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"Bisexual Men Exist" is Just the Beginning for Vaneet Mehta
4.1k Plays1 year ago
Vaneet is back, and since his last visit to Two Bi Guys, he wrote his first book, "Bisexual Men Exist: A Handbook for Bisexual, Pansexual and M-Spec Men" -- available now wherever books are sold! We chatted about the process of researching, writing, and promoting his book before diving into its contents: Bi+ representation in media, coming out, dating and relationships, M-Spec intersectionality, what "M-Spec" means and why Vaneet wanted to use an "agnostic" term like that in his book's title, how queerness crosses over between sexuality and gender, how to find pride in a Bi+ or M-Spec identity, and much, much more.
If you've listened to this podcast before, you probably already believe that Bi+ men exist, but in Vaneet's book, this is the BEGINNING of the conversation, not the ultimate message. We exist, AND once we get beyond convincing people of this basic truth, there's so much more to discuss and learn about our community. Listen for an in-depth, free-flowing, true Bi+ 2.0 conversation, featuring two bi guys!
There are over 25 minutes of bonus content with Vaneet on my new Patreon -- we chatted more about dating and the huge variety of relationship styles among the Bi+ community, why certain relationships can be considered a success even if they eventually end, Bi+ invisibility in mental and sexual health research, intersectionality with a focus on the asexual and aromantic spectrums, and more about the challenges of writing Bi+ books in general and what we’d like to see more of in the Bi+ activist space. Subscribe here: www.Patreon.com/RobertBrooksCohen
Thanks for listening!
Buy Vaneet's book: https://us.jkp.com/products/bisexual-men-exist
Follow Vaneet on IG: https://www.instagram.com/nintendomad888/
Get 20% off Liquid I.V. -- https://zen.ai/APzgr1I0sD6_kQntndiKfA
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Transcript
Introduction to Book Season and Guest Vinit Mehta
00:00:07
Speaker
you
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Two Bye Guys. We're here with the continuation of book season. I wrote a book, everyone's writing books, so many bye books, very exciting, adding to the wealth of literature about bisexuality, pansexuality, and other things. And today we have another repeat guest back for a second time. I'm so excited to welcome back Vinit Mehta. Welcome to Two Bye Guys.
00:00:39
Speaker
Hi, thanks for having me back. I'm so excited to be here. Yay, so exciting to see you. It was back in season three, I think, that you were here and you had just started thinking about writing this book and we were talking about what might go in it. And now here you are and it's a real book and we can see it. It's real. Look at it. Look at it.
00:01:04
Speaker
So, so Vinit is an Indian bi guy living in London in case you missed the first episode, which you can go
Journey of Writing 'Bisexual Men Exist'
00:01:10
Speaker
back and listen to. But, you know, you're here now. So he's a writer, he's an activist, he's a software engineer. He created the hashtag bisexual men exist, which we talked a lot about in our first episode.
00:01:23
Speaker
And now, a few years later, he has published the book Bisexual Men Exist, a handbook for bisexual, pansexual, and M-spec men. So it is lovely to have you back. Congrats on the book. Amazing. Thank you. Honestly, all the coolest people are writing books. You should know because you're writing a book.
00:01:45
Speaker
I'm so glad to have it out there now. I'm sure you're getting that feeling at the moment where you're just holding on to this for so long and when it finally hits
00:01:58
Speaker
the wider world and you're like, it's not just me anymore. It's everyone else has it. It's a nice feeling. Right. Well, and it is a really long process of writing these books. I actually started mine in 2020 before I even knew it was a book. So it was like,
00:02:16
Speaker
but a really long process. But even once I knew it is a book and I'm actually writing it, it was six months of just sort of doing that by myself. And now I'm in a six month period of it's done and I'm just waiting for waiting to share it. So what was that like for you? Mine was a really long writing process. Mine was I signed a contract in May 2020. I had like a rough outline idea
00:02:43
Speaker
of what it was going to be. My original deadline was August 2021. Didn't meet that. But that was my original deadline. And I didn't finish it until January 2022, so a year before it came out, because it came out January this year. And then most of that year I was editing. So it was like, I think I got my first round of edits in like March. I think I was on like my editor and it was like the copy editor, whatever it's called.
00:03:11
Speaker
and the proofreader and then I got a sensitivity reader and that was like several rounds so it was like I got some in May and then I got some more in July and then some more in like August September or something and then it didn't finish until I would say around September it was like August September I think it finished
00:03:32
Speaker
And then, yeah, a few months of now, oh, God, I need to think about how I'm launching this and obligizing it and reaching out to people and be like, do you know I've got a book?
Writing Process: Short Articles vs. Books
00:03:42
Speaker
Do you want a copy of the book? I needed people to endorse this book, which, you know, the regime was like, please endorse my book.
00:03:51
Speaker
But yeah, it was a really long process and it's excruciating because I'm so used to writing articles or writing short form. I would write maybe anywhere between, you know, like five, six hundred words to two thousand words, maybe three thousand at a push.
00:04:09
Speaker
And then you get that immediate feedback. You write an article for, say, mental for Metro UK or whatever. And you send them your first draft. And by the end of the week, you've probably got your final draft, if not early the next week. And then it's publicized a couple of days later. It's a two-week turnaround. It's a two-year turnaround with no feedback, no anything for that whole time. You have no idea if people are reading it, enjoying it, because no one is.
00:04:38
Speaker
in your computer excruciating. Yeah, yeah, that is crazy, especially that long timetable. I mean, I'm like, and I'm in that period of like, it's far enough away that I don't have to make specific plans to promote the book yet. But it's on my mind a lot. I know very soon I'm gonna have to do that and plan a call with you so you can tell me what to do.
Personal Life Updates and Book Endorsement
00:05:04
Speaker
Honestly, it's so difficult because I was also moving flat at the same time as the lead up to the book launch. And so I was trying to go, day job, book launch, moving house, day job. And I was like, I don't know how I'm spinning these plates. I think they spun my share wheel, honestly.
00:05:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. I mean, keeping a day job through all this, yeah, that's a lot. Like, I've been working on various projects, but I wouldn't say I had a day job, at least for a few months like this. I got to focus on this entirely, which was nice, but also, you know, we'll see when the money comes in. It's gonna be a while to pay the bills. But you did ask me to do an endorsement, which I loved doing, and so I got to read the book
00:05:55
Speaker
I don't remember when that was, but it was a while ago now that I read it. And if you haven't read my endorsement out there, I'll tell you all now. I wrote that Bisexual Men Exist is the book I wish I had read when I was beginning to recognize my own bisexuality, which is true. I mean, this was sort of exactly the primer I was
00:06:17
Speaker
looking for and couldn't find, especially one that was sort of dedicated to male bisexuality, which I couldn't find. I wrote, it is comprehensive in scope, but straightforward and fun to read, full of real life examples and insights from actual bisexual men who really do exist, shockingly.
