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S7E08: The Do's and Don'ts of Applying for Law School — with Dean Matthew Saleh
0 Playsin 12 hours
Senior Associate Dean for Enrollment Management & Financial Aid Matthew Saleh joins Dean Bond for a conversation about his own journey that brought him to Rutgers Law and to share some advice for aspiring law students.
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The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Introduction to The Power of Attorney
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to the award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and Dean of the Law School, Joanna Bond.
Meet Matt Sala: Record-Breaking Achievements
00:00:24
Speaker
Joining me today is Matt Sala, Rutgers Law School Senior Associate Dean for Enrollment Management and Financial Aid. Matt and his team have welcomed record-breaking numbers of students to our law school over the past three years. These classes in Camden and Newark have been some of the most diverse in our law school's history.
00:00:43
Speaker
Recently, he was honored by Alianza for his transformative leadership in expanding access to legal education, leading with vision and purpose, eliminating conditional scholarships, and overhauling admissions to reach more applicants.
00:00:57
Speaker
Matt is going to give us some do's and don'ts when applying and details on upcoming changes in admissions.
Origin Story: Growing Up in the Bronx
00:01:04
Speaker
Welcome, Matt. So thank me off on yeah thanks for joining me. Uh, we often start this podcast with the same question. And so you won't be surprised, but I really do want to hear about your origin story.
00:01:19
Speaker
All right. Um, for better and for worse, I talk about my origin story in almost every in-person or online information session I give. So for this podcast, I think I'll go a bit deeper as to what led me into the world of education in general.
00:01:36
Speaker
and kind of how I approach my work. And it might be a little bit long-winded, but it wouldn't be a response for me if it wasn't. But I hope it makes sense the end. That is true. can echo that. Okay, that's great. Go for it. Thanks.
00:01:50
Speaker
Perfect. so I was born in and the Bronx in New York City. I'm the youngest of three brothers to ah a Jewish mother who identified as Muslim and a Muslim father who converted to Judaism. And I understand that in and of itself would take a while to unpack, which we can put a pin in for another podcast. But when they were together, they divorced when I was two years old. So my two brothers and I were raised by our mom.
00:02:15
Speaker
And she was a math teacher and my Zadie or my grandfather helped start a yeshiva in Brooklyn. So education was quite important in our family and strong grades were sort of an expectation ever since
The Impact of Family and Education
00:02:28
Speaker
I was younger. And we were quite poor growing up. We lived off Section 8 housing and welfare. So without the distractions of vacations or any or many material possessions, we kind of threw ourselves into school because it offered an escape from the world that we lived in. And when I was 12, my oldest brother unfortunately suddenly passed away when he was 16. And then it was a difficult time, but likely as a coping mechanism, I poured more of myself into school to not think about
00:02:56
Speaker
the reality and the magnitude of the loss too much. And you know during that time, I remember teachers being so supportive and kind, and they helped me get through a very difficult time. And this theme would occur again when my other brother passed away during my final semester of school and when he was 23.
Choosing a Career in Higher Education
00:03:15
Speaker
And the support and the grace that I received from the my former dean of students and professors were the reason that I was able to get through that dark period and eventually graduate with my degree. So from my professors, my early teachers, my administrators, they were the ones who made me realize that I wanted to go into higher education so that I can offer some of the same kind of help that I received. However, you know, my love for data and for numbers and the general nerd that I am through my STEM background didn't necessarily align with a traditional student affairs role. So
Commitment to Rutgers' Mission
00:03:52
Speaker
I just thought that I would enter into higher education as a professor when I was much older after years of working in the corporate world. But fast forward to 2012 after years of working in the corporate world when position opened up in admissions at a law school in New York City. And I thought this would be a great blend between my original training, and my desire to help students. So, you know, really throughout my life, I've poured myself into, you know, the academic institutions that I was a part of. And since assuming a leadership position in admissions in 2017, I probably have dedicated around 70 hours a week or more with not much vacation time because this work means a lot to me. You know, as someone who has lost most of my family and spends most of my waking hours at law school,
00:04:42
Speaker
You know, i take my role seriously because I feel like I'm inviting people into this adopted or chosen family of mine. um So kind of like, you know, a father, or I'm sure Dean Bond, if, you know, your daughter brings home a date, I'm sure the way in which you grill them and are protective of them is the same way that I'm protective of the institution that has provided me with the same sense of purpose and my extended family. So I do take a lot of great care to ensure that applicants that we choose to admit will not only be great students and and alumni, but ambassadors of Rutgers for years to come.
00:05:20
Speaker
So there is my long winded version of kind of my origin story to get here today. Well, thanks for that, Matt. and And I'm truly sorry about the loss of your brothers. I'm i'm i'm happy that you had support system and and great teachers who showed kindness and and true support that that can make a big difference. And it's as you pointed out, it's it's part of what we try and foster here at Rutgers. um I'm so glad that you found your way into higher ed. It's to our great benefit and to the benefit of all of our students who know you. um So, so that, that is, is really, um, a happy development in, in terms of, um, your journey to Rutgers.
