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S07E12: (Rebroadcast) Starting Your Own Law Firm, with Kiomeiry Csepes RLAW'13
18 Plays48 minutes ago
In a previously recorded episode, Kiomeiry Csepes RLAW'13 spoke with then-Rutgers Law Co-Dean Kimberly Mutcherson about what it was like starting a law firm, the importance of representation beyond affinity groups, and the challenges of owning a business at the start of the COVID-19 pandemic.
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The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to the award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and Dean of the Law School, Joanna Bond.
00:00:24
Speaker
Today's episode is a rebroadcast of a previously recorded episode of the podcast and was hosted by my predecessor, former Rutgers Law School co-dean, Kimberly Mutcherson.
00:00:38
Speaker
This is another episode where I get to talk to one of our absolutely fabulous alums who I've wanted to talk to on this podcast for a while. um And actually, i'm going to tell you this, Casey, um in front of all of these people, the primary reason why I wanted you to have wanted to have you on the podcast is so I could hear you say your name out loud.
00:00:59
Speaker
yeah because I've never called you anything other than Casey. So say it out loud for everybody and then we'll all know how to say it properly. First, thank you so much for having me. I'm a big fan of the of the podcast. I do listen. And it is Keo Mady the first name and the last name is Chapish.
00:01:19
Speaker
Chapish. See, that's krista i know that is not how I've ever said it yeah So thank you for that. um I'm going to keep calling you Casey because it's just ok that's that's how we we roll with each other.
00:01:33
Speaker
um So I am so excited to have a conversation with you about all sorts of bits and pieces, including you know what it's like to be a woman who started your own law firm. um which I always think is just such a um such a brave thing to do on a lot of levels. So, but let's start at the beginning, which is where I start with everybody, um which is what is your origin story? There are all these things that you could have done in the world and ultimately you decided to become a lawyer. So what was it that drew you to the law?
00:02:04
Speaker
So I'm one of those people or attorneys who knew since they were little that you know they wanted to be an attorney. Um, so when my mom and I came from Puerto Rico to New Jersey, um, she married, ah my dad who would later adopt me. And we ended up renting out this really small apartment in New Brunswick. It was an attic. And on the first floor was an attorney.
00:02:31
Speaker
So it worked. He owned the building. He lived on the second floor and he rented the attic to us. And I was about eight years old and my mom didn't know any English. And I would see my parents whenever they would get like something in the mail, always go downstairs to this like man and and, you know, ask like, what is this? How does it affect us? And even family members. So I would see how this man had so much power and was able to help my family through so many things. And I was like, I want to do that. Like, what is he? i want to be what he is because I want to help in that way.
00:03:06
Speaker
um And so that was my focus since then. I just said, I want to go to law school. I want to be an attorney. um And then when I graduated high school, I actually started attending community college and started working at a factory.
00:03:21
Speaker
um Just like some money to help me get through you know school because I was paying for it on my own. Yeah. And actually, you know, well, that's ah a whole other story, but definitely a lot of lessons learned from working at a factory. And it was one of those things. I was like putting alarm stickers on boxes at an assembly line. So was like, wow, your box. And I'm just like, I know I definitely don't want to do this.
00:03:45
Speaker
I need to get out of here. Um, so I, what I did was i made a resume. I went to New Brunswick and I went to every, law office I could find and I was like just giving them my resume like fresh out of high school like please hire me I want to know i want to be in the environment like I just want to see what it's like you know um and so I did that for a while and then my mom ended up calling me one day she works as a social worker in the county and so she was like hey you know um I know someone who knows someone so another lesson power of networking right yes um who knows the municipal prosecutor and he's looking for um like a secretary for his private office.
00:04:31
Speaker
Do you wanna try? And I was like, yes, please, yes. I'm gonna get out of this factory. um And so that's how I started. I started working as a secretary for the municipal prosecutor, his private office. um And he is now municipal court judge who refers cases to me.
00:04:50
Speaker
I know. it's it's It's crazy when I think about it. so So how old were you when you started working with him, would you say? 18. Wow.
00:05:01
Speaker
Making $6 an hour. yes but won't even talk about that. I know. I learned so much. He was very old school. So he was like the type that would be like, here's the file. I knew nothing, right? Like, here's a file. He had like all the old school books. He's like, I need this done. Go figure it out. Wow. Yeah, it was, it was crazy. So what an amazing experience though, right? I mean, did that sort of leave you feeling like, yes, this is where I want to be. This is what I want to do Yeah. Yeah.
00:05:36
Speaker
And especially the cases he was taking, um I could tell, like, it was just so crazy to me, mind boggling, like how, whatever you know You do have such an impact on the trajectory of these people's lives. like It really does. you know um and i i will forever He did a couple of Dyfus cases. and I still, to this day, they haunt me. and It was something that also gave me like the lessons. I definitely know I don't want to do that type of work, yeah but I want to be in like in this field.
