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S07E09: A Conversation with Rutgers University–Newark Chancellor Tonya Smith-Jackson
2 Playsin 2 days
Rutgers University–Newark Chancellor Tonya Smith-Jackson joins Dean Bond for a wide-ranging conversation about her journey in education and her vision for the Rutgers campus in Newark. You can read more about Chancellor Smith-Jackson here.
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The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to the award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and Dean of the Law School, Joanna Bond.
00:00:23
Speaker
Today's guest is the Chancellor of Rutgers University, Newark. Chancellor Tanya Smith Jackson is a first-generation college graduate. We'll hear about her journey from military life to her family roots in agriculture to becoming a trailblazing leader in academia and technology. We're also going to learn about her vision for our campus home in Newark.
00:00:43
Speaker
Thank you again, Chancellor, for joining us. Well, thank you for inviting me, Dean Bond. I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to the discussion. Great. Me too. I'm going to begin, as I often do with our guests, about by asking you about your origin story. Can you tell us a little bit about your origin story?
00:01:02
Speaker
All right. Well, um I won't go back decades, but in general, I'll just say that ah i I am um um'm i'm a person who has come from from many different places and been able to to experience many different places. My ah parents originally are from Northampton County, and I was born in the neighboring Halifax County. My father is a career Air Force airman, and he spent 24 years in the Air Force. So I spent my my life with my parents and my five siblings moving around many places. They were stationed in Italy, Philippine Islands, Texas, North Dakota, New Mexico, ah all kinds of other places. And so I was able to experience different parts of the world and then also be able to create an identity, I believe, that is appreciative of of many different cultures and and ways of of viewing the world.
00:02:02
Speaker
My father, when he um when he retired, we all came back to North Carolina. I was in high school at the at the time and came back to Northampton County, North Carolina and farmed the land that was the family land. And so having my father also worked two jobs, my mother had two jobs and we were running a farm at the same time.
00:02:24
Speaker
ah But it was important for us to use agriculture also as a means to support ourselves, to contribute to the economy, to feed people and send things to market so that things could end up on grocery store shelves. But I learned a lot having to work on a farm and also being expected to be high academic achieving. Our our parents instilled in us the very much the importance of education as a key to social mobility and a key to liberation. I've said that many times before, but it is a level of of privilege and freedom one gets, no matter what your your background and where you came from. But there's a level of freedom and privilege that comes with having a degree that can, in many ways, purchase opportunity for you in the economy, and the economies where you'll find yourself.
00:03:14
Speaker
And then ultimately, um I was able to go into a a high school that was established by Governor Jim Hunt really for people who were high academic achieving, but probably would never have the opportunity to go to elite schools at the at the at the secondary level.
00:03:32
Speaker
And he ah Governor Jim Hunt in the state of North Carolina established a public residential high school called the North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics. And through various entry requirements and testing and all kinds of testing, I was accepted into the North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics, which is where I finished my 11th and 12th grade year. And then i ah ended up going to UNC Chapel Hill, and I was going to be a doctor. Wow. My parents, yeah, I said, I'm going to be a medical doctor, and ultimately I wanted to be a psychiatrist. um
00:04:07
Speaker
it was ah It ended up being that chemistry was not my forte as much as I worked. worked hard. It was not the thing. And so i changed my major a couple of times and ended up finishing um a major in psychology at UNC Chapel Hill. But it was there that one of the fantastic professors I had had noticed that I was changing my major all the time and seemed to love everything except chemistry.
00:04:35
Speaker
With that caveat, right? Yeah, with that caveat. So he convinced me, though, there were ways in which I could mix and mingle my love of technology. And um at the time, we called it programming. It's now coding, what we call coding in computer science, and combine that in some way with psychology. And so I ended up at and ah North Carolina State University, in a program that combined engineering and psychology, ultimately industrial and systems engineering, also known as human factors engineering. And that was my origin from the educational side. But after being in industry and government and academia, I finally settled on the fact that I wanted to be someone who helped others be successful.
00:05:18
Speaker
And that's where I see higher education. we are We are servants of the people and we are the servants who actually open the doors So that other people who need access can get that access. So we have the keys, the keys to the opportunity pathways. And that's where I wanted to ah to really place myself in terms of my ultimately what my career would be.
00:05:38
Speaker
That is fantastic. And what an inspiring journey that that has been for you. I wanna take you back to two aspects that you mentioned of your of your youth. one One is growing up in a military family. And and I wanna ask you about whether or not that that background, um having a military family, did that inform the way that you approach your own academic and and personal journey?
