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S6E9: RICAP, Rutgers' Rapid Response Program, and Protecting International Students
26 Plays1 hour ago
Rutgers Law School Professor David Noll guest hosts this special conversation with Dean Johanna Bond; Professor Randi Mandelbaum, Associate Dean for Clinical Education at Rutgers Law School–Newark; and Jason Hernandez, Director of the Rutgers Immigrant Community Assistance Project (RICAP). The group discusses the some of the latest concerns facing international students, resources available to them through RICAP, and the formation of the rapid response team that is providing aid to students encountering emergency immigration circumstances. You can read more about RICAP here.
If you are a Rutgers student who has immigration concerns, we encourage you to contact RICAP. To request an appointment or to learn more about RICAP, please email RICAP-info@law.rutgers.edu or call 856-225-6568.
UPDATE: The Trump administration has reversed course on student visa cancellations, but the need for litigation is still extant.
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The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Power of Attorney'
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to Anthem Award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and Dean of the Law School, Joanna Bond.
Rutgers' New Program for International Students
00:00:24
Speaker
Hi, this is Professor David Noll, and you're listening to the Power of Attorney podcast from Rutgers Law School. I'm guest hosting this special episode because our usual host, Dean Joanna Bond, is in the guest seat to talk about a new program that Rutgers University has started to provide emergency legal assistance to international students and the Rutgers community.
00:00:43
Speaker
I'm joined now by Dean Bond, along with Professor Randy Mandelbaum, the Associate Dean for Clinical Education in Newark, as well as Jason Hernandez, Director of Rutgers Immigrant Community Assistance Project, or RICAP.
00:00:57
Speaker
Welcome to all of you, and thanks for being here. Thanks so much, David. Thank you. Thank you. Joanna, let me start with you.
Challenges Faced by International Students
00:01:03
Speaker
For people who might not follow the news closely, what is happening with international students at US universities these days?
00:01:13
Speaker
Unfortunately, David, international students are being targeted for deportation or termination of their student visas, which makes them subject to deportation. and And in some cases, international students have been targeted specifically for participating in constitutionally protected activities like protest activities.
00:01:32
Speaker
um And of course, there's the the well-known example of Mahmoud Khalil, who is a lawful permanent resident in the United States. and and a Columbia University student activist who was arrested on March 8th by immigration authorities and and transferred to a detention facility in Louisiana.
00:01:51
Speaker
And he's his is just one case. There have been many, many cases of students being picked up by immigration authorities, sometimes in dramatic fashion and held in custody. And of course, students are terrified as a result. um Many don't want to leave the country even for a home visit for fear that they'll be arrested or or not allowed back in this country to finish their studies.
00:02:11
Speaker
And so there is this this. Tragic climate of fear for international students that that really flies in the face of this country's ah democratic values and commitment to due process and justice um to the detriment of individual students, but also to the detriment of higher ed as a whole.
00:02:30
Speaker
Jason, I know you've been working on many of these
Cases and Consequences of Visa Issues
00:02:33
Speaker
cases. um When we think about the students who are being targeted, ah are these folks who have engaged in serious misconduct? Have they broken university rules or been charged with crimes or things like that?
00:02:47
Speaker
So I can't speak for the whole nation, but I can say at Rutgers University, all of the students that had their SEVIS records terminated were all in good standing at the university or graduated successfully from the university.
00:03:00
Speaker
um Also, you know, they were in compliance, maintaining compliance with their F1 status, right? So the Code of Federal Regulations outlines certain requirements that every F1 visa holder needs to comply with while they're in the United States.
00:03:14
Speaker
um And there is no reason under those regulations why any of these students would have had their status terminated. Also, none of them have engaged in any activity that would render them removable from the United States. So really, I mean, the the short answer is no.
00:03:29
Speaker
um And so that's really what we what we're litigating and in this case. Joanna, you mentioned that some of these students appear to be targeted for engaging in lawful activities. What are some examples of that? What are what are folks doing to draw the attention of the immigration agencies?
00:03:46
Speaker
Well, unfortunately, um in the case of of Mahmoud Khalil, he was a an activist, a student activist at Columbia, engaged in, as I mentioned, constitutionally protected activity. But but specifically in his case, he was ah engaged in pro-Palestinian protests, which has now, I think, really become the focus of of a lot of the ah targeting of students and student activists in particular.
