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S6E5: Financial Literacy and the Presidents' Money — with Megan Gorman RLAW'02
105 Plays11 days ago
Author and founder of Chequers Financial Management Megan Gorman '02 joins Dean Bond to talk about her law school career, financial literacy, and her new book, All the Presidents Money: How the Men Who Governed America Governed Their Money.
You can purchase a copy of the book below:
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Introduction of Megan Gorman and Her Firm
00:00:10
Speaker
You're listening to the Anthem Award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and dean of the law school, Joanna Bond.
00:00:26
Speaker
I'm joined this morning by Megan Gorman. Megan is the founding partner of Checkers Financial Management, a San Francisco based firm specializing in tax and financial planning for high net worth individuals. USA Today recognizes Checkers Financial Management as one of the top 500 registered investment advisor firms in the nation. This female owned business serves a diverse client base, including entrepreneurs, corporate executives, and families with inherited wealth.
00:00:55
Speaker
trained as an attorney at Rutgers Law School, Megan thrives on the challenges of navigating complex financial landscapes. Megan is also the author of a wonderful book called All the President's Money, How the Men Who Governed America Governed Their Money.
'All the President's Money' and Megan's Background
00:01:13
Speaker
It's a fascinating look at at financial management among the ah presidents of the of the United States.
00:01:21
Speaker
So we'll get to that in just a minute. But but Megan, I want to start with your origin story. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Sure. Sure. So first of all, thank you for having me on. um You know, it's sort of I'm a typical Jersey story, right? I grew up in South Jersey in Cape May, um exit zero on the Parkway.
00:01:41
Speaker
And I went to Bryn Mawr College for undergrad. I was a history major. And after college, I took a year off and taught English in China. And I wanted to go to law school. And I applied all over. And one of the schools that I applied to but hadn't really thought seriously about was Rutgers.
00:02:00
Speaker
And I was in China, and this is in the late 90s. So this is not the day and age of the technology we have today. But you know I'd gotten accepted in a number of law schools. But Rutgers, they pursued me. And anyone who goes to Rutgers knows Dean Camille Andrews. I think Dean Andrews called me in China, which I still don't know how she pulled that off.
Pursuit of Tax Law and Career Beginnings
00:02:20
Speaker
That's great. He wooed me to Rutgers. And I was really fortunate. I had a great experience at Rutgers. And at the time, and I don't know if this is the the case today, I had to take tax to graduate. And, you know, you get all these requirements and you're always like, oh, God, what do I got to take? So I go and I take tax. And it was with John Davies, who I think has retired. And it was like, boom, something clicked.
00:02:44
Speaker
I loved the puzzles of tax. All right. I still remember the Dubenstein case, which is the big case that you learn in tax law. And it led me to start taking all of the tax classes I could possibly take. So how when, yeah, which, I mean, who would have thought like, if you had told me that's fantastic. No. Right.
00:03:05
Speaker
You know, what ends up happening, and like a lot of law students can appreciate this, is i grudge i'm good I'm class of 2002, and I am looking for a job in 2001 during a recession, which is never a good time to be looking for a job. And in the middle of this recession, I was interviewing with a bunch of firms, one of being a firm called Arthur Anderson. And in the middle of my interview process, arthur which I wanted to work at Arthur Anderson, they went bankrupt and imploded.
00:03:34
Speaker
So it was a really dramatic entry into the workforce, but I got recruited by a division of Goldman Sachs called ACO. And I worked there for 12 years. I worked with corporate CEOs and other C-suite executives and everything financial.
00:03:51
Speaker
from tax planning and preparation, investments, estate planning, cash flow, I mean, executive compensation, you name it. I i was doing it. And I then briefly went to Bank of New York Mellon. And in the meantime, by the way, they moved me to California.
00:04:07
Speaker
And 10 years ago um in March, I started my own firm in San Francisco. And so I continue to work with clients holistically. I don't practice law. I'm one of those non-practicing attorneys. But everything I do relies on my legal background, the issue spotting, the ability to know what needs to get done, how do you protect people, and obviously how to grow wealth.
