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S7E4: Health and Wellness for Law Students — with Nicole L. Perskie RLAW'06
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Nicole L. Perskie '06 joins guest hosts Amy Miller and Sarah Regina, the Associate Deans of Student Affairs at Rutgers Law School in Camden and Newark, to talk about mental health and wellness for lawyers and law students. Nicole is the Interim Director of the New Jersey Lawyers Assistance Program, a program that provides mental health resources to both lawyers and law students. You can find out more at njlap.org.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
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Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Power of Attorney'
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to the award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and Dean of the Law School, Joanna Bond.
00:00:22
Speaker
Today's episode is guest hosted by Amy Miller and Sarah Regina, the Associate Deans for Student Affairs at Rutgers Law School in Camden and Newark, respectively.
00:00:38
Speaker
Welcome. You're listening to the award-winning Rutgers Law School Power of Attorney podcast. I'm Sarah Regina. I am the Associate Dean for Student Affairs at Rutgers Law School in Newark.
Importance of Mental Health in Law
00:00:51
Speaker
And I'm Amy Miller, Associate Dean for Student Affairs in Camden. We're guest hosting for Dean Joanna Bond on an important topic that touches every law student and legal professional, mental health and wellness.
00:01:03
Speaker
Sarah and I work with students here at the law school every day, and we see the pressures they face and the missteps of not seeking help. These issues are not specific to Rutgers Law students.
00:01:15
Speaker
The Law Journal for social Social Justice reports that law students face higher rates of anxiety, depression and stress compared to their peers in other professions.
00:01:26
Speaker
And this reach research has been consistent over the past two decades. While students may enter law school on par mentally with other graduate programs, the demands of a legal education take their toll by the third year. 40% of students report experiencing depression and 96% report significant stress, which is actually 26% higher than even medical students.
00:01:52
Speaker
Unfortunately, there is an evolving culture of wellness in legal education and practice, especially here in New Jersey. And joining us for this important conversation is Nicole Persky.
00:02:05
Speaker
She's a Rutgers Law Camden graduate of the class of 2006 and is now the interim director of the New Jersey Lawyers Assistance Program. Thank you for joining us.
00:02:16
Speaker
Nicole, what was your law school experience like at Rutgers? Good morning. Thank you for having me on Power of Attorney. It's an honor to share this episode with you both today and to have the opportunity to speak on this podcast.
00:02:31
Speaker
um As you mentioned, I graduated in 2006. um And so that's like almost 20 years ago now, which is kind of unbelievable. um And, you know, I wish I went later for two reasons.
00:02:44
Speaker
One, the campus looks great now. It's been remodeled considerably since my time. ah you know But a couple of the other reasons is, you know more importantly, there's obviously more of a focus on wellness now.
00:03:01
Speaker
And also personally, you know I've matured. ah I went to law school ah expecting it to be college round two, and um I was in for a big surprise.
00:03:12
Speaker
ah I wasn't prepared for the level of, you know, academic competition that was available Rutgers. You know, there's a high level of, um you know, student ability.
Nicole Persky on Law School Experience
00:03:23
Speaker
Right.
00:03:24
Speaker
And so I was in for a little bit shock. My first week of class, everybody's giving these really incredible answers. And I'm like, whoa, it was a little intimidating, and um you know, and so it took kind of a minute to to catch up with that and to get, you know kind of get there.
00:03:42
Speaker
And um I also didn't appreciate the opportunities available, you know, personally and professionally for networking. um So I feel that, you know, if I had to been a little more mature, realized the importance of that kind of on a long-term basis um and that had prioritized, you know, my wellness and some of the other things available.
00:04:06
Speaker
um as opposed to trying to complete school as quickly as possible, ah you know things might've been a
NJ Lawyers Assistance Program Overview
00:04:12
Speaker
bit different. So you know my law school experience was a lot different than it might be if I were to go now.
00:04:20
Speaker
Nicole, can you tell us about the New Jersey Lawyers Assistance Program? What is it and and what do you do? Okay, so New Jersey Lawyers Assistance Program has been around for, I think it's 31 years now.
00:04:32
Speaker
And we're free and we're confidential. ah You know, we're free when you contact us. We're paid for by $10 of each attorney's annual registration fee. And so from the second you set foot in a law school campus, we're available. And that's throughout your career, even if you decide like, hey, I'm go to be a judge one day.
00:04:50
Speaker
And we provide services to help legal professionals with both personal and professional well-being. And that's done a variety of different ways. Our staff is comprised of, at this point, seven different people.
