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S07E11: Organizational Leadership, with Kathleen Dockry RLAW '82
59 Plays2 days ago
Kathleen Dockry RLAW '82, leadership coach and founder of Significa Group, sits down with Dean Bond to share her own journey from law school to executive leadership coaching. You can read more about Significa Group at significagroup.com.
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The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to the award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and Dean of the Law School, Joanna Bond.
Kathleen Dockry's Career and Leadership Journey
00:00:23
Speaker
I'm joined today by Kathleen Dockry, class of 82 in Newark. As managing director of the Significa Group, Kathleen oversees the design and delivery of blended online learning and group coaching programs for fast rising leaders.
00:00:39
Speaker
She has coached some of the most accomplished leaders in business and professional firms. And as she knows from experience, Kathleen herself was the former CEO of a global company.
00:00:51
Speaker
We're going to talk about her journey through Rutgers Law and get some quick tips on effective leadership. Thank you so much, Cathy, for joining us. Oh, you're quite welcome. Thank you for having me on. This is fun to talk about.
00:01:04
Speaker
It's such a pleasure to have you here and to claim you as one of our alumni. It's it's really um really a point of pride for us. So you, I know, come from a large family. Can you tell us a little bit about your origin story?
00:01:19
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Although I'm going to try to keep it to the headlines because if I go through all the nooks and crannies, it's going to get kind of long. Right. Sure. I grew up in New Jersey, but I grew up in a very, very small town in rural New Jersey, oldest of six kids.
00:01:37
Speaker
My father was the local school principal, so I had to go to to school where my father was also the principal. Not not a fun thing. No, that's a challenge. Right.
00:01:49
Speaker
ah Yeah, and my mom ah actually was a writer, a published a writer, and ah pretty well known at the time she was writing. So it was an interesting kind of family background. But six kids, not a lot of money, tiny town. It was not the sort of place where you really were exposed to a lot of life and what the possibilities could be. um And it was hard to make decisions about where you were going and why you were going there because there weren't a lot of role models for you. Yeah.
00:02:22
Speaker
Sure. And, and I have to ask, did your, your mom write fiction or nonfiction or both? She wrote fiction. Yeah. ok She actually, she wrote short stories primarily. She wrote a little bit of everything. Okay. But she was an known for her short stories and she actually you know was published in you know national outlets, but also asked to do a collection of her work at a time where you couldn't self-publish. In other words, one of the big publishing firms in new York will to collect her work. So I always value that part of my upbringing because um
00:02:57
Speaker
it was It was an Irish family. There was a lot of love for for words and language and the power that words and language have. And if I look back at my life and all the different careers, that's a theme that keeps on popping up all the time. you know That's powerful. Yeah. That's that's beautiful. Yeah.
Influences and Decision to Attend Rutgers Law
00:03:18
Speaker
So that that is a perfect segue in some ways to my next question for you, which is why did you choose Rutgers Law School as part of your career journey? journey So I went off to college. ah I went as far as way as I could. I went to North Carolina. And ah And I just sort of threw myself out in the world because I kind of knew I didn't really have much experience or background. And and so I did what I loved. And I majored in English and I majord had a minor in psychology, which I also love. And then graduation started creeping closer. And I was thinking, I don't know what I'm going to do with this Right. Yeah. And about the only thing I was fit for was maybe being an English teacher at that point. And I just did not want to do it. So my boyfriend at the time had come from New Jersey as well. And he came from a family of lawyers.
00:04:16
Speaker
And he had always intended to become a lawyer. So he took the LSATs. And just on a lark, I took the LSATs. Wow, that's great. Yeah, it was. And I don't recommend it as a really planful career decision. Right. No, no. Obviously, it worked out well for you. It did, because i you know i scored up off the charts. And so it was almost like going to a psychic. you know I was thinking, this test says I should be a lawyer. What the heck? is a lawyer. Right, but it was meant to be. it was meant to be. So ah after college, ah I went back, I went to work in the New York area and ah and needed to both make money, but also figure out what is this law thing. So I spent three years working for one of the large New York law firms to see whether it was something I would enjoy.