00:06:36
Speaker
not really. After four years hosting my podcast to buy guys, I still learn new things and found unique validation reading this book. So if you haven't already bought your copy, I recommend checking out Bisexual Man Exist by Vanneeth. Thank you. Thank you. So, I mean, I want to talk about the book and the response and what you were talking about. But like, before we get into it,
00:06:59
Speaker
What's new for you with that or with your bisexuality in general since we spoke, which I was probably late 2020, early 2021. I don't remember. But like, how's your sexuality evolved or changed or what role does it play in your life these days now that you're an author? I think it's weird because I think even a few years ago,
00:07:27
Speaker
I was definitely speaking and writing a lot about bisexuality, but when you have a book out, suddenly it lends a lot of credence to you as a person. Suddenly a lot of people are like, oh, this is a person we should talk to or we should know.
00:07:46
Speaker
You become like, I don't know if I'm necessarily a figurehead, but I think some people may see it like that. Like they're a person doing the work. And it's kind of jarring sometimes. It's very much like, oh, God, I'm just a person who barely knows what I'm doing. Please, please. And I think that that was a big thing, writing the book as well, as I remember.
00:08:09
Speaker
there was a moment near the end of the writing process where I was just so terrified because I was like, as you said, there's not a lot of books on my sexual men. It's not a thing that exists a lot. And I just felt this big burden on my shoulders of like, what if I get this wrong? What if I don't represent our community well enough? What if I don't give the information people need? What if I don't help in the way I want to help?
Exploring Identity and Gender Expression
00:08:36
Speaker
What if I harm? What if I harm? God forbid.
00:08:40
Speaker
And so that can feel quite weighty sometimes. Sometimes it can feel quite exhausting. In terms of, I guess, my own personal sexuality, I don't know, I feel like I'm kind of leaning even farther into, I guess, myself. I'm trying to grow up my hair. I've got my ears pierced. You can't see it much, but I've got my ears pierced.
00:09:08
Speaker
Um, and I'm, uh, gonna get my nose pierced as well. I'm going to try to like lean into, I guess myself and kind of who I want to be a little bit more. Um, I feel like I was always already doing that, but I want to like, I want to do it more. Um, there's like areas I want to explore, which maybe isn't entirely my sexuality. Maybe it's more my gender. Um, I still like, I guess see myself as like a man, but I'm also kind of like, well, what is a man?
00:09:37
Speaker
really when you think about it. And I often say that I can't really see myself as just a man. I see myself as a queer man, or I like to use the word fag, which I know people don't. I'm like, that's what I am. That's the only way you can really describe how I feel about my gender. It doesn't really make sense when I just say man. Interesting.
00:10:01
Speaker
In terms of my, I guess, my life, I mean, I'm in a monogamous relationship with a guy, which I think I was just dating back when we first spoke. But we've been together for three years now, and we own a place together. So a lot of change is very weird. I'm no longer living in my parents' house. I've got my own place in East London. It's really nice, two bed flat. You might see in the background, there's paint samples on the wall.
00:10:30
Speaker
pick out what color we're painting the walls. Yeah, I don't know. I would say I'm also very tired. I think no one really tells you just how difficult the process is of writing. And then after you've finished, you've then got to do promo. And that's a few months. And then you're like, oh, I have not had a rest for God knows how long.
00:11:00
Speaker
Yeah. And it's just kind of felt like that a lot. So hopefully rest soon. Hopefully rest soon. Yes, hopefully soon. Maybe this is the last of your book tour. It really is. I mean, the whole process of writing the book for me was a lot of work, but especially the last couple months where I really
00:11:22
Speaker
had to finish it and was doing the majority of the writing and rewriting. That was hard. I was singularly focused and it took a really, really long time to do it and to get it right. And piercing my ears is the next on my list too, but I'm afraid it's going to hurt. Doesn't it hurt? I'm afraid.
00:11:43
Speaker
hurt that much actually. I think other parts are worse like if you do like the other parts of your ear but if you're just doing lobes it was like a little pinch and then for a few weeks you have to clean it and it's a bit you and it gets a bit bloody and stuff but otherwise it's like fine. I've had tattoos so I'm like it was nothing compared to that.
00:12:05
Speaker
Okay. All right. That's next on my list because I've like, I mean, I'm still doing the nail polish thing, but I'm kind of outgrowing that I need something else. And that's really interesting about like, you know, queer man as a gender and queerness sort of being part of gender, which actually makes a lot of sense to me because like you, I feel comfortable in a cis male identity, but I'm also like,
00:12:29
Speaker
but I don't necessarily want to be boxed in by what that means or what most straight men are out there doing, which is boring. And it's difficult because for ages, I remember sitting there thinking, well, am I this? Am I that? Am I that? Am I non-binary? And I was like, well, I know you don't have to have the pronouns in your non-binary, but I also don't feel like
00:12:54
Speaker
I don't know, I don't feel like dysphoria when I get called he-him or when I get called a man or when I get like male affirmation. But at the same time, I just don't feel in tune with what people want from me as a man. It just doesn't make sense to me. And I think a lot of people don't tend to see me as much of a man. I think my early experiences of growing up was being called gay just because I wasn't being like the right kind of man.
00:13:23
Speaker
I get called, like, what I find really interesting is how Tufts have all this rhetoric about like misgendering and stuff. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, as a cis man, I've been misgendered numerous times because something about my voice and something about my hair, I get called she, I get called ma'am, I get called all kinds of stuff. So I'm just like, it's very baffling to me, but at the same time, I'm just like,
00:13:51
Speaker
none of this gender stuff makes any sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it also, it's all seems so interrelated the more I talk about it with people and like, used to be like, okay, this is what gender identity is and this is what sexuality is.
Complexity of Queer Labels and Personal Identity
00:14:06
Speaker
And that's helpful to learn about and to discuss it. But I feel like I gravitated more toward this word queer more and more lately because it's
00:14:15
Speaker
kind of more broad and all-encompassing and it can apply to your sexuality but also to your gender or other things. And they're linked in ways like, you know, I always kind of thought about attractions of like you're attracted to certain genders or all genders or whatever, but actually like I'm attracted to queerness also. Like I'm more attracted to queer women than straight women and so it's not just
00:14:45
Speaker
the gender identity, but it's this sort of whole package and mindset and way of identifying and thinking about the world that is interesting to me. So what you said makes sense. I feel like there's something about this heteronormativity, which I just find a little icky. And I think most people would say that. It's kind of like, ew, I don't want that.