00:06:07
Speaker
um i I do believe it did. ah Being in a military family and then ah my husband, who spent five years in the Army, which is where we lived in Germany and um upstate New York near the Canadian border, i i developed a certain kind of lens.
00:06:24
Speaker
it was i ah I really do believe that exposure to multiple cultures helps you to develop an inclusive lens, a lens where you respect and see the importance of integrating different perspectives. So when you can have a lived experience of having to formulate your identity in multiple places, spaces, and around different types of people, you do kind of have an advantage of floating in between and adapting across the complexities and nuances of people. Because we're what we all do here, no matter what, in this thing called life, we're trying to master systems of people.
00:07:06
Speaker
It isn't always just procedures and and and laws and mathematics and engineering and what what it's really systems of people. And so the more you have a lived experience where you get to engage with different attributes of the systems of people, then you develop ways of viewing the world that can work in your, ah toward your, toward what you're trying to do. And so in academia and government and industry, it was that ability, i think, to, so to engage with people and understand their perspectives, understand where they were coming from because of the lived experiences they had. It helped to inform my research in academia. it informed how I taught courses. It informed me when I worked for the
00:07:53
Speaker
Department of Defense or IBM or Ericsson. I was always working with people systems. And so it really does help. ah And particularly in leadership, you begin to value perspectives when you've been able to live in those perspectives and not just engage with them, you know, ah on the side or for minutes at a time during any given day, but to have lived in those spaces I have been able to process things in a way that has helped me, and I'm not saying it works for everybody, but it helps me to to be a better leader, a much more inclusive leader, and then build systems that I hope are beneficial to the broadest range of people.
00:08:37
Speaker
That makes absolute sense to me, especially having moved to those many different communities and lived within those many different communities. It gives you a sort of fluency in cross-cultural communication that that I'm sure comes in handy in your current role and and probably all of your past roles too. Yeah.
00:08:57
Speaker
Now, the other thing I wanted to follow up on and ask you a question about is I have heard through the grapevine that you have a very special title that dates back to your your days farming with the family. ah And so I have to ask, how did you get the title, The Best Pickle Picker in the Family? Yeah.
00:09:15
Speaker
I know someone was really digging in my background. I'm a little nervous here. I'm nervous now. um But, you know, the pick pickle picking. So cucumber picking in general, there are certain certain cucumbers that are certain sizes that will go to market for pickle companies.
00:09:34
Speaker
ah But if they are too big or too small, ah you know, they they will not go to market. So you have to separate them. So when you're picking, you learn to pick quickly and carefully those pickles that genuinely fit the market. And so it's a lot of decision making. lot And people, it's not until you do it that you realize this is hard. But you have to move fast and and manage to not damage the vines and not damage the blooms. But you've got to be able to spot a good pickle quickly, throw it in the bucket and separate the other pickles, you know, into the middle. You you throw them in in another location. But nonetheless, that is an exercise in, and and I'm going to brag about it. It's an exercise in decision-making prowess.
00:10:19
Speaker
Right. Absolutely. Speed of movement, speed of movement and aim. You have to aim well too. So i I was, you know, pretty fast with that. Now my, my sisters and my brother might say otherwise, but I think I was pretty much the best one.
00:10:34
Speaker
I believe it. I believe it, Chancellor. I also know you were a basketball player, so I believe you got those pickles in that bucket pretty fast and pretty accurately. yeah It all goes together. yeah absolutelys Absolutely. i I also know that that you were under the impression, maybe at an early stage, that that you would be living the farm life, but that your mother changed your mind. What what was that turning point for you?
00:10:59
Speaker
Oh, you know, i when I was... accepted into the North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics. So I found out in the 10th grade that I would be going there in the 11th grade. I mean, I was notified that I was selected. I was not going to go because initially i felt like I was needed on on the farm. I mean, farms are complex to run. And my mother was working. My father was working at other jobs as well. They needed us.
00:11:28
Speaker
And we needed them, of course. But it was something my mother said one day, when I was kind of pin opining on why I thought leaving would not be a good idea. And she basically said to me, you know, think about this.