00:04:14
Speaker
So I think we've seen that at a number of universities for students who were involved in protests or allegedly involved in protest in some cases. In some cases, there was actually no protest activity, um but students were targeted nevertheless.
00:04:29
Speaker
So, Jason, you know, I know you can't talk about specific cases because of privacy concerns, but in general, could you speak to what it's like to be an international student and to have your visa revoked or to be threatened with deportation?
00:04:43
Speaker
Sure. So I think sort of to draw a distinction between Mahmoud Khalil case and sort of these cases that revolve around you know, protected speech, I think part of what a lot of the students across the country and at Rutgers are experiencing is just confusion because for many of the students who had their SEVIS records terminated, they have not engaged in, you know, protests or, or you know, published ah public opinions on social media.
00:05:10
Speaker
And so it was unclear why so many of these records were terminated in SEVIS. um And so I think for so many of the students on our campus, there's a fear, right, that they don't know why they've been identified, why they're being targeted.
00:05:22
Speaker
um For many of them, right, they did not have to come to the United States to study. ah They were drawn to Rutgers specifically because it's a really, you know, like nationally renowned or an internationally renowned research institution.
00:05:35
Speaker
um And they have relied on sort of the regulations that are issued by the United States that pertain to study in the United States, have complied with those regulations, are engaged with Rutgers and really, you know, research that is of national importance, um you know, that is, you know, research related to you know, cancer and so many other things. But anyway, the point is that they don't know, right, whether they'll be able to continue or whether they won't. And so there's so much uncertainty for them professionally.
00:06:03
Speaker
There's so much uncertainty for them academically. And I'm sure Dean Bond can speak to what the university has done and how this affects the university. But for them, they're just feeling this great sense of uncertainty and they don't know if we can help them, right? Even as lawyers, right, we we can file on their behalves and, you know, say that their Fifth Amendment due process, you know, constitutional protections have been violated or that the government has violated the Administrative Procedures Act.
00:06:29
Speaker
But whether we will succeed, right, is still uncertain. And so they live every day not knowing whether the last one, two, five years that they've dedicated to this research or this professional development will mean anything, right? Or whether they'll be able to continue to work after they graduate in the United States on something called app optional practical training. So I think it's just really disillusioning and also just spells a lot of uncertainty for their futures generally.
SEVIS System and Its Impact on Students
00:06:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And these students are at risk of of being detained or deported so they they're afraid to leave their home many of them were working while they were on their f1 visas and now they cannot so even things about you know paying rent and buying food is an issue and randy i wonder if you could speak to you know sort of the actual experience of what it's like to be one of these students are are they receiving a fair opportunity
00:07:21
Speaker
to challenge the suspension or the revocation of a visa? is Is this something that, you know, you're allowed to go to court to present arguments about? So, I mean, fortunately, and and and Dean Bond will say more about it, I think in a minute, the Rutgers students are being given an opportunity and they're what we did um file a lawsuit earlier this week challenging the service terminations.
00:07:45
Speaker
um and seeking a a temporary restraining order. But so many students around the country are at their wit's end and don't have the opportunity to have, you know, lawyer can't afford legal assistance and are are really left, you know, in a state of confusion and fear and without much recourse.
00:08:08
Speaker
I mean, estimates are there's upwards of somewhere between 1,600 and 2,000 students around the country whose visas have been revoked, you know, some for the the political speech um issues that Dean Bond has mentioned, but many, you know, but for for seemingly very random reasons, um you know, they they they are in good standing and there's nothing in their records that would lead to their, you know, give cause for their termination.
00:08:38
Speaker
so So walk us through it. If you're one of these students, um you know, whose visa is, ah you know, revoked all of a sudden, how do you find out about that? but what's What's that like to be a student in that position?
00:08:51
Speaker
So, I mean, the interesting thing is the students actually are not being notified by the by the Department of Homeland Security or the State Department. um The only way they're finding out is because universities like Rutgers are checking the service system.
00:09:08
Speaker
Rutgers is checking in many universities twice a day, um and they're seeing that the termination has occurred. um So there may ah be students whose universities are not doing that that don't even know um that they're at risk.
00:09:23
Speaker
um But, you know, one of the the many concerns about what's going on is is this lack of notice, um that that they there has been no notification of the fact that that their visas have been revoked.
