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Zachary Zane, "Professional Bisexual"
2.2k Plays5 years ago
Two Bi Guys is created and hosted by Alex Boyd and Rob Cohen
Logo art by Kaitlin Weinman
Music by Ross Mintzer
Season 2 is executive produced by Rob Cohen and produced by Alex Boyd and Moxie Peng, with support from IFP
Zach Zane's Men's Health Column: https://www.menshealth.com/author/15962/zachary-zane/
Zach's blog, "Zach and the City": https://www.queermajority.com/zach-and-the-city
Links to Zach's other writing: https://zacharyzane.substack.com/p/boyslut-with-zachary-zane-8
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Guest
00:00:12
Speaker
Hi, welcome to Two Bye Guys. I'm Alex. And I'm Rob. And we are super excited today. We're coming in with the third episode of season two with Zach Zane. Super excited to have Zach here now to chat about all kinds of things that he's been writing about in his work. So great to have you, Zach.
Zach Zane's Work and Influences
00:00:29
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on the show. I'm super excited. I think we were scheduled to interview you in person like the week after quarantine officially started, so I'm glad it's happening finally.
00:00:44
Speaker
Well, so to give a quick intro to Zach's work, Zachary Zane is a Brooklyn-based columnist, speaker, activist, and sex expert whose work focuses on sexuality, lifestyle, and culture. He currently writes for the Washington Post, Rolling Stone, and Prevention. He was formerly a digital associate editor of Out magazine and a contributing editor at
00:01:05
Speaker
Pride.com Plus Magazine and The Advocate Magazine. And he's been featured in numerous other publications as well,
Zach's Role and Experiences in Sexuality Media
00:01:12
Speaker
including Playboy, NBC, Self, Allure, Days to Ask Men, Slate, Into Them, Cosmo, Hornet, New Now Next, LGBTQ Nation, Mary Jane, and Bustle. So all over the frigging place, which is glorious. Five representation.
00:01:30
Speaker
can you just do that over and say it with only the things where zach hasn't written it yeah i didn't expect you uh yeah i didn't expect you to read all of them i just thought you were gonna hit the the main fuse there but that was uh sure go for it you're everywhere
00:01:47
Speaker
Well, aside from writing too, as a leading bi-activist, Zane has also spoken across the country at universities, panels, like discussing issues pertaining to the bisexual community, sex positivity, and ethical non-monogamy. So I'm sure there's countless more. That feels like we're just applauding all of the work and all of the representation that you've got.
00:02:08
Speaker
Yeah, that was a lot. But I didn't expect all that. But yeah, so right now, mainly kind of what I'm focusing on is I have my sexplain it column at men's health, which is a sex advice column. And that's happening weekly. I also have a column at queer majority.
00:02:24
Speaker
which is like a sister site to bisexual.org and that's Zach in the city. It's a little less exciting honestly during coronavirus but it's about my whole love life and romantic life living in New York City going out all the time which obviously has changed the vibe of the column slightly. More so just reminiscing about the past and what I learned from that at this point.
00:02:45
Speaker
And then kind of the last thing, and I gotta get this plug in, but I'm a brand advisor for Promescent, which actually has this premature ejaculation spray that's kind of amazing that I use whenever I get a little too excited or like the first time I hooked up, actually like recently actually had sex for the first time in a couple months. And I use that because otherwise I would have came immediately because I was so fucking horny.
00:03:10
Speaker
Uh,
Understanding Bisexual Identity in College
00:03:11
Speaker
so, you know, that's also a fun little, just, it's a helpful tool to have in your back pocket. And that's like the pre-messon premature ejaculation spray. So. Cool. This is not where I was planning on starting the interview, but you get to like try out lots of cool products in your line of work. Don't you? Like I've seen you promoting butt plugs and all these kinds of, that's kind of exciting. I'm jealous of you.
00:03:34
Speaker
it's I get at this point like also just a box with sex toys from like a PR person and they won't they won't have emailed me and told me it was coming I had no idea and it's like unmarked so it's unclear they don't like leave a letter or anything but it's just like getting these anonymous boxes of sex toys in the hopes that I write them up which I think is like
00:03:54
Speaker
Pretty hilarious and I always now now I have like a gift bag. So for ones that I don't try out For friends birthdays. I'm like, oh, I gotta give them something. Okay, what sex toy do I think they'll like? And then I wrap it up and give it to them
00:04:07
Speaker
That's an amazing perk. Okay, to anyone out there who's listening, the two bi guys are totally willing to try out any sex toys you send us and we'll talk about it on the show. Okay, moving on. Well, maybe we can start Zach with a little bit of chat about kind of where you came to a bi identity from, kind of what your bi identity means to you and kind of where you're at right now.
00:04:32
Speaker
Sure, yeah. In terms of me personally, I think I was always definitely, I had much more like traditionally gay mannerisms going up, especially the interest and the limp wrists and like there's this picture of me in a rainbow speedo when I'm like seven years old and I know my parents did not buy it for me. That means I insisted
00:04:52
Speaker
Like, they would have bought me board shorts. I insisted that they buy me this rainbow speedo. And I really liked musical theater. I also liked water polo, which is objectively the gayest sport, maybe that in wrestling. But, uh, so, like, all I'm doing is, like, half naked touching men under the pool.
