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The #1 Force Shaping Masculinity (It’s Not What You Think)
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In this episode of The Men’s Collective Podcast, Travis Goodman, LMFT, sits down with Dr. Brendan Hartman to explore the unspoken rules of masculinity that shape men’s lives—and how to finally break free.
From peer group pressure to self-policing behaviors, Brendan reveals how many men unknowingly stay trapped in invisible “cages” of outdated masculine norms, limiting emotional expression, vulnerability, and authentic confidence. Together, Travis and Brendan unpack:
- Why peer groups influence masculinity more than fathers or media
- How self-policing keeps men stuck in silence, shame, and isolation
- The contradictions men feel between their true self and the version society expects
- Why emotional vulnerability is actually a strength, not a weakness
- Practical steps to redefine masculinity, open the “cage door,” and live with more authenticity
This episode challenges outdated scripts of what it means to “be a man” and invites you to consider: Where in your life are you silently policing yourself? What would it look like to show up as your true self instead?
If you’ve ever felt stuck, disconnected, or trapped by expectations—you’re not alone. Join the conversation and take the first step toward authentic masculinity, purpose, and connection.
🎧 Listen now on Spotify, Apple, & YouTube or visit menscollective.co to go deeper.
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Transcript
Understanding Self-Policing and Power
00:00:00
Speaker
So we're all self-policing, staying in these cages, not realizing there's a door on the other side and some other guy is also in that same type of cage and wanting the other door. So that's like the self-policing, which research shows like that's actually ah then the strongest type of power is a power that doesn't need to influence directly. It's when you self-survey.
00:00:24
Speaker
what's going on and you self silence and you self limit.
Introduction to the Podcast and Brendan's Role
00:00:29
Speaker
Well, welcome everybody to this week's episode of the men's collective podcast. I'm super stoked this morning today to have our good friend, Brendan on PR and ice.
00:00:40
Speaker
A little bit about how I got to know Brendan is met him through, i believe Instagram is how we initially kind of sound, maybe saw, found each other. And then he joined an initiative that Pierre and I started about a year ago called the men's mindset initiative, which is really about bringing together like-minded individuals doing men's work and boys work around helping men and fathers around masculinity, around just showing up in mental wellness space, mental health.
00:01:10
Speaker
And Brendan has been part of that and has shared some of his, his research, his life experience, his, his perspective, his, his own journey.
Masculinity Influences and Peer Pressure
00:01:20
Speaker
And even more recently, we've been in a very small little, um,
00:01:23
Speaker
group together doing some training together. And so it's really, i think, for me, deepened my understanding and story of who Brendan is, and obviously Pierre, and then they got to see a bit about me. And so there's is's kind of like this bond happening. And so i was like, we got to have Brendan on just to have a conversation on the on the podcast, because i think it'd be such an easy conversation, I think, as far as us talking and and rich, because there's a lot that Brendan has to offer from not only his research, but his lived experience. And so i guess without further ado, Brendan, welcome.
00:01:53
Speaker
Thanks so much for having me. And I can just second that I felt there's like a deepening in the relationship having had the more intimate, smaller group setting that we've been doing in the past couple of months.
00:02:05
Speaker
I guess that my initial thought is, and I think this is going to kind of gear or drive, i think the topic of today, and this is around, you know, kind of a ah big umbrella around masculinity, the influences we have had growing up as men. And of course, uh, to my women listeners, the way in which masculine energy or men have influenced or impacted you growing up in homes, whether it's your dad or brothers, uncles, or just men in general, but specifically what have been some of those influences and already right now i'm thinking we were in a small, more intimate group of men doing some pretty deep work, quite vulnerable to use a word that I think sometimes could be,
00:02:49
Speaker
not word to use, I guess, or a taboo, I guess we don't to vulnerability, but very vulnerable and really intimate. Also, I think another word that might come up against some um more the rigid masculine um expectations and norms.
00:03:04
Speaker
And yet for me, I find it so life-giving and and bonding to say the least. And so it's kind of like this perspective of what are some of our
Impact of Masculinity on Daily Life
00:03:16
Speaker
influences? How have we been impacted?
00:03:18
Speaker
And yet we're doing things that I think would stand up against some of the, yeah, i again, these rigid ideas. But that's the very thing i think, this is my opinion, um that we need.
00:03:29
Speaker
um And of course, Pierre, Brendan could disagree. They could have different perspectives or you listeners could have different perspectives too. But I think that's the very thing that we're often looking for. And if I think of the men that I work with, that's the thing I think as well that they're looking for and needing in the end, even if they don't know it yet.
00:03:46
Speaker
because of why they come in, the reasons and what they're struggling with, what they're wrestling with in their life around how it impacts. And I think masculinity loosely impacts all that we do. I think there's small influences, big influences, depending on what space we're showing up in, whether it's our workspace, parenting space, relational space.
00:04:08
Speaker
It really kind of just is everywhere. So this is kind of me more am my thinking out loud of where I want to go, if I'm honest, of I guess as I talk about just hearing me talk, Brendan, in all the work that you've done, the research you've conducted, um the perspectives you've sat with, what do you think are some of the big influences kind of on boys and men around masculinity in general that you found?
00:04:35
Speaker
I think my personal experience reflects what I found in my PhD research of teenage boys. And even though the order of these influences might change, but it would be fathers, peer group, media,
00:04:52
Speaker
And for me specifically, i would also say the church had very strong messages around masculinity, around men, what they should and shouldn't be And the more I've delved into these topics individually or personally, the more I see the truth in that expression that almost anything can be a drug or a medicine depending on your intent And I feel like, oh, yeah, in some ways, there was a drug component of the church and there was a medicine component of the church.
00:05:27
Speaker
There was a drug component of my relationship with my father and a medicine component of it as well. And so teenage boys specifically, and they think their peer group or not, they think is that by interviewing them, it seemed like their peer group fathers, and I'll put like the role model, adult male role models in their lives and the media um definitely are some of the biggest impacts of their beliefs around masculinity and how they, their beliefs around emotionality a lot.
00:06:01
Speaker
I was surprised and by how many boys were just taking in so much information from their environment of like going to funerals and Being like, well, I learned men don't cry because I went to funeral. All the women were crying.