00:09:36
Speaker
and And just for folks who aren't immigration law professionals, what is SEVIS? What's the SEVIS system that you're talking about? I'm happy to take that question. um so When a student applies to study in the United States, but they go through an application process to obtain a student visa.
00:09:55
Speaker
When they then enter the United States at the court of entry, that's when they're sort of granted their student status. And then the SEVIS system is the mean by which sort of all of the stakeholders track whether a student maintains compliance with the F regulations ah you know and that's all recorded in SEBAS. So every university that is certified to um you know report on international students attending their institutions has access to SEBAS to report compliance.
00:10:27
Speaker
And then after students graduate, they report their own compliance when they're working on OPT by recording where they're working. And so the SEBAS system really is just like um a data management system. But what's so critical about it is that You know, SEVIS also is the means by which DSOs can publish proof that a student has status through an I-20.
00:10:47
Speaker
And when you terminate someone's record, they don't have the ability to print or produce the proof that someone is work you know has a work authorized notation you know to work off campus or to do pre-completion OPT or OPT after they graduate.
00:11:02
Speaker
And so, you know, without SEVIS, I mean, we can get into the legal details of this, but without SEVIS, right, effectively what the what the government is seeking to do here is they they can say that they haven't terminated student status, but by terminating records in the SEVIS system, they've effectively impaired an F-1 student's ability to exercise any of the rights or privileges that are attendant to that to that status.
00:11:26
Speaker
And so they basically, in effect, terminated their status, you know, by kneecapping service. Yeah, it reminds me of that old Will Smith movie where he wakes up one morning and his credit cards have been canceled and, you know, he's no longer a legal person. And, ah you know, just see he's unable to continue his life because his identity has been erased. Is is that a totally off base analogy?
Impact on University Diversity and Research
00:11:49
Speaker
no i would I mean, I would say that that there's definitely an analogy to be drawn there. And just to define terms for for for listeners, SEVIS stands for Student and Exchange Visitor Program.
00:11:59
Speaker
um OPS stands for optional practical training, and the visas that that that students are getting are the are primarily the F-1 visas. So, you know, I want to spend some time talking about how Rutgers is responding to developments. But before we dive into that, you know, I'd really like to sort of trying things from the other side. You know, I imagine some people listening to this might think, oh, you know, who cares? Studying in the US is a privilege.
00:12:29
Speaker
ah When you know when you come to the US to study, you're taking the risk that particularly following a presidential election, immigration policy might change. And so, Joanna, do the threats to international students, do they affect the rest of the university? Are they something that anybody but international students should care about?
00:12:48
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. There's a dramatic effect on the university as a whole. ah Prospective international students will think twice about coming, unfortunately. and And our international students bring a richness of life experience and cultural diversity to the university community.
00:13:05
Speaker
and they enrich the learning that's happening for everyone within the community tremendously. And and without them, we will be a culturally impoverished and anemic institution. so So there is a truly dramatic effect, um not just on the individual students, but on the institution as a whole.
00:13:26
Speaker
and And as Randy mentioned, to some extent, this is already happening. you know International students may be reluctant to leave their dorms. They may be reluctant to leave their apartments. And they're going to be less engaged in community life and university life. and And that harms everyone because it it really does have a negative impact on the rich experience that that is college life or university life.
00:13:49
Speaker
So it matters to all of us. Ph.D.: You know, I know that Rutgers, like many other universities, is a huge source of research, whether it's in into cancer therapies or new technologies or basic science that is used by industries throughout the economy are are these threats to international students affecting the university's research mission.
00:14:14
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we we get the best of the best in terms of international students and and they are contributing in significant ways to the research that's happening across this campus.
00:14:27
Speaker
And that includes, as you pointed out, important medical research breakthroughs that that may be delayed because of lack of of collaboration and participation from international partners. So it it really is a huge impact across the research enterprise and and one that is frankly going to take us a long time to recover from if this continues.
Rapid Response Team for Immigration Emergencies
00:14:49
Speaker
Well, let's turn to talk about ah how Rutgers is responding to this threat. ah Jason and Randy, ah you know, i know that Rutgers already had a project focused on its immigrant students.
00:15:02
Speaker
Can you tell us about that? So I'll start. um So, um yes, Rutgers has really been at the forefront of supporting its immigrant and international students um since 2017. Rutgers has had a program that that you you said it in the beginning, David, is called the Rutgers Immigrant Community Assistance Project.
