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S6E8: (Rebroadcast) Love Is Light, with Hon. Esther Salas RLAW'94
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Hon. Esther Salas RLAW'94 joins Co-Dean Rose Cuison-Villazor to share her story of growing up in Union City, NJ, attending Rutgers Law School, and the work she is doing as a US District Court Judge for the District of New Jersey. She opens up about the tragedy that befell her family; the legacy of her son, Daniel Anderl; and the inspiration for the scholarships that have been formed in his name.
If you would like to donate to the Daniel Anderl Memorial Scholarship, please click here or visit go.rutgers.edu/DanielAnderlMemorialScholarship.
To read more about this year's Hall of Distinguished Alumni inductees, including Judge Salas, visit rutgersfoundation.org/news/rutgers-hall-distinguished-alumni-2025-inductees-announced.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Introduction to Judge Esther Salas
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to Anthem Award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and Dean of the Law School, Joanna Bond.
00:00:22
Speaker
Today's episode is a rebroadcast of a conversation with Judge Esther Salas that was originally aired on April 5th, 2003. The interview was conducted by former host of the podcast, Rose Quizon Villazor.
00:00:36
Speaker
Judge Salas graduated from Rutgers Law School in 1994, and this month she will be inducted into the Rutgers Hall of Distinguished Alumni, along with two other Rutgers Law School alums, Donald Cameron Clark, class of 1979, and Judge Gregory E. Jackson, class of 1978.
00:00:56
Speaker
You can learn more about this year's inductees at the link in the show notes. Now, without further ado, here's our conversation with Judge Esther Salas.
Salas' Upbringing and Family Resilience
00:01:07
Speaker
Judge Salas, thank you so much for making time for us today. Thank you for having me here today. i very much appreciate it. We like to start off these interviews by talking about a person's origin story.
00:01:19
Speaker
And by that, I mean, know, what is, tell us your backstory, the backstory that explains who you are, your identity, what motivates you. Well, I'm the youngest of five ah born to Cuban Mexican immigrants, raised primarily by my single mom ah with a fourth grade education. And I always like to put that in there because I think it speaks to the woman that she was and the things that she taught me as a human being and um as a woman.
00:01:48
Speaker
ah I grew up primarily in in Union City, New Jersey, grew up... but Under circumstances that were not, I suppose one would say not ideal, but for me, my experience has helped shape who I am.
00:02:04
Speaker
My mom left my dad in the middle of the night on a red-eye flight from California to New Jersey. She packed a few things she could pack in a suitcase. And as soon as my dad had left the house, um we all got on ah on a plane and headed to New Jersey and never looked back.
00:02:21
Speaker
Sadly, now that I know so much about ah people, what happens to them, trauma, I've come to forgiveness with my dad. But my dad was definitely a product of his own experiences.
00:02:33
Speaker
And um ah my mother was in an abusive relationship for a very long time. And she was left with little to no choice but to leave the way she left. And we arrived in New Jersey, lived with my uncle, a factory worker and his wife and my aunt and 11 of us lived in this three bedroom apartment. I slept on a lounge chair, a beach lounge chair that I took out every night from under the bed and got my bed ready, just you know, every night. And until my mother was strong enough and had enough support via welfare and other sources to get us an apartment across the street and from my uncle.
00:03:12
Speaker
And we lived in the two bedroom apartment with my mom and my four other siblings till a fire took everything that we had you know amassed in 1979. And we started all over again.
00:03:25
Speaker
And mom had to rebuild her life and rebuild our lives. And we ended up living in another section of Union City and and surviving the fire and surviving the trauma.
00:03:36
Speaker
and And going on to all of us graduate college. I was the only one in my family to go to Rutgers undergrad and Rutgers Law School, but I'm very proud of my other siblings. I'm very proud of what they've accomplished in their lives.
Law School and Early Career Challenges
00:03:51
Speaker
And I'm so very proud of my mother.
00:03:54
Speaker
He sounds like an incredibly um supportive and strong and brave woman to have to to seek to escape an abusive relationship and bring her kids with her and into another state. and Thank you for sharing that.
00:04:11
Speaker
And for you to have grown up in an environment of love with the love of your mother, your your uncle and your family, that says a lot about the importance of family.
00:04:21
Speaker
and and the the importance of a supportive network. So I could see where you draw some of your strength from your from your mother. um i I'm going to tease you a little bit. I read about you that you were a cheerleader ah Yeah, I was a bulldog, Emerson Bulldog cheerleader and used my voice, my deep voice and probably my my sturdy build to be the bottom of that pyramid.
00:04:48
Speaker
So i I was the bottom of that foundation of that pyramid. i'm proud of that. I see. I'll confess, I was also a cheerleader when I was in high school. You know I was a cheerleader in the 80s. had big hair and but because I'm small, I was usually at the top of the pyramid.
00:05:05
Speaker
Rub it in. Why don't you rub it in? Well, um I that there are it's one of the benefits, the few benefits of being, you know, petite these days. um Well, then, so you you mentioned then that you, um as we know, you went to Rutgers Law School.
00:05:22
Speaker
Did you imagine that you were going to be a lawyer? You know, um i i always talk about and, and you know, I've come so far in my life in terms of the the things that have happened. And think we're always learning. But I read a book by Oprah Winfrey and Dr. Perry called What Happened to You?