00:06:07
Speaker
Yeah. So so for folks listening outside of New Jersey, DIFIS is the is the Child Protective Services um here in New Jersey. There's there's something about um Child Protective Services where they like to just change their names periodically. Right. yeah is it That makes it a whole new agency. um So, yeah, Dyfus has had multiple names around here, but yeah, those cases are really hard, I think, in in general, right? And so there are lots of folks um who may think they're really into family law, and then they start doing some of that stuff, and it's like, yeah, I'm i'm okay. I'm going to leave that for somebody else, definitely.
00:06:45
Speaker
um so So you started working with this this attorney, you had done some community college, ultimately you ended up at Rutgers, New Brunswick. um And so did you continue to work with this attorney all through college?
00:06:59
Speaker
So I actually, you know, like I said, I was only making six bucks an hour there. So I lose that. And he even says it to this day because we're friends. You know, he was like, um I was cheap. I was too cheap. I wish I would have kept you. like But um so I actually i was very fortunate. And I, you know, I do believe like I'm a hustler. So I just use that, you know, went to another firm and then I use that and went to another firm.
00:07:24
Speaker
um And i actually, what ended up happening is that I started earning really well. And so i kind of put my education on the back burner and I stopped.
00:07:35
Speaker
um So I only had an associates for a very long time. And then I, you know, you get to that point where you're like, if ah if I don't do this now, it's never gonna happen. Like yeah I needed to go back to school. um So that's what I did. i i don't even remember. So I graduated 2013. So I started, i went to Rutgers University New Brunswick to finish my bachelor's probably around 2010. And then from there went straight to law school.
00:08:03
Speaker
But I had like a good chunk of years where I was just working. Yeah. which turned out well, you know, because I do think that those experiences helped me be able to open my own law firm after I graduated right away. I would not, I hear a lot of law students say that they want to do that.
00:08:21
Speaker
And I, I definitely would not suggest doing that right out of law school. If you don't have, you know, that, that foundation, i wouldn't do it if I hadn't worked as a paralegal for all those years.
00:08:32
Speaker
Well, I definitely want to talk to you about your experience as a woman, a woman of color, um owning your own law firm. um But I want to talk a little bit about law school first, and in large part because, you know, you're a person who was not a traditional law student, right? You weren't coming a year away.
00:08:54
Speaker
um right out of undergrad, you weren't 21 years old, and you had had significant life experience and significant work experience. um So what do you feel like that that gave to you right as as a law student, having had um you know those kinds of experiences before you actually walked into a law school classroom?
00:09:19
Speaker
I think more than anything, it gave me the Like the mentality, like I'm not here to play play games and super challenging. Like I had a goal in mind, you know, and I i just wanted to get in and out.
00:09:32
Speaker
um That first year was very challenging and I'll speak very openly about it. I didn't do so well my first year. And I think it's important to talk about that. You know, I was put on academic probation. a lot of law students come in and a lot, I found out while I was in it that a lot of people were in the same situation, but everyone's scared to discuss this, you know?
00:09:55
Speaker
um and so I was like fighting for my life. I was like, no, like you can't kick me out. Like this is, this is what I want to do. Like I'm here for it. You know, like I, what do I need to do to to do better?
00:10:06
Speaker
um so it was, it was very challenging, but having work, having kids, you know i was a single mom with two kids, three and four years old. Like I couldn't afford to not get through it, you know? So I think that it absolutely gave me that and different perspectives. um You know, when you're reading certain cases, i think they're more real to you versus like just this abstract case that you're, that you're reading about, you know, people being take advantage of or accidents, like in almost every class, you really, really connect to what these people were going through.
00:10:39
Speaker
agree So I think that was another thing that I had, you know, gained from that experience. Yeah. I really i really appreciate you um sharing that you were on academic probation and that that first year um was really difficult for you because I think that there are you know a lot of folks who come into law school, whether it's Rutgers or another law school, um who are really accustomed to being successful and And then you walk into this space where, one, everybody is really accustomed to being successful, and even if that doesn't make them super competitive. Right. There are still people who really, really want to do well and who are willing to work really hard. to do well. And when you're working really hard to do well and you don't have the outcome that you are looking for, um it can be incredibly demoralizing, I think. So I wonder if you could share, you know, maybe just some words of uplift, right? We have a bunch of students who just finished their first year. um you know, maybe didn't do so well first semester and are really crossing their fingers that things will come together second semester, um but who maybe could use a little bit of a pep talk.
00:11:46
Speaker
So what would what would you say to those folks who are kind of, you know, thinking, maybe thinking to themselves, is this for me? Should I even be here? Right. I would definitely say don't don't give up. And I've had these discussions, um like, as you know, I do often do the, um through the MSP program, the mentorships, you know, And I've spoken to a lot of students who who have been in that in that boat and they are going through that.
00:12:10
Speaker
um And I tell them, like, look at me, like, I did it. I went through it. You know, it wasn't easy. But if this is really what you want, then it's worth, you know, fighting for. Learn how you, I think that was one of the things I had to do was learn how I studied. um You know, like what worked for me.
