Transcript
Speaker: You're listening to the Anthem Award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and Dean of the Law School, Joanna Bond.
Speaker: We're starting this season with a Secret Lives of Lawyers episode, where we speak with lawyers who excel in law as well as other industries. Today's guest is Rutgers law professor Adam Scales, an expert in administrative law, insurance, and torts, and an accomplished fine arts photographer.
Speaker: Adam, can you begin by telling us your origin story?
Speaker: I wondered how to and interpret that question. If I should talk about my parents and where they met ah or some some formative experience of my life. I'm not sure. so i'll just You define the the starting point.
Speaker: It's ok open for interpretation. ah Well, i am originally from Brockton, Massachusetts, ah which has been home to a number of prominent boxers over the years, as well as Sacco and Vanzetti.
Speaker: um And I'm a fan of the I grew up there. ah my My parents, ah I think they they got married about 55 years ago. They're no longer here, but it was quite a long time ago where they met in the the computer department at Filene's where my father worked and my mother was a key punch operator.
Speaker: That's fantastic. You might have to explain what a key punch operator is. I guess I do. So when and computers were ah becoming mainstream on the backend side, the business processing side of things, ah the way you would instruct a computer would be to create a kind of a thing like a manila um envelope folder type card, which would have ah holes punched in in a binary pattern.
Speaker: Those were the instructions for the computer. And you would load hundreds or thousands of these cards ah into these mainframe computers ah to tell them to ah discount inventory by 10% or do something else.
Speaker: That is fascinating. It's hard to imagine that that we progressed from that to now the world of AI, but that's that's the topic for another show. But not many of our listeners probably remember Filene's, but I certainly do.
Speaker: How long did your dad work there? ah He started in the, I guess, mid-1960s and was there until the late nineteen eighty s Fantastic.
Speaker: That's great. All right. So bring us back to um when your parents met. What about after that? So, yeah scandalously, my father was 30, my mother was 16. It was a different time ah yeah many, many years ago.
Speaker: And they lived in Boston ah for a few years. I came along after a couple years later. ah We moved to Brockton because of the crime in Boston.
Speaker: ah Brockton was... not quite a bedroom community of Boston, but it was kind of regarded that way. it's about 25 miles away. um And I spent most of my childhood there.
Speaker: Excellent. Okay, that's great. and And you eventually made your way to University of Michigan, correct? Correct. Yes, I was you know moving moving west.
Speaker: I stopped for a few years at UMass Amherst, graduated on a Sunday, and the first law school class was that Thursday.
Speaker: Wow. so You didn't waste any time. No time. No time. we had We had a summer starter program back then, a little bit different from Rutgers program. ah And spent my my three years at Michigan and then continuing my tour of M states.
Speaker: I went on to Minnesota where I practiced for a couple of years and clerked for some judges. And then a letter from oh my my my mentor at Michigan, ah whose name you may know, Kent Siverud.
Speaker: Yes. He wrote me a nice little note and suggested I think about teaching. And I gave that some thought and found the the the idea an agreeable one.
Speaker: And after a time, i made my way back to the East Coast and Washington and Lee in Lexington, Virginia, which is a place I feel that you know well.
Speaker: Yes. Incidentally, for our listeners, Adam and I met at Washington and Lee when I i eventually took a teaching job there as well. Yeah, that's going back a long way, isn't it?
Speaker: Yes, I have just completed 14 years at Rutgers, and that's exactly the length of time I was at Washington and Lee. Fantastic.
Speaker: Okay, that's great. So I want to go back for a moment to your law school career. ah What do you think is the most important thing that you learned at University of Michigan Law School?
Speaker: Tough to say. was certainly by By the fact that ah there are a lot of smart people out there. We had a a sterling class.
Speaker: um you know but My classmates are very accomplished, some of whom you certainly know ah in our profession. And, the you know, and i should say like I count you among the very accomplished alums of University of Michigan Law School. So you're in good company there, Adam.
Speaker: ah Thank you. um Anyway, so so that was that was ah I think I don't know how much I appreciate this at the time, ah but, you know undergraduate was a bit of a cruise.
Speaker: ah You know, certainly felt felt very confident in my abilities as an undergraduate and coming to to law school at that time.