00:15:08
Speaker
um yeah i think it just it's and there's nothing wrong with i'm not turned off by people who are necessarily like in line with their gender you know like overly masculine men or overly feminine women who like you know like wearing dresses or the men who like love to go walking out and all that kind of stuff
00:15:27
Speaker
But I feel like there needs to be something that kind of like, I need a bit of spice, you know? That's how I say it. I need a bit of flavor. I can't just have you be this like very basic idea of what it means to be a man or a woman. I want it to be a little more exciting. I want it to be a little more interesting. Because ultimately, yeah, it's that queerness, it's that fucking with the gender role or the gender concepts that I find the most interesting.
00:15:54
Speaker
Yeah, well, and it's also what you said about like leaning into whatever it is. It's like, it's more interesting to lean into, even if it's something that is heteronormative. But if you're leaning into it, that's kind of more interesting than just being something by default, or because you want to conform, or you don't want to make a choice. But like, you know, a cis woman wanting to be really feminine, that you can lean into that in interesting ways. But like,
00:16:22
Speaker
a cis guy just kind of conforming to whatever because it's easiest, that's less interesting. Yeah, it's a little boring, it's a little dull. Yes, okay, everyone do something weird and interesting and try it, see what happens. How much do you say it's really basic as well? I'm just like, oh, I want to grow up my hair and I want to plait it and I want to wear dangly earrings.
00:16:45
Speaker
why? What does that mean? And I'm like, well, it's not anything you would let a man do. So you tell me, um, I just want to look like Link, honestly. I'm just like, as a kingdom, I'm like, why is this gender euphoria? I don't know how to describe that. He's still a guy, but I'm like, that's what I want to be. Yeah, I like it. I like it. That's very valid.
00:17:16
Speaker
So we talked a little bit about the process of writing the book. We got into that a little. I guess I'm curious, I have a few questions, but did you learn anything about yourself or your sexuality through any point of that process that was unexpected? I mean, because you said some stuff has changed, but did some of it come from the reflection of writing the book?
00:17:42
Speaker
I think so, yeah. I feel like any time I do have any kind of conversations with people about my sexuality, I feel like I always learn something. You know, I've had times where I've been on a panel or I've chaired a panel and I've learned something and I always find it so fascinating and I'm always like understanding new things.
00:18:05
Speaker
Like I remember once I was chairing a panel and someone was talking about this, this deep rootedness of like bisexuality and greed and how people say it's greedy and how that so often comes in line with middle class. So why representations of bisexuality are so often sort of white, cis, middle class women is because it plays into the idea of greedy and
Insights on Bisexual Representation
00:18:29
Speaker
exuberance. And I was like, oh, that's fascinating.
00:18:34
Speaker
I think through the book, I really learned. I mean, I knew I wasn't alone, but I really like there was something I was interviewing someone. I think all my interviews were kind of done over Google Docs. So they would write stuff and I would read through it and I would read through it and go, why is this just like what I would have said? Like it's exactly like word for word exactly what I would have said.
00:18:56
Speaker
And it made me feel really seen, but it also made me feel even more angry that this is like, why have we all had to deal with this? Can no one have a good time? It did also make me feel really at home in terms of having quite a joy.
00:19:14
Speaker
um like seeing seeing some of the things people said about like their marriages where like they came out to their wives and actually their marriage even when it hit a lucky patch and then improved later and they have a much better understanding and love and acceptance of each other it's so nice it's so nice yeah um and it made me really feel like i could have that um that is is attainable um which for a long time i felt like it wasn't yeah yeah and i think
00:19:43
Speaker
I really, it really pushed me forward of this idea of like, yeah, owning yourself. It's something I always try to do, but really just like having so much of people just like owning themselves and being themselves. It just, it just pushes you, you know, just like puts a fire in your belly of like, yes, I'm going to be me. I'm going to be unashamedly me.
00:20:05
Speaker
So yeah, I would say the biggest thing that I got from the book was catharticism, for sure. Like seeing other people experience the same thing, it really made me like get out some of my emotions. I think I also learned some new experiences. You know, I wrote stuff in that book which is very outside of my own.
00:20:29
Speaker
I wrote about stuff which was about sexual violence, about people who are trans and bi, people who are asexual or aromantic and bi or M-spec. And it was really fascinating to see those intersections, which is completely outside of my own experience.
00:20:48
Speaker
and it really made me understand bisexuality and M-Spec identities in a wider picture in a way that I probably didn't have as much before.
00:20:59
Speaker
cool. That's awesome. That's awesome. And yeah, so our books are different, but I actually think they come really well as a box set, and there's a little bit of crossover from one end to the other. So your book is more of a primer and sort of covering all the topics and giving you all the information about this identity.
00:21:25
Speaker
And then mine has a chapter about that at the beginning, but then it's very specifically about married bisexual men, bi men who are married to women and just sort of telling their stories. But you have a section in one of the chapters about that. And it was interesting for me reading that because it was different people telling their stories, but very similar themes and very similar what you just said of like,
00:21:51
Speaker
When people can be open about their sexuality, even in a monogamous, straight-passing marriage, it makes a huge difference in their lives, in their mental health, in their communication, in their fulfillment of their identity.
00:22:08
Speaker
our books have that in common, you should buy both and read the needs and then read mine one after the other. This is the thing, like obviously you're already working on the book at the same time as me, but one of the things that I really wanted from the book is like, my book is not the end of the conversation, it's very much the beginning and I try and cover a lot of ground but it really means that I only scratch the surface of a lot of it.
00:22:36
Speaker
And my biggest hope was that, like, in the years to come, either because people are already doing it like yourself or people are inspired after reading it, that people will delve further into some of those topics. And it's really exciting to think that, like, yeah, now there's going to be, like, my book and there's going to be your book next to my book about, like, bisexual men married to women. And then, like, there's J.R. Yousef's book coming out soon about bisexual men speak, which, again, isn't inspired by my book, but is, like, exciting.
00:23:05
Speaker
to just like have those next to each other. Exactly Zane's Boy Slut, which is obviously more about like polyamory and bisexuality and like sexual liberation. And it's like, like these aren't inspired by mine, but it's really exciting to just see that like, I only do this much of all of those topics and seeing them like become bigger. And I'm just like, I really hope that like five years down the line, there's even more, but people are like,
00:23:32
Speaker
I read your book and I thought that wasn't enough and I hated that it wasn't enough. I'm like, that complaint is valid. Please, if you're going to hate my book, please hate it because I didn't talk about that one topic enough. But hate it and then make your own because I want to read it so much.
00:23:48
Speaker
Right. That's awesome. I love it. Yeah. Because I mean, there's a bunch of chapters in there that each could be its own entire series. Yeah. And so that's what you were doing with this book is giving the overview. But there's so many diverse experiences about all the things that you talked about. So yeah, hopefully we'll get into it for many years to come. It is close.