00:05:43
Speaker
And the book really just talks about trauma and the brain and how most of who we are is is developed between, you know, zero in utero to six years old.
00:05:54
Speaker
But the experiences that we all have shape us to and shape the people that we are today. And those are usually during those you know formative years. And one of the things that I, because mom was on welfare and didn't speak English, I used to have to take off the school when she had to go report.
00:06:11
Speaker
And um I could remember taking the bus to Journal Square in Jersey City, and walking with mom, standing on the real long lines to get up to see our caseworker. And you know usually by the time we got up to see the caseworker, the caseworker was exhausted and probably fatigued and overwhelmed as well ah and wasn't always so nice to my mom. and those were the days that I think I learned to be an advocate.
00:06:39
Speaker
Those were the days that I learned to speak and and be the voice for the voiceless. And my mother was advocate. A woman that she didn't use the word impeccable.
00:06:51
Speaker
You know, that's something I i use now. But she made it very clear to me that I needed to be respectful and that I needed to use my words and my brain to communicate with people. Not, you know, not my not the tone or tenor of my voice.
00:07:04
Speaker
And so I learned it at an early age. the idea that sometimes you have to advocate for yourself. And that was probably what started, you know, um my my road to to law and to being an advocate was those welfare years.
00:07:22
Speaker
and And I see that now ah very clearly. And um i am I am incredibly grateful ah for those experiences because I think they helped shape the person that I became and the person that I had to become in light of you know obvious challenges I've had as of late.
00:07:44
Speaker
As you know, I'll be asking you later questions about what it's like for you to sit on the bench and um the and the decisions you have to make that involves people's lives. But I'm struck now by how your experience being raised by a single mother,
00:07:59
Speaker
And um and being on welfare and having to advocate at such a young age for her has has indeed impacted your worldview and your view of your experience, your lived experience with the law as seen through your mother's eyes, but also as you saw her and your role there.
00:08:17
Speaker
It's i'm I'm trying to picture you at that age. um I'm reminded of when i used to practice law in new York City, most of my clients were like ah Well, people with limited English proficiency and they were being denied access to health care and hospitals.
00:08:31
Speaker
And I recall that my clients always had to rely on their young children to interpret for them, ah to interpret these very private health related matters and um the struggle that they went through. And I saw a lot of resilience in there, too.
00:08:47
Speaker
but i And and like I see that in your in your I hear that in your voice and the way you tell your story. So you're right. There's all these experiences in our past that shaped who we are and how we see things.
00:08:59
Speaker
You know, I'm sorry. And I just wanted to add that I, you know, my mother taught me probably ah lesson and the lesson that I have utilized from the bench every day when I was growing up, if not every day, very often.
00:09:14
Speaker
My mother would say, Esther, you're not better than anyone, but nobody. translation ah you're not better than anyone but nobody is better than you And it was that idea of, you know, you treat every single person with respect and yet you know your own worth that you want that back as well.
00:09:33
Speaker
And so, you know, i when she used to say it when I was younger, I'd roll my eyes and be like, yeah, I've heard that before. But but those words had such such a powerful and profound meaning in my life, especially as a judicial officer. And so for me, here's this woman that has taught me so much about who I am,
00:09:58
Speaker
um so much about how I should treat others and so much about life that can't be learned from any textbook or any classroom or any lecture or podcast or whatever people find now that people choose as their source of of information.
00:10:16
Speaker
So, you know I just if I'm gushing, I am. I'm gushing because I am so very fortunate to to be my mother's daughter. Well, tell me about your experience at Rutgers Law School. In what ways did your experience and being raised by your mother affect your ah you're learning um environment or the way that you were understanding the law, what it was like in the classroom?
Mentorship and Professional Growth
00:10:44
Speaker
You know, listen, I will be ah completely honest that my law, my 1L year was a difficult year. I went to Rutgers undergrad um and I was, the you know, I went through EOF and is a fund that allowed people to go to school when, when,
00:11:02
Speaker
The resources at home were not enough and supplemented ah whatever financial aid we we we we could get at the time. And, you know, it was a tremendous opportunity for me and to get to Rutgers College in New Brunswick and and learn how to study.
00:11:18
Speaker
and learn how to survive in such a large setting. And i I got very good at it, you know, and by my you know fourth year at Rutgers, I was doing extremely well and excelling.
00:11:31
Speaker
And then you get to Rutgers law and, and it's a different way of writing. It is a different way of, of, of, of sort of understanding the concepts and, and, and trying to, um,
00:11:43
Speaker
trying to present them in a way that is acceptable for professors and acceptable for really the legal ah field. And there was a a definite moment of, you know, a crisis of of um of identity. you know i i didn't know if I could do this. And I remember walking in to the dean at the time, Dean Janice Robinson, and sort of really just sinking into her chair and sobbing and it's saying, i i don't think I'm cut out for this. I don't think this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And having just a total, having just wrestling with self-doubt yeah and security, um just not feeling good enough.
00:12:29
Speaker
And ah Dean Robinson let me get that good cry out and and then said, are you done? and I looked at her and. kind of said, yeah. And she said, okay, let's talk about how we're going to fix this.