00:04:31
Speaker
And so that's a little bit of my story and how Rutgers plays into it. So you know you never know what you have to take in law school and how it will impact your career.
Academic Influences and Financial Literacy
00:04:40
Speaker
Right, absolutely. No, that's fantastic. I love that you took that first tax class and realized that that that was something energizing for you. That's that's wonderful. And let me return to law school for a moment. When you think back to your Rutgers Law School days, what is one of the most important things you learned in law school?
00:05:01
Speaker
Oh, gosh, you know, I think law school gave me confidence in my intellectual ability. And so I would say, you know, and I give a lot of credit to that. I have the chance to work closely. He just recently retired, but I worked closely with distinguished Professor Jay Feynman.
00:05:18
Speaker
And Jay, as anyone knows, is he's brilliant, right? And he is intellectually, he challenges you. And so the fact that I had someone like that challenging me over the course of my law school career really made an impact.
00:05:34
Speaker
um on me and how I you know looked at the world, looked at the law, looked at how you could use your degree. And it's really nice because it's come full circle because I helped Jay with one of his books, um not not the insurance one. I think it was called Law 101. But coming full circle, when my book was coming out, I sent Jay a copy. So I feel like, okay, thank you, Professor Feynman, for all the help you gave me over the years.
00:06:01
Speaker
Right. Oh, that's wonderful. And and I think I know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask the question anyway. What was your your most favorite class in law school? That's the one I think I know the answer to. And what was your least favorite class in law school?
00:06:15
Speaker
So I had a really bad time in CivPro, you know, that darn international shoe. i don't international and And you know, it was, it was a learning experience for me because I'll just give you a quick story about it. You know, CivPro is difficult in the best of times. And, you know, we took our exams and I did not get a good grade in that class. I would have, I think I would have had all A's or, you know, I was doing really well in the other classes. And then I went and sat down with the professor and I,
00:06:43
Speaker
found out that there was an issue where they didn't they missed a couple of my answers. So I probably should have had a higher grade. And this is in retrospect, I wish I had advocated for myself more. right I wish I hadn't been afraid to say, hey, if you miss graded this, then you should really relook at my grade. right um So you know that was my hardest class. I think my favorite class, you know I actually um loved a state and gift tax.
00:07:09
Speaker
So I don't know if that was what you were going to think, but like I did. I knew it was a tax class. And I'm blanking on the professor's name. She was phenomenal. She was from the Caribbean. I mean, she was a whiz in gift tax. And she made it so, so much fun to talk about gifting. And as a, you know, you know, had the world comes full circle, because I learned about things like the Gallo amendment in a state gift tax. um which happened in the seventies and i actually ended up marrying someone who worked with the gallows so every year kiddo i've actually met the gallows and i'm like i've read the case that's great that's really gratifying
00:07:46
Speaker
ah And so tell me, how did Rutgers Law School help to prepare you for for your career? And i you've you've had such a fascinating career that's taken a few twists and turns. so So what do you think it was about your law school experience that really helped prepare you for that career?
00:08:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, look, I think that yeah law school taught me how to think a certain way and how to not be afraid to use that way of thinking to problem solve. But one of the other things, and it was funny when I was writing my book and in the book, I taught what we've talked about in a moment, but I talked about different ways of building wealth. And I did a lot of research on education.
00:08:30
Speaker
and on what's called the net worth premium. So, so back in the day when I was in school, you went to college and law school for a better salary, right? That was always the mentality. And in the day and age of student loans, we're really now supposed to look at it as the net worth premium, which is you go to college, you go to law school, how do you build your net worth by not taking on as much in debt?
00:08:51
Speaker
And I bring this up because when I was trying to figure out where to go and you know, I had Camille Andrews calling me in China and I was looking at a variety of law schools. One of the things that really struck me with Rutgers was it was a top tier education at a very reasonable price. And in fact, today I would tell you it was a screaming deal because when I went to Rutgers, it was 10 grand a year.
