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DSC: "Erigah" (s5e7) with Shereese (@SciFiSavage)
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BIG EVIL HELMETS. Michael Burnham must lead the Federation against a faction of the Breen Imperium in order to protect what they know about the Progenitors' technology from falling into the wrong hands -- but is Starfleet's bluff enough to stave off a hostile force, and is the episode a TREK, MARRY, or KILL? Bryan and Shereese investigate.
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Transcript
Introduction to Trek Mary Kill
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek Mary Kill... Breen, Dreadnought, Tribbles. Let's fly. here. You have no chance. neither of you understand what you're up against
00:00:38
Speaker
Check Mary Kill.
Influence of Historical Narratives on Star Trek
00:00:48
Speaker
podcast that doesn't mind a little bit of james clovell's showgun being mixed star trek sharee did you watch the new show game on f no i have not So this episode that we're about to discuss, I don't know if they had seen it ah beforehand, if it was in the air, if they were trying, if it was simply just coincidental, the inspiration for it. ah The FX Shogun is a remake. There was a miniseries, I believe in 1980, a very famous one that was a huge hit on TV at the time. And it's obviously based on a famous novel. Anyway, they clearly use the Shogunate
00:01:24
Speaker
history to inform the Breen ah politics of this episode. So that's what was going on there. ah So Erega is the episode we're discussing this week.
Deep Dive into Discovery's 'Erega' Episode
00:01:36
Speaker
It's the seventh episode of Discovery's fifth season, written by M. Raven Metzner, directed by John Dutkowski.
00:01:42
Speaker
It premiered on Paramount Plus May 9th, 2024. Memory Alpha describes it with mall and lock in custody. The Federation is pulled into a diplomatic and ethical firestorm when the brain demand that they be handed over. Meanwhile, Booker looks for ways to help as Tilly, Adira, and Reno work to decipher the latest clue. What Memory Alpha doesn't tell us.
00:02:02
Speaker
that this episode is largely about making sure the audience and all the characters have the exact same information to set up the final few episodes so we know what's going on with the big season arc. There's a green blood bounty on Locke by his uncle who's trying to ascend the throne and like in Shogun, a member of the Shogunate needs the family of the royal bloodline to approve their ascension. Meanwhile, Jet Reno tells Tilly and Tal where to find a manuscript by a Betazoid scientist that has the next clue. Basically, at some point 800 years ago, a Betazoid scientist like Amazon self-published a book and there's only a few copies of it and you got to find it to get the next clue ah to locate where the progenitor's tech is.
00:02:49
Speaker
Uh, and around all that is Burnham trying to extract information from Rainer that can help her negotiate with the Breen who are coming after Lachlan Wall. And he tells a story about how the Breen killed his family and destroyed most of his homeworld, Kelleran. That's the episode, uh, where Bashir and O'Brien bonded Armageddon game. We've been on that planet, or at least a very small pocket of it. Uh, it's been brutalized by the Breen that used as an outpost recently during the burn. Uh, and.
00:03:19
Speaker
And it's important to note that Burnham's takeaway from this conversation is that she's able to gain a tactical insight into the breed. They love to extract resources.
Diplomacy in Star Trek vs. Real-world Politics
00:03:30
Speaker
It kind of really pumps Rainer for information, then dumps him to the side. It's kind of a surprising scene. Anyway, Charisse, I guess my question, the topic of the day is, did any of that resonate in a way that felt real? For instance, in a measure of a man, the legal hearing had a patina of reality to it, mainly because it was written by a former lawyer. um So I'm just getting a sense, you're watching these politics, Tarina,
00:03:54
Speaker
our gal, President Tarina, behaving as an ambassador this time around, negotiating, the Breen, any of that feel real to you? I mean, that's a it's a weird question because we're talking about Star Trek, right? So all of it is fantasy, you know, all of it is sci fi. But I was okay with it. And I was okay with it because in the Star Trek universe, oftentimes entire planets are um ruled over by an individual, which is silly, right? But it's one individual who rules the entire planet. And they're often in negotiations with that individual, not they're like, emissaries or ambassadors, they're like face to face, they beam them off their planet. And everyone's cool with it. Everyone's like, yeah, this tracks. I mean, we also see
00:04:38
Speaker
the captains and especially in in Discovery, also going off to super dangerous away missions solo, sometimes with one buddy. you know it So there's kind of like these you ah power dynamics that don't that are not totally logical, but consistent. So I had no problem with it. I was like, yeah, this fits. this This fits to me that people can kind of swap in and out of the diplomatic seat when it's convenient for the show.
00:05:02
Speaker
I guess I was because there's the idea of extradition and just negotiating with the foe who has a single negotiating
Legal Themes in Star Trek
00:05:12
Speaker
stance, right? That we're trying to get a sense of diplomacy and action in a way. But from like a legal standpoint, we've actually seen Star Trek deal with a somewhat similar situation. Let that be your last battlefield. ah Someone was accused of a crime against the Federation.
00:05:29
Speaker
And so the enterprise was taking them into custody and they were being chased by ah basically a cop from this other place that wanted to prosecute him. And Kirk's like, sure, you'll get your time. But first he has to answer for his crimes against us, which was stealing a shuttle. By the way, he stole a car in in the Federation and they're like, listen, bud, you got to pay for that. And then afterward, we'll turn you over.
00:05:51
Speaker
to your people to do whatever racist shit they have planned. ah But at least in that case, it's like that has like a patina of reality to it. Like what is the reasons to delay handing him over so that there's no story. And in this one, it felt like they were very much trying to find ways to find ways instead of just playing a very like there's a bluff that's at the core of this episode ah where they're dealing where Burnham and Rayner allege that they've been dealing with another Primark off to the side to negotiate ah for an extradition that's more favorable. you know Bluffs, Star Trek, if you're a good Star Trek captain, you're good at bluffing. It just didn't have the it just came so late in the game, it just didn't feel like it was at anything that was meaningful. So what you have is a lot of people standing around in funny costumes, making ah kind of like,
00:06:45
Speaker
Royal demands like they're they're doing really bad Shakespeare cosplay of like you will hand them over immediately We will return in five minutes. It all is very arch in a way and and that's why I'm saying like it just felt very silly I I think I kicked off our Star Trek discovery coverage with admitting I'm a snob but also Roy Scheider star of Jaws doing his sea quest thing and being very unhappy with the direction of Sequest saying it's turned into Saturday afternoon trash. And at times, I think this episode didn't bother to create a reality beyond what if it was just a bunch of people in cool cosplay costumes, standing around making threats at each other. So the idea of a political episode, I guess is what I'm getting at is like, they i don't feel like they what they went for that it was fulfilled in the execution.
00:07:33
Speaker
Yeah, I'll give you that and I'll say right off the bat, I like this episode. um I enjoyed it. i didn't I had nothing against it. I mean, you're going to see in in the grades, I don't have grades for most of the categories. um So I didn't have much to like say as far as like, oh, this is so amazing. But I also did not have much to say about this is just the worst piece of, you know, like you're saying this is the worst show
Critique of Political Narratives and Breen Portrayal
00:07:52
Speaker
I've ever seen in my life. I didn't feel like that. But the one thing, the one thing that irritated me was the bluff and the the Breen conversations because they painted the Breen kind of like the Borg.
00:08:03
Speaker
like completely unreasonable. um We don't negotiate with terrorists. We are the terrorists. You know, we just show up and blow you away. So that every time they talk to the Primark about anything, I was like, this is stupid, because the Primark as far as how they painted the Primark should not have talked to them at all. They should have come in guns blazing. They should have immediately had a a boarding party. They should have immediately snatched um Locke and maybe shot them all. They should have done that based on who they are supposed to be as characters.