00:11:45
Speaker
What kind of legacy do you want to lead in your life? You know, what do you, and she just said it, you know, as happenstance, what kind of legacy do you want to leave? And I thought to myself, that's a good question. Now, certainly agriculture and remaining in farming is is a great thing to do. very noble. But at the same time, I had spent my life um trying to build a knowledge base, a general knowledge base that I could use to transform the world. That knowledge base, when I say better, a stronger knowledge base. And so my mother then reminded me of a scripture at the time ah that was a proverb that was related to knowledge. um
00:12:29
Speaker
And it was it was basically learn everything you can, but understand that with knowledge increases sorrow. And when she said that, she was saying, learn everything you can, go forward and do what you what you think you ought to do, but understand that as you gain that knowledge and learn more and realize there's so much more to do, ah it it is something that might make you a bit sorrowful, but keep going. And and my my mother, i should say, was is a Stoic. She's 84.
00:12:57
Speaker
My mother is a Stoic. So Marcus Aurelius is ah the meditations. Now, my mother would not call herself a Stoic, but if you look at Stoicism, that's really what what she was. Her whole point was do the practical thing that you are good at.
00:13:11
Speaker
If you are good at that, just go forward, be good at it, but use it for good. Use it to make a difference in the world. And it was that talk that made me say, okay, I'm going to go here. I'm going to go to this high school, still do my best to go back to the family farm as needed to do things. But I'm going to go to this high school and then focus on on increasing my knowledge.
00:13:33
Speaker
Wow, what a profound question to pose to a young person. It sounds like it sounds like it really did ah prove to be a thoughtful question and one that that set you on the path. That's wonderful.
00:13:47
Speaker
i I want to ask now, too, about how your personal journey, especially as a first-generation college student, informs your commitment to student success and equity.
00:14:00
Speaker
Well, i think it it goes back to lived experience. um We at Rutgers University of Newark, we serve ah many first-generation students. We serve students who are many students, ah majority, who are Pell-eligible. So coming from lived experiences where access to education ah was it probably, or access to high-quality education was probably a mountain to climb, but something of great value.
00:14:30
Speaker
And so I have been in those situations. My lived experience is all about trying to get into the educational spaces and have the social capital to get into certain educational opportunities. We often think that access to education is fair and open to everyone, and it is not. The way the systems are designed, ah they make it very difficult unless you have some form of an inherited privilege around education. So having had the lived experience of not having that inherited privilege, um I can relate to to students in their struggles. The students that we have here at Rutgers University Newark who struggle from day to day, i can relate to those struggles and then use that as system feedback.
00:15:18
Speaker
We have designed those successfully even before I came here because I'm still new. This is like, you know, I'm i'm only a few months in. I came here already with ah work being able to work with the system that has been designing itself around access and around first generation low socioeconomic challenges to help our students to get that degree which they so value. But again, I really think it takes some form of lived experience to be able to relate at the depth necessary to make change in the system, to to continue to facilitate the success of these students. So for me, my lens on student success comes out of my own lived experience and then being able to connect over the years to determining what's wrong with this system, this system that was built to really basically help the elite. You know, what do we, how do we have to continue to redesign, to tweak it, to engineer it in a way that everybody can use it, benefit and get and get similar outcomes.
00:16:27
Speaker
it's It's certainly that commitment to access and academic excellence and social mobility that that makes Rutgers so special. And it's certainly one of the things that that drew me to the institution. ah Can you tell us a little bit about, and and perhaps you've just alluded to these things, but can you tell us what inspired you to pursue the role of chancellor at Rutgers New York?
00:16:51
Speaker
oh Well, it's It really was not my lifelong ambition to be a chancellor. I can say that for sure. It was not not my lifelong ambition to be a chancellor or a president of of a university.
00:17:07
Speaker
i i was very happy where I was. I was happy being a provost. And to me, provost being the way that I value knowledge in academics and and research and outreach, being the chief academic officer at a university was the pinnacle for me. I really would have said,
00:17:25
Speaker
And four years ago, i have, you know, I've reached the pinnacle. And that's what I said to myself, this is where I want to be. I was at a great institution, North Carolina A&T State University, an anchor institution, a public land grant, very similar student demographic and and and profile.
00:17:43
Speaker
I was happy where I was, I have to say. And and so my family as as well. But someone called me. when the chancellor position was posted for Rutgers University Newark.
00:17:56
Speaker
And at the time, I'm going to tell you, I knew Rutgers University overall, and I knew Rutgers University ah New Brunswick, but I can tell you, I was aware of Rutgers University Newark, but did not know much about it.
00:18:09
Speaker
And I started reading about Rutgers University Newark. And i actually talked to a couple of people, one who had been here been here many years ago and another who was currently here. And I just asked the hard questions. I said, what is it about this place that, from your perspective, makes it a place that really does is true and committed to access and inclusion?