Speaker: It was an entirely different pool ah to splash in. And I think i think that was that was good. ah In terms of ah legal study or the profession, you know, I'd always wanted to be an attorney.
Speaker: since about the fifth grade, but I'd never thought clearly about what it is I would do as an attorney. I just didn't think about that. Am i going to be a prosecutor? I going to work for a big law firm?
Speaker: I didn't really know. as i just got into line ah for for the jobs, ah like everyone else, and you made my way to a well-regarded firm.
Speaker: um But yeah I've often... I've often looked back on that and wondered whether some greater intentionality would have served me well. I actually don't think the answer is yes, ah because in general, I have ah succeeded in my life by but doing the exact opposite of what is expected and sometimes ah ah you know feverishly asks of me.
Speaker: ah And, um you know, Of course, in law school, you're maturing, but the world is a big place and law is a big profession.
Speaker: And I simply, if I had, quote, known what I wanted to do when I walked into the University of Michigan, almost certainly would be wrong about that. Right.
Speaker: No, there's so much discovery that happens during law school. I'm not at all surprised to hear that. wit What drew you to a specialization in insurance law and tort law?
Speaker: So I mentioned that I began in the summer, right after graduation from UMass Amherst.
Speaker: And the summer started program at Michigan at the time. you taught you taught so You took torts and property. So I had Jim Crear for property, who's extremely famous and quite a personality.
Speaker: um i had Rebecca Eisenberg, maybe maybe somewhat less famous as a torts professor. ah her Her real field is intellectual property. But of course, these were my my introductions to the law.
Speaker: ah And... ah you know It's a very intense experience. And I found, particularly with torts, um having majored ah in philosophy, that the fundamental question of torts is always and forever, what is justice?
Speaker: like And that that question is one I've never tired of. ah yeah No matter how many times you see quite similar cases or maybe wonder where the law is going, ah that question is driving it at the end.
Speaker: With insurance law, Well, there were two things that perhaps set me on this path. ah One is the aforementioned Dean Sivirud, whom I had for both Sipro and insurance law.
Speaker: And he was ah just ah just a magnificent Jedi teacher. I also, we used a ah textbook ah by Ken Abraham, ah who I've gotten to know and is kind of as a friend, as ah a giant in the field.
Speaker: And I found reading this textbook, I was frequently swearing at it, saying that this or that case was just wrong. And this struck me as an intriguing indicator of some engagement.
Speaker: A level of passion. Yes. um And, you know, I, I, was much more to do with this in law school. and even in practice, i think I very rarely did any insurance cases at my law firm, but, um, a little bit later when I clerked, um,
Speaker: I we would have cases at the federal level often involving ERISA, which is an exceedingly complex statute with a 50 page index.
Speaker: ah And, ah you know, my my clerks would kind of shy away from the risk of cases. But I said, no, no, please send them my way. And one of the best compliments I've ever gotten ah was from my my senior clerk at the time.
Speaker: I wrote this opinion for the judge and he said, Adam, You're possibly the only person in the world who make ERISA preemption sound fascinating. but That is a huge compliment, I have to say.
Speaker: i i would not myself, I wouldn't put myself in the category of those who find ERISA fascinating. So that's impressive to me. So I want to move now to Rutgers Law School, since that's where we both are currently.
Speaker: What drew you to Rutgers Law School specifically? Can you tell us a little bit more about how you came to Rutgers? Sure. ah I guess I'll start with the, there's a kind of a professional side um and and then the personal side.
Speaker: ah So my God, about 15, 16 years ago, I gave a talk out west somewhere. um And I can't recall the subject. i was probably talking about um ah credit default swaps or something like that, which is essentially a a form of insurance.
Speaker: And I did this talk and I got an email ah very terse. ah Hey, that that was a ah nice talk.
Speaker: you know, regards Jay Feynman. I had no idea who this Feynman fellow was, but you know, I'm always happy to have a little praise. right And a year or so later,
Speaker: I was at a ah workshop here in Philly ah that was put on by Tom Baker. It's a recurring series of you the talks with law professors and historians. all kind of He really assembles his great ah gatherings of people.
Speaker: And, you we're talking, I think it was a coffee break or something, and we're just kind of chatting. And i I suddenly realized that this person sitting next to me is that Jay Fineman fella.
