. And she's like, well, I'm not a micromanager, but I'm going to make sure you do it right. But she is already a big personality, big energy. And so this this episode is kind of written in a way that kind of shows like, well,
00:03:37
Speaker
Janeway feels very small in this moment. and She needs to step out. And it's like that seems like what they were going for in the original casting, which I don't think was a smart move. And it's like very much very demure, very sensitive woman that they had as captain. I'm like, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. No, especially when she was an older woman. It's like if you've worked your way up over your whole lifetime to get to this position, ah just being demure.
00:04:02
Speaker
and not really being kind of take charge and whatever is strange. But maybe they were just going for a different flavor. But what they got, they got this flavor. And so they this is like the the peanut butter and honey, where some people are like, oh, and some people are like, no, thank you. Yeah, that's a weird sweet. But like this, jane like Jamie, I think the modification is simply like, what's the line of me showing I care? And what's the line of like, we have a job to do? That's a better thing of like,
00:04:30
Speaker
it's she's kind of being like, I need to keep a distance. And I think she is kind of playing with like, that an exact idea. Now I'm saying it out loud, but there's something about the way Janeway that we know as the show evolves that doesn't fit here. Like whatever the side is like, am I a captain or am I their friend is actually what the answer here is. And it's just like, it's a shame for the writing that Kate Mulgrew is a very warm and friendly screen presence, where she seems like she could be your friend, but also your teacher or whatever. Your friend and your mentor, like she could flip the
Cultural Representation Challenges in Star Trek
00:05:03
Speaker
switch.
00:05:03
Speaker
She could be like, let's be buddies. And then she'd be like, OK, now it's business. And buddies is out the door. And you'd be like, yes, ma'am. And it's kind of reflected. Yeah, it's kind of reflected in that scene with Neelix in the kitchen where he's like giving her orders or telling her how pretty she looks or whatever, you know, and which kind of finally does get we'll talk about those more. But like this idea of like.
00:05:24
Speaker
The Janeway that I understand would be like, Mr. Neelix, I feel I've given you the impression that you can talk to me this way. Exactly. But that's not what she's doing. Let me correct that impression. Yeah. Like, that's the Janeway I know, and that's what Kate Mulgrew is giving off. So like, it's interesting that she's behaving. Right. She's acting Janeway as like, I have to behave as written. So how would Janeway, oh, Janeway is trying to be very polite, because we're all trying to get off on the right foot here. We're going to be stuck together. for a like That comes clear.
00:05:53
Speaker
Anyway, I just thought it was interesting because there's an old hat in Hollywood, which is probably almost dead down the streaming era, where shows get like immediate pickups and tent, but only 10 episodes seasons. But basically there's this idea of like your first four episodes are simply the pilot reiterated again and again. And so this is episode six, but but it's because again, in the old days, when people didn't have even a DVR to record stuff, the idea was that even ardent fans of your show would only watch one out of every four episodes. So maybe you watch the first one, you come don't watch the next one, you don't watch the one after that. So then when you watch episode four, it's like, oh, who are these people? What are they doing? Oh, they're stuck in space. This person's that, this person's that. that like So that's why I was saying like, they hadn't this was written for the previous conception of Janeway, but also this is like, if you were to open the story Bible or the show Bible,
00:06:50
Speaker
Every one of the characters are simply behaving as what's on the Bible. Jacote, Native American, Spirit Guide. Taurus, cranky, angry, Klingon. The Doctor, abrasive, ah you know, crusty, doesn't- Dismissive, rude. Yeah, Neelix, eccentric, but also like- Creepy. Yeah.
00:07:08
Speaker
but ah um and That has to be in the show Bible. Neelix always acts like a creep. But now that I'm saying this out loud, I'm like, this is so weird. Was this episode shot before the phase? And then it was a well told story. Yeah. Well, also like Neelix is different in the previous episode compared to this one. This Neelix is much closer to like If this had come after caretaker, he so looks like him, he acts like him. So it's very strange. Um, cause they did that back then. They shot things in different orders. yeah And then they didn't say that in the research. That's the only reason. And usually memory alpha was on top of this stuff. It was just a very strange feeling watching this one being like, wait a minute. This is technically the episode that follows the one we just watched.
00:07:53
Speaker
Had this episode been before Faige, it would have made more sense. He's like, okay, well, they're still trying, you know, it's episode three, they're still trying to figure it out. And then the next one in Faige, you'd be like, oh, okay, here we go, here we go. That's not the strangest thing about this episode, though. The strangest thing about this episode, this is the entryway to discuss, is ah is the Native American aspects as channeled through the character of Chakotay. Star Trek Voyager wanted to have an indigenous person, which in the 90s they were not generally referred to as indigenous people.
00:08:27
Speaker
They were Native Americans, and they thought it was so important to show Star Trek's inclusivity and progressiveness. So they wanted to have Native American representation here. They hired a Native American consultant who turned out not to actually be Native American. This person's name, Jamaki Highwater, first known as Jack Marks. And he was a he was known as early as 1984 as a, as a but Charlatan, basically, the Rachel Dolezal of his time. If anyone remembers her. I think that's terrible that people, what is wrong with your brain? Why would you? Well, I know why, because it gets them in places and they're conniving and liars, but it just is terrible. It's just terrible for so many reasons. um But I guess here's the thing that kind of frustrates me, I guess, about con artists in general.
00:09:23
Speaker
They don't care. You know what I mean? You're just like, it's so morally wrong. And they're like, and? You know, so there's no, I just feel like you can't you can't get true justice because they don't care. And once they are free, they will do it again. Maybe a different, you know, a different con, but they will just keep doing it. They will basically keep profiting from wrongdoing forever. And it just so insults my sense of justice. But there you have it. And how did they find this out?
00:09:50
Speaker
I think he was just known to actual Native American people as being a con artist and eventually that got finally penetrated the shielding around the Voyager production people. But I mean, like he was on the show for almost all of it, I think, or if not the whole thing.
00:10:08
Speaker
um And so it was just very, you know, it caused basically Chikote representing generic Native American traits, like with no specific tribal heritage, or it would shift and change um and take and pull and kind of like buttress this. We're recording this well after the fact. So Jerry Taylor, who was a showrunner of the time, she passed away yesterday, actually, as we're recording this. um And so she has this comment, which kind of, it reflects the times, and I think you're okay to to have a negative feeling, because I certainly do reading it, but I'm jumping ahead in our notes here.
00:10:46
Speaker
So like Acuna or this idea of like space Native Americans have developed scientific ways of and ah conjuring up a vision quest that doesn't require psychedelic drugs basically. um And there was, you know, Native Americans were like, well, hold on a minute. minute It's one thing that you're showing that we exist in the 24th century. It's quite another to say, like, and we've leapt so far forward that we're not even going to bother to show an American audience what we do today. We're like, no, no, no, it's a future version of it. So it doesn't have it's you're like alienating us from ourselves to make us more palatable for an audience. That was the complaint. So this idea of a Kuna, which is basically just and ah a device you put your hand on and suddenly you're tripping.
00:11:31
Speaker
um Jerry Taylor was thrilled by the controversy, though. She considered neither the technology nor its uses to be supernatural of the device, she remarked. It's been extremely controversial, which I love. I'm delighted to stir up controversy. We are positing that maybe American Indians in the 24th century have a technology that allows them to tap into their subconscious in a safe way so that they no longer have to take drugs, fast, or go to sweat lodges.
00:11:56
Speaker
Consequently, they navigate their unconscious frequently and are very much more comfortable with it than most of us. I see nothing supernatural about that. This is a man going through his unconscious, tapping into whatever is inside him that can help him navigate through his life. So this is a very Western perspective that she's just like foisting on it and saying, haha, it's controversial. But if the two examples she mentioned, actually all the examples she mentioned, fasting, sweat lodge, and psychedelics, my understanding is they're not taking the psychedelics like alone in their apartment.
