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S6E3: The Importance of Legal Writing, with Professor Ruth Anne Robbins
58 Plays5 hours ago
Professor of Law Ruth Anne Robbins, who received the 2023 Thomas F. Blackwell Memorial Award for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Legal Writing from the Association of Legal Writing Directors and the Legal Writing Institute, joins Dean Bond to share the story of her journey from studying science to teaching legal writing at Rutgers Law School.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:08
Speaker
You're listening to the Anthem Award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and dean of the law school, Joanna Bond.
Robbins' Background and Upbringing
00:00:24
Speaker
It gives me great pleasure today to welcome Professor Ruth Ann Robbins to the podcast. Ruth Ann, it's such a pleasure to have you on today. Will you begin by telling us a little bit about your origin story? I'm supposed to tell you the font that I'm using first.
00:00:40
Speaker
But by all means, please do. um Yes, today I'll be speaking in grand view. What are the best fonts? New additions. And so my origin story is um actually I grew up locally. um I grew up in Camden County um in Haddonfield.
Influence of Family on Career Path
00:00:58
Speaker
At the time I was one of only a few Jewish families in the town and only one of the few Democratic voting families in the town.
00:01:08
Speaker
um My mother was also one of the only mothers that worked. ah She was a professor at Penn, and she was actually first-gen college, I'm pretty sure. Her father went to community college for a couple of classes, but she was really She and her brother were first gen. My father actually came from a family that um helped founded the first agrarian Jewish society in South Jersey.
00:01:32
Speaker
um once so yeah so and he um He went to ah law school and instead of going to Big Law like his friends, he decided he liked small practice and he really fell in love with
Career Transition and Choice of Rutgers Law
00:01:44
Speaker
civil rights. so I got this education of um science and academics and civil rights as a you know growing up in this pretty conservative at the time town. That is fascinating. and and Do you feel like that experience informed the the work that you do today? Oh, absolutely. and so i mean i I went to Penn because I was a tuition kid and um majored in science because I was going to be a research scientist and ended up a lawyer. so you know I combined both my parents.
00:02:22
Speaker
Well, i I know that you have a bachelor's degree from Penn in biology. ah You were also a Westinghouse science scholar for your laboratory work. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? um So the Westinghouse thing was a fluke. I had spent a summer working in a lab. um and designing little experiments, or little experiments were designed for me because I was interested in it. And at the end, somebody said, hey, why don't you just throw your lab work into this competition, the Westinghouse Science Competition. And ah I didn't even pay any attention to the envelope that arrived at our house one day. And my mother found it and said, hey, did you open this? And I was like joking, saying, yeah, no, did I win? She opened it and went, yes. Yes, you did. you for That's great. Yes. And so a whole bunch of nice things happened from that. um And I thought I was going to have a PhD in one of the microsciences, microbiology, or something like that, would have been which would have been like my mother. um But I decided I liked the macro better. so And I liked thinking in words. And so um I also was graduating college right after the 1987
00:03:40
Speaker
crash. And so it was kind of pick a grad school to go hang out in for a while. So I picked law school. Right. Not a bad choice. Right. And then it turns out I actually liked it, which sort of surprised me and everybody.
Advice on Legal Careers and Communication Skills
00:03:52
Speaker
so That's great. Well, we are now the great beneficiaries of that choice. ah So I have to ask you one more question about Penn.
00:04:00
Speaker
I know you were in Penn's band and and you were you played the flute, right? Do you do you still play? so um So in marching band, you play piccolo because nobody can really hear a flute. right So um I don't still play. My daughter, my younger daughter made off with my flute and my piccolo. And she still does some playing and she she was always better at it than I ever was. So she has them.
00:04:24
Speaker
Oh, that's great. Well, at least you're keeping it in the family. Yeah. And and what persuaded you to choose Rutgers? um So a couple of things. One was Rutgers gave me a lot of money and really wanted me to come. I think they really sort of liked to my background and my LSAT score. um And my brother was starting college, and my parents were saying, you're going to be taking on a lot of debt. If you, I i had been admitted to a well-known school in a large Midwestern city that is not the University of Chicago.