Speaker: Right. And, you know, we start start chatting. And at the at the time, I think I was, I was, I just wrapped up a renovation of my house in Lexington.
Speaker: haven't decided not to move to Charlottesville in search of a a bigger, a bigger town and different experiences. And, From that very slight introduction to my life and interest, ah Jay got the idea that I might be interested in coming to Rutgers.
Speaker: ah The conversation really had not focused on that at all. ah But when he called a few weeks later and said, hey, what do think about it? I remember vividly ah hitting up Google Maps on the phone as I'm talking to him and I see, wait a minute, Camden, three miles from Philadelphia. Jay, tell me more.
Speaker: but That's great. I'm so glad. I'm glad Jay had the vision to reach out to you and and make that happen. That's fantastic. He he certainly did. And so the yeah the the professional side of it – Jay is a giant in the field of insurance and many other things. He's just such a a widely written fellow with respect to many aspects of law and a great, great colleague.
Speaker: and so There was the prospect, which is quite unusual for a teacher of insurance, ah to be at a school with not not just one other insurance scholar, ah but two ah with our our colleague Rick Swedlock. That is, if you put the University of Connecticut to one side, which has its own insurance LLM, and even then, many of their faculty are adjuncts,
Speaker: ah you know there's no other school that could conceivably have three different professors teaching insurance law. And this provides all kinds of opportunities for batting ideas around. And as you know, we have our are extremely efficiently run ah Rutgers Center for Risk and Responsibility. We put on occasional programs.
Speaker: And that's just quite fun. On the personal side, as you know, Lexington, Virginia, a town of 7,000. It's a place that invites introspection.
Speaker: ah And after you know a decade plus there, i began to despair. That's a lot of introspection.
Speaker: lot of introspection, exactly. i I doubted that my my my life would materially change much if I stayed in Lexington and I I just thought I would rather have a new life um and and the prospect of Italian food. ah and so Really good Italian food, right? Yes.
Speaker: ah Yes. ah When Jay and I went out to dinner the night of my on-campus interview, i said, well, we got to go. It's Italian. And we go to a place in in Jersey and that knowing what wondering if Jay would be up for it, was listening attentive. I said, so how's the view in this joint?
Speaker: He says, best in the city. And that's how I knew. Right. I found my people. Clear. That's a clear sign. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That's great. Well, let me ask you this. Can you share a particular case or or a moment that that deeply impacted your perspective as a law professor?
Speaker: i was thinking about this question. And... you know I'm not sure of the following answer, but I'll start with this. It's kind of odd answer. Actually, something that and but Professor King ah would find interesting.
Speaker: um ah so I'm an avid reader, and I tend to enjoy histories. 15, 20 years ago, i read the Fatal Shore by robber shoes Now, this is about the founding of Australia, ah a story I barely understood.
Speaker: It's a magnificent book. And in reading it, um, one could not help but be struck by the role of punishment ah in creating that society.
Speaker: ah And one had occasion ah to think about the, mean, as one ever should, but the the the human dimension. And what I mean is the extent to which that that system exists
Speaker: warped all who came into contact with it, not not just the people on the the bottom, ah but the people who are nominally running it. Now, I don't teach criminal law, ah and you my my own views on this subject are ah probably not not those ah that would predict this sort of answer.
Speaker: But I was very moved by this account of man's inhumanity to man. And I really found myself questioning my own priors um about the the the role of the state and and punishment. not Maybe not so much the the abstract...
Speaker: fairness of the concept, but how that concept would play out in the real world, ah given the crooked timber of humanity. Now, again, that's a fairly...
Speaker: i mean so give me a broad inference for a narrow topic. ah But da I often reflect on this book in in trying to ah understand how different legal rules and systems will will play out in the real world.
Speaker: No, that's incredibly compelling, Adam. and And you're absolutely right. ah Professor King would would love that. ah this For those of you who don't know, Professor King teaches with us at Rutgers and is also married to me. He's my husband.
Speaker: ah but But he opened his sentencing class yesterday with this question of of punishment and the meaning of punishment. ah So yes, I will recommend the book to him.
Speaker: That sounds fantastic. ah what What would you say... is your favorite aspect of teaching? what What makes you excited to get up and go in the morning when you've got class?