00:24:14
Speaker
I'm so excited just to buy shelf expanding like I'm writing a by book like yes the agenda is lacking yes exactly exactly a whole a whole little bookshelf of pink purple and blue covers of various degrees
00:24:40
Speaker
Hydration is so important, you know, I'm always saying that visibility is really important for the bi community, representation is really important, access to resources is so important, but none of that is possible if we're all dehydrated,
Promotion and Explanation of MSpec
00:24:54
Speaker
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00:25:02
Speaker
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00:25:25
Speaker
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00:25:41
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00:26:18
Speaker
Let's get into it a little. Let's talk about some of the stuff that's in the book and the next level of it. But I kind of want to start with the title, Bisexual Men Exist, a handbook for bisexual, pansexual, and M-SPAC men.
00:26:34
Speaker
I think we've talked about it a little bit here and there, but what is MSpec and why did you choose to list all three of those in the title? And I guess what do you think is the state of the label discussion of what's the importance of why you did that?
00:26:53
Speaker
So, I mean, the subtitle was really decided by my publisher, but I really wanted MSpec somewhere on the cover. And MSpec, for anyone who's listening who doesn't know what that means, MSpec stands for multigender attracted spectrum. And it's a really, it's one of the many umbrella terms that people in the community use to collect all of the labels where people are attracted to more than one gender, multiple genders.
00:27:20
Speaker
um so you have bisexual, ansexual, polysexual, omnisexual, bicurious, homofleximal, heterofleximal, whatever else there's so many um and that's like one of the many umbrella terms um i specifically wanted to think that in not only on the title but throughout the book because i really wanted to drive home this point of
00:27:42
Speaker
Yes, there are a lot of different labels and yes, they have some key differences and some people only identify with one or the other, etc. And there are some unique experiences and discrimination within those. But ultimately, there's a lot more that binds us.
00:28:01
Speaker
and I really wanted to drive that home is that even though all the statistics and research and stuff focuses on bisexual people, it doesn't just impact people who are self-identified bisexual, it impacts people who identify as pansexual, polysexual, omnisexual, people who don't even use the word but maybe are like behaviorally bisexual as they often say. I wanted to drive that home and I really wanted to use MSpec rather than sort of bisexual plus or other terms out there
00:28:31
Speaker
Um, because I really wanted to try and use a term that was a little more agnostic. I don't think anyone uses an M spec as an individual identity and therefore it's a much better umbrella term than something like bisexual plus, because it then doesn't make this like, a lot of people don't like being the plus, you know, like for ages, it was like lesbian and gay and the others, like we didn't like that. Now it's LGBT plus and asexual people were like, hello. Intellectually people were like, what about me?
00:29:02
Speaker
And now you have the LGBTQIA+, but like being under the plus can feel very like, oh, I'm a minority and I'm a minority even within the minority. And so I really wanted to try and use it really just collectively brings us together and really try and focus on the experiences that all of us collectively have to deal with, all of the structures that we have to deal with like monosexism and palo-centrism.
00:29:30
Speaker
homophobia and biphobia. I really wanted to just focus on the fact that like this is something that affects all of us. Right. I like that. I'm still like I always struggle with this label of wars because I totally agree with you that it's like it often prevents us from realizing the solidarity of this community and getting it like what's really important. Not that our individual identities and how we express them isn't important. It is. But when it causes us to
00:30:00
Speaker
invalidate someone else's identity or their choice, especially based on a misconception. That's frustrating and difficult. And I agree, so many people who would fall under this M-Spec umbrella, many don't want to identify as often for a perceived something about it that's
00:30:20
Speaker
that's transphobic or something. There's all these different things, but I like using the word agnostic. I was thinking of it as kind of like a more clinical term and no one identifies as that personally, which actually is helpful because then you don't get that pushback. It's really just a clinical term for attraction to multi genders.
00:30:46
Speaker
And it is nice to have the term like that. I kind of wish it would be used more. But then again, I also like the history of the word bye. So it's always a tough debate.
00:30:57
Speaker
It's one of those difficult things. I think I was really trying to be careful to avoid label wars as well because I feel like so often these label wars aren't even fueled by us. It's fueled by people who just are so obsessed with trying to categorize us. They're like, but you're bi. What does that mean? It's like, okay, so all bi people are this, all people are like this. You're two separate groups. And it's like, that is just so far from the reality.
00:31:27
Speaker
I know so many people who use it interchangeably who say I'm
00:31:32
Speaker
more in line with this definition, but I use that word. There are people who will go, well, I just like the colors of that one more, or the flag more, or this more. I like the fact that that has a history, or I like the fact that, and there are people who say, you know, I use pansexual, not because bi is transphobic, but that I get to avoid the conversation. And I think that's valid. I think people go, well, I like, I'm more pan, but I like to be, say bi, because people are more likely to know what that means, and that's valid. Right.
00:32:02
Speaker
And I think people miss that. And so they try and get involved in this whole fight and go, what does it mean? And I'm like, you know what? Maybe you just don't need to know. Maybe it's just too beyond you. Just accept that they both exist and they're both valid and we can move on. Right.
Label Wars and Community Unity
00:32:22
Speaker
Well, and a lot of the sort of debate is fueled by
00:32:26
Speaker
people that we really shouldn't be giving the time of day. Like a lot of it is TERFs who don't think trans people exist saying what, defining what bi is. And that bi means only attracted to cis men and cis women. And their voices in that debate to me are not only irrelevant, they're actually damaging to the community. So it's like if they're fueling that debate and then there's pan people who don't want to identify as bi because of the TERFs definition of bi,
00:32:56
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's fucked up. And so like, on the one hand, I do want to push back against that sometimes, but then you don't want to get too into the weeds on it because it's a manufactured conflict. So yeah, it's completely manufactured. And I think ultimately, like it keeps us it keeps us in this place where we spend all of our energy fighting crap like that, and sort of focusing on the fact that like we have some of the worst mental health.
00:33:21
Speaker
And we're not getting the sexual health help we need. And I'm just like, why? We can't keep spending our energy this way. But that's what they want. They want to exhaust us, to tie us out on debates that don't mean anything. Because there's so much solidarity between bi and people.
00:33:42
Speaker
and they're trying to drive a wedge between it by trying to make a fight amongst each other instead of coming together and going, we have a lot in common, let's fight everyone else. There's a lot of us, why are we doing this to each other?