Beyond Admissions: Matt's Diverse Interests
00:06:06
Speaker
And, um, I'm going to ask you something, and you've already given us a lot of information about, about yourself and, and, um, growing up, but what's something about you that, that someone wouldn't ordinarily know or see from your CV? Yeah.
00:06:24
Speaker
Ooh, I probably should have thought about this more. ah um The thing is that, yes, I'm, I mean, in terms of the the work itself, I'm an institutional advocate, of course, for Rutgers. And this is the third law school I've had the opportunity to work at. But I'm a real big proponent of, you know, providing access and help to students, regardless if they come to Rutgers or elsewhere. So I actually do two times a semester pre-law advising with a professor, Professor Milton Heumann on the New Brunswick campus, um regardless of where they're thinking about applying to as a means of one, trying to provide them with the insight and information that can hopefully make them competitive, regardless of the law school that they're seeking to apply to. um And then I
Advice to Prospective Law Students
00:07:11
Speaker
also do free consulting for our faculty members who have children or family friends. who are thinking about applying to law school because i ask them so much all the time that I feel like I can throw them a bone and and give them a assistance. But I mean, outside of this, I used to be the director of a, it was called the Eastern Collegiate Racquetball Conference or ECRC. So, you know, for me, I used to coordinate and run racquetball tournaments about four to six times a year.
00:07:40
Speaker
um for a number of years. So that's not something that pops up in my CV, nor is it something that I talk about, because I'm trying to do as anything that I can to get rid of this nerd persona. And I feel like being a director of a racquetball league only adds to to to that sentiment.
00:07:59
Speaker
Absolutely. No, no. i I'm really pleased to know that about you, Matt. But I i also know you and I know that that as as director of the Racquetball League, you're probably following the stats on every single player in that league. So yes, I can see the the stats coming together with racquetball. Well, that also explains a lot about about why you're trying to talk me into playing basketball for the SBA ah game
Common Application Mistakes
00:08:27
Speaker
upcoming game. So assuming we can put an actual team together, i think we'll be out there on the court together. Although now that I know about your racquetball history, I'm i'm a little concerned.
00:08:38
Speaker
Oh, well, it'll be fun regardless. ah Okay, so you told us a little bit about your early career trajectory, but I want to ask you specifically about Rutgers Law and and what brought you to Rutgers. what What attracted you to this place, this institution?
00:08:56
Speaker
Of course, yeah. So as i alluded to before, you know i had the opportunity to work at standalone law school in New York City and a private law school in the Philadelphia area. And as someone who sort of reaped the rewards of a public education system for most of my life, I was now really excited about the opportunity to play a part in a flagship institution with a truly remarkable faculty that boasts some of the brightest minds and leading scholars in the country with one of the biggest clinical programs and the one of the best legal writing programs that and was also affordable and ingrained into the community. So it was a lot of the mission and values that truly drew me to Rutgers and made this a place that I wanted to call my next home for several years. um And then outside of that, in terms of my own development and growth, I felt that Rutgers would provide a challenge that I was not accustomed to. This is a school that's unique in the fact that there's only three law schools in the country that I'm aware of that have two separate campus locations. So we have two campus locations, three different programs and a full-time, a part-time and a foreign lawyers program. and two different tuition rates based on residency. So, You know, we have data that gets, of course, reported out as one law school, but it still very much matters at the individual campus level. And I feel like it was a challenge that I was really excited to tackle at a school that I was really enamored with its admission. So with its particular mission. So for me, this seemed like a no-brainer in
Qualities Valued in Candidates
00:10:31
Speaker
deciding to apply. i was only nervous if I would be able to live up to the expectations um that not just that the faculty and the administrators would have of me, But the expectations I set for myself being at a state school with such a strong mission and really dedicated to access and affordability that I would not screw things up.
00:10:52
Speaker
And for me so far, I think we've hopefully been doing a good enough job, although I know there's still more work to be done and more things that we can be doing to really live up to, i think, what we can the the kind of law school that we can eventually become.
00:11:09
Speaker
Well, I can confirm that you have not screwed things up. We're so lucky to have you, Matt. And and you you live and breathe our mission on a day-to-day basis. And that's something that i truly appreciate. ah OK, so if you're talking to applicants, which I know you do a lot of, what advice would you give someone who is considering law school?
00:11:30
Speaker
yeah there are I do not want this to be an hour, so I'm going to do my best to keep it short. The biggest thing i will say is to have them do their due diligence. you know This is a significant investment um in their future as well as their time and their money.