00:05:12
Speaker
or or be any good at. And it was that was a great experience, by the way. I bet it was. That's that's very insightful to of you to think about, you know this this might be a good idea to go work at a law firm for years, see if I like this and see if it's something I want to pursue. Exactly. it was yeah I'm so glad that I did it because we do know people who really jump into careers, law being one of them.
00:05:38
Speaker
thinking, you know, that they're going to like it and then finding out it's not what they want. Right. Absolutely. Although I would say Rutgers is, tends not to be as much that sort of place. It seems like at least when I was there, a lot of people had really thought long and hard about why they were going to Rutgers and what they were looking for. So it wasn't just sort of knee jerk reaction that they were. Right.
00:06:04
Speaker
Yeah. I think that's still true today. You know, I talked to a lot of students who who, like you, have gone out and gotten some experience either as a paralegal or working just working in a a law firm in some capacity, or they've known for a long time that this is what they wanted to do. So I think you're right. There's there's an intentionality about our student body that is really interesting.
00:06:27
Speaker
Yeah, and which is wonderful because you need that sort of sense of almost like purpose and determination because law school, let's let's face it, it's it's in its nature to be challenging. That's how you grow is to be challenged. And so you need that inner certifier to keep at it and do it.
00:06:48
Speaker
Yes, 100%. And I tell students that all the time, too. i i I ask them to remember their why, to remember what motivated them to come to law school in the first place, because it's it's the on the tough days when that really matters and can provide that kind of motivation to keep going. So I think that's that's really important. You know, that and ah just to sort of go a little bit off base, just a good rule for life in general Absolutely. Yeah. I find myself talking to clients every now and then who have had lengthy careers and, you know, are at the top of whatever their field are. And it's still important every now and then to say, what is my why? it the same why that I had before or has it changed over the years? Yeah, absolutely.
00:07:36
Speaker
Well, can you tell me what are, what's the most important thing that you think you learned at Rutgers Law School while you were there? Ooh, that's so- You can narrow it down to one thing. Right.
00:07:47
Speaker
There were so many different experiences. ah So I'll probably give you you a couple. Sure. one If you don't mind. No, no, please.
Law Review and Management Skills
00:07:56
Speaker
Okay. I mean, there was a lot that i learned about the law. I thought I knew a lot, and I did actually, more than the average person coming into law school because of those three those three years were very intense. I sat in on a lot of trials. I was at the you know counsel table working side by side with the lawyers, so I knew a lot. But there was so much more to learn, and so i you know and I had a lot of good teachers along the way. um
00:08:25
Speaker
I learned a lot from the my peers as well. That's wonderful. That peer-to-peer learning is so valuable. Absolutely. Yeah. it was It really was so enriching. And people had come from, again, all sorts of backgrounds, all sorts of experiences. That broadened my my view. And I needed my view to be broadened because, again, I had grown up in this very small area. There was a lot I didn't know about yet about life and about what the opportunities were. Right.
00:08:59
Speaker
But ah the other thing is, is you know I ended up on Law Review and and the editor of the Law Review. And while people you know will see that as a great credential within law, it actually was a great experience for me because I had never actually run something before.
00:09:19
Speaker
Right. Yeah. i it Much less have people report to me. I mean, Law Review at that time was staff around 50 people. That's big. that's That's a lot of people to manage, especially as a new manager.
00:09:34
Speaker
Exactly. Boy, I had... I mean, i it wasn't that I was going in thinking I knew how to do it. I actually went into the running thinking I wasn't going to get it. when I got it, I was like, congratulations, now what do I do?
00:09:50
Speaker
But it was one of the most formative experiences of my life, the management side of it, which people can sometimes discount, but it's a very important thing to understand and grow your skills in.