00:09:16
Speaker
And so I bring this up because I know law students, you know, when you're out there and you're trying to figure out you're making the right decisions, right? Do you take the loan to do the Barbary class? Do you take student loans to help with your law degree? You really need to be thinking about, okay, what is the career path you're going to go on post law school? And will you be able to afford to manage the debt?
00:09:38
Speaker
Um, and I was very fortunate near know the Rutgers debt wasn't incredibly, you know, it wasn't that that it was, look, it's debt, but it was manageable. Um, and so I'm very appreciative that Rutgers was priced a certain way so that when I got out, I could make other decisions about life that could help me on my financial path.
00:09:58
Speaker
that That's so incredible. And kudos to you that you were that financially savvy at at that
Career Evolution and Book Inspiration
00:10:04
Speaker
young age. i I wish I could say the same. I don't know if I was that savvy, but you you you figure out, I knew one thing, don't laugh, but in law school, all my so classmates wanted to do like public interest law. And I was always very clear, like I'm here for the money. So that might be why I ended up in TAC, right? every and Public interest law, and that's a wonderful area of the law, but I'm oh i'm a tourist. I've always been very focused on the financial. So I think that just naturally played to me. That's great. That's great. Well, so tell me, what what happened after law school?
00:10:40
Speaker
So you know after law school, i wasn't it was a really hard shift because you spend three years in law school talking about practicing law. You take the bar to practice law. And then I got out and took a job that I didn't practice law. And that's a real head switch.
00:10:55
Speaker
But when I was looking at jobs and and career paths, one of the reasons I was so drawn to the PWCs, Arthur Anderson's Acres of the World was I wanted to master money and I wanted to be in charge of my own destiny.
00:11:11
Speaker
And I didn't know a lot about investing. I didn't know a lot about tax planning. you know I you know had studied it from an academic standpoint, but studying it and actually doing it is a very different thing. And so the thing that clicked for me early on and I learned in my career is my special skill set is I'm a good kidney.
00:11:31
Speaker
Now, what I mean by that is I can talk to the tax and the investment quants and, you know, speak that language. And then I can sit in front of the client and I can make these concepts, you know, that is really like speaking a different language be much more palatable and easier to understand so that people are focusing on making decisions versus trying to be like, wait, why do I care about alpha in a portfolio? What is standard div deviation?
00:11:59
Speaker
So right I learned early on being a good kidney was something that was really, really important. And being with the client, engaging with the client, advocating for the client is what I love best in what I do. And it's right it's fun.
00:12:15
Speaker
That's such a great analogy. I love that. But I think those same qualities make you a really good author. And your ability to sort of tell a story that is really grounded in financial principles in a way that people can understand is phenomenal. I'm a lover of history, right? You know, and the law is so much history, right? I mean, I've even named my firm after a building in England, Checkers, which passed over 800 years of estate planning, right, of wealth transfer. So if you think about it, like the things you do in law school, you're dealing in such deep rooted traditions, both in the United States and in the UK. I feel like history is so important to understand.
00:12:58
Speaker
Absolutely. Can you tell us a little bit about your current role and what it entails as a founder and managing partner at Checkers Financial Management? Yeah, so you know, I am in this sort of interesting intersection of finance. So I work with high net worth and ultra high net worth individuals.
00:13:14
Speaker
And I say I'm at this intersection because um I work with clients, you know, usually my clients are, have taxable estates. So, you know, really anything north of 30 to 40 million is usually and that from there. And I manage them and all of their finances. I run like a multifamily office. So I'm doing their tax planning and preparation. I'm running their investments. I'm managing cashflow.
00:13:40
Speaker
I come up with the estate strategy. I do not draft, but I work with outside attorneys um and work a lot with moving assets outside the estate, depending on the tax law. And then my other specialization is in things like stock options, restricted stock deferred comp.
