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S7E2: (Rebroadcast) Why I Chose Rutgers in Pursuing Immigration Law, with Xiomara Urán RLAW'15
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Immigration Attorney Xiomara Urán RLAW'15 joins Dean Johanna Bond to share her own story of immigrating to the US, her family's journey and what inspired her to become an immigration attorney, and how Rutgers Law has helped shape the work she does.
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The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Rebroadcast Introduction
00:00:03
Speaker
Today's episode is a rebroadcast of a previously recorded episode of the podcast. You're listening to the award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney.
Meet Zia Mara Udan
00:00:15
Speaker
I'm your host and Dean of the Law School, Joanna Bond. And I'm thrilled to have with me today, Zia Mara Udan, who is a staff attorney at the Northwest Immigrant Rights Project and a proud Rutgers Law grad.
00:00:29
Speaker
So we' it's our pleasure to have you here today, Zia.
Zia's Origin Story
00:00:33
Speaker
Can you tell us a little bit about your origin story and what brought you from Columbia to the US? Thank you so much for having me. see looks um My story to Rutgers Law is one that started back in Colombia.
00:00:51
Speaker
My father was a judge for the state council. um Colombia's judicial system, at least at the time, had two superior or highest courts, and those courts were the state council and the Supreme Court.
00:01:08
Speaker
My father worked for the state council. um And unfortunately, 1985, there was an attack um to the Palace of Justice. And as a result, a lot of individuals perished.
00:01:19
Speaker
My father was one of them, and we'll talk
Choosing Rutgers Law School
00:01:21
Speaker
more about it. But overall, because of this attack to democracy altogether, but to my family itself, um and being my mother from Uruguay and not being able to either return to Uruguay either, we were forced to consider how to migrate and where to migrate.
00:01:37
Speaker
So um because of my mother's education, we were lucky enough to be able to live in in different places where there are colleges and universities, such as Durham, North Carolina, where my mom worked Duke University.
00:01:53
Speaker
And um I had been worked or studied my whole life to be a and medical student, a doctor.
00:02:06
Speaker
um But because of how the case of my mother my father developed and how we found out what had really occurred to him, um I felt compelled to study law.
00:02:20
Speaker
And that's what led me eventually to choose Rutgers out of several schools. And and I chose Rutgers because he had a very broad idea of what going to law school meant, meaning that they took care of the student aside from just getting the grades. And and that was very important to me.
00:02:42
Speaker
Great. Well, thank you so much. We'll talk a little bit more about Rutgers in a moment. But first, let me just say how sorry I am about the loss of your father. aye And can you tell us a little bit about what the process has been like in terms of getting justice for your father?
Pursuing Justice
00:03:00
Speaker
Yeah, so my father's case is emblematic in the sense that he suffered the same <unk> unfortunate lock, if you want to put it that way, that many other magisters of the Supreme Court and state counsel suffered that day.
00:03:16
Speaker
um However, because it was this big kind conspiracy of the government for 20 years, we didn't know anything. And... um Once we found out that it was the government, the Colombian government, and now we're finding out that it was also the American government that it was behind this operation, we um sought justice. So the prosecutor's office had never really gone after any of the guilty parties, despite where the people that we thought were involved were involved. Despite the evidence existent, um we started seeking for justice outside of the country and
00:03:53
Speaker
The highest court of the Americas for that is Inter-American Court of Human Rights. First, we had to go through the commission. And once the commission approves a case to be sent to Inter-American Court of Human Rights, they do so.
00:04:07
Speaker
um The case of my father was heard while I was in law school. And that was difficult for me. and And I cannot say how grateful I am for the professors that I had around me because they really supported me in the process.
00:04:22
Speaker
um But luckily in 2014, the Inter-American court ruled in our favor and determined that Colombia was liable for my father's um torture and execution along with this appearance of 11 other individuals.
00:04:37
Speaker
There are many other magisters who have never sought justice, whose families have never sought justice. And that is very unfortunate because then that also weakens the democracy of Colombia altogether.
Legal Action in the US
00:04:50
Speaker
so That's what we did at international level. And last year, in February of last 2022, with the help of the Center for Justice and Accountability, we served an individual who was very high in the whole operation. So um this coronel from the military, he had control for yeah a lot of the things that occurred and and we believe that he may be fully responsible for my father's death.
00:05:29
Speaker
um And he's living in the United States. So that is something that um changed the situation because then he availed himself forly to the American jurisdiction and jurisprudence. And this is something that I don't believe he was expecting, but I am proud to say that i i learned my civil procedure at Rutgers and well, here we are.
00:05:54
Speaker
That's excellent. Well, i I'm so sorry about those circumstances, but also glad that there's been some level of accountability during this long pursuit of justice for your father.