00:12:31
Speaker
you know, a sweat lodge on a Saturday night, right? It's yeah, all of this stuff is surrounded by ceremony and that's not community. So yes, sir community ceremony, it's got a bigger purpose than the psychoactive substance or a bigger purpose than sweating, right? There's like more going on. But I also think this is kind of the challenge with representation in general, when someone who is not of that group does not consult someone who's not a charlatan from that same group, you know, to get real information because this is the challenge me as a black woman in America, this is the challenge I often see in TV and movies is that they will cast, say a black woman for a role, but the role they're playing does not fit the culture of a black woman at all. Like they are just they just kind of took the same characters of
00:13:19
Speaker
you know, these white characters and what they're going through in the world and just kind of painted them brown. And then when you watch it, you're just like, but no black woman would say that or do that. Or in that scenario, she would be treated completely differently. And this would be a totally different thing. So then I sit there and I say, well, should I be happy that we're represented at all? Because I'm always happy to see a black person get a role. I'm like, yes, yes, go for it. Like get, get there because that's opening doors for others. But then on the other hand, it's like,
00:13:45
Speaker
I'm glad you got the role and it sucks that this role was not made for you in any way, shape or form, doesn't represent us, is not accurate, doesn't feel real, it doesn't ring true. And then of course it gets tons of criticism, partly fair because it doesn't fit the culture, partly unfair because people are upset at seeing someone brown when they want to see someone non-brown in every single role ever. And so it just, it becomes really tricky. And I feel like that here and I feel like that, especially now in our time seeing um kind of transgender roles and you know more people in the LGBTQ community being shown on TV.
00:14:20
Speaker
sometimes I feel the same way where I'm like, oh man, I'm glad that they have this person being represented in this role, but the way they're being represented is horrible. So you're kind of like, well, is it better than nothing? Because at least it's opening the door so that in the future it will be more accurate. But if they don't take this first step, we'll never get to that step. So I don't know. I'm i'm constantly torn by this. Um, so hearing this comment, I'm like, yeah, that's, yeah, if I'm describing some culture that I don't know anything about,
00:14:46
Speaker
I would say really ignorant things because I would be really ignorant about it. Yeah I mean the it's we can look back at it now and and I guess scold is the wrong word but it's an insensitive comment I understand like if you are perceiving these as just concepts instead of people and you have a busy show you're busy with running a show
Comedic Elements and Character Interactions
00:15:09
Speaker
that it'd be easy. But oh, there's a controversy about this idea that we did. I love controversy. we We certainly weren't trying to show anything in a negative light. We thought this was a positive. And you're kind of ignoring, well, the reason why it's not a positive. So yeah, just pointing that out. It would have been different if it happened today because of social media. We would have known that guy was a charlatan after the first episode.
00:15:31
Speaker
Or it just would have been, a I mean, we've seen that even with the advent of social media, it's like people didn't get grandfathered in and and provided immunity. Social media have been like allowed us to know um the Cosby jokes spreading like wildfire from TV into like, yeah, this is true. And like, causing it would have it would have been not just finding out, it would have been like, did you know that we've known this for a long time?
00:15:59
Speaker
They would have, it would have been both ways. Just another thing I want to point out before I get into memory Alpha's notes. So I kind of mentioned like the first five, four episodes of a show is like reiterating the pilot. um But also it's for Star Trek, this seems like they're trying, they're experimenting with the Star Trek format as they understand it. Because obviously Deep Space Nine, Ira Bear, that writing staff had its own idea of what The Star Trek format could be especially given that they were on a space station and they didn't go anywhere or that they have the defiant or whatever. But Voyager is very much like a lot of TNG g people coming over being like, what could we do that we didn't do in TNG? g That's what it feels like. So the bridge has two private conversations in it, you know, and we've seen private conversations on the bridge of the enterprise, but and because it's Picard and Riker, Picard and Troy, they're very brief at all. And and then they go into the ready room.
00:16:52
Speaker
But here, like Janeway and Chakotay are having like a full whisper conversation, which is very strange. And then you have like the Tuvok and Kim using their personal comb badges to like trade bitchy comments to each other across across the bridge. And then Neelix and Kes bursting in with the hors d'oeuvre. So like they're trying to see like, what can we do that's different? And I appreciate that. And I think because we don't see this ever happen again, that they tried it once and they're like, that's good.
00:17:22
Speaker
but have to do It's too goofy. And that was the other thing, like this episode very much tried to, I think, push to see how
Unique Directorial Challenges and Character Fantasies
00:17:29
Speaker
much more comedy Star Trek could do. And I think that's something that I don't think this was this inspired Strange New Worlds at all. But this is certainly like Strange New Worlds ethos is like Star Trek should first be funny, then it can be Star Trek. and Like that's like there's like a lot of this episode that feels like it would be of a kind with a Strange New Worlds episode, to be honest. Yeah, I like that. It was funny, though, because oh, be too they could have gone in the dark direction, right? Because they're stranded in the Delta Quadrant. They could have gone BSG.
00:17:59
Speaker
where it's like, we're the only humans, and it's awful, and the silence are coming to get us. But instead it's like, boop, ba-doop, boop, boop, ba-doop, let's go, let's go to the Alpha Quadrant. You know, it's just kind of like, it really lightens up the dark, bitter, dark realm that it could have been.
00:18:15
Speaker
Also, in trying to survive, they like mortally wound and a creature, a nebula. That's what, you know, um that I think that they're like, oh, um we should fix that. And so like, that's a dark story, you know, that they almost kill something. So, but then you lighten it up. right um I didn't do that note. Can I drop that in real quick? Sorry, that was one thing I forgot to do.
00:18:40
Speaker
Memory Alpha Notes, run through these. This is the first episode of Voyager David Livingston directed. He'd go on to direct 28 in all, which is pretty wild. ah David Livingston found difficulty with filming Janeway's experience of the vision quest. It was kind of a weird sequence. Michael Pillar wanted us to shoot it in Janeway's office, but I wanted to go to the beach. I didn't want to use a lizard, but it was from his own life and he wanted a big kind of cruel looking animal.
00:19:04
Speaker
Livingston recalled we shot what felt like a thousand feet of film trying to get the lizard to move he just sat there for 10 minutes ah we had a hair dryer on it trying to get it to move around without hurting it the thing was so lethargic it would just sit there we shot it second unit because there was no time to do first unit lizard work
00:19:25
Speaker
don't they see something in show business like never work with animals or kids or something like that? That's exactly right. Yep. Uh, I think it's interesting. I did not remember that. I had not seen this episode since it first aired. And so, so 30 years ago. So I think it's incredibly funny that her animal is a lizard and then threshold happens. I was literally watching the scene going, please don't be a lizard. Please don't be a lizard. Whatever the animal is, just don't let it be a lizard. And then it was a lizard. And I was like, ugh. Threshold is one of my least favorite episodes of all of Star Trek. I do think it's interesting that if you break the warp barrier, you hyper-evolve. But that episode's gross. so And I never want to see it or talk about it again. So seeing a lizard was like, no. Can we talk about it for two seconds? Did that?
00:20:10
Speaker
Did this lizard thing, was was it a subconscious connection? Brandon Braga did not write this scene, did not write the sequence, whatever, but did something because it was his original idea and he maybe kept tabs on its development and watched what they did with his idea, did that just subconsciously embed in his head for when he wrote Thresholds?
00:20:32
Speaker
Maybe because, you know, I noticed sometimes with shows like the names will be the same over and over and over like in different series is because it's like probably the name of their kid or, you know, something that's just like it's on their mind. um So maybe it was they just had lizards on the brain. But I think they probably were thinking, what could we work Tom into? That would be as disgusting as possible. Like what would okay, well, if he loses a tongue, what if he loses, you know what I mean? And I think it Yeah, but then why they chose that, they specifically said like, well, evolving futuristically doesn't necessarily that we all evolve. Like it's not linear. It doesn't just go up. The line doesn't just go to like, amazing, amazing, amazing. Sometimes we could evolve into something that's backwards. Like that was the literal point of the episode. So then he could have, you know what I mean? Like he his tongue could have fallen out and he could have still turned into a being of light. You know what I mean? Or like gro or whatever. Instead they were like, nope, you return to the water.
00:21:27
Speaker
It turned into the sea from once you came. Anyway, I just thought that was interesting because I was like, if it's a lizard, i mean that the the threshold connection is just like inescapable to me. Of course. Because it's so famous. Of course. um Also, it'd be a good way to like boost that terrible episode up. It'd be like, this was presage. It was a planned all along.
00:21:49
Speaker
They should have ran with it. During production on the Shea Sandrine set, oh, this is something I didn't mention. So this is our first big like oh recurring holodeck bit programmed by Tom Paris. So they're even seating right there at the beginning that Tom Paris, his porn is on the holodeck and he likes to program. And he likes to share it too. Yeah, is yeah very specific role plays and kinks.
00:22:13
Speaker
Very different. He shares his porn freely and openly with the crew so everyone can be entertained on this long voyage home. So what is it like a French tavern? He said exactly what it was. Now I forget. It's a bar. Yeah. Yeah. It's got a pool table and a bunch of French women. He used to go to when he was ah and in the academy but in France. So for some part of his training.
00:22:35
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, right. It was like his like tactical or like actual like physical training. yeah ah During production on that set, Shae Sandrine, Kim actor Garrett Wong raised some concerns about female attention to which Paris, because all the women were throwing themselves on Paris and touching him and saying he's amazing.