00:18:33
Speaker
So when I continued to read and talk to people, the more I read about Rutgers University Newark, the more I said, oh my goodness. This place is calling my name. it is ah it has Rutgers University was able, Rutgers University Newark is able was able to get the anchor promise right, to really embed itself in the community. I know you in the law school, you're doing some great things in the community and being true to the combination of the university and the community, a true community.
00:19:06
Speaker
partnership that is reciprocally beneficial, okay, and continues to to serve the community. When I saw the anchor work and started reading about the anchor work of Rutgers University Newark, I said, these folks have gotten it right. This is the hardest part, but the most valuable valuable part of what a public institution ought to be in the United States. We are not supposed to be ivory towers. We are supposed to be institutions that when we thrive, our community thrives. We are coupled in a way that everybody rises. And so I learned that about Rutgers University of Newark, that it was the best in the nation for getting the anchor promise right. And then on top of that, it was serving the profile of students that I have served all my life, I think are is important for me in terms of my calling in higher ed. And so that combination really is what called me to, and you know, to apply for the position. And I i tell you, when I applied, i applied not in a way that was
00:20:12
Speaker
hey, maybe I'll get it, maybe I want. I applied and I was salivating. I was like, I really want to get this job. I'm so glad. But it's calling my name. And so anyway, I was excited. And so that's what drew me here. And then, of course, during the interviews and really seeing it for myself, I thought this is this is an absolute place where they have engineered opportunity pathways. And I just want to get there and and take it to the next level.
00:20:42
Speaker
I'm so glad that the opportunity spoke to you in that way. That's fantastic. And we're so lucky to have you. ah Let me ask about your your top priorities for this year. This is, as you said, your first year at Rutgers Newark as chancellor. and And I'm curious, and I'm sure our listeners will be too, about what your your highest priorities are for for year one.
00:21:02
Speaker
Yeah. You know, i'm I'm holding listening sessions going across the university and talking to various groups, internal and external about what they see in the university and working together to build a shared vision and mission for Rutgers University Newark. But I can say certainly that there are some things to me that are immediately obvious that we need to think about. And and the first is really building an institution that is research and anchor coupled, coupled together together as a strong research and anchor institution. So we've already gotten the anchor institution part right. But what we really do need to focus on is being ah ah going from a research two institution to a research one institution, from high research to very high research in terms of the Carnegie and Association of um American Council on Education Classification System.
00:22:04
Speaker
when when When I say R1, though, and why it's important to move to R1, it's not about just amassing more research funding, as an example, or just doing research for the sake of research.
00:22:16
Speaker
One of the things we know from ah probably the last 25 or so years is that when you have a Research 1 embedded in a community, the economy of that community ah really does scale up, scale up on an order of magnitude higher.
00:22:35
Speaker
And it is significantly higher. So being an R1 is part of our anchor promise. When we become a Research One institution, the way that the city of Newark will thrive is economically and in other ways as well. But we will start attracting more and more businesses to this area because businesses are attracted to R1 institutions. They know the talent is there.
00:22:57
Speaker
They know they can partner even more in terms of research. And the other aspect of this is that Research One brings privileges that other institutions have ridden on those privileges for decades.
00:23:11
Speaker
ah They have been able to amass even more influence because of their R1 status. We want to take advantage of having that same kind of position. And it's well within our reach. But again,
00:23:25
Speaker
I think that the opportunity for us is to couple R1 with anchor, ah with our anchor position. Most people can't take advantage of that because they're not in a good space, but we're in a strong space in the anchor part, and we're we're getting stronger in the research part. And when you pull those two things together, we benefit, the community around us benefits, and also the state of New Jersey will benefit absolutely economically.
00:23:53
Speaker
so it's an important goal. Absolutely. And Chancellor, I love that you make that link explicitly between our one designation and and our anchor institution mission and how having that designation will actually help further our anchor ah institution mission. So that's that's very helpful. Chancellor, what surprised you about Rutgers Newark when you started this role a few months ago?
00:24:17
Speaker
Oh, when I came to Rutgers University Newark, um but What surprised me most is that I did not see a whole lot of swagger at this institution. it Interesting. Yeah, I'm the most humble person in the world. All right. But. But certainly when you have a Rutgers University Newark, the the way that it is, all the accomplishments that we have, I would have expected to see more branding, more you know stuff, people wearing their swag. you know I would have thought we had ah you know, some kind of a prideful chant or something. And so, you know, the first few weeks, I was like, where is, where's the swagger? We we don't we don't have enough swagger in here. And so that's, that's what I, so I've been talking about that ah probably for the last two two months now, saying to folks, listen, we have a lot to be proud of. Let's, let's step forward and be proud and start wearing our stuff. And, you know I've asked the the cheer squad, work on a chant, for goodness sake. We need something that we can shout out that's that that is a symbol of the pride of the university. And so that's what surprised me. I thought this place is fantastic. It's a top 50 public. It's a ah Anchor institution number five in social mobility, where's the pride? that's Absolutely. That's what surprised me. And I think so many of us feel that pride, but but there's no outward manifestation of it. So i I love your ideas about how do we bring that to the surface and and brag a little bit more about those things that we are so proud of. So I love that. Thank you. Oh, yeah.