00:04:58
Speaker
um and My parents were like, really, you're going to follow some boy and take on all that debt. And so I was like, you're right, I'll stay home. So I went to Rutgers. And then I, I ended up marrying the boy. But that's great. Well, all is well, it ends well. Yeah, that's fantastic. And and you graduated magna cum laude from from Rutgers Law. And I know you you joined us as an adjunct professor back in 1996.
00:05:27
Speaker
What advice would you give to students who want to go to law school from the standpoint of both an alum and a professor here with us?
00:05:39
Speaker
um so Remember, I kind of walked into law school as somebody who thought she was going to be a scientist. um and so The things about law school that surprised me were, you are a communicator by profession, and so you better learn to communicate well. um and As a professor, um I would say the same thing is that I hope you like communicating because that's what you'll be doing, but for your clients.
Passion for Teaching Legal Writing
00:06:01
Speaker
um and so you'll but Although I knew the scientific method, so I knew a lot of logic or reasoning, I really solidified for me in law school. And so I really like the way I came out of both scientific thinking and legal thinking. And so I would say to people, like you know, they always say that you're your mind changes. I think it changes for the better.
00:06:27
Speaker
Well, it it's certainly a perfect blend between your your scientific background and your interest in in writing. ah you You were awarded last year the the Thomas Blackwell Memorial Award, which- Wait, wait, wait, I have to put my prop on. Yes. Oh, wonderful. That's great. Thank you for modeling that for us. Thank you. It recognizes your work in legal writing and legal storytelling. And your nominators called you quote unquote, the consummate teacher. What is your favorite part of teaching?
00:07:03
Speaker
um um So I get to teach the first years and their first days of law school and I also get to teach law students later on and I really love watching the transformation from the first day when I'm using pieces of fruit in a basket to explain you know what it means to be rule-based to the point where I get to see students at the end um write briefs that make a difference for clients or ah work on legislation that really gets enacted. And the transformation that happens in between, and even the transformation that happens between the first day of law school and the end of the first semester or the end of the second semester is just amazing to watch.
00:07:48
Speaker
I'm sure it is, and and you really play a transformative role in terms of developing students' legal writing abilities. ah I want to drill down on that for a second. you You've received a number of awards in the field of legal writing, of which you are truly a pioneer.
00:08:08
Speaker
and For those of those of our listeners who aren't familiar with law and the legal field, can you explain why legal writing and our legal writing program at Rutgers is is so important to legal education? Yeah, legal writing and sometimes talk about how it's a really misnamed field. right It really it sounds like ah a field about composition and it's actually a field about lawyering. So it's it's the first place in the first year program where you meet a client, although it um is a simulated client, and you have to analyze a problem that the client is facing and come up with what you think either to counsel or to advocate what the best legal solution given the facts are and really help the student, you know and I'm sorry, that the client get through their legal story. And so, ah and
00:09:06
Speaker
That's what we
Integration of Writing and Clinical Education
00:09:07
Speaker
do. but We communicate on behalf of clients, whether we're counseling them or advocating for them or advocating for large scale change. It's all about communication. And so that's what we're doing. In a legal writing program. What makes the Rutgers legal writing program special is that we have for decades had close ties to clinical education.
00:09:28
Speaker
So the professors who are working with the third years, and you know we've called it this orientation to graduation continuum where we really try and connect the ideas of in the first year legal writing program, you meet clients who are simulated clients and learn how to work for them. And then in your third year, unless you're in a second year clinic, ah you're working with the actual clients, but the lessons you've learned are the same and continuing.
00:09:58
Speaker
That's fantastic, a really helpful explanation. Thanks for that. And speaking of clinics, you founded our domestic violence clinic back in 2000. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that is and and also what your biggest success has been so far within that clinic?
00:10:15
Speaker
Yeah, so actually, um the clinic itself opened in 2002. In 2000, I took over the domestic violence project, which is a the volunteer where we provide legal information at the courthouse. And that is, I think, one of the longest running programs in the state in terms of providing assistance to people in domestic violence restraining order system.