00:22:53
Speaker
ah So to which Paris actor Robert Duncan McNeil then gave Wong some advice. I jokingly, Garrett Wong said, I jokingly complained to David Livingston during a scene we were filming in a pool hall. All these women were coming up and finally over Paris. And I asked, David, why doesn't Harry get any women? And then David Livingston said, because you're the nice guy.
00:23:12
Speaker
And then Robert mu Duncan McNeil turned to me and said, you know, I used to play innocent in naive in my early twenties and you're going to have to go through that for a while before you can be the stud guy like me. I think that's stupid.
00:23:27
Speaker
And I think one way to make it seem that Harry Kim and Garrett Wong are handsome and desirable is to have characters in the show say they are handsome and desirable and then portray them in such a way. And I have a hard time believing that a show that would but willingly tokenizes every non-white character in the show and I'm talking about even the Klingons like if you're not like that it would be very hard to not assume that there is some subconscious stereotyping of Asian men going on here. It's in like to me it's it ah like looking back on it unconscious or conscious it just seems impossible that that was not what was going on here. Garrett Wong in the first
00:24:11
Speaker
10 episodes does nothing to say like this guy shouldn't be in the show more. So like the idea that they downplayed him maybe because he got annoying because they weren't giving him anything. But like it just this idea of like he's like a little schoolboy like this almost asexual schoolboy is weird. It's very strange. Even in this moment, it's very why would Tom Paris invite his potential good friend there to watch him get fawned over by holographic women? Makes some sense. Kind of weird.
00:24:41
Speaker
Yep. but That's, I think that's Sandrine's in a nutshell. Like I hate this, I hate this hologram, this holodeck program. I think it's gross. I would never enter it myself. Delta Quadrant or no Delta Quadrant. I would not be entering this particular program because it's creepy.
00:24:57
Speaker
And I agree with everything you're saying. And also, I do feel like, you know, it's just, it's Tom's ultra fantasy that all these women are falling over him and making out with him left and right. Okay, but you don't really need, you don't need an audience for that. No one needs to be there for that. You're the only person who's enjoying this time. And I think all of that is creepy and weird. He also makes the Fairhaven one later. Neelix makes like the Tiki bar, you know, Reisa kind of one later on.
00:25:24
Speaker
Of all the three, I would only be in the Risa one. Like I don't need to be in Sandrine's. I have no desire to be in Fairhaven. Like I would just be on the, you know, on the fake beach drinking holographic cocktails. I think it's weird that Tom Paris is theoretically burning through his, his replicator rations by using the holodeck so much. Cause surely Captain Janeway being able to get a cup of coffee through the replicator makes more sense than this guy who barely is an officer anymore. It's able to just run the holodeck for hours. and it's i know twenty four seven It's so weird. It's such a weird trade off. The holodeck has to use more energy than the replicator.
00:26:08
Speaker
Yeah, they do say something not here because I don't think they thought about that. But later on, they say something about how the holodeck is like, basically, it's it's on par with life support, because people are trapped in the Delta Quadrant. And they're going they're getting cabin fever.
00:26:25
Speaker
i do Yeah, I'm a firm believer of the reason why the holodeck exists at all. Started with starships on deep space assignments because like we need to curb space madness. And it it then filtered down into like public use and like court like the frangie got it. And it went on space stations. But I think it really did start with like, yeah how do we stop people from um losing their freaking minds on these ships, which I think was a good thing to think about. Can't all be the counselor. We got to have some kind of decompression.
00:26:55
Speaker
The visual effects team wasn't really happy with the VFX in this episode. the One of the comments was like if they had done it a year earlier, it would have been done almost completely differently with a lot of practical effects layered or merged together and then tweet in post and with computers. This was basically all CGI. I think I agree with them.
00:27:16
Speaker
This is an episode that would actually probably do very well with a with a remaster glow up. like They could really add some much better looking visual effects. They could, but the story doesn't warrant it. Well, just the glimpses we get. You know what I mean? like I just think they would make it look cooler. No, I agree. It could look cooler, but I'm saying, what's the point? Because the storyline wouldn't change. like This would make more sense if it was like a beloved episode, and then they took the time to remaster it. And you're like, wow, and it's even better, like that.
00:27:44
Speaker
Uh, not only is this a pivotal Voyager episode with the coffee Nebula line, this is the big one that even I teenage Brian remembered through the run of the series. This is the memory alpha now quote, although Chocote says they have a compliment of 38 photon torpedoes to which January responds that they have no way to replace them. Voyager would end up using at least 81 torpedoes over the course of the series.
00:28:13
Speaker
this This is what you remember from your childhood. I remember very clearly, Chakotay stating how many torpedoes they had. I'm like, that doesn't sound like a lot. I'm like, if the show is going to be on a while, what? We're talking about five a year but as a kid. And then I remember, and then like at a few episodes from now, they use several photon torpedoes. I'm like, hold on. What happened at 30?
00:28:35
Speaker
You're just using them willy-nilly. It was also cute, like I was saying earlier, like the things that they're experimenting with the show. How adorable that they were like placing limitations on Voyager and thinking they'd fall through. And then my last note, the episode achieved a Nielsen rating of 7.9 million homes and a 12% share. Again, that would be a massive hit today. Let's get into the grades. Grade scenes.
00:29:02
Speaker
I don't have any. How about you? I have two and a half. Cool. Let's hear them. So the teaser, Janeway's log, maybe not all of it. I like the idea of it. And I like. Yeah, I like the tour of the ship. Yes. ah great That's the main thing about the teaser. Great direction. David Livingston did a phenomenal job directing the episode and might have actually taking it from a bad one to whatever we're going to judge. I didn't like everything she had to say. I just like the idea behind it. And like you said, the tour of the ship. But also I did like the moment of Kim in Paris because that's like a, that's a Bible relationship, right?
00:29:44
Speaker
Paris is gonna take Kim under his wing and teach him the ropes of how to be an officer so they're just playing to the Bible but I like the pushback that Kim gives where we're like should we have invited the captain to join us and Paris like that's not how it works and he says I think you're working from an old rule but book Paris I like that idea because things are always changing I don't feel like I'm that old and I know I'm old but I am ancient ah compared to some cultural norms, like I'm millennial compared to Gen Z, et cetera, like things change quickly. And so Lieutenant Tom Paris, who both was in the service well before Kim and all that stuff, like, yeah, things are a little bit different, especially that given their circumstances. We have to end on the line. The episode ends with, again, teenage Brian just going like, this is so stupid. There's coffee in that nebula? Come on! That's like... If you're doing a top five things about Voyager, I think that's number five. like If you were just to think about the history of Voyager. Oh, for sure. Every time I do a skit on Janeway, I get that comment like at least 60 times from different people. No matter what the skit's about, they're just like, there's coffee in the nebula. There's coffee in the nebula. Maybe they double down because it ends on act one. it's time to Maybe it's time to give up coffee.
00:30:59
Speaker
It's like, when they barely escape. it just like this is oh I can't believe, and and this is before I started drinking coffee. I didn't start drinking coffee until I turned 31. And I was like, what have I been? I'm like, thank goodness I didn't discover coffee when I was 21.
00:31:14
Speaker
but like but product Anyway, so I get it now, but still it's ridiculous. So the whole teaser, I think it is a great scene. The next one is the scene where they're all on the bridge and the doctor's on the view screen and they're figuring out that the cloud could regenerate and how they might be able to help it. It's a pure comedy scene, perfectly staged where you see the whole bridge and the whole cast and the doctor and Livingston even has um Robert Picardo walk in the sick bass set. So you really get this full sense of space, how depth, how real it all feels. That was a really cool shot. It's a great shot. I don never see that again. No, it's so beautifully done.
00:31:59
Speaker
It's also fucking hilarious. Cause Janeway doesn't even bother to turn around and look at him and she's like, computer mute audio. It's so great. I love it. It's a great scene just because of how funny it is. um And the fact is like they're all, it's all on story as well. It's advancing the plot. So I thought that worked. And then this is my half scene.
00:32:20
Speaker
Janeway and Neelix. Neelix comes in and is like, I want my ship. I don't want to go back into that thing and blah, blah, blah. And kind of just like the doctor, she does not even waste energy looking at him. She's doing her work. You've got so many data pads to read right now. And she's just like, we're doing it. And she's like, like, Jonah and the whale, you're going in. And he's just so flustered, he leaves. I think it was an important scene. It's like, I actually think Ethan Phillips His performance in this episode is, again, it's what the material that they're given. I think he gives a good performance. And I think everyone in the show is pretty, in like, the ah yeah rubber the doctor's annoying. Like, yeah everyone's kind of annoying in the way they're supposed to be. But I think here it was like, he has a legitimate conflict. I think I understand Neelix's point of view very well, actually.