00:08:35
Speaker
Um, having any kind of diplomacy doesn't make any sense. Having any kind of conversation doesn't have make any sense. Falling for a bluff doesn't make any sense. Um, so that's the one thing where I was just like, well, these are these people, these characters are acting out of character based on who you've set them up to be. So I think for the Breen,
00:08:52
Speaker
It just didn't make sense to have anything political. It should have just been guns blazing, boarding parties, firefights down the hallways, you know, scores and scores of soldiers. We have so many to spare. The Dreadnought was huge. Like, we've got bajillions of soldiers to spare, and we're just going to keep sending them until we get what we want. And if we end up killing Locke in the process, so sad, but we're going to use that as well. We're just going to say, like, you killed him. and You can say anything, right? Because that's the kind of culture they are. Like, who's going to say they're wrong? Nobody.
00:09:20
Speaker
So they could just, you know, try to take lock. And if unfortunately they can't blow up the entire ship and all other ships and still go on their rampage. And I think that would have made more sense. I don't know how the writers would have written themselves out of that particular scenario. It's literally made more sense. And it would have been and it would have been fun to watch. It's the same setup. They they knew it. That's what I'm saying. Like, i I think I get what they were going for. They were trying to set up this huge threat and then resolve it without a single shot being fired.
00:09:49
Speaker
And I think i I respect that idea because you think there's going to be a huge battle. And then, they' of course, they're saving the huge space battle for the end. But ah the idea of like, well, how do we talk our way through this conflict? And it just seems like given everything else that's going on in the season,
00:10:06
Speaker
with like keeping track of the clues and the emotional arcs and finding an emotional reason to turn lock and mall from just Bonnie and Clyde into literally the emotional fulcrum of the resolution. Spoiler alert ah um about malls going to insert herself into it. She's out for revenge. She's doing it for love. All that stuff. I still think what they were going for ah noble, but I think what what it wound up being is a lot of just talking around the issue talking about the plot, it doesn't actually get into any meaningful story. um Like, what is the story of this episode? What is it about ultimately? And I don't know. I don't know. what I just know it's a bunch of standing around and threats being made and all that. Yeah. And that was silly. Like, they shouldn't make threats. The breed should not make threats. The breed should just shoot.
00:10:53
Speaker
Yeah. and According to how they've been written, right? They shouldn't they shouldn't ever have to be like, we are Breen. We're going to do this and we're going to do that. No, they should just come in and just start shooting. And they should be the kind of people who, if the Primark came to the ship to talk, his first move should have been to shoot someone.
00:11:11
Speaker
Like, yeah, immediately that's what I'm saying. There's nothing that distinguishes the brain. Yes. yeah That's him. that That's him being like the conversation over. Give me lock right now. You know what I mean? and You'd be like, oh, shoot, he just shot the president or something like that. You'd be like, oh, he's serious. Right.
00:11:25
Speaker
Yeah, the fact that they're beaming away and giving people five minutes or an hour. It's just like, yeah, this is all just why would they do that? Yeah. Why would they give them any time? Yeah, we need to have this scene. So we need to give them. We will give you five Earth minutes. Yes, exactly. It's like what what we need is but what they get, though, is if Locke's death brings about the same issue, this Primark can ascend.
00:11:48
Speaker
because now he could rally the Breen to this war with the Federation. Against the Federation, yeah. So that's clear. I get that. So the fact that he would be going to negotiate at all, that's what I'm getting at. It's what you said. It's like, why are they being the board? Like him coming to negotiate would be the wrinkle. That'd be interesting. And Tarina's like, there might be hope. There might be hope.
00:12:14
Speaker
or and then rainers like you can't trust in the brain don't negotiate they're up to something and turn is like that may be but we must utilize this opportunity right like that's that so that's the same setup it still gets you to the same ending um if this Primark knows they win either way ah Anyway, let's get into some production notes, which are eventually books will be written or ebooks will be written about the production of these new shows. But for now, we kind of get the kind of it's it disappointing. We get the show runners who go to.
00:12:47
Speaker
ah I'm sorry? Are we getting like blog notes instead? Yeah, we get blog notes. Yeah. But for the most part, the way we get information about the new shows is Alex Kurtzman and then the showrunner of the particular show will go to a panel at Comic Con or New York Comic Con or whatever, and they'll do it at the head of each season. And they'll kind of just give one big interview.
00:13:09
Speaker
And then that's it. And that's all we get. We don't get sometimes writers will appear on podcasts and talk about it and we'll get some more background details. It's happening more with Strange New Worlds than it does with Discovery. um It's it seems very piecemeal. It's not doesn't feel like how Star Trek's remained the past, which is not specifically a complaint TV is made differently from how Star Trek has made the best. But just in terms of our production notes, you know, it's nice to know some of these things, but they're kind of far away in Canada where they don't keep.
00:13:37
Speaker
where they they don't have as much of the stuff written down. But from Trek Core's review of the episode, they pointed out three key Deep Space Nine references. Raynor references the Romulan saying, never turn your back on a Breen, which was introduced in Deep Space Nine's by Inferno's Light. Raynor does another DS9 callback by suggesting the team use Thoron fields and Deranium shadows to bluff the Breen into believing Starfleet headquarters is more heavily armed than it is.
00:14:06
Speaker
ah that We first saw this in Emissary. ah Martok accuses the station of of pulling the same trick in the way of the warrior. That's the episode where Worf joins the show. And then Tilly mentions that the Breen destroyed a city the last time they entered Federation space, which seems to indicate that the Breen have stayed outside of Federation territory since they attacked San Francisco from orbit in the changing face of evil some 800 years prior.
Deep Space Nine References and Badlands Lore
00:14:32
Speaker
That is true. That comment actually raises some interesting points about making one of the clues an ambulatory target. ah Like that they're able to predict 800 years into the future where it's going to be. ah The entire clue trail subplot of the story is like I had to get a rag for my TV and wipe it down. It was sweating so much every time those scenes came up that they were just vamping and they're like, ah, it's metal. ah It's got a psychic imprinted on it. ah It's this ah talk to jet.
00:15:09
Speaker
So there's a lot going on there that I was like, do you know what you want to say here? And it's like, yes, it's an archive. We just need to make sure it's clear that they need to go to a library next. And we're just going to have the characters. A space library. I'm such a big book nerd. That space library sounds really exciting. I would love to visit that library.
00:15:32
Speaker
It's an actual, yeah, it's an actual library that they shot in, I believe. Is it? when When we see it next week, yeah. You know, it's so funny because I actually, like, I don't remember the last time I've written, I've read a book with pages, right? Because I always do audiobooks. And on rare, rare, rare occasions, I'll do a Kindle. um So I don't remember the last time I held a book. So I don't remember the last time I've been in a bookstore. But you love them.
00:15:53
Speaker
But I love reading, but I read like incessantly. So the idea of an actual, you know, um home for books is still very romantic to me. It's just very like comforting and like cozy and it represents everything that books mean to me, of which is like exploration and inspiration and knowledge and challenge and all these good things. So um i did I like this episode so much.
00:16:18
Speaker
because of the twist at the end, that I did finish Discovery yesterday. I finished watching it because I was like, I want to see what happens. And then I was a little disappointed. But anyways, I finished. So I did get to see the library and I'm excited to talk about it next time. Yeah, we'll talk about it next time.
00:16:34
Speaker
because you talking about is like why didn't they just what why wasn't one of the clues just in the past and they have to go back in time they can talk about libraries today and how they're important today anyway uh well i mean everything about the clues is is The fact that there are, like I said, I have to wipe down my TV whenever they're talking about those scenes. My TV's like these people are really nervous about they're really sweating this out. And of course, the last detail to mention was that the plasma storms are talking about the Badlands. They don't actually say the Badlands. They do say the Badlands. Oh, they do say the Badlands. OK, so that was conceived as part of Voyager's lore and reference in Deep Space Nine.