Speaker: You know, course, I've been teaching like you for some time. And in some ways, the the blue may be off the rose. um You know, it's it's unusual for something completely unexpected to happen, which would be true anywhere.
Speaker: right But so I think I will never tire of that moment of stillness when the light comes on in a student's mind.
Speaker: ah And you realize that that student's understanding torts, of the law, of expression will be forever altered.
Speaker: By this moment, I mean we have you know some influence over our students. They will go on to do many great important things, yeah largely ah forgetting us.
Speaker: But every now and then we have the opportunity to play a small role in changing the way someone else sees the world. That's extremely humbling and gratifying.
Speaker: It is. It's so gratifying. You're absolutely right. And and I love that moment when when you realize the student has has altered their way of thinking about the law or the world. it's It is gratifying, no doubt about it.
Speaker: And I want to move now to a question about your specific area of expertise. How would you describe... Are you going to ask me about the Federal Reserve? because No. Because I was thinking about this question late last night.
Speaker: I've got some work to do. You do. You do. Absolutely. We can talk about that later. but But I was asking specifically about tort and injury law in America. What's what's your take on the current state of tort law?
Speaker: one day i'm going to write a piece with a ah little a preamble that begins with the closing of an article that was written about 30 years ago. um and It's called the got The Closing of the Products Liability Frontier. hope I'm getting that ah title right.
Speaker: Okay. um or no Sorry, sorry, sorry. The graying of products liability. Now, products liability, just like it sounds, is when you you have a ah cause of action against the manufacturer of a defective car or a pharmaceutical that doesn't work, et etc.
Speaker: Super fascinating stuff. um And one of the reasons why I like torts, really cool stories. Anyway, this article written about 30 years ago essentially said, you know,
Speaker: the the kind of great era of foment has passed. um You know, we thought that the system might go in certain directions and when in others, it's probably kind of settling into middle age.
Speaker: um And it was quite an elogical set of observations. I think i think the author i kind of helped for a little more little more from this era of law.
Speaker: But It's such a close with this very, this moving description of the the machine of products liability ah operating more efficiently.
Speaker: ah But glimpses of justice are more and more difficult to discern ah in the blur. yeah It's a beautiful piece of writing. Well, thinking about this 30 years that,
Speaker: after that I'm struck by um struck by the fact that what was formative for me and developing my understanding of the field of torts Things like products liability, those really are receding into the past. Not that there isn't a lot of ah litigation and certainly companies doing bad things, but the is that where the energy of the tort system is these days?
Speaker: No, I'm not sure the tort system has quite found its it's next great um system ah ah upending challenge.
Speaker: ah Products liability require the tort system to reconsider everything I thought it knew. Okay. That process has played out for a half century.
Speaker: What's next? I mean, have we is it the the end of tort history? ah Have we just arrived at this app perfectly functioning machine where hopefully we can glimpse some justice ah in between its wheels?
Speaker: yeah We continue to birth new torts, which tend to look like old torts in new bottles. ah at Nothing unusual about that. right And um I think...
Speaker: I think the orientation of tort law is very, very slowly changing from a physicalist one where, okay, the injury is some physical harm that fell to someone from a machine with parts.
Speaker: And we're moving to... A more incorporeal notion of injury, which in some ways ah might look like something we've talked about for for many decades, ah the role of emotional harm ah in tort law, which has always been quite contested and is really quite like complicated.
Speaker: Increasingly, our concept of a defective machine ah is going to look like something that's software. ah And the injuries ah may or may not register in the physical world.
Speaker: And they may or may not do so with the same directness. As was the case when, you know, a crane breaks and falls on a workman. And, you know, I think as we as the tort system begin, you know, grapples with these, we'll once again have to reconsider lots of things that we know or think we know.
Speaker: about how the system works, about who should be in charge of tort law. um I think ah we we may see the the the common law aspect of tort law ah gradually diminished.
Speaker: Fascinating. Well, i think I think you just answered your own question about what's next. You've certainly given us given us a preview of of what we can look for in the future. Well, that's fascinating.
Speaker: So typically on this podcast, when we have faculty on, we ask them, what would you be doing if you weren't teaching a law? And in this case, we actually know the answer to that because we know that you're an accomplished photographer.