00:33:09
Speaker
And I think Janeway, you know, I'm on Janeway's side anyway, and I just live the way she handled it. Yeah. Because in the first scene in the mess hall scene in the teaser, I that almost knocked the whole scene out to me. But Mulgrew being very polite to Neelix, who's being very condescending and yeah and rude. Yes. It's fine. But then here he walks on to her into her office. She walked into his office. Remember, she sneaks around. Yeah. So like maybe the chef You can't mess. And she was also at that moment in the episode, she was also doing that whole I need to be more than a captain. Let me be buddy buddy with people just got away from this really awkward conversation with Tom and Harry where she's like, how do I do this? I don't know how to do this. And so when Neelix is being just
00:33:50
Speaker
a jerk, you know, when he not a jerk, when he's being super condescending, she's just you see her like biting her tongue physically. And she's like, be buddy, buddy, be more than a captain, you know, mean but in this other scene, she's she's, she's working, she's working right now. And you are your budget bird bursting in to talk some nonsense. And so we get to see the real Jamie being like, Listen, I'm busy. And I love the part where she's like, get out. Yeah, that Starfleet for get out. And he's just like, Oh,
00:34:18
Speaker
Oh, okay. Then he walks out and he goes, Jonah, whale. He's like, what are these things? Which, again, was funny, because it's like, yeah, they should he should not know that reference. Like, he should be confused by that. So that's why I put it as a half great scene, because I think yeah, her side of it is so great. And I understand the Alexis point of view, to be honest, and um But it is weird that they like make him this adventure guy, and then it does add into he's a creep. That he's yeah he seems like a cool guy, but you scratch that surface and there's a fucking weirdo underneath. Exactly! I'm glad they've massaged this character quite a bit. He has a lot of changes, so does the Doctor, because this this version is very insufferable.
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah, this, and again, they're just, when Torres activates him, this is just stuff from the Bible. So the freelancer Tom Zolozi, like he's just reading off of like, the the doctor rubs everyone the wrong way, which sucks for having the dog, the only doctor on the ship being an asshole, no one wants to be around. Like that, that makes sense. um All right, best trek tropes. I have a few.
Classic Tropes and Controversial Characters
00:35:22
Speaker
I have a few as well and they all came from your best scenes. um I love the personal log. I i loved Neelix in the kitchen. Anytime we're in Neelix's kitchen, it's just fun. I just love seeing the bubbling and the fire and this just weird things that Potentially, there's food in there somewhere. I don't know. I just assume it's all like plastic. And I know some of it's like you know potatoes and turnips dye different colors. But I just i love it. like It looks spacey, looks alien, looks future. Love it. um I love the whispering on the bridge. I just thought that was really funny. And just like I was like, yeah, the bridge is huge. And everybody can hear everybody's conversation, um which I hadn't thought about until that. I was like, yeah, everybody is. They're sitting there working, but like we can all hear each other.
00:36:06
Speaker
um I loved Dangerous Nebula. That's a classic. Like in any Star Trek, there's always the possibility that there's something awful in that Nebula and it's not coffee.
00:36:17
Speaker
Um, that's why Neelix has a point. He's like, that's why I go around nebulas. Exactly. We didn't do that scene where he and that, where he's bitching the cast about why are they always exploring? I'm just like, I liked that they explore. I had to ship. I had to explore everything.
00:36:33
Speaker
But he he has a point. Yes. Yes. He's like, I always go around. Starfleet never does. yeah They've never met a nebula. They didn't want to explore. Never ever. Which is, but we're hiding, which is funny because you think, you know, space is pretty.
00:36:47
Speaker
pretty empty, pretty vast, pretty empty. So you come along a nebula and it's like, whoa, what's in there? You know, and he looks just like, no, keep going through the empty part. So anyways, that's just like a classic trope, which is always a good time because even if they're hiding in it, now the nebula is toxic, and it's breaking the shields.
00:37:03
Speaker
And if they don't get out of the nebula soon, the whole ship's going to explode. But there's a whole armada of ships outside of the nebula. And they can only go out of the nebula in the same way that they came in. They can't go out in any other way. So they have to run directly into the armada. So yeah, classic, just so classic. And then I also put muting the doctor, which I loved. I loved that scene.
00:37:23
Speaker
But I love the emergency channel, the the whole concept of that he always has to like, like a little dog scratching the door to be let in. It's great. Right. The emergency channel is not just like a regular well, in any case, um I loved that because it reminded me of I used to be a middle school teacher for special needs kids. And when we went on distance learning because of COVID, we went on distance learning for a couple of months. um We have this one kid who loved to blurt out. We have a lot of kids who love to blurt out, but this one kid was tech savvy. So he knew how to unmute his mic so he could blurt out randomly throughout the lesson and then mute his mic again. And it was just as annoying and distracting as it would be in real life. So from time to time, we would just block his ability to unmute. And he would do exactly what the doctor was doing in this scene.
00:38:07
Speaker
He'd be waving his arms frantically. He'd be typing in the chat. Why can't I unmute at all caps? He'd be like hitting the screen because we wouldn't let him blurt out and disturb all the lessons. And so anyways, this just made me laugh. I was like, that's so true. When you meet people that are like, unmute me right now. Those are mine. Yeah.
00:38:30
Speaker
but basically you had all mine too. I'm gonna just reiterate again, the threat of limited resources as a best trek trope. Again, I just think it's so cute that they tried. at the beginning to be like, we're gonna set limits and stick to, like they dump their deuterium and Taurus is like, that's a lot of fuel for us to dump and Janeway is like, do it. And then it's just like, it never happened. So see that even makes more
Voyager's Limited Resources Narrative
00:38:55
Speaker
sense for this episode to come before Phage because in Phage, I mean, in all the episodes in season one, they're looking for deuterium, but in Phage, that's how they got into that scenario because they were like, we're on our last few drops. We've got to go into this dangerous planet.
00:39:07
Speaker
And in fact, now I think about it, at the end of this episode, Janeway says, Neelix knows of this planet where there's deuterium. So it actually makes a lot of sense for this one to come first, for them to say, oh, we're going to this random planet that Neelix knows about because it has deuterium and now we have to replenish our reserves. And I'm not reading this wrong, right? This came afterward. It <unk> I'm just saying, because we've seen i like, i've seen yes, this makes way more sense as coming. This is feels like it should be before phase. Mm hmm.
00:39:35
Speaker
Yeah, I would recommend that for anyone watching it for the first time. Watch this one first and then watch Phage because then it just, it it dovetails in perfectly. But yeah, it makes sense that they would have limited stuff, but we don't want seven years of limited stuff. We don't want seven years of like, this is our last torpedo, seven years of like, Well, I mean, the idea then you do episodes of like, okay, we found these torpedoes that we can refashion. Like, and they do kind of touch on these things. Like Voyager does over the course of the show replace things with other parts. And, you know, that does happen. But like deadlock, like think this is a perfect example. like that chip is
00:40:13
Speaker
that that ship is not space worthy after that episode. And so the idea that you could just do that is like, you didn't have to write that, but also if you do write that, what are the consequences? And like the next week the ship is fine.
00:40:27
Speaker
Like that is where it goes and it's nuts. So it doesn't hold very long. I don't even think it lasts much of the first season. I don't think it gets through the end of the season because I think at some point they either find a rich reserve or they get another power source. Something happens because we don't start season two talking about we're out of deuterium. We don't do that.
00:40:46
Speaker
I think just for a best trek trope, like that is the veneer of scientific reality that does separate Star Trek from certain other things. So I appreciate that. Worst trek tropes, Neelix. I'm jumping the line. Yeah, three of my four worst tropes are Neelix.
00:41:04
Speaker
Where does he get off calling the captain beautiful and and bossing her around on her ship about what she can and cannot order? Like, condescending to Kess is one thing, I guess, and wanting to get off the ship when stuff gets scary, fine. But like, back off, you're there because she is allowing you to. You're a visitor, dude. Yeah. You're a refugee, but your ship is still in the hold. We will happily put you back on that bad boy.
00:41:31
Speaker
Best luck in the Delta Quadrant. Hope you find water. We didn't have to fire a micro probe to distract this cloud. We could have shot your shot. resources use your shit but You want to get out? Get out right now. there you go
00:41:49
Speaker
Yeah, um, yes, three, three of my four is Neelix. Neelix is just the worst in this episode. And then my fourth one is the oversexed holograms. Um, which to be fair, I can't, I can't say it's like a running trope. It's more just like, it's, it happens in Sandrine's. I'll go with you on that. It's it's the it's the ethnic stereotyping.