00:12:27
Speaker
um i was hearing everybody else, the way that they studied. and And, you know, I tried to do that. And that's just not, it didn't work for me. The study group, I couldn't do that. um I just was at a different pace, but you go, you know, with the mentality, everybody does that. You have to find a study group and you have to do these outlines. and um So that's what I've told some of my mentees also, like learn what works for you. And another big thing, and I think I find that more with minorities um is, and I don't know I'm phrase this, but sometimes you look at law school as like this, this big, like,
00:13:03
Speaker
not monster, but it's just like this thing where you feel like you don't belong. Right. And I don't know how to infiltrate it. Um, and so one thing I wish I had done was ask for help more, like reach out to my professors. Like they are there, they are open. They love it when you go talk to them, but I just looked at them. Like I couldn't reach them. You know what I mean? ah So that's one thing I absolutely ask for help. Don't be scared to ask for help, you know? Yeah, that is that is such a ah powerful message. And I think that sometimes students see um asking for help as this sort of display of weakness and and students often think, well, everybody else is getting it, which is like 99% of the time not true.
00:13:47
Speaker
There are other people who are struggling as well. um and And I always say that office hours are often the loneliest hours of the week for professors. People don't come and talk to us and we're like, hello. um But, you know, and and sometimes I also think it's just even being able to sit, you know, just across from the professor, not in a classroom setting can sometimes help you kind of settle down and not feel so intimidated. um And there's real value in that. So I think that's ah a terrific, terrific piece of advice. um So you went through law school, you had that struggle in your first year, you were like, okay, got to get it together, um which you did, obviously. um Went on the South African con law trip with me um at one point, which was so fantastic. And I'm so glad that you were able to to take that trip with us.
00:14:34
Speaker
um But then you graduated from law school, and it was time to to be a lawyer. Right. Right. I wonder, I mean, obviously you ended up opening up your own law firm, but is that what the plan was from the beginning to eventually open your own firm?
00:14:50
Speaker
Yeah, it was. That was purpose. Working as a paralegal, I was able to see like different types of law offices. So I worked for like midsize. worked for solo. And I just, I knew i didn't want ah to work for anybody. i yeah I was like, I want to be my own boss. Yeah. I want the flexibility. um you know I want to do what I want to do, take the cases that I want. um So I did. I knew like from from day one, like this is what I'm coming here for, getting my degree and opening up my own shop. Yeah. It must be amazing to just like to see your name right on on this on this business that's that's thriving and where you get to really decide the direction and and how you're going to do what you're going to do. so um And it feels like it takes an enormous amount of
00:15:37
Speaker
belief and faith in yourself um to step out like that. um Could you talk about sort of, you know, what it is that you think gave you that sense of this is 100% something that I can do because I don't feel like I could do it. Right. So I think it's really impressive um when when students step out like that. And and how how many years out were you when you started your firm? I started right away. Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay. Okay.
00:16:06
Speaker
right So even, even more impressive. And again, right. Like you were older, you, you know, had worked in a bunch of firms, but still it's a big deal to start your own business, whether it's a law firm or something else. So what gave you that sense of, you know, fortitude that this is a thing you could do?
00:16:22
Speaker
i mean, it was definitely nerve wracking. Um, you know, and, and I, I think I had like $3,500 to my name when I started. Cause that's like the number one question I get asked is like, well, how much money do you need? Um, So I was like working off my cell phone and you know, you, you talk to other, talk to, that's what I did. And I think that's like a ah great tip is like, go talk to other people that have done it right. Like go talk to solo practitioner, go talk to firm partners. And like, how did you do it? How did you start? What tools do I need? And I did that. um So i I had like my cell phone with like a Google ah business number running through it.
00:17:00
Speaker
um And, you know, I was printing my own letterhead and using my laptop. I mean, It was a lot of hustling in the beginning, for sure. it was very nerve wracking. I was all my own. And that's another aspect of it is like, um you know, it's your name now.
00:17:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's all that letter and on those pleadings and before that judge. So it's a huge responsibility. And again, that's why I would never tell anyone to do this unless they had the experience, you know, an exposure to it.
00:17:32
Speaker
Um, but I think it was just like, I knew that that's what I wanted and I was going to make it work some way, somehow, like I was going to make it work. Um, and like you said, you know, seeing my name, I think that was one of the, probably the coolest things in that first year was like printing out a letter and like signing my name and see, I'm like, you know, that it felt good. it felt good. And I think that feeling, it was like, I can do this, you know, I can, I can definitely do this. I have a good support system. yeah.
00:18:01
Speaker
Let's see what happens. And the the people who you went to, to ask them for advice, like I've, I've talked to alums before who say, you know, when I was trying to figure out, you know, what are the things that I need to know in my practice area? and One person in particular, I remember who said, who's a criminal defense attorney and said, I would sit in the back of courtrooms and I would just watch lawyers, right. And see how they interacted with the judges and, You know, and and then she like basically, you know, accosted a couple of them and was like, you are going to be my mentor, right? I like what you do and I like how you do it. um And I want you to be helpful to me, which, you know, also takes a certain level of of gumption, right? Right. So how you know how did you go about figuring out, okay, here are the people who are going to be you know maybe someone I have a casual conversation with versus somebody who I really want to you know connect with them, have a relationship with them, and really you know use them as a mentor over time?