00:25:59
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you very much. But we can do better in that area, and and and we definitely will. so ah Great. I love it. Now, you've had a remarkable career spanning academia, government, and industry.
00:26:12
Speaker
So what experiences within those various venues do you think have most shaped your leadership style? Because I've had those experiences in various occupational sectors, really, it has helped me my leadership style to move towards a more situational leadership style.
00:26:34
Speaker
I've learned that... ah Leadership depends, and on any given day actually, depends on the context in which you find yourself, the culture in which you find yourself, and the climate in which you find yourself. And so being able to be in different industry sectors and within those sectors experience different different events and cultures and ways of being have helped me to understand that as a leader, one style does not work. And sticking to one specific style is is not going to be beneficial. You do have to be agile in leadership. There are times in which you have to take styles that might be more much more flexible and even laissez-faire.
00:27:16
Speaker
ah There are styles, though, where you you know it could be a week later, where you're going to need to float into a more deterministic style. where you are you are using more rigid structures in order to move something along.
00:27:31
Speaker
As an example, rigid structures work well when you're in crisis. If you have to lead in crisis, you have to establish some some very strong structures. and And I've learned that having worked for two generals. Right.
00:27:44
Speaker
I've learned that sometimes when you, yes, and whether it was desert storm or what, rigid structures have to be done at certain times. for momentary periods and then you relax, right? So I've learned having to float between those things is that we do have to be flexible in our leadership styles. In other words, using situational leadership. But I've also learned a great deal about user-centered design.
00:28:09
Speaker
In academia, in industry, in government, user-centered design is important. We must design for the people who are using our systems and whether they are employees, they're students, they're community partners, they're corporate partners, they're donors, whoever it is, whatever we design, we need to think about who is using our product, our our system.
00:28:35
Speaker
Once you do that, you are living up to whatever your mission is, even and no matter how it's stated, if your mission is truly to make some kind of difference,
00:28:47
Speaker
to serve, to to make things better. However you state that mission, if you are using user-centered design and for students, a student-centered design, then you can prevail in that regard. That that is incredible.
00:29:01
Speaker
really insightful and i that maps really well onto my own focus on student centeredness, but I also love the broader articulation of user centered focus because there are other constituencies that we are dealing with on a regular basis. And so that might be our donor community or alumni community, but but putting those folks at the center of our analysis, it makes sense to me. That's great. ah what What role do you see the law school specifically playing in in your leadership of Rutgers New York?
00:29:37
Speaker
Oh, in many ways. Certainly the the educational aspects of the law school and how our law school, our joint law school, newar Newark and Camden, play a role in preparing our our next our next generation of of lawyers, attorneys, et cetera,
00:29:57
Speaker
What I value in terms of just the things I think about that are future forward about the law school, I really do appreciate the social justice emphasis of the law school. And that social justice emphasis, it's just powerful. There's a legacy. And I talked to, Joanna, some of your alumni, oh my goodness, they are still on fire having come out of that. Absolutely. They are. I know. I love it. I love getting energized by them. Yeah. I don't know. You might have to explain to me what your secret sauce is, but I don't know. I'm not sure.
00:30:34
Speaker
Yeah. it's It's incredible. they're They're out in the world doing really important work, advancing social justice, and yeah and they're they're leaders in their own communities in all kinds of ways. so So there is something very special about the legal education that we're providing here. my goodness. There is something about it. And they they still appreciate, I mean, alumni who've been out for some time um and newer alumni. I talked to person who had graduated last year or, yeah, finished law school last year. ah But they so much appreciate whatever transformative things you all are doing in the law school. And so that very much right there is the role the law school is playing. And you can be a model for all of our other schools and for other universities outside of ah Rutgers University, Newark, of course. So- The other side of that though is I see the law school, ah it's being able to, so and this is already conversations that you all are having, being able to create new and different ways of looking at social justice. So you have ah faculty, and and and thank you for being the kind of leader who emphasizes interdisciplinary collaboration. You have faculty who are looking into artificial intelligence and social justice. That is a powerful thing that is really going to put us on the map. You all are already doing that. I think it's been at least a year or two being forward thinking. There is a lot of ah injustice in artificial intelligence in the banking industry. And Kathy O'Neill wrote a book called Weapons of Math, M-A-T-H, Weapons of Math Destruction, where the yeah the math underneath
00:32:15
Speaker
the algorithms is just flawed in a way that it further disadvantages those who are disadvantaged and creates significant advantages for people who are already overly advantaged. And you, because you've emphasized interdisciplinary collaboration, you now have faculty who are seriously having very significant discussions around how we can advance education, research and scholarship, and community engagement around AI and law.