00:11:47
Speaker
And I often say you should not spend more time researching a car than you would a law school, given that it is significantly more
Financial Aid Insights
00:11:54
Speaker
expensive and it something that will only add value over time rather than depreciate. So the things that you can do upfront, especially if you don't come from a family of attorneys or if you've never interned or worked in some type of legal organization, is to reach out to alumni at your alma mater, um people who are lawyers or work in a legal profession.
00:12:18
Speaker
You can connect with them on LinkedIn. Just search for the term lawyer or the job lawyer and type in your school's alma mater. or whatever it may be. And you'll see a litany of different attorneys who graduated from your undergrad that you can connect with.
00:12:31
Speaker
And then from there, you can find out what their life is like on a day-to-day basis, what some of the substantive work that they do throughout a year, and really discover what the profession is about. And then from there, you have a better idea as the types of career paths that exist.
00:12:46
Speaker
You know, I'm someone who's a big proponent of the phrase, like, we don't know what we don't know. And how do you know what you want to become until you learn what you can become? And I think by going on these fact-finding missions, if you don't have the opportunity to get that firsthand experience, can make you understand if this is something that you want to do or don't want to do.
00:13:06
Speaker
And then from there, you can really discover different pathways out there. So for me, like when I was growing up, I knew my mom was a teacher. I could become a teacher because she was one and I had teachers. But outside of that, the idea of becoming an attorney or someone who worked in the corporate world for me, was similar to becoming an astronaut. Like, these are things that exist. Yes, these are jobs that I've seen in TVs and movies, but they're not really jobs for people from my community, right? So I think by, one, getting exposure, it opens up the realm of possibility for yourself as to the things that you can become. And then outside of that, you know, just research the programs and the faculty. You can research their clinics, their centers, and look at the outcomes and visit. And I think that
00:13:53
Speaker
You know, those things in themselves will really help you understand um if law school is a particular thing that you want to pursue in the future and then help you make a better decision as ah not just if you want to go to law school, but maybe where you want to apply to law school in the future.
Holistic Admissions Process
00:14:09
Speaker
Great. that's I'm sure that is so helpful to prospective applicants out there. ah So I want to ask you about mistakes that so people sometimes make. What do what would you say are the top three mistakes that people make when applying to law school?
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah, I would say the biggest one, especially nowadays, and I know we might talk about this a little bit later, is the timeline in which one applies to schools. And I think that a lot of students don't understand that the majority of law schools out there engage in what's called a rolling admissions. So they'll start awarding admission offers early in the fall. Maybe some will do it or right when they get back in the new year, but they'll continue to award admission offers until their class is filled.
00:14:55
Speaker
And then that usually provides an advantage to those who apply quote unquote earlier in the process. So when individuals are looking to apply later, it puts them at a disadvantage because there might not be as many seats available and there might not be as much scholarship of money available later in the process. So sometimes people will see a school's application deadline and think, if I apply to the deadline, by the deadline, I'm fine. But it's not like credit cards where, for me, I'm not paying a credit card until that thing is due. Like, if you're waiting in law school to apply by the deadline, you're putting yourself at a severe disadvantage. So I think that, you know, again, the data guy that I am, if you look at the timeline in which the majority of admission offers are going out for most law schools, around three quarters of all admission offers are going out between December and February. So people who look to apply later put themselves at a real disadvantage to not just be competitive for admission, but also to get financial aid that will help them afford to ah go to that school.
00:15:56
Speaker
So that's the big one that I see more often than not. The other thing I see is people do not consider how the individual components fit in to the larger context of their applications. They will put a lot of time and effort to make sure that they have the best personal statement possible, the best resume possible, the best you know academics, the great letters of recommendation, but not how these fit into the larger narrative that they're trying to communicate to an admissions committee.
00:16:26
Speaker
One of the ways in which I tell students this all the time is that I will get letter or I will get personal statements and they will say, ever since I was six years old, I wanted to be a voice for the voiceless and help the helpless. And i wanted to be engaged with my community to make an impact.
00:16:43
Speaker
And they said this when they were six and now they're applying and they're 26 years old. And then after I review the personal statement, I go to the resume and I'm six years old, this person knew what they want to do. God bless. I, that was not something I knew at six years old. I get to the resume and No community service, no volunteerism, no engagement on campus, nothing that shows that this person who is so community driven and minded, who wanted to make an impact, ever took the effort to try to do so over the next 20 years of their life.
Personalized Approach at Rutgers
00:17:10
Speaker
And it makes me wonder how much are they going to want when they get to law school to kick the can down the road?
00:17:17
Speaker
What is stopping you? from making an impact in your community, from getting involved. So for me, it's about how the different components synergize with one another tell a cohesive narrative, really making sure that the personal what you're writing in your personal statement is potentially backed up by either your professional, personal, or academic experiences, and then are verified by what your letters of recommendation are saying about you. So that's a mistake that happens as well.