00:10:06
Speaker
No matter what profession you choose, even within law, especially if you're in a firm, but if you're running even an advocacy organization or something like that, knowing how to to manage it well can be the key between being successful at what you want to do or having the whole thing sort of implode.
00:10:26
Speaker
And so that experience to have some actual managerial experience and be tested and challenged by 50 people who were very smart and knew exactly what they wanted. Right, right. Not to mention all the authors that you were dealing with, the law school faculty who were submitting their work for publication. Absolutely. Right. That's a ah whole different constituency. Well, that's fantastic. I love, I love that that was part of your experience and that you learned so much through it.
00:10:58
Speaker
That is, that's really wonderful. And it's not the kind of learning experience that we automatically think of when we think of law school. You know, you might, you might think about the classes you took and that kind of thing, but this is, this is a really important, as you said, formative learning experience that happened. completely outside of the classroom. yeah That's right. And I would say i was a nerd from the get go. So I love the classroom. But one of the great things about Rutgers is that it offered a variety of experience like that, that would probably, i always felt made you more well-rounded a lawyer coming out of Rutgers and graduating from it.
00:11:37
Speaker
Absolutely. So speaking of the classes, what what would you say were your favorite and least favorite classes during
Memorable Torts Class Experience
00:11:45
Speaker
law school? You know, are you going to turn off the microphone? No, but you don't have to name names. I actually will name one name because it's a funny story.
00:11:57
Speaker
So, Hamstam, the class I hated the most was torts, which is a pretty innocent class, really. But right ah but it was taught by a professor called Howard Latton. And Howard ah was an extremely bright person.
00:12:16
Speaker
relatively young professor at that point. And it was one of those classes that was huge. And he ran it sort of in the old school way, which is he was a very challenging guy, you know, right on you and you'd stand up and you'd be oh wow sort of squirming for 10 minutes while he crossed examined you. And so at that point, I was a little bit more sure of myself than some of my colleagues. And I thought,
00:12:45
Speaker
he shouldn't be doing that. So I would speak up and I would interrupt to help save the person who was standing up. Right, right. Which he did not like. And so it's very much an act of mercy, though, I have to say. I know, but it it i I paid us a big price for it because halfway through the semester, he then decided to call on me every single day.
00:13:08
Speaker
You're kidding. No. how It was the Howard Latin and Kathy show. People Everyone is talking about like, he really has it in for you. love oh So here's the one part of the story, though.
00:13:22
Speaker
Yeah. And years later, my younger sister goes to Rutgers Law School and she takes towards with Howard Latton. And when she graduates, she marries him.
00:13:36
Speaker
Wow, that's unbelievable. I love it. This professor and I who had this really sort of adversarial sort of relationship ends up as my brother-in-law and and and night ends up being my beloved brother-in-law. Of course. That's lovely.
00:13:56
Speaker
We buried the hatchet and not in each other at that point. That is fantastic. that is ah That is a wonderful story. Well, I have a slightly different take on on Professor Latin calling on you every class period. I think that is a reflection of of his understanding that you had something meaningful to contribute to the discussion. so So I wouldn't view it as punishment. I would view it as a compliment. I'm sure that's the case. I think he if he were still around, and unfortunately he passed last year, but if he was still around, he he might say that actually. yeah i bet that's true, 100%. And he was, I don't know if if you remember, but he was a renowned environmental law attorney or professor and you know did a lot internationally in environmental law. So I really got loved the chance to get to know him
00:14:50
Speaker
perhaps out outside of law school, but know that side of him as well. That's amazing. I did not have the privilege of of knowing him personally, but but when he did pass away, I heard from a lot of alums ah yeah who who had a special relationship with him and and for whom he was a really important person and mentor. So that's always really wonderful to hear.
00:15:12
Speaker
ah So when you think back on your time at Rutgers, and this is specifically related to the the point about mentorship, are there are there any particular people that that you think helped to shape your professional journey along the way? Yeah.