00:12:41
Speaker
and it And it was, you know, sort of problem solving and figuring out how do I best understand? How do I best read? How do I best comprehend?
00:12:52
Speaker
Am I a visual person? Do I, and you know, how do, how do, how can i take this information and, and, and really, um, Learn and process and digest it.
00:13:03
Speaker
And I learned and I got better and I got better. And with every day I improved and so did my confidence. who And so I thought that and again, very proud member of the minority student program.
00:13:19
Speaker
um And I thank MSP for everything that it has done for me. And an incredible program ah with people that are, I think, as authentic as you come and realize that there are opportunities and some opportunities ah need to be at least the doors need to be open for the individual to pave their way.
00:13:44
Speaker
And those are the concepts of sort of those programs ah like EOF and the minority student program and and other programs that, you know, quite frankly, I think are vital to to institutions like Rutgers.
00:13:56
Speaker
Yeah, i I completely agree with you. Let me just explain a little bit ah what MSP is for those unfamiliar with this program. The minority student program is a post admissions program at Rutgers Law School.
00:14:08
Speaker
And our our overall goal in MSP is to support students who are the program is designed for to serve any ah just ah to serve students of any race or ethnicity who are members of groups that are underrepresented in the legal profession and who have faced discrimination or overcome social and economic hardships.
00:14:28
Speaker
Many, if not most of our MSB ah students are first gen students, both first gen in college in the US and then also first gen in law school, which actually is consistent with the student body. Even today at Rutgers Law School, the general Rutgers Law School ah student population, about 60% of our students are the first in their family to go to law school.
00:14:51
Speaker
and MSP is a big part of who we are at Rutgers, as you have said, Judge, because it really is a ah program that is designed to help people succeed through academic um tutoring and and support, but also to help um students find jobs in the summertime.
00:15:09
Speaker
And um we're proud of It's been around for more than 50 years, and we've led to distinguish alumni like you, Judge, and and we appreciate that you continue to support this program.
00:15:21
Speaker
So it's and what ah your story, about what you said about struggling with law school, that's fairly common. Many, many students don't know what law school was like. And it's great to hear that the dean supported um you and said, hey, listen, you know, I hear you. And now let's figure out how we can make this work.
00:15:38
Speaker
And I'm glad that you you got that. Do you see yourself now in that role? And then, you know, you're you're a judge, or you have law clerks working for you, interns. What is that like and from that perspective?
00:15:49
Speaker
You know, you know,
00:15:53
Speaker
I take it very seriously. My role as ah as as a judge and as a mentor to a lot of the law students that serve as law clerks and interns And um one of the things we do now is we have a very well-developed internship program where we monitor the interns, we give them constructive criticism, we give them redline versions of what they're submitting.
00:16:14
Speaker
um And at the end, my law clerks come up with a very comprehensive um evaluation and that I get to sit down with them and sort of talk about. you know personal qualities and and and professional competence. And we go over um you know in great detail what you know what we saw that they did right, what we think they could definitely improve on.
00:16:35
Speaker
And it is it is an opportunity for us to try to help this individual with the next phase of their career, their academic career and and beyond. so So for me to add, that's a long way of saying that I realize that it takes interest, it takes time,
00:16:52
Speaker
It takes truly loving compassion to want to help people elevate themselves on different levels. And that is the what Dean Robinson showed me in that moment where I was vulnerable and I was raw and I was having, you know, a crisis with confidence.
00:17:12
Speaker
And, you know, that moment in time changed the trajectory of my life. It really did. Because I don't think if we would have had that support, would have had that connection, would have had that true authentic concern, then I could have walked out of that room and quit law school. And I don't know where I would be today.
00:17:35
Speaker
So I really think that we as human beings have the power to change people's lives. And it really all starts with caring enough to listen, to be present with that person,
00:17:51
Speaker
and to really express confidence even when that person perhaps lacks confidence in themselves. Yeah, that's absolutely right. There's um there's power in listening and being empathetic.
00:18:05
Speaker
And that's what Dean Robinson. um and ah That's how she treated you with respect, with empathy. And she listened to you and gave you the confidence that you need. And I'm glad that she did.
00:18:18
Speaker
trying to imagine now you as a law student. What was your favorite class in law school? A criminal law. Ah, okay. Definitely. definitely that was, that's sort of where I found my stride.
00:18:29
Speaker
i actually, through the program, got placed at the Essex County Prosecutor's Office. and at the appellate section. That's where I honed my writing skills. I stood up, they let us argue municipal appeals.
00:18:42
Speaker
I watched phenomenal lawyers on their feet trying cases um and really caught the bug, if you will, for ah work in the criminal ah law sector. and And I went on to um become a criminal defense attorney.
00:19:00
Speaker
But I think that's where the love and the passion and sort of that's where it was born. but So, yes, after law school, you clerked for Judge Eugene Cody Jr., and then you did private practice for a couple of years, and then you became a federal public defender.
00:19:16
Speaker
that was Well, you said criminal law. I'm curious why at that time in your life, in your career, you chose public defender instead of working for ah prosecutor's office. That's a great story. um One that I will... ah
00:19:32
Speaker
Let's see. I wanted to be a prosecutor. and and You know, we all plan our lives and we sort of have it all worked out, especially if you're a reformed control freak, as I am. i have now formed Control Freaks Anonymous. So if anyone is interested in joining, we're going to have you. know a shot some meetings that we'll hold. But yes, as a reformed control freak, I definitely back then was ah probably at the height of of my um my ah controlling and perhaps false ideals that I could control life and that life would conform to my will and and my desires. But you know I had planned a certain course and without getting into very much detail, I'll just say this.