Rutgers' Impact on Zia
00:06:08
Speaker
ah Switching gears a little bit now, Zio, can you tell us a little bit more about why you chose Rutgers specifically? Yeah, so as I was saying before, um when I had chosen my previous type of graduate school, I was very interested, of course, and aside from the scholarships and the recognition of the school itself, but I failed to recognize how important it was to have a good support network and also to have a school that did have a diversity.
00:06:41
Speaker
I did not want to be another token kid, another person that represented their affirmative action situation. And when I went to speak with different professors at Rutgers, they took the time to sit down with me to consider what kind of support network whether will there be available within the school for me, um particularly because I knew I was not going to be the typical student.
00:07:06
Speaker
So um I had several options and and And I was proud to choose Rutgers as my number one choice for for that reason, for diversity and for how inclusive it is. And and I'm talking about from LGBTQ, from disabilities, from other things that really enable individuals like myself to really prosper and and succeed at at law.
Service Dog's Role in the Clinic
00:07:32
Speaker
Well, that's wonderful. We are we are so proud to to have you among our graduates. ah I know you have a service dog to help cope with PTSD from the lifetime of threats and and intimidation that you've unfortunately experienced. ah But I also know that your dog was helpful to clients in the clinic while you're in law school.
00:07:54
Speaker
and And that's a wonderful story. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah, so Nakan came to my life. Nakan was the name of of my dog. She ate me in Spott and Basque.
00:08:05
Speaker
And um she was a German shepherd mixed with Australian cattle dog, and she was the wisest animal I've ever met. um And so when I started going to law school, of course, he she was part of of my support network, my medical tools and devices.
00:08:23
Speaker
And when I started working at the clinic specifically, it it was notorious the difference she made herself just with her presence. So I think that while everybody can recognize the effect that a medical service animal can have an individual who suffers the illness, I don't think many individuals realize the effect she can have on others.
00:08:45
Speaker
And that's where it played a huge role at the clinic because, uh, It really enabled individuals who were very distressed and difference, it changes that they were far from ideal to open up and share their story just because mere presence of a dog made them, enabled them to feel better.
00:09:04
Speaker
um There was this one specific case, which really was my first um substantial exposure to immigration, exposure to immigration, wherein individual who just refused to speak on multiple sessions. But then when I went with the two students who were taking care of that case and and I was with Nakhan, he opened up and he changed the course of what kind of relief is going to be granted by the court.
00:09:34
Speaker
So um that was definitely not the only time where Nakhan made a big difference. But the first time um me, along with another law student, represented an individual um who was seeking asylum. um She also made a difference during that interview. And and and there's yeah multiple anecdotes of how Nakhan just became part of the legal clinic altogether.
00:09:58
Speaker
so that's That's a beautiful story.
Law School Experiences
00:10:00
Speaker
ah So let's let's take a breather for a sec and and just have a few softball round questions. So tell me what was your favorite and least favorite class in law school?
00:10:14
Speaker
um So that the the least favorite one was the yeah legal writing, just because the blue book, I think it still haunts me. I have yet to use it for immigration.
00:10:26
Speaker
ah So I still wonder how I spent so many hours of work trying to memorize the system, but I understand it had to be done. So the blue book experience, I think, is is one that definitely marked my first year and one that I didn't consider to, you know, I love Lee, but it had to be done again. um and And the class that I enjoyed the most, I really have loved contracts with a carrier, um property with carrier.
00:10:53
Speaker
had contracts with someone else, but I also really enjoyed the uniform commercial coat with Herbs of Love. So yeah, areas that may seem very dry, that made them very approachable. And one thing that i really appreciated from Herbs of Love's class was that he really tried to teach you how to proceed in the courtroom, meaning even your your manners, your behavior, how to say good morning. And those things that may seem that are not as important, they're just they they they can make a big difference when you're really in the group room. And and and i I'm forever grateful for for him taking that time aside from teaching that the course.
00:11:35
Speaker
That's fantastic. And you also mentioned earlier ah your experience with civil procedure and how helpful that was down the road. So yes, absolutely. ah Okay. And what about favorite place to eat nearby school? You know, I've been thinking about that a lot. and And, you know, unfortunately, Camden is one of those into places where we's it's hard to eat, right? So when I remember there was this food truck that it was right next to the law school and, and They have this amazing sandwiches.
00:12:07
Speaker
um The person there, I remember he had been in Colombia for multiple years. So he also had spice up some of the things and it was just great. um So i really enjoy that. Yeah.
00:12:18
Speaker
That's fantastic. No, I just got my lunch there today. So yeah he's still there. i And what about places in Camden? Do you have a favorite place in the in the city?
00:12:32
Speaker
I really like the ah public library, the one that is, I think is part of Rutgers itself that has this beautiful sculptures in the front. I just find it very peaceful and and the waterfront itself. It's also beautiful.
00:12:48
Speaker
No, that's lovely. What about your, well, let's say what was the most important thing that you learned at Rutgers Law?