00:33:56
Speaker
Um, but yeah, I just, I really wanted to try and avoid all of that because I just, I feel like it ends up just being such a waste of time. Cool. Okay. So then we can move on, but we had to discuss it. So, so the first chapter of your book,
00:34:17
Speaker
is about representation and education, which I thought was really interesting to start there. And it really kind of, as a TV writer, it hooked me right away. Usually the representation in TV is like towards the end of the book and in mine it's at the end. And it's very, my section is very short. So you wrote in that first chapter about like a lot of examples of bad, quote, bad by representation and how that affected your
00:34:46
Speaker
identity growing up. And you listed a lot of these tropes like the no bisexuals trope, the ambiguously bi trope, the Justin experiment trope, anything that moves, depraved bisexual. So can you briefly or tell us some of your favorite examples of bad bi representation and what's wrong with it and how that affected you growing up?
00:35:09
Speaker
See it's so difficult because even like this is again like how I learned something through writing the book because I was writing this and at first I was like I just want to moan about all the jokes I hate and then I actually watched the video that you put up about Shiri from Shiri and Jacob and then I watched, listened to the podcast and then I spoke to Jacob and then I like
00:35:36
Speaker
trying to make that section more well-rounded of like well actually what is bad and how do we define bad? It's not so simple and are we playing into purity culture and like assimilation culture by saying it's bad just because they have sex with those other people? But I think it's hard to like straddle this ground right because it's one of those things where
00:36:01
Speaker
Some of this stuff has impacted people. Some people have come out as bi, seen that, and been impacted by it, or felt worse about themselves because of it, or had people use that as a way to
00:36:17
Speaker
shame someone when I say, oh yeah, you're like blah, blah on TV, ha, ha, ha. Oh yeah, do you do this? And you know, sometimes it can play into it, but also when they're never naming bisexual, how do you know anyone's looking at this and going, that's bi, that's what bi is. It's really difficult. And so I think for me, the ones that get on my nerves the most is when people don't state bisexuality, that's the one that bugs me the most. You get these characters,
00:36:47
Speaker
who I'll ambiguously buy, who clearly make all of these hints and cues, but won't say the damn word.
00:36:57
Speaker
Ultimately, what that ends up doing is leaving it up for debate. And maybe that, again, is really useful. I think, again, I was learning from Jacob and Shiri's discussion on your podcast about how we can... Media is for us to decide and we can take something from it regardless of what the media tells us is in it. You get a lot of people to say that's so queer coded. How many people have been like, the mummy is so queer coded? There's no queerness in there, but it's so queer coded, right?
00:37:27
Speaker
But I think the thing that can become frustrating is you don't end up getting actual representation because they never actually say that this is bi-representation. And you end up having to have debate people who are saying it's one thing or the other because obviously everyone loves binaries. And so everyone's like, no, no, they're actually straight. No, no, they're actually gay.
00:37:56
Speaker
And some people reject their own experiences. You'll see so often queer people will go, oh, no, but she was dating a man and now she's dating a woman. So she's gay. And it's like, is that not bi? I don't understand. Is that not bi? And they go, no, because she didn't. And it's them projecting their own experience of going, well, I dated a man. And then I realized who I was and I dated a woman. So clearly that's what's happening here.
00:38:23
Speaker
And what happens as well when you don't name bisexuality is people don't know it exists, right? Like growing up, there were definitely representation that was probably bi, but if they never ever said it,
00:38:39
Speaker
and you don't even know the word exists, and never saying it, how are you ever supposed to find out the word exists? Right. Exactly. I mean, it's like a catch-22 and it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy because it's like, well, okay, those characters are exhibiting maybe by traits or interests, but not saying it so then it's invisible so then people don't want to identify that way.
00:39:00
Speaker
I also think having worked from the inside of it, it works the other way too where like creators and writers and actors and people involved in making this culture
00:39:11
Speaker
if they're not out or they're not being explicit, then they're not going to put it in the story that way. And so I think some of it must come from the invisibility working that way. Like we know that the vast majority of bi men specifically are not out. Like the statistics vary depending on where you look. But it's like somewhere between 80 and 90% of bi men are not out. Maybe 90 is too high. It's in the 80s.
00:39:41
Speaker
And that's a lot. A number of gay and lesbian people who are closeted is in the 20-ish percent range. So it's a massive difference. And so if there are creators and writers writing about the gay and lesbian experience, it's mostly going to be about out people who are saying they're gay or lesbian, or if they're not out, are very
00:40:05
Speaker
aware of it. And the buy experience is a lot more challenging to wrap your head around, I think. I don't want to say the whole experience is more challenging, but it's a difficult thing to recognize that you're M-Spec or buy or fluid. And so as you're working those things out, if you're writing a show,
00:40:26
Speaker
it's just harder, I think, to put it in there explicitly if you aren't there yourself. So it's kind of this vicious cycle. And I remember being at SVU a TV writer dabbling with these issues in my head
00:40:44
Speaker
but because I wasn't out, I couldn't really attack it head on. And so that's why you see a network show where somebody is married to a woman but going out at night for gay sex and they call the character gay or they don't say anything and everyone assumes he's gay. If you don't have someone in that room who's bi or who really knows a lot about
00:41:10
Speaker
the M spec experience, then that's the default that's going to happen because that's what happens in the world. And so that's why I really wanted to start with that chapter is that ultimately that representation in education, I feel like sets the groundwork for
00:41:27
Speaker
the way you navigate the world,
Representation and Education in Understanding Bisexuality
00:41:29
Speaker
right? If you see something on screen, if you can see your lived experience or you're being taught it in schools or from family or whatever, then ultimately you're going to be able to be that thing, right? If you know, for seven years I didn't know the word bisexual despite having that attraction, like
00:41:48
Speaker
If I knew the word, that already would have helped. Then you could deal with the fact that the word has baggage and people see it in a certain way. But at least I would have known the word. And so it's a really difficult thing to reckon with. It's like, if you aren't getting that representation, if you aren't getting that education, if it's not visible, how can you be it? And so I think that was why I really wanted to start with our chapters. I feel like that sets the groundwork for all the rest of the chapters.
00:42:18
Speaker
Right. It was an interesting way to start and I loved it. When I first heard Rosa on Brooklyn Nine-Nine use the word bisexual, it made me cry even though that scene is pretty straightforward. But it was just the use of the word that made me really
00:42:35
Speaker
cry that it's so hard to do that. And more recently, I really liked Heartstopper and the explicitness of his bisexuality and the way he came out to his mom. And that was just the perfect coming out scene, I thought. Are there examples of, quote, good by representation lately you've seen that you want to share?