00:15:27
Speaker
We call it RICAP that has been in existence that that supports our international and immigrant students. um and And Jason has so outstandingly led RICAP since its inception.
00:15:43
Speaker
RICAP provides consultation to any Rutgers student who who feels as if they think want to consult with an immigration attorney. And and for some, RICAP also provides direct representation and does countless community education events um on all of its campuses um so that Rutgers students, faculty and staff are are as educated as as as it as they can be about um what are the rights of our immigrant and international community.
00:16:20
Speaker
and Jason, I don't know if you want to add anything. um But Jason has truly been the fearless leader of of RICAP since 2017. So, I mean, that's a great description of RICAP.
00:16:31
Speaker
I'll just say, I guess, the at the value add of RICAP that I've observed in the time that I've been here is that, you know, RICAP has partnered with the Center for Immigrant Justice around, you know, immigrant rights, things like driver's licenses for the immigrant community, vocational licenses, regardless of lawful presence, when there was like a health care worker crisis during COVID um and even, you know, sort of having this this program exist as it has, we're just so aware of sort of these other factors that affect students on campus, right, that relate to immigration status and access to healthcare, you know, sort of ah immigration status and ability to travel, right, um to work in various fields.
00:17:09
Speaker
And so it's been really great, I guess, just having had this time sort of as we've now entered into a second sort of Trump administration where where RICAP has plugged into so many parts of the university and can mobilize technical assistance to faculty and staff on like a really quick, quick basis.
00:17:29
Speaker
Jason, can can you give us a sense of how many folks RICAP has provided assistance to? What are we, are we talking five or 10 students, you know, every now and then? So I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I mean, it's well over 600 students that have received consultations, probably 700 at this point.
00:17:46
Speaker
And then we've represented over 300 and i want to say 350 students in direct representation. And then most recently, the federal litigation that we filed with the the newly formed rapid response team, which I'm sure we'll talk about shortly.
00:18:00
Speaker
Dr. Matthew Sholler- yeah so let's talk about that so, in addition to the work that rye CAP was already doing the law school in conjunction with the university has started new rapid response project.
00:18:13
Speaker
Matthew Sholler- Joanna, how did you get the idea for this project, or how did the school get the idea ah for this project and what needs does it fulfill. Well, it it really came out of a conversation um in which I was in a meeting with the president and asked to the president because I was hearing about all of these situations with other universities where students were being pulled off the street or having their their service records terminated without any notice to them. ah and And I knew...
00:18:43
Speaker
that it was only a matter of time before this was going to ah directly impact Rutgers students. And so in that conversation with the president, I said, look, it would be great if we could be ready, if we could be prepared to immediately take up these cases for students.
00:18:57
Speaker
And the next day, i got a call from ah John Farmer, who's our our general counsel. And he said, let's talk about this. And so we began a conversation about what that might look like, including a hotline number that students could reach out to um to get immediate ah relief and um and representation potentially.
00:19:19
Speaker
And so then my next call was to Randy. because she is the director of our clinical program and is amazing. And and she said, yes, we can do this. Let's let's figure it out, which was phenomenal. so So then we put forward a plan um to form the rapid response team, which really consists of of attorneys who are standing at the ready to help our students should they encounter immigration authorities. and And so um together we put together a proposal, brought it to the president's office, and and received significant support from the president's office. So I'm happy to say that Rutgers really has a shared commitment to its students, period, but in this in this moment to its international students in particular. And so there was a lot of support for this proposal. um
00:20:07
Speaker
and And our team got it off the ground overnight. randy and and ah Randy and Jason can talk a little bit more about the attorneys involved, but but these are are folks who are so committed to our students and who are subject matter experts and who could step in immediately and and provide ah legal services to students in need. so I'm so proud to be at Rutgers at an institution that that has invested heavily in in protecting its students in this way.
00:20:39
Speaker
ah And i really i really think this is an excellent project, and it's an excellent project due in large part to the people that we have involved. and And Randy and Jason are living together.
00:20:53
Speaker
examples of that. So um it was it was really a great experience to to work with the people that I worked with to get it started. And now it's off and running. And as you can see, um there's already been a lawsuit filed. so So really immediate action in circumstances that warranted it.
00:21:11
Speaker
And just to be clear, this is something that's available to everyone in the Rutgers community. Is that right? It's available to students across the board. ah And so it doesn't have to be a law student. It could be any Rutgers student who is facing some of these particular challenges.