00:13:00
Speaker
Um, I believe that the most important thing that I learned at Rutgers Law was the ability to be critical. um You don't have to agree with everybody who's around you, but you have to treat them with respect and you have to listen.
00:13:21
Speaker
There will be things that you can learn from another person who thinks very different from you and there's some good arguments that they may make. So, That was definitely something that i really enjoyed of my experience and and that I would consider the most important thing is to listen to the person that can think the most different from you and try to learn from that.
00:13:44
Speaker
um For instance, when I was in contracts, I was paired with an individual who, and we're still friends, who is Muslim, another person who is Jewish, and um I was raised Catholic and Latina.
00:13:58
Speaker
And so we couldn't have any more different backgrounds. And that's really what made us excel. It was the idea that we could share such different experiences and enrich one another.
00:14:11
Speaker
That sounds extraordinary. I'm so glad that you mentioned that. and but What about your experience at Rutgers do you think helped to prepare you for your current position as a staff attorney at Northwest Immigrant Rights Project?
From Student to Attorney
00:14:25
Speaker
I mean, without a doubt, I will say that it was my time at the clinic. So i started at the clinic working first as an interpreter and translator, but then was offered the opportunity to become a legal intern for the immigration clinic.
00:14:40
Speaker
And I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to have the clinics at the law school, because no matter how much you learn of the law, if you don't know how to use that law to write a brief and to apply that law for for what whatever it is that you want to do then you're going to come to the real world and be very lost.
00:15:03
Speaker
So to me, it was very formative aside from being exposed to a more affirmative way of of doing immigration because at this time I do more defensive and that still applies many ways.
00:15:16
Speaker
It was also um the way with um that Joanne Gottesman taught me to talk to the government. So the government, and in in our case, this a counterpart at all times.
00:15:29
Speaker
And she always approached them not only with respect, but with kindness. And that taught me to always try that approach first and try to negotiate and try to, um, find a middle point.
00:15:44
Speaker
And, and yeah, so, um, she often kills people with kindness and, and I definitely, um, often think of what would Joanne do and in situations where I'm struggling because i I do believe that she, aside from teaching me a lot of from the practical experience of immigration, she also taught me how to have those difficult conversations at times, how to um interview an individual, how to um show empathy in those moments where without going, you know, to the other side,
00:16:19
Speaker
and um And particularly also how to talk to the court, which I practice all the time. like that I do that a daily basis. That's fantastic. Joanne is wonderful and she's a wonderful faculty colleague and it doesn't surprise me that she is wonderful in the clinic as well.
00:16:36
Speaker
And as you know, Rutgers has over, well, 20 clinics at this point. um And so lots of opportunities for students to get exactly that kind of experience that you're talking about.
00:16:47
Speaker
And it's something that we're very proud of. Can you say a little bit more about what your current role as as a staff attorney entails?
Immigrant Representation Work
00:16:57
Speaker
Yeah, so um this is as close as being in the trenches as one can be with immigration.
00:17:04
Speaker
um my job entails going to the detention center, which is solely for immigration purposes. um At this ICE facilities, i specifically work at the largest one of the Pacific Northwest, which is in Tacoma, Washington.
00:17:23
Speaker
And here, um part of my role is for one, assess all the cases that come in for individuals who don't have counsel. We offer a legal evaluation wherein we explain what possible legal recourse they may have for their removal proceedings, deportation, but also in some instances we can represent. So I also represent individuals on their cases, and but I do a lot of the legal orientation of how to how to go about the system when the person does not have counsel, because unfortunately, given that immigration is not a type of law wherein the government will absorb the cost of that representation,
00:18:05
Speaker
Um, unless organizations like the one I work for, step in, then this is individuals are the ones that are forced are left to fend for themselves in a system that is already intimidating for anyone, even for, for individuals who are attorneys is intimidating, but to ask for individual who doesn't speak the language, um, to represent themselves is, is just a, an impossible order. And, um,
00:18:31
Speaker
we hope to give some tools so that if if that's the case, then they can be less lost within the process. That's wonderful. I'm so glad that you're out there doing that that great and important work.
00:18:42
Speaker
Now, I love this story. I know that in 2023, you came all the way from Washington State to be at Rutgers Law a naturalization ceremony.
00:18:54
Speaker
Can you tell us a little bit more about that and and why it was a full circle moment for you? I think to me, it was a wonderful moment and one of those moments that I will always cherish from Rutgers and I cannot be any more happy that I decided to to go and and that I was invited by Joanne to go.
00:19:16
Speaker
um It was a full circle because individuals who come into the United States, particularly those that have fled from persecution,
00:19:28
Speaker
come with a sense that they don't have any rights and that those rights can be taken away at any given point. um They live in the shadows in so many ways, and it's really for them many times better to live in that situation over um have to endure the persecution in their home countries.