00:42:13
Speaker
I think you would want most of the characters when you go on there to relax. You'd want them to be horny, right? I'm just trying to like build your thing. I mean, it depends on how we just define relax. Does relax mean that as soon as I walk into the building, people are trying to make out with me and make sweet, beautiful love over their cabin by the woods? It's like, okay, that's, I mean, I guess, but there's different layers of relaxation and it just feels weird that it's like a group brothel.
00:42:42
Speaker
Anyways, it's not used a lot, but... Yeah, no, I'm with you. I agree. ...used from time to time. That's why I'm like, uh, it's kind of tough. I'm looking at it this way. Tom Paris recreated a memory, which kind of fits with the theme of people being homesick and all that stuff.
00:42:57
Speaker
that I kind of like that's where they were going with they were like that is a strange thing to recreate like this I want to recreate the sexual tension I experienced every time bar just turned up the the horniness factor a little bit um well and the woman Ricky or whatever I've got I program her and all of my programs oh yes okay so Yeah. So we know what you do there. I don't, you, listener, you can't see my face, but it's disgusted. I'm just like, why are we sharing this with Harry? Or maybe that's like a buddy thing. Maybe you guys do that. I don't know, but then it's like, and like, okay, then. And but the lawn is in there and we're all sharing it. I don't know. It's a way to fix. Yes. So him showing Harry is,
00:43:45
Speaker
for better or worse, that's a guy thing. That is absolutely true. The fact that so that's nine the century version is how it would go, I think is as bad as men are today still, there is still that version like the 21st century version where it'd be like, Tom Paris would share a little bit more. Like, and I even programmed a one for you and maybe she would just be like Chinese or something. like It could be very stereotypical, but like and that would be what would happen. And there there are Asian French people. I programmed in an Asian person just for you, because you're also Asian. would Get it? Exactly. yeah That's what we would do today, because that's how sensitive.
00:44:25
Speaker
But I think the other... That's exactly what they would have done. I think the other tweak that they would have done today is that when everyone gets invited in, they would start reprogramming it to make it less skeezy feeling. Yeah. And that's what is missing from this episode. Like you invite the captain in, and actually it kind of works because they kind of just jump over the horniness part.
00:44:46
Speaker
like Well, it no, it totally works because Janeway's like, because he's like, Captain, if I knew you were coming and she's like, you would have changed it yeah because he absolutely would have because he knows that that's like not appropriate. I almost wish you co and yeah i almost put that as a great scene because Kate Mulgrew did learn how to become a pool hustler. Like she spent some time practicing her shots. So that's her doing at the end of the episode. folks She's like, just she plays the the ringer. Yeah, she's a pool shark at the end. And that's great. I like that. I thought that was really great. And she's all like, can I borrow your stick? Like she has to act really ignorant just so she can crush. And that's exactly what you want from your captain. and And they were trying to find ways to be like, well, how what would the captains of the other shows not do? And I could see Cisco doing this, to be perfectly honest. But the point is, is like, no, we've never seen it. So that makes perfect sense. That should be a great scene. You know, at the end, as much as we don't like I'm with you on the Sandrine thing and I'm not really a Tom Paris fan in his fantasies. I don't rock much of what he does.
00:45:43
Speaker
I still think Janeway coming in at the end and being a pool shark is a good thing. That is great. Even though it's in this restaurant. That didn't invite her, too, because that was something at the beginning. I want to invite her to be a part of what the rest of the crew is doing. Paris being like, that's not okay. Him being like, but I think it's just polite. Yeah, we do get that payoff, which is nice. It also shows the more merging of the crew, which we haven't seen before because the captain is always separate. But in this case, the captain has to be, as she says, more than a captain, you can't be like so standoffish for potentially 70 years.
00:46:15
Speaker
Yeah, you got to cozy up to these people. That, I think it sets her up to be so brutal to the, to the Vidian in the next episode. She's like, well, now that these are my children, if you come here, me and my children again, I'm going to fucking murder you. Yes. I respond with lethal force. You tell your people that. Clear? Yes, ma'am. So I kind of hijacked your your worst truck joke of seedy holodeck recreations. What else do you have? so but but We agree. Okay.
00:46:40
Speaker
um and I don't mind calling out shield percentages in this one, even though i people might be expecting that I always mention that. They only called it out once, though. I'm just going to mention it here. Right.
00:46:52
Speaker
you don't like Is that a worst trope then? I put it as a worst trope, but I'm like, this is the softest possible to like, I didn't want to put it as a best trick joke. I didn't want to put it as people think I missed it. I only observed it once and I thought it was fine because once is fine. It's like we got hit or a hundred percent went down a little bit. So, but like enough to be like, we shouldn't be here for very long. I got it.
00:47:13
Speaker
um And then this has to be in here. We already talked about it, the portrayal of Native Americans, kind of up and down Star Trek. I think next generation people might be able to defend some of it. Maybe I don't know when they're in like the, the demilitarized zone or I don't know, but, uh, I don't even know if their heart was in the right place. This is like the colonia the colonizer will throw you a bone to show that in our in our future, you still exist in some form. But you still wear our uniform and you still like you're not going to escape us. You're just going to find your own way in there. And that's the thing. like that like Diversity, um equity, and inclusion is a whole phrase because diversity means different people.
00:47:59
Speaker
But that doesn't mean they're included. That doesn't mean theyre doesn't mean they're ah part of that they're being represented accurately or anything else. It just means that you have someone else standing on the bridge. You've got Harry Kim standing on the bridge. That's all it means. ah So there's like another layer. So yeah, I guess we could put that as a worst trek trope.
00:48:18
Speaker
for its track, but also specifically for Voyager because right there's because a whole character. Yeah. There is the mind the Western mindset of like, oh, well, then that just means that we should have Native American admirals or like the head of Starfleet or the president of Earth. And it's like, no, that's still not.
00:48:37
Speaker
It's still like amping up. These people were not invited to be here. star You know, Starfleet in San Francisco is still built on native indigenous people's lands, even if it is the future, like it it all stemming from that. um And that's all to say, like, you cannot smooth over a very deep complicated issue by just putting people in a Starfleet uniform.
Janeway's Portrayal and Leadership
00:49:02
Speaker
That is what Star Trek's about. It's like, let's touch on things. I agree. That is true. Which I actually appreciate the bravery. Let's touch on things. Like, they're not going to solve it. They're not promising to solve it. I agree. But the worst Trek trope is thinking that you did a good thing because you did it at all. And loving the controversy because it's great. Exactly. Most cosplayable character or moment.
00:49:25
Speaker
I put the nebula without the wound. Oh yeah. Oh, I put the wounded nebula. Cause you could then have a little Voyager in there to like um suture it up, but that's good. no I like that. It just gross me out. So yeah that's why I was like, no, but you got like a big pink puffy cloud all over you. I don't know. That would just be fun.
00:49:40
Speaker
I think if you were like, listen, I don't, that seems too complicated. I'm not that arts and craftsy. Then the deep cut that you could get a lot of off from, from people at a convention is gone. Gary, you could just be the pool shark in the hologram and the whole neck. Now it's time for the line must be drawn. here Great lines.
00:50:00
Speaker
So I like when Neelix was being really condescending and was like, Captain, you need to set an example for the crew. And she goes, thank you for reminding me. Like, I just thought that was just, that just made me laugh so hard because you could just see her like with her gritted teeth. Like, really? I hadn't thought about the fact that I'm the captain of a ship and I actually need to be an example. Like what a revolutionary idea.
00:50:22
Speaker
And then, of course, I love Janeway in the first 15 episodes because it's cable grooving like, OK, I'm the lead of a network show. And I love the way that she tackles everything with such enthusiasm. You compare that to her energy in like season six and seven. It hasn't diminished. It simply changed. She's like, what bullshit are these fuckers going to throw at me this week? She's not even talking about the characters in the script. She's like, what nonsense does Rick have waiting for me when we yell cut? like And you can see it in her face, but she's like, I'm not going to let them win. I'm going to be Captain Janeway. But this one, she's just like, here go. So like even there, she's like so joyfully ah like being polite to Neelix. I love it. It's, it's so great. Like that's what they needed. It's what all the cast members said. Like when she came on the show, like there was a suddenly light on the set because she brought it in. She, she and Shetner are very similar in like, they come in like, let's work, let's do it like whatever. So like persona wise, personality wise, they're not the same. but like just the energy they bring to a set is is kind of different. Anyway, keep going. I want to highlight that. Okay, no, love that. um There's coffee in that nebula obviously is one of the probably the most memorable line from all of Voyager because everyone knows that one.