00:17:45
Speaker
And then the other thing is that individuals will often, what I call legal wash their resumes. They'll feel that they only want to put in on their resume the white collar experiences that they had or legal experiences that they have and they'll leave off the fact that they worked at Starbucks or were a server or worked at McDonald's or some other service industry position because they feel like, oh, it's not professional. Therefore, they don't want include on the resume. And I think they do that to the disservice because often when we're looking at your resume, we're trying to have a good one understanding of what you're doing with your time.
00:18:24
Speaker
So generally speaking, when I'm looking at applications, I have your transcript open on one page on one screen. And then I have your resume open on another if you're someone that's applying not that far removed from undergrad. And I'm trying to see how you're able to perform academically while juggling other responsibilities. So if you leave off those responsibilities, it may not really reveal how really impressive your performance is while also doing other items. The other thing is that those skills that you learn in service industry positions are transferable to the practice of law
00:18:57
Speaker
if you think that being a server and dealing with difficult customers or dealing with a quote unquote Karen at a Starbucks, who's being super aggressive because you messed up their cold brew, uh, with sweet cream, like order, like you're not gonna always get a client that you particularly love or are fond of, but that is your job and the oath that you take to give them the best advocacy possible. So sometimes you have to really practice great customer service, you know, um,
00:19:27
Speaker
Just great have a great client skills when you become an attorney. And those things that you've learned through these other service industry three positions can be a great benefit. So I think do not legal wash your resume.
00:19:40
Speaker
Put what the experiences that you've been able to garner and also put some bullet points to provide context as to what you did in those roles. So for me, I would say those are the top three.
00:19:51
Speaker
That is fantastic. Super helpful. Thanks, Matt. And what What qualities or experiences do you think set candidates apart, at least from your perspective, looking at candidates who are applying to Rutgers Law School? What what is impressive to you?
00:20:08
Speaker
Yeah, for me, it it truly is, you know, the some of the things I just echoed a moment a moment prior, time management, work ethic, grit, leadership. Those are things that really indicate to me that more than just being able to be successful academically, but you're going to you're going to be someone who's involved in the law school. You're going to be someone who's able to perform well while also maybe getting involved with a journal, getting involved on a trial team, getting involved in doing pro bono work during your time in school, whether be in your first, second, third, or fourth year if you're a part-time student. So having those leadership, time management, and work ethic you know, skills that I can infer through your application are things that really tell me that you're going to be a great Rutgers Law student because our students are involved.
00:20:56
Speaker
I sometimes CC'd on maybe just a portion of the number of emails that Dean Vaughn gets from the student body. And it is impressive to see um and exhausting to some extent how involved that they are and how much they do care about the community that they call home during your time here. So I think that those reveal to me who's going to be a really strong candidate for Rutgers Law School. And then the other thing for me is character and moral compass. Like those are things I always try to ascertain when reading an application. And I make jokes to candidates all the time and that in my role, I do my best to not contribute to the lawyer jokes that do exist in this country. I really care about character. And I i really want to make sure that at the end of the day, regardless of what you decide that you want to do with your law degree, whether you want to go into public service,
Diversity and Accessibility Efforts
00:21:48
Speaker
corporate law, environmental, public interest, you name it, anything in between, I care that you care about others. And I care that, for me, when I think about you as an attorney in the future, I want to believe that your interns, that your paralegals, the people that work with you, are not just going to look up to you because of your tangible successes, because of the cases that you win or the money that you bring into a firm, but because of you know how you represent yourself and how you treat them. So that one day when they're saying, oh man, I really want to be like you, where did you go to law school? That they'll want to follow in your footsteps because they'll understand that this law school produced an incredible attorney that really motivated them and inspired them down in this profession. So I know that sounds incredibly hokey, but it really does come from the heart because I spend most of my time with the students and I care about their perception and also just their experience. And I want to make sure that um bringing in people that they can be proud to be called not just colleagues, but future alumni when they do graduate from the school.
00:22:58
Speaker
That's fantastic.
Trends in Law School Applications
00:22:59
Speaker
I i know that all the work that you put into building this community, our community, and how thoughtful you are about it. And it's one of the things that makes the Rutgers Law School community so special. ah So i appreciate I appreciate your thoughtful approach to that.
00:23:15
Speaker
ah what What should applicants know about financial aid and scholarship opportunities at Rutgers Law? And I'm going to add to that, particularly in this new federal loan cap environment where we know that based on um new recent legislation that that there are loan caps that are going to affect ah professional students. So if you could talk about that a little bit, that would be great.
00:23:41
Speaker
Sure. So, At Rutgers, and this is true for the majority of law schools out there, not all of them, but many law schools, there is no separate application that you have to submit for consideration of incoming scholarships. Some schools call them ah merit-based scholarships. Some call them a recruitment scholarships. But in general, everyone who's admitted is automatically considered for scholarships at the time of admission. And then all of our scholarships at Rutgers are guaranteed.