00:05:03
Speaker
ah a variety of backgrounds, skill sets, credentials. um We have a psychologist, licensed drug and alcohol counselor. um We have several attorneys on staff, life coach, ah peer support counselor, um you know communications professional, persons with lived experience with a variety of different things.
00:05:24
Speaker
And what we do is we provide you know, as I mentioned, a variety of services. We have a monthly newsletter that comes out, lets people know what's going on. um For example, in the month of October, ah Recovery Summit is one of the events that's taken place.
00:05:42
Speaker
um We have ah an issue, you know, devoted just to law students in the law student corner of that newsletter. We also have um support groups, including the law student support group a women's, what's called an LCL support group.
00:06:00
Speaker
So that's for individuals in recovery. ah We have a men's support group, neurodivergence group, and you know several other types of support groups. We ah provide evaluation for the Committee on Character, and those are done free of charge if someone selects us to be, you know who's going to do that evaluation.
00:06:21
Speaker
We provide short-term assessment and referral should someone need a referral to you know get some type of treatment. um We provide short-term consultation. you know Someone might have an issue they need to work through, whether it be stress, anxiety, you know something maybe a little more substantial.
00:06:42
Speaker
We provide you know ah presentations on a variety of issues. We just went on perfectionism, which I feel like really touches a lot of people today. And I mean, I could go on for quite a while, but we provide a variety of services to help with well-being.
00:06:59
Speaker
Can you talk just a little bit about your work with the law schools in the state? um you you know I know that over the last few years, we in Newark have, I think, been doing a much better job of ah making sure that the um Lawyer's Assistance Program is more visible.
00:07:18
Speaker
um And maybe you could talk a little bit about like our successes in in that in that area, our successes both from the law school's perspective and from the Lawyer's Assistance perspective.
00:07:29
Speaker
Absolutely. So um one of the ways in which we've been you know more ah present and we're really loving coming to Rutgers Newark is we've been doing pop-ups, we call them, and we are coming to Rutgers on a regular basis which is giving us an opportunity to be consistent presence and the students are becoming more familiar with us, more comfortable speaking to us.
00:07:57
Speaker
Often we come with a holistic health coach. Our psychologists on staff will go. and it just gives people an opportunity to feel comfortable ah to come talk, to have a chat. And we do that regularly, including times of maybe higher ah anxiety around test taking, things like that.
00:08:16
Speaker
um During the orientation, we just gave you know a more extended presentation on wellness. We had students ask some really you know deeper questions. We're noticing, I guess, because of the open conversation taking place at Rutgers, that students are feeling comfortable, even in front of their peers, to ask some really more nuanced and personal questions that we used to only get you know maybe whispered kind of in quiet.
Contrasting Law School Experiences
00:08:41
Speaker
um And so we're seeing the kind of fruits of these ongoing efforts start to to really show up. That's great. I've been noticing the same. um Can you tell us, and Nicole, a a little bit about your trajectory and how you decided to focus your career on mental health and wellness?
00:09:03
Speaker
Okay. So um my trajectory was ah interesting. um I wanted to be an attorney since I was four, ah kind of runs in the family.
00:09:14
Speaker
So that was something i always but knew I would do. um And I graduated from law school at 23. So I was very young. um As I mentioned, not quite that mature.
00:09:28
Speaker
clerked, you know, I ended up practicing bankruptcy law for a period of time and um also becoming a solo small firm practitioner.
00:09:40
Speaker
And what occurred with me was that i was someone who did not realize that self-care was a real thing, we'll call it.
00:09:51
Speaker
And i kind of was like, yeah, yeah, okay. You know, um just did not prioritize it at all. be Being an attorney was my entire identity. um You know, I put vacations, you know, off my calendar, events, family, friends, hobbies, you know, ah thinking that I would get to these things.
00:10:13
Speaker
And um yeah I ended up getting into um um some very ah bad situations.
00:10:27
Speaker
um You know, I had been in, how do I put this? um There's a more, there's a longer version of the story where I could get in a bit more detail.
00:10:38
Speaker
But, you know, I had ah at the time untreated substance use disorder. And um that all kind of came to a head and my professional career exploded.
00:10:50
Speaker
um And, you know, through my recovery process, I realized that there's some really, you know, um there's some really valuable work to be done and helping attorneys to find, you know, wellness, well-being, treatment before,
00:11:10
Speaker
that occurs and you know to help reach people earlier. um So I decided that that was what I wanted to focus my career on. Thanks, Nicole. So Sarah, I know you're also a Rutgers Law Newark graduate. um How would you describe your law school experience?
00:11:25
Speaker
So first of all, Nicole, I want to thank you for sharing that. um um you know My experience, frankly, was... um I think probably, Nicole, you kind of talked about your experience um earlier on in our in our conversation in law school.
00:11:43
Speaker
I think mine was probably different um and and and perhaps different from you know the students that we're the the cohort of students that we're discussing today.
00:11:54
Speaker
um whether it's because i sort of had an ability to kind of balance without even really thinking about focusing on it, or um whether my coping skills for stress are just generally perhaps better than most, I'm not sure. But I had um a balanced and very enjoyable um law school experience.
00:12:19
Speaker
um you know and I'm not apologizing for that. right um I think it's what our students should aspire to and what I hope for our students. right um And so it's easy for me to tell when something's wrong because I know what a loss will experience really can look like. um you know I was challenged academically in a way I have never been before.
00:12:46
Speaker
And for me, I really um I thrived on that. Certainly was stressed at times. there Certainly felt like my plate was a little too full at times, but it never it never became unhealthy.
00:13:00
Speaker
um You know, there are things now that I do that I and then and that I encourage my students to do that I never did. Right. I never went to office hours. I never sought out my professors. I never um I probably could have really taken advantage of those relationships a bit more.
00:13:17
Speaker
um But I did well and I was healthy throughout um and I enjoyed it Right. So I, you know, and, and I'm back in law school now, right. For my career. So, um, you know, it, it it makes sense that I'm back in a place where I felt comfortable and happy.
00:13:36
Speaker
And I want that for all of my students. Um, and I think that's important. That's part of the messaging that I give in, in orientation right off the bat. Um, you know, i think so often, sometimes we start with kind of a, a negative and scary, um,
00:13:56
Speaker
message to law students, sort of reminding them of how hard this is going to be. Yeah, I don't, I try not to do that um because what's the point, right?
00:14:07
Speaker
um I try to tell them that, that it's going to be wonderful and it's going to be challenging. um And they'll, they'll sort of experience that as they go. And if it ever becomes like not fun,
00:14:22
Speaker
right, and too hard or um or or or they're they're not themselves, right, then that's when we need to start thinking about asking for help.
00:14:33
Speaker
um But my experience was um was a really positive one.
Challenges: Imposter Syndrome and Stress
00:14:39
Speaker
So, Amy, um what do you think are some um unique mental health challenges that you've seen as students begin law school?
00:14:50
Speaker
Absolutely. I think both of you touched on this a little bit. um You know, law school really does prevent present this perfect storm that can be unlike anything students have experienced before in undergrad. And one of the biggest things that I see is this overwhelming sense of imposter syndrome that really hits first year students.
00:15:10
Speaker
about this time of the year. um you know You walk into these classrooms and you're surrounded by all these really accomplished people, students who were valedictorians of their undergraduate institutions, students who have extensive professional experience um Some who may even seem like they know what they're doing, where you might feel completely lost in the classroom. And so I do hear from students who are suddenly questioning, do I belong here? Is this the right point or place for me?
00:15:38
Speaker
um And so I think as you begin law school, really combating those feelings of imposter syndrome is what we really try to talk to students about from day one during orientation and throughout you know when they seek us out for additional support.
00:15:53
Speaker
um Nicole, what messages do you wish that law students could hear about mental health and success, particularly when they're beginning? um I mean, you know, one just broad message, I guess, first would be that mental health kind of is crucial to success.
00:16:11
Speaker
um it I mean, it's it's essential to success, right? um You know, and then some, I guess, smaller pieces of that. And one of my favorites is always like the appearances are deceiving, right? You're comparing your insides to someone else's outside.
00:16:32
Speaker
And you I've always found that like some of the people I compared myself to later, I would find out and may have been struggling with something and I had no idea. um or um you know, so i just think we don't, we shouldn't or,
00:16:50
Speaker
it's challenging to to do that comparison because but often people feel the way we do or somewhat similarly. And, um you know, kind of along the lines of keeping things in perspective is keeping the worries and fears.
00:17:05
Speaker
And that you mentioned this time of year can be challenging for students, keeping the worries and fears in perspective. And it's kind of something to hopefully carry along your career, right? Because the law can be uncertain.
00:17:19
Speaker
um just like law school can kind of feel uncertain at certain points. And often the worries and fears don't come to fruition. There are things that we just kind of think about and um most of them are not going to happen.
00:17:33
Speaker
And the few times that they do, it's kind of better to think of those as a lesson. And, you know, what can I learn from this? What can I do differently? And that whole obstacles as opportunities mindset is going to help your career more, you know your education more.
00:17:52
Speaker
And so just keeping things in perspective and some of that kind of gets that perfectionism piece, right? That just, you know everybody's gonna have some times where things don't work out.
00:18:05
Speaker
Amy, what do you think are the most common mental health challenges that that that at least maybe you're seeing in your um office? Yeah, so I think stress and anxiety um would be the overarching themes here, much of which is compounded by lack of time, lack of sleep.
00:18:24
Speaker
ah But more specifically, I think what makes law school particularly challenging, and again, thinking about the students who just arrived, is the Socratic method, cold calling. So um I talk to students who might be so worried about understanding the material, but then on top of that are terrified about being called out in front of a hundred of their brand new classmates.
00:18:46
Speaker
um And just that potential of looking foolish, looking you know dumb, um for a lot of students is is quite paralyzing. um I'll talk to students who are concerned about even going to class because that stress really weighs on them.
00:18:59
Speaker
um Other things that I think that they face that are a bit different from undergrad are the way law school classes are assessed. So, um you know, primarily the majority of their grades come from one final assessment at the end.
00:19:13
Speaker
And then this notion of being graded relative to your classmates can kind of add to that level of anxiety.
Strategies for Managing Mental Health
00:19:20
Speaker
um And then lastly, I would just say, you know, again, a little bit of that imposter syndrome. um Most of our law students were the academic star in their lab last class or in their last academic experience.
00:19:31
Speaker
um You know, they've never been average or ever below average. um And so that of risk um ah you know not falling where you want to in the distribution, um that compounds it. And then the last thing I would say is the financial pressure of law school really adds a lot to the the mental health challenges our students are facing.
00:19:52
Speaker
um The concept of significant debt, anxiety about whether or not this will investment will pay off. um These are conversations i would say I have on a weekly basis with our students.
00:20:06
Speaker
um Nicole, what role do you think that the law school culture plays in student stress and burnout? um So I guess I have a couple of different thoughts on on that topic.
00:20:19
Speaker
um First, just to kind of I guess piggyback on what you just said. um I'm thinking back to my own law school experience. And it's interesting with the Socratic method, for the most part, I was totally fine with it.
00:20:32
Speaker
And then there was just this one class, and I would be totally prepared and know all my material. And every single time the professor called on me, would go completely blank and didn't know what to say.
00:20:43
Speaker
And, you know, so I think um sometimes, you know, it's It's the law school culture, right? And it ah it's just kind of like you're being taught to be prepared for court and to be prepared to think on your feet.
00:21:02
Speaker
But it's also there are situations where um you're running into challenges with that, you know, in the school context, right? In the educational context.
00:21:14
Speaker
um And it's something, you know, the ABA looks is looking at it across the board, you know, in law schools across the country and kind of ways that, you know, how do you, right? How do you teach law students to be prepared for those kinds of situations while still, you know, kind of doing things that might not create as much stress and burnout.
00:21:38
Speaker
And so obviously this is really challenging um for everyone. And I think just another like thought before um ah kind of, is that we have so much data now, you know students are being assessed from like when they're really young and there is constant comparison, right?
00:22:02
Speaker
Even like you're being compared to your classmates in class. And so there's competition. And now with social media, like when I was in school, there was, you couldn't really compare yourself as directly and as constantly.
00:22:18
Speaker
Um, so it's, it's creating, you know, within the law school culture, there's like a subculture of like, now there's social media and now you're comparing yourself to, to the people in your cohort. And it's, so, um, I think some of these things are being amplified,
00:22:35
Speaker
ah You know, and I know there's suggestions for like more collaborative efforts to kind of support the students working together. And, you know, that I guess another issue um that kind of plays into that is expectations, right?
00:22:56
Speaker
There's the students expectation. And you had mentioned some of the students, you know, come in and are used to being the star in the class. Um, I think many of us who are in law school or been to law school can relate to that.
00:23:12
Speaker
And so then there's what they, you know, what they perceive the experience was going to be like, then what their expectations, like what they think that the expectations are of their family, their friends, the school has on them and kind of their, you know, carrying that.
00:23:34
Speaker
And then there's the actual expectations of, you know, the school, the employer and the culture. So there's like different layers of expectations that are that are playing into that. And so, you know, I know that the ABA is looking at some suggestions and ways to to deal with that.
00:23:54
Speaker
And I know you guys are there supporting the students and doing what you can with the culture. And so... so You know, I'm excited to kind of see things develop over time and have things kind of move forward.
00:24:11
Speaker
Absolutely. I absolutely agree. I'm excited to see how um we see this new generation, you know, tackling a lot of these issues. um Just to pivot a little bit, I'm wondering if either Nicole or Sarah, could you speak to how you would balance academic rigor with student well-being?
00:24:30
Speaker
Sure, I can speak to that a little bit. So I think the worst thing that we could do um is in a law school is in response, sort of lower our standards for students.
00:24:45
Speaker
um That can't be the answer um in my view, right? So we have to, and and i don't I don't necessarily have the sort of, I'm not saying that I know exactly how to do this, but I think you know, we have to figure out a way to challenge um our students and make sure that they understand that sort of the discomfort that comes with being challenged
00:25:18
Speaker
um can be a good thing. um So, you know, there's all this, there's there's this sort of resilience movement. um I think that's that's a big part of it.
00:25:29
Speaker
That's a hard thing to teach. Um, you know, but it's so certainly something that, that, that we can model, um, and hope that students are watching.
00:25:43
Speaker
Um, I think that, you know, messaging that like a little bit of discomfort, challenge, and even stress can be good and necessary.
00:26:00
Speaker
Um, and I, And I sort of get this feeling sometimes that that's not that's not where our students are starting. um Always. Some are. Some of our students are you know struggling with anxiety and depression and and and sort of managing these stress levels.
00:26:20
Speaker
um So I think that if we keep talking about stress, about mental health issues and making sure we we we are well balanced and then able to cope with the things that are hard for us, then the stigma goes away and then students come and seek help when they need it.
00:26:43
Speaker
right And that's the key, we want for me anyway. wanna challenge students this is This shouldn't be easy, right? But if it's um if it's hard in a way that's making them unhealthy, I want them to be able to come and say, like, hey, I need some help here, right? um And so I think that's how we that's how we balance. We make sure they know what to do when they need help.
00:27:10
Speaker
We make sure they're checking on each other, right? so that So that folks in trouble don't go unnoticed or slipping through the cracks. We give the faculty the tools that they need to identify when students are in trouble too. um And I guess that circles back, it circles nicely into a question for Amy. um You know, how do you support students who are struggling um but really hesitant to ask for help?
00:27:39
Speaker
I think that's a great question and obviously as you know something you know we we face as a challenge in the work we do but I think you already really kind of hit this on the head and one of the most effective approaches I've found is normalizing this experience from the start.
00:27:55
Speaker
So during orientation or early in the semester, having conversations with students um about how common these struggles are. Because I think for so many of them, when they realize anxiety, depression, feelings of being overwhelmed are not, it's not you it's not a personal failure, but it's a predictable response to a genuinely challenging environment. And so think, again, normalizing really opens the door for students to get help.
00:28:24
Speaker
um The other thing is I try to meet students where they are. you know Not everyone who comes to talk to us is ready to go directly into counseling. um And that's OK. Sometimes it's just about checking in with the student.
00:28:37
Speaker
hey, how are you going? You seemed a little stressed the last time I saw you. um Creates these low stake opportunities to engage and just to you know open that um that dialogue with students.
00:28:48
Speaker
um And honestly, normalizing it from my own perspective. have started seeing a therapist when I was in graduate school because of those ah those stresses that I think are common across programs. And so um just be willing to, again, just stigmatize and normalize um seeking help, I think.
00:29:09
Speaker
um It's what I try to do and, you we'll see. I think some students really resonate with that. Sarah, what are some of the signs that a student or a lawyer might need some professional mental health support?
00:29:25
Speaker
Sure. um So I think for students, we see we see um a host of different things. Sometimes it's missing class.
00:29:37
Speaker
That's a big one. um You know, I've seen students who are um just too anxious to get to class, even though they're prepared, um you know, or they're, um or they're too sad, or, you know, they're too depressed and they just stay at home. um And so And so missing classes when missing assignments is another, um you know, ah sort of a drop in um in grades.
00:30:05
Speaker
Let's say a student is an A and B student and then one semester they end up with all C's. Something is going on. Right. um And. And and Amy and I have small student affairs departments. Right. And lots of students. And so we really rely on um on sometimes other students, right? Sometimes faculty members to kind of come to us and say like, hey, can you check on this person?
00:30:36
Speaker
They've missed a bunch of class. Hey, can you know, and so I send ah couple emails like that a week to students, just checking in, you know, your professors are a little worried, they haven't been to class in all a while, everything okay, I'm here to talk if you need me.
00:30:50
Speaker
And you know, sometimes they need a pep talk. Sometimes something's really big in their life is going on. Sometimes, you know, I need to walk them over to the counseling center because they're in crisis. um Sometimes they can stay in school.
00:31:05
Speaker
Sometimes they need to drop one or two classes and sometimes they need to withdraw because they need to take some time for themselves. So it's a challenge, right? I mean, i this is my 10th year in the role, but um I'm a lawyer and I'm not like a mental health clinician.
00:31:22
Speaker
um So sometimes like sort of figuring out right? Where they are on the spectrum um is hard, right? So those referrals are very important because i you know, I have instincts, of course, on which I rely every day. But um but again, i'm ah i'm ah i'm an attorney and not a mental health professional. so um So it's important that we like here, we check in and then we refer, you know, because, um because it's important that that our students are talking to therapists um and folks that really can really can um sort of assess um when when we're picking up general signs.
Wellness Practices and Programs
00:32:05
Speaker
But the eyes and ears are like in the classroom, right? Like from our offices, we don't always know. other thing, is when students get very angry about things that maybe otherwise might not make them angry. And so we're so sometimes I see in my inbox, you know, um I call them nasty grams. um but You know, I've been at this long enough to not take them personally. Right. But like if a student gets so upset about something um that they they send a really unprofessional and angry email,
00:32:43
Speaker
that's an opportunity for me to check on that student, right? Not to retaliate because I think that, you know, that they should be getting in trouble for the email sent. But for me, it's what's going on with that student that, that like, they think that that's a an appropriate right email to send like some, they, they might need someone to check in on them.
00:33:07
Speaker
And that's, that's taken me time to learn, you know? Um, But that's another sign. That's such a great point. So, um Nicole, what are some coping strategies um or or wellness practices ah that you would recommend for um for our law students and for young lawyers?
00:33:32
Speaker
um So one thing I'd recommend and kind of referring to what you were discussing before um is there's a really great book called The Upside of Stress by Kelly McGonigal.
00:33:43
Speaker
That's a really great read. And, you know, there's benefits to good stress. And I think that you kind of touched upon that. um Some of the other, ah you know, healthy coping things that we recommend, help you cop healthy coping strategies,
00:34:01
Speaker
um include, you know, remembering to keep your sense of identity. um So your hobbies, your passions, you know, so if you're somebody who's an avid reader, remember to carve out some time for yourself to read.
00:34:15
Speaker
If you enjoy exercise, that's a great one. Exercise for some time every day. Meditate, you know, um go for a walk.
00:34:26
Speaker
Time in nature is really great. It helps people to kind of you know, to calm themselves very quickly. um Breathing exercises, you know, kind of breathe in some fresh air, breathe out the tension.
00:34:41
Speaker
As you mentioned, talk to a therapist, talk to mental health professional, talk to a friend, talk to someone, um you know, ah go to support group meeting, um take the time to journal,
00:34:59
Speaker
We recommend, you know, also writing a gratitude list if you can, some things you're grateful for. That's an an extremely powerful tool that can help improve mood, a daily gratitude practice.
00:35:12
Speaker
um You know, watch them some movies, some fun movies, listen to some good podcasts like this one. um You know, attend our Well-Being Week in the Law, Recovery Summit, um you know, some type of material that's going to give you some additional tips for things you can do for, um, strategies for coping.
00:35:33
Speaker
And, uh, there's some really great lists on our, um, law student, uh, balance edition. Um, there's some documents put together that kind of go through, you know, just some easier tips like that, you know, getting a good night's rest, some things that you kind of forget sometimes when you're in that state of tension and it's kind of good to see them.
00:35:53
Speaker
Um, so I will, uh, Recommend that here. Thanks, Nicole. I'm so glad that you mentioned you're taking time to carve out time for yourself and um some of the hobbies that I think our students feel like they're not allowed to do, you know, like they're only allowed to do law school and that none of that has value.
00:36:14
Speaker
and And as we know, it really does. So I'm really glad you mentioned that. I'm wondering if you can, Nicole, also what kind of feedback how you have you received from students about what's working in your wellness efforts?
00:36:27
Speaker
We've received feedback from students in various contexts. um So we've received feedback, positive feedback um on our newsletter. They seem to really appreciate that. I think it's an easy, you know, kind of way for them to to keep in touch and to to get some wellness tips.
00:36:47
Speaker
um We've received, you know, positive feedback regarding the pop-ups. I think they appreciate the ability to kind of just do a quick little check-in. um We've received ah feedback. um Interestingly enough, as I mentioned, we do reports for the Committee on Character, and um we've received positive feedback from students that want to volunteer with us afterwards, um so they appreciate that.
00:37:15
Speaker
We have students that continue on and do lawyers' concerns for lawyers' meetings with us for an extended period of time. um which are you know attorney only and law student and judges AA meetings or um other types of 12-step recovery.
00:37:32
Speaker
um So we tend to get really positive feedback from the students. They seem to be open-minded and appreciate opportunities to you know improve their wellness. Amy, can you tell us about Wellness Wednesdays in Camden and other other wellness resources that you um make available to your students?
00:37:53
Speaker
Absolutely. um So we work with the Rutgers Wellness Center here in Camden to curate monthly programming that's relevant to law students. So in September, we did a session on imposter syndrome.
00:38:04
Speaker
um In December, we'll do work in terms of meditation and mindfulness, since that coincides with their exam period. But actually the biggest hit amongst our law students is programming what we call Wolf Wednesday. So it's when we bring service dogs to the law bridge to just allow our students a moment to relax, you know, get that oxytocin hit um from being around to animals. And it really does have, i think, an immediate and direct impact, just making them feel a little happier.
00:38:35
Speaker
So those are some of the things we do, but we also encourage student organizations to partner with us on wellness um programming. So that's a way that we really try to support the work they do um and really bring out their members to those events.
00:38:49
Speaker
um Sarah, can you tell me a little bit about the Wellness Fellows in Newark and other resources that your team provides? Sure, of course. so um So we're piloting a program this year.
00:39:01
Speaker
um We have two wellness fellows who are law students um who are going to spend over the course of this semester, this is the first semester we're doing it, um about 50 hours um and and they're paid a stipend to just help our my team um create and then execute wellness programming.
00:39:26
Speaker
Um, they had last week, they did like, um, an affirmations wall downstairs where, you know, students just like wrote on colorful post-its, positive messages to each other. And the messages are up there now and it looks great. And they had healthy snacks out.
00:39:42
Speaker
Um, we, we, um, and then they're going to be very, very helpful in, um, in putting together um wellness week programming. So the ABA has ah has an annual, um I don't remember the exact title of the day, but it's essentially a wellness day. um Maybe it's a mental health day, I think. um Always on October 10th.
00:40:08
Speaker
So October 6th through 10th is our wellness week in Newark. And the fellows have been um working with my team to put together daily activities, um you know, from as, as small as like a morning walk, students are just going to meet outside and take a walk um to, I think they're doing some painting um at the lunch hour um and lots of different things. So that's, those are our fellows. They've been fabulous.
00:40:35
Speaker
um And, you know, A lot of what I do in Newark to um so sort of build positive and and and and balanced experience in for my students is I feed them and I get them together.
00:40:54
Speaker
um So just building community and letting students take a break um and not worry about um the the paying for the snack or the meal that they're going to get, um I've seen has really made a difference.
00:41:09
Speaker
And so a lot of my budget we spend on just feeding students and bringing them together in the common space in the atrium in the law school. So about every other week, um every other week, every, you know, um maybe every third week, we'll do a dinner.
00:41:25
Speaker
um We'll do a dinner downstairs and we'll bring in donuts every once in a while as well, just as ah as a quick snack. And it's so great to just see students taking a break, getting their heads out of their books um and talking to each other and smiling.
00:41:39
Speaker
So um lots of resources on campus otherwise, right? um We have a great counseling center um that could use more staffing, honestly. um ah this is The staff they have is excellent, but they're stretched really thin.
00:41:57
Speaker
we have We have the large assistance program to which I refer regularly. i mean, it's not on campus, but it's certainly a resource to all of our students We have the alcohol and drug assistance program on campus as well, which is excellent.
00:42:11
Speaker
um We've got the the health center. We also have a really good, um we have a good pantry on campus, which we haven't really talked about sort of food insecurity being a source of of mental health um ah mental health challenges, but our pantry does a really excellent job um and especially in the last couple of years has really grown um in helping combat food insecurity on campus.
00:42:42
Speaker
um you know So that that's, I just rattled off a list of of of a number of resources um to which me and my team refer regularly.
Improving Lawyer Wellness in NJ
00:42:54
Speaker
So um we you know we haven't really talked about this much, um but Nicole, Can you talk about some ways, um some of the initiatives that the state of New Jersey um and and the New Jersey courts are taking up to help lawyers and law students, either are taking up currently or have taken up in the last couple of years?
00:43:15
Speaker
Okay, great. So on thank you for asking about that. And I'll forget the year on the first part, but the New Jersey State Bar Association did a survey a couple of years back.
00:43:31
Speaker
And um what they found was, you know, that what was going on with attorneys across the country, um you know, the high levels of stress, depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, et cetera, was also occurring here in New Jersey.
00:43:50
Speaker
And that was, you know, done. There was a putting lawyers first task force put together and some suggestions were made. And from that, the Supreme Court, ah Justice Stuart Rabner in 2023, put together a committee for wellness in the law.
00:44:07
Speaker
And that committee is for lawyers, law students, judges, and believe court personnel um and the legal professionals that work with them. And don't quote me exactly, but generally it's pretty broad to help support, you know, wellness in the practice of law um focusing you know and obstacles that occur, marginalized or underrepresented communities, um you know, solo and small firms, kind of anywhere where their wellness needs some additional support, ah they kind of want to have an additional focus, but across the board.
00:44:43
Speaker
And um two initiatives that came out of that that I think, you know, I'll mention now are um one, is the bar exam application, so the application to become an attorney, was amended. And that was amended at question 12b6, which is a question that asks about, and the wording may be not exact here, but asks about essentially you know history with relation to a past mental health diagnosis or a substance use disorder.
00:45:18
Speaker
And the question previously asked, you know, about the diagnosis kind of itself. The question now asks if there has been a diagnosis that's been used in mitigation of conduct.
00:45:34
Speaker
So it's more of a conduct related inquiry and it's, you know, asking if it's been used in mitigation of that. And, um you know, they want they want to see that it's been something that's been treated.
00:45:48
Speaker
but that um it's been it it the the diagnosis itself is not at issue. And there's some explanatory text with it. It's a great read. I recommend reading it.
00:46:01
Speaker
um So that was really exciting. And that happened, I think, October of that year. And another exciting development is ah the third party rule. So what that means is if there's someone that, let's say you're concerned about,
00:46:19
Speaker
um a fellow student perhaps, if you're a law student. And, you know, this person is exhibiting signs of, you know, having trouble and, um you know, they won't they won't go for help and you're you're concerned.
00:46:34
Speaker
You can contact New Jersey Lawyers Assistance Program. You know, our phone number is really easy. It's 1-800-24-NJLAP. And let us know what's going on.
00:46:45
Speaker
And we can reach out to that third party. And we don't have to disclose you know who you are when you call to that person, but we can offer them you know support, resources, and try to get them help. And it's confidential. It's not going to go anywhere. We're not going to report that to anyone.
00:47:01
Speaker
um So that was something that was really exciting and gives people an opportunity to get help sooner that may not reach out otherwise. And there were additional missions, but I thought those ones were especially exciting.
00:47:14
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I think... um you know, the the law school wrote a letter um in support of the 12, the change to the um the character and fitness questionnaire.
00:47:29
Speaker
um And that was a really huge victory um and and and really um sort an important move, I think. um You know, I've, over the years, in counseling countless students about um both of both the character and fitness piece of the the bar application and just counseling students generally, so many um have been scared about seeking treatment, right? Or just going to a therapist because they feel like they should or need to or you know don't feel like themselves. they they
00:48:12
Speaker
They were concerned about doing so because they thought they'd have to disclose it on the bar application. And that, in turn, would get in the way of their admission to to the bar.
00:48:25
Speaker
And so even when the question existed in its initial form, i would spend so much time explaining that, like, yeah, well, there are certain things you may have to disclose, right, because of the nature and sort of how invasive the question was.
00:48:43
Speaker
but You have to seek that treatment anyway. Right. It's not going to be an an impediment to your to your admission. But now that the question um has been sort of dialed back so and so carefully. Right. And so appropriately to focus on conduct.
00:49:01
Speaker
um Now, I make it very. very abundantly clear, right, that students should not even think twice ever about seeking treatment um for mental health challenges, because it's not going to matter at all, right?
00:49:17
Speaker
um In fact, the opposite, right? Because if any conduct um sort of comes out of these, um you know, their mental health struggles, then that's that's when it needs to be disclosed.
00:49:29
Speaker
um so So that was a That was a huge victory. um you know i have it on my desk, like tabbed, right? So that I can just pull it and read the language to students, which I do weekly.
00:49:41
Speaker
you know weekly Well, Nicole, um thank you so much for joining us on the Power of Attorney. And it was really fun hosting, I think, Amy too, right?
00:49:54
Speaker
This was our first our first time guest
Conclusion and Gratitude
00:49:56
Speaker
hosting. um And we looked forward we look forward to partnering with you um and New Jersey Lawyers Assistance Program, you know, time and time again in the future. So thank you so much.
00:50:07
Speaker
Thank you so much. Really, thank you. The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large nationally known university with a personal small campus experience.
00:50:28
Speaker
Learn more by visiting us at law.rutgers.edu.