00:13:57
Speaker
So all of this ties together and so when you when I work with these families, I'm like a one-stop shop So I deal with a lot of our clients of the firm I also have partners that have clients and then I do run the firm um You know, there's 18 of us today. We're in the middle of hiring and And so we've been growing steadily over 10 years. So it's sort of a balance of both of those jobs. And then just to make it even more fun, you know, probably, I don't know, six, seven years ago, I got into writing and I started writing for Forbes. And ultimately that culminated in me deciding to write a book.
00:14:32
Speaker
That's wonderful. That's fantastic. Well, I do want to get into the book in just a moment, but but let me ask you while we're on the subject of of your day-to-day life, what's your favorite part of your current role?
00:14:45
Speaker
I mean, the thing I love the most is just working with the client, right? And I do a lot of my meetings in person with the client. So, you know, I've worked with people now over 20 years. So it's, you know, I know them, I know their children, I know their parents, I know their siblings, I know the whole sort of ecosystem around them.
00:15:03
Speaker
And so the client meetings are interesting. And I often tell my team because my team will send me in all prepared with all these analysis. My best work is thinking on my feet with the client, which is, you know, we're talking about something, we're kicking the can around and then boom, we just we find an idea that just sort of propels everybody forward.
00:15:22
Speaker
um So that's that's the part that I like the most. And I also like building my team. You know, I have really fortunate, I have very, very smart people who work with me, very, very ambitious people. And it's fun to work with them and watch them grow. Absolutely. Yeah. Sure. Well, Megan, you mentioned your book earlier and i I want to get to the book. It's fascinating to me. So can you tell me a little bit about about how you got the idea and what motivated you to write the book?
00:15:49
Speaker
Yeah, so first of all, I mean, I've always loved studying the presidents. You know, I'm from a small town. And if you look at a lot of our presidents, a lot of them grew up in small towns. So I think I always related to that aspect of these people who were young and small towns who go out in the world and make their way.
00:16:06
Speaker
But you know in doing what I do, I work with very wealthy people. And you know when you listen to celebrities and you see people the divorcing in the celebrity world, you you start to, as a numbers person, you start to think about, well, how did they make that decision? How did they do that? And so I had wanted to do something with writing with the presidents. And I went in 2017 to Springfield, Illinois to visit the Lincoln Library. And when you go to Springfield,
00:16:34
Speaker
You first go to New Salem. And New Salem's a town like 10, 15 miles away, but it's where Lincoln was in his early 20s, where he had a log cabin, he had a store, um he was the postmaster. And you go to New Salem and you look around and you're like, oh wow, okay, this is a log cabin. like This is rustic living from the 1830s.
00:16:54
Speaker
Right. And then you go to Springfield and they take you to his house, which is on the corner of 8th and Jackson Street. And it's the best house in town. And then you realize he left New Salem in 1837. He got to Springfield and and then by 1844, he owned the best house in town. And I thought, how did he do that? Because there's a story there. There's a story there. Right. And I noticed that in history books, right? You'd hear about like a president, this president went to school, they bought a car, you know, and you wonder, okay, these financial issues, we realize when we live them are incredibly stressful buying a house, deciding where to go to school.
00:17:32
Speaker
And so I worked, it took four and a half years to write the book because I think that if you're going to write history and really have something to say, you want to make it interesting,
Presidential Financial Decisions and Client Insights
00:17:43
Speaker
right? You know, you want it to be a mix of highbrow, right? The research, the quality of the stories, but it's a little bit of pop culture, right? You want it to be fun and interesting and have people walk away with a couple of nuggets that they can tell at cocktail parties. So it took me a long time to figure out how to sculpt the book.
00:18:02
Speaker
But basically what I did is each of the chapters is a trait I see in my clients, right? The ability to take risk, their education, right? Or lack of a formal education, the ability to budget, who you marry, how much does luck play into it? And each chapter I talk about some of the more academic principles of this, but tell you stories of presidents and not in a chronological order.