00:24:12
Speaker
There are a number of schools out there, more prominent in the tri-state region, that offer conditional-based scholarships that are based upon your rank or your GPA that say if you that have a certain GPA, you have to maintain a certain GPA or class rank to hold on to your scholarship. but if And if you don't, you can lose it. At Rutgers, They're guaranteed. So regardless if you're top of your class or close to the bottom of your class, you hold on to that aid because we understand it's so critical for the reasons that made you select certain schools, but also for your viability to keep attending that school um to have that scholarship. And then the other things that are important to know are just want to do the math on tuition.
00:24:54
Speaker
This happens every year. you have to We have one of the most affordable tuition rates in the country, especially if you're an in-state student in New Jersey, and even if you're not as an out-of-state candidate.
00:25:05
Speaker
Our in-state tuition is about $40,000 plus thousand dollars less than most other schools in the Northeast. Our out-of-state tuition is just about $20,000 to $25,000 less than most other schools in the Northeast. So,
00:25:21
Speaker
Often you can get scholarships or from different schools and they can seem high. You can get a $30,000 scholarship from another school and you can get $2,000 from Rutgers. And yet our tuition after the end of it will still leave you with about $15,000 in the positive compared to other schools. So regardless of where you're looking to apply, whether you're just listening to this podcast because you're a fan of Dean Bond, or you want to you know come to Rutgers, I think it's important to just do the math because you should really understand what the implications of a school's tuition is, a school's scholarship is, but also, as Dean Baum was alluding to, the federal loans that you may be eligible for.
00:26:03
Speaker
So after the one big beautiful bill, the budget reconciliation bill, federal loan funding post July 2026, is going to be capped at $50,000 per year.
00:26:16
Speaker
Now, if you look at not just tuition for
Hopes for Rutgers Graduates
00:26:20
Speaker
most schools, but also their cost of living in that area, and look at the overall cost of attendance, most schools in the New York City metropolitan area are over $100,000 a year in cost of attendance. Most in the Philadelphia marketplace are going to be close to $90,000 year. So unless you're getting a significantly large scholarship at a particular institution, you might need to borrow private loans to help fund your education.
00:26:48
Speaker
And that can be difficult because one. Private loans don't have the same protections as federal loans. They don't have the same repayment terms. They have typically higher interest rates. You can't consolidate them. If you are thinking about into going to public service, they don't qualify for the public service loan forgiveness program. So it can be particularly challenging. so It's important to know what you what you're actually have to pay to afford to go to that law school, not just pay their tuition, but afford to live. So be mindful of that. And Rutgers does its best, not just in terms of providing aid, but also trying to make the entry point a lot lower with respect to other schools in our in our region. And on top of that, we also provide a lot of additional aid later.
00:27:34
Speaker
So we have an institutional scholarship application where we give out hundreds of thousands of dollars more every year to continuing students. We have a generous loan repayment assistance program that can provide up to $25,000 over the course of five years to help you pay down debt if you go into qualifying areas of public service or government work.
00:27:53
Speaker
We have a MEDAS Fellow program where You know, if you are thinking about working over the summer in qualifying areas of public interest or public service, you can get stipends of up to six thousand dollars if they are not paying you. Right. So I think Rutgers is continuously committed to ensure that we're not just providing access into this profession, but making sure it's a profession that is affordable so that when you graduate, your loan indebtedness is significantly lower, which will open up the options that you can pursue post-graduation. Because the more debt that you take on, the fewer options that you may have in terms of what you can pursue. Because more than just pursuing what you're passionate about, sometimes you have to think about what pays, right? So for us, I think that we provide
00:28:39
Speaker
One, an affordable tuition rate, two, a generous ah number of scholarships, both at the time of admission and after admission. And then not only repayment programs, but public interest stipends, in addition to bar support grants after you graduate to help you not have to work as much to when you're studying for the bar exam. So that was a lot, but that's a lot of what Rutgers is doing for our students and our graduates. to help them pursue the different career paths that they want to and not necessarily the
Perseverance and Self-Worth in Applications
00:29:10
Speaker
ones that they need to.
00:29:12
Speaker
That's great advice. And I appreciate you highlighting the kinds of considerations that people should be thinking about in making this decision. ah Let me ask you if you have ah a particular issue that that you feel like is a misconception about the law school admissions process that you wanna just clear up for the record right now today Yeah, the biggest one, and I hear, i just was at an event this week with Phi Alpha Delta on our New Brunswick campus, and often students think they're just numbers.