00:32:44
Speaker
ah So that's a space where I see the law school. And also, you know, you all have really done your your your STEM, your pre-law STEM work. And boy, there's so much there that some of our our STEM students can see their role. I mean, I was an expert witness in product safety litigation. And so I was able to use engineering and psychology and product safety combined mostly in plaintiff cases, one corporate case, but mostly um on the side of the plaintiffs where, ah um you know, things were going wrong because of the way products were engineered without the understanding of how people interact with those products. Well, because of the work that you are doing with STEM students and helping to bring them into the law arena and the law discipline, they can use that perspective and combine it with law And do great things. I mean, just do great things from a social justice perspective.
00:33:45
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. I love hearing about your testimony that you are in many ways the embodiment of of this interdisciplinary approach that we're taking in terms of how the law interacts with other disciplines. And and certainly STEM is is an important component.
00:34:00
Speaker
it's an important knowledge base for lawyers, particularly if they end up in in intellectual property or some other science-based aspect of the law. And there are many. ah So that's that's really great and and helpful to hear. there There are, as you know, some some fantastic cross-collaborations happening. ah like our prep law pipeline program between the law school and Newark School of Arts and Sciences, and our community and transactional lawyering clinic and Rutgers Business School team up to provide assistance to local entrepreneurs.
00:34:35
Speaker
For the first time in 2025, undergraduates joined our law students on a trip to Cuba, California. to learn about the legal system in Cuba. ah theyre Those are just a few examples, of but there are many, many others. And and we've talked a little bit about interdisciplinarity and how important it is, but but I wonder if you can expand on that and and talk about how interdisciplinary collaboration really plays a vital role in your vision for for Rutgers Newark.
00:35:09
Speaker
Yeah, you know, interdisciplinary collaboration actually is a space for us to take advantage of the strengths we already have, to leverage the strengths we already have. ah Again, we are great at the anchor institution ah work.
00:35:24
Speaker
But when we think of interdisciplinary opportunities, We're in a space where we have strong disciplines, we have great academic rigor across our various schools. The opportunity for us though is to spend more time helping our students and also our faculty in scholarship and and and community engagement to think ah at the intersections.
00:35:49
Speaker
If we can think at the intersections, that's absolutely where innovation happens. And so this is why you you'll hear me always say interdisciplinary. I hardly ever say multidisciplinary. I truly mean the Venn diagram. Okay. I truly mean that new space created by the overlap. And when minds come together in that space, truly you can, I mean, you can have some amazing ways or new ways to think about the world where people would want to engage in us even more. That will draw people to the institution in multiple ways, not just to attend, that's part of it, but also to support our institution in the interdisciplinary work that we do. And so again, your your your work with arts and sciences, I mean, just imagine the new things that would happen when we, or probably are already happening, when we bring law and art together and we're looking at cyber arts, for example, the AI space, the the way that ah you know AI is helping people to create art, yet we have to figure out who owns it, who is the en originator of that art. That's a whole legal field. Absolutely. That's where the law comes in. You're right. That's right.
00:37:06
Speaker
And so, you know, it's all there. It's just my my my vision for the institution is that we create more structures to help our folks grow. are doing great in their disciplines to come together and start doing more at the intersections. I love that. I i love the vision of of breaking down disciplinary silos and building bridges across those those ah disciplinary boundaries.