00:18:29
Speaker
Because one of the things that I found in studying this was that regardless of the time period, if we were sitting in the 1750s with George Washington, the 1850s, Abraham Lincoln, you know, the 1950s with Dwight Eisenhower, even today, all the same financial issues are there. Right. And all of us are going through the same financial anxiety and stress and decision making. It's just the time period we're living in.
00:18:59
Speaker
And so I wanted to take the reader on a journey where I wasn't like, Hey, this is George Washington. He's the first, but more, Hey, let's look at all of them and let's see who succeeded. And so at times more importantly, let's see who failed because we also have a misconception about people that when they're successful in one area of their life, that everything is puppies and kittens and rain, you know, rainbows and unicorns. And as Thomas Jefferson would tell you, that's not always the case. and Not always true. Right. Right.
00:19:28
Speaker
Well, that that is fantastic. And so I i want to also ask, have you received any feedback about the book from from any of the living presidents or or ah anyone mentioned in the book? No, no, you know, it's funny. So the book also, I do mention client stories. They're not, you know, they're not true stories of clients. They're versions of client situations I've dealt with.
00:19:50
Speaker
What has been really, and I haven't talked to any of the presidents, and I didn't want to, because you remember, your own, they'll have a spin on their own story. But what I thought was really striking is I got a lot of outreach from my clients who were CEOs, CFOs, really, really successful, high powered people. And the notes all had a very similar tone to them, which was, I always thought I was successful and had wealth because I worked hard and was lucky.
00:20:20
Speaker
I didn't think about all of the other little decisions I made ah ah along the way. right And I thought that was really interesting, right? That the two qualities people pick up the most is luck and working hard. And hard work, right? Right, right. And and there's truth to that, right? I mean, both of those things um are true. But you know I'll give you an example. One of the most important decisions you make besides what you do is who you marry or who you partner with.
00:20:49
Speaker
Right. And so, you know, you look at certain presidents out there and their spouses are instrumental to their success. I mean, but talking about a modern president, right let's take Barack Obama, you know, he's ah a dreamer, a visionary. But if you look at Michelle Obama, you know, and just as educated as he is but in money, she's very grounded.
00:21:11
Speaker
You know, she talks about it in her book, like Brock, you know, thinks he could just go design a money tree. Like he just dreams these things. And I love this idea of the two of them, right? Her very grounded, her keeping them on the steady path and him pushing them ahead with this vision. And so that's why who you marry is so important. And by the way, a lot of our presidents married up.
00:21:34
Speaker
Washington, Lincoln, Eisenhower. you know So as marrying a woman for her money is also a way to build wealth amongst the presidents. So ladies, take note. Right. And you also wrote that that the best thing someone can do financially is to to get married and stay married.
Marriage, Divorce, and Financial Implications
00:21:51
Speaker
Why is that?
00:21:53
Speaker
because divorce is incredibly expensive. It's expensive. It is, it is. And you know, we live in a system today where divorce, you know, you're not always, it's it's not an easy system to get through and it's, you know, it's it's it's just money and emotion are hard together.
00:22:08
Speaker
Right. So, who you know, who you marry and trying to stay married is really, really important if you are going to try to build wealth. And I can't tell you how many times over the course of my career, I will get a client who is like, look, I need help because I just got divorced.
00:22:26
Speaker
and I lost half of my assets and now I need to catch up. And so that's a hard thing because you know we live in a day and age where jobs are such these big jobs, you know you could get laid off at any time. you know People think being a CEO is very sexy, it is, but remember, they pay you to go away when they don't want you there. um you know And so you've you're trying to take advantage of a finite period of time where the income is incredibly high.
00:22:54
Speaker
No, that makes sense. That completely makes sense. and And I know that you did a ton of research for this book. What surprised you the most? Was there anything shocking that you found in the in the research for the book?
00:23:09
Speaker
You know, I get asked this a lot and I think what i I found surprising or it was really lovely was I found that through the research, through primary source documents, like letters and telegrams, was that these, they were just very real people.