00:17:12
Speaker
and looks amazing. It looks way different as the Plasma Storm now than it did then, but it looks cool in both. It looks cool in both shows. I was like, oh, Pat lands, okay, okay. Uh-huh. All right, let's get into the grades. We'll start with great scenes.
00:17:27
Speaker
So now I'm thinking, does it make sense to call any part of space Badlands when it's literally no land at all? Okay, that's another conversation. I went to the Memory Alpha page on the Badlands because i was and enough of the Maquis story had leaked into TNG before it ended. I'm like, I'm pretty sure they never mentioned the Badlands in Next Generation. I want to make sure.
00:17:47
Speaker
So reading the memory alpha Badlands page, confirming it never was referenced in TNG, but Andrei Bormanis, the science consultant many years from next generation, or for start all the Star Trek's in the 90s, talked exactly like that. Said, it's conceivable that there would be an area of space that would be tough for spaceships to travel in, even our type of ships that we propose with phase we shields driving and all that. So yes, maybe they would call so you know strong solar winds,
00:18:15
Speaker
or a tough region like that, something like the Badlands, they'd have a name for it. So to your point. Yeah. But also to my point, just go around it. That's the other thing with space. It's like, yeah, when you're in space, go above it, go underneath it. You have so many options. You do not have to go in a straight line like you do on land where it's like, oh, there's water here. We have to cross the water. Like you don't have to do that in space. You just go around it. So sometimes they'll say, sometimes they'll mention that and they'll be like, it'll take too long.
00:18:42
Speaker
to go around it. And I'm like, that's way too long. We can possibly do that. And you're like, we don't have warp capability anymore. Or or what what happened?
00:18:52
Speaker
Yeah, they'll say, this area is far too large. OK, great scenes. I have one, the one you ridiculed a little bit earlier. I really enjoyed the heart-to-heart between Burnham and Raynor, because now I was like, oh, that's why Raynor is the way he is. That's why he's like a salty sea captain, because he grew up, you know, he's basically Roland, right? He grew up with like all these hard knocks and all this stuff. And I was like, oh, I kind of wished I would have known that earlier. Because this is what, episode seven, I think? Six or seven?
00:19:20
Speaker
Yeah, so I was like, oh, I kind of wish I would have known something about him like this earlier. So it would have explained why he's kind of no nonsense, why he's kind of gruff, why he's very like get to the point or whatever. um But then I thought, you don't always get backstories for all the characters the second you meet the characters. Like, that's the point of getting to know people, right? So I was like, okay, well, it took them some time. But I also felt like now I know this really important thing about him. And the show's almost over. So I guess that's another reason why I wanted it a little earlier. So maybe I could feel more connected to this character.
00:19:49
Speaker
We would have known it a little earlier if any of the other crew members did their homework on him like the way he did on them. Yeah. But they're just like, whatever, new guy. You're you're lucky to be here. Let me tell you how much I love ships. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So, yeah, I like that scene. I like that scene and I like the backstory and it made me understand Rainer better. And i I appreciate it, actually, the thought that went into the character even more after hearing the backstory. I was like, oh, like how they did with Ro Laren and we got her backstory in her intro episode. So you're like, I don't know why she's that way. I was kind of wiped out after that scene though, when she says, thank you for talking.
00:20:28
Speaker
I kind of just was like, I can't believe that's the sentiment that she leaves it with. I mean, because it's like, you know, a hard conversation he didn't want to share. And so she's acknowledging his vulnerability. Like I get it, but I, i in that in that scene, I was kind of like,
00:20:43
Speaker
Okay, so back in TNG, we had those two episodes called Chain of Command with Captain Jellicoe. And Captain Jellicoe is the worst, right? He's just like such a jerk. However, he was the perfect person for that scenario. He was no nonsense. He was not trying to sit around singing kumbaya with the crew. He was like, we got a job to do, we're gonna do it. We're gonna do it my way or the highway because this is a life or death situation and this is how it needs to be. He was the perfect person for the job, right? And so I i could not help but think of Jellicoe again in this scene where I was like,
00:21:11
Speaker
wow, he just shared something that was really hard to talk about. And also, there's like, a huge dreadnought that's going to destroy us in five Earth minutes or whatever, right? So I'm like, my my thinking was we need to be a jellico in this moment and be like, great, thank you for that information. Wish you had given it to me earlier. But great, we have it now. Let's use it. Let's move forward. Let's get these people from killing us. That's what I was thinking and said, she's like, thank you. I really appreciate you sharing what's been in your heart. This is not the time. This is not the time. So that for me, there's like this thing in me where I'm just I was feeling like,
00:21:42
Speaker
which I guess I didn't need to because the breed apparently were no threat at all. But on the inside I was thinking like, this is not the time for the worm and fuzzies. We're going to save that for when we're out of imminent danger. So when we're out and we can have that conversation. She excited it. She wanted the conversation. No, we needed the conversation for the backstory. I mean, the conversation for thank you for sharing. That part, thank you for sharing. Thank you for being vulnerable. She doesn't say thank you for sharing. We'll talk about that later. She doesn't say like, I know that was difficult.
00:22:06
Speaker
I'm glad you told me that. She says thank you for talking, which is like the most bland Hallmark statement like customer service Amazon robot stuff like you are not connected to that person in that moment at all when you say thank you for talking that is I have another email to send let me get back to my job, but in like the most heartless way in a way that's just like Was he opening up? What was she using him? She wasn't using him. She came into him, but came to this conversation trying to understand what's going like. You're I need you and I am. I feel like I'm losing you right now. So what's going on? And he tells her and she just goes, thank you for talking anyway. I did. I did like the backstory because he delivered it so well. um that That's a good one. I had no great seats.
Character Consistency and Writing Challenges in Discovery
00:22:50
Speaker
OK, how about best tropes? Did you have any good tropes?
00:22:53
Speaker
I did not have any best trek tropes. Maybe if you talk talk it through, all I'll land, on I'll agree with one. um I also did not have any best trek tropes. um I did have a trope. I have i have three bad tropes, but then I had a fourth one that I cannot tell if I like it or not. And I've said this before, and it was the like giving them the one hour and then giving them the five minutes. In this case, I think it was stupid, but in general, just in general, having some kind of ticking clock, I think sometimes,
00:23:23
Speaker
in this case is bad, so this would be a worse trek trope. But sometimes it's really good, right? Like when it's- I love chicken clocks, you just have to justify them. You do anything in a story, you have to earn it there. So she's like, we need four hours for us to do this.
00:23:39
Speaker
extradition paperwork yeah paperwork and he goes you have one hour but what if he had the extradition paperwork after the hour like that's what i'm saying like was this a political episode was this a legal episode are the breen the breen can build these ships and have this imperium and they're not good at the law they're not good at extradition they're not like aware that the federation is going to try to pull some hinky lawyer shit they're not going to be ready for that they know what i mean like We're just getting the, no, I'm just a cool guy in a helmet and I'm going to stand around and be a badass and then make petulant child demands. He did look cool though. He did really look cool. Except when he's the giant helmet. Except the giant helmet, which is weird. Did they do that before with giant heads in the middle? Have you done that before? No, I'm not sure and just watching that going like... This feels like they're thinking on the audience they're like you like star trek so much you'll be okay with it. This is embarrassing have you ever seen doctor who it reminds you doctor who. That's I won't go there I think it's I've watched enough of it to be like this is not for me I'm not a child I'm not a British child.