00:05:08
Speaker
But there was always kind of this idea that I potentially was gay or attracted to men. But the thing is, I know I was attracted to women. And that was always something that was clear and very prominent. And I'd had my heart broken by women. And I would daydream about women. And I would be masturbating to images of women and all this stuff. So because of that, I was like, well, I'm definitely not gay. And especially in high school,
00:05:37
Speaker
I just did not think bisexuality really existed in men. And then I got to college and I went to Vassar, which is a very queer-friendly school for sure. And the second week of school I'm like, I'm going to hook up with a guy. It's something that's been on my mind, I want to try it.
00:05:55
Speaker
It wasn't as conscious as of a decision as that. It's more like, I'm gonna get hammered and then maybe this will happen, but in order to have the confidence and be open and willing to hook up with a guy, I had to get so plastered to the point where we were making out and he was blowing me and I left in the middle of it to go vomit, which I didn't even tell him.
00:06:16
Speaker
I did that like multiple times. And so the next morning I'm there, I'm hungover, I feel like death. And I'm like, yeah, I don't, I did not enjoy this experience. I don't think I'm gay. I don't think I'm bi. I don't care for this. And really what I learned, you know, years later was it wasn't that it was because he was a man. It's just because I was so uncomfortable and I got so drunk that like, I did not enjoy the experience. I also don't enjoy hooking up with women when I'm also blackout and hammered. That's not fun either.
00:06:47
Speaker
but so i'd like okay i'm straight but then throughout college i continuously hooked up with men consistently when i was drunk i'd wake up very i'd wake up some mornings when i super hung over and saw that i watched gay porn the night before like on the computer and like well that's pretty gay but
00:07:03
Speaker
I remember talking to my brother and I'd been now hooking up with guys and girls for five years and I'm like, you know, I'm still experimenting. And he goes, Zach, you know, I experimented a little bit in college too, but I did not experiment for five years. At some point that is a stable identity. That's no longer experimentation. And when he said that, I kind of erupted in laughter, but I'm like, yeah, this is definitely
00:07:28
Speaker
a little bit more than experimentation. So I ended up seeing an LGBTQ affirming therapist when I moved to Boston after college, and it was on our second session. I'm kind of like launched into this confusion about being gay or straight, where he interrupts me and he goes, you sound bi. I don't know why you keep saying that you're confused. I said, does bisexuality actually exist in men? And his response was, Zach, you're too smart to think that.
00:07:55
Speaker
The thing is, everyone I knew in college, every man I knew in college that came out as bi, came out as gay shortly after. So like, every personal experience I had with male bisexuality, it was not a stable identity. It really did perpetuate that stereotype. And then also at the time,
00:08:12
Speaker
This was before, you know, I think the last, you know, 15 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, you search by a guy and what will come up is just studies about HIV. By slash gay men spreading HIV and that shit. And so it wasn't like it was a thing where you could Google it and see information on this.
00:08:33
Speaker
in my mind, like, there was just no visibility whatsoever. I didn't know anyone personally that I identified as bi, so I just did not think it was real until I had this therapist who was like, yeah, no, it's definitely real, and you really do fit it to a T right here. Although at the time,
00:08:49
Speaker
I believed that I was only, like,
Accepting Bisexuality and Community Insights
00:08:51
Speaker
bi, dash, sexual, and hetero-romantic, right? Yeah, so meaning, like, I could only have sex with guys and girls, but I didn't want to date them. But I think that was also due to some internalized homophobia and some confusion that I had at the time when I realized I could start and equally date and love men the way I had women.
00:09:11
Speaker
Yeah, and that kind of happened. But really it was through this therapist and then after he kind of granted me permission to embrace that label, it was very quick for me to embrace that label myself. Awesome. Yeah, what a therapist to have. I mean, like, seriously, I feel like there's like millions of men over out there who like need that therapist. Right. It's really crucial experience.
00:09:33
Speaker
And I'm lucky and I kind of knew it though. I specifically looked up for an LGBTQ therapist so that meant something, you know, and that's why I was able to find them and I knew because I think I just because I wanted to talk about my sexuality and my experiences with men that I did that but like Clearly I knew I knew I wasn't necessarily straight if I was specifically seeking this out.
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah, I'm nodding along with everything you're saying, because I identify so much with that story. And with like, also, I had the same experience going to therapy. It just didn't happen until I was like 31 or something years old. And it's interesting, your therapist said like, you're too smart to think that. Because like, in a way, I can understand that, because now it does seem so obvious to me that this is possible and it exists. And it's actually feels so natural and like,
00:10:23
Speaker
Why not? But there's so many signs we obviously get from from outside growing up that this is not a thing. So I can understand that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think one thing that strikes me right away about your story, too, is that that like going to college and wanting to hook up with a guy and like that being kind of like an expectation, like that you're going to have sex with men.
00:10:46
Speaker
And like, I've talked about it plenty on this podcast. I came to New York ready to hook up with any women that would have me, right? Like, so very similar kind of framing. And I feel like what that points to is like a quota, right? Like, is that like by quota that we're, we're feeling, did that kind of continue? Did that kind of expectation, that desire to like target a specific gender?
00:11:07
Speaker
No, I mean, I only was targeting this just because I had never had it. And my school was not like, there's one kid in my entire high school of 600 who came out as gay, like during which like, it was just not like a gay friendly place, you know, you would avoid group in Los Angeles, still just kind of the culture of the time, as it still is, you know, but I think
00:11:32
Speaker
you know, this is a little bit of time ago. And so I just like, I think it's something that I wanted to do for so long. And now I'm like, okay, I'm in a place to do this. It's no way getting back to my friends or my family. I don't know anyone like might as well. I'm out of college. There's a lot more people here. But the quota, I wouldn't necessarily call it a quota. I think for me, it was just, I feel safe experimenting here.