00:23:27
Speaker
and very normal, very much like us, and their personalities come through. So for instance, when I was working with the FDR library, you know, you go to these archives, and you have to tell them what boxes you want. And you know, I'm looking for very obscure things, right? I'm not there looking for Social Security or World War Two. You know, I went into the FDR library, and I'm like, I'm here for the lobsters. And if you read the book, you'll know what I'm talking about.
00:23:50
Speaker
So what was funny is I got to go through his tax returns, which he did by hand for a long time. So you're looking at the pencil calculations by FDR. And I found in their letter in 1926 from the Treasury to FDR saying, you know, sir, you forgot to file your tax return for this year.
00:24:09
Speaker
And you get back a breezy reply from FDR, which is very FDR-esque, very charismatic, like, oh, I was traveling from Warm Springs to New York, and somehow I lost the files. You know, my brother died. I'll get it to you soon. And you read it, and you're like, I can totally see him with the, you know, the cigarette holder and the Pinznez just sort of being charming, you know, in ah in a probably a ah car going up the coast. But It was very just, you just got a sense of him and a sense of just who the person was. And then also, wait a minute, is this how the IRS worked in the 20s? Right. They're never that nice now. You just get the letter. Right. So so it's sort of funny how it just, you I feel like I found them as people in the archives.
00:24:56
Speaker
that's That's so interesting that you get these little glimpses into their lives and their personalities through the research that you did. that's That must have been so gratifying. Yeah, and I got to see, like I have Herbert Hoover's Power of Attorney, right? you know And you see these documents that you know we all have today, and you realize that they had them just as well. And you know some of them were better at navigating than others. Right.
Economic Challenges and Financial Education
00:25:21
Speaker
And you wrote at the end of the book ah that the American dream may not be possible for a lot of Americans like it was for most of the presidents due to growing inflation, for example, and other factors. Can you elaborate a little bit on why financial literacy is so important?
00:25:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, so, you know, when you think about the stories of the presidents in the past, a lot of their same issues are the same that same that we had today. But they also had a better ability to fail and pivot. So what do I mean by that? You know, when you look at Abraham Lincoln, when he got to New Salem, he opened a store.
00:26:02
Speaker
He had no business opening a store, but he took on a loan to do it. He took on a business partner who was an alcoholic and then they proceeded to run up debt buying inventory on cheap money. They bought another store on credit and they eventually go out of business and then his business partner conveniently dies and Lincoln assumes his business partner's debt. And the debt all in was $1,100, which right doesn't sound like much today, but it was about $40,000 in our money. And he was a funny guy, Lincoln, he would call it his national debt.
00:26:31
Speaker
And he does pay off his national debt, but if you think about that, he had a chance to fail and pivot. And today, would that be the case? Would someone be able to make these financial mistakes and pivot as fast? And and think about it, $40,000 today, that's like a year of college, right? So someone taking on that debt today is limiting their opportunity set.
00:26:56
Speaker
So what I found is that the American dream is still alive and it's still obtainable. It's just harder than ever. And I want people to understand, you know, we're in this situation where, you know, the economy has been strong, but we are in an affordability crisis and everything is so much more expensive than it's ever been. And we have institutions that are not being as nimble as they once were. So what do I mean by that? Like, okay, why do you need 20% to buy a house? 20% down.
00:27:27
Speaker
It's a rule from the 50s. It's a rule from the 50s. It's a banking rule. It's an irrelevant rule today, and yet we still comply with it. And so you have millions of Americans who can't get into the housing market because they don't have the down payment. They don't have that 20% down, right? Right. And the House, if you think about American history and the House over the course of American history, from Jefferson to Lincoln to FDR and all the legislation signed in, having a House was the one way you built wealth.
00:27:55
Speaker
So again, it's hard to be as nimble as they were in the path big past because we have really just we just don't have the ability to fail and so and continue to to pivot and move on. So that's the frustrating thing. um right Do I think things are changeable? Yes, I think having financial literacy you know to the second part of your question is incredibly important. you know Back in the day i when I went to high school, I learned how to balance a checkbook and I played the stock market game.