00:51:42
Speaker
um And then when when Tom is taking Harry to see his creepy program and he goes, and Harry's like, what do you have to show me? And Tom's like, nothing that compares to the memory of your mother's womb. I was just like, yeah, all of this, what is going on right now? What is going on with all of this? The whole sequence from when he picks him up from his room in the dark to when he's in the porn,
00:52:09
Speaker
shop, getting, you know, making out all these things. Tell the women that, okay? And the second he walks in there, it's like, oh, I can't get enough. And Harry's like, uh, this is what you brought me, you got me out of bed for. This is, do I need to be in this program? Yeah. That whole sequence, I was like, what's going on right now?
00:52:29
Speaker
OK, so the research on that, which because I was just talking how much I cut it, but like basically ah Michael Piller did a big rewrite on this episode because all they had was the cloud is alive. It was all Brandon Braga could come up with. So they're like, OK, we need to write around this. Well, how do we do that? And folks, this is like both a cop out and ah and a justification that holds water when you run into TV writers and you look at why certain episodes happen.
00:53:00
Speaker
Ultimately, they will default to this defense. It's about the characters, stupid. They were just like, if we don't have a really killer, organic plot or story that's interesting on its own, always fall back to the characters making choices. Because that is true. That is why people are watching are the characters. But sometimes it tends to devolve into like, make the characters do stuff.
00:53:26
Speaker
Now, does that stuff make sense? Is it interesting in its own right? Not necessarily, but in this case, Michael Piller was like, oh, since we only have this like 15 minutes of story with the cloud. And we can't actually spend that much money looking at the cloud. How can we ride around this? And Brandon Braga in one of these Star Trek Voyager unauthorized interview books said like, because this was 1994 when the episode was written is like Michael Piller loved Pulp Fiction. And so that specific scene is like Jules and... um
00:53:59
Speaker
Vincent walking when they're talking about the Royale with cheese and all that stuff. Like that is oh that's what fiction inspired dialogue is what's going on. Yes, that's what's going on in that specific sequence. So there you go. The reason it didn't read as Pulp Fiction to me.
00:54:18
Speaker
I see what you're saying. Quentin Tarantino inspired a spade, a run, which maybe up until like five years ago, 10 years ago, we finally started to get away from of dudes being bros, but talking about non sequitur or random stuff on their way to doing the thing that we're all paying to see.
00:54:43
Speaker
Wow. Dialogue, man. yeah Thanks for that contribution of all the things that he's done as an artist. That's the thing that's stuck, huh? Wow. And violence. yeah and And ridiculous levels of violence, yeah. Yeah, political violence.
00:54:58
Speaker
So then the last phrase is when she said the last line I have is also gene is Jane is Janeway again where she says dismissed and then she says that's a Starfleet expression for get out. I love that line because she said dismissed and Neelix is still standing there. And I was like, does he not, does he not not get it that the conversation's over now? And then when she's just like, that's a Starfleet expression for get out. And he's like, Oh,
00:55:19
Speaker
Okay. I just love that line. I love that. And to your point of what you said earlier, I wish you would have done something like that in the beginning of the episode. But that's not the point. The point of the episode is to show her being like, let's all be friends. And then her being like, F this I'm the captain, you know, like that was, but I wish I would have gotten even more of this in the beginning because that would have been really fun to see her just be like, let me stop you there. I'm the captain of the ship. You are a visitor.
00:55:42
Speaker
stick to the kitchen and get me some coffee. Right, because that sequence ends with her getting a call from Chakotay on the bridge and she's just like, oh, an excuse to get out of this awkward situation. It's like, he should, no, that's not, that's not how that scene should do it. She's the captain. She's like, you know, when I come back here looking for coffee, I expect to find coffee. Exactly. I expect to find some coffee and not whatever the F this is. Yeah.
00:56:09
Speaker
I do remember The Sludge. That I remember from the first time I saw this episode. yeah It was just so gross. Yes. ah my Mine was actually an Alex line because you said all the good ones. The coffee line is the line of the episode. It's the line it's the line of the first season. it's It's the line of the show, the series. yeah um Do you follow the No Context Star Trek account on social media? No. It's a great follow. Everyone should follow it. It's on multiple platforms now it's I think usually it's at no context trek and we'll just take actual lines it's not like swear trek well they're like
00:56:43
Speaker
jam curse words into sequences that don't make sense, but like no context trick, they'll just take snippets and just randomly, sometimes they'll put it in when it's like appropriate for whatever is going on in the news or whatever, but there's a weekly one, because I'm sure you've seen the accounts of like ladies and gentlemen, the weekend, people just like snipping things to say the weekend has started. ah Well, they they post every Friday at around four o'clock, seven of nine saying fun will now commence.
00:57:11
Speaker
And so for me, that is that is also now a big quote from boy. Coffee is an escape. My line was an elix line as well. I'm going to add. these when when they when he sees them going into the nebula and they see the first like loose bodies and he's looking out the the mess hall windows and he sees all this stuff he goes these people are natural born idiots if you ask me they don't appreciate what they have here this ship is the match of any vessel within a hundred light years but what do they do with it well let's see if we can find some space anomaly today that might rip it apart
00:57:43
Speaker
So that is the Voyager ethos and- He nailed it. That's exactly what it's about. Well done. Would this be a fun, hollow novel to play out? I put no, I would not have fun in this at all. What about you? ah No, I don't wanna, it's like two levels. I don't wanna hurt a life form, but also like deal with the ramifications of that. We've lost energy reserves. And then also within that, I don't wanna go into someone else's holodeck recreation. This episode reminds me more than anything of like,
00:58:13
Speaker
I don't want to see your holodeck recreation. I mean, we do see like this kind of becomes Tom's thing is making holodeck programs. And in the episode, um, I'm blanking on it, but it's the one where Cesca comes back in the evil hologram and she like runs a muck and it's super fun.
00:58:33
Speaker
Um, we see like that episode would be really fun. So I think there's potential here with creating holodeck programs that people can explore over and over because we're trapped in the Delta Quadrant yada yada. So I think the idea is really good. Maybe take all this particular program though is not for me. I'd be like, let's let's what's phase two of the program. but Like you're making a good point because it's like this actually is more like a filmmaker and you want to see the movie they made. Right. Or the video they made. That I'm kind of, that I'm on board with. Right. And sometimes you're like, this one's not, this one's didn't hit it. Like it wasn't for me. Come into my TikTok. No, but like for me, I was thinking more of, um, you know, you know what sports are professional sports. And you know that there are fantasy sports where like,
00:59:15
Speaker
Just fans of the sport will draft teams and try to win against each other by oh I put together the best team and scored the most points So to me I was approaching it like fan it like your holodeck fantasy is like showing someone your fantasy team, bro I don't care I don't care But your point is, I think your point is actually more correct. of Like, I've made this thing to entertain you. Does it entertain you? Right. it Makes a lot more sense. But, um, no, not a fun holodeck episode. This one will be the Anton Caridian award for best performance.
00:59:47
Speaker
I actually put Harry Kim just throughout the episode of being such a like, instant eager. I think he plays that role really, really well. And I was listening to their podcast Delta Flyers. And in the I think the first he was talking to Robert Duncan to Tom about like, would you have would you have described me as instant eager back in those days when we were recording and he was like, Yes,
01:00:12
Speaker
So that was his real personality at the time. He was so excited. He was super young. I think he was in his early twenties. Um, he was really hot at the time. Like he had been at a bunch of stuff and he was kind of stolen away from another project to be in the pilot of this show. So when it got picked up, he was like, woo, yes, acting, acting so fun. And like no one in his family acts. He's from the middle of like the Midwest or something. So he was just,
01:00:35
Speaker
aped He was just pumped about everything. He was super excited. And so maybe he didn't have to act quite as much because that's how he really felt in real life. But I do think he just makes such a believable, instant eager. Like he just seems really like, we're here and we're going to make the best of it. You know, and I just, I think that's really, I think it's really well done. I agree. And more and more, it seems that he got beaten down over time in the same way that got little bitter. yeah yeah But I mean, it's an idiot i season it's so weird going back and rewatching the first season season, because I remember at the time, like, I had no issue with Harry Kim. I'm like, what an interesting, like, that's a cool character. That character makes a lot of sense. um i you He and Jane, he and kind of Janeway and kind of Tuvok were the only characters I actually liked in the like, seriously, just like, if they're in a scene, I'm enjoying it. If anyone else to see please get I don't want to watch it at all like I didn't like any other character on the show um and rewatching and it's like it's kind of an impeachable of like oh Garrett Wong was actually pretty good and they didn't realize what they had and they didn't write towards it and that's on them and um and it seems it's very strange so lay yeah we have to give it to him because it's a season one performance I'm i'm done with that
01:01:52
Speaker
but Special consideration, of course, for all the moments we've highlighted, Kate Mulgrew being great. But she's kind of like Patrick Stewart. You could maybe give it to her in almost any episode that she's in. So then the Shatner, who really went for it? Are you going to give it to Kate Mulgrew? Yes, I am. I knew you were. I am. I gave it to her for when she was telling off Neelix. I just felt like I felt like the energy. In fact, I mean, throughout the episode, though, I felt like to your point,
01:02:19
Speaker
she did feel like she was she was trying to bring her vision of the character into the role. Even though it was written for the previous conception of the character. Yes, that's the that is the weird tension for sure. um You're totally right. No, she should get it. The Shatner is not like a bad acting award. It's like, who really goes for it? And she is really going for Janeway. I totally agree. It's a great choice.