00:06:18
Speaker
None of the men were. And so, yeah, they pick up so much from so many different places.
Research on Masculinity Influences
00:06:23
Speaker
And I do think, though, that we underestimate the role of media of how like humans generally tend to underestimate um how easily influenced their beliefs are from all the messaging they receive.
00:06:38
Speaker
And I would say that I do think we underestimate what we get exposed to. And there's so many messages now, especially around masculinity, and that makes navigating masculinity an increasingly complex issue for boys and men that I work with.
00:06:54
Speaker
Where do you think you've found the boys and men with whom you've worked get their strongest messages? That is a great question. I think the strongest policing force around masculinity is their peer group.
00:07:13
Speaker
That if their peer group ah has it has a certain status quo of how you're going to show up emotionally wise or how you're going joke or how you're going to operate in the world, like that's probably the biggest, strongest factor.
00:07:29
Speaker
um So, but I would say like there's a huge contradiction or discrepancy that some, I think all humans have. Like I think one of the paths to healing is like being able to hold your complexity, including your contradictions and seeing them um kind of clearly rather than avoid believing that you don't have any contradictions. And so one of the contradictions though that I see all the time is this discrepancy between who boys and men feel like they are versus the one they feel like they project within their group or within their peer group or friend group or workforce of like, I got show up in this certain way.
00:08:09
Speaker
And in piggybacking off of that, i immediately went to, because um developmentally, obviously peer group makes sense. That's part of just the developmental stages, right? Of brain development, social development. um Obviously, it's a natural kind of separation from an individuation, right? From...
00:08:29
Speaker
family and and and like moms and dads and our family of origin. and And so if if peer, and honestly, I would agree even anecdotally from my own experience growing up, um I was more of a chameleon. i would i would be in different groups. I didn't really fit into any one group. So there was pros and cons of that if I remember honestly growing up as a teenage boy of relating to kind of all the different cliques, you know, the jocks, the band, the choir kids, the geeks, the skater kids. I kind of did it all, but I didn't really fit in either, like to any particular group.
00:09:07
Speaker
And so I think I found, i saw how all these groups, I guess, interacted and their, what was their kind of like DNA, um definitely some shared similarities growing up. but also some unique differences in how they have kind of treated or approached one another. Some definitely were more harsh and critical. And I'm not going to assign any particular group that I'm not going to say it right now. Like it's only these types of people that tend to be this way. Cause I don't know if that's actually genuinely true, but I definitely saw some groups that were harsher, more critical, more ah rigid, if you will.
00:09:39
Speaker
um Kind of more mean was the way of relating was through like prodding and pushing and And in other groups were more, and I guess, inviting and just having fun and and not really through harsh criticism of the other or like kind of beating each other down in a way as a way of connecting.
00:09:59
Speaker
And so I found that fascinating that I was able to have these experiences. And so I would agree the impact. um And I think I had an impact with all of them. So I didn't have just one. And I could see if you're just in one group.
00:10:11
Speaker
depending on that group, how powerful that could be. If like, this is your only group all the way through junior high, high school, starting college, like, man, that's your prime influence versus I was able to kind of bounce around. And I think the importance of that, of relating to others or differences, um and there's no question here, this is me just commenting, but the question that I'm thinking of is because you said peer group is so powerful, and again, I do agree, I go to, okay, well, what about the dads?
00:10:38
Speaker
Like how powerful are is the relationship to dad then in that moment of peer group so strong? And this is where I'm thinking, if you have a dad who, I'll give an example. Let's say you have really engaged dad who's really more integrated with a ah positive masculinity just to have a term right now kind of mature masculinity who's really engaged with his son who's showing up and then you got this strong peer influence versus maybe and again this is kind of a general we'll have to generalize here versus a child who may be either dad is quite rigid in his masculinity or not there all together or absent or something else and also the power of the peer group i guess doesn't really matter
00:11:17
Speaker
the impact of the father in this phase of life. And if it does matter, what have you seen? Like to how much and to what degree? Yeah, there's no question that fathers, parents matter. Absolutely. ah And I appreciate how you said, like, when we talk sociologically about general trends, there's always going to be exceptions.
00:11:38
Speaker
and This is why actually I hated sociology before I became a sociologist, because I was always like, oh, there's exceptions to all these answers. Sure. However, i guess using like the biopsychosocial model or brean Bren from Brenner's like different ideas,
00:11:54
Speaker
kind of concentric circles of different influences, like all of these things interplay with one another. And so like for my PhD research, i interviewed grade 12 boys who are the least and most emotionally expressive.
00:12:06
Speaker
So by grade 12, the most emotionally expressive grade 12 boys, they actually all said that during grade eight, grade nine, grade 10, they had to shut off their emotional selves at school.
00:12:17
Speaker
They to hide it from almost all of their peer friends, if not all of their peer friends. But those that did so and were emotionally expressive, most of them had what I call emotional safe havens at home.
00:12:32
Speaker
and And so that was like 60 percent of the time it was mothers over fathers. But fathers were a huge part of that as well. And. um One way that our society treats teenage boys on average is that we kind of view, okay, teenage boys, they're going to go through a couple of years where you're going to like, kind of, they're going to go grow distant from you, but like, don't worry, they'll come back to you eventually.
00:12:57
Speaker
So there's kind of like a collective, like hands off, like, okay, I just will leave them alone. ah when most research shows that anything, teenage boys actually need more emotional support and guidance during the teenage years than girls and actually receive less.
00:13:12
Speaker
And when I asked these grade 12 boys, all of them in my interviews, if you had to change one thing about school, what would it be? And there was no priming towards anything there, but 80% of them said they wanted more or better emotional education.
00:13:27
Speaker
So there's an awareness of wanting guidance. Like one kid said, Yeah, emotions confuse me even more than girls confuse me. And something else that you said, Travis, was in talking about like the the fitting in.
00:13:42
Speaker
um i think this there's one one of the existential fears that humans have is being alone. And I think the teenage years specifically, because there's so much peer orientation, there's so much posturing trying to fit in.