00:28:22
Speaker
And the stock market game is a lot of fun, but it teaches you all the wrong things about money, because money is a long, slow wait. And it's not, yeah you know, you got to make money by the end of the semester. And so, you know, financial literacy, and I'm on the board of the National Endowment for Financial Education, we only have financial literacy programs in 23 states. And that's been a big progress because if we had, I think that's double what we were in 2020 when the pandemic started.
00:28:47
Speaker
So we need to have better financial literacy in schools to get everybody ready, but to realize that financial literacy doesn't end just because you finished school, but that it continues to go. So like in law school, and I don't know if this is what they have now, you know, you never really taught how to run a business.
00:29:05
Speaker
Right? Right. And how many people you go to law school with, you know, a lot of people do take the big jobs or the big firms or mid-sized firms. But I also have a lot of classmates that have their own shop. And did anyone teach us how to do P and L's or how to manage the money or, you know, or how to send a wire, right? An attorney send wires a lot because of your attorney trust accounts. So right. You know you realize that there's this gap in in our collective education and it's okay to feel frustrated. like I think we all feel that everybody else got the education and we didn't get get get it taught and it it feels frustrating. So this is you know something that I think as we progress forward, we should continue to talk about as a country.
00:29:49
Speaker
I realize that it's improving, but but I'm surprised that the rate of the percentage of states who who actually teach this in the curriculum, and maybe it's the K-12 curriculum, but that's still surprisingly low because it's so important. It is. And what the challenge is, right, is everybody comes with a money story of their own, right? Money is emotion. it's It's your own life experiences. So to have the right financial education, it's not the state agreeing to put it in.
00:30:18
Speaker
It's the estate agree state agreeing to put it in and funding it because you have to educate the teachers because, you know, we could be sitting in, I don't know, you know, Demerist or Alpine, New Jersey, where there is great wealth. And so everybody teaching comes with a more moneyed experience. But then in a in a lower income area, you don't want, you know, you the teachers there might not have the experience to teach and they need to learn in order to teach to the students.
00:30:47
Speaker
So having funding for teachers is key for the success for financial literacy. Yeah, that makes complete sense to me. and And what do you think is the biggest mistake the average person makes when it comes to their finances? Well, you know, first of all, I think who what you do and who you marry is the first threshold of success. But here's the thing, um you know, when I talk about it in the book, when you look at the presidents who were not successful with their money, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, you know, the Troika who are brilliant people, they, you know, morally were a little struggling because of the slavery issue. But why did they not succeed financially? Because they had a lot of illiquid assets. And instead of engaging, they stuck their head in the sand. They didn't do the tough work they had to do in deciding, hey, maybe I should sell some land to have some liquidity. And you see that as a contrast because their peer, George Washington, who incidentally didn't go to college and the three of them did,
00:31:44
Speaker
Washington, if you ever get a chance to look at Washington's correspondence, one, he's an amazing budgeter. Two, his letters are filled with financial transactions. He's selling a little strip of land to get liquidity. He, you know, it's got some stock. He needs to sell it. He was very charitable, very charitable also in promoting education.
00:32:03
Speaker
So there's a choice to be proactively engaged with your money. And so I would tell anyone listening, especially if you're a young law school student or about to graduate, you know, get proactive with this stuff right out of the gate. So it becomes a habit that you're dealing with your financial problems right out of the gate. Right.
00:32:21
Speaker
I think that the point about making it a habit is also really important because then then it just becomes something that you do on a daily or weekly basis and you make your monthly budget or whatever whatever it is. exactly And it's a habit. Yeah. And I think especially for anyone who is in law school coming out,
00:32:39
Speaker
you know, we're coming out with student loans. Like people are always shocked when I tell them, I still have student loans. Now I'm the generation that came out where we refinance them at like three and a half percent. So I can make more money in the S and&P 500, right? Right. But again, you you have to be strategic about this decision making, right? And so I made a strategic decision. So people always shocked that I have student loans, but I'm like, no, no, no, it's well thought out.