00:29:43
Speaker
The whole process can make them feel reduced down to just a standardized test score in their academic history. And I just want you to know that is not the case. You know, every single aspect of your application, every grade from every semester, every year that you've worked, um all of the letters of recommendation that you submit, that pesky LSAT argumentative writing sample, all of that stuff's reviewed. The crow's feet on my face, my degrading vision is an indication that every single word is being read in your application. So you are a person, everything is reviewed. And when we make those admissions decisions, it's not just on the basis of two numbers. Similarly for financial aid, at least at Rutgers, We're also evaluating about seven other factors outside of just the numbers that you provide. So please know that you are much more than those two things, which is why when we call students to let them know that they're remitted, and we tell them exactly why that they were remitted. And it's never, hey, it's your LSAT, your GPA. It's always because of the other things that you provided in your application that we're making you aware of because we understand this process is opaque.
00:30:55
Speaker
We understand it can feel dehumanizing. It can feel like an emotional rollercoaster. And we just want to make sure that you understand that you were seen in the process when we were reviewing your application. I love it. and And I've told you this before. I love the fact that that you call our our ah applicants and and let them know that they've been admitted and talk to them about any questions they might have at that point. But it's fantastic. And it's it's emblematic of of the kind
Conclusion and Further Information
00:31:23
Speaker
of... um student-centered approach that that I think we're we're really trying to achieve and hopefully hopefully achieving here at Rutgers.
00:31:32
Speaker
Okay, so I'm gonna turn to something fun for a second. ah What about a legal drama or a book about the law that that you love that's captured your attention? Is there anything you can share with us?
00:31:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the one that... You're too young for LA Law or any of those old ones, right? But but ah tell me tell me what sparks your interest. yeah One of my close friends that is a director of admissions at another law school was inspired by LA Law. And I make fun of his age quite often. So he's going to be very upset if he listens to this podcast. And now you just mentioned that. So thank you so much for doing that. um Outside of that, one that...
00:32:17
Speaker
One that maybe speaks to the time, but no longer, in my opinion, is directly applicable and misses the mark quite a bit as one L of a ride. I think that is very different um when it came out in, I believe it, i forget if it was the 70s, but it is not the the type of communities that exist at law schools across the country anymore. This paper chase model where people are ripping pages out of your book, breaking pencils. I think A lot of schools, especially here at Rutgers, invest a lot of time, effort and energy into making sure that their communities are ones that uplift each other. More of a rising tide mantra rather than a crab bucket mentality where you have to pull someone down to advance yourself. And one that just inspires me um is Just Mercy. You know, I read it as a book. I saw it as a movie. And if Michael B. Jordan can inspire you, I'm not sure who can. So for me, I would say Dust Mercy is the one that kind of hits the mark and doesn't miss it.
00:33:18
Speaker
Yeah, I could not agree more. I love the book. ah Okay. Tell me about the best part of your job. what do What do you love about coming to work every day? All right. this I mean, we kind of touched upon it, so this is going to be redundant. So I do apologize in advance. But it is, i mean, for bar none, it's the admission phone calls, you know,
00:33:37
Speaker
Well, like I just mentioned, applicants often can feel pressure from a young age to live up to expectations, to be involved, to excel academically, and constantly do more. And we live in a world of social media where it's far too easy to be unfairly critical or cruel to others, leading someone to question their true value. And you combine this with an admissions process that is, you know, opaque and they can often feel a student, ah make a student feel reduced down to two numbers. And it's not hard to imagine that an admission cycle can cause a ton of anxiety and cause someone to question their worth. And for me, I love calling students not only grant them admission, but to let them know, yes, the many different reasons that why they're admitted, but to remind them of the amazing things that they accomplished, the the academic and athletic achievements, the
00:34:27
Speaker
impressive work experience, their leadership, their service, and more. And I do it not only because I think we should, but to make sure that the applicant knows that they are a person, that their words in their essays, the letters of recommendation submitted, the articles they wrote for their school newspaper in their junior year that we found and reviewed, that all of it matters and was taken into consideration and not just those two numbers I mentioned before. And it's genuinely not about encouraging them to attend Rutgers, although we, of course, would love to have them here.
00:34:57
Speaker
But it's about ensuring that they have some closure, that those weeks, those months spent crafting and revising their essays, the months spent preparing for the LSAT, the years spent gaining experience and building their resume all mattered. So that at the end of the day, that they can understand that what we found impressive was more than likely what other schools did too.
00:35:20
Speaker
But we just wanted to reciprocate their efforts to even a small extent by calling them to let them know. it's, it's fantastic. And it, it, it begins establishing that, that really human connection with, with our incoming class and our students. Um, so I think it's, it's absolutely invaluable.
00:35:39
Speaker
All right. Now the flip side of that, what's the biggest challenge that you face? Uh, choosing, choosing at the time, you know ah you know, at the time of this recording, our application volume is up 107% compared to two years ago and up over 43% compared to last year. And i think it's really difficult because when your applications increase, the size of your school does not, you know, there's still the same number of seats um that the school has to to fill. And I think the difficult part is you understand that you have to pass up on individualism who have every likelihood of being successful at your school, who you know could be successful, will be a great fit, pass the bar, become great attorneys and the future great alumni. But for me, that's the hardest part. And looking at someone and saying no when I know so they could be successful.