00:19:03
Speaker
So I would say like there was two two things. Number one I was still while in law school working as a paralegal. So I was working for an attorney in Trenton who had you know his own solo practice and he rented out another office to another attorney who practiced immigration law. um And so they both sort of used me as their paralegal to research things, draft things. I would often go to court with them, and even if it wasn't what I was going to be doing because of the same reason that you stated, like, I just want to be in the court, look at people. And I was very um you know fortunate and
00:19:41
Speaker
you know Perhaps it was a mutual respect, but my um you know the attorney I was working for, he always spoke so highly of me. And to this day, I appreciate him. you know He would always introduce me like, this is my prelegal. She's in law school. or She's going to be an attorney. like you know She's great at this, even to judges and family court and things like that.
00:20:02
Speaker
um And so when they knew that I was funny, because I got he swore me in actually as an attorney. um And that same day he sent me to court. um So I was like, all right, you're starting and you can go.
00:20:15
Speaker
So I had both of them kind of like ready for me to be an attorney so they can use me and send me and, you know, So I, to this day, appreciate that um because they fed me work, you know? And so that was, I think the, you know, the one thing. um And then the second thing, which I tell like mentees, law students, anybody is networking. I mean, it is, it's huge in this field. The community is, is, is actually really small, you know, it really truly is. um And so I always tell people join bar associations, you know, and when you can take on leadership roles because you do And don't do it just for the referrals, you know, because you gain so much more. But it is. It's huge. You know, they you get referrals from those relationships that you make. One one of the things that I say every year um at orientation to students um is your career has started right now, right? Like the people who are in this room with you are people who are going to be practicing law with you. And they're going to be your adversaries. They're going to feed you clients. They're going to be... you know the people who say nice things about you when youre when you aren't in the room. And so you really have to think about that reputation, right? that you're That you're building among others, which I think is is so critical. But the other thing that you said that I really, really liked was this this idea that the people who were you know mentors for you and who were working really hard to help you be successful and to push you forward were both men.
00:21:49
Speaker
Because I think sometimes- I'm sorry. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Wait, what? Yeah. One was a woman. I'm sorry. One was a woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the main one was a woman. Yeah, yeah. That's what i thought. I got to hear you. Okay. Yes. um But I think that's really important because I think sometimes people think, oh, the you know the best mentor for me is somebody who's exactly like me. And I think it's nice sometimes to have a mentor who's exactly like you, but it's also nice to have people who aren't. Exactly like you. And so I think that that's a really powerful message um that you shared as well. And the third thing that i that I love about what you said is these are these are folks who were good to you. And so you were able to cultivate relationships and you were able to you know be successful in part because of what they helped you with. So if you're you know a paralegal who's at a place where people aren't doing that for you, maybe think that that's not the best place for you to be, Right, right.
00:22:45
Speaker
Yeah, i think there's i think there's value in that lesson as well. um Awesome. So let's talk about, so you open up your practice and and you know I think one of those pieces that people that don't always fall in place for people as quickly as it should is that you're running a business.
00:23:04
Speaker
You're not just a lawyer, you are a small business owner. So can you talk about that transition, right? So now you own a business, you have to you know do all the stuff that's required to make sure that you are set up properly. You have to think about, and as you grow, you have to think about payroll and insurance and benefits, right? All of this stuff. So what has that been like? And how did you how did you learn all those little things that you needed to do in order to keep your doors open?
00:23:33
Speaker
Right, right. um And it's funny because we just did a boot camp with the HBA on on on this same topic um because we write law school doesn't teach you to be a business owner, you know. um So that was definitely, again, me reaching out to other people who have done it, asking different, you know, um suggestions for for different things. um And then, you know, the the second thing again is the bar associations have committees. solo and small firm committees. And I highly recommend if you're thinking about it, like join those committees um because what's what you'll find, I think more so with solo practitioners, we're not in a firm, right? So we don't get to have team meetings with other attorneys and like, you know, so the solo firm committee, that's our law firm. Like it's not competitive. You know, it's one of the greatest groups of people trying to share ideas and how to making, you know, business better.
00:24:29
Speaker
um and And truthfully, I didn't expect, you know, you go into it, I wasn't really mentally like saying I'm going to be a business owner. I was just saying I'm going to open up a law. but it's um So it's definitely been a learning curve. And it's it's one of the things I actually enjoy most of it. I didn't think I was going to. um But like the marketing and, you know, trying to negotiate different contracts for insurance and um you know, changing the logo, like you get to be like artistic also. And it's it's actually, it's been really fun, um that aspect of of it.
00:25:06
Speaker
It's stressful sometimes, you know, because you're wearing a lot of different hats. ah but But it's definitely like, the more fun part of the job, I think. Well, let's, let's talk about the law part again as well. So, um, you, practice you do immigration law, you do family law. Um, what are some of the other practice areas that you work in?
00:25:27
Speaker
um so I just started doing a little bit of real estate, like just simple, uh, buy sell real estate, but my main is family law and immigration. And what made you pick those two to drill down on? Mm-hmm. So with family law, it was one of those things where i kind of just fell into it because when I was working for the firms, that's what I did as a paralegal. um So it's what I knew.