00:20:19
Speaker
The prosecutor at the time ah was not ah was unwilling to interview me because of some personal issues or some some issues he was having with me with my judge.
00:20:31
Speaker
And so um despite the fact that I worked at the Essex County Prosecutor's Office my entire law school career, Because I was asked back, I was one of two asked back, argued for I don't know how many municipal appeals and and and wrote ah close to over 20 appellate briefs.
00:20:49
Speaker
I was not given and job. I was not given an opportunity. And so I found myself out of a clerkship with no job. And ah my entire plan A was crumbling before me.
00:21:01
Speaker
And I, again, was faced with a challenge.
Career Transition and Achievements
00:21:05
Speaker
And, you know, I'm not going to lie. The room was spinning a bit at the time when I realized my dream of becoming a prosecutor was not going to happen.
00:21:14
Speaker
And so i remember pounding the pavement one day. I got tired of feeling sorry for myself. Got the only suit I think I owned at the time and um started walking down Livingston Avenue where in New Brunswick. And in Livingston Avenue in New Brunswick, New Jersey, there are, you know, just a bunch of law offices.
00:21:35
Speaker
It just sort of, it lines the street, you know. And so I just started walking up various law offices and handing out my resume. and And the one thing I do know that is probably if I had to say, hey, Esther, what's your superpower, right? If somebody asked me what my superpower is,
00:21:54
Speaker
I would say it is my interpersonal skills, my ability to connect with people. And I i had a moment in time where I was talking to the receptionist at this law firm and just just was in the present moment without realizing I was in the present moment, was connecting with her in a real and a real positive way.
00:22:14
Speaker
And the hiring partner was listening. And the next thing I know, he opened the door and said, come on in for an interview. And that was my first job at a law school um was with the law firm of Garces and Grabler. And Mr. Garces gave me my first shot.
00:22:30
Speaker
Amazing. Yeah, it's it's it's it's i guess it's a story now and you look back and you realize it's a story about, you know, life isn't always going to turn out the way you wanted it to turn out.
00:22:41
Speaker
But, you know, you have the choice of what you now were going to do with what is unfolding in front of you. But it's also a story of how you um treated the person who was an assistant.
00:22:54
Speaker
Right. I don't know um if you've ah witnessed how other and lawyers, other professionals, how they treat assistants and, you know, quote, secretaries. But sometimes and people are not that nice to executive assistants. And yeah.
00:23:11
Speaker
And yet they do such hard work for, um you know, for in this case, for the law firm. And so I think that also says a lot about who you are as a person in the way that, you know you you would you treat everybody with respect.
00:23:22
Speaker
And but i I'm also trying to imagine you as a young Esther Salas walking and passing up resumes. That's. that that's important. it's It shows about your your strength and of character and um and rising up to the challenge.
00:23:38
Speaker
So that's good. So then you worked for the law firm. But then eventually you switched over and decided to then work for the federal public defender. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, um you know, a ah tough job to get.
00:23:51
Speaker
Those positions don't open up often because the position is just, you You know, they're coveted positions and you're in the federal court and you're you're representing people that are indigent and that need. Sometimes you're the only person they have in the country, depending on what type of charge it is. And, you know, it was a dream job.
00:24:10
Speaker
And I didn't get it right away. So I interviewed, came very close and I didn't get it. And, and you know, obviously you're heartbroken and ah and but you continue powering through, moving forward.
00:24:25
Speaker
And I got a call a few months later that by the then public defender, Rich Coughlin, saying, you know, they were another position had opened up and you know they were they all wanted me to join. it ah The Federal Defender's Office. And so, you know, even when you think it's not going your way, there's the idea of sort of staying positive and ah staying optimistic and, you know, keeping the faith, if you will, that things will work out.
00:24:52
Speaker
And I got a dream job at the Federal Public Defenders and it was nine and a half years understanding. of challenges, certainly challenges. You face challenges as a woman, ah you you know whether clients think you're tough enough to handle these cases. ah You deal with ah you know challenges as a Latina and you know whether people think you have ah the bandwidth to handle some of the more complex criminal matters.
00:25:20
Speaker
So there's there's just there's challenges that we all face, but I really do believe they are they are what makes us who we are. and And it is really how you choose to view those chats those challenges.
00:25:34
Speaker
I kind of feel that I'm talking to my therapist right now, Judge. Because, you know, all of us and in this life go through challenges and um and I'm hearing some positivity coming out of you. So thank you for saying what you were saying.
00:25:51
Speaker
um And so you are you're right, you were a federal public defender and you were breaking barriers. And then again, you did it in 2006. You became the first Latina on the federal bench when in New Jersey when you became a federal magistrate judge.
00:26:06
Speaker
what um What motivated you to switch from being a public defender to now being on the bench? You know, um
00:26:17
Speaker
for me, At the time, i saw these positions opening up. And again, you have a moment where you can say, I'm i'm i'm afraid of of rejection. I'm afraid of someone laughing and saying, why you?