00:24:49
Speaker
I'm not a British child. Well, there's a character on Doctor Who, who is a giant head. And it reminds me of that, of that character. His name is the face of Beau. It reminds me of that giant head character where it's just like, where's the, where's the rest of you, dude? Like well yeah what happened? Yeah. Um, okay. So I had three, so yeah, the tick the ticking clock was like not on the list because I was like, sometimes I like it because I'm like, yes, this gives me, it focuses what they're doing but then sometimes it stresses me out because they'll have like three seconds left and they're still trying to like connect the dots on tic-tac-toe or whatever and I'm like oh my gosh you have three seconds right and sometimes like this case it just there's a time for no for no reason at all so anyways it it's a trope and then for the worst tropes the first one I have is when Tilly tells Adira that they are awesome and they should be confident and I remembered what you said maybe the last episode of the episode before where you said Adira's every single storyline is
00:25:41
Speaker
them being very nervous and not confident and some adult coming along and saying, you're awesome. You should be confident. And then being like, you're right. And then we do it all over again, the next episode. And so we were doing it all over again, this episode. And I was like,
00:25:55
Speaker
Wow, Brian's right. This is every, every Adira storyline. However, this time there was no nothing for Adira to Marshall. It was really actually a Tilly moment, more than a Adira moment. It was just Tilly realizing like, wow, Adira's come so far. What am I doing with my life? I feel like it was the point of that. But anyways, I put it in worst trick tropes because poor Adira, like this character couldn't grow to save their lives.
00:26:17
Speaker
I did a subplot to that. I have is as my work structure is it became the uppercase? Yeah, they did. ah ah ah Zora, and I thought should I do a supercut of all the us? And then that's just too mean because I don't know what's written and what's performed because it could be a ah mixture of both where the us are actually written in the script. Yeah. um I feel like they are.
00:26:38
Speaker
I feel like they are. I would hope they are because it makes them look really bad. And only actors are capable of doing stuff that makes them look bad and not and just be OK with it. Just do what's written. You know, I mean, like if an actor is doing that naturally and people don't like it, the director or the producer will stop them. Right. But so it has to be written because they look really bad when they do it anyway.
00:27:02
Speaker
And if they don't do it, the director will be like, Hey, you forgot to say ah three times. and that laugh sentence That's right. I'm not getting yeah nervous here. Yeah, exactly. I could ah think of something else. Yeah. So the second worst trope was books, empathic abilities.
00:27:19
Speaker
were needed to solve the clue just like back on trail. And I just wrote, what are the odds of having an empath handy in these particular different, you know, um on the clue trail for these five different clues? You're assuming that at least one out of the almost always two people who are going to find the clue has empathic abilities. And so I thought was this like way more common 800 years ago than I'm recalling from the other shows that like almost everyone's an empath. So surely someone will be able to empathically connect with the alien species and empathically read thoughts onto this library card chip. So I put it as a worst trope just because of the it's not. So okay, I'm really getting I love mysteries. I love crime shows. I'm so right now I'm getting into all these classical mystery stories. And the thing about a great mystery is that it drops enough clues for you to even if you can't figure out the mystery,
00:28:10
Speaker
When it's revealed, you feel like you could have figured out the mystery. but They gave you enough clues where you feel like, if I would have caught this or that, I could have done it. And I don't feel like this with that with this clue trail. It's like, what are the odds that they would figure out any of these clues? they They don't seem... Um, they seem way too hard, basically. It's like a 10,000 piece puzzle and every piece is white. It's just too hard, but miraculously they have exactly what they need, exactly when they need it. And that's not as satisfying as if I get to see them being really clever or resourceful in a way that anyone could do it. If they had, you know, the, the cleverness or whatever the intelligence versus like a special ability that most people don't have. And then the third trope was I just put dumb villain, the fact that
00:28:54
Speaker
the Primark fell for the bluff. and And when Locke was in the sickbay and, and um Burnham was like, I'll get a medic, I'll get a Breen medic. And then the Primark comes down with the medic and like a whole team. And then they sit and like try to give him medical care. I was like, just beam him off. Like just Just beam him off what and it's the whole we can't transport him because he'll be it. Okay. Well, he's already injured He's literally dying just beam him to your sickbay. Just do it now. There's no reason for the Primark to come There's no reason for medics to come so all anyways all of that I put as a worst trope also, although I don't know how often I've seen this particular trope But you never want a dumb villain if we're gonna have a villain you want them to be formidable.
00:29:38
Speaker
I've never seen a good villain in this particular era of Trek. And I mean, it's probably, there's far more Archie villains, arch villains in Star Trek history than there are really great ones. ah You know, Khan is obviously right on the line. You know, it's just like, so it's just, it's tricky, but yes, you're absolutely right. You have to,
00:30:03
Speaker
You have to look at these things once you figure out what the plot is, then you have to dig in and figure out how it all connects. Like, how does it work? And I genuinely think that Discovery has so little time to write their scripts that it actually works against them.
00:30:19
Speaker
The more they complicate the story. So like we agreed, we all were like, great. What a simple concept for a season. Right. For once, like we're going to find five items, but then like you're saying they don't have time. There's a, I don't know. I don't remember the saying, I apologize for writing this so long for writing it poorly. Basically the more you over writing is a sign of you've written it quickly. And the more time you take the more concise it becomes the sharper it gets.
00:30:46
Speaker
And a lot of discovery and a lot of the new shows, it's evidence of they have a very contained amount of time to write episodes. It's only 10 episodes. So you might be like, well, how's that hard? But it is like they do write complicated stuff and they kind of just rush through them. And then that's it. They have to the way the shows are now made, they're bifurcated. So once shooting starts, the writing staff, they don't pay them anymore. That's changing now.
00:31:13
Speaker
But at least for this, when this show was made, it's like you've got three months, maybe, maybe four to write all 10 episodes. And usually you've got, you guys spend time revising these to kind of tighten them up. So finding the motivation is not as compelling as how do we throw.
00:31:30
Speaker
the emotional reasoning for what really matters to us. So like the brain matter as a special effect in a space battle, but they don't matter as characters because they didn't have time. So they're like, we we have we'd rather we justify Maul's actions for the finale. We'd rather we emotionally set up books, drive for the finale. And to that point, what you were saying,
00:31:54
Speaker
about the empathic part that they shoehorned book so hard into this episode that it it was heartbreaking because he's one he finds the escaped prisoner and Stamets is like you have to stay here since you're here solve this and then book who actually really cares a lot more about connecting with one of the few people of his kind that are left actually stays and then just reads the the card and has the psychic thing and then he rushes off so it's just like this is silly this is like a bit it's like a joke right I've got something really important to do but I'll solve your stupid problem real fast like that it it doesn't feel ah real and I know it's Star Trek but
00:32:38
Speaker
star trek trades on real emotions just to find the most ridiculous stuff you've ever seen but when the stuff is ridiculous then you're not it's all ridiculous and it just it seemed ridiculous in the moment for book given what we've been told about him and how he's been behaving even in this episode. He's like, I want something to do. And no one would give him anything to do. And then he finally finds something else for him to do. And then finally, one of the characters grows a backbone and tells him that they need him to do something. You know what I mean? Like, it's just silly stuff to justify the exact plot point they need in the moment. So you're you're pointing out they have the characters they need.
00:33:13
Speaker
but they're being written in such a way that they're only doing stuff to move the plot, not organic to the character, not organic even to the emotional stakes they're setting up in the episode. And it's just frustrating.