Speaker: ah But will you tell us a little bit about how you got into photography in the first place? Sure. Yeah. You know, unsurprisingly, my my father was a bit of an amateur photographer.
Speaker: And as a kid, you know, would play with his cameras. And I certainly had a couple of, you know, tiny cameras as a kid, but I'd completely forgotten about it.
Speaker: ah So one way of beginning this story is to say the art form that i know, them well, now I guess it's photography I know the most about, but the art form that I consume the most would be film.
Speaker: Uh, and I've always loved movies. And, uh, as I began to develop as a photographer, I could really see the impact, uh, of, of that informal education in shaping my understanding of storytelling, of composition, obviously of light.
Speaker: Um, and, uh, and that's really a happy, um, I'm gonna come up with a happy accent. So ah just about nine years ago, I was going to go to i was going to Tanzania um on a safari.
Speaker: ah It was kind of a a spur of the moment thing. ah And i had I was on sabbatical. I had a lot of time. ah And I thought, OK, I'm going to go to Tanzania and and meet up with a friend of mine there.
Speaker: So I needed to buy a camera and a book on how to use it because i had i had no idea how these things It's digital, certainly. It's not film.
Speaker: um And I didn't know much about you know what makes a good photograph like that. Anyway, ah so I bought this book. I practiced ah for weeks and weeks.
Speaker: Facebook ah periodically ah shows me one of my my first portraits, which was of a character from The Simpsons. And I like to take that and compare it with one of my more recent portraits, which I'm happy to say ah betrays ah considerable progress since then. Always a good sign, yes.
Speaker: um Anyway, so go off to the safari and I took about 4,000 pictures over the course of a week.
Speaker: And I also took mo a bunch of them in and in manual mode because I had learned that that was the way to really learn what were doing. And I learned several things about myself.
Speaker: One was I had in incredible capacity for the hours and hours of often painful boredom it took to wait for the right moment for a good picture.
Speaker: Oh, that's great. that's ah That's a great thing to discover about yourself. um And I also began to appreciate that photography is this union of art and science.
Speaker: very nicely, it engages both halves of your brain. And as a law professor, you know, of course, i I make my living with words.
Speaker: I quite enjoy them. However, i also relish the idea of not having to say anything, which a good photograph ah will allow you to do.
Speaker: Anyway, came back from the trip, And on the ah my last full day of the trip, we went to the Ngorogoro Crater in Tanzania.
Speaker: it's It was incredibly peaceful and quiet and vast. And at one point, I saw an elephant who was in this colorful field.
Speaker: just by himself, which was odd. We'd seen elephants early on the trip. They were in a herd, a family. right This guy was just by himself. And I wondered, did he get lost? Does he no longer have a family? what's what's he What's he doing? What's his day look like?
Speaker: And I took a picture of him with the majestic, colorful rim of the crater and there's low hanging clouds. It's got fog in the background.
Speaker: And again, in several colors of grasses between us. It sounds beautiful. It is beautiful. And until we moved to this new house two months ago, 50 inch print of it was hanging over our fireplace.
Speaker: And it's a picture that I've sold a number of times. It changed my life ah because when I saw that picture, being so struck by the stillness that I was able to one perceive and to capture.
Speaker: I realized that photography was something I needed to do much more of. That's so inspiring, Adam, that, that is wonderful. I'm, I'm so glad that you found your gift for this.
Speaker: Now your business is called invisible lenses. What's, what's the story there? What's the story behind the name? I get a lot of questions about that at art shows, and people often take it quite literally, thinking that my my camera is invisible or something like that, or there's no lens involved.
Speaker: um So i like doing street photography, ah often often as part of travel photography, but the genres can be separated. And my my view of photography is that I should be unobtrusive.
Speaker: ah that I'm not there to ask you on the street, may I take your picture? Because i will get a completely different image, which will not be, generally speaking, the thing that I saw in you that made me want to take a picture in the first place.
Speaker: And so, of course, there's lots of discussions about the ethics of street photography. one One must be respectful, of course, and the laws are different in different countries. But in general, I want to observe life as it's happening and and you be in the background.