00:13:56
Speaker
One of the biggest fears that prevents people boys from like breaking up with more rigid masculinity is the fear that if they do so they're going to be socially ah ostracized and they're going to be alone ultimately and my research really aligns with dr bernie brown's research that found the opposite of belonging is fitting in and wow and these teenage boys that were highly emotionally rigid but adhered to more rigid norms of masculinity
00:14:28
Speaker
The only significant difference in my research that I found between the two groups of boys was that they experienced much greater levels of loneliness. But I don't want you to think that they didn't have any friends. In fact, you could make a good argument that it seemed like they actually had more friends.
00:14:41
Speaker
They didn't feel like they could be fully themselves in it. They were worried that if I was fully myself in this, I would lose my friendships. And this was the same of the highly emotional expressive grade 12 boys is that during grade eight, nine, 10, they all thought the same thing, but they just felt this internal conflict of I hate this war.
00:15:01
Speaker
and they like had enough confidence to test it out. And all of them said that there was less consequences than they thought there would be by kind of breaking out of the rigid man box.
00:15:12
Speaker
However, I will also caution that by saying if they had broken out of that man box in grade eight or nine, the consequences might've been higher. But by grade 11, 12, there kind of seems to be like at a lot of high schools that I've worked at and worked with, there's a bit risk.
00:15:30
Speaker
It's not like there's less cliques, but there's a bit more acceptance of people having like, I don't know, in your high schools, but like by grade 12, it's like, oh, everyone's kind of friends with each other for the most part.
00:15:41
Speaker
Like contextualized as well. But there's a bit of there's a bit more maturing that goes on of realizing people have different ways of being. A couple of things i want to respond to that I want to hear Pierre's thoughts. But first, that that quote, the opposite of belonging is fitting in.
00:15:59
Speaker
That just like blew my mind. um And I remember that quote actually from Brene Brown's work. And i was like, oh, yeah, that's such a God, like it's hard because I think of so many clients I've worked with that that's kind of what they're looking for because they're trying to fight the loneliness piece. So i just want to just like reiterate that. Like, I think that's so...
00:16:19
Speaker
true in the sense that I hear that time and time again from not just boys, but women that I work with too. I mean, on so many different levels, that's just, I think more of like a human conditioned thing than anything else.
00:16:31
Speaker
And the other thing that I wanted to that was standing out as you were talking was this while to these boys who were more emotionally expressive while they went through similar thought struggles or questions or maybe even some emotional masking or numbing or or pulling away or some type of disconnection or growth space however want to call it they had this emotional safe haven um where at home they knew that they could show up, it sounds like, in and just kind of be themselves and they didn't have to mask as much.
00:17:05
Speaker
Is that a good way to put it, if you were to kind of put it? Yeah, it wasn't always at home. ah Like I'd say, and this ties back into the father thing, is that so many of the teenage boys loved their fathers in so many ways, but there was...
00:17:20
Speaker
A sub theme that came up is that there was one area of longing that frequently came up. I was like, I want a bit more emotional connection with my dad. Or like do we can connect around all these other things except emotions.
00:17:34
Speaker
There was, of course, lots of exceptions to that. Sure, sure. However, that came up. And there was one other thing i was going to add into there. But I lost my shift train thought. I'm sorry.
00:17:47
Speaker
No, that's good. Pierre.
Policing Masculinity and Emotional Expression
00:17:50
Speaker
Your thoughts? You know, a few things came up. I want to name one thing and then follow up on just what you said. I'm not sure how many listeners or people generally might have used or heard used the idea of policing masculinity.
00:18:11
Speaker
It comes up a fair bit in research around traditional masculine norms and how they show up in interaction between men. And I'd imagine are the growing research around boys and teenage boys, adolescents, young men.
00:18:31
Speaker
So i I want to name that because I think that many of us may not have heard that specific term, but know just as you said it, what that means. That is,
00:18:42
Speaker
not that is fitting in it's not it's not being called a pussy or whatever you want to like name some weak non-masculine term Yeah. Can I actually unpack it a bit more?
00:18:58
Speaker
Yeah. um The way I often in my workshops talk about this, and this came up in my research, is that there's basically three types of ways that boys and men get policed. Excellent.
00:19:09
Speaker
plant And so i now use like cages as analogies, three different types of cages. So like the first cage is the cage that other people put us in. So that's like...
00:19:19
Speaker
um Yeah, if you don't like your pussy or I've heard like horrendous stories of men who have been told like essentially that their life is threatened so by their parents if they were to cry, they were to exhibit distress in certain ways. So that's a cage other people put around us.
00:19:38
Speaker
The second type of cage is the I think is the most powerful cage. It's the one that actually is the self policing. So maybe you got put into a cage initially.
00:19:50
Speaker
And that was very survival and adaptive based, but you haven't reassessed of like, oh, am I still in survival mode or has that danger passed? And so the example that i use that I think is one of the most saddest things to come out of my research is that every teenage boy that was highly emotionally restricted wanted a little bit more emotional expression with some of the other behaviors.
00:20:12
Speaker
males in their lives, but they almost all thought that none of the other males in their lives wanted the same thing. So we're all self-policing, staying in these cages, not realizing there's a door on the other side and some other guy is also in that same type of cage and wanting the other door.
00:20:28
Speaker
So that's like the self-policing, which research shows like that's actually ah the the strongest type of power is a power that doesn't need to influence directly. It's when you self-survey what's going on and you self silence and you self limit.
00:20:46
Speaker
And then the third type of cage is the cage that we keep others in. And i i use this metaphor, of, have you heard of the crab mentality? So the crab mentality is apparently comes from like, if you,
00:21:02
Speaker
put a bunch of crabs in a bucket, you don't need to put a lid on that bucket because if one tries to escape, the other one's they' just gonna pull it back in. And so this happens a lot in like peer groups, especially when it's boys and men where like someone tries or someone kind of gets out of a norm.
00:21:16
Speaker
And then within the group, it's like making fun or ridiculing, which is a super huge part of guy culture. And it's complicated because part of it is how guys bond.
00:21:27
Speaker
And so they feel kind of closer in the making fun of, but that excuses a ton of actual abuse and we ignore really harmful abuse in those settings. And so we keep other people in cages because them leaving their cage almost like is a threat to us.
00:21:44
Speaker
And so in a sense, then it kind of goes back to that first circle and we become the cage that's putting someone else back in the cage. So that's the type of policing. Thank you for that. Yeah, not that else. That's powerful.