00:33:25
Speaker
yeah it's frustrating and it It would be more satisfying if the characters were true to how they were written, because then you'd be like, yeah, that's totally what that person would do. Right. Even if they do a bad thing, like I'm thinking about the show Battlestar Galactica, the characters who did things that were like horrible,
00:33:39
Speaker
Those characters were consistent. They consistently did things. You would you understood exactly like when they did something horrible, you're like, yep, just like them. That's exactly what they would do. You know what I mean? Like it fit with their character. And um yeah, they have they have the characters. And I feel like Adira is extremely consistent, probably the most consistent character on this entire show. Well, sure. You just control if you're just control, see, control being every scene that they're in, which makes them extremely consistent. yeah So yeah, I think that I think you're right for sure the Breen were inconsistent with their characters to me in this episode and I won't say book was inconsistent with this character I but I just I but I think you're right the set like the setting what he was being asked to do was inconsistent with Matching with book. It was just like okay. Hey guys, what's going on? I got nothing to do There's huge security threat with someone who I have a connection with and also I'm good with like security threats But I think I'm just gonna like sit here and scrub the floor or something. I don't know, you know, it's just like
00:34:34
Speaker
Yeah. You could have, I don't know. And I don't really know why that, why that was a thing either. Why they were like, Oh, he has to be in engineering. Oh, I know why. Cause it was beta Z and he's the only one who could read the psychic clues. But why does this have psychic clues? Why does it even have psychic clues?
00:34:52
Speaker
Why was that a part of it? I didn't even know betazoids can imprint stuff with psychic clues. That seems like you're going way out of bounds for even plausible fake science fiction fantasy. We had some like that. The betazoids enchanted a token. We had something like that in TNG, Eye of the Beholder, where this guy killed some people, and he psychically imprinted on the warp cord. Do you remember that? That is an excellent counter-argument. Is not the point of Eye of the Beholder, though, sort of like the Amityville horror?
00:35:29
Speaker
where something so terrible happens, it it like creates a situation. That's different. Yeah, that's something yeah that's different from then like psychic empathically licking something to mark your territory, which is what is implied in this episode. This episode is not saying this was found in like a tense emotion. So no, actually, Stamets is something like Basically because the other, the beta zoid scientists like touched it. They just, just they held it laid like imprints all their thoughts upon it somehow that stuck for 800 years. Yeah. There's so much stuff in this episode that happens off screen that then gets explained to us. Like the whole, how lock and mall are captured. I'll get into this later, but basically and in discovery, especially because these people are from the past now in the future, there's so much new lore over the last three seasons that the
00:36:20
Speaker
that they've delivered in this way like Stamets does in this one as everybody knows. beanoids I mean they don't say that but the way it's delivered it's like as everyone knows this fundamental thing about a Star Trek species that you thought is not true and they can do this other thing that's like wait this is weird as i yeah I mean, it could. ah How do you mit how do you mitigate that if you want to make it? The thing is, you have to want to make a deal out of it instead of it just be an affect, just like you're trying to get the plot out. Like if it if you actually took the time to justify it, it'd be like this must have had an extremely intense, emotional Like it must've been imprinted the moment that the scientist died or something, some kind of reason. And then we buy it. Something traumatic or yeah, something big, like this must be a huge deal. Like, can't just do this. But no, so it's just like... We can just do this. Yeah. You didn't know that? so why does she have a Yeah. Why does anyone have a journal if they can just put their emotions onto objects?
00:37:21
Speaker
Why don't they write anything down? She just holds the teddy bear every every night and then you hold that teddy bear and all of her feelings are in it. like i don't Because of course you're going to have many, many people in your crew who are empathic and can read teddy bear feelings. and other tre true No Troops. Nope, that's it. i To be honest, now I'm talking through, I'm like, go if you're going to go that way, go all the way, let's see the teddy bear with all the feelings there.
00:37:47
Speaker
Right. Cause you would not be complaining about that at all. The psychic diary. Uh, that makes sense. All right. Most cosplayable care. Oh, mine were, I already mentioned most of them, but like I'm putting the Starfleet bluff here because it was so bad.
00:38:01
Speaker
Yeah, like it it made it made Burnham and Rainer and the Starfleet side look dumb and then it made the Breen look worse for extra um for it like supremely stupid. I mean Picard had a bluff when he faced off the Romulans, but he had the Klingons cloaked behind him the whole time because we at least got a line that he was like.
00:38:23
Speaker
Did you talk to Chancellor Gower on for me like early in that episode? And then it's revealed I'm not bluffing. I got the Klingons at my back. Romulans, what do you want to do? and And so like, why didn't we see this other Primark? Why couldn't you talk to another giant head?
00:38:38
Speaker
and get an assurance or something you know it's just like that's what but also the brain character if we're gonna think and you know this is this is me as a viewer first time not knowing anything about the brain really um but as they've been painted from what i've seen in this season They don't seem like the kind of people who are into diplomacy and negotiating and whatnot. So why would the other Primark have ever negotiated? The same argument of why would this Primark ever negotiate? Why would the other Primark ever negotiate? Like it's just like not, I feel like they shouldn't even have a word for that in their language. like I like that idea. I like that idea. I just to make, to earn that scene where Burnham tells, dismisses Rainer with, thanks for talking. Glad you got it off your chest, but I got my data point.
00:39:24
Speaker
The idea that resources could be a negotiation point, that would may be a face for me where they go to this Primark saying, hey, want to we we want to give you something. We need you to like cool this guy down. What do you want for that?
00:39:39
Speaker
and then like That's what a negotiation would be like. We need you to do this. ah Would you be involved? We need you to stop this. That's what I'm saying. Like, if why would they negotiate? No. But would they do something if they were offered something? yeah Maybe that's the only way I could think it would work, because you're absolutely right. As portrayed, you seem like implacable, ah ridiculous. There's not even a firm footing. Tarina is supposed to be incredibly ah you know intelligent and a negotiator and the president of a planet. And
00:40:11
Speaker
and And just like they've got nothing. They they really don't have anything to to come at these the the oncoming green with. And it's it's kind of galling that you're still forming the episode around what if we introduce this big villain that could blow us up and not a single shot is fired and we we talk our way through the problem. and ah But they everyone looks stupid while they're doing it because the brain falls for a bluff and the Federation has nothing anyway.
00:40:38
Speaker
Yeah. They should have gotten into this huge fire fight. It didn't even need to be the whole episode. It could just been, they show up and they start, and they start blasting and then they're like, Oh, they're not going to negotiate. And then they like black alert and jump away and then lock dies. Well, there's a lot of things. something And then you're like, Oh crap. You know, now we've lost our bargaining chip. And then you're like, Ooh, how are they going to get out of this? Then that'd be super interesting. My but problem now each you would be decimated. Well, that would be an interesting counterpoint to the part of the prophecy.
00:41:08
Speaker
seeing it in the future when they did the time jumping that it's true, but just not in the way they figured, which is a great, it's a great part of mysteries. When you, you see something through one lens and you think, Oh, and then you see it through the other lens and you're like, Oh, this is not what I thought it was. oh It wasn't the Virginia Tech. It was us showing up with lock. That's what's right. That's right. And you're like, Oh man.
00:41:30
Speaker
But there was, you know, there's a lot of ways that the story could have gone. We could have just started in that Terran escape pod, that mall and locker in that we never see them in. And they could have, that's why I think they should have, that's why they should have stolen book ship shuttle. And then you could have started on there and then he saves her and he dies saving her. And so, because his death, the way he goes out is tough. It's not good.
00:41:54
Speaker
Not that he dies just the way that it happens and so if he's sacrificing himself and we see it and it's just the two of them. Then I think that still gets you exactly everything that you're trying to accomplish the rest of the way mall still motivated to bring him back to life.
00:42:12
Speaker
You know, she could recover his body in space. What I'm saying is like there's like a whole breach and he likes he saves her. He risks himself to save her. And then it's just something like that, where it's the consequences of their own actions that lead to the thing so that they're motivated not strictly by the overarching story, but what they're doing in the moment.