00:26:33
Speaker
um But I knew there was never a Latino male or female as a United States magistrate judge. And i knew based on my mother's upbringing, based on everything that I had been through to date, that I had something to offer.
00:26:48
Speaker
um And, you know, the very first time I went for the position, i didn't even get a call back. I kept lifting the the the phone receiver and trying to see, is there a dial tone? Is there a dial tone?
00:27:01
Speaker
um And, you know, everybody was being called in for interviews and I didn't even get an interview by the merit selection panel. So ah but I went for it again. I went for it again. And the second time I made it to the final round and did not get it But I was persistent and I um i didn't give up.
00:27:22
Speaker
And the third time I was selected as a United States magistrate judge and assumed the position in 2006. So I think for me, it was, you know, rising to the challenge, but also, ah you know, understanding that you you can fall.
00:27:41
Speaker
But if you get up and look at what you tripped over, and keep on walking, then, you know, that fall wasn't so bad. You know, it wasn't it wasn't what defined you.
00:27:54
Speaker
um In fact, it it it helped shape you for the next round and the next round. So I think that for fear, for me, I've learned that many of us come to positions with fear and doubt.
00:28:08
Speaker
And instead of love and trust. And I think that for me, without knowing it now, I understand. But without knowing it, I was in love and trust, you know, and I was trying to to to really allow what my mother's had taught me, what I knew of our story, of what I knew of her story of strength and perseverance, perseverance and her willingness to move forward. I saw her do it and I knew I could do it, too.
00:28:37
Speaker
And so it was that continual push ah to just try to be the best version of me that I could possibly be. And it's it's great to hear you say that. It's hard when you're in that moment, though, of, I mean, leap and everyone has to go through these challenges if you fall and then you rise up and you you try to learn from mistakes, the things that cause you to fall so that you can be a stronger person.
00:29:03
Speaker
it Sometimes it's really hard, though, when you're in that moment. And so it's good to be able to figure out, you know, what can you lean into in order to remind yourself that, know, you can move forward.
00:29:16
Speaker
And so um I'm here and here I am now picturing you as the now you're on the bench. And if I understand correctly, many federal magistrate judges and in your position now as a district court judge,
00:29:30
Speaker
Most of um judges are not from the public defender side. If I'm understanding this correctly, it's not usually those from the prosecutor side. So yeah you bring in a different perspective but as a woman, as Latina and also as a as a former public defender. Do ah do you agree with that?
00:29:48
Speaker
I do. I mean, I definitely think that more often than not, magistrate judges are selected from, ah you know, the U.S. Attorney's Office. ah Some of them are selected from private practice.
00:30:00
Speaker
Very few are selected from the Federal Public Defender's Office. But I think we see a trend and I i think we have a certain justice on the Supreme Court. So we we are seeing we're seeing a trend ah to sort of a balancing the the that out and having sort of a diverse ah Bench and people with diverse backgrounds, which I think is important for the justice system to to to keep in mind and to to to work toward ah making sure that but the bench is a diverse bench that serves the community that and and that community looks to the bench to make sure that's the representative sampling of what we look like. So I think there's you know obviously a need to keep that in mind. But
00:30:44
Speaker
um Yeah, you know, it it was ah there was definitely questions of what a federal public defender could understand about a docket that's 90 percent civil.
00:30:55
Speaker
And and most of what U.S. magistrate judges do are civil matters. So that was definitely something that was, I think, of concern. But i'm I'm proud to say that i worked every day ah to educate myself, to inform myself, to work um at at at areas in areas of law that I knew nothing about, like patent litigation and antitrust and other other areas that I had never had any experience practicing in. So ah but it was.
00:31:26
Speaker
It was a phenomenal job. I enjoyed four and a half years as a U.S. magistrate judge. I loved settling cases. um I got such a rush from being able to mediate um and to get people to come to the middle and agree on a resolution. And those are just those are just moments where you realize you made a difference.
00:31:51
Speaker
It was your style. It was your ability to to reach the hardened litigant who thought their position was the right position and to to get people to come to the middle and to compromise.
00:32:04
Speaker
So it it was ah four and a half years that i I look back on and and I truly feel blessed.
00:32:11
Speaker
It's interesting to hear you talk about um encouraging litigants to meet at the middle in law school. Most of us learn to be for those who want to go into litigation and you win, you represent your clients.
00:32:24
Speaker
And so more and more and more ah law schools are now offering ADR and negotiations and mediation and. considering what settlement and compromise would look like.
00:32:37
Speaker
Right. So it's um it's good to just to hear you talk about what it was like for you as a judge and the rush that you you get in trying to help resolve a case that could be much more expensive. It'll take long because, you know, that litigants will choose to drag it out.
00:32:52
Speaker
So then in 2010, President Obama nominated you and then event ah the ah Senate confirmed you in 2011. You became now another trailblazer with respect to being the first Latina um Article III judge in the state of New Jersey.
00:33:09
Speaker
um I'd love to hear about what are your um proudest moments um as a judge? You know, what has made you feel I've heard you talk about your mother feeling proud of you, but in terms of you as a judge, what has made you proud about being a judge?