00:25:49
Speaker
and it's what I knew that it would, you know, make me money, you know, that I can make money off because I knew it. I know how to do it. With immigration, actually, one of my family members went through removal proceedings and was removed. um And I saw like firsthand how that affected my family. And so I this happened like during law school, I knew like I want to get into this somehow. I want to help because the laws that were responsible for the removal, it was very unfair. They were very unjust. And there was a lot of people I realized that were in the same situation. Um, so interestingly, my last year at law school, I became part of the inaugural immigrant justice clinic at Rutgers Law School with Professor Gottesman. It was the first year they were doing it. and
00:26:36
Speaker
And I was like, I want I think I even asked you for a letter recommendation, right? I think that might be right. Yes. um South Africa. But yeah, so I was like, I want to get, you know i want to learn. I want to know about this. um So I, we took on, i mean, this is amazing. So we took on a case of two and two minor girls. who were trying to apply for a thing called Special Immigrant Justice Clinic.
00:27:02
Speaker
And it was like perfect for me because that particular case actually combines family law and immigration. So in those type of cases, you're seeking the court to give your client custody of a minor who came from another country into the U.S. And then you're also asking the judge to make like certain findings that are relevant to the immigration law.
00:27:25
Speaker
um And so my partner- That sounds complicated. mean it it it is a little, it is complicated. um i guess now I've been doing it so long, it's very, you know, it's the same ah thing that we asked for, but it can be, it can be certain aspects of it it can be very complicated.
00:27:42
Speaker
um so so is so So let me let me just, ah again, just just sort of level set for for some folks. So clinics are opportunities for students to basically be lawyers while they're in law school. And our Immigrant Justice Clinic, which is run by um Professor Gottesman, who I went to law school with. I don't know if you know that. Oh, you know that. and We went to law school together. Yeah.
00:28:06
Speaker
And does work for people who are seeking status in the United States, maybe they're um looking for asylum. um and And the focus has often been on children and their immigration issues. So you you and your partner, right? Everybody always works as as partners, which I appreciate, right? Because you have somebody to lean on. But you and your partner had a particular case and you said was for two partners.
00:28:31
Speaker
Two kids? Two sisters. Okay. Two sisters. That's why. Yeah, they were sisters. um And so we went before this judge who at the time um it was She was a new judge. And so she was not familiar with these cases. Yeah. So now I do them and the judges are very familiar with them and they kind of already know. And they're focusing on just like the facts, right? Like just the factual um aspect of the of the cases. When I went with Tina, this judge did not know. So she put us on the hot seat.
00:29:03
Speaker
And was asking a lot of questions on the law. Like, why are we in family court? What does this case have to do? So, I mean, it was a very, you know, it was a great learning. Yes. for clinic um But, you know, we're student lawyers and like, you know, third year and we have these girls that are like relying on us and we're looking at each other we're like we thought this was going to be a lot easier than what it was.
00:29:27
Speaker
But, um and I remember the judge even asked us to to give her a moment um because it was very, you know, it was a very new thing for her. And she like went back and I think she was trying to discuss and and find out what what to do. And then she went back in and she actually told us, okay, you know, I'm going to consider what you've told me, consider the brief and you're going to to wait for a decision. because Wow. Yeah, it was crazy. So wait it gets better. so We win the case. We get the order, i think, a few months later. But that's just the first part of the case. The second case is seeking the actual visa from immigration using this custody order from family court. Got it. Okay.
00:30:07
Speaker
That usually takes like three years. Wow. It's crazy. It's so crazy. But it happens. She, the the minor daughter, I get a phone call.
00:30:19
Speaker
I'm already graduated, already have my own office. And I get a phone call from the mom saying, hey, I don't know if you remember me, but you helped my daughter. know.
00:30:31
Speaker
Oh my gosh. student attorney I want to thank you so much. Like she actually is now a permanent resident. I know. It was like great- Great feeling. That is amazing.
00:30:48
Speaker
Four years later, they remember. So the Justice Clinic, that's another thing. Like if law students are are listening in, like absolutely join clinic. It's a great experience. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I i graduated law school a long time ago um and I still remember my clinic so vividly. And I remember, you know, one particular client so vividly. um and and still sort of draw on some of the lessons that I learned through through that experience. Absolutely. um so you already sort of had the the the immigration experience um and the family law experience. Now you're branching out um a little bit more um from there. But I would love to talk a little bit more about the sort of like, you know,
00:31:34
Speaker
that though the work itself, um because you talked about this sort of triumphant story from when you were um in the clinic. and But as a person who, you know, family law is one of my areas, and not so much immigration, but, you know, I always talk about family law as being, or I talk about family courts as being lawless places.
00:31:56
Speaker
because the kinds of things that happen in family court, particularly because so many clients don't have lawyers, um some of the things that happen in family court are are really unacceptable. um And my sense is that in the immigration space, sometimes that can be the same way, right? Because if they're, you know I remember reading an article years ago about little kids being brought in before immigration judges and they didn't have lawyers. Who does that? yeah um So you know it sounds like you're working in two practice areas that can be particularly thorny um and difficult. So you know what is that like for you as a lawyer, as a practitioner? I mean, somebody who's skilled, obviously.