01:02:46
Speaker
um Shoot to thrill, most exciting image or sequence. I put entering the breach when there was the lightning storm, and then the guy flies through the air in engineering. Oh yeah, and then should they cut to two mockies like minor injuries, oh my god.
01:03:05
Speaker
I guess he landed well, cause he flew from like the gangplank across the war core. He landed on the 13 other people who were injured. They were right underneath him. Holy shit. Maybe he belly flopped, so nothing got hurt, but I feel like you're breaking something. And if you fall wrong, it's going to be a major injury. Or maybe a broken back is a minor injury now in the 21st century. ah But that sequence I was like, oh my gosh, like when I saw the guy fly, i that was just so shocking to me. That was my exact one too, because I because i have the same reaction. but quo
01:03:39
Speaker
like maybe this is why you guys need mag boots this right here nobody should be flying through the air in engineering of all places like so this yeah in this episode made me go like you couldn't do this with every episode because they would never take the enterprise d into that It's too big. But Voyager is just small enough it could go into different places. And so the idea that Voyager could go in and then this cloud could really mess it up makes a lot of sense to me. But like they in the enterprise and next generation, they were sent in the shuttle. And that shuttle would have gotten yeah rinsed. yeah
01:04:15
Speaker
Yeah, it yeah, it would have, but they would have, they would have beamed them out just before the shuttle exploded. Exactly. And then something weird would have come back with them or some weird thing would have happened. Yeah. There we go. Some nebula being would have been in the shuttle and somehow got through the transporter beam and then infected them. Troy would have been transported in the data. It just would have been, who knows.
01:04:33
Speaker
ah we are true
01:04:37
Speaker
Data and Troy are on the shuttle because Troy is command level and she wants to get more experience. Well, or because she can she can empathically link with the cloud nebula. there we So she has to be there to say, we are friends, we are friends. And then they get blown up anyways. The other thing about the Nebula being is that in the moment when they are surfing through the circulatory system to find their way back to the cut, I was like, wow, it's gave me such flashbacks to Magic School Bus, which was my bread and butter growing up. One of the reasons why I became a scientist, because it just showed how cool and fun science can be. But it was a total flashback. I was like, I've seen this episode of Magic School Bus.
01:05:19
Speaker
They did this episode three times, but I remember the first time, and it was this. It was, let's get in let's get in Robbie's circulatory system. Let's see all the germs and all the antibodies attaching it. And I was like, you can't tell me they didn't get inspiration from Magic School Bus. You just can't. This was this was the episode. Or the movie, Innerspace. Or Innerspace, which is so much fun. Oh my gosh. That movie is so fun. What part of this will you teach at Starfleet Academy?
Science and Comedy in Star Trek
01:05:45
Speaker
I put that sometimes a nebula can be alive. And for that reason, we should have an extra scan for that. Because apparently their scan was like, oh, there's organic material. Well, now we know we should scan for that before we enter any nebula.
01:06:01
Speaker
I obviously Janeway, it's kind of a cheat. She says they're taught at the academy that a captain should keep a distance. So obviously keep taking that. But also I have to imagine until it's time to not keep a distance. I don't think Janeway is like breaking a not a command, but like a guideline set to captains. I think the circumstances demand you adjust to them, you adapt to them, which is what they would be learning sometimes the nebulas are alive but sort of like you can't approach you cannot assume anything when approaching a spatial phenomenon it may ah present as a nebula but you need to determine yeah
01:06:42
Speaker
Yeah, I like that too. That's also the Picard versus Jellico, right? That like sometimes there's a captain, there's time to be a a distant captain who's like follow orders. But then there's times to be like season one Picard was awful. He was like very not warm and fuzzy at all. But when you get through the seasons, you just he becomes a somebody you respect and you trust and you, you know, you believe in you want to follow. He's like a mentor and all of those things.
01:07:06
Speaker
And you're absolutely right. Like that's also part of leadership. It can't just be Jellico all day, all night. Cause there's no trust there. They're made clients, but there's no loyalty. There's no, I'm going to trust you if you take us into a dangerous situation that you're doing what's best for us and you're going to get us out. Like there's none of that. So that's interesting. Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better? Uh, no was creep. We know.
01:07:30
Speaker
This show does not have our trust when it comes to horniness. At least not by episode six. No. ah So we are interested that they're saying that this bar, that's horniness. And ah is that sex lemon? It's like, no, it's weird. It's a little off putting and we need Janeway to come in. and For me, it's all that it's the Neelix and Kes kissing. I was just like, eww. The Neelix and Kes kissing is tough.
01:07:57
Speaker
It's at least. He's condescending to her and her response is, let me make it all better for you. And it's like, OK. And the tweet to that would have simply been when she said what she said, I'd be looking over in Iraq, is that actually makes him go, you're right. Or like, I'd rather, well, if I was doing it with you, then maybe I wouldn't sound so grumpy. Exactly. That was the one thing it's missing. And that's all it has to turn. But it's yeah like. And then it would have been sweet, actually. Yes. Then you can tell when it's the writer.
01:08:25
Speaker
inserting their thoughts on something and this is also the value of yes-anding which is a comedy idea of like you create comedy by agreement like yes and okay so this is your premise yes and this and so sometimes especially like the 90s trek you can see it's just a bunch of grouchy men nagging their way through stuff and it just If you watch every episode of Star Trek, as you and I have, it just gets annoying. Like everyone approaches things the same way because it's the writers approaching it the same way. And usually it's the showrunner who's writing them this way so other writers can't really find an idea. What if Neelix was kind in this moment? Because it's like that's it's the showrunners call. So I don't know. It's a bit of a bummer. But you're totally right. ah With most of the time with Voyager, I'm going to say no, or if it is, it should be like
01:09:20
Speaker
Janeway specific. So we off off mic, we talked about Fairhaven. And I'm like, yes, great. Right. Horny. Good. So Brian said that, um, this that that Janeway is basically Subrosa for Janeway, which is true. But I said, the difference is the hologram wasn't also screwing her grandmother. um But yeah, it is her chance to like get cut
Controversies and Creative Reviews
01:09:43
Speaker
loose and get wild. And it's like, yes, this is You know, I actually heard from a ah group of friends of mine that are um TrekTubers, so they're also on YouTube and they talk about Star Trek, who are very much against that whole idea of Jane and me hooking up with the hologram. And they're like, I can't believe people actually agree with this. And they actually, you know, I can't believe the the doctor encouraged her to to do that or whatever. And I was like, is this the first character you've ever heard of hooking up with a hologram because this is not new?
01:10:09
Speaker
What's the argument? Somehow the argument was it was inappropriate, but I'm not sure why it was inappropriate, especially, especially, ah especially for Janeway, who the doctor says, you can't hook up with anybody in the crew without it being weird because like you're you know because you're an authority figure. And so that power dynamic is always going to be in the relationship, which just makes it weird.
01:10:30
Speaker
So I'm just like this is this is really her only outlet and like I mean everything the doctor said he was like or else you have to hook up with Random aliens that we come across with on occasion like How is that supposed to work? So, I don't know but I had never before Conceived of the idea that somebody would be against Anyone hooking up with anyone of the holodeck because it's just a thing that we've been seeing ever since TNG So I don't know Yeah, I totally agree. So then Trek marry or kill the cloud. This is a kill for me. Oh, you're killing it. Yeah, I don't feel like this episode has a point. But I do think it has
01:11:11
Speaker
good ideas like living Nebula, I think is a great idea that they do bring back in different ways in the show in much more interesting episodes. But to your point of all we had to go with was the Nebula is alive. That's exactly what this episode feels like. Oh, let's say the Nebula is alive. What else can we do? I don't know. Walk down the hall talking about her mother's womb. It's just kind of like, I don't know. What about for you?