00:33:23
Speaker
I have to say, hands down, it's my work as a recovery court judge. In 2015, Judge Hayden and I started, along with Pretrial Services and the then ah Chief of Pretrial Services, Chris Stoser, what's called the Pretrial Opportunity Program.
00:33:39
Speaker
And the Pretrial Opportunity Program is a program that is designed to um find and identify defendants who committed their crimes because of their addiction. And um there are obviously some prerequisites to entering the program, but we ah we take in people no matter their exposure. And we work with people to rehabilitate their lives and and their thinking. And we ah change lives.
00:34:09
Speaker
And it is I just actually right before I sat for this interview, ah we had our our recovery court session with our participants. It is i leave there and I feel like I'm floating.
00:34:19
Speaker
I literally feel like I'm floating ah because we can see what someone looked like when they came in, what they were dealing with. And we work with them. And it isn't always easy.
00:34:31
Speaker
And it's so challenging because we're talking about people who have had trauma, adverse childhood experiences, who turn to drugs and alcohol as a form of self-medicating. who who who you know had you know who were out of foster systems, who had trauma that most of us can't even wrap our heads around.
00:34:49
Speaker
And yet here they are working on on themselves. Yes, initially, ah the goal is probably to save themselves ah you know from jail.
00:35:00
Speaker
that's you know Obviously, they're thinking about that. But when you see the evolution of this individual when they come in to when they are sentenced by me, And then go on to serve as mentors for the other participants that are still awaiting sentencing.
00:35:17
Speaker
It is probably the most gratifying thing i have ever done as a professional. hands out i'm I'm hearing um themes of rehabilitation, redemption um and second chances, right? That you're vote for those who participate in this program. and It's not easy because for those who have um ah for who have but because of what they've done in the past, they have that history convictions, then it's hard to get a job, to um to run an apartment, to get a loan.
00:35:48
Speaker
And and so it's The fact that you as the judge who sentenced them is saying, here's also a program I can help you be come back to society. And so is that a program that is part in partnership with um who else partners with you in this ah program?
00:36:06
Speaker
So the pretrial opportunity program, there is, I'm the district judge right now, we have a magistrate judge, Judge Keel, and then the team is made up of ah literally for the prosecutors, representatives, the federal public defenders, they have their representatives.
00:36:20
Speaker
We have people from pretrial, which is the, you before you're actually sentenced. So the pretrial services agency monitors the person while on bail. And then we have people from probation,
00:36:31
Speaker
Once they're sentenced, that's the supervised supervising agency that monitors them while they're on supervision. And that's the team. And we are a team. We meet before we sit with our folks.
00:36:43
Speaker
We meet after we have our sessions. We identify people we're concerned about. We are invested. We are like invested 120%. And so um and decisions we make, we make as a team.
00:36:57
Speaker
I don't just decide whether we're going to expel someone from the program. We decide as a team. We vote as a team. It's collaborative. It's communicative. It it is it is you know it is it is communal.
Personal Tragedy and Advocacy for Change
00:37:11
Speaker
and you know And all these things that we need as individuals to be connected to something that's meaningful, that has purpose, and that's you know that is aimed at making this place the criminal justice system ah better place.
00:37:29
Speaker
Thank you. that It's a collective effort yeah um to to help people. um I'd like to just to um shift gears a bit and talk about your personal life.
00:37:40
Speaker
Sure. And, um you know, in July 2020, your family experienced this horrific tragedy when your then 20-year-old son, Daniel Andrel, was killed by a deranged individual Your husband was also shot alllan and he survived.
00:37:58
Speaker
As a mother myself, really, i um I cannot even fathom what you went through. And I once again extend my heartfelt condolence to you and your husband. um Tell me about your son, Daniel.
00:38:12
Speaker
What was it like? Oh, my gosh. Daniel um was the you know, I used to say he was the I used to call him ah the pit of my peach. you know He was the cherry on my Sunday. he was know i told him he was the sugar in my bubble gum.
00:38:29
Speaker
was, you know, everything to Mark and I, you know, and um literally, ah we we had four miscarriages, three before him, one after. ah so we used to call him our k karma baby.
00:38:41
Speaker
And we used to say that he he, you know, he was just our miracle child. And, ah you know, we were living in euphoria, you know, you sort of and you sort of realize and and and For me, it was, you know it was the middle of a pandemic. We were ah stuck inside together 24 seven.
00:39:04
Speaker
And it was as much as I know so many lives were lost and I don't minimize, um ah you know, the coronavirus or the COVID-19 global pandemic.
00:39:15
Speaker
i I gave me a gift that I can never. um And I'm just going to try to lower this. ah Gave me a gift that I can that I will always cherish. And that was being with my son um and having these moments that I can cherish and hold on to playing games, for example, ah with him. I was not much of a game player when he was you know growing up. And and I realize again now looking back ah that that my mother didn't play games with me. She was too busy working two jobs, cooking, cleaning, and and and trying to keep a roof over our head. So mom was not you know into the games. And so I never got really into the games either.
00:39:56
Speaker
And so when I became a mom, my role was always you know working, coming home, cooking, cleaning, sort of being the disciplinarian when I needed to be, um and the confidant when I needed to be as well.