00:32:38
Speaker
But sometimes it's not about skill because you're in front of a judge who's like, I'm going to do what I'm going to do. Right. Right. um So I think with with family law, what I appreciate a little bit more is that you kind of know you kind of have like an outline of how a divorce case is going to go. you know, you know what what alimony is going to probably be child support. There's a formula, you know, and and the judges follow those and follow the case law. And so for the most part, you kind of know what you're going to get.
00:33:06
Speaker
um What I don't like, of course, family law is very adversarial, right? you know And it can get very, very immature. You know you deal with some attorneys that are just terrible to work on. I like to say that there's nothing there's nothing like the hate between two people who used to love each other.
00:33:24
Speaker
yeah Oh yeah yeah, it's really bad. So that's that's the one thing with family law that I don't you know like too much. um With immigration law, it's interesting. The attorneys are kind of like, you know, we're all like in it together, you know what I mean? Cause we're all like this, this government machine.
00:33:44
Speaker
But immigration is just, um I question myself every day. Why I, why I'm still doing it. No, I, I wouldn't give it up, but it is, it is very challenging um because it there is no real framework, you know? I mean,
00:34:04
Speaker
policies come in all the time that change everything so drastically. During the Trump administration, you know, while a lot of attorneys were were out of work, you know, i think family law, I was very busy. Family law and immigration were both very busy because we were getting policies almost weekly. I would get an email, this changed, this changed, this changed. And attorney general was, Sessions was, you know,
00:34:30
Speaker
assigning cases. One of the big ones was he assigned a case where he took the asylum law and said, you know, if you suffer domestic violence or gang violence, you can no longer apply for asylum. And that's the bulk of the cases. And yeah it just put all these people with applications who are already been, you know, five years submitted these applications, submitted expert reports. And like, now what do we do? So it's, yeah, it was it was very challenging. It still is. You know, now we have this new thing um and it's I don't know, I don't want to get too complicated, but you know, it's it's called prosecutorial discretion. And basically that means that the the government attorney can look at the case and say, well, this person isn't a danger to the community or to the U.S. You know, we're going to terminate their case, right? And so at first, this was amazing. This was a great tool, right, that we were able to use for people and say, OK, great, can we get this case terminated? And they would. You know, this is this is recent.
00:35:32
Speaker
Now they're using that tool against us because now we have cases with really great asylum, right? Really great asylum claims where if we go before the judge, you have a great chance at winning. But now the government is saying, well, they're not a danger to the U.S. We're going to terminate their case. And so when they terminate their case, they're removing them from immigration court. So they cannot get any any kind of benefits. They can't get deported, but they can't get a work permit. They can never become a citizen because they are not in the system.
00:36:08
Speaker
They've removed the charges. And so now. attorneys from the bar saying, wait a minute, like we need to do something because if they have a great asylum claim, they should be able to file their application. Absolutely.
00:36:21
Speaker
But the court's position is I don't have jurisdiction. If the government is removing the charges, I can't allow them to file because there's nothing before me. So now we're up against that.
00:36:33
Speaker
um So and that's it's little things like that that just continually happen, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's also sort of the contrast between family law and immigration law, right? Like family law is is relatively static, right? there aren't There aren't usually these like huge upheavals um in family law. Whereas with immigration, you get a new administration and all of a sudden, you know, the rules just completely go out um the window. Which, ah that just seems really hard to deal with that. And I think the other thing, and I want to ask you about this too, because I think, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, what lawyers do in court and how lawyers craft arguments and all of this kind of stuff.
00:37:18
Speaker
But so much of being a lawyer, especially in the kind of practice that you are doing, is about counseling clients. It's about how you build relationships with clients. It's um sometimes about delivering really difficult news um to clients. um And I'm always really curious to talk to folks about you know how do you how do you handle that side of the work, which I think requires often requires enormous amounts of both sympathy and empathy.
00:37:49
Speaker
And then on the other side of it when things don't go the way that you wanted them to go or that the client wanted them to go, how do you not sort of take take on this sense of, oh, I i have failed this person or or sort of take on you know that loss in a very personal way?
00:38:08
Speaker
i will say I'm still learning. how to yeah It's hard. It's hard. And I think I feel it. I definitely feel it more with, with immigration. Cause I, you know, as you know, with family law, like you said, you know, we're seeing people on their work, good people on their worst day. Right. And so that it's a little different, but with immigration law, like sometimes I've had to tell people, I'm sorry, you're getting removed and they have an entire life here, kids here, you know, and it's just, it's hard.
00:38:38
Speaker
um I remember one time i was ah in the trial, you know, we gave it all we got. And I, And it was one of those cases where, and you know, somebody, sometimes just you could you could edit this out, but um if you want, but I just remember one of my mentors told me like, you know, when you've reached the point where, you know, like you've, you're an attorney is when, what is it? When you lose a case, you should have won and you won a case you should have lost. um And so I had this case where I knew he should have won, you know, and I still, to this day, like he had such a great case with such great evidence. um And it was a father who was detained.
00:39:13
Speaker
He was in the computer screen. I had the mom behind me with the kids and the the judge was, you know, reading off the decision and it was denying him asylum and he was detained. So he was definitely getting on a plane. You know what i mean? Like it wasn't like some people that get removal orders and stay like he was definitely not going to be able to say goodbye. um And so I see this grown man on the screen and he just starts crying and praying.