00:42:33
Speaker
So I don't know. ah But we're just so far afield of the Indiana Jones story once we get into these deeper politics. But I'm all about keeping it as simple as possible. And if mo and if Locke is already dead when the brains show up, what's that story? I think that's a more interesting story to be. And from the brains perspective, if he's just as, and you know, as helpful of a figure alive or dead for the Uncle Primark,
00:43:00
Speaker
doesn't matter. If they show up and he's dead, they just blast it out of like they basically the if they show up and just start firing on discovery, no questions asked, no hailing, no conversation, they just start firing on discovery. And let's say Michael also did her like mind voodoo and found out that he's the direct locks the direct direct descendant of the Emperor and all that stuff. He's the scion.
00:43:19
Speaker
They still could have had this where she could be like, no, they're going to negotiate. They're not going to shoot because we've got the scion on board. And that's our leverage. And then Tarina's like, OK, we've got a plan. Let's have a plan. And then they show up and they just start shooting. And they're like, you can't shoot. We've got the scion here. We've got leverage. And they're like, live or dead. Doesn't matter to us. Pew, pew, pew, pew. You're like, oh, crap. Everything we thought was wrong. But that would completely undermine their message of we can talk it out because there'd be no talking. But man, that would make a much more interesting story.
00:43:49
Speaker
And it would be more true to the character of the Breen. And, like, I feel like it would not break the fictive bubble. You'd be like, wow, i I didn't think they would come in shooting. I thought they'd at least talk. But yeah, shooting makes more sense. Yeah. You know, and then Discovery jumps away and they're damaged, but they have to like fix themselves. And you're like, OK, well, now what? I would want to watch. Like, I would be like, what's the next episode? What are they going to do? The more compelling thing. And then you can add on to that, where we've got to stay and protect or head HQ and then that's when Burnham is about to give an order or something and she gets zapped into the infinity room in that moment and she's like remember the red directive takes all precedent and she's like but if there's no federation to go back to and he's like this will and this will probably save the federation
00:44:37
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like you do that. So you got to leave. So I don't know. But yeah, that's about stakes and it's about drama. Right. But if you're really committed to one concept, you you might miss the forest for the trees. All right. Most cosplayable character or moment? I mean, I didn't really have one in this episode. I put i just went with the obvious Primark rune in the helmet.
00:44:56
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like I picked the Breen every episode. So yeah, I mean, the Breen look cool, but I didn't have anything different from anything I said before. You can't even do Commander Nan who returns, one of my least favorite characters, the Yum Yum character. But she doesn't even have her Barzan cooling thing on anymore. Yeah, that's why I didn't recognize her.
00:45:17
Speaker
ah so I don't know, yeah, it's gotta be them. I'd like to see someone try to do the big giant head to do the Emperor's face shot. I don't know how you would cosplay that, but maybe just make a giant helmet. Yeah, you can make a giant head, yeah. You just have a giant head. And maybe you strap something around your chest and then have a little platform come out and have little characters on it. It'd be pretty funny. It'd be pretty funny. Now it's time for the line must be drawn. Great lines.
00:45:49
Speaker
I liked the line where Book said to Mal, Locke is your world. Don't miss the chance to be there for him and there with him. Honestly, I did not know Locke was going to die. So I kind of thought i thought this was kind of a bluff. And then when she showed up and was just like, oh, there you are. And then he died. I was like, what wait, what? and i And then I was really glad that Book said that. like I liked the line even better because how sad would that have been for them to have this love for the ages. And he sacrificed himself so she can get away, but then she doesn't get away. So whether whatever she did, she was she was not gonna get away. um But then for her to come back and it's too late, like he died before she walked into the room or something like that, like, oh man, that would just, kind of like we were talking that last time about the race and how Rava could see the finish line, but she couldn't quite make it. Kind of made me think of that where had she not gone back to see at least his last breath,
00:46:40
Speaker
she would have come back one minute too late or five earth minutes too late, which would have been just really, really sad. I was already sad, but it would have been like, Oh, come on. Like, come on guys. You can't even say goodbye. So I really liked that line. What about you? Did you have any good lines this time?
00:46:55
Speaker
Burn them. What's worse than death? This conversation for starters.
00:47:01
Speaker
kind ah Lock stuck in a brig is just another kind of stuck. And then Tarina, unfortunately, it seems there is little to be lost by allowing this and much to be lost by keeping her. So this is when they're discussing what to do. Should they let the brain take mall? And I have a little bit more to say on that in a second because I think it's a fine
Dramatic Moments and Narrative Failures
00:47:23
Speaker
idea. ah I just, again, was screaming, going like you're setting, you were setting it up to do something else and this is how you execute it. So anyway, so a good line in a moment that I'm still like, why? Why is it happening this way?
00:47:37
Speaker
I don't understand. All right, would this episode be a fun holo novel to play out? We actually have a reference to this grade. I did not plan this question when we started this new season with this in mind. But Reno has this line where she goes, ah sounds like something out of a holodeck adventure for the littles, right? No, I did not plan this. It was not taken from Jet Reno as much as I love Tick Notaro. But would this be a fun holo novel to play out?
00:48:05
Speaker
Yeah, I put no. I think the only fun part would be fighting in the sick bay. Everything else about this episode, I wouldn't want to play. Yeah, it'd be boring and you'd have to remember a lot of stuff that people were telling you that you never saw it all happened off screen. Do we need to remember it though? Yeah. Yeah. And then ah another part of it dramatically, there's a lot of stuff the audience knows. So then we still have to take time to explain it to our characters, the Starfleet characters who didn't know a lot of this stuff.
00:48:31
Speaker
and ah and folks, that is an inefficient, an inefficient degree of writing. you If you're duplicating information, we're also on streaming. So there's like a weird CBS edict, like the network of like, we have to treat this like a network TV show where people are not paying attention and they need to be reminded constantly of what's going on. And this episode is very guilty of that. And I think with streaming, even with the commercial tier, you still have the quick, you can go back.
00:49:02
Speaker
the subti like There's so much that streaming affords you that you don't need to do the strict CSI version of write of TV writing, which is you're constantly restating what's going on. But literally in this episode, and I finally clocked it because this is another issue I've always had with Discovery, is that they will repeat information in the same scene.
00:49:22
Speaker
So i have a perfect so in the hall novel why would i want to be sitting through the scene where tareena starts off in the right when we come back from the cold open they're all sitting around and talking about the breen coming tareena says that there is a political battle going on behind the scenes for who's taking to take over the government.
00:49:41
Speaker
And then two minutes later, she says, Saru reported that there is infighting to determine who's going to elevate in there. It's like, I already know that. You started the scene with this information. Why are you repeating? Oh, okay you need to remind us Saru is around, even though he's not in his episodes. But he again, she's repeating the same information. So this would be an agonizing hollow novel to play out. This would be like, am I being punished hollow novel?
00:50:11
Speaker
And then the computer would be like, in this scene, you have to sit down and coax information out of a distressed co character and then pay attention because something they'll say will give you the next clue for what you need to do next. Yeah, I would fail. I would absolutely fail. ah The Anton Caridian Award for Best Performance. Good luxury. Yeah, I didn't have anyone for this category and I did not have anyone for the Shatner either. Oh, for the Shatner, I said all the Breen.
00:50:42
Speaker
Paul, if you're a Breen, sorry, even Locke, Elias Tafexas, you're going for it at all times. um Yeah, i don't I almost wanted to give it to book, but I don't particularly like how those scenes that he's in. I think the actor's doing a good job. I was surprised by Sinequa Martin-Green's performance in this episode. She's kind of all over the place, but that's also because I think, again, the material's all over the place.
00:51:09
Speaker
um So it was tough for me to say that someone gave an outstanding performance. I mean, we could give it to our arg gal, Tarina.