00:15:28
Speaker
Because my professional journey, it was so varied, you know, like three different careers. I'm not sure I could point to anybody who, you know, did that for the totality of it. um You know, in terms of where I ended up as a lawyer and the type of work that I did, ah ah there was a professor named Robert Carter who was professor.
00:15:53
Speaker
the expert on evidence. I think he wrote the New Jersey sort of guide to the evidence rules and he was really well known in that. And evidence was something that I ended up with this unusual liking for. I like the fact that it was ah something. It was how you make your case. It was really, yes. And so I loved litigation. love the strategy of thinking about what evidence you got in how you, or how you would keep your opponent's evidence out. It's part of the whole give and take of, of litigation. And so I not only took his course, but I did some, um,
00:16:32
Speaker
independent study with him as well for two semesters doing a lot of research and evidence. And it ended up, I won the evidence prize at graduation. and night Oh, you did? That's great. yeah I did. Congratulations. Thank you. But, you know, but it ended up shaping um my career a lot because I became, i think I was a much stronger litigator right out of the box because of all that background. and he was sure he was very kind in mentoring me through that whole process too i just remember how how nice he was and that's wonderful I'm
00:17:09
Speaker
that's great and you've touched on this a little bit ah but but i might ask you to elaborate we're What were the ways in which Rutgers Law helped you prepare for your career? And you mentioned three different phases of your career. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about each phase.
00:17:25
Speaker
Okay. So the the first phase was after graduating, i did a federal court clerkship and then went into litigation.
Transition from Litigation to Corporate Leadership
00:17:34
Speaker
and I worked at Lowenstein Sandler, which is still around.
00:17:38
Speaker
Great, great firm. I had worked in New York, but I wanted to get into the courtroom as quickly as I could. And the New Jersey firms offered more of that than the New York firms. um And i represented mainly corporate clients in complex litigation and loved it.
00:17:57
Speaker
And But over time, I started feeling, um and this is where I guess asking yourself about your why comes in quite a bit. i i sort of looked ahead and I thought, you know, just simply going into court over and over again is fun, but it doesn't feel like it's got enough of a why for me. Sure. And I was interested, particularly in learning from my corporate clients, what it was like inside a corporation. Because often, you as a litigator, you get handed a problem. and And I kept on saying to myself, you know, if only way back when, two years ago, they had made these kind of decisions. Right. We wouldn't be here today. I would be earning some money, but I'd rather not have the problem on my own.
00:18:47
Speaker
And I began to get really curious about leadership and what makes for high-performing organization and what makes for a high-performing leader.
00:19:00
Speaker
And so all that curiosity started becoming more engaging to me than than simply being a litigator. So I thought, I'll try, I'll throw my hat in the ring to go in-house. And that's what I did. And that's sort of the start of my second career. At at first, I was ah general in general counsel positions. But ah after that, I kept on putting my opinion in and where in on the managerial side and things, people liked what i I said. So I got offered jobs outside of, of law. And so I started going, you know, leading organizations, leading divisions, turning around, um,
00:19:45
Speaker
organizations and ultimately ending up in a company where I was the CEO of North America. It was an English, very well-known English energy company. Wow. That's incredible.
00:19:58
Speaker
Yeah. So it was, it was, it was ah an amazing thing to me because i didn't have an MBA at Right. i But you had you had a lot of intelligence and and a great sense of curiosity from what I gather. You know, that that the curiosity is the theme that I keep picking up on that was driving you throughout a lot of your career. You are so right. Yeah. I'm really a big believer in keeping an open mind and being curious about And asking really good questions, because that's what opens the door, you know, both to your own learning, but sometimes when you're in the room with a lot of people who are saying, okay, we're doing this, that, and we're heading in this direction.
00:20:43
Speaker
Because I was fresh and new and I wasn't brought up in a corporation because I didn't have an NBI, I would sometimes say, well, this might be a silly question, but why wouldn't we do A instead of B?