00:36:39
Speaker
But that's i that's the nature of the beast. And I try to tell students that law school admissions is like your first year of law school. And often, you're graded on a curve. And it's not necessarily how amazing your final exam is, but how amazing your final exam is with respect to everyone else in that class.
00:36:57
Speaker
In law school admissions, it's not just how amazing your application is, but how amazing it is with respect to everyone else who's applying. And then no matter how great you are or how good you are and how strong your application is,
00:37:09
Speaker
depending upon the volume of applications that a school gets, they have to make really difficult choices and decisions about who gets em admitted and who doesn't. So for me, that's a thing that keeps me up at night sometimes. But those individuals that do keep me up, I do track. And I really hope that I i follow them on LinkedIn. And I hope that they have great careers, even if it's not at Rutgers.
00:37:32
Speaker
I have no doubt. That's fantastic. I love i love that you have an ongoing interest in in their success. That does not surprise me one bit. Well, this year, as you know, we welcomed the largest joint incoming class of nearly 500 full-time and part-time students.
00:37:48
Speaker
A remarkable 91% of 1Ls are first-generation students, and nearly half are students of color, what What steps are you taking, you and your whole team, what steps are you taking to make legal education more accessible and inclusive?
00:38:07
Speaker
This is one of the many reasons why i love working here at Rutgers, is that the law school doesn't view this as ah an admissions problem to solve.
00:38:18
Speaker
From our remarkable minority student program under the leadership of Dean Douglas and Dean Dawkins to our alumni who spread the Rutgers gospel, you know, to the outpouring of support from our faculty who help with programming, we have created several pipeline programs to ensure that we are increasing the number of applicants from historically underrepresented backgrounds.
00:38:43
Speaker
And by educating and empowering these same students, we help ensure that they are better prepared for the admissions process and are aware of the importance of timelines. And we do what we can to prevent a massive backslide in the wake of the Students for Fair Admission SCOTUS ruling that did happen back in June of 2023. So we host programming, workshops, affinity group panels, webinars, information sessions, and more to make sure that students understand that we are a law school that cares as much about our students' academic and professional well-being as we do their personal well-being.
00:39:21
Speaker
And then in the end, we are fortunate to be a more affordable school given our significantly lower tuition rates that also happens to be in incredibly diverse communities. And as such, while my team and the members of our Rutgers Law Committee certainly do a lot of work on this front, it would be not naive of me to now acknowledge that we are fortunate to be a part of the broader communities that we're in, not just in the Newark and Camden locations, but a part of the Rutgers-Camden and Rutgers-Newark university systems that are so supportive of the work that we do.
00:39:53
Speaker
And I often say that if we're going to be a part of a community, we should be for the community, whether that is seen through the work on the admissions front or the laudable work of our outstanding clinics. But I genuinely believe that Rutgers is a school that cares. And I know that's something that's echoed by you, Dean Bond, and every opportunity that you have to speak with prospective students or at admitted student events. And it's one of the things that reinforces why i know at Rutgers this is going to be something that we'll continue to have progress in because it's not just viewed through the lens of admissions, but it's viewed more holistically as part of an entire school structure and our mission that makes it something that enables us to be so successful on the recruitment front in the admission side.
00:40:40
Speaker
Absolutely. You're right. It's a core part of our mission and and it's it's in our institutional DNA, something that I know both you and I are very proud of. ah Let me ask you about, you mentioned earlier applications being up. I know this is true nationwide. What do you think is driving the increase in applications nationwide?
00:41:02
Speaker
Yeah. So, i mean, it's it's a number of different factors, I imagine. And i know there's ah a number of different individuals, consulting groups, schools that have different opinions. I think some of the biggest ones that we can't avoid um looking at are the difficult job market for entry-level positions.
00:41:20
Speaker
ah at various recruitment events that I've been at throughout the year, from California all the way down to Florida and everywhere in between. You know, I've heard from sophomores, juniors, seniors having difficult times finding internships, job placement, post-graduation, and that usually indicates more people that want to pursue an advanced degree.
00:41:40
Speaker
So they usually would go into graduate programs, law school, and because of cuts from the federal administration and various government sectors, in addition to PhD programs across the country.
00:41:52
Speaker
Others are seeking different types of terminal degrees, which I also think has increased the application volume to law school. with government Under DOGE, there was a lot of government workers that were cut and released, which is now leading them to go back and pursue advanced degrees.
00:42:07
Speaker
Changes in remote policies across the country in different types of roles have led to an uptick of people who now are going back to school. i know just last year we saw a big uptick and registered patent agents applying to law school due to some of the changes at the USPTO. um And then often, you know, national politics ah will often lead people during election years or just during heightened political turmoil into law school to want to be a part of the change that they seek. So I think for us, that's why we see nationwide a big uptick in law school applications. And then for Rutgers, we have outpaced that
00:42:46
Speaker
by about twofold this year so far in having a surge of just over 43% applications between the 20% application volume increase that's happening nationally.