00:11:55
Speaker
But to answer your question more directly, I mean, they're definitely, and I see that among, you know, when people struggle identifying as bi, when they're like, well, I don't hook up with enough.
00:12:06
Speaker
women or i don't hook up with enough men to be bi and of course i'm like you know it's not a matter of how many people you have hooked up with at all you know you can be completely monogamous and also bisexual you know it's but like i think there is definitely a pressure in order to justify bisexuality to be more quote-unquote 50-50 but i think
00:12:26
Speaker
I think now, and I mean there's so much messaging that I push and other bi-activist push just being like, it literally does not matter. You can be significantly more attracted to one gender than other genders. You can hook up with more genders than other genders. It's completely fine.
00:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. And I also like identify with what you were talking about in the story about like, you knew you were attracted to women, but then you had these others desires. And for me, a lot of times that made me question myself so much in like a tough way where like, I would attribute a lot of things to gender that might have been due to the situation like the situation you were in, you're drunk and blackout and like puking.
00:13:03
Speaker
so it's not going to be a great hookup those are the kind of things like i've had that with women where it wasn't good and then i'm like wait do i like women but i it not everything that happens is related to the gender of the partner there's so many other factors and the more i learned about that the less gender mattered and i
00:13:23
Speaker
opened up to both sexual and romantic experiences. I had the same experience you had too, where like, at first it seemed like just sex for me. And then once I kind of broke that barrier, and I got to be intimate with men, I was like, this is so similar to, you know, why not have a relationship also? What's the real difference? It's so difficult, and I hear you saying this, to not overthink and overanalyze everything. So by the end, like it was just,
00:13:52
Speaker
You have no idea what you're feeling. You have no idea what your attractions are because you can overthink and over-intellectualize everything. Even in terms of just like the deniability I gave myself from identifying as bi was always, you know, being drunk or I was just horny or a hole's a hole was literally something I did tell myself.
00:14:12
Speaker
you can't and that's what makes it so difficult because this is something you've been anxious about for so long this is something you've analyzed for so long that when you're in the moment you can't truly experience it you're just overthinking everything and i mean for me i had so many sleepless nights where like
00:14:28
Speaker
I felt like I was this like AI robot that just gained like conscious being like, what am I? Like, what is this? And like the way, yeah, you can kind of think yourself or talk yourself out of anything or also into anything. But yeah, I would think I was gay and then straight and then gay and then straight and kind of go back like that. And yeah, it started questioning my attractions, the relationships I had with certain women and certain when was this real? Was this valid? Were these my true feelings? And when you start doing that,
00:14:58
Speaker
You kind of go down a slippery slope. Same, same. One of the first things that broke me out of all that confusion was when I finally like, well, first of all, I started watching porn, like you said. And I would not really think about it when I was doing it. I was just like, I want to watch this. And then as I started to watch more and more gay porn, I was like, maybe this means something. And then I would start googling it and trying to find resources and read stuff. And you're right, like there wasn't that much stuff
00:15:27
Speaker
ten years ago or even five years ago. And then I remember you're a little bit younger than me. I'm a little bit older than you but not much and I think I sort of started coming out right after you did because I remember reading some of your writing like in 2016-ish, 2017. And the more I read and heard from real bisexual people the more you realize it's real and it's validating and then meeting real people was helpful too. But
00:15:57
Speaker
but the writing is so helpful. Yeah, and I've had so many friends from college, not even friends' acquaintances, since reach out being like, hey, I'm actually bi too, and my experience mirrored yours, and I also just have plenty of friends not from college, just plenty of people reaching out, just being like, holy shit, I was so alone.
00:16:14
Speaker
And I thought my experience was so unique and no one was going through what I was going through until I read your work, until I read your articles. And I kind of realized that like, and through my writing, and there's some famous author or someone who wrote like, but whatever you think is most personal is probably most universal or something like that. Like I kind of butchered the quote.
00:16:33
Speaker
But yeah, I realized, you know, all these unique, specific, special things I thought was only happened to me were literally happening to like millions with an M of men, like across the fucking world. Yeah, I mean, for me, it always comes down to the fact that like,
00:16:49
Speaker
nobody else is being told like straight and gay people aren't being told that that might not exist or being like forced to question the validity of it in the first place right so we're just not taught at an early age to see it as an option right and then like you have a therapist who just like hands this label to you and says like of course it's valid and like it seems like that's the turning point that's kind of common to so many bi journeys that I hear
00:17:11
Speaker
It's also we're seeing more and more people identify as bi or fluid or pan. Like every year it's like 5% more. It's like these huge numbers that are coming out. And I don't think it's because... Well, I think it's a couple reasons. I think one is, you know, a lot of people did quote unquote pick
Becoming a Bisexual Activist
00:17:31
Speaker
a side because they did not have options and they were living their life. And now that bisexuality is an option, people are more okay choosing it.
00:17:39
Speaker
And I think, you know, a lot of people hate the word bisexual or bi. And I used to be someone who was so vehemently just like, fuck it, embrace this label. This is so annoying that you don't. And why do we have all these other labels when we really have one label that's fine where bisexual is inclusive of all genders, it's inclusive of all orientations, it's inclusive of not necessarily liking someone to the same degree or only being physically attracted. Why do we need words like pan, fluid, polysexual, omnisexual, ambisexual?