00:20:56
Speaker
Right. And there would be dead silence. And I bet sometimes the answer was, well, because we've always done B, right? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That's great. Well, that's that's the value of having new voices in the room, new and different voices in the room, right? That's right.
00:21:14
Speaker
People often talk about how tough it is to be the the other in the room, you know whether that's because you haven't been brought up in the organization or whether it's mainly males, many these places where and you're the woman or you're a person of color or whatever. there were're all you know There's always ah situations where you might end up, no matter who you are, being the other in the room. And that can be really tough and that can be challenging, but it's also amazing opportunity, right? Right. Yeah. If you can navigate some of that toughness of being in that situation, you actually can add value that wasn't there before. it's Right.
00:22:00
Speaker
Yeah. Absolutely. Well, you mentioned in in previous outlets that that you were the youngest executive and and only female in various management teams. and And we've been talking a little bit about what that was like. What did you learn from from being in those spaces as a young woman?
Women in Leadership: Challenges and Strategies
00:22:18
Speaker
um Well, I certainly with appreciated having been in a litigator in in the courtroom. Right. Because i I think I would have been more intimidated. I mean, the the actual work of being a litigator wasn't relevant. But at that point, I wasn't as easily intimidated as I might have been. So that was good. That's hugely important.
00:22:44
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. But I spent a lot of time first, I often think the best analogy or metaphor for being in a position like that is like and like being working in a foreign country.
00:23:01
Speaker
What you would do is you would listen and learn and figure out the norms and the language and the culture. And then you would build relationships and you would use that before you started to really assert yourself and advocate for your position often. So there's, you know, i practice a certain amount of patience and um and just watched and listened a little bit to the extent I could.
00:23:32
Speaker
And then I felt strong enough to then start really inserting myself in the conversation and and advocating for my position. wow That sounds like a very successful strategy. Yeah. and And you earn more trust that way. I mean, you can do it the hard way without earning the trust, but it's the hard way. you earn the trust, then you can be then you have a much easier path ahead of you.
00:23:55
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. what What kind of systemic challenges do you still see for women in corporate environments today? Good question.
00:24:07
Speaker
um
00:24:09
Speaker
If we're talking systemic... I don't see we see the same sort of challenge that we may have had you know a couple of decades ago, which you still see in isolated incident instances. But generally in very large companies, particularly when you get to the mid-management to the top,
00:24:33
Speaker
There's a, people pretty much assume that the woman who's there has credibility, that she's capable, she's credible. She's generally going to be treated as as a peer. So that sort of systemic sort of doubt about whether you really could do offer value a lot of times has gone. That's great. That's that's great progress. That's great progress.
00:24:59
Speaker
But there are still challenges. One of them is that at the same time, that's been getting better. The nature of ah these jobs in large, again, um um I speak mainly from a large company point of view, ah especially at the top, they've gotten much more complex than they used to be. You know, whereas you might be have a national role, now you're playing a global role and you have to be aware of what's going on in almost every country in the world simultaneously as you do your job. And the pace has increased.
00:25:35
Speaker
And that's true for men as well as women. But the problem with that is that women sometimes play ah pay a higher cost on the outside of the workforce for that. you know They're balancing, not all women, but some women are balancing a lot of family-oriented stuff in as well. or They may not have a spouse who's carrying the workload. So what I find with my clients, who are men and women,
00:26:06
Speaker
ah is that it's hard on both of them, but somewhat harder on the women. And sometimes you'll see women opting out for that reason because it's just too intense.
00:26:19
Speaker
And that that explains, I'm sure, to some extent, the disparities at the top level of law firms and corporations, right? Women have sometimes taken themselves out of the running before those those upper echelons. Yeah.