00:21:55
Speaker
I think that men can look back to how are you now largely police ourselves. And again, not sure that most of us might use that terminology, but it is powerful terminology that very much fits.
00:22:11
Speaker
We may censor things like um preferences, what we might consume, the shows, TV, media we watch, or at least the ones that we we share with others.
00:22:29
Speaker
how we express to one another. And, you know, one thing that we've very frequently found is, and it's such a big part of the idea of loneliness and connectedness, that so often there's a sense that somewhere out there men are connecting in some meaningful way, but I'm not there.
00:22:52
Speaker
Like I'm excluded in some in some way. In many cases, I think guys can, many men recognize most of us unfortunately are not connecting nearly as strongly as we need in life or as we want in life. But there is also this sense of this we've seen hesitation to be in group together because there is a sense that maybe the interaction is going to be somehow very competitive.
00:23:23
Speaker
It's not actually going to be very connective. And You know, it's very interesting because we because we work with men in group together and I like to think that we're able to facilitate a connect ah ah connectedness that feels more authentic.
00:23:39
Speaker
But very frequently, um there is self-censuring, or self-censoring rather, maybe self-censuring as well, that we witness in spite of it being generally an open space. And I think that probably speaks to much of what your research has shown here, which is that increasingly boys and young men may find themselves in these sort of self-made cages.
00:24:09
Speaker
Not entirely by choice, certainly, but through societal interactions and friend group interactions. Yeah. Thank
Emotional Intelligence and Safe Environments
00:24:18
Speaker
you. Most research shows that for boys, it happens earlier than for other genders in the sense that like starting around age three, but really around age five is when there's strong messages already given to boys about how they can be, especially around their emotions, that two emotions in particular are less acceptable for them to express because they're boys, fear and sadness being the two main ones.
00:24:42
Speaker
And so you have this cage from the outside and often like research shows like, So much of this is hidden bias too, is that parents of any gender are more likely to use emotional language when talking to their daughters than talking to their sons, especially about sad events. And so there's less language associated with some of our emotional experience.
00:25:04
Speaker
And we know that one of the key aspects of healthy emotional intelligence is being able to accurately label and name an emotion. And it's really hard to regulate an emotion if we don't have a name for it, if we don't understand it. And so,
00:25:16
Speaker
that can distort at a very young age um boys and men's relationships with emotions. And we also know that emotional connection is one way to feel closer and more connected to the people in your life.
00:25:30
Speaker
And so this impacts relationally as well. And it's not like we're all... just want to mention, like, we're not trying, like, not everyone has to be the same level of emotional expression. Like, there's differences of personality here. Like, I think I'm just going to, on average, be probably more emotionally expressive than some men.
00:25:49
Speaker
And that's, like, the point isn't to get everyone to the exact same level of emotional expression. My goal or my hope would be that we recognize where we are emotionally suppressing or disconnecting and we are being honest and in relationship with, if we can become emotional safe havens for ourselves would be such a good place to start where we can accept what is coming up for us um and not avoid those feelings or be confused about those feelings.
00:26:18
Speaker
Or it's okay to be confused about the feelings. and it is Even acknowledging them feels difficult. i mean, there is a strong, it's not really strong because I think that it's not been fully studied and a very difficult thing to study, I suppose, is this sort of sense of men being less connected to our own sense of emotion.
00:26:43
Speaker
and perhaps even having this sort of idea of normative male alexithymia, sort of not being able to identify, name, recognize even the state of our emotions in ourselves, perhaps in others, but really strongly in ourselves, that is perhaps so societally reinforced that it becomes more typical than atypical.
00:27:12
Speaker
So it's something alexithymia is sort of seen in many ways as part of psychological or mental ah pathology. But for many of us, there is a sense of not feeling connected to or not being able to name or express our emotions.
00:27:30
Speaker
And, you know, it's interesting because i think we could go down this sort of academic road, but also... We have been in a group together where our emotions have flowed very strongly.
00:27:45
Speaker
yeah Sometimes, um i think I can say for me, entirely unexpectedly. Yeah, me too. for yeah For myself. yeah yeah Same here. I was in a coffee shop and I was trying to hold back emotion because i was aware that there's coffee shop people around me and I'm doing this deep work and I'm like, I'm feeling all this feeling. So I was trying to be expressive, but also not freak people out around me.
00:28:10
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, for me, there was like, no, uh, I can sort of cognitively logically tell you the backstory behind it, but that's less important. Yeah.
00:28:21
Speaker
Um, for sure. The experience of it and the ability to name it was, sort of like a punch in the gut. we I think we all probably have seen this for many other men with whom we work, but I want just name here, doesn't immunize us from the experience of it ourselves and in our own, perhaps in our own unique ways, but also in ways that very much connect us to the men we're trying to help, the men we're trying to support and encourage and facilitate.
00:28:57
Speaker
Yeah, there's a couple of things that come up for me there. Is that one of my patterns of healing is feeling like, oh, I'm good at feeling things one time, but I feel like, okay, once I feel it once, I should be done with it.
00:29:12
Speaker
Like, I should. yeah Like, okay, I've been there before. What's the point of feeling it again? and it's like, even though I know the research about how important it to feel things, even when they come up cyclically,
00:29:25
Speaker
I feel like I should be done by now. i should figure it out healing. And then the other thing, i want to just give a personal example of what could be considered ah male normative alexithymia, finding the difficulty in actually naming or having words to express emotions. yeah The third-ish date I think I ever went on with my now wife, she asked me what my relationship was like with shame.
00:29:52
Speaker
And it's a deep third date question. yes yeah That's wild. And amazing. It is wild. and I remember saying, which I shudder at with a level of shame right now, is i don't think I've ever experienced shame before. And was confused.
00:30:15
Speaker
was I've been embarrassed. And so I didn't know the difference even between embarrassment and shame. And the the joke is that, oh,
00:30:28
Speaker
I think most of my life, if I've had to pick one emotion of what has impacted my life the most, it would be my relationship with shame. And that is so true of so many men. So for instance, one of the best ways to prevent feelings of shame of like, I am not enough. I am worthless.
00:30:46
Speaker
ah Something that's inherently wrong with me. is to go into anger. And especially how boys and men are socialized is to have external expressions of anger. And because anger is something that like you can point outward and it's less focused on you.