00:18:08
Speaker
What else? There's like some other ones where I'm just like, like, come on. And I would get frustrated by that. I think, and I've learned to get less frustrated by that. Why am I getting frustrated? I think it just, in my mind, I felt like it was a little bit of by erasure. But I think now because we do have more terms, we're having more people feeling more comfortable embracing their attractions to multiple genders or all genders. And at the end of the day, that is the most important thing in whatever word you have to help
00:18:36
Speaker
get you there and whatever you feel proud of, absolutely claim that label. I think it was just frustrating for me when I thought we had this label and especially when people, there was a point where people started telling me I was transphobic because I, being bisexual, perpetuate the binary. Well, first of all, when you say that, I'm like, then you're implying that trans women aren't women. So you're the ones who are being transphobic. If anything, you can make the claim that doesn't include non-binary people. That would actually be your only valid claim.
00:19:03
Speaker
which is just not true. I mean, like, so many of my part- I'm very attracted to non-binary people a lot, like, actually, and I feel like in a weird way it does satisfy my attraction to multiple genders in a problematic, potentially problematic way, but like, when people say this, and I think that's why I also got frustrated by these growing number of labels because they were in a way diminishing my label, but now that I'm seeing people embrace all these other labels in a way that does not diminish my label,
00:19:31
Speaker
then I'm completely fine with you identifying, obviously, however you please, whatever makes you happy. Yeah, totally. And also, as long as people, you know, come together as a community and now there's a push, or I'm not necessarily a push, but I'm seeing more by plus as kind of the overarching label, and that works too. You know, honestly, anything works, but as long as we are just together in a community, that's really all that I want. Agree. Totally.
00:20:03
Speaker
So I'm curious, you know, you've talked a lot about kind of how you came to the by label, how you like started owning that label. Now you're a by activist writing in all of these places, like where did that trajectory come from? And kind of what drew you to the work that you're doing right now?
00:20:18
Speaker
I got pushed there. I think I wrote this piece for Exo Jane, the first article I ever wrote. And I don't know if you remember like Exo Jane's, it's happened to me vertical, but it literally was like the most scandalous, over the top, ridiculous type like things where you'd be like sharing your heart and soul. Like I had an abortion and did a ritual witch experiment with the fetus would be something like that. Or I hate my children. I remember that was one of them just being like, I hate my kids.
00:20:48
Speaker
That's a headline right there, like something like that. But the whole point is you kind of have the most scandalous thing, but the thing I wrote was I came out as bi and now can't date anyone gay or straight, which is definitely a hyperbolic title. I definitely date gay people. I really don't date straight women at this point. I definitely only date bi or pan women, if I'm being honest.
00:21:07
Speaker
I do date gay men and queer people. But yeah, anyway, so I wrote this piece and it just went super viral. It's something where it got like, I don't remember, I was like 25,000 shares or 50,000 shares and 150,000 or 250,000 people read it. And it just showed that there was this lack and this need for this bisexual voice and specifically a bi male voice.
00:21:29
Speaker
And after that, Pride.com, which is the sister site out in the advocate, we're just starting up, and it was like an LGBTQ buzzfeed in essence. And they're like, hey, we're trying to get a range of voices, and if you want to be a male bisexual voice, we would love that.
00:21:49
Speaker
I didn't even think I necessarily wanted to be writing articles at this time, but then I was like, screw it, let's do this, and I did, and kind of from that, you know, the way branding works and all that stuff, it's just like, okay, then be known as the bi guy and do that. Like, I've had success in doing that. If you Google bi man or bi guy right now, I think I'm probably like five of the ten articles that probably come up on the first page of Google and all subsequent pages.
00:22:18
Speaker
And I'm just, I was so lonely and so unhappy and so confused and so miserable, just consumed with my identity for so long. And so it makes me happy that I'm able to do this rather selfishly. I feel like it makes me feel good to help other people and specifically by people. And so
00:22:37
Speaker
I like doing this, and what I love now is I start making a push to not just write bisexual content for queer publications, but to write it for straight publications, and I think a lot of these straight
00:22:49
Speaker
men need it more, you know, and they're not, they're not necessarily going to be going to out or pride.com, but they will go to a place like men's health.com or men's health magazine, you know, they'll be able to feel comfortable reading something about by curiosity in this publication where they might, you know, it could have been just, they've been following men's health and an article came up versus they just wouldn't have found that elsewhere. So I love that I'm now being given a platform and able to share my voice on more straight
00:23:17
Speaker
leaning are not queer specific publications. It's interesting you brought that up because we've talked a lot lately about how like that section of straight identified men who might be interested in a little bit of fluidity whatever to whatever extent is like a much bigger group than anyone realizes and so like I do think you're right that it's important to reach that group and
00:23:40
Speaker
It seems that it's hard to let go of that straight identity if you're only a little bit on the bisexual spectrum. And so I guess, I don't know, what do you try to teach to that group? Has your writing changed since you started writing for that kind of audience?
00:23:57
Speaker
I think in a way, are you right more about openness and maybe less of a focus on a bisexual identity? Because I think them claiming bi, even though they easily could and they do qualify as bi, is too intimidating. Exactly.