00:21:28
Speaker
And the rapid response line that you talked about, that's a twenty four seven hotline that students can call. Is that right? That's correct. For emergencies, not for any legal needs that you may have, ah but for people who encounter immigration emergencies. Right.
00:21:43
Speaker
Yes. And that's an important clarification because we we really do want to save that hotline number for students who are in an emergency situation ah to reach out for help. ah Jason, when should people be contacting this ah emergency hotline? What kind of problems is it there for?
00:22:00
Speaker
The emergency hotline is specifically for students who are engaged in and enforcement encounters, or maybe they've been stopped by ICE, or they're facing imminent arrest and deportation. That's really the specific circumstance when students should use that number.
00:22:15
Speaker
I highly recommend students pre-program that number into their phone and have it at the ready if they need it. um Or make sure that they have ah like an emergency contact that knows the plan to contact that number immediately.
00:22:28
Speaker
um We have you know great attorneys that are available 24-7 that will rush. right You can file an emergency petition in district court any time. They'll file to preserve jurisdiction and you know file habeas if you have to be released from detention.
00:22:42
Speaker
um And so that's sort of the immediate
Legal Actions and University Collaboration
00:22:44
Speaker
action. If there's a situation right with these service terminations where students were, you know, having personal emergencies where their service record was terminated, but they were not facing immediate enforcement, then in that situation, the best thing to do is to call RICAP's contact line, and which is available on our website and has been circulated, I'm sure, in very many emails now.
00:23:03
Speaker
um And we will get back in touch with you usually within 48 business hours, um but really sooner than than that in most cases. um And we can we can address your issues that way.
00:23:15
Speaker
If I could just add something about the rapid response team. I mean, it it's just been so um inspiring and and heartwarming to me in these pretty bleak times that, you know, we have both the support of of our dean and but also of the president and that my colleagues, Jason included, really stepped up um when we needed literally immediate support.
00:23:41
Speaker
emergency legal services. And I just want to say that those colleagues are are Jessica Rofe, who is the director of our Constitutional Rights Clinic, and two wonderful um detention defense attorneys from our Immigrant Rights Clinic, Lena Canuela and Pina Cirillo. And so our plan is that that that team will be in place until we can hire a rapid response attorney to be on staff full time with RICAP. But obviously that wasn't going to happen overnight. And and Joanna and and everyone saw the need of ah having somebody in place immediately. And so it's just been, you know, truly inspiring. and and and
00:24:23
Speaker
And to quote Joanna really, you know, makes me proud to to be a part of Rutgers. So this project has been going for a couple of weeks now. Jason, what has the Rapid Response Team done so far? So fortunately, we haven't had to respond to any like imminent ICE enforcement actions.
00:24:38
Speaker
But since the Rapid Response Team was created, we did learn that over a dozen students enrolled at Rutgers or ah recent grads from Rutgers had their service records terminated.
00:24:49
Speaker
um I think one of the things that's so great about having RICAP in place and then having this rapid response team is that we have such a strong understanding of our students at this point and you know we are immigration experts, but it positioned us to really evaluate what was happening here and to reach out to other partners like the ACLU of New Jersey and Gibbons and figure out like what could be our response. Originally, we thought we would operate within the immigration system, perhaps seeking reinstatement for these students.
00:25:18
Speaker
But then it became really clear that this this does involve like non-immigrants or people you know people from outside the US, but it just involves immigrants. What we're really talking about here is the Constitution of the United States and the Administrative Procedures Act and holding the government to account when they don't you know abide by the Constitution or follow the regulations that they set forth you know for themselves and don't follow the regulations you know that that they're bound by. um And so in this case, what we've really done is we filed litigation in district court, basically challenging the termination of these severance records in violation of ah you know the the Fifth Amendment due process clause.
00:25:58
Speaker
ah Because you know you did ask, like you know are students able to mount a response? And so within the system, the response to having your severance record terminated I mean, usually ice does not terminate your record. So this is an aberration in the first instance.
00:26:14
Speaker
Usually it's terminated by your school when they identify a fact that puts you out of compliance. um But then you must seek reinstatement, but you have to admit a violation and then your status is reinstated discretionarily.