00:42:58
Speaker
I mean those two are probably my favorite. There are definitely examples that I can point to and say even though they didn't say the word, sometimes I still enjoyed it. Like there was like Ambrose from Chilling Adventures of Sabrina where he has like a whole ass orgy with like women and men and it's all very hot and I'm like
00:43:18
Speaker
appreciate this. I don't think they ever say his identity. But yeah, I would say Heartstop and Brooklyn Nine-Nine definitely hit up there because of the explicit usage and the fact that they're main characters as well. I feel like so often you'll get someone who's bisexual, who is a side character, who will come out with a couple of episodes and then will disappear. But yeah, we need more of it.
00:43:49
Speaker
I was having a conversation recently with another person who's writing a bi book, and I'm going to appear a little bit in there. And there's a chapter on representation. And she asked, what do I want to see more of? And I just said, more of everything.
00:44:06
Speaker
like there isn't a specific thing I want to see more of. I just want to see more authentic, diverse representations of bisexuality because it is such a crazy spectrum. I don't mean crazy. I mean like an enormous spectrum.
00:44:24
Speaker
crazy large and diverse spectrum of experiences and that's kind of to me what is not quite out there in pop culture yet is like how different this experience can be for everyone and yet there's a worldview that unites it. But there isn't necessarily an experience that unites this identity. There's no one thing that all bi people have experienced or gone through. There's a lot of little things that can feel similar but
00:44:53
Speaker
there's the trajectory is not is usually not the same for any two people. And that's that's what I would love to see is like I don't mind if you have bisexual characters who are like immoral or amal or you know depraved or villainous or whatever they are. I don't mind that as much as long as you have
00:45:13
Speaker
a wide range and you're not just making every single one of them this like bad guy. Like I want to see the rich and varied experience from our community. I want to see by people of color. I want to see by man and by non-binary people and by trans people. I want to see all of the different people that you see and all of the different types and all of the different experiences, not just like
00:45:38
Speaker
the cookie cutter, middle class, like, you know, white woman, you know, the Carrie Bradshaw, Carrie Bradshaw wasn't biphobic, you know, like, I want to see that. I want to see stuff that isn't just that, you know. Right. You know what I also want to see now that this is making me think of it is like, I want to see
00:45:58
Speaker
MSpec by people in conflict with each other. Because I know a lot of it is like this double discrimination, which you wrote about in the book where we are discriminated against from both sides, from the straight community and the gay and lesbian community. But there's conflict between bi people who are very different from each other. And that's pretty interesting too and pretty real. Yeah, I would love that.
00:46:23
Speaker
I would also really, I would really love to see, I feel like every time I watch media which has a queer person in it, they somehow don't know any other queer people. Is it too hard to ask for them to have a community?
00:46:41
Speaker
Because it just feels really jarring that these people never seem to have an actual community. How are you the only queer person in your... That's unrealistic. I don't know a single queer person who has zero queer friends. It just doesn't make sense.
00:46:57
Speaker
So she's like in major cities. I just finished watching Shrinking season one and they have a gay character in it. And he's like gay character in a relationship with a gay character. And I'm pretty sure all of the people he spends with are straight. Like if they're not straight, they haven't made it clear enough. And I'm just like...
00:47:17
Speaker
That's odd. That's odd. Yeah. Yeah. I know. That makes sense. I want to see that too. And I want to see what happens in those communities, not just the conflict between different communities. Yeah.
00:47:34
Speaker
This podcast is sponsored by Zencaster and we are also part of the Zencaster Creator Network. You've probably heard me talk about this many times but I love Zencaster. It has made everything so easy for me and streamlined and has made sure the quality of this podcast is as high as it possibly can be. The first couple seasons were pretty haphazard and I needed a better solution and I found it with Zencaster. This is our fourth season on Zencaster.
00:48:01
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:48:49
Speaker
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00:49:09
Speaker
You also wrote in that chapter about the negative education that most of us get about bisexuality as we're growing up.
Impact of Negative Education and Support for Change
00:49:18
Speaker
So just briefly, can you tell us, because it frames a lot of the book. We're not going to go point by point, but what does that mean and how do we kind of change that societally? I think that's a big question. That's the rest of the episode.
00:49:35
Speaker
Like I think so the negative representation is so often like you probably wouldn't even get it in schools because schools would have just not have taught you bisexuality at all but it was in like sort of mainstream media and one of the big examples was during the AIDS crisis they said that bisexual men are a spectre like a vector of disease they're going to infect straight women all of this stuff
00:50:01
Speaker
And what it really taught is this idea that bisexuality is wrong. Bisexuality is bad. It's evil. It's going to infect you. All of these really awful negative things. And ultimately what it did is it caused people to not come out to stay in the closet, to hide their sexuality. And we all know how damaging the closet can be. So that obviously leads to worse mental health outcomes.
00:50:29
Speaker
it means that they're obviously not going to be connected to the community, which means that they're not going to have the same resources to offer mental health or sexual health. And so there's a lot that ends up being missed because of the fact that these people aren't out and so often these people aren't out because they either don't know it exists or they very acutely know how badly they will be seen by the lesser society for coming out.
00:50:55
Speaker
And so much of that is fueled by this negative education, these negative ideas of bisexuality. How we solve it, I feel like that question might be above me. I mean, there's no easy answer for that one, I know.
00:51:13
Speaker
But I honestly think that the place we can start is by having society fund bisexual communities because ultimately by giving the bisexual communities the money, they can then have a platform and they can have their voices heard effectively.
00:51:33
Speaker
I think so often what happens is you have a lot of really big, really great bisexual communities, but they aren't able to get their footing in in the same way that a generic, not generic, but like a wide range LGBTQIA plus community would be able to do. When you compare something like a still bisexual or bi-resource center compared to GLAAD or HRC, like they're on two very different platforms, right?
00:52:01
Speaker
And everyone's listening to GLAAD. Is everyone listening to Bisexual Resource Centre? Probably not. Ultimately, if we give Bisexual Resource Centre some more money and we put them in a room with people who give a shit and will give them connections and will put them into spaces and make room for them, ultimately they can do a lot of work to fix this.
00:52:25
Speaker
but because they don't, we're at the whim of cis-hep people creating these debates of does bisexuality exist? Can bisexual men really be bisexual men? Should we maybe measure their erections just to check? Just in case, just in case.
00:52:43
Speaker
And so that was like the main thing behind my book is a lot of people go bisexual men exist. Isn't that obvious? And I'm like, yeah, sure. But that's the start of the book. Like you really got to like accept that going in because I'm not going to go. So I'm not going to go through the book, say, let me tell you about that bisexual men exist. I'm going through the book and say they exist. That's a fact. Now, let me tell you the problems about the fact that you won't believe us. That's the book.
00:53:12
Speaker
Right. Right. I love it. Yes. And I remember that that study among others that always pops up now and again, and it's like, Come on. Okay, well, I love that framing of the book. So so speaking of you wrote a whole chapter about coming out also. Yes.