00:26:36
Speaker
There's also an argument there that I've seen, and it might be true. I just, I don't know if it's correct or not. But in general, I find the women in the the room, they're kind of pragmatic. they're but they're They're going to say, if this is the way it's going to be, I'd much rather start my own company. Right. Yeah. sos So I control, you know, the degree of work that I have and why I'm doing it. So they're more inclined than my male clients to, to ask the why question. Why am I killing myself like this? And sometimes the answer is, I would kill myself like this if it was my own company, but I'm doing it for someone else. Yeah. I'm sure you see that a lot. That that makes intuitive sense to me. That's fascinating though.
00:27:28
Speaker
And, and have you, when you, when you reflect on your own career, are there particular women, either historical or personal who have influenced your own path?
00:27:41
Speaker
of So I, ah Earlier in my career, and please don't laugh, I thought a lot about Queen Elizabeth the first Right. Okay. Tell me more. Yeah. So ah she was, ah you know, this was when I was early in my own leadership roles. She was a leader who had to sort of learn in a very precarious situation. The world was not running with very many of powerful female leaders. And she was not hadn't been expecting to get that role in the first place. So she got to it to some extent through happenstance.
00:28:23
Speaker
And then had to spend a lifetime really consciously learning how to be clever and skillful in exercising power. up Of course, she did have the advantage of order being able to order executions, which modern day leaders don't.
00:28:42
Speaker
It's true. yeah Times have changed. Yes. Right. That would be nice to have sometimes too when you're in the leadership role. But in any event, so i I thought about her a lot and I i ah took some some, you know, inspiration, I think, from her. But, you know, the more I went along my career,
00:29:04
Speaker
ah The more i looked inward rather than outward, for i I learned one of the things I had to learn, I think, in my own career, and I think it's true for a lot of leaders, is I had to learn to really trust myself.
00:29:18
Speaker
I had to you know, that you can spend a lot of time... Leadership is nerve wracking, can be a nerve wracking job. And it's really helpful to look at role models and to have some. But at the end of the day, you're going to have to do the work yourself. You're going to have to walk through the fire yourself, the complexity of whatever it is. And so you have to really start learning to trust your own judgment and your instincts at a certain point in time. And that's what I started to do more increasingly. you have And that means you have to be willing to be wrong sometimes, too. Right. You've got to trust yourself. Yeah.
00:29:58
Speaker
Absolutely. No, that makes sense. And no one is right 100% the time. and No, for and you You previously have have spoken about um how you've spent a long time, really a lifetime, studying what works and what doesn't work in a leadership environment um and when navigating complex environments.
00:30:20
Speaker
So in your experience, if you could sum it up, and I know I'm i'm asking for a lot here, but but if you could sum it up, what have you learned about what works and what doesn't work?
00:30:31
Speaker
ah I think there two highlights and of course a lot of details and I won't go into that because often that's what I'm doing in the role. I'll work with someone for a couple of years to get them ready for the CEO spot or something. So we're we're going through a lot of learning to them.
00:30:50
Speaker
But I think that on what works yeah And amazingly, it's the skills of influence, persuasion, and presence.
00:31:01
Speaker
So you're moving your ideas forward always in a large complex environment. It's almost, you could almost say in a large company, it's at the top, it's a war of ideas. Everyone has an opinion.
00:31:15
Speaker
Sort of like going back to what review, everyone has an opinion. They're very smart. They all have an opinion. The question is, how do you how do you navigate that? How do you get everyone aligned, all on the same page and all in agreement. That's a challenge. And whatever your title is, that's your challenge. How do you get everybody aligned and on the same page? right And the skills of influence and persuasion are really, really helpful to do it. And here's the good news about that, is that anyone can learn them. They are completely learnable. It's not like, ah you know, you have to be naturally good at it. you can And...
00:32:00
Speaker
ah The contrary is true. If you're naturally good at it, you can always get better at it. There's no ceiling. And so the more you get really good at that, the more you create that alignment and that followership that you that you need. So that's what works. Okay. Well, that's encouraging to know that you can really build these skills. You can.
00:32:20
Speaker
Yeah. That's wonderful. Yeah. I've seen people who, you know, really didn't seem at all talented at at it. But if you gave them one or two skills to practice, they got so much better. So that's great.