00:42:58
Speaker
That is remarkable. and And it is due, I'm sure, in no small part to to you and your team and the recruitment efforts that that you're engaged in. ah What Let me move you to thinking about the future. What, what are your hopes and dreams for, for this next generation of legal professor professionals who will graduate from Rutgers law school? What do you, what do you hope for that generation of lawyers?
00:43:28
Speaker
Oh man, this is really, is really pie in the sky stuff. I love it. This is, it's so interesting because, you know, um, At Rutgers last year, thanks thanks to you giving the blessing, we were able to start an interview program at Rutgers.
00:43:43
Speaker
One of the questions I will often ask is um to to the applicants I'm interviewing is what they see themselves doing you know three to four years down the line when they graduate from law school, when they grab their diploma and pass the bar exam. And then they'll they'll say what they say. and then I ask them to think 50 years into the future.
00:44:01
Speaker
when they're hopefully you know retired and get to sit back and relax and reflect, not just on their careers, but their lives. And they get to think about, yes, you know the work that they've been able to do and the the accomplishments that they've been able to earn, but also about the relationships that they've been able to form with clients and and colleagues and family members, friends and loved ones. And I ask them you know if they've ever thought about what they want this all to be for, what they want to be thought of or known for, and like what they want the legacy of their life to be when all of this is said and done.
00:44:30
Speaker
And it always catches them by surprise, which is kind of the purpose. But I want them to think beyond, you know, the job that they get paid for, but the impact that they can have outside of their nine to five or if they're in a large firm, nine to nine. You know, I want them to think about, you know, what they want to do. And for me, it's important because I want them to think about the impact that they can have on those around them and so that they can begin making inroads one day to realize that dream.
00:44:58
Speaker
I often think that if you can think into the future, if you can if you can create a goal for yourself, a light post, you can start forging a path to get there. But often if you're not thinking about the future and thinking about the impact that you want, like then it's really difficult to make sort of some type of plan um as to how you're going to or what you want to achieve, right? So I want students to think early about the impact that they want to have so that that can be something that they realize one day. So for me, the hope that I have is that our graduates just are individuals who have incredible character that want to help out those around them, that lead by principle and by example, that motivates and inspires others to want to enter in this profession, because it is a noble profession and we see attacks on it every day. But I think if you bring in principled, ethical, moral attorneys, then you'll leave the
00:45:57
Speaker
place in a much better place than when they found it. So for me, I want our graduates to create a think about a legacy that they want, and then to pursue that, not just once they graduate, but starting when they get here on day one at orientation for Rutgers.
00:46:13
Speaker
Those are deep and profound questions that, that I think we should all be asking ourselves, but I'm glad that, that you're raising them in the context of our prospective students. It, As you pointed out, it also gives our students a guidepost and a reminder of what what it was that was motivating them to to think about law school in the first place. So that's that's really important.
00:46:36
Speaker
we are We are at time, Matt. So I want to ask you one final question, and that is, is there anything else you would like to add before we go today? um I guess if you are listening to this and you're going through the process of applying to law school, if you submitted your applications and are awaiting decisions, or if you're thinking about applying in the future, you know some of the things i've I've mentioned today will indicate how much we as an admissions committee and we as a law school care about you as candidates. And the biggest thing I can say as we're facing one of the most competitive admission cycles in the country, I often say, please do not put personal value on the decisions that you get. you know Whether you get denied or waitlisted or admitted, Try not to be as emotionally invested as possible into those decisions because as I mentioned before, receiving a deny, receiving a waitlist is not a school telling you necessarily that you can't be successful, that you cannot become a great attorney, that you would not be an outstanding representative of their institution.
00:47:41
Speaker
We all have very difficult decisions that we have to make, um you included, once you get admitted to different schools. So the only thing I would love for you to come away with this is understanding is that, you know, the decisions that you get do not determine your value, um do not determine your future. So just maintain your why and your sense of self as you go through a process that can feel, um as I mentioned before, like an emotional roller coaster. And that's for me the biggest takeaway and thing I like to add to leave candidates with if you are someone who's going to be applying to law school now or or later.
00:48:17
Speaker
Excellent, excellent advice. and And words to live by, for sure. Thanks so much for that, Matt. and And thanks for sitting down and talking with me today. i really appreciate it. And I know that our listeners have learned a lot about the process generally and and more about Rutgers Law as well. So thanks for joining me. Thank you. I'm going to go back to reading applications for the next eight hours. Sounds good. Thanks, Matt.
00:48:41
Speaker
Thank you. The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large nationally known university with a personal small campus experience.
00:49:00
Speaker
Learn more by visiting us at law.rutgers.edu.