00:31:02
Speaker
And so many times we can kind of lose sight of the cause and consequence of different emotions and be like, oh, I'm just angry. Well, it's like, okay, were you angry because a boundary was crossed and that's primary anger or was it a secondary emotion where you might've felt shame or betrayal or hurt another way first?
00:31:20
Speaker
And I think, and this also goes back to the research on childhood, is that adults, if they think they're interacting with a boy and who's emotionally upset, And they do these studies where they swap boys and girls and other gendered clothing. So they, so that if they just think they're interacting with a boy and it's actually not a boy, they tend to assume that that boy's fussiness is a sign of them being angry.
00:31:45
Speaker
And so it almost conflates the whole spectrum of emotional experience more with anger. And I see that with adult men of like, oh, i'm just angry or frustrated.
00:31:55
Speaker
It's more in that valence of emotions without understanding all of the different emotional experiences that led up to the anger. And maybe you're actually, maybe the thing you should be angry about is how we have all been so disconnected from our emotional experience that that is the one that is easiest to draw upon, but it obscures what actually needs to be uncovered.
00:32:18
Speaker
Hmm. couple things came up for me with all that is that so many things, but one, that means i'm I feel like I'm doing the right thing with my boys and my kids because I'm doing that now. From all my research and all my work, I'm very proactive about trying to fight, and not fight against, but really create that safe haven with my kids of like, okay, let's talk about emotions. I talked, have boys and girls, girls, singular, two boys.
00:32:41
Speaker
So I'm very, really trying to use the same language or around emotional expression, even showing them as a dad my emotions obviously to a degree that I'm not a burden. They're not, they're not responsible for my emotions, but to show that I too am impacted.
00:32:55
Speaker
So that's good. So thank you for the research confidence there, Brendan, that I'm on the right track, that I'm going to help the peer group when they're in teenage years. Um, But the other thing that came to mind is that when I think about the work we've done together recently and seeing each other's emotions and experiencing and sitting with one and witnessing each other outside of my experience in the coffee shop only because I was not in my own space. So it was a I didn't expect to go somewhere. And so I think I was more surprised.
00:33:25
Speaker
um But to your point about feeling a feeling again, or maybe something you've done work around and having to readdress it at another level something that I find in my own life. I mean, the thing that we dealt with in in our group was I was dealing with some sadness around my relationship with a particular family member.
00:33:48
Speaker
and knowing i've done a lot of work around that already but i was dealing with another layer of grief and loss around it just another deepening of like and it's i think it's because of being a dad now having my kids it like gave me another perspective that umm and I was never able to fully see or experience previously, but because I now saw it like almost like I was watching it happen as if when I was a kid, i saw it happening.
00:34:19
Speaker
That's what it was like. I had, a i never had that perspective before because I saw it happening with one of my sons with his family member. And I was like, oh, so it just took another layer and I had to kind of go through it again.
00:34:31
Speaker
And thankfully I had you guys to as witness and peer to kind of guide me through it. i could not have, I, could have done it alone? Sure. And I was doing my own stuff, but there's something powerful in this, you know, co-regulation to you know, to quote polyvagal theory, cause I'm a polyvagal nerd. And and so it'll make Stephen poor, just proud that I'm using that language, but um that there's a sense that I've had with Pierre and you guys that it was, there's the safety here that I could just allow myself to go there knowing that there's no shame, no judgment. I'm not going to get rat, you know,
00:35:04
Speaker
ja You know, razzed, is that the right word? Razzed? That's right. Yeah. Like kids are saying these days, but is that what it is? Like when they, is that the word I'm thinking of razz or is that, or something like that where, you know, someone's poking because, Oh, look, it's like, or the crab thing. Well, you're being too, you know, showing too much.
00:35:22
Speaker
Like I knew that and I knew in a conference that would never happen in the group that we have because we're not like that. And so I immediately could just be, be that, be in that space. And the power for me personally, just this, this deepening of like,
00:35:37
Speaker
Okay, like I'm going through this wave of grief again. Did not anticipate this. i was not planning for this today. And yet here I am. And kind of because of the group and what we were doing with men, all of us, like I can show up here and allow to be, I was allowing myself to be seen knowing because I had a confidence in the group already that there's going to be protection here. There's going to be a confidence. There's a, a support, there's a, a camaraderie, right? There's not a, I don't have to be afraid of because then it always makes me think of these cages again, that
00:36:10
Speaker
You're right, that self-cage I think is the most powerful, but also it makes sense why we also have these self-cages because of if we've never had experiences or very little experiences with other not being caged in, then it makes sense why so many of us, even us at times, um might have this kind of self-prescriptive protective cage that we sometimes we want to put on because there's this, can I really trust
Work Environment and Masculine Identity
00:36:33
Speaker
this?
00:36:33
Speaker
Again, going back to the beginning conversation, all these influences of what it means to be a man and our peer influences that are repeated time and time again. And I think of men today, what are the work environments that they come in with?
00:36:45
Speaker
What is the environment they, in what's their business environment? That's a huge influence now. Now I know you're focused on teens, but man, if we studied adult men, probably the biggest influences, yeah, they're around work more than anything else, probably more than their kids, more than their spouses, right?
00:37:00
Speaker
That, so what, what is the nature of masculinity and how does it show up in those environments? Yeah. And that I would say for work is like that's one of the rigid aspects of rigid, restricted masculinity is that men's purpose is tied directly into the productive work capabilities, which is also why we see one of the highest rates of suicide is actually in men after retirement.
00:37:25
Speaker
Right. And because, and like there's so many complicated factors of that, but research has shown that one of it is the changing role of a breadwinner that like, okay, if I'm not the breadwinner, what value do I have? And we also see this huge in the red pill movement of like the society has gone too far one way. And like, because men can't,
00:37:46
Speaker
ah economically provide as much or women don't need men as much economically. And so that's changing gender relationships is changing, impacting the dating scene, the marriage scene.