01:11:31
Speaker
I'll join you on the kill, but like a creative kill. This is like a kill of like, it was trying to do, it was trying to do like a skateboard stunt or a bike stunt and then just like fell and off a cliff or so yeah, face planted and whatever. So because they were trying things, you can't say this episode was lazy.
01:11:47
Speaker
No, it was great. discussion like they're They're trying different things. I think the fact that the cloud, all those visual effects don't even look good. I thought the score was kind of interesting. The direction was amazing. So that's in one way. I almost was like, this should be a trek just because This is like a really well-directed episode of Star Trek, very creatively directed as well. um Yeah, that's true. I agree. Not only does the visual effects of the cloud not look good, I think the Sandrine set, and I think the cast have talked about this, it's not a good set. It's dark and dingy, which is a very strange um
01:12:23
Speaker
way to add on to your gray tones of the ship and you're in space. And like it would the suggestion ought to be like, wouldn't you go into something bright to get away from where you are? And so it's just like the palette is very flat. The carolana looks kind of silly, like they haven't figured out the makeup entirely. Yeah, they were still working on the forehead and the hair style, just like poor Worf took a yeah a little while to yeah adjust.
01:12:50
Speaker
I thought Neelix actually looked better in this episode than he does in the Phage, which I really think now, we've really settled on this. This had to have been somewhere... Concedo first. Something happened. I don't know why the records don't reflect this, but this feels like it was made before the Phage.
01:13:08
Speaker
or before phage there's un There's no question. It's just very strange. Yeah, it's weird. Uh, but yeah, so I, I created kill. I was going to give it like a soft trick, but I think you're right. Ultimately, it's not about more than the clouds alive. And what else have we got? I did not like the direction was great. The direction was really great. Some of the scenes choices, like the one you mentioned with the doctor in the back being muted was beautiful. And we never see something that dynamic again. We go back to just like the face forward, you know, from the view screen backwards and, or from back to the view screen and that's it. We don't get this angle ever again. So.
01:13:44
Speaker
and i just think I think it's actually funny when it's trying it's trying to be funny and it is funny. It's not cringe funny. Is it like super hard punch lines? No, but it it is funny. We have that shocking gasp of the guy falling off the catwalk and all that stuff. of like the The part of this episode that I think is another point in its favor, which is why I was going to give you a soft check of like, compared to all the episodes of Star Trek that are out there, this is by no means a ah Terrible, terrible episode. And if this was like, if this was like episode six or so episode five of Strange New Worlds, though, I'm just I'm like thinking of things subjectively or like comparatively. And season one, there are better episodes. I'm fine with killing this one.
01:14:28
Speaker
But if this was like in one of the new shows, this people would be talking this one way up because ah it would potentially set up so many things and there was so much excitement and we got to see the characters interacting with each other. But we're kind of, I think we're kind of making the point of like, what works now for, what works now for Trek is something that we are saying it was like,
01:14:51
Speaker
an effort that came up short in old Trek. Trek was better in a lot of ways. I agree with you. this is like I'm fine with experimenting on a show that's trying to find its footing. I think a lot of the shows today are getting that grace even later in their runs because there are so much there are so fewer episodes now that people are willing to extend that grace. And I'm kind of of the opinion like,
01:15:18
Speaker
You've got 900 episodes to start before you to see what works and what doesn't. It's been field tested. You're getting $15 million. dollars We're getting 10 episodes once a year. Make them count. Like you doing your experimental early in the run episode doesn't make sense in that context. That's what I'm getting at. that's whereas Whereas here it does because we'll try again next week.
01:15:43
Speaker
26 episodes. yeah It's just like on for almost the entire year. So it's like, well, that didn't work. Or, oh, that was good. Yeah, that's interesting. Huh? Think about it. This was a Strange New Worlds episode. This would be like, that was a great episode. It was so funny. And the the cloud would obviously look better and exciting.
Modern vs. Past Star Trek Viewing Experience
01:16:00
Speaker
And like, what about when we explore we and we turn over the wrong rock, like we're upsetting and natural habitats? You know what I mean? Like, it would this episode does not speak to any of that. But people, because we get one, we get 10 episodes popped in the middle of the year. And that's all we get. People will have to amp these up to make them more than what they are.
01:16:20
Speaker
And it's like, no, sometimes they are just the cloud. they that You know, that's really interesting. I didn't think about that, the psychology of that, knowing that you have so many episodes. So if if you see an episode that's not good, which I don't think this episode is, ah to your point, it's not a bad episode. It just to me is not a very good episode. Yeah, this is not those kills where it's like watch it once and for don't worry about it. Yeah, it's not actively bad though. It's not like this episode made me so angry or anything like that. It's just kind of like meh. um But yeah, if there's only 10 episodes, you do psychologically have to if you like the show, you have to really pump it up because
01:16:55
Speaker
it's gotta sustain you for so long. Like the joy has to sustain you. So you have to add, you have to infuse in so much more enthusiasm so that you can make it to the 10th episode and then make it to the next season, which is gonna be a year from now. That's a really a new point.
01:17:13
Speaker
This is why I love having you on the show because you and I now on that point occupy either sides of the fence because I'm a person who's like, your time is valuable. We only have one life. Don't waste your time doing that. And your and your thing is like, no, this is how you create community and you you enjoy the things that you enjoy. don't I'm just like, I'm going to forget about it and move on and hope they do better next week.
01:17:38
Speaker
I'm not going to dwell on this because I didn't enjoy it and try to make myself enjoy it. It's like, no, they didn't. They struck out next week, maybe we'll be better. And if not, I'm going to forget about the show until it comes on next year and see what happens. Yeah, I can't do the weekly thing. I mean, I'm doing it now with a couple of shows because friends have um obligated me. But typically, I don't do the week to week anymore because that feels so 90s.
01:18:01
Speaker
And I'll have patience. And it's so disappointing when the episode's bad. And I remember back to my childhood when the episode was bad, even when you get 26 episodes and you're going to get another one next week. You got to wait all the way till next week to get the next one. I agree with you. And this is why I think Paramount Plus for being a brand that's like, we're going to build off of Star Trek, the stupidest thing they did, which they finally have gotten away, they finally gone back to. I agree with you. But what was the promise of every for every masks?
01:18:30
Speaker
or whatever of next generation. Well, I'm going to see a preview for next week's episode. Right. That was something you could look forward to. Right. And maybe that would be good. It would trick you into thinking next week's going to be good.
01:18:43
Speaker
And then they they finally started doing that again. I think they started doing it in Strange New Worlds in season at some point. But I remember in Picard, they were definitely doing it. I'm like, thank you. If anything needed to do that, it was the next generation revival. It's like, you got to put it right at the end because you got to give us promise of like, come back. Yeah, you got to promise us, no matter how you felt about this episode, the next one's going to be awesome. And you're like, okay, well, I want to watch it. And then you have a little more impetus. I know when I got to Picard season two, I was like, I'm out, but I was watching it with friends. So like, I had to show up every week and watch it with them. I mean, I didn't have to, but I chose to. um
01:19:20
Speaker
But like, I would think I was like three episodes in and I was like, I'm good. Had I been watching it by myself, I would have been done. I'm not showing up week after week, I maybe would have waited till all the episodes were out and then done a binge to see if it got better. But um yeah, so I'm just saying I'm not as kumbaya as it sounds like if ah if a show is not catching me, I'm out because there's so many shows in the world. But if you are committed to a show, and you only get 10 episodes,
01:19:44
Speaker
then I feel like you are you're going to try to squeeze as much juice out of it as you can because you're committed to the show and you only get so much. And so you really have to like appreciate it.
Upcoming Episodes and Social Media Plug
01:19:56
Speaker
We will be back next week with the next episode, remarkably, Eye of the Needle. But you don't have to wait for next week to hear Charisse because she's she's everywhere. Where can they find you, Charisse?
01:20:08
Speaker
you can find me everywhere. If you type in at the sci-fi Savage, I'm on all the platforms except for Pinterest and Twitter. Um, just because I don't know how to work either of those platforms. Um, and not really LinkedIn. So anyways, you can find me on Instagram, Facebook, and Tik TOK, but where I will be hanging out to chat with you live is on YouTube. Type in at the sci-fi Savage and you can join the weekly Savage stream where we talk all things Star Trek.
01:20:35
Speaker
We're TrekmarryKPod on social media and trekmarrykillpod.com on the web where you can see all of our standings, see how many voyagers we've trek married and killed over our