00:26:28
Speaker
there is no redress or or appeal of having your SEBAS record terminated. And so all of these students were just you know doing their work as they were doing every day for however many years and just found out that this outcome had happened and had no chance to provide a response or anything.
00:26:45
Speaker
And so we've had to file in district court to basically challenge that. um Also, the Administrative Procedures Act just doesn't permit for this sort of termination. And so this is just a violation of the Accardi Doctrine, but also just like an unlawful pattern of practice of putting thousands of students across the country out of status, not in compliance with regulations set forth by, you know, the executive branch.
00:27:10
Speaker
And so really, like, this does involve immigrants, um but these are much larger issues that I think, you know, we're we're talking about protections that affect any stakeholder that's in the United States.
00:27:21
Speaker
And you know if these individuals were detained as a result of this, right as a result of these severest record terminations, I mean, they would lose their freedom without even having had this opportunity of redress.
00:27:32
Speaker
And so that would be you know also a violation of Fifth Amendment due process. And so there are a lot of issues on the table here um that are wrapped in immigration matters, but really they're core principles of like what are American values and holding the government you know, to to basically account, right, for for the laws that we have, you know, in our country. right This is a nation of laws, as we've heard so often lately.
00:27:54
Speaker
So if I understand correctly, you know, the way it used to work is if, you know, someone lost their eligibility for a visa, the university would tell them about that. They'd have a chance to respond, um you know, after hearing from the student, maybe the university would go in and say, look, this person is no longer eligible for a visa.
00:28:16
Speaker
And what we're seeing today, if I understand correctly, is government agencies just going into that database and taking over the function that universities used to play and saying, you know, really by the thousands, we're revoking these visas or we're suspending these visas. Is that right?
00:28:36
Speaker
That's correct. I mean, there would be a back and forth with the university and then the university would be required, right? If there is a violation, the universities are required to report the violation, but they secure documentation from the student and they have to upload that documentation into the system to support that finding.
00:28:52
Speaker
Here, right, there have just been annotations that students have You know, failed initially, it said failed to maintain status criminal background check slash, you know, visa revocation.
00:29:04
Speaker
And that's boilerplate language that immediately just having two options in that option makes it unclear whether or not there's criminal history or there's some other immigration flag on their case and of the students that were affected.
00:29:17
Speaker
It was a mixed deck. So that's, you know, it doesn't really give you any information that you could even mount a defense. um And even those notations change from the beginning of this event happening to the point that we filed litigation. So there's definitely been just procedural regularities throughout this whole process.
00:29:34
Speaker
um and And yeah, so what you say is exactly what is happening. And typically, SEVP does not have like a function where they institute changes. There's just general maintenance of the system.
00:29:49
Speaker
So, Joanna, you talked a little bit about how the project at Rutgers got started. And and of course, this is only something for Rutgers students, right? it's It's limited to our university community.
00:30:01
Speaker
But as we were discussing, students across the nation are facing these kinds of threats. And it's not just in New Jersey. that students are having visas threaten terminated or that they're being threatened with deportation.
00:30:12
Speaker
um But, you know, really nationwide, is the project at Rutgers something that other universities could adopt? is it Is this a model for other institutions?
00:30:25
Speaker
I think so. i think other institutions could make the decision to replicate this model. I think it's a good model. I think it's already proven to be protective of our students based on on the lawsuit that was recently filed. um And hopefully there's a positive result in that case. But ah I do think that that other universities could adopt this rapid response model.
00:30:49
Speaker
and And I think it it really fulfills need that exists out there. And i'm I'm not sure that other universities have taken that approach yet, but but I believe it is a model that could be used elsewhere.
00:31:01
Speaker
I have been getting queries from around um people at schools around the nation who want to know exactly what we're doing and and how we're doing Yeah. ah You know, just following the news, i've been struck by the extent to which, as they respond to these threats, universities are really going it alone, right? yeah Each of them, you know, seems to be trying to figure out how best to respond to these problems at the level of a specific university or sometimes even at, you know, specific schools within universities, which which is really puzzling to me. um Joanna, do you think there's a role for greater coordination on these kinds of issues? Is there a reason for universities to be doing this one by one rather than protecting their collective interests?