00:37:59
Speaker
And that is one very limiting aspect of how masculinity shows up in the workforce. If, if our, and I had a ah keynote talk at university one time where I just mentioned offhand that like, it's problematic if,
00:38:16
Speaker
any of us like has our identity so tied into one single thing. And ah mentioned just in passing, like work, if your only value is from what you produce, that's problematic. And then this like maybe 23 year old man the end, the student, he's like questioned about that. He's like, you said that, like, do you actually believe that? Because I've never viewed that I have,
00:38:39
Speaker
I'm paraphrasing slightly, but i'm oh i don't think i have an hair I don't think I have value outside of the work that I do. And he just named what so many men feel.
Men's Existential Crisis
00:38:51
Speaker
sure Yeah, but this is my purpose. And that is hard. like I want to acknowledge how existentially difficult it is.
00:39:01
Speaker
yeah If you have been primed your whole life, at like this is your purpose, this is your meaning, this is your sure This is where you hang your hat on. And now you're saying, oh this needs to change. That is very difficult.
00:39:15
Speaker
Oh, sure. Well, why i why would I trust that if I'm a guy? Like, um wait, wait, my whole life, you said, like, my whole life, now you're saying it's different. I'm not going to trust that. That's not trustworthy. Even if it's true. all the All the things that kept them to survive is going to say, F that. 100%. No, you're some crazy or you're some weird guru person. I don't care about research because my lived experience has said something totally different.
00:39:40
Speaker
I was heart heart harmed, rejected, abandoned. I'm never doing that again. so yeah Talk about an existential, complete crisis. yeah No wonder why it's so hard it change.
00:39:54
Speaker
yeah you know i think one thing you said, having kids, you see how malleable they are. they How much, and and I've always, not joked, but I said to my wife, i'm like you know how easy it is if we really wanted to, to like wreck a human being.
00:40:12
Speaker
It's actually not that hard. Like, I mean, it's hard and like, I would never do it. Like I would, I would feel awful, but I mean, but if you think about it, the messages that I've heard of clients that their parents or society told them, I'm like, no wonder why that sticks in with you. It doesn't take much to like, it just, it's like a spear in the soul that will live with you the rest of your life. Even like a one-time thing, it doesn't take much.
00:40:40
Speaker
Like Travis, I think i'm like there's a part of me that wants to go even a step further and say, it's actually hard to not mess them up. right That's at least how I feel some of the time. Sure.
00:40:51
Speaker
But like I went into having kids thinking, you know what? having realized prior to having kids how much shame did control my life. I was like, Oh, I'm not, I'm going to raise my child without them feeling shame at all.
00:41:06
Speaker
And i would argue that my, one of my children experiences shame a higher level of sensitivity that I could ever imagine. And I think I experienced shame at a higher level than I could imagine. And it would be so easy to continue the pattern that like was better than my own pattern, but still,
00:41:26
Speaker
the end result would be the same if not worse. So, so here's a question. And I, and I, I really, one of my kids has that as well. Um, and I've never said anything like that to him ever, nor has my wife, nor has I think anybody ah except for somebody, but they haven't said it. It was more of how they were with his emotion. But, um,
00:41:47
Speaker
That's the person I was doing family work on. um But that's like a couple experiences. And so I'm curious then, with that said, because I have a belief around that, and I you know i think it does come in line with a lot of things I've read, Brene Brown's work, too, to name some about you know it's in relationship and community and creating safety to combat shame.
00:42:07
Speaker
That i think we all have to I think we all have to deal with it to some degree. It's not about avoidance, but about how do we navigate this and find the truth of who we are beyond it and knowing that shame is often protective. um And so how do we facilitate the conversation as men, as fathers, as whether we have kids or not, whether it's with ourselves or friends around us.
00:42:27
Speaker
But what I think is, what do you think then? from your opinion, and I love Pierre's thought too, like if this is something we all have to deal with, that we all have to face shame to some degree.
00:42:39
Speaker
And if we're specifically focusing on boys, they have to face it too. I don't think there's any really any way around it in the world we live in. at least currently. So what do you think if you could pick one thing? And I know that this is the one thing.
00:42:52
Speaker
I'm not asking for a magic pill or anything because I know there's no one thing. It's more than one thing. I get that. But just to say for you right now in your life, what do you think is one of the most important things that you want to be mindful of and intentional about with how you engage young boys, teenage boys, um or other men, or even yourself with with essentially combating and helping navigate those shame messages around what it means to be have like a healthy, positive masculinity.
00:43:23
Speaker
like What do you think is that one, or on your list, a priority? Yeah, I think, and there's so many different ways to approach this, but just I'll just speak what comes up.
00:43:35
Speaker
And hopefully I like the answer by the end of me talking about my answer. But I would say that helping, honoring why the shame is there, like, and not even even really harshly judging the shame of just recognizing how protective it was, how much that helped them Because so many boys said like when they started suppressing their emotions, they got bullied less at school.
00:44:03
Speaker
So let's honor that. And let's not shame them for not being emotionally expressive now as men. But I think like the transition um often happens when people feel seen in their experience. And so I want i want boys and men to feel seen in their experience of what they've needed to do.
00:44:21
Speaker
And then to also like showcase and help them feel like what's a different way of being and be like a bit curiosity. like i My magic wand around people's relationships with emotions if I could waive one, it would be to increase our capacity to handle our own emotional distress.
00:44:41
Speaker
And maybe I could actually just end it there because I think that will actually help us be able to handle other people's emotional distress. yeah And so many boys and men, like they actually, research shows this too, is that they tend to feel a higher level of emotional dysregulation witnessing other people's emotional dysregulation.
00:45:00
Speaker
And so I think this also feeds into that that stereotype of men wanting to fix it all of the time. It's like, oh, because I don't want to sit with these uncomfortable feelings because because they probably weren't sat with their uncomfortable feelings and co-regulated as much as children either.
00:45:17
Speaker
and so it like it all ties in. And so it's more of like... there's different messaging that like some boys and men like really like the challenge aspect of it of like, oh, this is like an emotional intelligence skill that i can train in.
00:45:30
Speaker
And i also know emotional intelligence correlates to higher life satisfaction, better pay, better career paths. Like if that's the buy-in that you need, start there. Like I don't care about what your buy-in is.
00:45:42
Speaker
Yeah. Now thanks for sharing that, Brendan. And Pierre, what what's your thoughts on that? Like what's one way that you're being intentional now the way how you show up with you know, boys and men in your life, yeah you find is important.