00:39:40
Speaker
oh wow And I'm just sitting there and I have the mom and the kids and like, I can't cry, you know, that's all I want to do. And I'm just like, just, you have to talk to yourself, like, please keep it together. Like, don't, you know, you have to be strong for them. um And it's hard because like, I'm still talking about it today. Right. So it still affects affects me. So it's hard not to bring that home. But I think that that also means like you're empathizing with them. Like it's real, you know, people's lives. Yeah.
00:40:12
Speaker
it's There's no way around it. Right. Right. And that's the thing. I mean, you know, it's one thing if you're representing, you know, some huge corporation, um you know, and and it's not even really about whether it's business or personal. Right. Because you could be representing small business owners and for them, it's super personal. right um But, you know, that that being a lawyer is being in relationship with people um all of the time and people who are looking to you to fix things for them. And that that can be an enormous, enormous amount of pressure. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
00:40:49
Speaker
I think some things too, um and that's something I think I learned like through the pandemic more because it was, you felt it more, right? Like the pandemic just made everything like triple fold. Yeah.
00:41:01
Speaker
And so like one thing that I always tell people to that I, and like I said, it's a work in progress, right? But you gotta take a break. You have to like step away from it, like do something fun, do something with the kids or travel. That's like my thing. I love to travel or walk. Sometimes I have to like, I need to get out, you know, and just walk just so you can kind of hit pause.
00:41:23
Speaker
Yeah. um So, the you know, the other thing that I'm thinking about, cause you, you know, you raised the pandemic, um, you're You're basically a small business owner and, you know, what felt like overnight to a lot of us, the world just collapsed in these really dramatic, dramatic ways. um How was that for you? i mean, you said there was an uptick in work actually in some ways for you. um But it feels like that must that might have been really scary too, you know even beyond what was already scary about it, but just like, all right, I've got a business that I have to be able to run. i have to you know the The courts are shutting down and now I have to turn into a Zoom lawyer. right i mean, it seems like it must have been um you know a lot of things that you just had to juggle and and make happen. Yeah, it was. um It was definitely scary. I had two employees full time. One of them has kids, you know, and it's like, wow, they're relying on me to pay their salary.
00:42:22
Speaker
ah yeah They need to be able to live also. So it was definitely scary. And it was a huge learning curve for me there. I definitely changed like what my practice looked like. I, I, and I'm sure lot of people did, but my stuff was not like online. You know, I was like old school, I was taught old school. And so I was old school. And it was a big adjustment for me to get all my files. Oh my goodness. All my files scans, we got case management software and the billing. And it was, it was definitely challenging. I'm,
00:42:55
Speaker
glad that it forced me to do that because it, you know, much more organized. And again, I will say, and I know I've said this before, but like ah the Bar Association, again, during that time was amazing. Even like the solo small firm committee, like all of the bar leadership, so many resources and tools that they gave out to make sure everybody was okay. And I was doing all the Zoom CLEs because, you know, you're in that survival mode. Like, how can I make this work?
00:43:25
Speaker
um But it was, it was very challenging. Yeah. um So, so you, you just, we're just, we're talking about, you know, all the resources that were available because you are, you know a part of these bar associations and and there are so many bar associations, right? There's just like just the regular kind of New Jersey State Bar Association and then there are the sort of affinity groups for people from different communities and those bar associations. So how did you so one, ah you know beyond the sort of resources and networking, um are there other things that you would say are a good reason to be involved? um in these other organizations. And you know my sense, and tell me if I'm wrong, but my sense is that you know that you're not just you know somebody who shows up for the occasional meeting, right? Like you're somebody who really takes these organizations seriously um and you know and somebody who wants to be a part of helping them to be successful. So you know what is it, again, beyond the sort of resources and and the networking, you know what are what are some of the things that you get from that experience?
00:44:28
Speaker
So i get ah i get a lot. One of the things for me was like if representation matters. Right. And I can tell you that in if not an affinity bar, the other bar associations that I'm involved in, I'm usually the only like Latina, you know, in in in the room. And so that was really important for me. And it's something that I try to get other people you know that are out or law students like join these bar associations because they actually have a lot to do. They influence policies like in New Jersey. In a lot of meetings, we'll get like some new rules, some new statutes, and we'll spend an hour like debating and discussing and changing and recommending.
00:45:09
Speaker
um So I think it's so important to be involved for for that aspect. you know You want to be able to give back to your community. That was huge for me. um i do practice immigration family law. And I will say that like 90% of my clients are Latino. You know, so I want to focus on that. I want to be seen, you know, for that.
00:45:31
Speaker
um So and another thing is it it makes you a better lawyer. You know, you're discussing these things. You're even the networking. You're exposing yourself to other attorneys in other areas of the law.
00:45:43
Speaker
um You're able to get put in a position where you can be on CLEs. And again, like representation. Right. And you also learn when you give CLEs. I always learn so much because you research the topic. You like research it to death. but um So, yeah, you do like, i you know, you get to do speaking engagements, writing opportunities. um So I do. I really love it's like a part time job, but I love.