00:33:02
Speaker
Right. It's part of the plan. If you're graduating today, you're probably at six, seven percent. You know, so your hustle has got to be pay down the loans, pay down the loans, pay down the loans. um And I think reading a lot can also give you insight, um you know, just in terms of how others did it. and And one book that always comes to mind is I always think of the book Shoe Dog. I don't know if you read that, but it's about the making of Nike.
00:33:25
Speaker
And, you know, this was a story. I mean, now that Nike's incredible, successful company, but at the time they were, you know, they literally would list out who was the top person they were going to pay down because again, they were trying to survive. And that's the thing to keep in mind when you're just starting out and you've got loans is prioritize your order of payees.
00:33:45
Speaker
I still remember the day that I paid off all of my student loans. that That must be a good day. Yes. Yes. It was a great day. I remember celebrating, but it was a long time coming. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, mine are coming up soon and I only have a little bit left, but it's, you know,
00:34:01
Speaker
That and paying off mortgages, you know, I wish we celebrated those two things more, right? Right. Which is, oh, you you know, you actually own your house outright. And people are always shocked when I say this, but I'm like, you know, even if you have a mortgage, like I get the leverage question. But since the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017, 90 percent of all Americans take the standard deduction. So you're not getting any bang for your buck with your mortgage. So if you can pay it off, pay it off. Do it. Exactly. Right.
Career Advice for Law Students and Conclusion
00:34:28
Speaker
Well, let me ask you, ah What advice would you give to prospective law students ah who who are aspiring to to pursue a career in in finance or financial management?
00:34:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So first of all, I mean, I think don't be afraid. I'll say this to all law students. Don't be afraid to take classes like tax, right? Everybody should be taking those classes. But, you know, I think the non-traditional path is actually become a lot less, a lot more common today, right? That it was 20 years ago when I was coming out of law school. And what I would tell people is don't be afraid to come out of law school and have different experiences with your career.
00:35:14
Speaker
you know I would make the argument you really don't need to get like serious until you know you're in your like mid-30s, but if you want to get out and do a round of investment banking or go work in asset management or you know in investment management or or do these different financial areas, go for it because careers are so long now. right i mean I'm in year 23 of my career and you know Now I'm a writer, right? I never would have seen foreseen that when I was at Rutgers. But your career is really a collection of all the experiences and it takes 20 years really to understand everything you've learned over the course of your career. And careers go up and down and you go through periods of time where everything's great and periods of time where everything's tough. And so that's why having a different set of experiences to rely on can make you more unique in the workplace.
00:36:07
Speaker
Such great advice. I completely agree. ah and And is there anything finally that that you would like to add that we haven't covered? Um, no, I mean, I think the thing I would just tell you is, you know, careers long are long and varied, right? And there are skills you learn in law school that you don't realize you will need at later points in in time. And one of those skills I would tell you is writing. So I know everybody's take legal research in writing, you write your memo, you write your brief, I'm assuming that's still how it works, right? It is, absolutely.
00:36:44
Speaker
You know, I will tell you the people who are able to write, it is a very, very nuanced skill set. You know, you don't hire someone just for the writing, but when someone can write, it is a really big plus.
00:36:59
Speaker
in growing your career. So focus on those types of classes um just as much as contracts and property and all that fun stuff and torts. But the writing classes are really really important and you learn as an attorney and law or law student how to write a certain way and that way of writing is very clear and very concise and that's a good thing because a lot of people are not good writers and they're not clear writers.
00:37:26
Speaker
that was such a great place yeah absolutely It's such a great transferable skill. And and clearly, you've you've taken that to heart in writing this book. It's it's a wonderful book, and I recommend it to everyone. ah And Meghan, I just want to say thank you so much for joining us today. This was a fascinating conversation, and and I really appreciate you taking the time. Yeah, no, thank you for having me on. And yeah, everybody check out the book. We're on Amazon and anywhere else you buy books, so thank you. Thank you.
00:37:56
Speaker
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