00:24:12
Speaker
You know, the thing that sucks about the bilabel, and I understand this, is because it is so broad and inclusive, it's also being like, I'm bisexual, but honestly, I'm only physically attracted to men and just want to sleep with them once in a blue moon. Like, you have to have that caveat. You can't just say, oh, if I'm bisexual, people automatically assume 50-50, both for sexual and romantic. So it's often, I'm bisexual, and this is what this word means to me. And which is,
00:24:41
Speaker
In a way, I think definitely a limitation of the label and why we're seeing so many different labels because that is a limitation of the label, right? That's why we're having these more specific labels. So I think for these men just being like, hey, you might not be gay, you might be bi, you might or might not, but that really doesn't matter. Let's focus on your attractions and let's see what you like here and let's figure that out.
00:25:04
Speaker
You know, if a label helps you feel more comfortable with your identity, which it was 100% for me, then claim it. If it helps you feel part of a community, then absolutely claim it. But I'm not going to force you to identify as bi just because you periodically like hooking up with guys. The choice at the end of the day is yours. Although of course, you are always welcome to claim the label. I love that. Well put.
00:25:28
Speaker
it's more important about kind of validating what can happen sort of thing and like reducing the shame than like yeah then like growing is selfishly just like growing our bi community just for the sake of people being more like us right because like maybe they're not like that bi label could never serve a purpose maybe for someone who just wants to hook up with men right like if a man just wants to hook up with a man like once a year what is the purpose of that bi label at that point
00:25:55
Speaker
And that's something I've definitely changed my mind on over my years in activism. Because if I said this earlier, I would have been like, this is by a razor. This is a guy who has internalized biphobia. And that's why he's not claiming the label. Or I bet you he'd be more interested in men if he claimed the label and therefore he's not doing it. Like I would, years ago, I would have disagreed with what I'm saying now. And I think it.
00:26:17
Speaker
comes to a little bit of what you said, Alex, just like, you know, not necessarily, okay, it's not
Polyamory and Bisexuality
00:26:23
Speaker
just about me. And yes, I want to grow the bi community and God, I'm all for perpetuating and any bi agenda there is out there. Absolutely. But like, all right, let's focus on this individual. And at the end of the day, I want a label that brings them joy and security and happiness and freedom. So whatever that, whatever that is for them.
00:26:45
Speaker
That's awesome. I love that evolution. Thank you. This might be a little bit of a shift from where we're at, but something that you write out a lot about, and maybe I'm interested to hear kind of where your thoughts are today, I guess. Where does like polyamory is a big aspect of the bi community, whether it's because we're being assumed to be polyamorous or whether we are. But I'm curious what you see as kind of the cross between those two communities and where you feel like polyamory either personally or kind of broadly.
00:27:14
Speaker
Where is that conversation for bi folks right now? I wrote a piece for Rolling Stone maybe a couple years ago, and I think it's called Who Really Practices Polyamory? And the studies show that bi people are more likely to be polyamorous. And I think that makes sense in terms of in order to embrace your bisexuality, you are embracing an openness, you don't necessarily believe in heteronormative
00:27:36
Speaker
labels and identities and constructs and relationships. So I think if you're able to embrace your bisexuality and that fluidity there, I don't think it makes sense that you'd be more likely to embrace the fluidity of relationships. So it does make sense that more bi people are poly. Again, not all bi people, not even 50% of bi people. I have to look at the research.
00:27:58
Speaker
But yeah, but still just a little bit more by people than I think gay and straight. But one thing I try to focus on now, and I haven't written about this too much because it's pretty niche, but like the difference between like by stereotypes that are inherently negative or evil and by stereotypes that are just alternative.
00:28:18
Speaker
So when you have things, being like bi people are more likely to be cheaters, bi people are more likely to spread STIs or HIV or bi people are liars or they're confused or they're greedy. Maybe confused actually isn't in there, but let's say greedy.
00:28:34
Speaker
These are all things that speak to someone's character. These are all things that say, like, this makes you a bad person. If you are lying, you are a bad person. If you are cheating, you are a bad person. And so I think those are negative stereotypes. And then there are the other stereotypes where bi people are polyamorous or they're slutty.
00:28:53
Speaker
And let's say those things aren't inherently negative. I don't think that being slutty doesn't make you a bad person. Being polyamorous doesn't make you a bad person. I mean, we live in a sex-negative society, so because that being slutty is perceived as being negative, but no, I'm extremely slutty. And I'm very proudly slutty.
00:29:11
Speaker
and my book is gonna be called Boyslide. So, you know, we have a lot of things, like, this is what it's about. So I think, you know, a part of it is differentiating between those two. That said, any stereotype, whether positive, negative, or neutral, is a stereotype, and we should, you know, steer clear from them. There was a time a few years back, and I haven't seen it as much as I Google stuff, whereas trying to perpetuate this, like, model bisexual of just being like, I'm monogamous, I've been in a marriage, I'm not looking for threesomes, I don't cheat,
00:29:40
Speaker
And it's just like, all right, good for you, Cheryl. Like, but as for the rest of us here, like, we're trying to get some dick, you know? And I think there is space, and we're seeing that there is space for this monogamous, married, more vanilla bisexual, and this more kinky, polyamorous, slutty bisexual. And I think as long as we don't put one on a pedestal, I think there's room and space for all of it.