00:51:19
Speaker
For what? Just being a Vulcan. Okay. Just chilling, I don't know. Let's give it let's give it to the Primark. Okay, so the Shatner and the, yeah. Yeah, both. We're going to give them both to the Primark. Good. right Shoot to thrill, most exciting imager sequence.
00:51:37
Speaker
So this is not exciting, but I always like this. It's when Dr. Colbert did a 3D scan of Locke's vital organ. Dr. Colbert. Dr. Colbert. Dr. Colbert. Yeah, I'm thinking of Stephen Colbert when he said Dr. Colbert. That's exactly who I thought of when I said that. Dr. Colbert, I'm going to say that again.
00:51:58
Speaker
I like when Dr. Colbert does the 3D scan of Lox Vital Organ. um its like a new It's not even a new CGI tech technique to to visualize. like They've been doing this on CSI for at least 15 years or something, but it's still cool and I still like it and I think it's just really neat. and I wish this was a thing that we could do without us having to go into MRIs and CT scans and stuff like that.
00:52:19
Speaker
Have you ever been in an MRI before? I have. And this would be better. For sure. I would first of all just hold their hand up and then like visualizes my whole like skeletal system or whatever. um I have had an MRI and a CT scan and this would be better than both of those and x-rays. Again, better. So then the other one is um I really liked the scene where the dreadnought shows up and the hallway literally darkens. Because they're in space, you would think it's always dark, but it's not. It's always nice and bright and sunny.
00:52:48
Speaker
Um, and so I liked the scene when like the hall gets dark and all three of them look up and they're like, what the heck? Cause I was, cause I was also like, what it what is that? I thought the lights in the ship were going down. I didn't realize that there, there was a view screen over there. I didn't know they had a sunroof in the hallway. Did not know that. Cause I don't think I've seen that before in a starship.
00:53:05
Speaker
Um, you know what they may not have. They, they just put it there for that shot. im I mean, I can't remember either, but we can say, we can say discovery has skylights sprinkled about. Sure. Why not? And, um, but anyways, I liked how it looked when like it darkened and they all looked up like, Oh, oh something's coming. And then you see this gigantic dreadnought. I thought that was really cool.
00:53:26
Speaker
I just thought it was, I like the ah sequence where book reads the telepathic imprint on the library card. Yeah. I like his empathic dots. Those are. Oh yeah. I like those too. That's the part about books telepathy or empathy that I've always appreciated of like it. You can see it taking an effort. It's not always on, you know, and it's, you can see it be activated yeah and you can see it get stronger, which is neat. It's a Bluetooth signal.
00:53:54
Speaker
It is. It's neat that they're doing this like think up yeah this ethereal, non-intangible thing, and they're doing it visually, so we can appreciate it. Because he could just put his finger to his head and like squeeze his eyes closed, right? And he'd be like, okay, he's doing it. But they took it to another level. When they had no money, that's how they would do it. Then this way, they had money, so they'd do it. What part of this will they teach at Starfleet Academy? God, I hope nothing.
00:54:18
Speaker
ah Well, I put how the Breen government works because I'm not sure from this episode if this is common knowledge or not common knowledge. I wasn't quite sure. They're very clear that we know very little about the Breen, except for what we know about the Breen. We know very little about it. Right. So I was like, I don't know if they learned more now than they knew before, like maybe about the scion. That's something to go into the school books.
00:54:42
Speaker
I mean, I'm sure there's negotiations. How do you deal with an implacable foe? You have to be able to be ready to show force. They never seem ready to show force. We've got the you know, what we've got the ships coming back to provide a off defense. It's strange that HQ is pretty naked. But in any case, and in any case, ah yeah, something about negotiations, maybe they would like. HQ can jump as well, right? That little spiral thing can move? I thought so. I think so. I thought it had this little cloak, too. It's a little dimension pocket. or Yeah, I thought we saw it jump like in another episode or something like that. So yeah, I don't know why it's just chilling by itself. Well, they kept making a point to be like, they can track our jump signature. I'm like, OK, well.
00:55:26
Speaker
Instantly, though, I don't know. I'm just like, well, what do you what do you trying what's the drama you're trying to get at that you might have to fight them and you don't want to that you might have to fight them and you'll lose ah that you might have to do something. You know, it's like I'm not sure what the actual issue is ah here. Like the Breen want this guy. OK, he's not on the station. Go chase Discovery. You know, I mean, like that could have been a tactic to where someone is like the logical course of action is for you to get out of here.
00:55:54
Speaker
Take him with you, make it very clear that he's on your ship. Why bring him back here? Why get involved at all? If it's, if it's not an issue, we're not prepared to handle the Breen. I don't know. Um, that's cause it seems very clear that they're not prepared to handle the Breen and the Breen oblige them as you say, by not being the Breen that we were yeah told that they are. So could this episode have been hornier? And would that have made it better? I will say yes. I did want one last kiss between Mullen lock.
00:56:23
Speaker
But I guess the prosthetics just make that very intangible, I would imagine. um But yeah, I did want i did want that. like they did They did have a final goodbye, but wasn't very there was no passion, which felt weird because they're like such a passionate couple. So that was my thought. What about you? I totally agree. So Trek, Marry, or Kill, Eregah. See, I still give it a Trek. I liked it. I thought the Breen stuff was stupid, but I liked the episode. That's more than half the episode.
00:56:53
Speaker
Well, by brain stuff, I mean the fact that they fell for the bluff. But I did like getting back to the arena. But the bluff itself was dumb. the bluff was The bluff itself was dumb. I agree. I did like um the Reno backstory. I did like Mal and Locke. Like, well, can you like that? I don't know. i I don't know if you can like that. Locke died. That was actually really sad. I think it's incredibly tough to have two kinetic characters just standing in front of a bio bed for most of the episode and for us to find them compelling. And I credit to those actors for making it
00:57:27
Speaker
Any in any way interesting, but it wasn't particularly interesting. The Jet Reno backstory, all that stuff, that storyline for the clue was superfluous. It was irrelevant. So like ultimately the solve for finding out where the moving library is. Once Reno tells them it's a library card.
00:57:45
Speaker
Like all the other stuff that's going on is irrelevant. The Badlands, like we don't really need that. It's just like it's there to be there. So it just feels like a waste of time. This episode to me felt so you enjoyed it fine. I'm a kill. if This felt very much like a homework. Like you're a Star Trek fan, so you have to watch this episode and so we can do whatever we want in it, which is we have other episodes that we need to spend more time on. So you get what what you get. I just didn't feel very much like there was this much craft.
00:58:14
Speaker
There's more I thought there was more and and intention and thought put into the previous episode where where you're trying to tell a story with Tilly and ah no one has an arc in this. No one has an arc in the story. No, I feel like the Rayner stuff is good because he's good and every basically we spotlighted you spotlighted his scene with Burnham. But those two together are incredible. So it's just like that's where you get it. But all right. So another vote.
00:58:42
Speaker
The listeners will decide if it's a trek or a kill for Eriga. Alright, we're in the home stretch here now. We've got 8, 9, and 10 coming up. we didn't We didn't talk about the fact that Mole is secretly married to Locke. That was a good twist. And that she like is suddenly like, I'm married to him and something, something, and I'm going to give you the power. I did not see any of that coming. Although I guess it's true to Mole's character that she would do something you know to for self-preservation, I guess. But I did not see that coming. That was another twist. I think that's probably why it's higher than a kill for me is because
00:59:17
Speaker
The bad sides were the brain doing things that I didn't expect, but the good sides were like things just in the storyline that I did not, um, that I did not see coming, which usually you see what's good. Okay. This is going to happen and then they're going to resolve it and then they're going to get the clue. And like, you kind of know what's going to happen. But this one, this totally shocked me. I did not see Locke dying at all. Like I thought they were going to somehow rescue him at the last second.