Speaker: i I shot a baptism a few years ago in New York and I got this wonderful compliment from the priest.
Speaker: For many of these pictures, I am six feet away from the principals. And my camera is not a quiet one. Right. He said, Adam, you're the best photographer I've ever worked with.
Speaker: You got everything you needed. And I never knew you were there. Amazing. Right. That's why I strive it. You keep it background. Right. When I i shoot, i if I shoot a wedding or some other event, I just want to get what's happening. I don't want things to happen for me for the purpose of creating a photograph. Believe me, I can i can create that photograph by working off the land.
Speaker: And that's what I want to do. That's wonderful.
Speaker: what Can you tell us a little bit about the Kids on 12th or All Right series? ah Sure. So um as i said a moment ago, we just moved from Center City, Philadelphia, out to a suburb.
Speaker: ah But for three two or three years, our daughter ah went to the kids on 12th school, right in, uh, in center city, uh, wonderful place.
Speaker: And, um, uh, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's, there's not a lot of, uh, it's not a huge staff or anything. And so we easily often talk with the, uh, the head of school.
Speaker: And she asked if I would do the, uh, the portraits, uh, for their, the the school pictures that they needed. and, uh, I,
Speaker: yeah I jumped at the opportunity because this is my kind of project and allowed me to to do a number of things and combine a number of things that really appealed to me.
Speaker: So... you know i I love taking pictures of virtually everything, flowers, um people on the street. ah But porfeiture is its its own creature.
Speaker: And you have this incredible relationship with your subject, however briefly. ah And your your job is to to render what what you see there.
Speaker: And one of the um photographers who I greatly admire, Irving Penn, um ah he had extremely simple technique.
Speaker: I mean, he would hang up. ah gray backdrop or or maybe maybe some some neutral gray kind of shapes. And he would have his subjects come before him and he would just wait until they revealed themselves.
Speaker: And they always did. I found this quite inspiring. I went out and bought a gray backdrop and thought, okay, I'm going to do it the way he does. Right? Right. Of course.
Speaker: For this project, I it was i was maybe ah inspired by Penn's approach, but visually, i was inspired by Richard Avedon.
Speaker: who did a famous ah series. ah It's usually called Western Portraits ah in the 70s, where he depicted often quite ordinary people um that he would find in all walks of life.
Speaker: And he used, of course, black and white film, which was the way you did art in the 1970s, as well as a plain white backdrop, which has the effect of of eliminating any distraction, a completely, ah seemingly, seemingly unmediated view between the viewer and the subject. Of course, it's mediated by the photographer, but the magic of photography is to make people forget that mediation.
Speaker: To take the photographer out of the equation. Yes. Yeah. Yes. yeah Which might require considerable effort and artifice by the photographer But in fact, ideally, and then I think most most photographers, don't know, the idea is I'm not looking at a picture someone has taken.
Speaker: I am looking at reality. That's the emotional effect. And sure, you can appreciate what the photographer's done, but the emotional effect should be primary. Anyway, so I set up this little studio,
Speaker: at the school over a couple of days around the holidays. And it is a, as I told the head of school, you'll be shocked at how much time it takes me to set up all these lights and everything else.
Speaker: And this perfect white backdrop. um And I also, right before we began talking for the show, Um, uh, we were chatting about cameras and what what camera i use.
Speaker: Um, I use Pentax cameras mostly, but I have a special camera that I sent to a man I know in Lithuania, uh, who altered the camera so that it only photographs in black and white. Okay. Okay.
Speaker: And the benefit of this is by essentially simplifying how the camera works, the camera is able to render black and white images with much more detail and tonality than it could as a color camera. Even a color camera where you've converted to black and white, this is something else.
Speaker: ah And so it is it imposes a discipline on you, the photographer, because... you've got to You've got to make the contrast somehow.
Speaker: ah You can't rely on the color of a scene to tell your story. And you need to really dial in the lighting you want. But that was a challenge that I was looking forward to.
Speaker: So I could bring these things together ah in the context of these portraits. And we would just, yeah. have the kids come um in groups of one one to three. I had the, I thought, genius double idea to have each kid pick someone that she wanted her photograph taken with.
Speaker: And my thinking was, okay, I'll do that picture first. Now she's all loosened up ah and I can take, you know, the real portrait of her.