00:45:57
Speaker
Brendan, what you said really resonated. I think much of the challenge, and we found this in working with men around support, much of the challenge is even just being able to be in a place where I can name my own experience and perhaps what I might need without being having have everything figured out in advance or fixed in advance.
00:46:22
Speaker
And so I'm very much a man who walls off very challenging emotions that I think might be too much for another person.
00:46:34
Speaker
And that goes back to to childhood. There's a long story there, but I think even that probably wouldn't explain it all. Like I think even as you describe, you know, what um Travis, what one of your son's experiences, and in spite of there not necessarily being a story of someone shaming or someone trying to impose judgment in that way.
00:47:03
Speaker
then entirely explicitly named, but I felt very strongly that I had to make sure everything was fine and fine. i mean, them sort of, there's all sorts of chaos behind fine for men.
00:47:20
Speaker
And for me, particularly that, ah what feels like chaos just a lot of emotion and you know because for me my experience of it often will feel very chaotic and swirly and difficult to even wrap my brain around inside i will often hide it all together in the hopes that maybe the swirl will slow down on its own before i even even named anything and so i think one of the ways that I've appreciated here is I don't have to have the words for all of my emotions, nor do I have to have the story. In fact, the story is very much less important than the actual experience in the moment.
00:48:04
Speaker
I think what has changed for me is I'm much quicker, not much, it's a and slow. i still very much wall off. But there are times when I might find myself feeling grounded, connected, and brave enough to say, I'm going through a lot, or I'm feeling some type of way. Even if I don't know what type of way that is, even though I'm not asking for a solution or a fix.
00:48:36
Speaker
But A, there's something really important to naming it for the the relationship that I have with that other person, assuming this is a trustworthy individual and a trusting, loving, safe relationship.
00:48:49
Speaker
There's something really powerful to it, something not very burdensome, something very antithetical, I suppose, to what I assumed or feared or anticipated.
00:49:02
Speaker
happening before i opened up. In fact, my assumption was that closing off would connect me more strongly because I'd be less burdensome. But the reality is that my closing off disconnected me and made me, maybe not and not not enough, but made me not honest.
00:49:24
Speaker
And so I think part of being heard, as you've said super important. But I think there's something to being maybe having modeled or being invited to allow yourself to be heard or facilitate your own sense of being seen and heard by another individual.
Communicating for Connection
00:49:47
Speaker
Because without it, you could i find myself very frequently feeling almost two-dimensional. I'm just kind of a flat cardboard cutout. I'm here, and I'm here to do work, or I'm here to produce, or I'm here to do something.
00:50:02
Speaker
But I'm not all that connected. And i don't I think I can't count the number of times that I've heard that from men, especially in those very vulnerable moments that you both have mentioned.
00:50:16
Speaker
particularly with age and reaching a point of retirement because so much of our sense of identity and connectedness and impact and purpose is drawn into this one two-dimensional place, which is work.
00:50:34
Speaker
And a couple of thoughts and we'll wrap up here for today. But first is this notion of it's it's in relationship and period. You mentioned that obviously, Brendan, you did. and I know I have. um Even though i've I've personally done a lot of work around emotional expression in my life and shame, I still get pulled in to protective parts or parts that like buy into that old messaging. now It's not as strong ah for me anymore. It still shows up, but I'm able to recognize and say, okay, you're here. Okay. But I know the truth because I've done this enough rept in in repetition to know that me shutting down is going to, is not an isolating and pulling away emotionally is just going to make it worse.
00:51:16
Speaker
Um, cause know even early beginning of this year in January period, and as we had, there was something I was kind of holding together with myself that I wasn't talking about. And I had this logical part of me that knew it,
00:51:28
Speaker
ah But my, of course, my emotional fear completely override any logic. And this kept me kind of in my own little bubble. And as as soon as I like told a few people and Pierre was one of them and just had just talked about it, man, that ah that like relief was in almost instant of like,
00:51:46
Speaker
Cause it's like, I allowed that integration between like my heart and soul and but mind to like bridge the gap. But I had that part saying, no, don't do it. Don't do it. And a total shame of like failing as a dad. And I was like, and, and even though I knew it, I knew it.
00:52:01
Speaker
I still found myself stuck for about a week and didn't sleep. And I was like, what am I doing? I hadn't, then I had this epiphany. i'm like, I just got, I know I need to do, I see you tell someone. And then I did. And, Thankfully, just so much better. um So i want to share that that I think that is – that i'm always I'm also still working through this even though I logically know at times. And it's not a bad – I think I want to say it's not a bad thing or a wrong thing that we might still have these moments of like walling off or holding things in or trying to figure it out on our own.
00:52:33
Speaker
I think it's just a natural human – tendency to to, you know I mean? It's like a natural, I think initial response sometimes, right? it's protective. And I think even when I think of my oldest son, like I think it's his own, his, how his, how his brain's wired, how he's wired that he's got a little more of that kind of nature wiring of like protectiveness.
00:52:52
Speaker
Hmm. um That's that nature and nurture argument. I think it's both for sure. Having three kids, I could definitely see nature and I could see nurture. Like I see the they're both there. I actually think that I have seen more nature than I thought prior to having kids, especially having twins. It's like one of them, like this is a surface level thing, but like one of them loves like the Balrog from Lord of the Rings and Black and the other one loves rainbows and unicorns.
00:53:20
Speaker
And it's just like, oh yeah, there was no coaching the either way. is just like, oh, they have their own personalities in such powerful ways. And I kind of thought, oh, I have more control over who they are.
Parenting and Emotional Safety
00:53:32
Speaker
ah yeah but what I can say is if though, if, um, to that point, and I agree with you on the, on the, on the, on the preferences, but I think of like, I always go to my oldest son who is neurodivergent and I'm, um,
00:53:46
Speaker
and and has more that kind of shame piece more. But I think of while nature is strong, I also know that nurture plays such a huge role because if my, if there was a lack of nurture or i was very cold or, you know,
00:54:03
Speaker
The worst of the worst that you that we have all heard to some degree of what parents or people have said or what men have said. That would take whatever nature is going on and I guarantee you just yes run with it.
00:54:15
Speaker
100%. And so I know that I can't – and my job is not necessarily fix those parts of him that he's going to have to navigate. He's going to be eight. But I know it's my job to be with.