00:40:08
Speaker
But the pandemic gave me an opportunity to play with my son. to play Scrabble and Jenga. And our favorite was monopoly Monopoly Deal. And, you know, we really had the most wonderful bonding sessions from March 6th, when he came home from college to the moment he was tragically killed by a lawyer, no less. um And, you know, he was just ah human to me, um an amazing human being on so many levels, but I've often said, and I mean this, that Daniel's senseless murder made sense of his life because Daniel lived every day like it was his last day.
00:40:50
Speaker
He enjoyed life. He was at his most somber moments when he was alone in his room, not doing anything. But when he was doing things with people like playing games with his dad and and me and or or planning his birthday party, which we were we had celebrated right before his death.
00:41:10
Speaker
Doing things and being with people and loving people and loving life. That was when Daniel was at his you know highest. And and so I realized that in some ways, perhaps You know, you can be you can say it from a mystical perspective that, you know, he knew his life was not going to be long on Earth and he was going to make the most of it.
00:41:34
Speaker
And so I'm glad that i as his mom can look back and say he made the most of his life. We made the most of ah our time with him and we loved unconditionally. And we just, you know, we just loved.
00:41:49
Speaker
And and that's and put a put a period on that. He sounds like a wonderful human being judge. And um I'm glad that you have those memories with him and that you I've heard you say love is light as a remembrance of of Daniel.
00:42:07
Speaker
you I um after his death, you advocated for the passage of a law that would protect personal information of judges, including making sure that their addresses are not available on the Internet. I mean, sadly, I understand that's how that ah the killer found where you lived.
00:42:27
Speaker
And it really is remarkable when I when ah many my colleagues and I, when we've talked about um the strength that you had you know um in in advocating for this bill, you were grieving.
00:42:38
Speaker
You still are. And yet you were pushing for this law to protect all other judges. and And, um you know, thankfully, fortunately, Congress agreed and a bipartisan Congress passed it in December of 2022.
00:42:54
Speaker
What was it like when you were ah walking the halls of Congress or talking to people about ah the importance of this bill? You know, I. the The journey post-murder, I talk about my life in many ways, pre-murder, post-murder.
00:43:11
Speaker
And ah the post-murder journey um has definitely, you know, it's been grueling, exhausting, um arduous, it's emotional.
00:43:27
Speaker
But right after Daniel was you know killed and I knew he hadn't made it, um I tell people ah that I was in a catatonic state and I didn't want to live. And I'm very honest about that. you know He died on a Sunday um and Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, most of Wednesday, ah you know, I was I had lost my will to live.
00:43:48
Speaker
And I often say the light switch turned off when when I heard he didn't make it. But something happened to me on Wednesday. um And, you know, I always say it was like a gentle nudge from above.
00:44:00
Speaker
And I remember the light switch go back on. And I remember pulling myself. I was in the hospital then because I was admitted the day he died. And I remember sitting up in the bed and asking for a pen and paper.
00:44:15
Speaker
And there was a team of doctors surrounding me telling me, um ah you know, trying to convey to me this, you know, the severity of Mark's injuries. And it was at that moment that I came alive.
00:44:27
Speaker
And i i you know, I sort of say i awoke from a slumber. And, you know, it's it's been difficult um and it and it's definitely been challenging for me.
00:44:40
Speaker
But I also say to people that is. it has made me a better person, foundationally. I have a renewed perspective on life.
00:44:53
Speaker
ah And, you know, I i think that i I work very hard at trying to ah to think more about the betterment of others than necessarily, you know, my my individual journey.
00:45:10
Speaker
And so when this started, it was something was propelling me forward. Something had to be done. And, you know, and and initially i would say there there was you know, there was Daniel in mind, you know, his legacy.
Faith and Spirituality in Healing
00:45:25
Speaker
But it quickly became so much more than that. It became a concern for my brothers and sisters, as I call them. a concern for democracy, a concern for really our constitution.
00:45:39
Speaker
And when when I put it in that perspective, the urgency and the um the perseverance and the drive ah really, really was coming from that place, that this is much more than attack an attack and a lost life, although as precious to me as that life was, this there was a lot more at stake here.
00:46:06
Speaker
And so I think that ability to sort of, that that ability to move forward was in large part fueled ah by what I knew was at stake. And that really was democracy.
00:46:21
Speaker
I've also heard you, even now you were talking about um someone from above. um Faith is a big part of who you are. and i'm I'm Catholic as well. And so I think Lent is coming up next week. So I'm thinking about, you know, um the Lenten season and what that means. And so I've heard you talk about your faith as one of the bedrock principles that helps guide you as a person.
00:46:46
Speaker
Can you share a little bit more about um where that that faith has come from? Yeah, absolutely. um i You know, i I think that without faith, I would have been lost.
00:46:58
Speaker
um And I truly credit, you know, God ah for ah the divine graces that I have been given. And I've been given many, many since Daniel's murder.
00:47:09
Speaker
But I consider spirituality um not a religion, but a state of being. And I have really embraced concepts of spirituality.
00:47:21
Speaker
Non-judgment, you know, forgiveness. Really, for me, the idea of being in the present moment and appreciating life for what it is and not for what you want it to be.
00:47:36
Speaker
These principles ah that we are all one. that we are all the same, no matter who you are, no matter what faith or religion you may follow, or if you're an atheist or an agnostic, if you're black, if you're white, if you're Latino, if you're Asian, we're all the same.