00:31:48
Speaker
I think it makes sense to to team up and protect collective interests. Absolutely. but But I do think that that part of the explanation is that institutions of higher ed are are struggling to respond to crises on a weekly basis. And so I I think that that explains part of this, the lack of of coordination and collaboration. It's simply a product of of leaders trying to stay ahead of what is coming down the pike. and And last night, for example, we had ah another executive order about accreditation and specifically targeting accreditors, the ABA in particular, um that is the body that accredits law schools. so
00:32:29
Speaker
So I think that's just one example, but but there are many, many issues that are are raised really on a weekly basis that require some kind of thoughtful response from universities. And so some of it is just trying, leaders trying to keep their heads above water. um But that said, this is a real opportunity for collaboration. And and I think that we one thing that would be helpful is information sharing across networks. And so as we venture into this litigation, there may be things that that are relevant and shareable in in other jurisdictions. And so I
00:33:07
Speaker
I think that one of the things that RICAP has done is is it has an incredible network of community organizations that it's worked with. And so sharing information within those communities um and and also across institutions of a higher ed, i think I think there are real possibilities there that are at this point untapped. But who knows? Maybe maybe we'll get better at this as time goes on.
00:33:33
Speaker
I think there are a few universities that have um Something like YCAP, the UC system does, and and a few others. And, you know, that that started in in the first Trump administration.
00:33:46
Speaker
and i and I know they are connected. and so that's good. There also is something called the President's Alliance on Higher Education. and immigration that is trying that again started during the Trump administration that that does try to coordinate some of the efforts. But but to Joanna's point, it it it is also just really hard to keep up. I mean, um even just in the immigration space there, you know, it's it's pretty much daily that there's there's something new, you know, new executive order, new policy, new something coming down that that we're all trying to respond to. hmm.
00:34:22
Speaker
I think back just to the like days of DACA and how there was an effort for universities to collaborate on, you know can we do you know DACA renewal events for all of our students across New Jersey?
00:34:34
Speaker
And I felt like there was potential there, but the rapid response team, I think, reveals sort of where the real value in communication across institutions is, because I cannot tell you how many students have reached out to us when they've learned about Rutgers pursuing litigation for their students, asking if they could join our litigation And so we, you know, we, you know, to Joanna's point, we've been reaching out to all of our partners across the country who are bringing litigation in different parts of the country or bringing litigation, you know, in New York or in New Jersey.
00:35:01
Speaker
And we do try to help match students that we can't serve. But I think there this is an example where, you know, in ah in a future scenario, we could have a joint response where we seek relief for all of these students in New Jersey that are similarly situated.
00:35:15
Speaker
But it would just take some planning to get all of that data collected and prepare all those litigants. And so there were limitations this time around. But I think it does sort of like seed this idea that there could be similarly situated students across universities that have claims that could be filed together, depending on what the administration does next.
Advice for Affected Students
00:35:33
Speaker
Well, this has been a really informative discussion of what's going on in universities and and what Rutgers is doing to protect its students. um yeah You know, I wanted to close by bringing it back to the students. um Randy, if you had a message for students who are being impacted by these policies, what would it be? And then I'll put the same question to Jason.
00:35:56
Speaker
um I mean, it's it's hard because we're really living in some some lawless times. um But You know, I think I would first tell them to breathe and and and don't panic, um to try to plan and and gather their documents, um learn their rights, um and and you know it and identify an attorney. And you know if you're at Rutgers, you're fortunate that that that we know that that RICAP, it can be that attorney. um
00:36:27
Speaker
and and you know but But for anyone, you know i think to try to um identify some legal assistance um and to just try to to think through a plan um if the worst case scenario happens. But hopefully it won't.
00:36:42
Speaker
Jason, anything to add? um i mean, I'm not sure when this is airing, but if you know, I mean, on April 30th, we're hosting like a university wide community information session or you know conversation around issues that are affecting non-citizen students at the university.
00:36:57
Speaker
And so I hope that any students, faculty or staff you know that hear this will attend that event for more information. I think you know I echo what Randy said about not panicking. There's so much information being circulated.
00:37:10
Speaker
um some of Some of it's accurate, some of it's you know built on some accuracies and some of it's false. And so just to make sure to identify you know where your resources are and where you can get accurate information and to just, you know I guess, take it one step at a time.
Conclusion and Thanks
00:37:27
Speaker
Well, thank you all for the discussion. This has been really enlightening. And thank you also for the work that you're doing on behalf of our students. Thanks so much, David. Thank you. Thank you.
00:37:40
Speaker
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00:37:56
Speaker
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