00:54:27
Speaker
yeah And that is the one that coming back to what I think is most important for me that I'm trying to be intentional about with all of my kids and my wife and my friend is I want to be with. And I think if i did if I do that, and I'm thinking, I'm sorry, I'm getting tearful here, um that I know that my son's and my daughter and my wife and my friends ah won't feel alone.
00:54:53
Speaker
um Cause I think that's the thing that, and I'm having all these emotions cause it's my own stuff, but also I think all of that same feeling I've worked with thousands of clients that that's that thing that I think is this aloneness. um And I think everyone wants to just not be alone.
00:55:10
Speaker
And so my mission in life is to be with, Yeah, that's beautiful and powerful and resonant with my experience with the research. I think of the paradox of healing i often come across is that the more we have an agenda for our change or our healing or other people's healing, the less...
00:55:33
Speaker
it's almost like the more we're able to let go of the outcome, the closer we actually get to that outcome. it's like, Oh yeah, I so want to be with. And it's like, I, I just need to be with it all. Sometimes I need to be with the stuckness ye of not being with it to the extent that I wish I was with myself and my kids and my family, but that's super powerful.
00:55:54
Speaker
yeah And that's what I mean by being with is not the, This is being present with, it's not trying to fix it with the width, you know, um, just trying to show up and just, I think of it like, like bird watching.
00:56:06
Speaker
This is like, this, this is my now, my new kick on analogy is I just want to sit and witness the birds and what birds show up and not trying to fix or trap or do anything different, but just, And I literally do this in my backyard at times, just sit and watch for 20 minutes in the morning, just kind of just who's here. And I think that even my own life and my emotions or my kids, like i just want to just witness and be in this presence and just kind of not trying to change or fix or resolve, but just know, and the birds know, I'm assuming that I'm there too. There's a presence here with them, whether they choose to engage, engage or not with me, but I'm here.
00:56:39
Speaker
Um, and they, and they know it. So we have some crow friends, by the way, we we give them walnuts. And so they, uh, they hang out more and they get closer and closer. Cause if we don't give them walnuts early enough, they start cawing at us. And so we, we've nurtured some crow, crow friends. Um, and so that's a beautiful analogy. I think too, as we close out thinking about how we even,
00:57:07
Speaker
connect to ourselves and our emotions. Because it is such a barrier often that so many of us, myself included, I'm on top of that list sometimes. I think less so with time, but I don't think that wall will ever really go away and I find myself less inclined to force it away and more inclined to maybe experiment with dropping a brick or two now and then.
00:57:37
Speaker
um The metaphor of bird watching feels really important because I think it's too frequent that I'll speak for myself, maybe also other men within my work certainly, but it's too frequent perhaps us that I find myself thinking I'm going to share or witness or be with this emotion if I think it's a productive one.
00:58:04
Speaker
If I think there's a reason for it that makes sense or something good will come of sharing it with someone else. And increasingly, I appreciated the power of being with and communicating for connection as opposed to communicating for information or communicating to inform.
00:58:28
Speaker
And i think it's described beautifully in the idea of watching birds. I'm actually in Pittsburgh staying with a friend who is quite a big gardener and feeds lot of those the um squirrels and bunnies and chipmunks and has like five or six bird feeders.
00:58:51
Speaker
And, you know, it's not... catching naming describing the birds it's just witnessing there's something beautiful to it and i think it happens really beautifully between us especially between men in part because very often when it does happen we're moved to some emotion it's a rarity yeah so thank you both thank you travis for sharing the experience and um emotion yeah brendan as well you're starting to say brendan
00:59:24
Speaker
oh, i can resonant I love the analogy and I also can resonate and I think so many men can resonate with why feel feelings if they're not productive. yeah And that's one of the other things is that, man, like the best way that I found to fix things is actually to feel things and still have to relearn that far too often.
00:59:46
Speaker
and And I think we need a different word to, and then we'll close because we could we could just keep talking. but and and And this is me with my own word, not not a knock on what you said, Brandon, but like to finish you know to fix things, to feel things. Like, what if it's not about just get rid of fixing? Like, what's another? I think we need a more, i don't know.
01:00:03
Speaker
because its Yeah, it's actually fixing it. It's just, it's like. It's like facing. Yeah, it's like, yeah. I think of like waves in the ocean. it's like I can't fix the ocean. It's just like.
01:00:16
Speaker
it's allowing to move with the energy of the ocean say, what's it trying to say to me? That's always go to. That's a great analogy because one of my friends is like a hydro engineer in Germany and he came to Canada to like, cause we have lots of hydro and he's like, the thing you have to realize is like, you can't fight the river. Like you can build something around the river, but that's going to destroy much more quickly. You have to work with the river and like, you can kind of encourage it.
01:00:44
Speaker
the Yeah. Yeah, that's always the thing is like, we got to if we try and fight or fix it it's like I want to get pummeled by the ocean, man, it's going to just destroy
Podcast Conclusion and Resources
01:00:51
Speaker
me. But um hey, if people want to know more about you, Brennan, and find you and work with you and say, hey, we'd like to say, where can we find you? Where where can we point them?
01:01:00
Speaker
Yeah, remasculine.com. I'm most active on Instagram, but remasculine.com. You can find out. I'm relaunching my website. So hopefully, i don't know when this is posted.
01:01:12
Speaker
Hopefully we'll be updated. Things are taking way too long to get that. Remasculine.com. Remasculine.com. Is that what it'll be? Okay. well So remasculine.com. So we'll get you and then i'll I'll share the Instagram account. It'll be all clickable. Everybody in the comments below, if you're on Spotify, Apple, if you're on YouTube, it'll be...
01:01:29
Speaker
Kind of clickable. You have to YouTube doesn't allow clickable links, but I'll put it anyway and you could copy and paste it. This is YouTube. um So, yeah. um Also, if you want to know more and work, do some work with Pierre and I, because we kind of this is a lot of the work that we do. Go to menscollective.co.
01:01:48
Speaker
um We love to talk to you. um This is the kind of work that we do. So anyway, Brendan, I appreciate you. Thank you. All the way from Canada.
01:01:58
Speaker
I appreciate you too. And Pierre, of course, a pleasure. Thanks, Brendan.