00:30:07
Speaker
Right, exactly. I agree. And I was reading an interview you did with Robin Oakes, future podcast guest, and she was talking with you about how like, it's not each individual by person's job to dispel myths
00:30:23
Speaker
through their own actions or to not play into stereotypes like we all get to be whoever we are so if you're a slutty non-monogamous bi person that's totally fine even if that is plays into a stereotype like it's not your job to represent all bi people all the time it's just our job to be open and honest about who we are and share that and and to try to fight that invisibility a little
00:30:47
Speaker
Can you talk a little more about how polyamory is manifest in your life? And like, when did you start exploring that and what's it been like? Honestly, I now.
00:30:59
Speaker
would say more as much as we'd love it, with more ethically nominogamous than polyamorous. Okay, and explain the difference. Yeah, so just ethical nominog means more this umbrella term for any relationship that's not monogamous, and the ethical means you're not cheating, right? And polyamorous means that you're open to or currently dating and loving multiple people at the same time. Poly means many, amorous means love, right?
00:31:23
Speaker
I lived back in the day. I lived in Boston with my boyfriend, his wife, his wife's girlfriend, and his wife's boyfriend. And I did that in Somerville, which is now the first city to allow multi-person unions.
00:31:41
Speaker
So they're allowing, in essence, like polyamorous unions. It's the first city to do that. And in Somerville, it's literally, Somerville was like the most poly fucking place in the world. So it's like hilarious that that's that. Like everyone was poly in Somerville. It really was funny. Somerville, by the way, is like right next to Cambridge and Boston. It's in that area in case if you don't know. Yeah, so it's hilarious. But so I'm actually still close friends with my ex-boyfriend. We broke up very amiable.
00:32:07
Speaker
But the thing that I struggle with with polyamory, and this is not the case for other people, but I remember when I was dating Jason and living with him, I felt like my identity was reduced to being poly, and that was the only fucking thing in my life. All I did was talk about being poly,
00:32:24
Speaker
Every conversation you have when you say, I love my boyfriend, his wife, the conversation immediately turns to you. It's about your relationship and you're like, oh, what's going on here? And sometimes when you're meeting new people, I don't want to talk about myself. I don't want to have this conversation five million times. But it just seemed like everyone was very into being poly. And I'm like, I like being poly. I love it. And it was a very good for me, but that's not my sole identity. And so I struggled with that.
00:32:50
Speaker
And then also, it's a lot of communication. It's a lot of effort. You're taking into account the feelings and desires of multiple people, and it can 100% be worth it. And at the time when I did it, it was great. But also, our relationship, even though we were poly, it really manifested more like an open relationship.
00:33:13
Speaker
And that's how my relationships have been since then. Where you could call it poly, you could call it open, some people would be like, okay, you had a primary partner, and then you had multiple secondary or tertiary partners. So that's poly versus the way now I honestly describe it's like, I'm open, this is my boyfriend, and then we have people that we fuck.
00:33:31
Speaker
We have people we fuck together, we have people I fuck separately, and some of the people I fuck more than once and I go on dates with, but I wouldn't necessarily call that person a partner. Some poly people are really quick to call anyone a partner, or to be like, oh, I'm dating this person, versus for me, if I'm calling someone a partner, that usually is pretty serious. Like, that's as serious as it can be. This is my boyfriend, this is my partner, this is my girlfriend. So I don't call people that I'm dating partners. So, me and the relationships I've had since
00:34:00
Speaker
Jason and since being in that poly place, I would define as ethical nominogamous and it's definitely, I would describe it as an open relationship where I have a primary partner and then we date and fuck other people and we don't really have rules, but other people honestly might even consider this hierarchical poly. And all of this can change. The moment I say to myself, I'm not looking for this type of relationship is immediately when I find myself in that relationship, of course.
00:34:25
Speaker
But at this point, at least what I see the future holding for me is being in an open relationship, where I do have a primary partner.
Non-Monogamous Relationships and Societal Views
00:34:33
Speaker
I likely see that partner being a man, and the reason being is I very much like being a part of queer culture and gay culture, and I don't necessarily feel that same way when I date a woman. I can't bring my girlfriend to the eagle.
00:34:47
Speaker
For example, I can't bring her to the sex parties that I like to go to. I also don't like the fact that when I'm with her, I'm perceived as straight. I feel like I'm not part of the queer community. So I think at this point, it's more likely that I would date a man more seriously and have a boyfriend. However, many of the casual people I sleep with are likely to be both women and men.
00:35:10
Speaker
I loved what you wrote. I was reading recently about non-monogamy as a spectrum as opposed to like a binary because I think coming out as bi that's something I started thinking about is how many things we look at as binary that really aren't and Still monogamy was for a while the something that I thought of is like it is or it isn't like it's still very binary but I
00:35:34
Speaker
I read your thing and it made so much sense that it's a spectrum and that there's different levels to it and that younger people are especially seeing it that way more. I think, I mean, Dan Savage was just so good with coining monogamish. I think that really just set the tone about how monogamy can be in the spectrum. But I think also what really made room for it was the fact that people have different definitions of monogamy itself or not specifically monogamy, but what constitutes cheating. Yeah.