00:10:39
Speaker
um The clinic is where third-year students practicing under the third-year practice rule can actually go in and help people who are seeking final restraining orders. so The students are handling what are little trials, um direct and cross-examination, introduction of evidence, and so they have to put all of their trial advocacy skills to use, and they're also helping people who are in really difficult situations trying to get them in a better place.
00:11:05
Speaker
um and That format of the clinic has pretty much stayed the same since its founding, but the best thing that came out of it was the hiring of Victoria Chase to be the head of the domestic violence clinic at this point in time.
Appellate Advocacy and Real-World Preparation
00:11:23
Speaker
and so Although I didn't do the hiring, in fact, the people who hired Victoria were a little afraid to introduce her to me just in case I scared her off.
00:11:30
Speaker
um but That seems unlikely. um but But I mean, she has modified it and made it so much better. And she's just fantastic um as both a professor and as an attorney. um And she's really taken it in wonderful directions.
00:11:47
Speaker
She is amazing. I could not agree more. ah Well, it's nice to know that that the clinic is in great hands now. ah Let's also plug the Hunter program that you redesigned at Rutgers Law. Can you tell us what it is and how it prepares students for the courtroom?
00:12:07
Speaker
So i'm I'm not allowed to call it a moot court because Professor Barbara Gratov will like come, she's across the hall from me, she will come and throw things at me. We don't want that. So what makes this different is it's an appellate advocacy program that um was, it I was given really specific goals when I was told to redesign it. Like the dean at the time and the academic dean at the time were like, you know, here are your 10 marching.
00:12:32
Speaker
ah Orders and you will make this work. And so it's a program designed actually to bridge between first year legal writing and clinic and um it the first semester is all about persuasive writing and it brings in elements from one of our other courses which is you know all about rhetoric and the scholarship of the discipline. So students are working in Paris on a large file and they also have to learn persuasive technique so it's not just learning the area of law but it's actually like
00:13:06
Speaker
the psychology behind persuasion and then in the spring they're working on public speaking and yes it ends with an oral argument competition which most people think is what hunter is about but that's actually the last quarter of the of the whole program and so will and yeah it's it's designed to be really hefty and students have gotten job offers from the oral arguments because they do so well I'm not surprised. I had the opportunity to sit in and watch the the Hunter competition finals and the students were unbelievably prepared and so impressive in delivering their arguments. ah It really, it really was quite astonishing. Yeah. There's one other thing I want to say about it is that the case files that are used, um, that I started Professor Godelff continues are also really fact dependent. And so most moot courts are very,
00:13:57
Speaker
you know split in the circuits or the very legal issue oriented. These case files have require students to really understand an appellate record and use an appellate record.
00:14:09
Speaker
That's fantastic. These are skills that they're going to need as as lawyers. And so it it goes a long way toward preparing them for the practice of law.
Legislative Reform Clinic and Student Impact
00:14:18
Speaker
That's wonderful. Tell us a little bit about the new legislative and policy advocacy drafting clinic. It's not new in the sense that you've already been doing it for quite some time, but it's it's now being formed as a clinic. Can you can you tell us more about that?
00:14:34
Speaker
So um this actually started as a project that students asked me to do, where um students had asked had read an article that I wrote about a project we tried in the domestic violence clinic. um We wrote an amicus brief to the New Jersey Supreme Court asking them to to take a case on that would address this issue of right to counsel, right to civil counsel in domestic violence restraining order hearings. And the Supreme Court denied the petition for certification, but they wrote an opinion about it. and um so I wrote an article because it's really rare to see a court opinion about the denial of certification. um and Students reading it later said, why don't we take it to the legislature? Why don't we try? and so as at First, as a directed research project, we approach some legislators and sadly, that project has not come to fruition yet.
00:15:32
Speaker
But as part of it, we I started teaching a class um where we took on other projects, and eventually they became real enough that the clinic wanted to claim this as their own. And I actually really thought it belonged inside the clinic. So now it's going to reopen as a clinic, um working on issues mostly in the gender justice space with the New Jersey legislature and associated projects.
00:15:57
Speaker
That is fantastic. And I love that that this really stemmed from conversations that the students brought to you. where We're teaching them how to be advocates, and they are advocating for systemic reform. That's wonderful. ah Your students have had some impressive victories in ah the the state legislature recently, which have changed New Jersey laws. Is there one in particular that stands out?