00:37:31
Speaker
That really meshes well with my vision of what we should be doing as academics too. Now, I have to ask you specifically about the law students that we're sending out into the world. So what are your hopes for the next generation of legal professionals graduating from from our law school here in Rutgers, Newark? um the I thought, you know, i there's so much that i i I hope for for all of our students who graduate from Rutgers University, Newark. I would say for law,
00:38:05
Speaker
I would hope that we are graduating students who have, or graduates, who have agency in the world of, in the legal world, who have agency, who walk out with privilege to be able to say, there are things that work well and there are things that are not working well and that they're going to use their expertise to to improve how we how we do law, how we administer it, how we create laws, all kinds of things about procedures and policies. And, you know, I hope that they walk out saying, I am... very well prepared, but I have a right to be in this space and and do so unapologetically. Because the way that we transform our students internally, and we provide them with the tools that they need to excel in any um areas of law, we also have to make sure that the agency is there, that they have a sense of power and privilege to go out and change what is not working. Instead of
00:39:14
Speaker
simply conforming right to what is not working and perpetuating the same problems. So that's my hope and wish. Certainly it's about the academic rigor and preparation, but you're already doing a lot of that well. But it is also about the psychology of our graduates.
00:39:31
Speaker
How do they feel when they walk out and when they go into those spaces in order to practice? We want them to walk out with the sense that they're there to make a difference. and that they will do the right things that are necessary for the systems in place, but they will also improve systems so that they work for all.
00:39:49
Speaker
i I hope for the same thing. I hope that we are that we are empowering our students as agents of change and that they that they will take seriously their role in improving systems and and creating systems that work for all people. um so So that is great to see that that our our our visions are aligned there in terms of the kinds of graduates that we're producing. And we are. We're producing leaders who go out into their various fields, whether it's whether it's government service or legal services work or ah law firm work in the private sector. ah
00:40:25
Speaker
our Our alums tend to rise to the top and become leaders in in their arena. And so i I like to think that we're preparing them for that role. Oh, indeed, you are.
00:40:37
Speaker
and And you mentioned earlier um our publicly engaged scholarship and and how we at Rutgers Newark have a commitment to publicly engaged scholarship. You obviously are no stranger to the anchor institution model, and we've talked about your your prior institution, which certainly embodies many of the same commitments.
00:40:59
Speaker
And you you led North Carolina A&T's process to – to be recognized as an anchor institution by the Association of Public and Land-Grant Universities. up How do you envision building on the legacy of Rutgers Newark as an anchor institution during your time here?
00:41:22
Speaker
You know, building on that legacy, and again, we already have ah quite quite a strong um anchor position and anchor practice here at Rutgers University Newark, but one thing is what I had mentioned earlier. We need to absolutely couple our anchor ah knowledge and capabilities with our research capabilities and do so in a way that we are engaging, like you said, in community engaged scholarship that advances the community and advances the university together. There's more that we can do in that area. I think there's more we can do to, one of the things that I did at North Carolina A&T in terms of the APLU
00:42:03
Speaker
you anchor designation, is made sure that the argument could be made around innovation and economic prosperity. The whole point of being an anchor institution is that you partner in such a way with the community that you can address problems in new and different ways when others are not thinking about it that way because they haven't adequately partnered. And so innovation emerges, right, from having authentic partnerships and being authentically engaged in the community. The community teaches us, we we teach the community, and together we create something new. So the innovation part is what I would like for us to scale up more. It's one thing to be community engaged. It's another thing to be innovatively
00:42:54
Speaker
ah innovative and community engaged at the same time. And then the economic prosperity aspect. So that's where I want to also take us to this. to we we we We certainly, we we have not really assessed it in that way. We have not looked at economic impact and economic prosperity metrics associated with our anchor institution position. And so there are opportunities there for us to assess. And we're already looking at beginning to that process. of looking at how our role as an anchor institution has initially influenced the economy of the city of Newark, the region and the state of New Jersey. But now we're going to dig deeper to look at, oh you know, how much more we can do to make sure that these economies around us prosper in various ways because of the anchor position and also the research and creative works that we will
00:43:51
Speaker
couple with that with that with the community. So, you know, innovation, economic prosperity, that's the next level I think we need to get. ah we're We're partly in a position where we have the capabilities. It's just that we need to find a way to organize our approach a little more and then start measuring more deeply what we do and then scal make sure that we're scaling up.
00:44:19
Speaker
I don't know if that makes sense. but It absolutely does. It absolutely does. and it it it makes me very excited to see the changes that will that will come in the in the next you know three to five years in terms of of measuring that impact um in the community and and also recognizing the synergy between what we learn from the community and contribute to the community. There's there's something um really remarkable about that relationship. Oh, indeed. You know, i I do want to go back to your example. I forgot the name of the program with entrepreneurs and transactional law where you're helping them to. Yeah. Imagine what that does for the economy. I mean, goodness, you're helping entrepreneurs understand, you know, contracts, and you know, whatever. and and
00:45:08
Speaker
And transactions and and giving them agency because they you'rere we're providing the knowledge. the know-how to do it. We're learning from them too about what their, you know, what their resources are, what they have. And we're pulling together and saying, we're going to empower you with knowledge to be able to engage in transactions that work towards the benefit of what you're trying to do as an entrepreneur for the economy.