00:36:01
Speaker
So if you have that, so if you like, oh, it's sending nudes to someone else, cheating. If you're on Grindr, but you have a boyfriend, but you're not meeting up with anyone cheating, okay, if I just kiss someone, is that cheating? And then, you know, cheating can also be emotional versus physical cheating. And whenever you're caught cheating, you always downplay the one you did. So if you're emotionally cheating on that person, you're like, oh no, like we didn't actually physically have sex, so it doesn't matter. Or if you get caught having sex with someone,
00:36:29
Speaker
Oh, it doesn't matter. I didn't actually like her. I didn't love her. It was just sex. So you played it up to your advantage. But I think all this shows that our understanding of monogamy, our understanding of cheating, it was already so diverse and not binary in and of itself, right? So when you have all these things and all these room for different interpretations of what monogamy meant and hence what cheating meant, then clearly this was a spectrum.
00:37:00
Speaker
So I was going to ask, something that maybe in some conversations could almost be seen as the opposite of cheating in some ways, or and maybe is kind of the forgotten part of polyamory to me or open relationships, is this idea that you talk about in one of your articles that I read at Compersion, and the idea of enjoying your partner, a partner, having a relationship with somebody else, right? And like feeling your own kind of pleasure from that.
00:37:25
Speaker
Yeah, and I just want to say before answering that that you can absolutely cheat whether you're in an open or polyamorous relationship and people forget that where it's just like, no, if you break the rules of your relationship and you lie about it, you're cheating. But to this idea of comparison, I think it is just honestly the most purest
00:37:42
Speaker
form of joy. So, comparison, as you said, is just like feeling joy for your partner's relationship with someone else. And the idea is this is kind of the opposite of jealousy, an opposite emotion. And some people it comes to naturally, they just love seeing the person they love happy and whether it's with them or with someone else. But for other people it's a little, it's a little tougher, but I think, I think like everything else, it's a skill.
00:38:06
Speaker
You know, I think it's more innate if you practice actively. I hate the word mindfulness because I feel like it's thrown around and kind of void of any meaning at this point. But I think if there is a mindfulness in how you approach your relationship and how I want my partner to be happy, and this is making them happy, and that should make me happy. And I think if you think about this and really practice this,
00:38:28
Speaker
you're able to start feeling compression. I mean, and you know, I think compression also directly or I guess is inversely correlated right with jealousy, right? So if you're if you are jealous, or you're feeling insecure, you need to work on feeling more secure about your relationship before you're able to feel compression.
00:38:47
Speaker
But yeah, I think it's a great form. It's something I still struggle with too, you know, with my partners. Sometimes I see them and I feel like I'm missing out or I, you know, I get hurt, but I also know that I know that and that's okay and I feel it. And I'm like, hey, this is not what I want to be feeling right now. And I have no reason to believe my partner loves me any less or doesn't want to hang out with me or whatever it is. I'm going to be happy for my partner and making that conscious choice.
00:39:13
Speaker
Yeah, and for me, you know, in my experience anyways, I don't know if you find this true, but comparison for me is always a part of a relationship almost as opposed to like something that I've acquired and now can carry through every relationship for the rest of my life. Right? Like it's something almost that I've, you know, that you build with somebody.
00:39:30
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And anything that speaks to... Well, I think it's both. I think it's both, right? Because I was kind of saying that you can practice this on yourself and that's something that you can work towards. But obviously, how you feel in your relationship and how you feel towards that person is different depending on the relationship that you're in.
00:39:46
Speaker
So, yeah, it's something that you can work towards and work with with someone the closer you get with someone, the more you trust them, the more you love them, the more that you know they love you and trust you.
Balancing Bisexuality with Life
00:39:56
Speaker
Yeah, the more you can experience compassion in that relationship.
00:40:00
Speaker
It's interesting what you guys are saying because, like, Compersion to me was this thing that was very similar to bisexuality that, like, I didn't know it was a thing. And then when I heard what it was and had it defined and I knew it was a real thing, I was like, oh, that's me. I have felt Compersion. I didn't know what I was feeling, but that's it.
00:40:23
Speaker
And it just is something I've like felt and didn't have to work much for. But I also see what you guys are saying because I know I've dated people who that doesn't come naturally to them and, you know, jealousy bubbles up more. And so it is really interesting that it that it's something you could work on. That makes sense that it's like a mindful thing that you can practice and that you can develop together in a partnership.
00:40:48
Speaker
Yeah, and a brief aside real quick too from my experience that the idea of Compersion 2 for me, and I've talked to three or four people recently actually about this, who I am under the asexual umbrella too, and these other folks were too, and talking through them about kind of their feelings of Compersion for their partners and how it was almost, like I hesitate, it's the only term that's coming to mind, but it was almost kind of like a survival tool, like a survival tool for the relationship, like it just felt like
00:41:17
Speaker
If somebody doesn't want to have sex as much as their partner does, like they want to be able to their partner to be able to enjoy other people and therefore they want to be able to enjoy that. But I think that is to say that kind of this asexual community, this polyamorous community and the spy community are all kind of along the same kind of journeys.
00:41:38
Speaker
of trying to break down the expectations and more so in my opinion, and I'm like bias, but like building healthier kind of foundations for a relationship or having healthier tools for a relationship just ingrained in the fact that we aren't trying to adhere to a specific kind of identity, a specific kind of boxed in relationship in the same way. Yeah, and I think it goes back to kind of what I said about the reason why I think bi people are more likely to be poly. It's just like that you've been
00:42:08
Speaker
more introspective, you've been more open, you've been forced to think about this because what you are feeling and experiencing is not the norm and because of that you're able to embrace other things that might not be super traditional like things like compression. Yeah, totally.