00:19:50
Speaker
The individual that really pushed me to go to this naturalization, Stephanie Ruiz, and I've talked to her about, you know, using her name for this podcast.
00:20:04
Speaker
She um had been my client for that first asylum case. So it represented the beginning of my career as an immigration attorney many ways, even though I had done many petitions, it was the first interview where I had to proceed. And um aside from that, i when I was at Rutgers, I told her,
00:20:27
Speaker
this is not the end, this is just the beginning and I wanna see you become a citizen. So I kept nagging her and when the time came, meaning that once a person has been in the country for a number of years and has been a resident for five years, then they may proceed with the naturalization process and they have to do the interview and whatnot.
00:20:48
Speaker
So um I obviously reached out also to Joanne to see if she could help in the matter and Dean Joanne, sweet angel that she is, he she also agreed. And so it was the full circle of me coming back as an attorney to my law school, but also seeing that this person um who at one point her her life and her rights had been so violated to be able to claim this as her country for for good.
00:21:20
Speaker
And that for me is very, very important because of also the kind of work I do, where I see individuals who have been residents for 20, 25 years, and then they make a mistake and then they can be kicked out.
00:21:33
Speaker
And that to me seems very unfair because normally the individuals that are kicked out um tend to be have lower means. And that's pretty much the reason that has prevented them from going through with the in whether the naturalization process itself that is costly.
00:21:49
Speaker
so and The other thing that to me became evident of ah when I went to the ceremony is why I chose Rutgers. And because this was not the typical ceremony where we were all saying, oh, America, the great, and that's it.
00:22:06
Speaker
We were saying we love the United States, despite the mistakes that it has done with respect to foreign policy so many times, and and even in our in the mainland, so to speak.
00:22:19
Speaker
and And that to me is very powerful as an individual who um respects and love this country, but has also come to understand that the United States played a huge role in what happened to my father.
00:22:31
Speaker
And the more documentation that comes unclassified from the CIA, the more we can attest that there was a role of the Reagan administration in that situation. So to me, it's accepting that while the United States has issues,
00:22:46
Speaker
We all believe in democracy and that's why we're doing the job that we're doing and that's why we're doing the kind of ceremonies that we're doing. um And so it was very powerful and seeing all my professors and um seeing the first federal judge who who is Hispanic was also just that incredible because yeah, once you can see a role model, you can also start dreaming big. And and that's what I feel at Rutgers that was able to see other models that would enable me to feel that I could perform and and and achieve my dreams too.
00:23:20
Speaker
That is such a powerful and compelling story. i i just love it.
Advice for Future Law Students
00:23:25
Speaker
ah One of the things that that I think having you on the podcast does is it it also holds you out as a model to potential students who may be interested in going to law school.
00:23:36
Speaker
ah And so I wondered if you might just offer a few words of advice to students out there who might be considering law school. So law school is definitely difficult, meaning it's something that requires a lot of discipline.
00:23:54
Speaker
And the reason why you go to law school has to be very well defined in your mind before you attend. Meaning if it's only a matter of prestige, if it's only a matter of money, I believe there easier ways to go about that.
00:24:09
Speaker
But because it's ah it's a noble profession that requires consistency, discipline, and It's hard. It's very hard. So my my advice to individuals who may be considering attending law school is, for one, never underestimate themselves.
00:24:28
Speaker
Never consider that there's something too hard for them. um You know, I was actually told that by a counselor in high school when I first arrived to the United States and I didn't speak English well.
00:24:39
Speaker
um They said, honey, grad school is just too much for you. um and And here I am after attending medical school with a scholarship and after attending Rutgers also with a scholarship. So it was definitely not too hard. So my first advice is never think that something's too hard for you.
00:24:58
Speaker
But if you are choosing law, make sure that it is for the right reasons. If it's for money, go for another area, particularly choosing Rutgers law. I believe that is very public law oriented.
00:25:13
Speaker
um And if you do believe that this is the right path, just keep working at it because this is not about being the brightest is being about consistency and about being able to ah grow and and learn.
00:25:27
Speaker
Um, but have a passion, particularly have a passion for whatever it is that you are gonna choose because ah otherwise it will be very repetitive. Um, uh, the motions that I do, they're not as fun if it wasn't because I know that they can free someone. Right. So Whatever it is that you do make sure that it really makes you to wake up in the morning.
00:25:49
Speaker
Wow. Those are wise, wise words. Thank you so much for that. and And thank you again for coming onto the podcast because you are such an inspiration ah to all of us and and particularly to ah students our students who are currently in law school and prospective students who may be thinking about how they want to make a difference in the world. So thank you again for for being with us today.
00:26:13
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large nationally known university with a personal small campus experience.
00:26:32
Speaker
Learn more by visiting us at law.rutgers.edu. Thank you.