00:46:10
Speaker
Love doing it. Yeah. but Yeah. um So I just I want to ask you just a couple a couple other questions. um So one is that, you know, you talked about the fact that you have two kids, that your kids are actually quite young um um when you started school and then you graduated and you started a law firm. um and you know, I'm not I'm never, ever one of those people who says, you know, so you can have it all because nobody can have it all.
00:46:37
Speaker
Right. um It's just it's just not a true thing. So I wonder, you know, for you what have you been able to do in terms of, you know, creating a village or, you know, whatever it is that you've needed in order to be able to be as successful as you have been and then also be able to parent and to spend time with your kids and to travel with your kids, which I know you do a lot and and that you love to do. You know, how have you been able or what advice might you give to folks about, you know, how to organize your life in such a way that you can have a professional career but also have a personal life that you feel good about?
00:47:10
Speaker
Right. I think, um you know, like you said, it's impossible to have everything balanced. Like, I don't believe that's true at all. You're always going have one ball on the ground. And I think that it really is just a matter of prioritizing at that moment what what it is you need to focus your attention on. um And I think, you know, I've raised my children and think you have to do that if you want to do these things like you have to let them know, like, this is what I'm doing. This is important to me. And involve them like, you know, I've brought my children to many events, which they actually love attending, exposing them to that. um And also like, don't be scared to ask for help. I think a lot of people try to like do everything on their own. And that's when you fail. You need to ask for help, you know, then as a mom and as an attorney, you know, if I can't, I've had moments as a solo practitioner where like, I can't go to a hearing because I have to, you know, do something for my kids. And you call an attorney, like, can you cover this for me? Don't be scared to ask for an adjournment, you know? Children live their own lives too, you know? Like, all of them have families, they understand.
00:48:14
Speaker
So don't don't be scared to ask for help. Don't be scared to discuss, like, what's you know what's going on, communicate. think that's really important. And then also, like, mentorship, you yeah had spoken about that too. um You know, I'm very fortunate, and and i Hispanic Bar Association, right? Judge Melendez, Judge Garcia, um a lot of attorneys,
00:48:34
Speaker
Go to them, talk to them. You know, how did this work for you? Because they also have kids. How do they do it all? I always ask them, like, how are you at all these events? How are you doing this? You know, um because they have kids and families. And so definitely do that.
00:48:49
Speaker
Does it does it feel this was not the other question I was going to ask? so I still have questions. and Does it feel weird to you that you are now that person that other lost that law students are looking up to and emulating? And I want to be her when I grow up.
00:49:04
Speaker
It's very weird. It's very weird. And it's funny that you asked that because I went to an event, I think it was last year, the summer mixer whatever. And I had a law student coming up to me and I was telling her all these things. And she said the same thing. She was like, but you know that like, you're the, you're like that now, right? Like, I want to be like you. And I was like, but it feels good because you know, it's hard. Like I didn't have that growing up, you know? And so to be that for someone, that feels amazing. It feels, but it is weird. Yeah. It's definitely, it's definitely, yes, yes. But it is, you know, I hope that you also feel it as such a reflection of, you know, kind of the person who you right? Because there are a lot of people who students wouldn't have a conversation with because they you know, would be intimidating or they, you know, wouldn't seem interested. Whereas, you know, I feel like you're, you know, you come back to events at the law school all the time, you're mentoring students. And I just think that that is such a, it's such a huge gift. to the folks who come behind you. And as you said, representation matters. And the number of students, particularly students of color, who I've talked over the years who say, never met a lawyer who looked like me until I got to law school. I don't wanna hear those stories anymore. So it's so valuable that you are doing what you do. All right. Last question.
00:50:34
Speaker
So you've already done so much, right? You have a successful practice. You're raising two great kids. You travel all over the world. You're involved in all these organizations. and You are a rising star as named by New Jersey super lawyers um for 2022. So what you know what what' what are your ambitions? Like, what are you thinking about? Okay, what's what's next for me? and Where do I go from here?
00:51:01
Speaker
So i you know, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'm at year seven of practicing and I'm like, wow, I'm reaching that 10 year mark. um I definitely want to, I have some goals. Like I definitely want to grow my firm. um I do want to hire an associate, kind of get free up more of my time. um I want to write a book, possibly teach. um So those are some things I'm kind of thinking about for the future. All right. I like i like that teaching thing. i be reaching out. yeah but
00:51:34
Speaker
yeah Well, thank Casey, thank you so much. it's It's always wonderful to talk to you. It's always wonderful um to see you, although the people listening to this aren aren't able to see you. um And i'm just you know I'm just so extraordinarily proud of you know what what you have built for yourself. um and and you know the lawyer that you have become. So it's really, makes me really happy that you chose Rutgers Law for your law degree.
00:52:00
Speaker
Thank you, thank you so much because you've also been one of my mentors in the law school for all the opportunities you guys have given me. I wouldn't be here without that. So I really appreciate it. Awesome, thank you. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you, you too.
00:52:15
Speaker
The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large nationally known university with a personal small campus experience.
00:52:32
Speaker
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