00:42:25
Speaker
makes sense. You mentioned earlier that when you were in a polyamorous relationship, that that word sort of ended up defining you. And every conversation is about polyamory. Do you ever feel that way about bisexuality? Because I do sometimes for sure. Yeah, I mean, also when when you are
00:42:45
Speaker
And I hate this term as I do an eye roll here, but like a professional bisexual, right? When your job is to write about this. So it's like for me, it's not just like my identity. It's also like my job. It's also my relationships. It's also, so if I'm talking about my job, I'm talking about bisexuality. I'm talking about relationships. I'm talking about bisexuality. I'm talking about my family. I'm talking about how they're driving me crazy. So maybe that's the only thing that's different. But like, no, but even somehow with my family, I feel like bisexuality comes up, although they're pretty
00:43:13
Speaker
chill about it. I think in the beginning, there was a point where they were being so supportive that they wanted to keep asking about it. In a very supportive and loving way, I'm like, oh no, we can talk about other shit too. You guys are clearly supportive and great. Don't worry. You don't have to talk about this. I don't have to talk about this. We'll live.
00:43:32
Speaker
Yeah, it comes and goes you know kind of sometimes feeling this you know when that happens I try to Maybe write about bisexuality a little bit less Go out with my straight friends or whatever you know it's
00:43:47
Speaker
and go to a straight bar or whatever it is, you know, in certain ways so that you don't feel like my soul identity is being reduced to that. It's not
Impact of Quarantine on Dating
00:43:56
Speaker
that I'm pushing back. It's not that it's internalized homophobia or biphobia. It's just like, okay, sometimes I don't want to be talking about this or doing this right now. I just want another part of my identity to shine.
00:44:07
Speaker
Cool, yep, same. Let's talk a little about how love and relationships in quarantine are existing and what's changed and like, is it affecting your mental health? What are you doing to stay sane? And does your bisexuality still manifest in any way during this lockdown period? How do you stay in touch with it? I know, I guess you do, cause it's your job also, but like on a personal level, are there ways to stay in touch with it?
00:44:36
Speaker
It depends how much your bisexual identity is tied into your sex, your actual how much you have sex, for sure. I think if you're having sex with multiple different genders, and that is a way that you refer your reaffirm your bisexuality, which it is for me as well, then I can see how you might be feeling a little disconnected from your bisexuality. If you're monogamous and dating a woman, and that's what you've been doing all the time anyway, and you're still with her, your bisexual identity might not be feeling less prominent during COVID.
00:45:06
Speaker
And then what was the other question was something like, how is dating? How is life and dating? Yeah, like what's been going on for you with relationships during this? How have you been navigating it? That's a good answer. I got nothing like.
00:45:28
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not trying to date super seriously right now, which is a shame because I kind of am in a place to. I had a partner for about a year. We broke up in October. It usually takes me about
00:45:40
Speaker
four, five, six months. And then I'm like, okay, I'm ready to kind of date more seriously again. And that happened to coincide with COVID-19. I also think COVID-19 sped up that process a little bit where I'm like, okay, I'm a little lonely. This would be nice. Although one thing I always try to make for when I'm deciding whether I want to be a relationship or not is making sure I'm doing this not because, oh,
00:46:02
Speaker
I want someone to cheer me up when I'm sad or I'm lonely, but I want someone to share it in my joy with, right? Because sometimes it's like, I want to be in a relationship because I want to stop being sad or I want to, like, no, no, no, like, that's not why you do this. But, you know, there have been people I was chatting with, I feel like I have this, like, huge list of people who I've been, like, flirting with for forever where it's like, there's, like, 15 people I'm planning to have sex with now that, like, not now, but, like, once COVID is over and we can do this shit safely.
00:46:29
Speaker
Yeah, so you're flirting with people, you're getting excited by people. I did some virtual dates. I did the socially distant park date kind of recently where we had our masks on at the park and that was kind of nice. But also I'm fine being single, you know what I mean? Like a lot of people who are always consistently dating, I'm like, you know, take six months and not date. That's probably very healthy and very good for you.
00:46:53
Speaker
as opposed to adapting immediately to, okay, how can we date? How can we virtually, how can I do this? How can I have sex? It's like six months and you'll be fine. You'll live. Uh, you don't need a date. You don't need to have sex right now. Although I did just start having sex again and that's highly recommend.
Conclusion and Credits
00:47:08
Speaker
Um, yeah, I remember I'm like, yeah, no, this is, this is nice. This is nice.
00:47:14
Speaker
Yeah, I think whenever there's a vaccine and things do start to lift, there's gonna be a lot of babies born exactly nine months later. Oh yeah.
00:47:27
Speaker
Well, it was fantastic having you, Zach, and hopefully we'll be able to have you, like, a post-quarantine. Like, we'll talk about, you know, the boom that happens that way. Then we'll have an interesting talk about being like, and Zach has now had sex with everyone. It's been two weeks, and all of New York is pregnant. Yeah, keep track. We'll ask you about those 15 people on your list.
00:47:48
Speaker
yeah well yeah yeah well yeah thanks so much this was great yeah thank you for having me it was awesome yeah cool awesome and thanks y'all for listening to two bad guys we'll be back soon
00:48:03
Speaker
Two Bye Guys is created and hosted by Alex Boyan and me, Rob Cohen. Our logo art was designed by Caitlin Weinman, and our music was composed and created by Ross Mincer. Season 2 is executive produced and edited by me, Rob Cohen, and produced by Alex Boyan and Moxie Pung, with support from IFP. Thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys.