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S07E15: How Law School Led to Winemaking — with Sagie Kleinlerer RLAW '05
61 Plays3 days ago
Rutgers Law School Dean Johanna Bond sits down with Sagie Kleinlerer RLAW '05, who shares his story of making it through law school and personal tragedy to later pivoting from a career in law to life as the founder and owner of Kleinlerer Wines, a Bay-area winery.
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The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to the award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and Dean of the Law School, Joanna Bond.
00:00:22
Speaker
Today's episode is a powerful reminder that a law degree has reached far beyond a courtroom. We're joined by alumni Sagi Kleinler, whose professional journey began here and led him to becoming ah the founder and winemaker of Kleinler Wines.
00:00:41
Speaker
His story raises important questions for our students and alumni alike. How do we listen to our inner voice and how do our values shape our work? I'm delighted to welcome Sagi to the show.
00:00:53
Speaker
Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks so much. You are a first generation American. Your mother emigrated from Israel. Your father is a Holocaust survivor from Poland. So tell us a little bit about your origin story.
00:01:12
Speaker
Sure. Yes, so I am first generation American. I was born and raised in New York. um My father was born in Poland back in 1923. My mother was born, well, my parents were 20 years apart, actually. So it was a May-December relationship. um I grew up with an interesting background in that I had the old world Jewish um upbringing of you know of the the Polish background, um the old world of you know that part of Judaism, but I also had the modern Jewish side of my mother. So my grandparents emigrated to Israel in the 1920s, but my mother had different you know upbringing because she was born and raised in Israel. And growing up in New York, um my parents spoke broken English to each other.
00:02:00
Speaker
My father spoke seven languages, none of them Hebrew. my mother spoke English and Hebrew, ah but they both, mean, it's their second language for both of them. So we grew up in a household that didn't have really the American culture. So we kind of all learned it together.
00:02:15
Speaker
um That's amazing. Yeah. So Thanksgiving, our home, for example, which is a truly American holiday, we had a family meal, but pardon me, battling the a cold. ah It wasn't a formal turkey dinner with the stuffing the sides. It was really a blend of you know Israeli cuisine and Jewish cuisine and just what we enjoyed eating. So we had you know roasted chicken and we had you know Mediterranean side dishes. And it was just an interesting blend of cultures in our home. um But growing up in New York gives you opportunities that you know, you don't often have in other areas. So we grew up going to museums and concerts, both classical and rock.
00:02:54
Speaker
ah We would go out to eat in restaurants. And so there was there was this old world culture where my parents would take me and my sister to restaurants when we were young. And there was wine in the house and we had a family dinner every single night. It wasn't just once a week. But we also had Shabbat dinner on Friday nights where we we were not allowed to go out. We were home on Friday nights, no matter what, when our friends in high school would go out And hang out, we had to be home for that formal family dinner. and We would light Shabbat candles and, you know, we would say the kiddush over the wine and have challah.
00:03:27
Speaker
But with that, we also had ah some European and Middle Eastern traditions. qualities in our home. For example, our parents drank wine regularly and it wasn't something that was foreign to us and they allowed us to taste their wine. And when I say tasting, you know, I always jokingly say when people ask how I got into the wine business, um, I always say, you know, I had my first sip of wine at eight days. Now, if you're Jewish, you get that. Thank you. Um, and if you're not, you can look that up. Uh, and I've been hooked ever since, but yeah,
00:04:00
Speaker
ah But you know there was wine in the house and it wasn't foreign. And so we would taste their wines. We wouldn't drink glasses of wine, but we would taste it. So by the time that I got to college or my sister got to college, we weren't binge drinking because it was part of our culture. It wasn't you know this new ah this new and exciting thing. it was like yeah, it's alcohol. Okay. You grew up with it, right? You grew with it. um So it really is a part of my upbringing, who I am. And that's part of the reason why i ventured into this world today.
00:04:30
Speaker
That's amazing. That's an incredible story. So I have to ask you, how many languages do you speak now? do you speak any Polish? Is that is that in the repertoire? The Polish I do know I can't say on a podcast, but... fair enough fair enough But I do speak three languages. I'm fluent in English and Hebrew. And I actually like to say two and three quarters. And i i get by in French, actually. okay So after the war, my father found his sister.
00:04:56
Speaker
um And they both moved to France because my so my my aunt was dating ended up marrying French Jewish partisan. And so since my the my father's side of the family was...
00:05:08
Speaker
basically uh they're they're all gone they're all exterminated in the holocaust they found each other and they moved to france to be with my uncle's family and so i have family in paris as well so i studied french um in junior high in high school uh just so i can communicate with them and if you want fast forward a little bit i ended up marrying a french woman so hey french comes in handy yes it does Wow, that's great. That's an incredible story, Siggy. Thanks for sharing that. sure ah So you've you've told us a little bit about where your passion from wine kate for wine came from. ah
00:05:44
Speaker
and And you mentioned your father's time in in France in World War II made a lasting impression on your family when you've spoken about this previously. So can you elaborate on that and tell us a little bit more about that?
00:05:58
Speaker
Sure. um So my father was 16 when the war broke out. And from the second week of the war, we're talking September 1939, he and my his family, my family, were sent to the Lodge Ghetto.
00:06:12
Speaker
And he spent you know a couple of years Lodge Ghetto, ended up being transferred out to Buchenwald concentration camp in Germany, where he was forced into labor there. um And interestingly enough, and this is not exactly related, but I always like to throw this out there, you know, he, nothing in life is black and white.
00:06:35
Speaker
And my father ah was, my father was helped by two German soldiers in the forced labor camp that took a liking to my father and they would sneak him a little bit of extra food that they would wrap in newspaper and put it behind a garbage can.
00:06:50
Speaker
And he would share that with his friends um in the camp. And we're talking about a little bit of food. And so after the war,
00:07:01
Speaker
He kept in touch with them for a while and sadly we lost touch or he lost touch with them. But he always taught us that hatred is something that it's it's it's not worth hating. Now, yes, he hated the Nazis and he hated you know that, but there's always good in the world. There's always a little glimmer of light.
00:07:20
Speaker
And so my father immigrated to the US in the 1960s, actually. He went to go work in Texas. There was a program that sent him, he was an east he got his engineering degree in Paris after the war and ended up in Texas in early 1960s. And the Americans liberated him from Buchenwald. So for him, the Americans were this America was this land of, of you know, this golden Demdara Hills. This is an amazing country. And so he came to Texas in the early 60s and he looked around and he saw um segregation going on there and he was thinking, what?
00:07:52
Speaker
This is not the America that I know. And so we actually marched um with MLK and, you know, it is actually, we're recording this early. It is Martin Luther King Jr. weekend this weekend, which is kind of nice. Yeah, very fitting. Nice coincidence. but he would he would march against segregation and towards equality. And that's something that we grew up in that that came out from the horrors of the Holocaust and the hope that came out afterwards. you know, my mother...
00:08:22
Speaker
mother's side of the family was also exterminated in the Holocaust. But my mother and my grandparents and my great aunts survived because they immigrated to Israel in the late 1920s. So they avoided that. um But they came from a different side of it. They built a country. um in the desert and for them it was all about you know fighting for survival and and growth and it was it was a nice mix of modern ah jewish traditions and culture and the historic jewish traditions and culture and because of that and forgive me we can cut this out what was your question again want a little bit of a tangent No, no, no. That is a fascinating ah piece of your history. The question was really just um tell us a little bit about your um father's time in France after World War II that made a lasting impression on your family. And and you've you've definitely touched on a lot of that. So thank you. You're welcome. um Can I just quickly add to that? Yeah, please.
00:09:26
Speaker
So after the war, when my father lived in France, you know, again, he had to start from nothing because they had nothing. And so my father got his degree in engineering at a university in Paris, and he was in the cafes in the 40s and you know, very early sixties in Paris. And so he was in that world of art and culture and music and wine and food. And so my father was actually the cook in our home. My mother didn't cook. My father loved cooking. And that was his, especially because there was a big age difference between, know, my sister and I and my father, you know, my father, I was born 77. My father was 54 years old. It was a very large age gap, but he showed his love
00:10:07
Speaker
through food and family. That's incredible. Those are some really powerful lessons from from both sides of your family. So thank you so much for sharing that. Of course.
00:10:22
Speaker
I want to switch gears a little bit now and ask you about law school. What what attracted you to Rutgers Law School specifically? Um, so I was working in advertising and marketing when I graduated college. that was my degree, my undergraduate degree. i went to Boston university, studied communication art and art history was my minor and worked in advertising for a couple of years. And there was an event that happened in 2001. Not sure if all your podcasts, uh, listeners remember, but it was called nine 11. And after nine 11,
00:10:53
Speaker
businesses were afraid to spend money in marketing and advertising. So they laid off 95% of the agency I was working for and I found myself out of a job. Ouch. And thinking, yeah, I'm thinking, what do I do next? Right. And two things came to mind. I wanted to get an MBA and I wanted to get a JD.
00:11:11
Speaker
And the reason for that is I loved what I was doing in marketing and advertising. But what frustrated me the most was that we would work for hours and hours and days and weeks even on campaigns and then take those campaigns to the legal department and they would look at it and cross things out and say, nope, can't say that, can't do that. And we had to go back to the drawing board and it would be so frustrating. so but then So when the change in life happened, okay, what do want to do next? I want to stay in marketing and advertising.
00:11:37
Speaker
But what if I go to law school? What if i learn what I can do, what I can't say? the the legal The legalities of this, so when I go back into that world, i have that knowledge and and and power, and I can cut time off my hours. Because you know I was young and excited to shave off money for my clients, right? Right. It's a great strategy. So I took the LSATs, and I wanted to stay in the New York area because I'm born and raised in New York.
00:12:02
Speaker
Rutgers gave me an opportunity to... ah not only be in the in the tri-state area, but go to a great school in a city that, um I'm gonna say this in a little in a bit of a strange way, I feared.
00:12:18
Speaker
Newark back in in the early 2000s was not the safest place. And yet there was an opportunity for change and for growth. And I figured if I'm going to go to law school, Let's, you know, I want to help the community alone. Let's go to a place that could use the help. And Rutgers offered a great program um for, you know, IP and corporate law. And it was close enough to home, but still enough that I can, you know, make my own, make a name for myself. Right. And so I chose Rutgers.
00:12:47
Speaker
That's wonderful. Well, we're so glad that you did. Absolutely thrilled that you are one of our ah many alumni. Thank you. So let me ask you more about that experience at Rutgers. what What would you say is the most important thing you learned at Rutgers Law School? This may not be the answer you want to hear, but I think ah the most important thing I learned is i first of all, it's camaraderie.
00:13:13
Speaker
It is self-confidence that I gained from being in in law school. um And I think it's critical thinking. See, for me, law law school, it wasn't the calling. People have a calling to go to law school um since they were since they were kids, and that's great for them. It wasn't for me. For me, I was looking to get certain skills out of it.
00:13:31
Speaker
And... To be fair, I entered law school. um For me, it was the wrong time. My mother passed away a few months before I started law school. I'm sorry. It's challenging. It was.
00:13:44
Speaker
And I went to law school and it was my first time since my mother passed away a few months earlier that suddenly I had time to myself. I had my own apartment. I was starting um a new program. And I thought, okay, I'm going to have this rigid set way of life for the next three years. It'll help me get through this. Well, I wasn't mentally prepared to go through that rigorous process. Law school is not easy.
00:14:07
Speaker
Law school is complicated. It's meant to be complicated. But I wasn't mentally prepared for that. And because of that, um because I was dealing with ah mourning the death of my mother, and I suddenly had time to, there was suddenly a lot of quiet in my world.
00:14:21
Speaker
Not a lot of people around me. I could sit and think. um And if I wasn't thinking about what I needed to think about. And to be fair, that affected my first year law school grades. Now, as we all know, first year law school grades really sets the path for you for the next three years, if not the next, your entire career. And I was actually going to drop out of law school after my first semester. Wow.
00:14:41
Speaker
And the assistant dean at time convinced me to stay. oh good. I'm so glad. Yeah. That's great. You know, it's interesting. I think back to that moment. I think, why did I actually stay? And, you know, I was thinking about it before the podcast and I realized i had no plan B. Right.
00:14:58
Speaker
I mean, what else was it going to do? What else was it going to And I'd love it. It happened year earlier. No one's spending money on marketing and advertising. Anyway, I started this and I'm a perfectionist. When I start something, I need to finish it.
00:15:09
Speaker
Right. And I stayed. Right. And so for me, the three years of law school was overcoming my own adversity. I had to fight back from my first semester grades that were, this day, embarrassing. and we're talking 20 years later, I'm still embarrassed about those first semester grades. But I fought back and i and I actually, I graduated with a pretty good, with a decent GPA. Not one that I wanted, but I went out and I got a job and had to fight against those who...
00:15:35
Speaker
you know in the New York, because I want to go back to New York, those who went to Rutgers and other great schools that had better GPAs than me. And so I had to, for the next, I want to say 10 years of my life, I had to work hard to make a name for myself to actually prove both to myself and to others that three months out of my entire life doesn't reflect who I am.
00:15:56
Speaker
Right. That's a challenge in law school. I tell that to students all the time yeah because, because there, there is a way to come back from a bad semester and students, students do it all the time, right? For a lot of students, it's, it's an adjustment to a very different way of, of learning and thinking, um, and, and honing those, those critical analysis skills. So, so I think for a lot of, a lot of folks, it's, it is such an adjustment and, and,
00:16:23
Speaker
that's, that's not even dealing with the kinds of things that you were dealing with the death of your mother and, and all of the emotional, um, trauma from that. So I think that it's, it's completely understandable and I'm so glad you stuck with it. And too I mean, law school gave me the confidence in my ability to overcome my own adversities and my own obstacles and sharpen the way that I think and analyze and solve problems.
00:16:45
Speaker
And that is the greatest thing to come out of law school. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so now I want to ask you a little bit about your favorite subjects in law school. Were were you focused on the intersection between business and law or were you were you interested in something else entirely?
00:17:03
Speaker
No, it's focused on the intersection of business and law. My favorite, um you know there were a number of of classes that I truly loved. I loved studying IP or intellectual property with Professor Kettle, who i believe is still at the university. He is still here. Yes, absolutely. I was i took a federal income tax class because it fit into my schedule.
00:17:22
Speaker
And thought it was one of the greatest classes in law school. And I was shocked by that. i didn't expect that. And it was fascinating. And by the way, I never touched it again afterwards. Right. You did not become a tax lawyer. Nope.
00:17:37
Speaker
But the best class that I took in law school, by the way, I took entertainment law classes. And that was a fascinating class because it was not just about entertainment law. We had to draft contracts. Now, this is a practical class where we have to draft draft contracts and figure out, okay, what are the issues that are coming up? And and back then it was you know music and and you know CDs and MP3s. Like, okay, what are we thinking of and how do we solve problems now and think about the future?
00:18:00
Speaker
um But I think the best class that I took in law school was a negotiations class. There was a um professor, I think it was a part-time professor named Professor Braff, who was Zach Braff's father, by the way. okay. Okay, that's great.
00:18:13
Speaker
And he taught negotiations, which again, was a practical class because he would break us up into groups and we would take a side of an argument and have to, you know, stand our ground, but also negotiate a solution. And negotiations is the key to just about everything in business these days. You know, I may not be practicing law, but I deal in negotiations on a daily basis. I've got to deal with not just, you know, outside clients and vendors.
00:18:38
Speaker
I've got to negotiate with my team. Absolutely. You know, this is a skill that comes in handy daily. And I think that is one of the greatest classes that i took. That's great. I'm so glad to hear it. It is one of those skills that is so transferable across so many aspects of life, sometimes in our personal lives too. The ability to negotiate well can come in handy. And if you're married, you know that. Yes, exactly. Especially when you're a lawyer, you know that.
00:19:05
Speaker
That is so true. yes so So what happened after law school for you? What what was the the trajectory right after law school? Sure. um So when I graduated law school, I went back to New York, took the bar and started working for a medium-sized law firm in New York. It was actually the New York office of an Israeli law firm.
00:19:27
Speaker
And I chose that or wanted to work there because of my background. You know, I'm proudly Jewish. It's always been a part of know who I was from day one. But working with ah the New York office of an Israeli law firm,
00:19:41
Speaker
allowed me to work in a community that i knew well and that i wanted to help and support and so i worked there um for about five years and uh was not loving the experience and it wasn't and for part of it the time i thought hey it's the it's the firm it's not me it's got to be the firm right and then um i ended up moving to california because like i wanted a break from the firm and i went out to la to visit my college roommate at the time and thought hey this is a nice place to visit um and my i had my eyes set out in california
00:20:19
Speaker
In that path, I decided i found an IP conference um in San Francisco. Okay. And flew out for an IP conference, and which is a fascinating confident conference.
00:20:30
Speaker
But I sat next to a very cute and brilliant woman who now I'm married to. I jokingly say a got I got CLE and a wife out of that. um Well, that's money well spent. I agree. And so i ended up...
00:20:49
Speaker
Pardon me. worries. So i ended up ah setting my sights in San Francisco. And we dated a year and a half long distance, New York, California. Took the bar in California because I did not want to move out to California without a bar. So suddenly now I have three bar exams in my pocket, which how many do use at the moment? yeah Right. Zero. Am right? Zero. Oh, just about.
00:21:11
Speaker
I'm retired in a couple of states the right old age of 40 something. So when I passed the bar in California, and moved out here and worked for a law firm out here. And I realized very quickly, it wasn't the firm in New York, it was me.
00:21:27
Speaker
I found myself unhappy practicing law and not because of the law itself. I think the law is fascinating and interesting subject. When I was in high school, we studied Talmud. Talmud is Jewish law and it's all about ah reading studying the analysis of Jewish law. So you take you have the Jewish law out of the Tanakh or out of the Bible and you literally read the arguments from different sides, from different rabbis through the year. So law is always something that fascinated me.
00:21:54
Speaker
The practice of law is different. um Something else I learned in law school, which I'll go into in a second, is what I didn't like about practicing was dealing with other lawyers.
00:22:05
Speaker
Sorry to all him my lawyers out there. No, it's a good thing to figure out. It is, because one of the things I learned in law school in my first year of law school my first semester, was you don't have to be a jerk to practice law really well. You can be tough. really except Yeah, you can be tough. You can zealously represent your client. Yes. Yes. Don't have to be a jerk about it. Right. And my first semester of law school, when I had to fly back to Israel for the one year anniversary of my mother's passing and I had to miss a week of first semester and a friend of mine, or I thought was a friend of mine, uh, said to me, I'm not giving you my notes. That's your issue. You deal with it.
00:22:42
Speaker
Wow. Unbelievable. Yeah. That is shocking to me. But that's that's something that kept popping up throughout my career in law. Lawyers don't have to be jerks.
00:22:56
Speaker
But they are. And that's not my personality. I like bringing people together. I you know i believe that rising tides lift all all ships. And so there's no reason why you have to have that attitude.
00:23:08
Speaker
Because of that, I was dealing with not just opposing counsel, but attorneys and firms that I was like, I don't want to deal with you. Why should I be spending my days and my weeks and my life dealing with people that I don't care or respect and finding myself mirroring their behavior because that's what that's what's expected of me that's not who i am and at the same time i would spend my weekends up in california because i'm an hour away from napa and sonoma i would go up to wineries in napa and sonoma and go tasting but then i started volunteering in wineries oh that's fantastic
00:23:43
Speaker
I would spend our weeks practicing law and my Saturdays and Sundays working in wineries. And I would come back and my then girlfriend, now wife, said to me, you seem happier when you come back from working in wineries than you do in law.
00:23:56
Speaker
Maybe you should look into this one day? and I said, sure, yeah, one day. That's such a great suggestion. so you you followed that path, obviously. Yeah. I follow that path. I, my father passed away in 2011 and i needed a break at that point from, from life, from law. So i quit the law and my wife was working at the time and she's like, you take your, all the time that you need. um I do voiceovers as well on the side. And so I was supporting myself through voiceover work. Oh, that's great. one
00:24:28
Speaker
Yeah. So one of the things I i i can do as a self-employed person I can take a break when I want to. And one day my wife was traveling and I went up to Napa Valley ah for wine tasting. and walked in to this random winery that I read about, but never tasted their wines, and started tasting their wines. But there were two gentlemen there were working, and they were talking about marketing at small wineries.
00:24:49
Speaker
Now, Dean Bond, you could tell I'm a very shy person. oh yeah. um Wallflower, absolutely. Totally. And so as the shy New Yorker, I put in my two cents because you know I used to work in marketing and advertising. Right. It's right up your alley. Right. And you you're pouring me wine. and the more you drink, the more you talk. So for an hour and a half, i gave we were having a conversation about marketing and wineries. And after an hour or and a half, they introduced themselves as the gm of the wine the GM of the winery and the head of direct sales. And they said, do you want to work here? Wow. said, sure.
00:25:20
Speaker
And it was is two weeks before my wedding. And I called my wife and I said, I think I just got a job at winery. That is such a great story. that's That's also helpful, I think, for our listeners, because I often tell students, you know, you've got to be open to the thing that just comes along, that isn't what you expected. But but if it feels right, you've got to be willing to take a risk and put yourself out there. And that's exactly what you did. And and it clearly worked out well for you. Absolutely.
00:25:48
Speaker
So you know it's funny. um i I tell, I speak to a lot of, I teach wine education as well. So I teach, I work with a lot of folks in different parts of their career, whether they're, they're learning wine education because they want to, because it's a passion or some people are trying to advance their career. And I always tell them, you know, the path is never linear. At least it's not for me.
00:26:08
Speaker
You know, if as lawyers or even as just humans on this earth, there's an entire world around us that influence who we are. you know, I started out marketing and advertising between the year of when I was applying to law school. And when I started law school, I taught first grade, today's studies.
00:26:27
Speaker
and then i love that And then I went to law school and I practiced law for a number of years. And now I'm in but i'm a winemaker and a wine educator. And it seems like a zigzag, but I wouldn't be where I am today if I did not have all of these experiences.
00:26:43
Speaker
You know, I i teach wine education, I taught first grade, that comes into play. I was an attorney for years, that absolutely comes into into play, whether it's, you know, negotiations or contract drafting or thinking about how to solve problems analytically in the winery or beyond the winery. um Marketing and advertising, everything is sales in life. And so you have to know how to market and advertise. So while this may not seem like a linear path, I'm glad I had these various experiences because it influences the way I'm thinking today.
00:27:12
Speaker
And if you stick to one straight path and you don't look at the side, I mean, Dean Bond, you had your various experiences as well. You traveled the world and you know you're helping ah you're helping with with with legal matters around the world with with gender ah with gender issues and sexualities. I was reading your back and it's fascinating. yeah and let say you are yeah And you are where you are because you have that wide view. If you have a narrow path,
00:27:38
Speaker
and you only see what's ahead of you, you're missing out not just the details, but a potential creative way of solving your legal issue or your problems in general. Absolutely. No, i I completely agree with you on that. and And I also think you might have missed your calling, not not only as as winemaker and successful business person, but inspirational speaker. I mean, the way the way you're describing your life and your opportunities, it really does inspire me. um so So let me ask you a little bit more about your transition to winemaking. What what did that transition feel like for you? and And what do you think are some of the most important lessons you learned in the in those early days?
00:28:21
Speaker
Sure. um It's amazing how the mind works. One of the most interesting things in wine is wine pairing, wine pairing with food. When I transitioned into wine, i had to pair my wines with a lot of humble pie.
00:28:37
Speaker
So... I'm starting from the beginning again. i went to work in a in a tasting room. i I'm thinking I'm a lawyer. i have this education. i have these you know advanced degrees.
00:28:48
Speaker
And there I am in a tasting room pouring wines for people who are at this point a lot wealthier than I am, have more stable careers. And I'm standing there pouring wines and standing behind a register every so often. Now, this is a high-end winery. It was a high-end hospitality experience. But I can't tell you the number of times in the three months that I started off in the tasting room, because was only there for three months after they They say they they realized my potential and they moved me to oversee the direct consumer side of sales.
00:29:16
Speaker
In those three months, I can't tell you, it's gonna be more than one hand, how many times that I got the question, are your parents okay with the fact that you left the law and now work in winery? ah but Now, this sarcastic New Yorker in me answered in certain ways. They're probably not exactly the most professional. That's hilarious.
00:29:36
Speaker
But you know what? You got to start somewhere. And sometimes it means it may seem like a step back, but it's not. If I realize or if I decided after a week or a month working in this tasting room thinking, i don't want to do this. This is beneath me.
00:29:50
Speaker
I wouldn't be where I am today. right And that experience only lasted three months before I started overseeing their their direct consumer sales and marketing. And I left that winery after three years overseeing their entire DTC side, which is hospitality and sales and nation and know supporting the nationwide sales team and you know overseeing a team of about eight or nine people.
00:30:12
Speaker
And i wouldn't be i wouldn't have that I wouldn't be able to do that if I didn't have the experience that I had in law school and beyond. That's incredible. and And I really appreciate your willingness to to sort of absorb those early lessons and realize that that it's a pathway to something significant. um So what do you think...
00:30:34
Speaker
In terms of your legal training translated into skills with, with the right winery, yeah you mentioned contracts and your ability to negotiate. Um, those, those make sense to me. Are there, are there other things that you took from law school that you think are, are helpful now in your day-to-day life?
00:30:53
Speaker
You can't take the lawyer out of the lawyer. That's true. I am. It's part of my personality. Um, and it is, it's all of us. We're trained in this way. Um, The wine industry in general, which I love, the wine community is fantastic, but you basically have two groups of people in the wine industry. You have farmers, those who grow the grapes, and you have those who create the wine and sell the wine. And they don't always, they're two different types of people.
00:31:23
Speaker
and different mentalities. You know, farmers don't always work well with business people. And and or when I say work well, I mean communicate well with business people. Sure. And um the two and, you know, sales and marketing, they can so salespeople often can sell anything.
00:31:38
Speaker
Right. But the skills learned, aside from contracts, it's all about listening. Okay. It's listening to not just the needs of the farmers or listening to the needs of the salespeople, but listening to the wine itself, listening to the earth every year is different. We rely on nature.
00:31:56
Speaker
Everything we do is is natural. So we have years that are rainier, years that are drier and more beautiful. And once we harvest the grapes, the wine will do whatever the wine wants to do in barrel. Faults can happen. um Wines can be ruined. Wines can be absolutely gorgeous.
00:32:13
Speaker
And then you have the, so you have to respond to these issues. It's all about clear thinking. It's all about how do you solve problems? That's law school, right? I mean, law school taking law school yes taking that creative problem solving ability and applying it in an, in an area that is totally different, but, but absolutely still relies on that, that basic problem solving ability. Yeah. But it's not just that. It's also, it's, it's problem solving on the sales side. You say, okay, this wine is not doing well. How do we transition? What can we, what can we do to either increase our our client, our visitation or our clientele or our sales? What problem? It's all about problem solving, right? And it's all about looking at the world around you.
00:32:55
Speaker
It's again, it's not that narrow path. It's that, it's that global, uh, that global view. Right. you know that's law school That is law school. Absolutely. No, I love it. So tell me, what's your, what's your favorite and least favorite part of your job?
00:33:08
Speaker
Um, my The best part of my job is that if I'm having a bad day, I can have a glass of wine at any hour and no one's going say a thing to me. Right. You can do it out in the open. I could do the same thing, but I'd have to do it quietly. You have to explain yourself. For I'm professional. Right.
00:33:28
Speaker
the The best part of my job, well, let me talk about the most difficult part of my job. Okay. Great. And that is, i it's, it really is sales.
00:33:42
Speaker
You know, I'll admit sales come naturally to me. I am an honest person. When I go in front of a clientele or of a client, I'll pour wine, I'll tell them what I think. Um, and I'm not going to force anybody to take a wine that a does not make sense for them or that,
00:33:58
Speaker
or that they don't want to take. You know, for me, it's no benefit. If they buy a wine, it's just they're shelf for years or on a wine list that no one buys it. That doesn't benefit me. That means no additional sales for me. Right. But sales is tough. You need to have a very thick skin, or I jokingly say the skin of Petit Ciroc, a very thick skin grape, to deal with sales. i I produce wines. I pour my heart and my soul into every bottle of wine that I produce. Right.
00:34:23
Speaker
And then I take this thing that I think is absolutely beautiful. And I go into, in front of a buyer and basically in my, in my own mind, I'm thinking, please take me, please accept me.
00:34:33
Speaker
And that, and and basically i'm setting this thing, this is me. Do you want me? Do you not want me? It's like being single all over again. That was not Right. That is tough. No, i I hear you. I think that would be bre very challenging. Yeah. I want you to love me. I want you to love my wines. And they may say, net not for me.
00:34:50
Speaker
They're dead to me at that point. No, they, um, they, it they, and that's, I don't take it personally. oh Oh, that's not true. Every so often it stings. It does thing. I move on quickly, but the best part of wine for me, um, it's not, it's not the production.
00:35:08
Speaker
you know wine is an expression of nature and it's shaped by science and history and geography and geology and even religion. You know, in Judaism, we drink wine every Friday night and on every holiday we make a blessing over wine.
00:35:22
Speaker
But all of those, whether it's you know science, history, geography, geology, it leaves its mark on what's in the glass. It's a living record of land and time, and it's guided by generations of accumulated knowledge. you know i As a winemaker, I'm proud to be... you know We've been drinking wines in Judaism since ancient times. i'm I'm part of a chain that goes goes back thousands of years.
00:35:45
Speaker
I'm a certified sommelier under the Court Master Psalms and I'm a holder of a diploma wind in wine and spirits. And so I'm drawn to analyze its complexities and nuances. And that's, you know, part of my critical thinking and that, you know, stops starts in wine. I'm sorry, starts in law school.
00:36:00
Speaker
But to me, above all of that, Wine's highest purpose is realized at the moment that you open the bottle and you share it with others. There is a connection and conversation and laughter and memories and the joy that comes together when you open the bottle of wine. It's not necessarily because of the bottle of wine, but it's there.
00:36:21
Speaker
you know that is let's be honest it That is the most beautiful description of wine I've ever heard. Thank you. Truly. It's amazing. you know, let's be honest, if I was working in the accounts, payable or data entry, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Right. No. There's a culture of wine that involved that that you know invites curiosity and romance and joy. And that's what continues to bring me, to to to draw me to this business. i really I've been in the wine business since 2012 2013. produced my first wine in 2019.
00:36:48
Speaker
i produced my first wine in twenty nineteen I got my grapes in September or August of 2019 and it's fermenting and I bottle it and and i bottle it in March of 2020.
00:37:00
Speaker
Another major event happened in March of 2020. And I'm ready to share my wines with everybody and I can't. So I posted online that, hey, guess what? I made wine. By the way, I produced wine as an experiment, as part of my diploma studies. And so I produced 19 cases and I put it on social media and I said, hey, friends and family, guess what? I made wine.
00:37:22
Speaker
And they acquired all my wines overnight. By the way, I have to say my friends stepped up. They did. and They did. And for me, that was exciting.
00:37:33
Speaker
And I thought that's the best part of making wine. Absolutely. Did they give you feedback? They did. And that's the best part. That ended up not being the best part of making wine. About a month or two or three months later, i started getting texts and emails from people that I could not see, that I could not be with because of the pandemic.
00:37:50
Speaker
And by the way, my first wine was a skin contact Chenin Blanc. Talk about irony of producing a skin contact wine when you can't even touch skins with anybody. Right, right. So they're opening these wines and I'm getting messages of, oh my God, this wine is really good. Do you have any more?
00:38:04
Speaker
And I would get photos of people drinking my wine. I realized a part of me is in this moment of joy and happiness in a time when things were really dark. So it's wine as connector between humans. That's beautiful. That is my favorite part.
00:38:22
Speaker
Yeah, I believe it. That's fantastic. Sagi, when you think back on your time here, what moments or mentors most shaped the way that you approach your professional life today?
00:38:37
Speaker
Sure. there are two professors, when I think back to law school, that always, they're in the forefront for me. One is Professor Kettle, John Kettle. I loved intellectual property. I connected to it because I've always loved music and art. And so IP was area law that interested me. And I took every class I could with John Kettle, and he was a fantastic professor. And he may not remember who I am, but he definitely shaped who I was as an attorney because that was my path as an attorney. And so I spent a good seven, eight years practicing laws as an IP lawyer as well as corporate law. And it is because of Professor Kettle. The other person.
00:39:17
Speaker
Yeah. ah The other person I'd like to mention is Dean Rothman. okay So Andrew Rothman was Dean during my years in in in law school. And I did a clinic with him.
00:39:30
Speaker
And I was there during I was in the clinic during my last semester because i thought, hey, you know, last semester, I'll do a clinic. That's easy. And it was one of the most fascinating and interesting and experiences during law school. And it helped shape who I was. You know, when I was in law school, I interned with a federal judge, not thinking I'd ever go into that side of it. But I wanted that experience. And um I had a ah took advantage of different experiences. And clinic for me was like, yeah you know, easy class.
00:39:56
Speaker
I loved that class because it was truly a practical class. We sat there in our clinic and people would walk through the door seeking help, people from the community. I mentioned earlier about why I went to Rutgers Newark, and that's really the moment when I was able to interact and help those in the community on a daily basis. And Dean Rothman not only was our our ah our leader,
00:40:19
Speaker
but he was a kind smart uh and truly gentle attorney the kind of attorney that i wanted to be throughout my career and he was able to not simply provide us guidance with the law but personal guidance and career guidance and his door was always open to us and um For that reason, i always think of him as one of my mentors in law school. Not to be fair, I don't think any of either of them would remember me. Maybe they do. Hopefully they do. I bet they do. But they both helped shape who I was as an attorney and who I am today.
00:40:53
Speaker
That's wonderful. They're both still here, Oh, fantastic. I'm sure both would be so happy to know the impact that they had on you when you were a student. So I'll be sure to let them know. Please do. Professors, they see a lot of students every year and stay teaching and they just You know, thousands of students walk through the doors, but they don't always realize the impact that they make on students. And, you know, sometimes they do need to hear that.
00:41:22
Speaker
Absolutely. wonderful to hear that. you so So let me ask you what do you, what do you hope people think or feel while they're sipping your wine?
00:41:34
Speaker
What do you aspire to?
00:41:38
Speaker
That's an interesting question. um
00:41:42
Speaker
I don't want them thinking about me. I don't necessarily want them thinking about the wine. I want them to be in the moment. Okay. ah That, It's everything. The moment you start thinking about one thing specifically, your take you're you're kind of removed from that moment. Yes, there's a beauty of when you're with friends and I've had this recently where I've been with friends and we're laughing and you know someone pours a wine and I taste this and I say, wee we wait, wait, wait, wait.
00:42:07
Speaker
What is this? This is really good. Sure. Do I want that? Yes. But it changed that vibe right at that moment. Right. Sure. While I'd love the wines to be in the spotlight and for people to enjoy and think about what they're tasting and drinking, they want to analyze it, go ahead. But really it's all about, I want the moment to be joyous and happy. And it's all about togetherness.
00:42:29
Speaker
And to me, in a way, why is my redemption story from practicing law? I love that. Yeah. It wasn't, nice you know, where I was tearing people apart or I was fighting with others all day and all week. And that's not me. Right. Right.
00:42:42
Speaker
It's all togetherness. This is much more a reflection of who you are as a person. I can tell. Absolutely. So- If you could go back and and speak to yourself, your your younger self, on the first day of law school, what advice would you give to yourself in that moment?
00:43:05
Speaker
Waitier. Hold on. oh Yeah, just, you know, buy your time. um But looking back at you know, at that time, think it was 2002, patient.
00:43:18
Speaker
be patient Be patient, be yourself, i and yeah, you can do this. You know law school, you're going to, i don't know if you're going to like me saying this, law school is not hard.
00:43:33
Speaker
Law school is a skill that that you need to learn, and skills are hard when you don't know what you're doing. and And in the first day of school, no one knows what they're doing. Absolutely true. it Check your ego at the door and realize when you walk in that door, you know nothing and you're in a group of people together and you're going to rise together and you're going to learn this all together, help each other.
00:43:55
Speaker
You're going to become a better lawyer if you are open-minded, if you help each other out and if you can walk out, not, listen, you don't, you don't, sorry, you don't learn anything in law school.
00:44:09
Speaker
In the sense that you don't learn anything about practicing law in law school. You learn the law. Right. And you learn about how to think and critical thinking and you learn about different areas of law and you kind of figure out what you want to do based on the classes that you're taking.
00:44:21
Speaker
But when you walk in the door of a law firm on day one, you realize you know nothing. Or rather, you don't know nothing. You don't know how to practice. Right. And that's a different skill. Right.
00:44:31
Speaker
It is a different skill. Yeah. Absolutely. And patience is a virtue and you really have to be patient throughout your, and at least the first, ah the first couple of years of the first year of law school and the first few years of practice.
00:44:43
Speaker
Be patient, give yourself time and know you can do this. You can do this. If you're in law school, you could do it. You have to have the mindset of of the focus and the attention and the desire to want to succeed.
00:44:57
Speaker
But you can do this. That's fantastic. Like I said, great inspiration. No, that's wonderful. and And we've talked about the many ways in which your career has not followed the traditional path. um and And so I want to invite you to to speak to law students or prospective law students who who may already know that their their career is not going to follow that linear traditional path. what What would you say to those students? What would you tell them about the the non-traditional path?
00:45:32
Speaker
It's not easy, but it's a lot more fun. um There's always a saying that, sure, you can do anything with a law degree. Sure. I actually believe that you can, but sometimes convincing others that, and I'm talking about whether it's ah another a career or a job interview to convince others that you're the right candidate, even though, it's always the, even though you have a law degree or you practice law, it's not always easy, hu but it's doable.
00:46:02
Speaker
And it's all about selling yourself as I'm a unique candidate or I have a unique background that you're looking at hundreds of resumes or hundreds of other candidates in front of you. They all have slightly different backgrounds. I'm different and different because I have skills that allow me to help you as a business or you as a, as a, as a client or you as anything, you know, I come in, um but when I started in wine, people look at me like, sure. A lawyer who's just having fun in wine. No, dabbling, right. Dabbling. Yeah. You know another rich lawyer. I was never a rich. I was never rich, but Hey, um,
00:46:38
Speaker
you know, I married a French woman and she was supposed to have a castle and a moat and and chateau and gri that didn't happen. Oh yeah, absolutely. I keep reminding her of that too. right um But ah you know it's it's all about bringing in your skills. I'm not bringing my federal income tax class. I'm not bringing in my my property law. What I'm bringing in is my ability to analyze ah certain issues.
00:47:01
Speaker
um I can negotiate contracts. I negotiate anything with you. I can bring you an experience that you don't have already on your team. You don't have um in in in your in your world and you don't have to pay $650 or $1,000 an hour for it, but hey, i don't practice lot for them. um But really it's all about, I'm bringing that experience.
00:47:23
Speaker
Absolutely. And to go back to what we were saying earlier, you're bringing also that that problem solving ability, right? That cuts across a lot of different areas. yeah Well, that that's fantastic. what Is there anything else you'd like to add?
00:47:40
Speaker
oh You know, I went to law school believing that I would um finish law school and go work in house counsel and at an ad agency. And I would live, you know, I'd have a penthouse apartment in New York and a beautiful view of the city. And I find myself living in Northern California making wine.
00:48:05
Speaker
um Law school was definitely a part of my journey. It wasn't an easy part of my journey. um But, and thinking back at times, I'm like, do I regret going? And the truth is no. You know, law school gave me the confidence to, i as I said, to overcome my own personal adversities, to realize i can get past any difficulty in life. You know, losing a parent is the toughest thing. um one of the toughest things that I ever experienced. Right.
00:48:34
Speaker
But I was able to adjust and adapt ah my focus, my myself, and realize I can do anything.
00:48:46
Speaker
you know, i am able to make a real difference in the lives of others, whether it was while i was practicing law, I able to help creatives because i was working in intellectual property. help creatives realize their visions or advocate in and out of court for those that couldn't advocate for themselves. um I also realized can transition into a different career and use those skills, use my power for good, now yeah i use my skills in a in a world that to be fair is lacking it.
00:49:15
Speaker
ah The wine world does not have, to not many people with my background that actually manage or work in wineries. And so while the practice of law was not ultimately my calling, um the skills that I learned and I gained in law school and beyond allowed me not just to enter the wine world, but to thrive in it.
00:49:35
Speaker
And no, I don't regret going to law school. Law school was not for me or being a lawyer is not for me, but I have no regrets at all because I wouldn't be where I am today without any of this. And that's an important thing to think about for most people. They don't realize that like- Absolutely. yeah I say there are no mistakes in your career in life.
00:49:51
Speaker
You can quit a job after a month or after a year, but that shapes who you are no matter what. And you learn from that. and Yes, you do. Each time you pivot and do something else, it's ah it's a new experience and you learn from the prior experience. No, I i believe that.
00:50:07
Speaker
Well, and it's it's so wonderful to to talk to you and to see the journey that you've been on and to and to know that Rutgers Law School played a small part in that. ah i'm I'm so grateful to call you among our alumni. ah So thank you so much for taking the time, Saggy. I really appreciate it. And I've learned so much about the wine business today. So I appreciate that too. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you. Take care.
00:50:34
Speaker
Take care. The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large nationally known university with a personal small campus experience.
00:50:52
Speaker
Learn more by visiting us at law.rutgers.edu.