00:45:35
Speaker
Right. So so the the economic line of influence there is already established. And that is truly scholarship, um community engaged scholarship and a true partnership. You're that entrepreneur program. So, i yeah you know, I haven't read enough about it that I can say anything more deeply. But on the surface that I've seen so far. That is a good example of where we need to go. You're absolutely right. I think it's a great example of of how we can have a positive impact on the the economics of the community in which we live and work. um and And so that is exciting. And I think we can do more than what we're currently doing. um
00:46:18
Speaker
And and i look forward to to seeing how we build from there. Now, my my last question for you is is one seeking advice, advice for future law students. What what advice would you give to to a future law student who who aspires to enter into law school, to develop leadership capabilities through law school, and perhaps enter a career in public service? You know, I would tell a prospective law student to... ah
00:46:51
Speaker
come in with an open mind and understand the many different manifestations of law. Students, i you know like like with any other discipline, will come in with a a very narrow mindset of what law is, what it does, um how it operates. ah And I say come in with a very open mind and also come in with a sense of finding ways to build what you wish wish to do after your degree of building that around your passions.
00:47:24
Speaker
You know, if you end up saying, I'm just going to go into law, you know, areas of law that I can make the most money. ah If you end up in a space where your values are not represented, then you will do more damage than good.
00:47:40
Speaker
So my thoughts are, as and as I would with any discipline, find the thing that matches what you love in law. Do that. And then once you, what as you are learning about all the aspects of law that you have to learn about, as you prepare to take the bar exam, et cetera, just make sure that you are really, really internalizing the knowledge. Don't just be a visitor in your educational process. Don't just sit there and say, okay, I have to take this class and then I'm going to take the exam and then I'm going to do this and that. Don't be a visitor. Be a real agent. be a real Have a real presence. I always say don't just be present. Have a presence as a student. And engage with the faculty. I mean, these are professors who have i worlds of knowledge, worlds of knowledge, and all of which can't be taught in the classroom because there's no time. But the more you engage with them, even outside of the classroom, there's so much that you can pick up on that aren't in the textbooks. You know, it's not in the textbooks. It's not ah in the reading assignment. It wasn't discussed in class, but engaging with your faculty, the experts in these areas, that's where you can also find your passion. For me, were it not for a conversation I had with a faculty member in my junior year at the university, I would not have been able to to be on the path where I am now, particularly when it comes to my discipline of combining engineering and psychology. It wouldn't have happened. It simply wouldn't have happened. So just don't just be a visitor there. Don't just be present, but be have a real presence in the law school on your journey. And then the other thing I'll say is this law school is a special law school.
00:49:26
Speaker
Rutgers University, Newark, and you know Camden, it's one law school. But there's so much that you will gain that is unique, in particular because of our anchor personality. All right, because of our anchor personality. There's so much that you will get that you cannot get anywhere else.
00:49:45
Speaker
You won't get it at that level. So there's a combination of academic rigor and understanding of the importance of the community that is so that is done so well here.
00:49:59
Speaker
It can't be replicated anywhere else. So you but you if you go to another institution, sure, they have their areas of specialty. But our anchor partnership and ability to combine law and our anchor personality is unmatched in the world.
00:50:15
Speaker
So come here. Excellent. I could not agree more, Chancellor. And i i I tell students all the time, follow your passion. That's that's the important thing. um and And don't get sidetracked. you know I think there's so many things that pull law students in a different direction. But at the same time, keep an open mind. We see students who come in with a very narrow preconceived notion of what it means to be a lawyer. And then and then their eyes are opened throughout law school and having these different experiences of ah of what it means to be a lawyer. and And then they end up in a completely different track and a different field. So ah that's really important. And and I so appreciate your your vision for how the law school fits into ah your broader vision for for Rutgers Newark. um And we're we're absolutely thrilled that you're here. so
00:51:02
Speaker
Thank you for for joining us here in Rutgers, Newark. Thank you for joining us on the program today. And ah I wish you all the best. And I will, I'm sure, see you very soon. But thank you again for coming on. All right. Thank you so much. I appreciate you.
00:51:17
Speaker
The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large nationally known university with a personal small campus experience.
00:51:33
Speaker
Learn more by visiting us at law.rutgers.edu.