00:53:29
Speaker
And there were a couple interesting things in there that I thought were new to me that I'll get to, but one of them was that almost every person you spoke to for quotes and stuff said they wished they had come out earlier.
Coming Out and Embracing Bisexuality
00:53:43
Speaker
So I'm curious for your reflection on that and has your perspective about coming out changed over time or over writing the book?
00:53:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's one of those things where I definitely felt like that a lot. I struggled with that a lot because I didn't come out until I was 24, despite having feelings when I was around 11. I was 32 and I didn't realize for so long.
00:54:10
Speaker
And it's not even about realizing internally and going, oh, I'm going to deny this. It's not even realizing it internally because you can't even believe that it's real, right? You're trying to go, oh, I could be this thing. And your brain's immediately going, no, you can't. That's not a thing you can be. Pick one. These are your choices. You've got to pick one.
00:54:33
Speaker
And so it was trying to grapple with that. I think what's really difficult there is when you talk about stuff about wanting to come out sooner, I definitely feel like that a lot. There's definitely times where I'm like, I wish I did, I wonder how different my life would be. But I'm also like, okay, but imagine if I did come out sooner, how different my life would be, derogatory, like negative. I'm so happy now, I have such a lovely life.
00:55:03
Speaker
I, if I came out sooner, would I have any of this? Like, what if I could have had a much better life, but what if I didn't? What if actually this was the right way to go? It sucks because no one should have to go through this trauma. No one should have to be in the closet for that long. No one should have to deal with that. And we shouldn't be shaped by trauma. It's awful.
00:55:28
Speaker
but ultimately that is unfortunately or fortunately my life and it's really about reconciling that and coming to terms with it and going okay that's the way it had to be but let's make the best of it.
00:55:44
Speaker
Right. I love that. I mean, I can understand a lot of why people think that and I kind of think it too, like, I wish I could have realized this sooner and come out sooner, but I couldn't. There were just so many obstacles to realizing it and realizing it was valid and getting to the point where I felt comfortable enough to share it with others and valid enough internally that
00:56:11
Speaker
I could share it. And so it's just not an easy process. Your journey is your journey and you can't force that if you're not ready for it because that could be worse than holding it in until you're ready. And you also wrote in that chapter about the importance of hearing other people's stories, which both of our books are kind of implicitly about, is about sharing other stories to validate you. And when I think back to when I came out,
00:56:41
Speaker
It was right after I finally went to a bi-discussion group in New York and heard other people's stories, heard them talk about it, and realized that there were real people who thought the way I did, and that was what allowed me to come out. I don't think I ever could have done it before I had that experience, really.
00:57:03
Speaker
Yeah, it was one of those things in my book that I was like, I really wanted to be driven by the people, because ultimately, statistics and research and papers and all of this is incredibly useful. But it's not very humanizing. Yeah, it can feel you can feel very removed from it. Like if I tell you 48% of bisexual men haven't come out to anyone in their family,
00:57:25
Speaker
You're like, oh wow, that's a lot. And then it just kind of, you kind of just move fast, right? If I tell you, hey, here's this person who isn't out to anyone in their family, here's how they're struggling, here's how much pain it's causing. Suddenly there's a person you can think about, you can visualize, you can empathize with.
00:57:44
Speaker
Right. And I think that that, for me, is a lot stronger. Obviously, that's the allyship side of it. But for us, as bisexual men, it really makes you feel less alone. It makes you feel less isolated because you go, oh, that's, oh, I see you. I see you. And suddenly you don't feel alone.
00:58:04
Speaker
Right. And that's a huge part of your book because you have so many stories and quotes from other people. And it's essentially the thesis of my book is like, I'm not trying to convince you of anything necessarily, but here are 13 stories of guys who have been through some kind of similar journey and whatever you take from that. And so many interesting stories.
00:58:28
Speaker
Yeah, they were all really different, yeah. Like, I was like, obviously, I'm going to say I have bet it for like, so I can endorse it. You can see it on Amazon now. Pre-order, pre-order, blah, blah, blah. Go look at Vinit's endorsement on Amazon. It's up there. It's lovely. Thank you.
00:58:44
Speaker
You're welcome and there are so many wonderful stories in there and I think that that's so important is that we showcase that we don't just focus on one experience but we show everything the good the bad the ugly everything in between it you know and I think that that's that's a really great way to showcase our community.
00:59:02
Speaker
Right, thank you. Yeah, and also in that chapter on coming out, there's one other thing I want to point out because it was kind of a helpful thing for me to frame this in a new thing that I liked as advice. You wrote to people that as you're questioning this, deciding if you want to come out, try to enjoy the questioning.
00:59:27
Speaker
Yeah. And I loved that. And you wrote about the joys of experimentation. And I think as I was going through some of it, especially initially, was like, what is happening? I have to figure it out. I have to try this and see if I like it. And a lot of it was a little stressful in terms of what's the ultimate decision going to be. But now looking back, and at a certain point, I got to this point of,
00:59:54
Speaker
bisexuality is kind of about the questioning and the exploration. And that's what's really exciting about it is that it isn't this fixed thing, it's this fluid thing that can always be changing and you can always be exploring and experimenting. And so start there, start by enjoying the questioning phase.
01:00:16
Speaker
Yes. So I loved that. Do you want to talk about that a little? Yeah, I was just going to say I had a very similar experience to yours where I was like, I've got to make sense of this. I've got to come out. I've got to state it. I've got to understand myself. I've got to know what this means. And then when you do it, you're like, what if I'm wrong? What if it's something else? Blah, blah, blah. And I think we're so tied up into this idea that you come out and that's it. That's the end of the story instead of the beginning.
01:00:45
Speaker
We go, you know, I'm out now, I've done it. And I'm like, coming out is a lifelong process. You're going to meet people who don't know, and you've got to tell them. But also, stuff is going to change, right? Like, sexuality is not set in stone. You don't engrave it on the tombstone the second you say it out loud. It can change, and it can morph, and it can grow as you have more experiences. And yeah, very much like you, it was very much after I'd come out, I realized that looking back.
01:01:15
Speaker
and going, oh, like, actually, maybe it doesn't matter if I didn't have it all figured out. Because ultimately, I think that's the important thing. So any time I meet someone who's like, I think I might be bisexual, I'm not sure, and I'm like, well, embrace it.
01:01:32
Speaker
Say it. Put it on. See how it feels. It's like a t-shirt. Try it on. See if it fits. If it doesn't fit, try a different shirt. It's OK. And that's the advice I give to someone. I actually gave that advice to someone in person. I was at a panel on bisexuality. And afterwards, someone was talking to me. He was on a different panel. And they asked me that. And I was like, just give it a try. If it's not right, you can change it. Just give it a try.