00:47:55
Speaker
And this oneness under our source, God, if you know whatever you you identify as your source, we are all one. And that has really been um the thing that has as I credit, um ah you know, I often credit as as as getting me to this point, getting me here, and that I continue to rely on and lean into ah to get me through what I know are in inevitable challenges in the future.
Legacy Through Education and Scholarships
00:48:27
Speaker
So it is it is it is a practice of mine ah to to stay grounded in my spirituality um and and and start my day with gratitude and start my day with God. And, and then of course, moving forward with, you know, the body and, and really getting, you know, ourselves out there with nature and healthy. And then of course the mind is, is, you know, what we do for a living, most of us, right. What we do to, to,
00:48:59
Speaker
to enrich our minds. And so it's been it's been a habitual practice. it's been It's been a ritual to maintain. It's self-care um and and it's critical for all of us to sort of take time and and feed that part of our soul.
00:49:17
Speaker
I completely agree with you that there's so much about um us, ah the oneness, the theme of oneness and how there's, we add the many people I think focus so much on how we're different, but there's so much more about how we are more similar to each other and we waste time thinking about how ah what we're different when we can really do so much more if we focus on our humanity as one as one being, one people.
00:49:47
Speaker
And so I appreciate hearing that from you. um One of the other ah things I wanted, I was hoping that you would talk about is how and the the the Daniel Andrell Memorial Scholarship that you set up.
00:50:01
Speaker
Tell us more about that. Well, there's ah there's a divine story with it. so um So when Daniel, the shooting happened on Sunday, July 19, and I mentioned to you, I was ah hospitalized and I,
00:50:16
Speaker
I woke up on Wednesday, as I say it, and and then I was well enough to be discharged on Friday. Well, my husband was still fighting for his life. My husband was shot. ah Three bullets hit him, but they pierced five different areas of his body.
00:50:29
Speaker
So he was in ICU and I couldn't go far from him. So the marshals, I was under 24 hour, you know, protective custody. And so we had set up like a little compound in a hotel just blocks from the from the hospital.
00:50:44
Speaker
And that one of the nights I dreamt with Daniel and it was a very vivid dream. I still remember it. um And Daniel was ah in the dream wearing his favorite Catholic University gray sweatshirt with black lettering.
00:50:57
Speaker
And he was telling me how he wanted to still help his friends. And I said to him, Daniel, but how are you going to help your friends? You don't have a body. And where we spend the dream sort of trying to think about how he can still help people.
00:51:13
Speaker
And so I woke up from that dream and it was just so it was such a vivid dream. And and and I remember getting showered and going to the hospital that day. and um and I remember ah my sister-in-law pulling me aside and saying, I need to speak to you.
00:51:28
Speaker
And it was then in a conference room on the ICU floor that my sister-in-law said that a couple from Texas who we didn't know. saw the news and donated a large portion of money and hopes of starting a scholarship for Daniel Catholic University of America.
00:51:46
Speaker
And there, as I said, the idea of scholarships was born. And, um you know, obviously, I'm not involved in all of them because of my position, but organizations Rutgers Law, Rutgers Law School created a a fully endowed scholarship.
00:52:02
Speaker
Catholic University has one. Daniels High School got a fully endowed scholarship. And now Daniels Grammar School has a fully endowed scholarship as well. So out of this senseless tragedy, um we see light.
00:52:17
Speaker
And we see the the ability for students to go on um and get an education in memory of my son. and in and ah you you take that and you say there is those glimmers of love and hope and and really faith.
00:52:35
Speaker
That that we take this tragedy and we turn it to something positive. We make it more than just a horrible memory. We now have the power to say this will this will help others.
00:52:48
Speaker
And he and his dream ah will live on to help others. Yeah, his name is there and supporting the scholarships that will benefit future lawyers, future college students, um high school students.
Conclusion and Gratitude
00:53:02
Speaker
So he he is there and his memory is a blessing in that it's creating these opportunities for so many people yeah um that our time is almost up, Judge.
00:53:14
Speaker
And so um I just want to say thank you for for being you, for. being so inspirational. and We've met before at and Bar Associations and I've always you know admired you from afar to be able to talk to you right now and hear your story from when you were a child to where you are and you're continuing to do such great work. I'm just I'm in awe of you and I can thank you for for making time for me and for sharing um yourself and your stories so that many others could hear about your powerful and impactful life and how you continue to serve.
00:53:53
Speaker
You continue to serve us. And we're grateful to you for that. Oh, I thank you. And I thank you for this platform and this opportunity to to to share ah the messaging that I want the world to hear. And I'm just so grateful to Rutgers, so grateful to Rutgers Law for you know taking a chance on this kid from Union City and um and helping me understand that you know deep down inside we're all diamonds and we you know we we all shine. Rutgers helped me figure out in large part who i who I wanted to be and who I am. So I owe and a debt of gratitude to Rutgers and to all the professors and to the deans and to my fellow students for just helping me
00:54:41
Speaker
realize my dreams in life. And and I thank you for that. Well, you have certainly represented Rutgers Law School quite well, Your Honor. And so thank you for all you do.
00:54:54
Speaker
The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large nationally known university with a personal small campus experience.
00:55:10
Speaker
Learn more today by visiting us at law.rutgers.edu.