00:59:40
Speaker
And I mean granted he killed himself but I did not think he was gonna die and then um when mall join the brain I didn't see that coming either so. This is we didn't talk about this. The the mall joining the brain scene. um Why is she able to join with them again? Because she's married. So she's in the club. So they're like, well, that means you're you have to follow our laws. So we're taking you with us to because they were they were they didn't care about her until she said, well, no, you can't. We have to stay together. Right. So right. This is the part that drove me nuts because.
01:00:16
Speaker
Because Burnham's like, you can't do that. And then the Breen are like, we'll give you five minutes to figure out your shit. And then they've been away. And then the next scene. And that's all there so that that they that we can have a scene with Burnham being a middle manager and checking in with their bosses to be like, are we sure this is the right thing? And I was so pissed because you're telling me the captain of a Star Trek show, especially Michael Burnham, wouldn't he just be like, yeah, just just say fine. Take her.
01:00:47
Speaker
like just and then have to explain herself to her bosses Vance is mad and like we saw earlier in the episode where she says something that crosses the line with Vance and he's like oh sure you have permission to speak freely and then she kind of like feels chastened it's like very off-burn him in this episode she's not very strong-headed and she's trying to avert a crisis and save HQ why didn't she in the moment just say like you can take her And then you could have Culber object in the moment. He's right there. Captain, you don't know what they'll do to her, and blah, blah, blah. And she's like, stand down, doctor. And that's her being a captain in a Star Trek show. So then when they have that scene, it's like, is that just so that they have the moment where Tarina says, well, it would the line that I send, that was great. You could have had that afterward when she's explaining herself. And their HQ is like, you know that do the ends justify the means? like You might have sentenced someone condemned someone to death.
01:01:39
Speaker
And, you know, Burnham's like, well, it's either that or all of us, you know, something like that. But it just felt like a false moment on top of of what is ultimately a false choice. And to you point out, like it's a twist. I guess it's one of those things where it's like, sure, but it makes sense. So it's not that surprising. And if you had done it earlier, we could have sat with it longer so that we see the repercussion of it, how it's like, well, then she wouldn't have.
01:02:07
Speaker
I'm just trying to think through the thought process. ah Why didn't they bring that up earlier instead of just in that moment? And the only thing I can think is just to have that twist at the end, because if you think about it, it doesn't make sense. Why would she leave him at all?
01:02:22
Speaker
Yeah, so well, because she the plan was she was supposed to get a shuttle and then beam him over to the shuttle and they were supposed to go back on their rampage like they've been doing with shuttles throughout the whole show. But my thing, I like that it was a twist. And I like being surprised in TV. Because let me tell you, my my grandmother was watching this show yesterday. And I walked in and I said word for word everything the characters were about to say, I've never seen the show.
01:02:44
Speaker
But that is how predictable it was. I was like, oh, he's going to say duh, duh, duh, duh. And then he said it. And I was like, and she's going to say duh, duh, duh, duh. And then she said it. And I was like, OK, this is I'm not a writer, so I should not be able to like know the words that are going to come out of your mouth. You should be able to surprise me a little bit. So I love the twist because I was totally surprised. That being said, I agree with you that it wasn't done well. um I like that it existed, though, because it could have just not existed. It could have just ended. And you're like, oh, Locke died. Well, that was sad. Like, and then i it probably would have been a kill. So right. so trying What's even the point? But I like the twist. I like that there was a twist. Now I will agree with you.
Episode Twist and Future Reflections
01:03:17
Speaker
I didn't think what you just said about the middle manager thing, but now that you're saying it, yes, what irritated me was five minutes. Cause why? And then also the fact that scene it's literally just to have that scene they had a chance to have a board meeting when they only have five minutes, yeah like how did they convene and have a table and the guards and you only have five at this point, you've already run out of your five minutes just convening this meeting. oh That's simple, it's because they shot the same, all those conference scenes in the same day and didn't do enough work to be like, well, this is a different context for this scene. They just shot them all the same in the same day. That's why it's that way. Yeah, it was silly. and then And then to be like, and and the other, the thing, the reason I think there was that scene there also,
01:03:57
Speaker
The other reason, I believe, is that it was for book. It was for book and Burnham. It was so that book could be like, no, no, no, she's my only family. You can't get rid of her. And for Burnham to be like, sorry, book, the mission comes first. Because they they reference that multiple times, like later on. So I think that was the point of his scene. That could have happened in the moment and when she makes the decision.
01:04:16
Speaker
But also, to your point of the false decision, how can they make this decision? She has volunteered. She said, I want to go with you to show you the secret weapon. I will go with you. And plus, because I'm married to the scion, according to your rules, blah, blah, blah, you have to take me. Yeah, that's the other way to do it is where she's just like, you can't stop us. And then she leaves. that Yeah, that was my thing is like, she said I'm leaving. So they're like, you can't give her up. They're not giving her anything. yeah She has chosen to leave.
01:04:40
Speaker
So why are we even having a conversation? Like, she has chosen to leave. She should have left immediately when she made the choice. There shouldn't have been the five minutes. He should have been like, this agreement is acceptable, pew, and they all be mobbed. And they're like, no. Like, that would have been a better way to do it. But I do like the twist. I like that they have it. I like that it's there. I want that to stay. But the way that they do the twist, I think, would have been more, again, more in line with the characters had the brain just beamed her. She just, you know, she left voluntarily. And then there was an aftermath.
01:05:08
Speaker
of people. And then they maybe they had the battle room scene where they're like, Oh, no, what's she gonna tell them? Like, what do we know that she doesn't, you know, maybe then they could have talked about like, what can we do now? But yes, while they're talking, the green ship has left. And they're just like, shoot, should we chase them? Should we, you know, what, you know, and then they try to figure out what their next step is.
01:05:25
Speaker
That would have made more sense. All kill really means is watch it once and never again. And I feel like i mean sometimes it feels like it never should have been made, but that you can't. It's hard to say when these are serialized. So I don't know, but this one seems to satisfy the basic metric of do you ever need to watch this one again? I don't think so. And it seems like one of those episodes that you could skip entirely and be caught up with on the recap in the beginning of the next episode.
01:05:53
Speaker
Hello, this is Charisse from the future. I previously gave this episode a trek, and that was a terrible mistake. I have to change my mind and make it a kill for all the reasons I have previously discussed. And even though it did have some surprising moments, which I still really appreciate, and even though it was it had some fun moments that made me go, oh, I wonder what happens next. Overall, it's pretty stupid. And their whole explanation of the Breen is just is subpar. So I am officially changing my vote.
01:06:25
Speaker
This is Brian from the future asking a question. Is it because Brian from the past is so willing to kill these episodes that you're like, Brian, calm down. That was when I was like, this is one that we strongly disagree on. But we agreed on everything in the details of the episode. And you netted out still. All right. Let's go back to the present.
Excitement for Upcoming Episode and Wrap-up
01:06:50
Speaker
So all right. Next week, though, we're going to a library.
01:06:54
Speaker
Whoo hoo. Super excited. It's ah Labyrinth, the eighth episode of Discovery. We're in the homestretch here. And there is an emotional story here that coheres, and I'm looking forward to talking about it and rewatching it. ah So check that out.
01:07:11
Speaker
Uh, check us out on trekmarykillpod.com for all of our standing. Cherise also makes stuff off of this podcast. I do make stuff. You can find me on YouTube by typing in at the sci-fi Savage. You can join me for my weekly live stream every Wednesday at 6 PM Pacific where we talk all things Star Trek. All right. So thanks for listening until next week. TMK out.