01:02:00
Speaker
That was bisexual now. They gave it a try and they liked it. That's the way it goes sometimes.
01:02:07
Speaker
And to me, it's almost like no matter where you, quote, end up or whatever identity label you choose, to ask yourself these questions and actually think about your sexuality beyond a surface level at all is pretty cool and interesting and exciting. And so many people never do that. And so even if you are a straight person questioning something,
01:02:32
Speaker
Enjoy that questioning. That questioning is an interesting process in and of itself, and we should all do it even if you are straight, I think. Straight people are so scared to do it, honestly. They're like, no, my cushy little life, don't take it. And I'm like, come on, just come out. It's fun. Come on, join us. I know it's so scary. It is so scary. I mean, I know because I was there. But now I'm like, come on, get over it. It's not that scary. But I know it can be scary.
01:03:06
Speaker
Stick around, there's a bit more of this episode coming up, but there's a lot more of this episode on Patreon. There's over 25 minutes extra with Vanit. We talked about dating and the huge variety of relationship styles among the bi community, why certain relationships can and should be considered a success, even if they eventually end.
01:03:28
Speaker
We talked about bi invisibility in mental and sexual health research, we touched on intersectionality with a focus on the asexual and aromantic spectrums, and we talked more about the challenges of writing bi books in general and what we'd like to see more of in the bi activist space. So head to patreon.com slash robert brooks cohen
01:03:49
Speaker
or click the link in the show notes, or on the link tree in all of my social media accounts, you'll get bonus content with Benite and every other episode, plus ad-free episodes and early access to everything. There's already a new episode up there featuring Kate Mangino. She's the author of a book called Equal Partners. We had a really fascinating discussion. It'll be out here in two weeks, but it's already up on Patreon.
01:04:13
Speaker
Plus, there's more content coming soon related to my book Bisexual Married Men, so check it out and thank you so much for your support. And now, here's a bit more with Vanit Mehta.
01:04:32
Speaker
Okay, last question, I promise. Your final chapter of the book is about pride. I think that will be a nice place to leave off today. And you know, a lot of the book is about the challenges of being by, and there are so many challenges, and especially still today, it's lagging behind other things in terms of acceptance and visibility.
Supporting Queer Bookshops and Final Thoughts
01:04:56
Speaker
You wrote, with everything I've discussed in this book, finding pride in your identity sounds like an insurmountable task. With the structures of monosexism, heteronormativity, phallocentrism, and more at play, leading to the erasure and bigotry that M-Spec people face, it is no wonder that M-Spec people struggle with coming out and feeling secure in their identity. It impacts every part of your life.
01:05:19
Speaker
et cetera, et cetera, going on and on. I mean, it's hard and there's a lot of challenges. So how do you find joy in your bisexuality these days? Where's the pride coming from? This will air after pride season. We're in pride season as we record this. So how do you find pride in your identity? It is so difficult. And honestly, I go to that chapter and even in that chapter, there's a lot of downers in there. There's a lot of downers in the book.
01:05:49
Speaker
And there's been a few people who have just like, how did you manage to put joy in your book? Because I read it and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, there's joy in it. Please tell me where. Because honestly, sometimes I look back at it and I'm like, God, my book is depressing. So I'm really glad we were to say they find joy.
01:06:09
Speaker
I think finding joy is really difficult by yourself and I think the easiest way to find joy in your identity is to find your community. I think community is so strong and it's so powerful and having that community around you
01:06:26
Speaker
can really help you feel less alone, can help you feel more secure, can help you make friends, help you in so many different ways, help you feel better, help you feel bisexuality is okay.
01:06:47
Speaker
I think that that is, for me, the strongest thing that always helps me find pride is having my community around me. It's having friends like Lo, who is such an incredible activist, even working in the community
01:07:05
Speaker
like helping other people helped me find pride in my own identity. Writing the book helped me find pride in my identity because I was not only seeing myself in it, but I was hoping these other people, because other people, when they were responding for my book, they were like, actually writing that all out was really cathartic. It really helped me get a lot of stuff out. It really lifted something off me.
01:07:33
Speaker
And that's something that writing always does for me is I like write out my feelings and each time I'm like feeling a certain way. I'm just like, let me just take it out of my brain and just on paper and it's out and it helps so much. So yeah, I think for me, the biggest way I find pride is having my community around me.
01:07:57
Speaker
I love that. I love that. I mean, you can't sort of fix all the challenges at once, but you can make them easier by being around other people who get it, and you can find joy and pride in all the wonderful parts of bisexuality when you have people to share it with, I think. That's so true. Having my community in my found family has really helped me be me more than I've ever been me in the past.
01:08:24
Speaker
and I think that that's true for a lot of people. I'm so glad to hear that and I'm so glad you had such catharsis writing the book and as I did too, I mean I learned so much writing mine and hearing the stories that people were sharing. I'm so excited for everyone to read your book, it's going to be so great. Yeah, me too and the same as you said,
01:08:46
Speaker
everyone who shared their stories with me had some kind of catharsis too. I feel like just talking about it kind of helped them connect and work through stuff too. And I can't wait for them to read each other's stories. I can't wait for you all to read all of it. And I can't wait for you all to read Vinit's book if you haven't already. You should have by now, but if you haven't,
01:09:25
Speaker
I really recommend, if you do have a local queer bookshop, go to them first. I always love saying to people, support a queer bookshop. You can also message me and I can always post you a link if I can find one. You can find me on social media at Nintendo Mad 888 or just Google my name because my name is very unique is what I've learned. There's only one other person who's like,
01:09:33
Speaker
you can pick it up wherever books are sold or do you have a website or something?
01:09:48
Speaker
Vice President at like Tata Communications and he must be so angry that he got such a good position in a job and I overshadowed it. But if you can't find a queer bookshop that's not available to you. Stuff like Barnes and Noble, Waterstones, whatever your big bookshop is or Amazon is also available. But support queer bookshops.
01:10:12
Speaker
Awesome. Well, the book is Bisexual Men Exist, a handbook for bisexual, pansexual, and M-Spec men. There it is right there. And thank you so much, Vernit, for coming back on Two Bye, guys, and talking about it, and talking about all this other stuff, too. Thank you so much for having me. It was so lovely to speak to you again. See you again in season nine when the next book comes out. You and Lo can come back. Oh my god, absolutely, please.
01:10:44
Speaker
2 by Guys is produced and edited by me, Rob Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our logo art is by Caitlin Weinman, our music is by Ross Mincer, we are supported by the Gotham, and we are part of the Zencaster Creator Network. Use promo code 2 by Guys to get 30% off. Thanks for listening to 2 by Guys.