00:32:34
Speaker
The flip side of that, and I'm not sure you can cure this is, um you know, there are some people who are just very close minded. They're not curious. They know what they know.
00:32:47
Speaker
I sometimes call them the Popeye people. They say, I am what I am. And they are not going to put a lot of effort into putting everybody on the same page. And sometimes they're self-interested well. That sort of person is going to struggle a lot in a complex environment that's changing. And um often they may hang around for a little while, but often you see them leaving an organization because they're just not getting anywhere. Right. Yeah. They're not enjoying success because that is a limiting factor.
00:33:23
Speaker
That's yeah exactly right. And what, what do you think is the one quality, if there is one, that every great leader has?
Traits of Effective Leaders
00:33:33
Speaker
Um,
00:33:35
Speaker
it's That's such a great question. And it's probably close to the opposite of what I said. And it's used a lot by the assessment firms to consider who is a high potential. And that is someone who has an open and curious mind.
00:33:52
Speaker
The phrase that's used for it a lot in the business is learning agility. It's someone who is so eager to learn that they would quit if they weren't learning. wow that That sounds sound like a great quality in a leader. Absolutely. And ah also courage is really helpful as well. And that is something that doesn't, again, you you have to be courageous and take tough stands.
00:34:19
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sure. Every leader has to do that. and And what about a misconception? Is there a misconception about leaders or leadership that that you would love to clear up? Yeah.
00:34:31
Speaker
Another great question. Yeah. but I'd like to really sort of point out that that leadership is an art and science in and of itself. And so often we get put in leadership positions and we just think it naturally happens. But it really is something that you have to consciously develop in yourself or and get help from others to develop in yourself.
00:35:01
Speaker
So often, you know, if I'm at a cocktail party and someone is pointing to someone who's in the news and they say, oh, bad leader, that person messed up.
00:35:12
Speaker
Often what I'm seeing actually is someone who might be a a normal, decent human being, but is in a highly complex situation and has received no training about how to be a good leader. so yeah, it's something that doesn't just magically happen. You have to learn it.
00:35:32
Speaker
That's certainly true in in academic settings where a lot of the leadership comes from the professoriate. And so you might be a faculty member one day and the next day sort of thrown into administration with with no training on on what that looks like or what it means to be a leader of an academic institution. Yeah, you so right.
00:35:51
Speaker
It's true the law firms too. Oh, I'm sure. Right. One day you're a practicing lawyer or partner and then you're managing partner and suddenly it's your management skills that matter, right? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:04
Speaker
ah Well, I know in the past you've said storytelling matters and I could not agree more.
The Power of Storytelling in Leadership
00:36:10
Speaker
It's one of the reasons we do this podcast. And and so I want to ask, how is storytelling important to leadership? How does it help you to be ah an effective leader? Yeah.
00:36:20
Speaker
I think it helps you in in two main areas. ah Well, first, who doesn't just love a good story? Exactly. No, that's true. Yeah. But ah a leader often has to make something that's very complex understandable to everybody in the organization. ah That's hard to do with just words alone. You end up with a two-page speech and people don't really and remember much of it at all. ah Telling a story that that captures what you're trying to say and illustrates it, really a great way to get people and to understand it and connect with it and align. And so the other reason to tell stories is for people to, again, personally connect. When you're a leader, often you're so distant from all the other people in the organization. You try your best, but there's no way that they truly know who you are or that you truly know who they are. But telling a story creates a space where you both sort of are in that story together and you feel that you've connected.
00:37:34
Speaker
That's lovely. I love i love that that mental picture. um what What do you think are the best and worst parts of your job? ah I don't think there's much that's so worth That's fantastic. but What a great place to be. know.