Speaker: And These kids were yeah could be three, four, five, or sometimes couple years older. a real variety in there their abilities to engage with the camera.
Speaker: And so very often, my my approach was just to wait. Not to hasten a smile or, hey, do this, ah which would be what you would get at JCPenney. Right.
Speaker: But to just wait for the child's personality to reveal itself. And it always did. I love it. That's fantastic.
Speaker: I'm sure those kids gave you a lot of great material to work with. That's wonderful. That's great. It's the best project I've worked on. That's fantastic.
Speaker: Now, we are, as you know, not talking about photography as a hobby here. um You've been doing this for over a decade, right? Or nearly a decade. Almost a decade, yeah. and And your work has been on display. It's been on display in coffee shops and at the Philadelphia shop Flower Show. Excuse me.
Speaker: ah You also do commercial photography events and even photojournalism. Your website has photos of the 2020 protests in Philly and a visit from then President Joe Biden.
Speaker: And you, as I understand it, even snapped a photo that was used by your colleagues and my colleagues, Dennis Patterson and Jacob Russell for their book. So how do you balance the demands of your day job with this wonderful, wonderful artistic expression that you've discovered?
Speaker: I mean, it's a good question, what but it's one that must be answered carefully when speaking to the dean, ah who certainly expects a minimum level performance from me in the office.
Speaker: No, no, no. it's We're off the record here, Adam. Yes, yeah certainly, certainly. um So, know, there are times when maybe I've got more unstructured time and can spend an afternoon photographing a flower, which is, you know, extremely ah relaxing.
Speaker: ah It's hard work, but extremely enjoyable way to spend spend the tip spend the day. um And other times when you have to kind of fit in the photography more interstitially.
Speaker: um i would say that...
Speaker: By and large, ah photography just becomes part of... my personality. And so there are times I'm always carrying a camera.
Speaker: You might not see it, but I always got a camera somewhere ah but besides the phone. And you know I'm looking for an opportunity that might arise. and And that means I can do other things when I'm not doing photography.
Speaker: i It varies. I mean, right now i'm in between projects ah that Kids on 12 Project It took a lot of me. It was a lot of was a lot of work before, during, and after the shoot.
Speaker: And I don't know what the next artistic challenge will be. I'm looking for some inspiration. And when I find it, you'll wonder, where' where's where's Adam? I haven't seen him in weeks. He's been... He's dedicated to it an inspiring project. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, let me ask about the interaction between law and photography. does it Does the work in those areas ever collide, coming come into conflict? So definite not conflict. I mean, therere but ah in terms of collision, generally, no um In general, i I like to have the photography completely separate from the rest of my life.
Speaker: I made i made an exception for you, Johanna, and this ah this podcast. um We appreciate that. There are times when I've thought about ah writing something um about...
Speaker: yeah about digital images and the law, ah which now seems so so quaint compared to, you know given given um um ah various AI tools.
Speaker: um I was just thinking about you know modifications for things. And now, of course, they're wholly fabricated. um And yeah but that interests me somewhat.
Speaker: But I have to say that while I might have, I think I would have some insights as an artist in writing it, I wouldn't be moved to do it as an artist. And so I just kind of, I don't put it in the photography bucket.
Speaker: um my My subjects don't really lend themselves to ah photographic expression or anything that invites me ah to cross those lines.
Speaker: ah You're talking about your legal subjects, not your photographic subjects. Correct. correct correct yeah um And so generally speaking, um I put this ah under the you know um and contains multitudes a description of of my my personality.
Speaker: I love it. And what about your students? Do they engage with your photography work at all? Do they even know that you're a photographer outside of class? I was shocked the first day of class last year ah with a student who said that she had seen, there was a TikTok video that a kind of promoter put on.
Speaker: ah So it we became like a 30 second ad ah for me at the flower show. I thought, what? where did you find this thing? You're TikTok famous. That's a claim not many of us can make. I thought i thought hitting C-SPAN 20 years ago would would be the high point. No, no, it's this ah this TikTok thing.
Speaker: um Occasionally, you know, occasionally a student will will find something I've done online or the subject will kind of turn to photography. Maybe the the student has ah a beautiful picture on her laptop. Oh, let's talk about that. And, you know, it'll, you know, My secrets will spill out.