00:16:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and I had to sift between a couple. I mean, so I'll talk briefly about one, and then I'll talk about the one that really made the difference. So the one that I think gets the the most press, because it's easiest to understand, is the invasive medical exam, which on Facebook, you read about is unauthorized pelvic exam. And so, um and this was just a small issue that nobody else in the state was really paying attention to. And but it was hot on social media. um and We were instrumental in having New Jersey be the 16th state to um prohibit doctors and their students from doing invasive, mostly pelvic exams without the patient's consent while they were under anesthesia. That's the one that gets that's easiest to understand. The one that I think is the most
00:17:12
Speaker
pervasive, like the most changing, really changes New Jersey's legal landscape in a positive way, is something that was called originally SASPA, the Sexual Assault Survivor Protection Act of 2015 that I also worked on. um And that just got modified.
00:17:28
Speaker
And it's a restraining order system for people who are not in domestic relationships. So it really covers things like sexual assault on campus with people who are not in dating relationships. um And it's now been expanded with the work of students to include stalking and cyber harassment. so um And it means that students have and other people who are not in relationships have a recourse. They can go to court and get a restraining order against somebody who's been stalking them. And the restraining order works in pretty much the same way as a domestic violence restraining order.
Pride in Teaching and Legislative Work
00:18:06
Speaker
Well, that seems to fill a really important gap in her protection. ah Well, you may have just answered this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What legal accomplishment are you most proud of?
00:18:20
Speaker
So I'm really proud of the legislative work, but I'm also really proud of the scholarship work I did because I opened up two new VISTAs for other legal scholars and that you know talking about legal storytelling as something more than trial advocacy, as something that we should be doing across the board and really diving deep into what is storytelling and what is legal storytelling.
00:18:44
Speaker
I'm really proud that we're coming up on our 10th Biennial Conference, so 20 years of conferences that are international. um and I'm also proud that I also opened the door to having a conversation of how ugly our legal documents are and how we need to actually pay attention to some document design principles. That's wonderful. Give us just a quick glimpse at what that means. What's ah what's a design principle?
00:19:11
Speaker
um Instead of using all caps and headings, you should use boldface and sentence case. um And so why are we using Times New Roman, seriously? um so ah Why are we double spacing? It's not readable. So I know these are- That also puts into context your your ah joke about the font when you when you when we first began. Yep.
00:19:38
Speaker
so If you weren't teaching at Rutgers Law School, what do you think your career would be? What what what would be your plan B? I've actually thought long and hard about, you know, it would be teaching somewhere else, but also it would probably be working full time on the legislative and policy stuff. um But honestly, it would be wishing I was teaching at Rutgers Law.
00:20:03
Speaker
That's great. I completely understand that. ah Now, this last question might be a tough one. I know i know my answer to this question. Is it true that you make the best raspberry blueberry jam? Wait, I'm going to put my tiara on again. ah Well deserved in this case. Yes, actually, my mother taught me how to make it. And so now I've taught my daughter, so it is a family business.
00:20:27
Speaker
That's wonderful. Well, ah having been a beneficiary of some of your jam, I can attest to that. The answer is yes. ah And finally, I like to add just an open-ended question. Is there anything else you'd like to to add to our conversation today before we wrap up? You're putting me on the spot. I am.
00:20:50
Speaker
No. Okay, fantastic. I'm sure you teach- Wait, wait. Should I've had something? What do people say? No, no, that's perfect. I mean, one of the things that I'm sure you teach your legal writing students is to be concise so that you're modeling that behavior for us. Can I actually re-answer it then? Yes. No one it's time to cut off the document. So if you ask a question again, I'll say, yes, no one it's time to end.
00:21:17
Speaker
All right, fantastic. That's great. Well, thank you so much for being with us today Ruth Ann. It's really a pleasure to talk to you and and ah I appreciate you taking the time. so Thank you for having me. i I am honored you chose me. Absolutely. Well, take care. Okay, thanks.
00:21:36
Speaker
The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more today by visiting us at law.rutgers.edu.