00:37:53
Speaker
I sometimes say i do this job even but if I wasn't paid for it. It is that. So just to explain a little bit, that the type of coaching that I do – ah The best analogy is probably like being a coach in the sports world with someone who's like ah already a high performance athlete and usually wants to get to the Olympics. So it's not what we would call as remedial coaching or something. So the the best thing is that I'm constantly talking to super smart, capable people
00:38:29
Speaker
And we're having very deep conversations. We're not yeah talking superficially. so I'm always learning from someone who's deep in the bowels ah of complex situation. And I feel privileged to understand where they are and to see how they're thinking about it, ah you know, and to also probably help them out through it. But it's a great place to be, especially if you're a learning junkie. Right. You know, I get paid to have conversations where I'm learning all the time. I mean, coolsh that's a pretty good gig, right? Exactly. That's great.
00:39:09
Speaker
That's great.
Advice for Law Students
00:39:10
Speaker
And you know many of our listeners are are prospective law students. So I'm going to i'm goingnna shift the focus for a moment back to to law students. and And I'm sure you know law students feel a lot of pressure sometimes to follow a very linear path to sort of you know get the job in their second summer and then continue down that road um as an associate at a particular law firm.
00:39:36
Speaker
What would you want them to know about careers that don't fit a particular mold or the traditional mold? Yeah. it' it's That's a very important question, I think, because law is very, that the template for where you go is still very embedded.
00:39:56
Speaker
and you know there how There are a lot like more people that like me who have but changed careers than there used to be. But the law side of things, there's a little bit of disapproval when you when you do that. Like, why are you throwing this away? you know i actually have had...
00:40:16
Speaker
ah You know, I had people who were well-meaning people, really cared about my career when I was leaving to go in-house, you know, sit down with me. And they were quite upset because they thought that was not a good decision.
00:40:30
Speaker
That being said, so the the pressure is great, but keep on checking your why. You know, I think that's the antidote to all of that, just being Don't keep all your focus on the external pressure. Look within yourself and say, you know, what am I what am i doing here and why am I doing it?
00:40:50
Speaker
What does it feel like? At the end of the day, do I feel like I'm lucky to have this role engine contributed and Am I having the impact that I want to have?
00:41:02
Speaker
um Am I learning things? All of those really great questions because A great career is a journey. ah Probably someone said this somewhere else, so that I can't give them credit. credit But I always think of it as a journey that you're on to get wiser, to grow your judgment, to make a positive difference in the world. It's not a ladder.
00:41:30
Speaker
ah It's the better analogy is a journey. That's the enriching analogy. Simply climbing a ladder at the end of the day is not going to, if that's your only why, it's not going to fill you up.
00:41:46
Speaker
yeah That is so important. Such an important observation. Thank you for sharing that. And if my last question for you is, if you could go back in time and and speak to yourself on the very first day of law school, what advice would you give your younger self?
00:42:05
Speaker
o um I would probably say, don't be so tough on yourself. Good advice, absolutely. And I probably would not have taken it. so But if I think it is good advice. agree.
00:42:24
Speaker
Yeah. You're going to be putting yourself in uncomfortable positions, but that doesn't mean you should be tough on yourself or berating yourself or comparing yourself to other people. The only people thing you should be thinking about is, again, focus on what's meaningful.
00:42:44
Speaker
you know Make the most of the experience and try to enjoy it along the way as well because there are those moments if you're paying attention for them. Absolutely. Also really great advice. that That is wonderful. Well, Kathleen, thank you so much.
Conclusion and Gratitude
00:43:01
Speaker
I can't thank you enough for sharing all of that wisdom and and insight with our listeners and with me. I learned a lot today too. So I appreciate you taking the time. Yeah. And it's it's very sweet to me to be talking to people still after all these years at Rutgers. It's very close to my heart.
00:43:18
Speaker
That's wonderful. Well, well, we hope to maintain that connection. So thank you again. Okay. Take care. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School.
00:43:30
Speaker
With two locations, just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large nationally known university with a personal small campus experience.
00:43:44
Speaker
Learn more by visiting us at law.rutgers.edu.