Speaker: ah So, you know, one one doesn't know. Of course, they'll so assume the students talk about everything. ah But I can't say I've had too many students come up to me and say, hey, tell me about your photography. Just a couple.
Speaker: Although, remember one, can't think of his name, he too ah was a photographer, and he sent me his website, and he had some beautiful ah pictures taken of a bullfight that he attended in Spain.
Speaker: Oh, that's fantastic. That's great. It's nice to find that common ground with your students. Yes. And so what's next for you, either either in terms of law or in terms of photography?
Speaker: What do you see as as the next stage? I don't know. um With photography, I have i profited by letting, I suppose, sailing the winds of intuition and waiting to see what opportunity comes up.
Speaker: You know, although i i do I do these art shows um a few times a year and other things, ah in general, I'm a much better photographer than I am businessman.
Speaker: That's true a lot of artists, I think. Yeah, a good good company. ah And, um you know, i'm often torn.
Speaker: ah i could... kind of market myself more or do certain things and try to yeah generate more opportunities. And I think I would, I could like those.
Speaker: But as you do that, ah you know, the the art recedes a little bit, which is the thing that that brought me to it. um So I'm not sure...
Speaker: You know, most of the things that are really interesting to me that I've done in photography, they weren't planned, you know, months advance. some some up some Somebody saw something and some opportunity came up.
Speaker: ah There have been opportunities I've come close to getting that really, let's just say, would have completely changed the nature of this conversation ah if if it had worked out.
Speaker: ah But, that you know, these things didn't. But who knows, you know, who knows the phone will ring tomorrow. Right. For teaching and and writing, ah you know, there are there are a handful of projects that have been simmering for a long time for me that, you know, I find a certain, I'm a little more interested in ah than than I had been, um you know, as a, you know, don't know.
Speaker: recent recent past. ah And I look forward to seeing where those take me. Great. Well, I look forward to seeing it too, Adam. and And in my last question, i'm going to bring us full circle back to law school and ask you, what advice would you give to an aspiring law student?
Speaker: Someone who aspires to become a law student or a law student who continues to aspire. No, someone who aspires to become a law student, someone wants to go to law school. well What would be your advice to that student?
Speaker: So we are all wondering what the role of of institutions such as ours is in the the emerging world of artificial intelligence.
Speaker: ah it It is, I think, no longer a controversial statement to suggest that universities are not doing all they could ah to prepare students to lead ah active and inquiring minds so that regardless of the technology that's thrown at them, ah they are prepared to think ah their way through it.
Speaker: And so... I think for someone who's thinking about law school, you know i i always wanted to be a lawyer. I loved law school. you i know you all all the law professors loved law school. it just It just resonated with us.
Speaker: That's unusual. ah It's not going to be true for even even the happiest of law students. That's just not why they're there. I would encourage people to think about why is it you think ah the practice of law and the study of law ah might resonate?
Speaker: And, so ah you know, don't I mentioned earlier, i simply got in line ah for the jobs. Don't don't get in line for graduate school ah because you you can't think of of something ah that that calls you more fully.
Speaker: So work on that story and make sure that that you understand your story about why you're doing it. In terms of preparation for law school, I'm extremely ecumenical here.
Speaker: um you i will I will make fun of art history majors forever, but you know what? a bunch of them want to be doctors, I think because they're both interested in the structure of things. That's why so many people go from art to medicine.
Speaker: Our world is becoming more visual in the way information is presented. Seems to me ah that that's something that, you know, a skilled art historian ah could make use of, even in the context of ah of legal argumentation.
Speaker: um So, no, I think any any major ah that teaches you how to think rigorously. sometimes maybe to across ah a spectrum of languages, so to speak, will serve you well in law.
Speaker: Absolutely. Well said. All right. Well, Adam, is there anything else you want to add before we sign off? I think we've covered it. Okay. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for for being a guest with us here today.
Speaker: And best of luck to you in in your photography as well as as your legal academic career. Thank you so much for having Thanks. See you around the office. Okay. See you around.
Speaker: The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large nationally known university with a personal small campus experience.
Speaker: Learn more today by visiting us at law.rutgers.edu. Thank you.
